In the interests of open disclosure...

[Ultimatewingchun]

...I would like to share these new chi sao training vids I just did a few days ago with some of my students.

Please watch them sequentially: 1,2,3 etc...

And there will be more coming wherein I'll show applications/translations of what's in the chi sao drills to actual fighting.

And the hard contact sparring video I promised recently on a different thread is also coming in March.

AND I WANT TO ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO SHARE WHAT THEY DO WITH VIDS OF THEIR OWN.


http://www.youtube.com/SifuParlati

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you ever tried to apply chi sao with different "hands" or VS different systems?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, a few times. Quite a long time ago, actually. I prefer to spar when working out with guys from other systems.

My view about chi sao is that it's nothing more than a drill, albeit a very good one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, a few times. Quite a long time ago, actually. I prefer to spar when working out with guys from other systems.

My view about chi sao is that it's nothing more than a drill, albeit a very good one.

Oh I agree, on all points.
When I first started WC, Sifu Chan was delighted to have a BB in Karate and former Boxer for his people to spar with.

[taojkd]

With regards to vid #2. Are you actively going from Bong to Tan? Or is your partner applying pressure to push you to bong to tan? I cant tell from the vid.

I was shown in one wc system they start out having the Bong/Tan person be active and the fook person follows (in the beginning of learning double arm chi sao) and in another system it was the Fook Sao person who applies pressure to push the person from Tan to Bong and vice versa and the Bong/Tan Person is following the low/high Fook (mid/high?).

Both said that after awhile its more mutual, but in terms of teaching i was curious which you are doing?

On Vid#3. Good explanation of forward energy using the entire body not just the arms.

On Vid #7 when he pushes up on your fook sao, i see you call it Huen Sao. i was shown that this is called Kow(kau sao) from the dummy. Nonetheless, i love that reaction :)

On Vid #8. I like how you add the footwork into the chi sao.

Question on Vid 10. The first elbow strike from your parnters bong sao. Why not bong sao and shift to the outside of his elbow strike rather than try to slow his elbow down with the lan sao and back up?
As for the elbow from the Fook, i like the notion of getting to his outside, but couldnt you also just punch?

Question on Vid 13: When you mean "random" is that random attacks from the previous vids only? Personally, i dont like completely "random" chi sao. It just degrades into patty cake. I do like that even though its "random" there is structure to it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"With regards to vid #2. Are you actively going from Bong to Tan? Or is your partner applying pressure to push you to bong to tan? I cant tell from the vid."


***YES, I'm actively going from bong to tan.

...........................................


"Question on Vid 10. The first elbow strike from your partners bong sao. Why not bong sao and shift to the outside of his elbow strike rather than try to slow his elbow down with the lan sao and back up?"


***HARD to step to the outside of an elbow strike that's coming down at you from an angle; and the backing up is giving wise respect to the power that an elbow strike with body motion behind it can have - but the lan sao and the wu/lop behind the lan allows me to "stick" to his arm and start controlling that side of his body.

..............................................


"Question on Vid 13: When you mean 'random' is that random attacks from the previous vids only? Personally, I dont like completely 'random' chi sao. It just degrades into patty cake. I do like that even though its 'random' there is structure to it.


***THAT'S right. Random from previous vids only. And yes, it turns into random chi sao but with some structure behind it. This way you avoid making chi sao into some sort of a "sparring" match - which it's not. Chi sao is chi sao - and sparring is sparring.

[taojkd]

***HARD to step to the outside of an elbow strike that's coming down at you from an angle;

So the elbow is coming from outside in than straight over the top. Gotcha. Yeah, tough to try to get to outside then.


***THAT'S right. Random from previous vids only. And yes, it turns into random chi sao but with some structure behind it. This way you avoid making chi sao into some sort of a "sparring" match - which it's not. Chi sao is chi sao - and sparring is sparring.

Agreed. 100%.

Very nice vids.

[omarthefish]

It's good that you encouraged us to watch them in sequence. It clarifies what's going on. The drills are dead. They seem to be demonstrations of ideas more than actual drills.

It doesn't really start to get interesting untill #6. The previous 5 feel like they are just demonstrating the basic mechanical structure of chi sau. Number 6 starts to introduce a couple of ideas but I wonder why you have the students make such classic mistakes. They are mistakes that are extremely typical of most fighters and they make sense to demo in the sense that it's good to show how to capitalize on them but I think it might be more educational for your students if you made the mistakes so that they could learn to see why they are mistakes. As it is (up to clip 6 anyways) the drill seems to be encouraging the students to chase the hands. You refer to it in the clip as "pushing off the line" which is true but rather than having them push off the line and show how to take back the center, I think it may be more valuable to for you as an instructor to push off the line and give them chances to capitalize.

Really, each example or pushing off the line that I saw in that clip was also an example of chasing hands. Isn't Chum Kiu supposed to teach something about that?

For instance, at 20 seconds in, the first example you give in the clip, why would he want to use the fuk sau to push across the line. The fuk sau should simply follow the line to your face which then, in turn, forces you to bong sau. If he pushes the fuk sau across the line he gets an elbow to the face as in biu ji (the form, not the techique)

One last note is that IMHO, the fingers are limp and that suggests that biu ji needs to be drilled more. The energy does not extend all the way to the fingertips for either of you in this particular set of videos.

p.s. I thoght 7 was better in that respect

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . AND I WANT TO ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO SHARE WHAT THEY DO WITH VIDS OF THEIR OWN.
Ok, I will. Here's a clip from a Milwaukee seminar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FbRfyWx1uE

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...but I wonder why you have the students make such classic mistakes. They are mistakes that are extremely typical of most fighters..." (omar)


***HA! I didn't make them (or ask them)...they just made mistakes. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chasing hands is one of the "curse" of Chi sao.

[omarthefish]

"...but I wonder why you have the students make such classic mistakes. They are mistakes that are extremely typical of most fighters..." (omar)


***HA! I didn't make them (or ask them)...they just made mistakes. :)

As a teacher, one way to help them out of those habits is to reverse things. You sometimes have to feed them the mistakes on purpose. Sometimes you have to even pause and point out the mistake you are making and give them a little help capitalizing. If you present the mistakes from both perspectives the reason why they are wrong becomes clearer and I think it is easier to unlearn them.

"Chasing hands" is a human habit that goes beyong WC. It's something that we absolutely depend on for certain things in Taiji. When the human body contacts another person in a MA context, it's extremely instinctive to push back. You think you are pushing towards the person but in reality you are just pushing back towards the point of contact. That's one reason why we train following and listening so extensively. It's really hard to learn to hear what vector you are actually pushing on. I often like to pause and offer resistance to a push specifically in order to "shine a light" on the interaction, to ask things like, "Why are you pushing over that way. I'm over here...."

That's what I saw in your student a lot in clip 6. Why push across the line? He's over there...

Instead of dropping down and coming around at him like a one-deceive (fencing term), maybe resist his push a little and just point out what he's doing. Point out that you are over there and not off the center-line somewhere to his right.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Why push across the line?

For the very reason that was also demoed in that vid. In a real situation, you may throw a punch and the guy takes it off the line...

either the way it was done in the vid (he pushed it across by extending his arm), or perhaps a boxer type might cover up with a block and push your punch across the line with his less extended cover (as he slightly turns his body)...

and you have to return to the line.

Because if you don't, his covering hand/arm can strike back at you on the same (or close to the same) line you were just punching on.

[omarthefish]

If you throw a punch and "the guy" takes it off the line...

...the "the guy" made a mistake. It's a bad habit (from a WC perspective) and should be corrected. That example doesn't really argue that sometimes you should push off the line. It's just an example showing how it happens. If you get pushed off, then it wasn't really your choice was it? But beyond that, the distinction I am trying to make is more subtle. When "the guy" takes your punch off the line, what happened to his punch? Or to his blocking hand for that matter? Or was it a slapping parry? At the end of the motion that took you off the line did the guy end up also off the line? Or was he on the line but with his pressure aiming off the line? Or did he just "take" the line away from you and you got pushed off the line while he remains on it and barreling down it? Or did he reposition the line so that you got taken off it without even moving?

Of all of these possibilities, only a couple are really in keeping with WC tactics.

Properly played, pushing the hand across the line with the lower fuk sau makes no sense. He's on top and on the inside so he should just "punch" at the face with the fuk sau which is why you have to bong sau in response.

Now granted, you did open the clip saying that you were going to be teaching the importance of taking back the line. I don't deny that. This is more of a teaching philosophy. I think that if the focus is more clearly placed on hitting the guy and less on holding the line, you will find the line organically. The line is just a means to an end. The important thing is not the line; it is what the line gives you---right of way. (another fencing analogy)

[Tom Kagan]

Victor,

I haven't gone through them, but are any of these actual ChiSao or is it a bunch of talk about ChiSao?

[taojkd]

I think the point of this, and feel free to correct me if i'm wrong Victor, is that "the guy" is doing something "wrong" from a WC perspective for the benefit of his training partner. In other words, i give a trigger (whether it be within the scope of WC or not) and the other person should react properly to the trigger.

"The guy" is training Victor.

Personally i like doing chi sao with that intent. Not competitive, but one person gives a given set of triggers and attacks (whether it is in the scope of WC or not) and the other person needs to learn to react appropriately to those triggers. Less ego involved in that kind of training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's chi sao, Tom. :rolleyes:

...................................


And yes, taojkd...you got it right.

[Tom Kagan]

It's chi sao, Tom. :rolleyes:


... skimmed through the first three, no ChiSao yet. ... skimmed the last one, some light stuff between you taking it pretty easy on someone of obvious lesser skill.

While I do appreciate the effort it took for you to put this together and also you putting yourself out there to stand the test of public scrutiny from a peer review and also the peanut gallery, let's just say I was hoping for something else.

I'll put your stuff on my list of things to watch whenever I get around to it, but I'd be hard pressed for a reason to have the rest of this jump the queue and them come up with any questions or comments for you. Sorry, I felt you were also looking for something else from me.

[Knifefighter]

10+ clips of chi sao and zero sparring... um, OK.

You don't see the problem with that type of training?

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

Some of my Chi Sao clips -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPOlQyO6jkA&feature=related

My best

Alan

[Ultimatewingchun]

"... skimmed through the first three, no ChiSao yet. ... skimmed the last one, some light stuff between you taking it pretty easy on someone of obvious lesser skill." (Tom Kagan)


***A PERFECT EXAMPLE of the kind of attitude about chi sao that I've been talking about for years now on this forum. And I say this with authority because I spent 8 years training under the same instructor as Tom Kagan did (Moy Yat)...

although Tom went to train with Moy Yat some years after I left to become William Cheung's student in TWC.

And that attitude is the following:

CHI SAO IS BASICALLY THE END-ALL-AND-BE-ALL OF WING CHUN TRAINING.

The phrase "taking it pretty easy on someone of lessor skill" clearly suggests that Tom thinks that chi sao should be a rough and tumble "match" of some kind. Which is understandable because there was basically NO REAL SPARRING going on in Moy Yat's school...

just endless hours of forms and chi sao...and more chi sao...and more chi sao...and some wooden dummy...and then more chi sao, etc.

Which is why John Cheng and myself decided to get together privately (at my suggestion) and train once a week doing full contact sparring with protective gear back in 1979.

The same John Cheng (Moy 4) who walked into Danny Inosanto's school one Monday night at 6:00 pm (after John's employer at the time sent John to California for a week on a business trip)....

and was invited to participate in Dan's JKD class every night that week.

And the same John Cheng who impressed Dan so much WITH HIS SPARRING ABILITY WHILE USING WING CHUN that Dan now wanted to meet Moy Yat - and promptly paid Moy's plane fare to come out to California...

and the same Dan Inosanto who then came to NYC a few months later and stayed a week at John's house in order to help celebrate the grand opening of Moy Yat's new Chinatown school.

AND THE SAME JOHN CHENG WHO CAME BACK FROM THAT FIRST TRIP to California and told me that if it wasn't for our private sparring workouts none of this probably would ever have happened...

and the same Dan Inosanto who very shortly after coming to NYC ended his relationship with Moy Yat (yes, Dan paid Moy some money because he now wanted to learn some wing chun after seeing what John could do)...

but soon discovered that there was quite a dis-connect between what John could do and what was being taught in Moy Yat's school.

Moral of the story?

Chi sao is chi sao and Sparring is sparring.

And this is the problem with tons of wing chun, even today, February 2009.

People still don't get it. Chi sao is a training drill.

AND NOTHING MORE.

And in fact is just preparation for the most important aspect of all martial arts training: SPARRING....(and competitive rolling, for those who also understand the importance of that).

[Knifefighter]

The same John Cheng (Moy 4) who walked into Danny Inosanto's school one Monday night at 6:00 pm (after John's employer at the time sent John to California for a week on a business trip)....

and was invited to participate in Dan's JKD class every night that week.

And the same John Cheng who impressed Dan so much WITH HIS SPARRING ABILITY WHILE USING WING CHUN that Dan now wanted to meet Moy Yat - and promptly paid Moy's plane fare to come out to California....
I'm not sure whether or not Dan was impressed, but if he's the guy I'm thinking about, I know the guys who sparred him weren't impressed.

[Tom Kagan]

The phrase "taking it pretty easy on someone of lessor skill" clearly suggests that Tom thinks that chi sao should be a rough and tumble "match" of some kind.

I'd say that's a pretty big leap to suggest what I'm thinking, Victor. I've said nothing regarding what ChiSao should or should not be.

ChiSao isn't a match; it is form of practice. But what I've skimmed thus far is not at all what I'm looking for within the queue of things on which I find compelling enough on which to comment or ask questions. That's all there is to my posts in this thread: nothing more, nothing less.

Feel free to talk about whatever subject you wish. But don't put words in my mouth. And, stop treating every little thing which doesn't quite fit your current thoughts on which you want to express as an offense. Otherwise, I'll just write off your writings and videos as the rantings of an attention ***** regardless of any merit which might contained within the morass.

[omarthefish]

Hi Guys

Some of my Chi Sao clips -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPOlQyO6jkA&feature=related

My best

Alan

Very nice.

Do you ever play a lighter more technical game as well? Most of the WC people I know start off similar to your video but eventually develop a very different sort of game. They almost always play it super heavy for at least the first 3 years and only play light after they've built up some serious hitting power.

btw,

That second clip made the point I was trying to make earlier regarding the clips by "Ultimatewingchin". It was hard to explain in text:

For instance, at 20 seconds in, the first example you give in the clip, why would he want to use the fuk sau to push across the line. The fuk sau should simply follow the line to your face which then, in turn, forces you to bong sau. If he pushes the fuk sau across the line he gets an elbow to the face as in biu ji (the form, not the techique)

Your example in the second clip regarding the pak sau is exactly what I was trying to figure out how to explain.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Feel free to talk about whatever subject you wish. But don't put words in my mouth." (Tom Kagan)


***SORRY, Tom...but I'm going to have to call bull5hit on this.

You put the words in your own mouth, and here they are:

"...some light stuff between you taking it pretty easy on someone of obvious lesser skill."

WHICH OBVIOUSLY MEANS THAT YOU WOULD PREFER TO SEE SOME HEAVY STUFF GOING ON BETWEEN TWO GUYS GOING HARD ON EACH OTHER WITH AT LEAST THE SAME APPROXIMATE HIGHER SKILLS.

And now you're trying to tell us with a straight face that this isn't the description of some kind of competitive match ???!!! :rolleyes:

[Tom Kagan]

If you instead put up a dozen or so videos of the steps and phases of an actual match culminating with you KTFOing a scrub, I would have had pretty much the same reaction if I wanted to see a match.

Five minutes of ChiSao between your students just practicing normally and forgetting about the camera would have told me everything I wanted to know about your ChiSao that I feel I could gather about it from video. Any more would actually require spending a significant amount of time with you. But what you want me to watch is you trying to TEACH ChiSao across the internet. That's not what I'm interested in watching right now or commenting on... and that says nothing about you, the subject matter, or your ability to teach.

Interpret my words any way you want. But if you start speaking FOR ME I'm going to make it clear every single time that you don't have a clue when it comes to REPRESENTING ME on a given subject.

[clam61]

one thing i notice in SO many chi sao videos i see...even when the sifu does it...i often see the center is exposed. the elbow is not protecting the center

[Ultimatewingchun]

First of all, Tom..I don't "want" you to watch anything. Secondly, it was described on the first post of this thread as a series of chi sao TRAINING vids I decided to make for my students - and that I'm now sharing that with whoever else would like to see them.

And again, I didn't speak for you...

you spoke for yourself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am a tad confused, Vic tor made it clear that they are Chi sao Training videos, not chi sao competion ones.
It's pretty clear on the clips that its for beginners and such.
Almost an "intro" to Chi sao...

[taojkd]

But what I've skimmed thus far is not at all what I'm looking for within the queue of things on which I find compelling enough on which to comment or ask questions.

Tom, I don't mean to insinuate anything as I am genuinely curious, but can you post or PM me chi sao vids that you do find compelling and interesting?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Paul, (sanjuro)...

I noticed that you posted this on another thread:

"When I trained Moy Yat we did lots of full contact sparring and being one of the few with a varied MA background, I was used to 'test' WC on."


***I TAKE IT you trained with one of Moy Yat's students. Which one?

[Tom Kagan]

First of all, Tom..I don't "want" you to watch anything. Secondly, it was described on the first post of this thread as a series of chi sao TRAINING vids I decided to make for my students - and that I'm now sharing that with whoever else would like to see them.

And again, I didn't speak for you...

you spoke for yourself.

This is what you said:


The phrase "taking it pretty easy on someone of lessor skill" clearly suggests that Tom thinks that chi sao should be a rough and tumble "match" of some kind.

I didn't say that at all.

"Light ChiSao" means LIGHT CHISAO. You decide that mean I think ChiSao is some "rough and tumble match".

You could have very well said everything you wanted in your the post from which I quoted above. You didn't. You decided to speak for me an announce to the world I think ChiSao should be a certain way. I didn't say squat about what ChiSao should be. I gave a description of your videos.


I am a tad confused, Vic tor made it clear that they are Chi sao Training videos, not chi sao competion ones.
It's pretty clear on the clips that its for beginners and such.
Almost an "intro" to Chi sao...

I agree completely with your assessment. But I asked beforehand whether this was talk about ChiSao or ChiSao. Victor directly responded to me saying it was ChiSao. It wasn't it was talk (albeit of the better kind) and a little bit of ChiSao. And what is 'for beginners and such' and 'almost an "intro" to chi sao', if not ChiSao lite™? And where did I ever suggest ChiSao should any sort of a competition?


Victor,

As I said before, I appreciate the effort it took for you to put this together and put it up. And you can say whatever you want regarding your own time of training with Moy Yat or even use that to infer information about my own training. But if you decide to try and tell others what I think about a subject, that's bull****. I'm right here, able to post for myself. If you talk for me, we have a problem.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, you have a problem alright, Tom...and I'm not the least bit interested in it at this point.

[Ultimatewingchun]

There are some folks on this forum who will never back off an incorrect position, idea, argument, etc. regardless of how clear, logical, and precise the evidence against their position, claims, and ideas might be.

So I've decided that I need to do at least one more chi sao vid - aside from the ones I mentioned wherein applications/translations of chi sao to fighting are demoed.

An advanced chi sao at random vid done with someone of much higher skills than the guy on the vid#13...wherein we will really "go at it" for a minute or two.

And then perhaps we can move on from the valley where this thread seems to have degenerated to. :cool:

[Matrix]

"... skimmed through the first three, no ChiSao yet. ... skimmed the last one, some light stuff between you taking it pretty easy on someone of obvious lesser skill." (Tom Kagan)


***A PERFECT EXAMPLE of the kind of attitude about chi sao that I've been talking about for years now on this forum. And I say this with authority because I spent 8 years training .......Victor,
I think your point may be better made without the preamble on lineage bashing. Tom speaks for himself, as you and I speak for ourselves. Yes, we have obviously been heavily influenced these things, but in the end our comments are a reflection of our own personal POV.
For example, Tom's comments do not agree with my understanding and yet we are both the same lineage. So please, just focus on the point you want to make and leave the politics out of it. :)

Thank You,
Bill

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's fair, Bill.

And even with what went on at Moy Yat's school, I stayed there for 8 years, all the way to 1983. Because I respected his knowledge of wing chun and wanted to learn as much as I could from the man.

And paid a spontaneous visit to Moy Yat one weekday afternoon about 10 years after I left, just to say hi. We had a nice chat. He started me on my wing chun journey, and I still value quite a few things that I learned from him - including some issues having nothing to do with martial art training.

Enough said.

[Vajramusti]

I am far removed from both Moy Yat and William Cheung brands of wing chun but I am interested in what first generation Ip man student lines typically do. In keeping with the underlying curiosity
about other lines, I have stayed on the forum to date and worked out with and met and communicated with people from major lineages-mostly Ip man but some from other non IM lineages as well.
I appreciated the time and effort that it took Victor to put his vids up.I was going to comment and chat but decided it was not worth the hassle- given the turn of the thread. On Moy Yat he may made the point in a different way but his comment on Moy Yat's school not doing any sparring was basically a factual issue- true or not?.
I have met some Moy yat students- here, there and in Toronto so I was curious who Sanjuro
sparred with.
I thought that Tom was somewhat catty with his comments and Victor responded in kind.I think backing off and responding in civil fashion would get us further.
If I met Victor, Bill or Sanjuro or Tom in person I would be happy to compare POVs in a non threatening way.

I have "sparred" much with gloves and have had serious altercations without them...but FWIW,
I think that chi sao, advanced footwork, weapons work, lop sao.chis sao in all their variations, man sao, gor sao and lat sao is great way to develop martial skills specially if you have access to good observers who can spot possible problems.It stands you in good stead not just in the wc world but with respect to folks from any style as well. We don't really always see ourselves and egos can get in the way of our progress in wing chun.

There it be- the way of so many threads. Could be the nature of the medium.

PS. Too bad that chi sao king left the forum. Tempting to follow his exit. Different lineage but he made a real effort to communicate without being catty, sarcastic or ego driven.


Joy Chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nice post, Joy. And I agree with your assessment about the importance of being civil and in being willing to learn a different take on things by comparing notes - and of the value in chi sao, lop sao, gor sao, weapons training, etc. These things are excellent training tools.

[Matrix]

That's fair, Bill.

................................

Enough said.Victor,
Thank you for being so understanding.
I appreciate the consideration.

Peace,
Bill

[Matrix]

If I met Victor, Bill or Sanjuro or Tom in person I would be happy to compare POVs in a non threatening way.Joy,
I would be honoured to discuss these things with you. You are always a gentleman, and I appreciate that.
For the record, Victor and I met in person a few years ago, and he was a very generous host. We enjoyed a few hours of training and a meal. There was never any tension, just sharing of ideas in a very good natured way. At least that's how I remember it.
To me that's what Wing Chun should be. If we take a position, it should stand on its own merit. If we shared ideas instead of trying to alienate each other, I think we would all be better for it. Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I think we would be a stronger art today if we focused on what we have in common instead of driving wedges between families.

Bill

[Tom Kagan]

Victor: If you are 'not the least bit interested' in this problem then how I handle it in large part depends on whether you have any concern for my opinion of you overall. Do you? If you do then the solution is simple.

[Tom Kagan]

taojkd: It may very well be these videos are 'interesting and compelling'. The fact that I'm not interested or compelled to examine them in any detail at the moment over all the rest of what I have queued is not commentary on whatever their contents may contain.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Great explainations dont have time to watch them all but 1-3 are excellent.


Phil- your seminar, i give ***** you absolutely remind me of my sigung move just like him, i bet touchin hands with you is like wet concret it just sucks you and you dont remember anything after that lol

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Victor,

I think you are setting a good example here.

No matter how good or bad something is, there will always be people people agreeing or disagreeing with your methods/teaching. At least you have the heart to put your stuff out there for the world to see. For that bro, you have my respect.

Your videos also present discussion points for everyone, and that's a good thing; as long as we act civilized and discuss in an objective and scientific manner.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Ah, what the hack.... let a Tai Chi guy join in the fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-apBC-GrHNo

Cheers,
John

[Ultimatewingchun]

Interesting video, John.

It's good to see some tai chi fighting applications. Although I don't agree with some of the premises you make on that vid, what I found most interesting was the similarity between what you were doing, ie.- covering his lead elbow while striking him with the other hand (in order to block out his other arm from getting into the game)...while positioning your legs/body to the outside...

and what we do in TWC.

And I liked the basic premise of trying to jam him up with your lead arm/shoulder/whole body - thereby crashing his structure. There are times when this kind of thing can work well.

And the video on your website entitled "DOUBLE AXIAL ROTATION" is also good.

Thanks for the contribution.

[Phil Redmond]

Ah, what the hack.... let a Tai Chi guy join in the fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-apBC-GrHNo

Cheers,
John
I liked his comment about fighting a stronger person down the middle around 1:07. He chose to fight on the 'blind side".
Hmmm that sounds familiar...;)

[Yoshiyahu]

I guess that shows how all styles interelate...pretty good stuff...

[clam61]

except that he called chung choi aka chain punch "silly stuff". while i do agree that it is overused, its not silly! :eek:

[imperialtaichi]

except that he called chung choi aka chain punch "silly stuff". while i do agree that it is overused, its not silly! :eek:

Ah, wrong choice of words, my apologies ;)

[Phil Redmond]

except that he called chung choi aka chain punch "silly stuff". while i do agree that it is overused, its not silly! :eek:
I think he was referring to standing in front of any larger person and. throwing punches and not the chung choy in particular

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Paul, (sanjuro)...

I noticed that you posted this on another thread:

"When I trained Moy Yat we did lots of full contact sparring and being one of the few with a varied MA background, I was used to 'test' WC on."


***I TAKE IT you trained with one of Moy Yat's students. Which one?

Nelson Chan and Sunny Tang.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am far removed from both Moy Yat and William Cheung brands of wing chun but I am interested in what first generation Ip man student lines typically do. In keeping with the underlying curiosity
about other lines, I have stayed on the forum to date and worked out with and met and communicated with people from major lineages-mostly Ip man but some from other non IM lineages as well.
I appreciated the time and effort that it took Victor to put his vids up.I was going to comment and chat but decided it was not worth the hassle- given the turn of the thread. On Moy Yat he may made the point in a different way but his comment on Moy Yat's school not doing any sparring was basically a factual issue- true or not?.
I have met some Moy yat students- here, there and in Toronto so I was curious who Sanjuro
sparred with.
I thought that Tom was somewhat catty with his comments and Victor responded in kind.I think backing off and responding in civil fashion would get us further.
If I met Victor, Bill or Sanjuro or Tom in person I would be happy to compare POVs in a non threatening way.

I have "sparred" much with gloves and have had serious altercations without them...but FWIW,
I think that chi sao, advanced footwork, weapons work, lop sao.chis sao in all their variations, man sao, gor sao and lat sao is great way to develop martial skills specially if you have access to good observers who can spot possible problems.It stands you in good stead not just in the wc world but with respect to folks from any style as well. We don't really always see ourselves and egos can get in the way of our progress in wing chun.

There it be- the way of so many threads. Could be the nature of the medium.

PS. Too bad that chi sao king left the forum. Tempting to follow his exit. Different lineage but he made a real effort to communicate without being catty, sarcastic or ego driven.


Joy Chaudhuri

To me, MY WC is a constant evolution, as I change, it changes.
My time in Moy Yat was great, I certainly wasn't their typical practioner having come in already with extensive MA and fighting experience, but I was still able to get things I needed and wanted from WC.
There is no need for egos or the professing of the "REAL WC" that plagues most TCMA systems.

[Vajramusti]

There is no need for egos or the professing of the "REAL WC" that plagues most TCMA systems.
(sanjuro ronin)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree on the egos- I try to work on my own- a work in progress.

The internet is full of a lot of "professing".

"TCMA" is a broad subject- tough enough to generalize about wing chun.

However. FWIW there seems ro be a lot of teaching things by people who haven't learned what they are teaching.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is no need for egos or the professing of the "REAL WC" that plagues most TCMA systems.
(sanjuro ronin)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree on the egos- I try to work on my own- a work in progress.

The internet is full of a lot of "professing".

"TCMA" is a broad subject- tough enough to generalize about wing chun.

However. FWIW there seems ro be a lot of teaching things by people who haven't learned what they are teaching.

joy chaudhuri

This is all to true and I confess I have done my share of that :D
Sometimes we get carried away in out enthusiasm of "proclaiming the truth" and forget that OUR truth may not be anyone else truth.
Certainly we all travel different paths.
I came into WC already with experience in Hung Kuen, a BB in Kyokushin, Judo and having boxing as an amateur and done rather well.
How could me WC be like someone with NO PRIOR MA experience?
It couldn't be and it still can't be.
My ego tends to be a tad "large" at times too, a "plague" of being a MA it seems ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

...Don't know who these guys are, but I think it's a good vid. (And very similar to some of the things we do in my advanced class).

You might want to watch it with the sound off, btw. The music is very distracting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pz70iOdG9M&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

...Don't know who these guys are, but I think it's a good vid. (And very similar to some of the things we do in my advanced class).

You might want to watch it with the sound off, btw. The music is very distracting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pz70iOdG9M&feature=related

Not much to critique in that clip.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What I liked was the boxing entries to close range and the way they used clinch work as part of their chi sao.

[Phil Redmond]

I've noticed that there are lots of vids with people doing double arm chi sao.
Cross or parallel arm chi sao is more like what a real fight will be like.

[sihing]

I've noticed that there are lots of vid with people doing double arm chi sao.
Cross or parallel arm chi sao is more like what a real fight will be like.

True statement Phil. If anything, there would only be one to one arm contact in a fight, not usually two on two contact. In my experience, dbl arm teachs (among other things) good facing habits, because when using both arms simultaneously you have to have be facing the opponent relatively square.

If your tan/fok or bong/fok have equal pressure going towards someone's COM then you will have to have good facing, especially when you get into the moving drills.

In the WSL line, we have a Seung Ma/Toi Ma drill done from Poon Sau rolling, it is basically a forward/backward moving drill up and down the floor. What I have done, just to add some more realizm for the students, is to take this drill and apply it from a X-armed wrist on wrist position, where one partner retreats and leads the drill. The other guy has to follow and when the guy retreating switches leads, the one following has to as well while maintaining good facing and distancing. Things can be then added in whenever the retreating guy switches, and also the one following should learn to follow up with strikes on each switch.

I may make a vid of it someday:)

James

[Yoshiyahu]

Other than static drills do you guys do freestyle techniques with cross arms and parallel arms.

[sihing]

Other than static drills do you guys do freestyle techniques with cross arms and parallel arms.

Only in the beginning are things a little "static". I'd rather use the word slower or more delibertate than "static", because no one should ever be static when practicing or fighting. Static to me means stationary, no movement or stiff, things one should never try be in combat.

Everything one drills in the VT cirriculum can be done in a more freestyle way, whether it is dan chi, or the lop sau drills or whatever. The thing is the person learning it has to have down what the drill is teaching you. No use doing the drill freestyle if you have no idea what it is trying to teach nor possess those skills. Drill, drill, then drill some more then test it out.

The thing with VT is that you pretty well need to train it with another VT guy to attain it's skills. In training there is no winning or losing, just the attainment of the skills it teaches, but somewhere along the way one must test themselves to see if this has happened. It is here that one can train in a more random way, but continuing to confine themselves within the VT system. After all of this is done then more random free sparring can take place, where the is no restriction on what one can use nor on the distance where one can start at (pre contact or contact range).

James

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you for your response.



Only in the beginning are things a little "static". I'd rather use the word slower or more delibertate than "static", because no one should ever be static when practicing or fighting. Static to me means stationary, no movement or stiff, things one should never try be in combat.

Everything one drills in the VT cirriculum can be done in a more freestyle way, whether it is dan chi, or the lop sau drills or whatever. The thing is the person learning it has to have down what the drill is teaching you. No use doing the drill freestyle if you have no idea what it is trying to teach nor possess those skills. Drill, drill, then drill some more then test it out.

The thing with VT is that you pretty well need to train it with another VT guy to attain it's skills. In training there is no winning or losing, just the attainment of the skills it teaches, but somewhere along the way one must test themselves to see if this has happened. It is here that one can train in a more random way, but continuing to confine themselves within the VT system. After all of this is done then more random free sparring can take place, where the is no restriction on what one can use nor on the distance where one can start at (pre contact or contact range).

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's plenty of parallel arm and cross arm chi drills in TWC, yes.

And I intend to post a vid about them on this thread in a few weeks.

[Yoshiyahu]

Does anyone have a video of heavy chi sau?

[Phil Redmond]

Does anyone have a video of heavy chi sau?

What's heavy chi sao?? If I get you right let me clear something up. Chi sao is just a sensitivty training exercise. If it gets "heavy" you might as well start sparring.

[Yoshiyahu]

What's heavy chi sao?? If I get you right let me clear something up. Chi sao is just a sensitivty training exercise. If it gets "heavy" you might as well start sparring.

Gung lik chi sau = heavy sticky hands to develop power

http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

look up Gung lik chi sau...


Additional sites that mention heavy chi sau

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.WingChunGlossary#G

http://www.rogersmart.com.au/terminology.htm



give me a second to tract down the other sites an lineage that mentions heavy chi sau?

[Phil Redmond]

Gung lik chi sau = heavy sticky hands to develop power

http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

look up Gung lik chi sau...


Additional sites that mention heavy chi sau

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.WingChunGlossary#G

http://www.rogersmart.com.au/terminology.htm



give me a second to tract down the other sites an lineage that mentions heavy chi sau?
OK, I used to do chi sau that way years ago. Now I don't. Once I feel heavy pressure I'm releasing and attacking. Different strokes for different folks.

[sihing]

Does anyone have a video of heavy chi sau?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLWWfZvaO4U&feature=related , this vid of Phillip Bayer has some "heavy" chi sau in it, with lots of lat sau jik chung.

I personally like rolling this way at times because it develops structure, and the ability to absorb/give pressure. Releasing and attacking is a good way as well, but you don't always want to run away from pressure when your structure is strong enough to be able to handle it. Economy of motion dictates that less is more, so if I am able to handle the heavy pressure, without the need to release and go on another angle (did this type of training for 18yrs), then why do so.

This is not about one way being superior to another, but having the ability to do both, with an adaptable framework at your disposal. I think the main difference in the approaches has to do with range and distance. TWC is a longer range WC system, most of the other WC lines function closer in, which will require a different type of structure/mechanic to function.

I like to think of it like the earthquake proof buildings in California. They had to design these buildings with the ability to adapt to an earthquake so it doesn't collapse at the slightest shaking. If your structure is stiff, or to loose, you won't be able to handle the slightest of pressure upon it. That inbetween point is where it is at, and is learned by more and more practice with a variety of practitioners:)

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I think the main difference in the approaches has to do with range and distance. TWC is a longer range WC system, most of the other WC lines function closer in, which will require a different type of structure/mechanic to function."


***DON'T be so sure about that, James...

I have a very unique experience with William Cheung. Once, during a private lesson (I was only his student about a year or so at the time)...I asked him to "check" my chi sao.

He took it as a challenge, which I really didn't mean it to be.

No, it wasn't the "longer range" chi sao at all. I must have gotten punched about 20 times, thrown all around the room, pressured up against a wall, and had my mouth bloodied.

[sihing]

"I think the main difference in the approaches has to do with range and distance. TWC is a longer range WC system, most of the other WC lines function closer in, which will require a different type of structure/mechanic to function."


***DON'T be so sure about that, James...

I have a very unique experience with William Cheung. Once, during a private lesson (I was only his student about a year or so at the time)...I asked him to "check" my chi sao.

He took it a challenge, which I really didn't mean it to be.

No, it wasn't the "longer range" chi sao at all. I must have gotten punched about 20 times, thrown all around the room, pressured up against a wall, and had my mouth bloodied.

Hi Vic,

Yes. I remember you mentioning about that chi sau session with him. Phil has a good clip of William from the early 80's doing some blindfold chi sau, from that I can see that he can chi sau from a closer in range (from his own biography he does admit to learning it for a few years). It's just from my experience in the TWC system, and from what I have seen promoted publicly that TWC is a bit more longer range than most of the other WC lines out there, which is why it includes things like exchange stepping and fighting from the blindside (which I use to love:)).

Just an opinion, of course I could be totally wrong:)

James

[Vajramusti]

A perfect example of the problems of inference- trying to understand motion from a word-
gung lik chi sao- is NOT fighting.
Its for attribute development and adjustment of structure. It is not the regular chi sao.
Context has much to do with meaning.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

A perfect example of the problems of inference- trying to understand motion from a word-
gung lik chi sao- is NOT fighting.
Its for attribute development and adjustment of structure. It is not the regular chi sao.
Context has much to do with meaning.

joy chaudhuri


Good post Joy,

A lot of people get it all twisted up just from a name, that’s pretty common with those of who don’t spin enough time researching what they’re doing (wing chun,) and just putting it out there…

That was something I use to do a lot in my first five years of training, back then; feeling good about something that I really didn’t have a strong grasp or understanding of… But I’ll say it anyway, wrong or not… (It’s human nature, I guess?)

Those kinds of mistakes should clear up over the years, if one is honest with himself.:o

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The thing with VT is that you pretty well need to train it with another VT guy to attain it's skills. In training there is no winning or losing, just the attainment of the skills it teaches, but somewhere along the way one must test themselves to see if this has happened. It is here that one can train in a more random way, but continuing to confine themselves within the VT system. After all of this is done then more random free sparring can take place, where the is no restriction on what one can use nor on the distance where one can start at (pre contact or contact range).

James

You make a very good point James, unfortunately too many get stuck in that WC VS WC phase for way to long, sometimes forever.

[Yoshiyahu]

Are you suggesting fighting with other Arts?



You make a very good point James, unfortunately too many get stuck in that WC VS WC phase for way to long, sometimes forever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you suggesting fighting with other Arts?

Of course, the only way to make your WC effective VS other systems is to fight other systems.

[t_niehoff]

Of course, the only way to make your WC effective VS other systems is to fight other systems.

You are only as good as your sparring partners. That sums it all up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are only as good as your sparring partners. That sums it all up.

In general I tend to agree, though I have seen some pretty crappy people that train with great fighters.
And of course the great ones are just that, Tyson had good partners, but no where near his level, hence he was a champion and they weren't, and that goes for almost all the other champions.
Though I am certin their sparring partners got much better fightign them.
Experience counts a lot too.

[t_niehoff]

In general I tend to agree, though I have seen some pretty crappy people that train with great fighters.
And of course the great ones are just that, Tyson had good partners, but no where near his level, hence he was a champion and they weren't, and that goes for almost all the other champions.
Though I am certin their sparring partners got much better fightign them.
Experience counts a lot too.

The point of the statement is that you can't develop signficant skills except by sparring with quality people. That is the only way to (fighting) skill development. Everything else is prep work. As we say here, "if you aren't fighting, you aren't training." But that's not enough: It's the good people that show you your mistakes, that press you and force you to grow, etc.

[hunt1]

Speaking only for myself. I learn best from getting hit. Of course when you get hit you need to stop, ask what the other person did then ask them to do it again and again until you figure out what is happening and how to deal with it.

Of course I am kind of slow and don't care about being hit or suplexed. Smarter folks catch on much quicker.