9, 18, 72, 108.

[Lugoman]

Why are so many techniques in the forms performed in 3's?

Is there any significance to the number 3 in Chinese culture?

[t_niehoff]

Why are so many techniques in the forms performed in 3's?

Is there any significance to the number 3 in Chinese culture?

It's not about numeral significance, in my view. Rather, when movements are repeated three times in the forms, those movements are being singled out as being of particular importance (in some way). For example, if you consider the movements repeated three times in the SNT, the fook sao (controlling bridge hand) and the tuet sao (freeing bridge hand), the form is representing the importance of controlling the opponent's bridge and not allowing your bridge to be controlled.

[anerlich]

From a Chimese Numerology website:

The number "3" is used many times in Chinese culture. The only reason that I can think of is because it is mentioned in the I Ching, pronounced E Ching. It stands for Heaven, Earth and Man. When we bow to offer incense, it is always done three times. In bonsai and ikebana, the patterns follow an irregular triangle to represent the trinity of heaven, earth and man.

By Don Gee
www.chcp.org


Might have something to do with it.

[duende]

From a Chimese Numerology website:

The number "3" is used many times in Chinese culture. The only reason that I can think of is because it is mentioned in the I Ching, pronounced E Ching. It stands for Heaven, Earth and Man. When we bow to offer incense, it is always done three times. In bonsai and ikebana, the patterns follow an irregular triangle to represent the trinity of heaven, earth and man.

By Don Gee
www.chcp.org


Might have something to do with it.

Otherwise known as Tin, Yan, and Dei respectively...

Nice one Anerlich

[CFT]

Going a bit off topic because of the bonsai and ikebana reference ... when displaying objects, it has been noted that groupings made up of odd numbers, e.g. 3, 5, 7 look better than even numbers of the same objects.

The thing is, the numbers 1-9 are quite common in kung fu terms.

1 - Yi Xian/ yat sin (one "centreline" is a particular WCK reference)
2 - Liangyi (the two poles - yin & yang)
4 - Sixiang (4 images)
5 - Wuxing (Five Elements)
6 - Liuhe / Luk Hop (6 Harmonies)
7 - Xixing (Seven Stars)
8 - Bagua (8 trigrams), Babu (8 Steps)
9 - Jiu Gong (Nine palaces)

[kj]

Adding a small nuance to what the others have said. While three can be taken literally, it can also suggest "many." My sibak explained it to me this way: When something is repeated 3 times in the sets as taught, do at least 3 and feel free to repeat as many more times as you wish.


Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Todai]

Adding a small nuance to what the others have said. While three can be taken literally, it can also suggest "many." My sibak explained it to me this way: When something is repeated 3 times in the sets as taught, do at least 3 and feel free to repeat as many more times as you wish.


Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Thats what we were always taught. My sifu acknowledged the mystical significance of 3, but says really you just need more than one.

[CFT]

Adding a small nuance to what the others have said. While three can be taken literally, it can also suggest "many." My sibak explained it to me this way: When something is repeated 3 times in the sets as taught, do at least 3 and feel free to repeat as many more times as you wish.Yes, sometimes my attention drifts and I wonder if it was 2 or 3? So I add another one to make sure!

[kj]

Yes, sometimes my attention drifts and I wonder if it was 2 or 3? So I add another one to make sure!

Ha ha. Yup, we've a running joke that when you learn Wing Chun you forget how to count to 3.

When you're really focused on what you're doing, it's easy to lose count. How great is that!? :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Lugoman]

Thanks for the replies all, I've learned some things from this thread.

I only lose count durring the tan/wu/fook sau part of SLM, when I do it slowly.

[Tom Kagan]

Let's look at this from a practical standpoint:


If you are going to give some indication of "repetition" (which is essentially, more than 2) If not 3 times, then how many? You pick.


If you are from Southern China living in a time of superstition and speaking Cantonese, you might as well pick a number which is a hom-onym for the word: "live". That's far more amusing than picking another number such as 4 - a hom-onym for the word: "death".

(Trivia: the count of "4" is used in my Baat Cham Doa set.)

[byond1]

I think Tom hit an important point, that 4 - 'Sae" was avoided due to it sounding like the word for kill - "Sart".

Here is some Food for thought though. Does the fact that somethings are repeated in Modern WCK, really mean they are "more important than other things". So the Fook is more important than the Tan? or Tut Sau is more important than the Punch? or the Concept represented in the Tut sau more important than the Core WCK concepts embodied within the punch? To me, that makes little sence. So pound for pound Huen Sau is the most important idea found in the forms? as its repeated the most?

The older versions of WCK you examine, you will see things, not simply repeated. THat actually is "wasted" band width. And for a system that talks so much about "Being the most efficient" - simply repeating something is goes against the essence of the system. And probably no more than superstition and for symetry, will things show up in groups of 3. And only in modern versions of the system are the simply repeated 3 times.

If we look at older WCK methods, that use San Sik methods of preservation, or even the older versions of the Hand Forms, we can see things are almost never repeated. They are "Re-iterated". And in San Sik, something is peformed one time. And than you train it as many times as you want. Or you have 3 differant motions linked together, such as Tan, Pak, Gan, that are repeated once in the San Sik form.

The face of WCK that we see today is differant than the face of WCK in the early 1900s. Which is differant to the face of WCK in the mid 1800s. In Fact WCK, in my understanding and research has gone through 6 or 7 differant dominant stages of evolution. The last 2 being H.K WCK, and then when H.K WCK made its way to America,Europe, and Canada. This is easy to understand though as the system is conceptual in nature. The Physical method of organizing material and preserving it, as well as manefesting the concepts for application, will change and grow, and is in the nature of the system to do so.

B

[Tom Kagan]

So the Fook is more important than the Tan? or Tut Sau is more important than the Punch? or the Concept represented in the Tut sau more important than the Core WCK concepts embodied within the punch? To me, that makes little sence. So pound for pound Huen Sau is the most important idea found in the forms? as its repeated the most?


I believe you may be doing too much thinking about it for your own good.


What needs more repetition is a question of what is believed to need more practice. It has nothing to do with the individual importance of a technique.

[mantis108]

From a Chimese Numerology website:

The number "3" is used many times in Chinese culture. The only reason that I can think of is because it is mentioned in the I Ching, pronounced E Ching. It stands for Heaven, Earth and Man. When we bow to offer incense, it is always done three times. In bonsai and ikebana, the patterns follow an irregular triangle to represent the trinity of heaven, earth and man.

By Don Gee
www.chcp.org



Might have something to do with it.

The Numerology study in Yijing does regard the number 3 as an important number. While it is true that it's a representation of Heaven, Earth and Human, there are a more to it then this explanation IMHO.

Lao Zi in Dao De Jing posits that Dao gives birth to one (1), one gives birth to two (2), two gives birth to three (3), and three gives birth to myriad of things (4).

0/1 -> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4/all things

Here One is the Taiji, 2 is the yin/yang or heaven and earth. 3 is Men (with Heaven and Earth). They are essentially one but also three which is a representation of the modes of time past, present and future. In our physical environment, there are 3 states of form - Solid, fluid, and Vapour/wind. Since water transforms back and forth with this three properties relative to temperature changes (fire). This is also the reason that Lao Zi held water in high regards. In the life process of a human being, we are conceived in the womb (water), and born as "solid" mass and ending with one final exhalation. Conventionally, the transformation of the water is usually represented by a circle (related to the both the number 3 and 6) within fire which is represented by equilateral triangel (with three 60 degree angles). BTW, this is why the goat capturing, horse stance or in a lotus seat position (triangle formed by the top of head and the feet/egs at a regualted distance) is most elemental in Kung Fu. By moving 3 times, we are mindful of the transformation within and without us. We can see why the mystics in India and China all value the number 3.

Just a thought.

Warm Regards

Mantis108

[uki]

in chinese martial arts(we'll call it kung fu here), the numbers 18,72, and 108 are a common occurence in relation to the number of techniques and methods in many particular styles... these numbers reduce themselves to the number 9, which represents change and is the number associated to the tiger... below are a few of the symbolic meanings each number in their respected order.

the number 9...


Number of the patience, the meditation.

Number of the harmony, it represents the inspiration and the perfection of the ideas.

It is the expression of "the power of the Holy Spirit", according to Etchegoyen.

Symbolize the plenitude of talents, the reward of the tests.

Symbol of the creation and the life as a rhythm and development.

As a product of 3 x 3, it is the expression of the perfection, the symbol of the virile power, in addition to be associated to the couple.

Nine is the number of the one who accomplishes the divine will. According to the Cabal, it is also the number of the achievement.

The freemasons have made it the eternal number of human immortality.

Being the last simple number, it is the number of finalization or finition; it is therefore the most complex, that marks the full lighting up of the numerical series.

This number was considered as sacred in Egypt and in Greece.

Number of the man, as a numeral symbol of his gestation (nine months).

Number symbolizing the nocturnal and terrestrial things, for the Aztecs.

Number of the hierarchy, represented by nine choruses of the Angels.

Represent the three divine manifestations in the three plans: world of the spirit, world of the soul, world of the matter, which gives a triple manifestations of Trinity (3 x 3).

Symbol of the multitude, and according to Parmenide, it concerns the absolute things and it is the symbol of the totality of the human being.

A favorable number, associate to the eternity.

The nine Choruses of the Angels:

Seraphes, angels of love and light;
Cherubs, angels of wisdom and intelligence;
Thrones, angels of force and life;
Dominations, angels of liberty;
Principalities, angels of eternity and memory;
Powers, angels of holiness;
Vertues, angels of humility;
Archangels, having for attribute the justice;
Ordinary angels, to which we attribute the innocence.


The nine days of retreat and prayers in a novena are sources of divine graces.

In the revelations received by Mary Jane of United States, the Lord says that there are nine degrees of prayers. The four firsts are the vocal prayer, the meditation, the affective prayer and the innate comtemplation. The last five are the types of the mystical prayer: the innate comtemplation, the quiet prayer, the prayer of union, the prayer of union in conformity, and the most mystical is the prayer of transforming union.

Jacques Paquette refers, in his book "Apocalypse: prophecies of the end of times", to nine kingdoms associating the 4th to the Roman empire 19 centuries ago, the Revelation of John speaks about it in the chapter 2 verse 40. The ninth universal empire, called also thousand years reign, corresponds to the New Jerusalem of the Revelation.

God spread many extraordinary graces on the Virgin Mary the nine days before the Annunciation, according to visions of Mary Agreda.

After the death of a Pope, we celebrate masses for the rest of his soul during nine days, with nine absolutions.

Nine was the name of the sacred mountain of the Sun, for the ancient Egyptians.

Some peoples believed that the Sky was divided into nine celestial levels. It was the case for the Buddhists and also for the last worshippers of Mithra.

The nine plains of the Chinese sky. The hall of the imperial throne was separated by nine gates from the rest of the palace and the book of Annals, named Chou-king, exposes the "Sublime Science" in nine rules. Also the Chinese prostrated 9 times in front of their emperor.

There was nine gates which separated the sacred enclosure (the holy of Holies) of some religious traditions, from the rest of the space, this one considered profane.

Deucalion, the Greek Noah, sails during 9 days on the vessel which he has built on the command of the gods.

For Hesiode, the Earth was separated from the Heaven by a distance of nine days and nine nights, and from the hell also by nine days and nights.

The nine levels of the hell of Dante.

The nine nodes of the bamboo for the Taoists.

The nine notches of the birch-axis of the world at the Siberian tribes.

The nine openings of the man for Islam.

The nine stages that should traverse the souls of Aztecs to reach the eternal rest. They counted also nine underground worlds.

The nine was the key number of teaching for the materialistic Hindu philosophers in the Vaiceshika school.

It is the period of years when the voice of God is heard by a person if this person did not understand yet one of his lessons of life.

The 9 girls of Belenos of the druidism: Ogia - virginity, Glania - purity, Karantia - charity, Uxellia - nobleness, Viriona - truth, Aventia - honesty, Dagia - goodness, Lania - plenitude, and Lovania - joy.

The nine is often found in the superstitions, such as for example, nine salt grains means the bad fate. And if someone wants to get marry in the year will jump nine times over a fire of the saint John or will jump over nine different fires. The tradition wants that the drowned returns to the surface of the water after nine days.

The magic square using the first nine numbers is associated to the planet Saturn and has for sum 15. Sometimes, it is also called the "square of Solomon".

Every nine years Athens sent, in the island of Crete, seven young men and seven young girls to be sacrificed there to the Minotaure.

There is nine "Dharmas", books constituting the Nepal Bible.

Orphism defines nine symbolic aspects of the universe divided into 3 triads: the night, the sky and the time; the ether, the light and the stars; the sun, the moon and the nature.

The 9 was the sacred monogram of the Moon goddess, "Bolon Tiku" of the Mayas.

The "Jin-Hoang" of the "Kieou-teou" divide the earth in nine parts, and nine brothers of the same name share the empire of the world.

In the Brahminism, Vichnou incarnates in nine avatars to sacrifice himself for the salvation of men.

In the biodynamic agriculture, the complete cycle for the preparation of the compost lasts nine months.

The language includes, grammatically, nine parts: the verb, the noun, the adjective, the participle, the conjunction, the article, the pronoun, the preposition and the adverb - interjection apart.

The nine planets discovered in our solar system, are in the order starting from Sun: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. Recently a tenth planet was discovery beyond Pluto.

R. Allendy speaks about the curious arithmetical properties of the nine which gives it a very particular character because of the use of our decimal notation system. In another numerical notation system they would cease to exist: the difference between an unspecified number and the number formed by the inversion of its digits is always a multiple of 9 - example: between 26 and 62, the difference is 36, multiple of 9; the multiples of 9 are always composed of digits where the sum (once reduced) is equal to 9; the product 123456789 x 9 gives 9 times the digit 1 in the answer (1111111101). Concerning this last property, Elisabeth Haich mentiones the next calculations:

0 x 9 + 1 = 1
1 x 9 + 2 = 11
12 x 9 + 3 = 111
123 x 9 + 4 = 1111
1234 x 9 + 5 = 11111
12345 x 9 + 6 = 111111
123456 x 9 + 7 = 1111111
1234567 x 9 + 8 = 11111111
12345678 x 9 + 9 = 111111111
123456789 x 9 + 10 = 1111111111

The Trojan War lasted nine years.

[uki]

the number 18...


Symbolize those which did not want to receive the Name of Jesus, or who having received it, did not persevere. Thibaut Of Langres arrives to this conclusion because of the fact that the first two letters of the Name of Jesus, iota and eta, according to the Greek manner to note the numbers, makes 18.

For R. Allendy, it represents "the ratios of the Nirvana world 8 with the whole of the Cosmos 10. The Nirvana is dispersed in the Cosmos, in a apparent involution, by an act of solidarity and love - 1 + 8 = 9". It would also constitute the realization of the love, the providence in action, 3 x 6 = 18.

The number 18 is in relation, in cabalistic numerology, with emotions, the secrets, the lie, the selfishness, the criminality, the destruction, the disposition of accidents, with the difficulties, the sickness, the danger.

The card 18 in the tarot corresponds to "the moon".

A year counted eighteen months, in the religious calendar Maya, composed of twenty days each one and giving a rest of 5 days.

The souls of the Just make to go up eighteen perfume columns, and forty nine different odors rise each day until the area called Eden.

The bouddhic literature mentions the eighteen conditions of a Buddha.

The Bhagavad-Gita, treaty of Yoga, has eighteen chapters.

The Bonzes used for their prayers a small rosary having 18 grains.

We find eighteen sounds in the Greek musical teaching.

The alphabet of the trees used by the druids for divinatory uses had eighteen letters, each letter deriving its name from the tree of which it is the initial. Composed of 5 vowels and 13 consonants, it formed a seasonal magic calendar of trees.

Some modern astronomers begin to believe that our Sun could turn itself around the Sirius star, as thought elsewhere the ancient Sumerian people, with a revolution period of eight hundred thousand years. During this period, the Earth would be eighteen times exactly aligned with the Sun and Sirius.

View from the Earth, the apparent diameter of the Moon, as well as its angular velocity, do not appear always the same since the Moon moves on an elliptic orbit rather than circular. This difference in apparent diameter reached per moments up to 1/18. For the same reasons, the apparent diameter of the Sun varies only of 1/60.

The average number of breathing of the man per minute is eighteen.

The Saturn planet has eighteen satellites.

the number 72...


Represent the number of the earth.

According to R. Allendy, it is "the differentiation, 2, in cosmic series, 70, producing the extreme multiplicity of the aspects, moreover interdependent between them (7 + 2 = 9)". It would express also the solidarity in the multiplicity (8 x 9) showing the harmony and the reciprocity in universal relations of things.

Gestation period of Laotseu.

Duration of the seasons according to Tchouangtseu.

The 72 disciples of Confucius.

It is the number of the Immortals Taoism.

The 72 companions of apotheosis of Houang-ti.

The Chinese astrology has 36 beneficial stars and 72 malevolent stars, their sum constitutes the sacred number 108.

The axis of the earth moves of one degree every 72 years compared to stars and to the vault of heaven.

Since a high antiquity, the Chinese divide the year in 24 parts of 15 days called Tsie-Ki, and each Tsie-Ki, subdivided in three, produces 72 part called Keou.

The life duration of the ovule is 72 hours.

The mass of the Moon is the 72th of that the Earth.

The volume of Saturn is 72 times of that the Earth.

It is the average number of cardiac pulsations of the man per minute.

Percentage of water of which the human body is composed.

The name of IEVE registered in a triangle gives as numerical value to each line 10, 15, 21 and 26, the sum giving 72:

I
IE
IEV
IEVE

[uki]

the number 108...


Number of the man.

According to the rosicrucians, it symbolizes the summit that a man can reach on the Path during his incarnation and it is then the number of the achievement.

Universal Number, as a product of 9, number of Completion, and 12, Cosmic number.

The 108 rosary beads bouddhic, Hindu and Tibetan. There is also the Chinese rosary of tantric and bouddhic origin. These 108 rosary beads of the Eastern would come from the sum of the 12 months, the 24 arrangements in which the solar calendar has been divided, and the 72 divisions of the Chinese year in periods of 5 days: 12 + 24 + 72 = 108. According to another extremely old tradition in the East, the importance of the number 108 would derive from 10800 which multiplies the number of moments in the year and the number of verses in the Rig-Veda.

There is, in the East, 108 weaknesses, such as the illusion, the desires, the hatred, the attachment, the pride, etc. which correspond to 108 grains of the Buddhist beads. These 108 weaknesses are called 108 karmic links.

108 lords of the Tao according to the Taoism.

108 columns of the temple of Ourga.

108 towers of the Phnom Bakheng in Angkor.

In the East, they speak about 108 branches or navamsas.

In Ladakh (called also the small Tibet) there is a lamasery by the name of Lamayuru and according to the legend, there was a lake, that would have been drained thanks to a miracle of a saint Buddhist. This monastery was built in the 10th century by a scientist that the King of the Ladakh sent for. This King had build 108 of those in all the oriental Tibet.

In Varanasi, surrounded by an immense multitude of listeners of all classes, Buddha pronounced a speech and developed his doctrine. His words, collected by his disciples, form 108 large volumes, known under the generic name of Gandjour. They treat exclusively on the metaphysics of creations; on the frail and perishable nature of the man; on the use of the virtues which emancipate the soul of the metempsychosis and on the abolition of the castes and the equality of all men in front of God.

After the death of the Buddha, Padma-Sambhava, the great Tibetan guru that re-establishs the esotericism to the Tibet, would have hidden and preserved 108 writing the more sacred that were revealed to him in celestial worlds (akashics file) in the world of men and the Kingdom of Nagas (or of followers). He hid them at the border of Nepal in the North of Tibet.

In the Tibetan tradition, it insists a lot on the role of Shakti (or Tara), that is to say against female part of the followers. In reality, for the initiate, it is a question of being united with its own Shakti called Kundalini or "The Mother of the World". There exists 108 names of Tara referring to the different manifestations of the eternal feminine.

The new Japanese year is celebrated, the day before at the evening, by 108 knocks of gong in the main temples. It is one of the feasts which joins together the most world, because, exceptionally, they are the laymen and not the monks who have to knock on the gong.

In the mandala Kongo-Kaï of Japanese, there exists 108 saint celebrities called the Honorable of the Vajradhatu.

According to a Tibetan legend, there exists in Shambhala 108 great Initiated and Masters.

There exists 108 signs of headdresses of the Buddha, 108 devoted lamps and 108 names of Buddha.

In Hinduism, there are 108 pose representations (dances anointed) of the Nastya Shastra, there is 108 Upanishads, 108 names of Vishnu in the Mahabharata and 108 names for Shiva.

An Italian legend claims that the 108th pope will be the last true pope and that the others will announce only the era of the Antichrist.

The Chinese astrology counts 36 beneficial stars and 72 evil stars, their sum constitutes the sacred number 108.

In Cabal and in Hinduism, 108 years complete of Brahma constitute one whole period of the age of Brahma, that is to say 1 Maha Kalpa.

The sum of three times six squared gives 108, 6²+6²+6² = 108. The number 666 corresponds to the number of the Beast of the Revelation.

In the geometry of the pentagon, the angle between the lines of the points formed by the star, is 72 degrees. Also the angle between paws of the pentagon is 108 degrees.
now of course i didn't get into the number 3, nor 36, which are also common numbers in chinese martial arts, but do you think the ancients were onto something when they created their styles?

comments anyone? :cool:

[SimonM]

Numerology: The delusion that there are significant meanings behind random accumulations of numeric data.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What? no 69 ???
Losers...

[EarthDragon]

interesting post Uki, however numerology can be done with every number, nothoing special about 9............some of the more popular are 7 and 8

7 chakras, 7 planes of exitistence, 7 layers, etc etc , liucky # 7

8 trigrams, 8 steps of bagua, 8 fold path, 8 step, etc etc

and of course 69 for snajuro... LOL

have you seen the movie with jim carey 23? again interesting but can be done with any number you choose to explore... good post though

[David Jamieson]

numerology is for people who don't want to, or can't understand the actual applications and usefulness of mathematics.

lol

also, astrology is bull****

I double dog dare you to provide qualitative and quantitative evidence that the truth is contrary to that statement. :D

[GreenCloudCLF]

numerology is for people who don't want to, or can't understand the actual applications and usefulness of mathematics.

lol

also, astrology is bull****

I double dog dare you to provide qualitative and quantitative evidence that the truth is contrary to that statement. :D

I'm a Libra and well-balanced HA:D:D

[uki]

numerology is for people who don't want to, or can't understand the actual applications and usefulness of mathematics.

lol

also, astrology is bull****

I double dog dare you to provide qualitative and quantitative evidence that the truth is contrary to that statement.the only thing that smells like poo poo around here is you...

*sniff*

*sniff*

you are pretty stinky. :D

as for everyone elses responses... i am not here to prove or disprove, i am here to share information... you can do what you want with it. :)

[David Jamieson]

the only thing that smells like poo poo around here is you...

*sniff*

*sniff*

you are pretty stinky. :D

as for everyone elses responses... i am not here to prove or disprove, i am here to share information... you can do what you want with it. :)

The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear. -krishnamurti

:)

please don't take my admonishment personally.

[uki]

please don't take my admonishment personally.don't worry... you couldn't offend a fly. :)

[Lucas]

i know magic. dont make me turn u all into lizards

[uki]

i know magic. dont make me turn u all into lizardsturn david into a slug so i can pour salt on him. :D

[Lucas]

lol, thats cruel and un usual punishement.

i was thinking giant flying fire breathing lizards.

[David Jamieson]

turn david into a slug so i can pour salt on him. :D

you are contrary even with yourself.

I do not envy the difficulties that you must encounter in the simplest of day to day functions.

[uki]

lol, thats cruel and un usual punishement.i thought it would be better than humbling him by knocking him in the effing jaw. :D


i was thinking giant flying fire breathing lizards.they'll be around soon enough.

[David Jamieson]

i thought it would be better than humbling him by knocking him in the effing jaw. :D
they'll be around soon enough.

big words for such a scrawny little dude. lol.

you gonna make a bogus challenge match next where i'm supposed to meet you in a park in baltimore?

stupid twat lol. you're awesome....for ****. :)

[Exadon]

to meet you in a park in baltimore?

Just want to know, why Baltimore? :)

[David Jamieson]

Just want to know, why Baltimore? :)

because it's ralek's favourite place, near the pond, with the ducks and he'll be in teh white car. lol

sorry if you don't know who ralek is, i'm sure someone will pipe up and explain. it's a bit of a kkm thing. :D

[SimonM]

David consider this:

Uki regularly contradicts himself and posts wild and wolly links to random insane websites.

He's a big joke.

Laugh at him when he's funny and ignore him when he's not. It's much more fun.

[David Jamieson]

David consider this:

Uki regularly contradicts himself and posts wild and wolly links to random insane websites.

He's a big joke.

Laugh at him when he's funny and ignore him when he's not. It's much more fun.

It's sad to watch a mind deteriorate from drug use and decent into madness.
It's probably even worse for a kid to watch it.
It's really sad to watch someone who is utterly convinced that their madness is reality.

BUt in the end, I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really care about it.
I mean, if I feel like telling someone to go **** yourself because i'm a bit stressed from the demands of my day, it may as well be uki seeing as he invites it whereas none of my clients do. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't get why you guys just don't use the ignore function.

[uki]

I don't get why you guys just don't use the ignore function.david doesn't have the willpower for it... he claims that i don't matter to him, but he never fails to post a response to me... go figure. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

david doesn't have the willpower for it... he claims that i don't matter to him, but he never fails to post a response to me... go figure. :rolleyes:

Quite the sorted love triangle.
:D

[uki]

Quite the sorted love triangle.there's plenty of room... want in? :p

[SimonM]

I don't get why you guys just don't use the ignore function.

I do use the ignore function. It doesn't work well. I still have to put up with 50% of 1bad65's bullplop.

Half the time with uki I enjoy kicking over his sand-castles of wild fancy. The other half the time I sit back and laugh as he plays his audience (everyone else) like a fiddle. Occasionally he says something valid and I give him props. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

there's plenty of room... want in? :p

Sorry, I shaved my 70's mustache off a long time ago.

[Wildwoo]

big words for such a scrawny little dude. lol.

you gonna make a bogus challenge match next where i'm supposed to meet you in a park in baltimore?

stupid twat lol. you're awesome....for ****. :)

He just has a little boner because he just learned copy & paste.:rolleyes:
I remember when I had my first beer!

[David Jamieson]

david doesn't have the willpower for it... he claims that i don't matter to him, but he never fails to post a response to me... go figure. :rolleyes:

i think it was you who stated I don't matter to you.

From my standpoint it's not that you don't matter, it's that I don't care about you.
Seriously, you could die in a fire tomorrow and my world wouldn't change except that I wouldn't be reading anymore **** posts from you in this forum.

[Wildwoo]

I don't get why you guys just don't use the ignore function.

Owww I'll give you a Canadian Quarter if you teach me how!!!

[David Jamieson]

I don't ignore anyone.

I understand that you can learn from idiots as well as intellectuals.

uki fits the idiot portion.

He's right up there with a few other "members" of this forum.

[Exadon]

Owww I'll give you a Canadian Quarter if you teach me how!!!

I want my Canadian Quarter! :)

[David Jamieson]

I want my Canadian Quarter! :)

lol

the awesome ftw

[diego]

numerology is for people who don't want to, or can't understand the actual applications and usefulness of mathematics.

lol

also, astrology is bull****

I double dog dare you to provide qualitative and quantitative evidence that the truth is contrary to that statement. :D

i don't care about horoscopes but I use to. once I got a professional reading from a friend and it said the usual, but when it said watch out be carefull it showed a pic of a guy climbing a cliff...sure enough six hours later I went hiking in Lynn Canyon by my old house and sure enough I got stuck on the side of the cliff heading up to the waterfall. I remember hugging the rock surface visualizing the astro' reading... fwiw

[uki]

From my standpoint it's not that you don't matter, it's that I don't care about you.thats a wonderful attitude to have sir.


Seriously, you could die in a fire tomorrow and my world wouldn't change except that I wouldn't be reading anymore **** posts from you in this forum.ironically if the tables were turned, i would do my best to save(help) you or your family from your burning house if i was in the neighborhood...

[David Jamieson]

thats a wonderful attitude to have sir.
ironically if the tables were turned, i would do my best to save(help) you or your family from your burning house if i was in the neighborhood...

again, total crap. why not go out and help someone in the nearest city then? what do you do to be charitable to others?

you talk a lot, but most of it is crap.

cest la vie.

you may retort with your typical contrary point now.

:)

[uki]

what do you do to be charitable to others?i have had my days... if you look to be charitable it is not worth anything, if you happen to be charitable when the time comes, it means everything. better to not let the right hand see what the left hand is doing... seeking to be acknowledged as being a giver is not really giving. :)

[SimonM]

i have had my days... if you look to be charitable it is not worth anything, if you happen to be charitable when the time comes, it means everything. better to not let the right hand see what the left hand is doing... seeking to be acknowledged as being a giver is not really giving. :)

I'm calling bull**** on that.

When good intentions are supported by good actions they have no less worth than impulsive actions. Random acts of kindness are good. Planned acts of kindness are likewise.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I'm calling bull**** on that.

When good intentions are supported by good actions they have no less worth than impulsive actions. Random acts of kindness are good. Planned acts of kindness are likewise.

Random acts of kindness are better, because if you are never in a position to do something nice, you never have to. It is the lazy man's way out.

[uki]

When good intentions are supported by good actions they have no less worth than impulsive actions. Random acts of kindness are good. Planned acts of kindness are likewise.i don't believe anything is random... there are no co-incidences in life, everything is in synchronicity with everything else... so random acts of kindness do not exist for me; there are only acts of kindness when the time comes for them to be done.

[SimonM]

There is your problem. You always go seeking patterns where there are none.

That aside, you know precisely what I meant by "random acts of kindness" and it had nothing to do with the fate / free will debate.

[Exadon]

I also agree with with the above "I call Bull****"

to add a comment to your last line of:

seeking to be acknowledged as being a giver is not really giving. :)

There is no such thing as a selfless act

[GreenCloudCLF]

I also agree with with the above "I call Bull****"

to add a comment to your last line of:


There is no such thing as a selfless act

I saw that episode of friends too!

[Exadon]

I saw that episode of friends too!

****it! caught!

hahah. ahhhh~~~~

*hums to himself*
I'll be there for you~~~~~

[David Jamieson]

well, it is correct, you cannot remove yourself from your actions, ergo there is no selfless act.

this is like people who say "you have to lose your ego".

what rot. If you lost your ego, you would be completely out of touch with reality. You require an ego to simply function in this world, without one, you would surely die if left to your own devices.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Deep down, most of us do selfless acts because, not only are we helping out fellow man, it feels good too.
No such things as a 100% selfless act if you get something out of it, even something as minor as a "good feeling".
I have issues with people that act/behave certain ways because they feel that have to for whatever reason.
Be it religious, be it ethical be it traditional.

[Exadon]

Be it religious, be it ethical be it traditional.

I agree with you 100%. One of the reasons why I am not so religious. I do not wish to do a good act because
"God is watching you"

if I am to do a good act...it will be for the reasons you stated above, to help fellow man, and to get that "good feeling" inside .

[Lucas]

personally i help people because it makes me happy. a client of mine the other day out of no where says to me : "Im glad you are here Lucas, you make a lot of peoples lives better"

that made me feel **** good. mostly because its true, but also partly because making peoples lives better brings joy to not only them but myself for being able to make that difference.

i cannot think of a single time when i went out of my way to help someone, that i was did not feel an emotion due to the results. whether its helping an old woman carry her cart down the stairs, or putting food in a homless kids stomach, i always feel something based on that interaction.

though i dont do these types of things ONLY because it makes me happy. I know too that it brings happiness and relief to the people that are in need of a hand. there have been times when I have gone out of my way to help someone even though i didnt really want to. sometimes when you are in a position to lend that hand to a fellow person, its not a matter of being please with your helping, but because you feel a duty to do so, as the only one capable at that moment. no one will understand that feeling of duty unless they have experienced it themselves.

ask some soldiers here. im sure theyve been there

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with you 100%. One of the reasons why I am not so religious. I do not wish to do a good act because
"God is watching you"

if I am to do a good act...it will be for the reasons you stated above, to help fellow man, and to get that "good feeling" inside .

Most religions teach that good deeds should come from "within" and NOT because God is watching.
The New testament's Gospel of Matthew even mentions the deeds that God wants us to do and why, out of love for our fellow man.

[Lucas]

Most religions teach that good deeds should come from "within" and NOT because God is watching.
The New testament's Gospel of Matthew even mentions the deeds that God wants us to do and why, out of love for our fellow man.

that may be what religions teach, but we also know many people obey because of fear. not everyone but certainly many

[GreenCloudCLF]

I agree with you 100%. One of the reasons why I am not so religious. I do not wish to do a good act because
"God is watching you"

if I am to do a good act...it will be for the reasons you stated above, to help fellow man, and to get that "good feeling" inside .

Is a good deed done because "God is watching" any less good than me doing it to make me feel good?

[Lucas]

the deed itself has no change, only the intentions.

now the question remains, does the intention even matter in the end?

[SimonM]

Good question.

The answer is two part:

1) How does awareness of bad intention affect the person who acts good while thinking bad?

2) What are the unforseen consequences of the improper intention for the good deed.

If there are no consequences down the line that do harm and if a person who does good for the "wrong" reason is good within themselves than the answer is absolutely nothing.

But if the person causes suffering to themselves or others through their good deeds / bad intentions than the answer is that it is wrong.

[EarthDragon]

David J,
OMG you mean that uki is relak??????????????? LOL holy crap I remember that guy from the 90's.. didnt he get banned or thrown off this board? and yet he surfaces under a different alias...... man this board makes less sense everyday

[uki]

:(
David J,
OMG you mean that uki is relak??????????????? LOL holy crap I remember that guy from the 90's.. didnt he get banned or thrown off this board? and yet he surfaces under a different alias...... man this board makes less sense everydayi signed up in 2007 and have never been here before, ever... believe what you will, but this is the truth. :)

[CLFLPstudent]

Good question.

The answer is two part:

1) How does awareness of bad intention affect the person who acts good while thinking bad?

2) What are the unforseen consequences of the improper intention for the good deed.

If there are no consequences down the line that do harm and if a person who does good for the "wrong" reason is good within themselves than the answer is absolutely nothing.

But if the person causes suffering to themselves or others through their good deeds / bad intentions than the answer is that it is wrong.

Ah, so isn't being "good" entirely selfish then? Whether to please God, or to make yourself feel '"good" for doing "good"? The act of doing "good" is entirely for self-serving purposes? Is there no such thing as a "good" act entirely selfless?

On the other hand, numerology is bunk.

-David

[uki]

On the other hand, numerology is bunk.blind ignorance is bunk. :)

[David Jamieson]

Arthur C Clarke made a comment about magic that springs to mind in regard to these kinds of things.

It was something along the lines of " Anything that is sufficiently beyond our ability to comprehend it get's delegated to the realm of magic"

I think it was more in reference to high technology, but it applies here.

Simon made a good point about chasing patterns where there aren't any and Andy's post before me is also relevant to the gist of it.

[uki]

Simon made a good point about chasing patterns where there aren't any and Andy's post before me is also relevant to the gist of it.people don't see the patterns of life because they do not look for them, nor understand how to recognize them... everything follows a set order, everything follows a pattern... cycles are the way of nature. :)

[golden arhat]

don't worry... you couldn't offend a fly. :)

not according to kansuke

[Exadon]

people don't see the patterns of life because they do not look for them, nor understand how to recognize them... everything follows a set order, everything follows a pattern... cycles are the way of nature. :)

While I do agree…there are patterns in life. The points above were made about your specific post about

how everything seems to reduce to 9 in Gong fu. It goes on to almost state how 9 is a magic number due to other events/history/mythology.

These are not patterns in life. One can make any event in life add up to any number they wish. You say 9 is lucky,

It is easy to find one specific number when you are just looking for that number alone.

When you say people do not understand how to recognize them, I think that is a bold statement. There is no way you can say for sure that these occurrences for the number 9 are set pattern of life with proof. I can just as easily prove that any number is just as lucky as your 9…and prove how many times it shows up in the past for what ever reason.

[SimonM]

Ah, so isn't being "good" entirely selfish then? Whether to please God, or to make yourself feel '"good" for doing "good"? The act of doing "good" is entirely for self-serving purposes? Is there no such thing as a "good" act entirely selfless?

On the other hand, numerology is bunk.

-David

It's natural to feel good for pursuing the greater good. Selflessness is still possible but I will admit that true selflessness is both rare and something that chould achieve high praise.

That aside I am entirely satisfied with the idea of people doing good things in order to make themselves feel better about themselves. Why the heck not?

[Scott R. Brown]

On the topic of selfish vs. selfless actions:

We receive a personal benefit for any act we perform, sometimes the benefit is outward in a material or social sense, sometimes the benefit is inward in a psychological sense, sometimes it is both, but that does not necessarily make the act a selfish act. Selfish acts are generally considered to be acts that “primarily” benefit us as opposed to acts that “primarily” benefit others.

If the act benefits others in an outward manner, but appears to be detrimental to ourselves in an outward manner, then from the social context it is generally considered selfless, however it is correct to say that there is a psychological benefit received, which makes the act appear to include self-interest as well.

The “spiritual” goal is not to be selfless, even though this is the word that is generally used to teach the concept. The goal is to not be “emotionally attached” to the ego. Another way to consider this is to recognize that our “ego” is an artificial and transient construct used for social purposes. When we make decisions for the primary purpose of supporting an artificial construct then we are slaves to a phantom that seeks to reinforce its control over our actions.

In Buddhism, when we recognize that our social ego is an artificial construct, we have taken a step towards freeing ourselves from its bondage and become able to make decisions based upon objective values and not emotional values, values that are designed to support our artificial ego.

[SimonM]

people don't see the patterns of life because they do not look for them, nor understand how to recognize them... everything follows a set order, everything follows a pattern... cycles are the way of nature. :)

I deny destiny.
I deny fate.
The universe is a system of chaotic interaction which we only classify into patterns because of the random sequence of chances that led to the development of pattern-seeking organisms on this hunk 'o inconsequential rock.

I revel in the free-will that the absence of an overarching destiny grants me.

[Scott R. Brown]

I deny destiny.
I deny fate.
The universe is a system of chaotic interaction which we only classify into patterns because of the random sequence of chances that led to the development of pattern-seeking organisms on this hunk 'o inconsequential rock.

I revel in the free-will that the absence of an overarching destiny grants me.

Well, technically there ARE patterns. If there weren't we wouldn't have the seasons, we n'thave airplanes, healthy diets, Kung Fu, social organizations, etc. All of life is patterns and pattern recognition. Chemistry and physics could not exist without predictable patterns and neither would this conversation, since language is based upon predictable patterns.

[SimonM]

Those patterns overly a much greater sea of absolute chaos. At the end of the day accident and randomness are the governing forces of the universe.

[Scott R. Brown]

I think of it more as a balance between order and chaos as demonstrated by Yin-Yang! While there is clearly an observable, repeated and predictable pattern/order to the universe, there is also an inherently designed chaos that allows for unpredictable variation.

[SimonM]

Of course you do.

[Scott R. Brown]

And by "unpredictable" I mean, unpredictable within a bell curve of predictability! So we could say the universe is "predictably unpredictable" or we could say it is "unpredictably predictable"!

[Scott R. Brown]

Of course you do.

...............;) Are you saying I am predictable??

[SimonM]

What do you predict I'm going to say?

[Scott R. Brown]

What do you predict I'm going to say?

I didn't predict in my own mind "what" you would say, however I did predict you would "probably" say something, thus demonstrating a pattern with inherent variation!

[SimonM]

Rotflmfao! :D :D

[Scott R. Brown]

And.....it is immaterial whether you actually answer or not, since by the rule, to not answer also carries with it a probability. That is, your response falls within a predictable range of variables" you will either respond or you won't" thus what you do is predictable within a variation. This illustrates a pattern from which you cannot escape! Thus there is a sense of destiny in that you only have two choices, "response" or "no response"! One of which MUST occur!

[uki]

While I do agree…there are patterns in life. The points above were made about your specific post about

how everything seems to reduce to 9 in Gong fu. It goes on to almost state how 9 is a magic number due to other events/history/mythology.

These are not patterns in life. One can make any event in life add up to any number they wish. You say 9 is lucky,

It is easy to find one specific number when you are just looking for that number alone.

When you say people do not understand how to recognize them, I think that is a bold statement. There is no way you can say for sure that these occurrences for the number 9 are set pattern of life with proof. I can just as easily prove that any number is just as lucky as your 9…and prove how many times it shows up in the past for what ever reason.i don't give belief to magical powers in numbers, but i do understand that numbers are far more than meets the eye as far as the workings and cycles of celestial mechanics in this universe... the following is a post i made in another thread, i feel it is also appropriate here.

math is basically the same, unless you based the system of numbers on 12 as opposed to ten... 12 in itself reduces to 3, the number of power, strength, and unity; the trinity of scripture, the union of mind, body, and spirt... protons, neutrons, and electrons... three sets of 12's adds up to 36, which reduces to 9; the number nine symbolizes change, it is also the reduced sum of all angles in any geometric shape, aswell as the reduced number for a perfect circle of 360 degrees. there were also nine muses in greek mythology representing inspiration and arts... furthermore, each house of the zodiac is 2,160 years(which reduces to 9), 12 zodiac houses in the celestial sphere of the heavens, 12 x 2,160 = 25,920 years(which reduces to 9), 9 squares itself into 3 equal parts, one third of the whole.

i mean i suppose 10 is an alright number, you know, 1 and 0, the binary language of the universe, yin and yang, something and nothing... but that is for another conversation. :)
there is no denying that nine is the number associated with change and harmony... wether or not you care to believe it is inconsequential to the underlying facts in this matter. :)

[Exadon]

underlying facts in this matter. :)

The math is fact, the rest is opinion. There is no way you can make a logical case that "3 is the number of power".


there is no denying that nine is the number associated with change and harmony...

but to each his/her own If you truly believe it, then it is your right. I just feel numbers are a man made system to help keep track of complex problems. Nothing more.

[Scott R. Brown]

The math is fact, the rest is opinion. There is no way you can make a logical case that "3 is the number of power".

but to each his/her own opninon. If you truly believe it, then it is your right. I just feel numbers are a man made system to help keep track of complex problems. Nothing more.

This raises the question, which came first, number or the perception of number. However, if there is no mind to perceive the number, can we say that numbers exist?

It would appear that forms and mind are mutually dependent. One cannot exist without the other.

Since one of the qualities of mind is to discover patterns and derive meaning from them, where "meaning" is defined as "using information in order to derive a predictable benefit" then all one need do is demonstrate that the number "3' or "9" provides a repeatable and predictable benefit. Since what is beneficial to one may not necessarily be considered a benefit to another, we cannot actually say with certainty that "3" or "9" do not have meaning, only that they don't have meaning to "us"!

[Exadon]

This raises the question, which came first, number or the perception of number. However, if there is no mind to perceive the number, can we say that numbers exist?

I don't think numbers "exist". Numbers are just a tracking system for us to use. Water will still freeze weather we mark it's temp. Gravity will still have it's effect weather we measure it.





we cannot actually say with certainty that "3" or "9" do not have meaning, only that they don't have meaning to "us"!

Nor can we say with certainty that they do have such meanings :)

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't think numbers "exist". Numbers are just a tracking system for us to use. Water will still freeze weather we mark it's temp. Gravity will still have it's effect weather we measure it.

I guess it depends upon how we define the word, "exist". If they are conceived by a mind then they could be said to exist. But if we narrowly define "exist" to be only what may be tangible to the physical senses, then we could say they don't exist.

However, using numbers in a meaningful manner does provide humans with repeatable and predictable results that provide a benefit. I would say that is enough to demonstrate numbers exist!


Nor can we say with certainty that they do have such meanings :)

To have "no-meaning" is still a sense of "meaning"! Since no meaning would mean non-existent. But since there are predictable and repeatable derived benefits we can say they having meaning and therefore, exist.

[CLFLPstudent]

there is no denying that nine is the number associated with change and harmony... wether or not you care to believe it is inconsequential to the underlying facts in this matter. :)

Why? Why 9? Why change and harmony? Why not irritable bowels and cheese sandwiches?


math is basically the same, unless you based the system of numbers on 12 as opposed to ten... 12 in itself reduces to 3, the number of power, strength, and unity; the trinity of scripture, the union of mind, body, and spirt... protons, neutrons, and electrons... three sets of 12's adds up to 36, which reduces to 9; the number nine symbolizes change, it is also the reduced sum of all angles in any geometric shape, aswell as the reduced number for a perfect circle of 360 degrees. there were also nine muses in greek mythology representing inspiration and arts... furthermore, each house of the zodiac is 2,160 years(which reduces to 9), 12 zodiac houses in the celestial sphere of the heavens, 12 x 2,160 = 25,920 years(which reduces to 9), 9 squares itself into 3 equal parts, one third of the whole.

i mean i suppose 10 is an alright number, you know, 1 and 0, the binary language of the universe, yin and yang, something and nothing... but that is for another conversation.

Why is 3 the number of power? Who said this? Where is the proof? As said before in this thread, the 'interpreter' can do the same for any number. Where is the basis that your numerology system is correct? Why is it any different from any organized religion who thinks their ideology is the right one?

Where is the information from your great numerology bible coming from?

-David

[Scott R. Brown]

Why? Why 9? Why change and harmony? Why not irritable bowels and cheese sandwiches?



Why is 3 the number of power? Who said this? Where is the proof? As said before in this thread, the 'interpreter' can do the same for any number. Where is the basis that your numerology system is correct? Why is it any different from any organized religion who thinks their ideology is the right one?

Where is the information from your great numerology bible coming from?

-David

I think the mathematical harmony of numbers was identified and described by Pythagoras!

[uki]

hmmm... i believe it has been established that the tri-angle is the strongest of all the geometric shapes... there is no building or structure that is as foundationaly solid than that based on the triangle. none. not one... and considering that tri is translated to 3, i'd be willing to say that this is proof enough that the number 3 is associated with strength, power, and unity.

and just incase that is not self-evident proof enough, 3 is also the corresponding number of aspects in the human psyche... mind, body, and spirit. 3 is also the number of elemental particles in the atom, of course they break down further into quarks and what-not, but fundamentally there are only protons, neutrons, and electrons, which is the basic building block of all physical matter... yet i am sure that the limited mindset of those certain individuals on these boards would like to argue the facts, but those arguments will remain obsolete and inconsequential in the end.

also, the number 9 is the only whole and singular number that when multiplied by any other number, will give you an answer that reduces itself back to it's original... 9. please feel free to debunk this fact, which is also known as the ennead. the reason 9 is associated with change and harmony is simply because it is the only singular number that represents all geometric patterns and the sphere... it is truly much like water. :)

[SimonM]

Actually that's not true. You can play the same trick with 3.


A natural number is divisible by three if the sum of its digits in base 10 is divisible by 3. For example, the number 21 is divisible by three (3 times 7) and the sum of its digits is 2 + 1 = 3. Because of this, the reverse of any number that is divisible by three (or indeed, any permutation of its digits) is also divisible by three. For instance, 1368 and its reverse 8631 are both divisible by three (and so are 1386, 3168, 3186, 3618, etc..). See also Divisibility rule.

[Exadon]

Actually that's not true. You can play the same trick with 3.

Don't say that, he will just go on another rant about how it proves that 3 is power :p

[uki]

Don't say that, he will just go on another rant about how it proves that 3 is power.simon just keeps reaffirming the facts, besides it takes three 3's to make 9. :p

[Exadon]

simon just keeps reaffirming the facts, besides it takes three 3's to make 9. :p

that is a silly argument, how it takes three 3s to make 9. You keep using this as your base that 3 = power.

I could say that 1 is the magic number of unity, power, and all things holy. Your 3 lacks compared to my 1

Why you ask?

without 1 there could be no 3. Unlike your magic 3, 1 can make every number. with out 1 there would be nothing. and nothing is boring.

your 3 is illcompared to my magic and holy 1. praise to be the holy 1. the one and only 1.

name one thing "get it -one-" that your 3 can do that my 1 can't. and I will say that your point is valid.

p.s. you can break every number down to base 2 counting (binary), that just uses 0 and 1. thus everything breaks down to something (1) and nothing (0). thus 1 is the holy something

[uki]

name one thing "get it -one-" that your 3 can do that my 1 can't. and I will say that your point is valid.well sir... it takes atleast 3 sides to form an enclosure. :p

[Exadon]

well sir... it takes atleast 3 sides to build an enclosure. :p

and 3 sides are made up of 3 single sides. (key word single) without having a single to start with...you could never hope to have 3. Thus 1 is the magic and holy number

praise be to 1

[SimonM]

No

O

Has fewer than three sides and yet is an enclosure.

[Exadon]

No

O

Has fewer than three sides and yet is an enclosure.

hahah
good one.

oh, and it was a good "one"
one is the holy number
praise be to one

[uki]

add up and reduce the degrees in that sphere or oval there mr. simon. :)

one side does not make an enclosure, it still takes three single sides to form a united unit to do that.

[SimonM]

add up and reduce the degrees in that sphere or oval there mr. simon. :)

one side does not make an enclosure, it still takes three single sides to form a united unit to do that.

Just because 360 is divisible by 3 does not make a circle a triangle Uki. Sorry it's the dunce cap for you again... gotta stop seeing patterns that don't exist.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just because 360 is divisible by 3 does not make a circle a triangle Uki. Sorry it's the dunce cap for you again... gotta stop seeing patterns that don't exist.

He may be referring to Height, width and depth, you know, 3-D, all enclosures have to have those 3.

[SimonM]

A perfect sphere, depending on interpretation, has either 1 side or an infinite number of sides. Therefore the 3 thing is irrelevant.

[Scott R. Brown]

We can thank the Sumerians and their base 12 mathematics for the 360* circle. We could just as easily have a metric circular measure and make it 1000 degrees, or any other base ten multiple.

[uki]

We can thank the Sumerians and their base 12 mathematics for the 360* circle.remember the sumerians understanding of mathematics was derived from the anunnaki, who have 6 digits on each appendage, rather than our 5... obviously it makes counting easier when it can be done harmoniously on the hands. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Actually I don't think it was from 6 digits per hand, but 12 planets in the solar system if you include the sun, the moon and their own planet.

[CLFLPstudent]

Actually I don't think it was from 6 digits per hand, but 12 planets in the solar system if you include the sun, the moon and their own planet.

Ok, again - why our moon? why not the 63 moons of Jupiter? Why not Phobos and Deimos? The 15 moons of Saturn? etc.? Why so 'earth'-centric?

-David

[uki]

Actually I don't think it was from 6 digits per hand, but 12 planets in the solar system if you include the sun, the moon and their own planet.quite possibly, but i am sure i read somewhere that it was because of the 12 fingers. do you remember gath?

[Scott R. Brown]

Ok, again - why our moon? why not the 63 moons of Jupiter? Why not Phobos and Deimos? The 15 moons of Saturn? etc.? Why so 'earth'-centric?

-David

It isn't my theory, it is Zaharia Sitchin's theory, however I would surmise the moon was included because this is the livable planet in the solar system the Annunaki inhabited and the moon is rather prominent in the night sky here.

Or it could have been the theorized planet that smashed into earth and caused the asteroid belt.

There are 12 planets in our solar system in the Sumerian mythology tales, so Sitchin had to theorize on how they got to that number. I believe in the Sumerian writings they included the moon however. You will have to ask a Sumerian if you want the straight dope I guess!;)


quite possibly, but i am sure i read somewhere that it was because of the 12 fingers. do you remember gath?

Well I do not recall the Annunaki having 12 fingers, but I could be wrong. I do not remember Gath!

[uki]

I do not remember Gath!how about a history lesson then...

http://bible.cc/1_chronicles/20-6.htm

http://bible.cc/2_samuel/21-20.htm

http://fdocc.blogspot.com/2006/01/three-rivers-and-six-fingers-thrice.html

http://www.ktvu.com/news/18608582/detail.html

:D

[Scott R. Brown]

One man with 12 fingers does not a base 12 mathematics make!!;)

[uki]

One man with 12 fingers does not a base 12 mathematics make!!i know. :)

[mantis108]

If the number 3 is a number of creative power, then which number is the number of destructive power? A viable theory must be clear, logical and self explanatory.

Now, the Golden Mean 1.618... - 0.618.... = 1 or - 0.618 .... + 1.618.... is clear, logical and self explanatory that we can almost certain that the value of 1 is always rendered (excluding the first 12 numbers). So you see being 1, 1 does not create; thus it is being 1 (One).

Hi Scott,


On the topic of selfish vs. selfless actions:

We receive a personal benefit for any act we perform, sometimes the benefit is outward in a material or social sense, sometimes the benefit is inward in a psychological sense, sometimes it is both, but that does not necessarily make the act a selfish act. Selfish acts are generally considered to be acts that “primarily” benefit us as opposed to acts that “primarily” benefit others.

If the act benefits others in an outward manner, but appears to be detrimental to ourselves in an outward manner, then from the social context it is generally considered selfless, however it is correct to say that there is a psychological benefit received, which makes the act appear to include self-interest as well.

The “spiritual” goal is not to be selfless, even though this is the word that is generally used to teach the concept. The goal is to not be “emotionally attached” to the ego. Another way to consider this is to recognize that our “ego” is an artificial and transient construct used for social purposes. When we make decisions for the primary purpose of supporting an artificial construct then we are slaves to a phantom that seeks to reinforce its control over our actions.

In Buddhism, when we recognize that our social ego is an artificial construct, we have taken a step towards freeing ourselves from its bondage and become able to make decisions based upon objective values and not emotional values, values that are designed to support our artificial ego.

I believe the idea of Karma can be viewed in terms of noumena, providing that we acknowledge human being is cable of intelligible intuition as in the traditions of Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism. As such, it does not necessarily follow the logic of phenomena. It would be more about practical reason then theoretical reason. That is to say it's more so of Nous than Logos. Buddhism has to deal with the problem of Atman which is linked with Karma.

Just a thought.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[uki]

If the number 3 is a number of creative power, then which number is the number of destructive power?obviously it would have to be not a number... nothing... zero; for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction... in this case it would be not a number - any number multiplied by nothing reduces itself to nothing, hence something is destroyed by nothing(and vice versa) :cool:

[Exadon]

obviously it would have to be not a number... nothing... zero; for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction... in this case it would be not a number - any number multiplied by nothing reduces itself to nothing, hence something is destroyed by nothing(and vice versa) :cool:

no...an opposite and equal reaction to 3 would be -3

[uki]

no...an opposite and equal reaction to 3 would be -3no... the opposite of a number is not the number.

[Exadon]

no... the opposite of a number is not the number.


an equal and opposite reaction, not just the opposite of a number Uki. The equal and opposite reaction.

(as you claimed before)
example of equal and opposite reaction

when you stand on the earth, gravity is pulling you down and -X while the earth is pushing you back up at +X thus canceling each other out. and keeping you at a constant level in that space.

If you have an equal and opposite reaction of 3 it would be -3

[uki]

If you have an equal and opposite reaction of 3 it would be -3yet if i am correct here... -3 x 3 will not give you nothing, it will give you something, thus it is not quite as destructive as zero... eh? yet, if in fact -3 x 3 gives you zero, i will surrender for the time being. :p

[Exadon]

no... the opposite of a number is not the number.

p.s. http://www.chacha.com/question/what-is-the-opposite-of-a-number

[uki]

p.s. http://www.chacha.com/question/what-is-the-opposite-of-a-numberand if it's multiplied?

[Exadon]

yet if i am correct here... -3 x 3 will not give you nothing, it will give you something, thus it is not quite as destructive as zero... eh? yet, if in fact -3 x 3 gives you zero, i will surrender for the time being. :p


and if it's multiplied?



just because -3 does not fit your crazy theory, does not make 0 the equal and opposite reaction of 3. Sorry uki. The only reason you wish to X the number is to fit your theory that somehow 0 is the opposite reaction of 3? and it's not. haha sorry man. You can't just multiply any number to make it fit your theory

that would make 0 the equal and opposite force of every known number since if you multiply it by that number it becomes 0.

[uki]

just because -3 does not fit your crazy theory, does not make 0 the equal and opposite reaction of 3. Sorry ukibut the concept of zero is the opposite of the concept of numbers... sorry.

[Exadon]

but the concept of zero is the opposite of the concept of numbers... sorry.

Absolute zero can be thought to have 2 opposites. One would be 0 it self, the other would be infinity

the opposite of 3 is -3.

[Exadon]

lets use this in a real world problem

S x T (where S = Steps and T = How many Steps)

If you walk 3 Steps that would make T=3

So S x T(3) = 3 Steps...

now in your mind 0 is the opposite of 3.

so let us make T = 0

S x T(0) = 0...

Does that mean not moving at all is the opposite of moving 3 steps froward? I don't think so. Your math does not add up

[uki]

the opposite of 3 is -3.but -3 is not the number of destruction, as was mantis108's original question... i concede... the opposite equal and opposite of 3 is -3, but it -3 is not the number of destruction...

*hangs head lowly* :p

[Exadon]

but -3 is not the number of destruction, as was mantis108's original question... i concede... the opposite equal and opposite of 3 is -3, but it -3 is not the number of destruction...

*hangs head lowly* :p



If the number 3 is a number of creative power, then which number is the number of destructive power?




obviously it would have to be not a number... nothing... zero; for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction...

Ah but you may need to hang your head even more. Because if 3 is the number of creative power...then clearly -3 must be the number of destruction power

if you admit it is not, you are killing your theory :)

p.s. (I know another edit)
I thank you for admitting that -3 is the opposite of 3 hahaha. If you did not, I was going to ask if this was the reason you hated public schools, because they failed you (just joking :) )

[uki]

*straightens spine and stands tall*


if you admit it is not, you are killing your theory.not quite... it has only been refined and honed because of the fine details involved that i was not quite aware of... the overall fundamentals still stand, there is no number that is a destructive number, there is only zero.

[Exadon]

*straightens spine and stands tall*
not quite... it has only been refined and honed because of the fine details involved that i was not quite aware of... the overall fundamentals still stand, there is no number that is a destructive number, there is only zero.

hahah ok, I give up. Enjoy your Triology,

[uki]

hahah ok, I give up. Enjoy your Triology,i will and thanks for the lesson on opposite whole numbers. :)

[jo]

All you need is Three Step Arrow and Eighteen Points.

Its sad that so many know the forms but not the meaning.

- jo

[SimonM]

It isn't my theory, it is Zaharia Sitchin's theory,

And it bears remembering that Zacharia Sitchin is a tool; the amount he knows about Sumeria couldn't fill the memory of a 5 1/4" floppy disk.

[Scott R. Brown]

And it bears remembering that Zacharia Sitchin is a tool; the amount he knows about Sumeria couldn't fill the memory of a 5 1/4" floppy disk.

While his theories are clearly a stretch, he is an expert on the Sumerian language. He knows more about Sumerian history than 99.999% of the people on the planet. He just interprets the history literally, that is all!

Just because he has unorthodox ideas does not make him a tool! The challenging of established ideas is a valuable part of scholarship. Without it ideas stagnate and we get a society of automatons. Buddha was reviled in his day, as was Jesus, Copernicus, and many other thinkers who bucked their society's dominant "thought police"!

[David Jamieson]

While his theories are clearly a stretch, he is an expert on the Sumerian language. He knows more about Sumerian history than 99.999% of the people on the planet. He just interprets the history literally, that is all!

Just because he has unorthodox ideas does not make him a tool! The challenging of established ideas is a valuable part of scholarship. Without it ideas stagnate and we get a society of automatons. Buddha was reviled in his day, as was Jesus, Copernicus, and many other thinkers who bucked their society's dominant "thought police"!

No he's not. He's a tool and he's been trashed by scholars of ancient languages on several occasions now. His translations are utterly wrong and his body of work is crap. BUt that doesn't stop loads of tools from being what they read and persisting in their regurgitation of his already disproven dross.

But, people are free to believe what they like.

enjoy your sitchin and spaghetti monsters. lol

"idiots" is a soft term. :)

[uki]

No he's not. He's a tool and he's been trashed by scholars of ancient languages on several occasions now. His translations are utterly wrong and his body of work is crap. BUt that doesn't stop loads of tools from being what they read and persisting in their regurgitation of his already disproven dross.so he's been trashed by the other people who translate the sumerian texts... hmmm... what are their names? do they have any books on the subject? i am curious to see what others have translated from the texts... remember, just because everyone else trashes his works, doesn't mean that they are infact wrong. :)

[David Jamieson]

so he's been trashed by the other people who translate the sumerian texts... hmmm... what are their names? do they have any books on the subject? i am curious to see what others have translated from the texts... remember, just because everyone else trashes his works, doesn't mean that they are infact wrong. :)

you are a lazy minded moron. Why should i even bother to answer you with anything more than to tell you what a lazy minded moron you are?

You cling to your nonsense no matter how much someone puts reality in front of your stupid face.

so go **** yourself moron. Go run to your prison planet site or rense and live in your pile of crap that you so love.

If you had half a friggin brain you would know what I am talking about when I say that Sitchin has been destroyed by academia, but because you cling to your rainbow and unicorn armageddon fantasies, you fall into the category of not worth it beyond telling you what an idiot you are.

thank you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you are a lazy minded moron. Why should i even bother to answer you with anything more than to tell you what a lazy minded moron you are?

You cling to your nonsense no matter how much someone puts reality in front of your stupid face.

so go **** yourself moron. Go run to your prison planet site or rense and live in your pile of crap that you so love.

If you had half a friggin brain you would know what I am talking about when I say that Sitchin has been destroyed by academia, but because you cling to your rainbow and unicorn armageddon fantasies, you fall into the category of not worth it beyond telling you what an idiot you are.

thank you.

Jeez dude...seriously...
Too much yang in your tea today ?:confused:

[David Jamieson]

Jeez dude...seriously...
Too much yang in your tea today ?:confused:

not at all.
I don't suffer idiots lightly. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

not at all.
I don't suffer idiots lightly. :)

This forum must drive you crazy then !!
LOL !

[uki]

Jeez dude...seriously...
Too much yang in your tea today ?either that or he isn't get any of the other morning good stuff before he gets out of bed. :D


you are a lazy minded moron. well a healthy good morning to you too.


Why should i even bother to answer you with anything more than to tell you what a lazy minded moron you are?so does this mean you don't know of any other people who have translated the sumerian texts that have the credibilty to debunk sitchins works?


You cling to your nonsense no matter how much someone puts reality in front of your stupid face.so are you implying that reality is a fixed absolute now? what is reality mr. jamieson?


so go **** yourself moron.my my, what a professional vocabulary you have sir... is cursing on these forums a violation of the forum rules? personal attacks and derogatory comments directed at other members? you seem to want everyone else banned for these infractions, yet you are guilty of them aswell.


Go run to your prison planet site or rense and live in your pile of crap that you so love.i don't visit those sites at all... they are a bit too biased for me good sir.


If you had half a friggin brain you would know what I am talking about when I say that Sitchin has been destroyed by academia, but because you cling to your rainbow and unicorn armageddon fantasies, you fall into the category of not worth it beyond telling you what an idiot you are.and you cling to the notion that you are some hot-shot honcho sport of superiour intellectual capability... your point here?


thank you.your welcome.


I don't suffer idiots lightly.you should work on your emotional stability and mental discipline... it might help alleviate your suffering.

[Exadon]

your welcome.


You're welcome.
Sorry had to do it :D


Yesterday is history tomorrow is a mystery but today is a gift. that is why it is called the present.

Rock on kung fu panda.

[uki]

You're welcome.
Sorry had to do it.we all make mistakes... some just more so than others. :p

[David Jamieson]

uki, you should be working on your own education.


The work of Zecharia Sitchin was brought to my attention just over a year ago, shortly after I completed my book, The Façade. As a trained scholar in ancient Semitic languages with a lifelong interest in UFOs and paranormal phenomena, I was naturally enthused about Mr. Sitchin's studies, particularly since I had also heard he was a Sumerian scholar. I thought I had found a kindred spirit, perhaps even a guide to navigating the possible intersection of my academic disciplines with ufology, a discipline unfairly ridiculed by the academic mainstream. Unfortunately, I was wrong.

What follows will no doubt trouble some readers. I have come to learn that Mr. Sitchin has an avid following, and so that is inevitable. Nevertheless, I feel it my responsibility as someone who has earned credentials in the languages, cultures, and history of antiquity to point out the errors in Mr. Sitchin's work. Indeed, this is the academic enterprise. I have yet to find anyone with credentials or demonstrable lay-expertise in Sumerian, Akkadian, or any of the other ancient Semitic languages who positively assesses Mr. Sitchin's academic work.

The reader must realize that the substance of my disagreement is not due to "translation philosophy," as though Mr. Sitchin and I merely disagree over possible translations of certain words. What is at stake is the integrity of the cuneiform tablets themselves, along with the legacy of Sumer and Mesopotamian scribes. Very simply, the ancient Mesopotamians compiled their own dictionaries - we have them and they have been published since mid-century. The words Mr. Sitchin tells us refer to rocket ships have no such meanings according to the ancient Mesopotamians themselves. Likewise when Mr. Sitchin draws connections between Sumero-Mesopotamian gods and stories that simply do not exist in the literature (like insisting the Sumerians believed there were twelve planets and having the Anunnaki living on Nibiru, the supposed 12th planet), my argument with him is one that opposes such fabrications, not just one how words are translated. To persist in embracing Mr. Sitchin's views on this matter (and a host of others) amounts to rejecting the legacy of the ancient Sumerian and Akkadian scribes whose labors have come down to us from the ages. Put bluntly, is it more coherent to believe a Mesopotamian scribe's definition of a word, or Mr. Sitchin's?

I do believe that Mr. Sitchin has done some kind of work in the ancient languages (I have never seen academic credentials in the form of degrees or transcripts), but some of the mistakes he makes are at so basic a level of language knowledge that I sincerely doubt he knows ANY of the ancient languages he says he does. I'm guessing that with Hebrew, for example, Mr. Sitchin (being Jewish) can sight-read the language but doesn't understand ancient Biblical Hebrew grammar (much like many English readers don't have a real grasp of the mechanics of English grammar). I have seen little that convinces me that Mr. Sitchin knows any ancient languages, much less demonstrating that he is a language "expert". I say this because of Mr. Sitchin's linguistic mistakes (see below), and because he rarely interacts with scholarly articles pertaining to any linguistic material in the texts he uses. Unfortunately, there are even points he just makes up.

The reader should also know that I believe that the strange phenomena people have experienced in antiquity through the present day with respect to "UFOs" and "aliens" are real. The Facade offers an alternative paradigm to these phenomena, one that, contrary to Mr. Sitchin's reconstruction, CAN be defended (if the connections be legitimate) through ancient texts.


here's more from the author: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/sitchinerrors.htm

not that it would matter if I put up the other contextually important information in regards to this poppy**** you've been attempting to seed, seeing as you are perfectly happy and smug in your willful ignorance.

bloody fool.

[uki]

uki, you should be working on your own education. bloody fool.should be working on your communication skills which are at best... lacking... your immaturity level is absolutely astounding...

[David Jamieson]

should be working on your communication skills which are at best... lacking... your immaturity level is absolutely astounding...

whatever trollboy.

listen, there's ton's of sites out there for you retarded tinfoil hat idiots.

why don't you run along and play with your ufo models and your evil pope action figures.

[uki]

whatever trollboy.

listen, there's ton's of sites out there for you retarded tinfoil hat idiots.

why don't you run along and play with your ufo models and your evil pope action figures.i am having much more fun over here these days... i like sticking you like a voodoo doll. :p

[David Jamieson]

i am having much more fun over here these days... i like sticking you like a voodoo doll. :p

so you're here to cause problems with other forum members?

what an odd reason to be here.

[uki]

so you're here to cause problems with other forum members?i am here to associate with other martial artists and since other martial artists tend to have minds, naturally we are not all in agreement and as long as you take the jabs at me, i'll throw them back at you... see how easy that was.


what an odd reason to be here.only to you.

[Scott R. Brown]

No he's not. He's a tool and he's been trashed by scholars of ancient languages on several occasions now. His translations are utterly wrong and his body of work is crap. BUt that doesn't stop loads of tools from being what they read and persisting in their regurgitation of his already disproven dross.

But, people are free to believe what they like.

enjoy your sitchin and spaghetti monsters. lol

"idiots" is a soft term. :)

You are the only tool I know David!

Do not confuse being familiar with someone's published works with agreeing with their opinion. I read up on a broad spectrum of topics.

If I'll read anything you have to say you know I'll read just about anything!

[taai gihk yahn]

We can thank the Sumerians and their base 12 mathematics for the 360* circle. We could just as easily have a metric circular measure and make it 1000 degrees, or any other base ten multiple.

whatever you say, I've still got your number, Brown...

[sanjuro_ronin]

We can thank the Sumerians and their base 12 mathematics for the 360* circle. We could just as easily have a metric circular measure and make it 1000 degrees, or any other base ten multiple.

It would have been 300, not 1000.
:D

[Scott R. Brown]

whatever you say, I've still got your number, Brown...

Well give it to me so I can play the lottery! I'll share the proceeds.....I promise!:D

[David Jamieson]

You are the only tool I know David!

Do not confuse being familiar with someone's published works with agreeing with their opinion. I read up on a broad spectrum of topics.

If I'll read anything you have to say you know I'll read just about anything!

yes scott, you tool. you'll read toothpaste tube and then write a 6 page 2000 word boring as dirt dissertation about the tube and it's features.

:rolleyes:

still crying about being called a pompous ass I see? lol
whatever.

uki, uh, what martial arts do you do? You don't do any as far as I can read and what you've written here. You like to juggle, build patios and post pictures of trees and pasty children all over the place but not a word of style, attributes, teachers, etc etc.

fellow martial artists? You don't have any because you aren't a "fellow" in the martial arts to begin with. You're a deluded individual with a hard on for apocalypse.

lol. weirdos. Hey I know, why don't you and brown run off and give each other handjobs and tell each other how smart you each are.

meanwhile the rest fo us will just puke in this bag here. :rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

yes scott, you tool. you'll read toothpaste tube and then write a 6 page 2000 word boring as dirt dissertation about the tube and it's features.

:rolleyes:

still crying about being called a pompous ass I see? lol
whatever.

In your dreams dip$hit!:p

[David Jamieson]

In your dreams dip$hit!:p

ah the inevitable retort, because lardboy that you are, you can't resist riding off on your sisters little pink bike and once you are at a distance you shout epithets.

whatever chubby. lol

[Scott R. Brown]

ah the inevitable retort, because lardboy that you are, you can't resist riding off on your sisters little pink bike and once you are at a distance you shout epithets.

whatever chubby. lol

You will note that YOU are the tool that follows me around harassing me! I merely respond to your immature harangues!

[uki]

uki, uh, what martial arts do you do?the ones that you learn by observing nature and put into practice... a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick... walking circle with a sliding step is walking the circle with a sliding step... a chicken step here and a nailing step there, grab a monkey by the toes and you'll get a tiger in your hair.

You don't do any as far as I can read and what you've written here.i don't have to explain myself to you. practice and training is personal... not to be flaunted for others to judge.


You like to juggle, build patios and post pictures of trees and pasty children all over the place but not a word of style, attributes, teachers, etc etc.my style attributes are listed in my profile... my patio that i am building is one place i train my forms. my teachers have been people, the wind, clouds, mushrooms, comets, and trees... everyone asks for credentials as a way of measuring up to someone and since you can't measure up to me, you resort to name calling and degrading statements or comments.


fellow martial artists? You don't have any because you aren't a "fellow" in the martial arts to begin with.just because you fail to find a label for me does not mean i am not a practicing martial artist. i follow the old ways where you keep things to yourself... i don't take credit in my teachers or in another mans style... some things are better kept to yourself. i don't claim anything other than i have been practicing in this lifetime for over a decade now, but i suppose i could be fair enough to say that i have my foundations built on the principles of bagua, hsing-i, and what is commonly acknowledged as longfist, but so many discrepancies arise as to which version is correct and wether or not it stems from the contemporary wushu or an actual village style. once you start bringing in style names, that is where the fighting and bickering starts. martial arts is like painting or drawing, no one does it the same, each of us has our own expressions based on the mediums and canvas we tend to use... it's not what you train, it's how you train.

You're a deluded individual with a hard on for apocalypse.we all got a hard on for something...

of course these answers will not measure up to your set of preconcieved standards, but it matters not... what matters is that i know where i stand, what i train, and what i am capable of doing. take it as you will...

[Luk Hop]

... what matters is that i know where i stand, what i train, and what i am capable of doing. take it as you will...


Well said.

[SimonM]

he is an expert on the Sumerian language.

Actually he's really not. His theories hinge on what other scholars in the field, real experts in the Sumerian language, have characterised as consistent and significant mistranslation.

[SimonM]

so he's been trashed by the other people who translate the sumerian texts... hmmm... what are their names? do they have any books on the subject? i am curious to see what others have translated from the texts... remember, just because everyone else trashes his works, doesn't mean that they are infact wrong. :)


Start here for a thorough treatment of his linguistic errors. (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/sitchinerrors.htm)

Although his criticism is of the interpretation of the cyllinder seal rather than linguistic issues you might also want to look at the work of Dr. Michael S. Heiser.

Stitchin's genomic argument has been thoroughly critiqued by Steven L. Salzburg and others.

[Scott R. Brown]

Actually he's really not. His theories hinge on what other scholars in the field, real experts in the Sumerian language, have characterised as consistent and significant mistranslation.

Yeah, I looked it up! I had a false presumption he was a Sumerian scholar. I had not read that, but thought I had heard it somewhere. I can see I was incorrect.

[SimonM]

No problemo man. :)
Another good link on Sitchin. (http://www.skepdic.com/sitchin.html)

[David Jamieson]

the only language that Sitchin may be able to sight read is the Hebrew because he is Jewish and as part of the cultural tradition, you do Hebrew studies through your boyhood to ensure that you understand what's going on in shul, especially if you go to conservative or orthodox services which are entirely in Hebrew.

most observant Jews, if not all observant Jews will send their kids to Hebrew school to learn the language in order to facilitate their understanding.

It has been noted that Sitchin starts at that point and jumps and veritably leaps huge chasms in linguistics based on his understanding of hebrew.

just pointing it out....

[uki]

herein does lie the fundamental flaw as i see it... from his own .com site...


Mike Heiser earned the M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 2004. Before attending the UW-Madison, Mike earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields: Ancient Israel and Egyptology). Mike was hired as the Academic Editor of Logos Bible Software shortly after completing his Ph.D. Before joining Logos, Mike spent twelve years teaching biblical studies, history, and biblical languages on the undergraduate level. Mike’s main research interests are Israelite religion (especially Israel’s divine council), contextualizing biblical theology with Israelite and ancient Near Eastern religion, biblical languages, ancient Semitic languages, textual criticism, comparative philology, and Second Temple period Jewish literature. His dissertation was entitled, "The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature.” The dissertation sought to discern the ancient Israelite background to Judaism's "Two Powers in Heaven" teaching.
i am a skeptic of skeptics, especially ones who have only recieved their degree in 2004 from an american university to say the least... i have a pet peeve to paper brains handed out by biased universities that reflect the mentalities of the ignorant system that they represent; biased teachers teach biased things. :)

[SimonM]

So your criticism of Heiser is that because he has a recent education in the topics that Sitchin argues from ignorance on he must be wrong?

There is none so blind as those who don't want to see... :rolleyes:

Tell me Uki, what do you BELIEVE is necessary to get a PhD these days?

[Exadon]

biased teachers teach biased things. :)
Everyone is biased. Everyone who teaches is biased.

Everyone , Everyone, Everyone.

Everything you have learned UKI is from biased information, you post biased post, and you give sources that are biased to what they believe in.

Bad points are bad :(

[uki]

So your criticism of Heiser is that because he has a recent education in the topics that Sitchin argues from ignorance on he must be wrong?i never said he was wrong, i merely said i am skeptical of skeptics... i question everything and everyone, even sitchin.


There is none so blind as those who don't want to see... perhaps you ponder what you have written there. :)


Tell me Uki, what do you BELIEVE is necessary to get a PhD these days?a healthy amount of money and a few friends can ensure anything. :D


Everyone is biased. Everyone who teaches is biased. yes everyone is, but not everything.


Everything you have learned UKI is from biased information, you post biased post, and you give sources that are biased to what they believe in. most of my learning stems from observing nature and what springs from my own internal well of understanding(we all have one)... nature is not biased in any shape or form.


Bad points are bad.good and bad are two ends of the same stick...

[David Jamieson]

Man I hope Uki never needs surgery, cause, he'll die! He won't trust that young surgeon and he''' not sign the waiver until there's a witchdoctor and a psychic surgeon available.

:p

:rolleyes:

so, uki, you didn't finish high school let alone attend college or uni right?

[Exadon]

yes everyone is, but not everything.
most of my learning stems from observing nature and what springs from my own internal well of understanding(we all have one)... nature is not biased in any shape or form.


Yup, but you are biased in what you want to see. (Example the opposite of -3 being 0 is something you wanted to see, but is not true). Thus even though nature may not be biased, your perspective of nature is. Clearly your "internal well of understanding" has led you in the wrong direction before, and thus can be viewed as a "bias well of understanding"

because you are human, you are biased. Clearly you must be. How can we all observe this same nature, the same state of life and all come up with different answers?

Oh and by the way no you don't learn from nature if you are sourcing it from online journals :P unless the internet grows on trees


good and bad are two ends of the same stick...

yes, and the ass and the head are 2 ends of a person :) but I rather be ahead than an ass!

[SimonM]

a healthy amount of money and a few friends can ensure anything. :D

For a BA this is true enough...
For a masters in the UK it's true though you would have trouble getting a masters in a school in the USA or Canada with that... this is because the masters is really a non-degree in most UK schools.

For a PhD you couldn't be more mistaken. I really wish it were that simple to get a doctorate but it's not. Seriously.

[uki]

(Example the opposite of -3 being 0 is something you wanted to see, but is not true)simon has my response to this in his signature. :p


Clearly your "internal well of understanding" has led you in the wrong direction before, and thus can be viewed as a "bias well of understanding"highly doubtful, but as it is a given right, each to their own.


because you are human, you are biased. Clearly you must be. How can we all observe this same nature, the same state of life and all come up with different answers? not everyone communicates with the same words or in the same language of expression, hence difficulties arise translating the meaning behind all that we say... much like the metaphorical lesson from the story of the tower of babel which has lead to the current state of mis-communication. :)


Oh and by the way no you don't learn from nature if you are sourcing it from online journals :P unless the internet grows on treesobviously you are attempting to trip me up on my own words... it won't happen; you understand perfectly well what i am conveying here...


yes, and the ass and the head are 2 ends of a person :) but I rather be ahead than an ass!well if you are only the head... how will you release the poop that builds up in it?

[Exadon]

highly doubtful, but as it is a given right, each to their own.

It is not doubtful because it already happened. My point being that if I never said anything about whole numbers (as I was the only one who posted it) you would go on to believe what you said to be right. And this knowledge came from your "well". It proves the biased spin we can put on anything to try to make it fit our views, our facts.



obviously you are attempting to trip me up on my own words... it won't happen; you understand perfectly well what i am conveying here...


Nope I am not trying to trip your words. I mean what I say. You read online journals that agree with you and help form your biased opinion. Many of the information from your OP you could not have learned on your own...or just by going out side to view nature.

If I recall (I don't feel like re reading it) you bring up many things including a war in the past...clearly you would have had to read a book, or go on the internet to find said information. Then put a biased spin on what you read.

Also the author that you read it from had a biased spin on the story told as well. Thus , no matter how hard you try to fight it, you have many biased sources that fill your "well" and it is proven by information you show us. This information you gathered ...not just by going on a nature hike.



well if you are only the head... how will you release the poop that builds up in it?
I really only said this because your point of "good and bad are on the same stick" seems silly to me. To say someones source of information is biased ...but then provide biased information of your own is well...a bad point.

Who cares if they are on the same stick...does not mean a bad point is worth giving!

[Mr Punch]

There are 108 desires in Buddhism, therefore 108 moves in many styles' forms, but why 108?

What's the significance of the number? And is it only Buddhist? Is there any connection with 18, which is the supposed number of the Lo Han Quan and the number of chapters in the Bhagavad Gita?

Anyone?

[David43515]

Always wondered about that myself. Hmmmm.

[Scott R. Brown]

http://astrologyforthesoul.com/vp/mysticalnumber108.html

"The early Vedic sages were renowned mathematicians and in fact invented our number system. 108 was definitely the number of choice for this simple reason: 108 represents the whole of existence. Here's some interesting reasons why:

1. The number 9 represents wholeness and 108 when added together equals 9. 1+0+8 = 9. Interestingly, if you multiply 9 times ANYTHING, the answer is always 9 when you add the numbers together. Try it! 1x9= 9. 2x9=18 1+8=9. 285x9=2565 2+5+6+5=18 1+8=9. 8543x9=76887 7+6+8+8+7=36 3+6=9 The logic behind this is that 9 represents wholeness or God and God times anything is always God since God is all there is!

2. The 9 planets travelling through the 12 signs constitutes the whole of existence. 9 x 12 = 108

3. The 27 nakshatras or lunar constellations spread over the 4 elements - fire, earth, air, water or the 4 directions - north, south, east, and west. This also constitutes the whole of existence. 27 x 4 = 108

4. Consider the powers of 1, 2, and 3 in math: 1 to 1st power = 1; 2 to 2nd power = 4 (2x2); 3 to 3rd power = 27 (3x3x3). 1x4x27 = 108. The logic behind this is that 1 represents 1 dimensional reality, 2 represents 2 dimensional reality, 3 represents 3 dimensional reality. When you mulitply their powers together then you encompass the whole of existence.

5. The universe is made up of 108 elements according to ancient texts. The current periodic table claims a few more than 108.

6. The diameter of the Sun is 108 times the diameter of the earth (give or take a few miles). "

[Jimbo]

I believe the numerological rounding up to the number 9 is also a reason for the numbers 18, 36, and 72 being significant in some styles.

[mawali]

There are 108 desires in Buddhism, therefore 108 moves in many styles' forms, but why 108?

What's the significance of the number? And is it only Buddhist? Is there any connection with 18, which is the supposed number of the Lo Han Quan and the number of chapters in the Bhagavad Gita?

Anyone?

Mr WingChun from Arizona (I believe-vajramusti) wrote an article many years ago about the 108 numerical significance of such. From Vedic tradition to Buddhist where it spread to SEAsia and hinterlands.

As I noted earlier, Long Form taijiquan (example) is not necessarily 108. It depends on how you count it!

[PlumDragon]

A lot of 108 forms talk about having 108 pressure points, split up into 2 groups of 36 and 72 for a number of reasons based on who you talk to and how far removed from reality they are.

In some of my past training, for warmup we would perform 108 hand exercises, which was generally our 18 basic hand positions, performed 3 times each on both hands, which comes out to 108. Theres just a zillion ways you can come out to 108...Or any other number for that matter.

[hskwarrior]

there are also 36 triad oath's as well

[SPJ]

at first, there are front and rear (2), upward and downward or forward and backward--

there are left and right (2)

there are high, mid and low. (3)

there are 8 directions N, S, W, E, and NW, NE, SW, SE. (8)

so 2x2x3x8=96

plus 12 continuation/transfer moves

then you have 108 postures of forms

--

[SPJ]

start and end (2)

forward and backward or left and right (2)

upward and downward (2)

4 directions (N S W E)

2x2x4=16

16+2=18

[SPJ]

at first, there are front and rear (2), upward and downward or forward and backward--

there are left and right (2)

there are high, mid and low. (3)

there are 8 directions N, S, W, E, and NW, NE, SW, SE. (8)

so 2x2x3x8=96

plus 12 continuation/transfer moves

then you have 108 postures of forms

--

the 8 can also be body parts: head, wrist, fist, elbow, chest/back, hip, knee, foot etc

[David Jamieson]

It's related to numerology.

[TenTigers]

I believe Pvt. Benjamin Buford (Bubba) Blue named 108 different ways to prepare shrimp....

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Ah, numbers... Check this out.

:108 / 1 = 108 (reduces to 9)
:108 / 2 = 54 (reduces to 9)
:108 / 3 = 36 (reduces to 9)
:108 / 4 = 27 (reduces to 9)
:108 / 5 = 21.6 (reduces to 9)
:108 / 6 = 18 (reduces to 9)
:108 / 7 = 15.4285714 (repeating; does not reduce to 9)
:108 / 8 = 13.5 (reduces to 9)
:108 / 9 = 12 (reduces to 3, not to 9; could be representative of the whole as modeled by Yin, Yang and Qi, ie the Dao.)

I wouldn't be surprised if 108 was the smallest number you could do that with. Also interesting is the fact that 7 does not fit perfectly.

[hskwarrior]

1080 also adds up to 9.

[TenTigers]

1080 also adds up to 9.
so does 10800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000.
this is freakin amazing!

[hskwarrior]

silly man....silly silly man

[Lucas]

i thot uki would be all over it, isnt he a number guy?

[David Jamieson]

hey! 360 adds up to 9 as well!

hey, 9x12 =108!

hey 108 x 3 = 324!!!

hey 324 adds up to 9 too!

dang!

with just this: 0123456789

I can head off into infinity!

[hskwarrior]

shhhhhhit 9+0= 9.....i thought you knew

[David Jamieson]

108x3 =324 +(9x4) = 360 + the third prime number = 365 which adds up to 14 which adds up to 5 which is the third prime number!

OMG, the entire universe is collapsing into my anus now!!! Help!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

thats a big anus....**** man!!! will you pick your anus up off the ground!?!?!?!?!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

OMG, the entire universe is collapsing into my anus now!!! Help!!!!!

Quick, call 2!


...erm, I mean 911!


...before it vanishes up your rectum!

[David Jamieson]

whew...I thought I was in trouble, but apparently the large universe sucking anus is manifesting itself in the Palin household.

Lucky me! Not so lucky for her. :D

[SPJ]

there are many ways to reach 108.

but 1+0+8= 9 is why . 9 means for ever or infinite as pointed out.

--

[dimethylsea]

108 Moves or Form sections in Othodox Gao/Guanghua Baguazhang.

[Scott R. Brown]

108 is half of how long I am going to live!!! So technically, it is half of eternity!:eek:

[uki]

it's all about the ennead... the number nine - the number of change... ah, but what do i know... everyone knows numerology is bullsh!t. :rolleyes:

:p

[Scott R. Brown]

... everyone knows numerology is bullsh!t.

I'll bet you learned that from numerology, didn't you?:eek:

[chusauli]

You fools! :)

108 is the number of positions in the Kama Sutra! :eek:

[Lucas]

okay, he wins

[ghostexorcist]

The Monkey King has the 72 transformations.

Pigsy has the 36.

Both of those added up ... you guessed it.

[David Jamieson]

You fools! :)

108 is the number of positions in the Kama Sutra! :eek:

pics or it didn't happen buddy.

[uki]

them old ancient guys were on to something...

[Mr Punch]

You guys...

[shoots PC]

[xiao yao]

Does anyone know the significance of the number 36 in kung fu or chinese medicine/philosophy etc?

Ive heard its related to Yi Jing, but not sure how or why

[Crosshandz]

Multiples of 9 feature strongly in Chinese Martial arts due to the importance of 9 in Chinese philosophical thought. 36, 72, 108 all numbers you'll see constantly in Chinese martial arts.

[SPJ]

12 animals a cycle

12x2 = 24

12x3 = 36

12x4 = 48

12x5 = 60

12x 6 = 72

12x 7 = 84

12 x 8 = 96

12x 9 = 108

so when you compile your forms or routines

you set your basic 4 or basic 12 moves

then vary them or derive more from them.

you then have 24 postures

48 postures

and 108 postures

etc etc.

[David Jamieson]

9 is the significance.

9 is the highest number.
multiples of it are given the attributes of the original.

9x1=9
9x2=18
9x3=27
9x4=36
9x5=45
9x6=54
9x7=63
9x8=72
9x9=81

read the results left number descending right number ascending.

why it's a mathematical cats cradle! lol.

[hskwarrior]

For some of us:

36 (6+3 = 9) = HEAVEN

72 (7+2= 9)= Earth

108 (8+1 = 9) = the sum of the first two numbers for "Association"

9 breaks down to 3


The alleged origin can be borrowed from the Chinese notion that there are 36 celestial Gods.... and 72 terrestial baneful (fatal) influences.

[Hebrew Hammer]

This is a great question or great timing...had a similar question...

What about the number 5? 5 animal styles, 5 demon bag..etc

[David Jamieson]

For some of us:

36 (6+3 = 9) = HEAVEN

72 (7+2= 9)= Earth

108 (8+1 = 9) = the sum of the first two numbers for "Association"

9 breaks down to 3


The alleged origin can be borrowed from the Chinese notion that there are 36 celestial Gods.... and 72 terrestial baneful (fatal) influences.

Hey Frank, for your noodle, in my post, add all the single digits in the resulting numbers from the multiplication. they all = 9

[David Jamieson]

This is a great question or great timing...had a similar question...

What about the number 5? 5 animal styles, 5 demon bag..etc

When (if) you were getting your mitzva remember "18" and multiples of it as your monetary gift?

[hskwarrior]

Hey Frank, for your noodle, in my post, add all the single digits in the resulting numbers from the multiplication. they all = 9

of course bro.....but 9 still breaks down to 3, right?;)

[Vajramusti]

Hey Frank, for your noodle, in my post, add all the single digits in the resulting numbers from the multiplication. they all = 9
-------------------------------------------------

I actually wrote an article on this in an old Inside King Fu issue.

The 3. 9s and multiples of nine leading upto 108
are well known in numerology and ancient Indian astronomy which went
with early Buddhism to China. At one time there were many Indian astronomers in China.

The astronomy has to do with lunar cycles, including what the Greeks called the saros cycle.
Perceptions of harmony.

A copy of the article is on my website at
<www.tempewingchun.cpm>

joy chaudhuri

[David Jamieson]

of course bro.....but 9 still breaks down to 3, right?;)



There are only 9 numbers and zero.

9 breaks down by adding the last to first and next in IE 9=1+8/2+7/3+6/4+5 which is all the other single numbers.

No other number does this completely and none do it except according to where it is in the count IE: 8= 1+7/2+6/3+5 then you have to double a single to get the last one.

3 has it's significance in trinity understandings of cosmology.
Sun/Moon/Earth
Heaven/Earth/Man
Water/Land/Ether
Man/Woman/Child

Each number is given significance in all societies. Not all significant attributes from one society that ponders numbers map over to another. Otherwise, yes, they can free form be arranged and present their own anomalies to us as we do so and then we start to ascribe meaning to that.

anyway...happy new year!

2012! 20+12=32=5!
2+0+1+2=5!

5 is important this year. :-)

[Chadderz]

For some of us:

36 (6+3 = 9) = HEAVEN

72 (7+2= 9)= Earth

108 (8+1 = 9) = the sum of the first two numbers for "Association"

9 breaks down to 3


The alleged origin can be borrowed from the Chinese notion that there are 36 celestial Gods.... and 72 terrestial baneful (fatal) influences.

For most of us normal people though, it's just a number. :D

[SPJ]

some people likes 6

so

6x6 = 36

---

north east west south = 4 directions

advance and retreat = 2 ways

4+ 2 = 6

etc etc

:D

[GeneChing]

If anyone finds any more, post them here and I'll merge them in.

[mooyingmantis]

Does anyone know the significance of the number 36 in kung fu or chinese medicine/philosophy etc?

Ive heard its related to Yi Jing, but not sure how or why

Will,
In the Tanglangquan form, Luanjie, the "36 mother techniques" refer to the six characters: 剛 柔 - gāng róu (hard-soft), 陰 陽 - yīn yáng (passive-active), and 虛 實 - xū shí (void-solid/false-real). These six concepts combined with the six lines of the Yijing trigrams create the numerological formula 6 x 6 = 36.

[xiao yao]

thanks everyone

it being a multiple of 12 makes sense, as in mantis we have 12 keywords which are the foundation


mooying mantis, i was actually asking it in relation to luan jie, as im relearning that form with master zhou now and he mentioned its 36 mother techniques. i remember him saying gang/rou yin/yang xu/shi but didnt realise that was specific to luan jie.

[mooyingmantis]

mooying mantis, i was actually asking it in relation to luan jie, as im relearning that form with master zhou now and he mentioned its 36 mother techniques. i remember him saying gang/rou yin/yang xu/shi but didnt realise that was specific to luan jie.

I thought that might be what you were getting at. :)

Ba Zhou and Zhai Yao also have similar numerological ideas with 64 and 365.

[David Jamieson]

If anyone finds any more, post them here and I'll merge them in.

I love this thread now!
Especially all the passive aggresive animosity between me and Uki at the beginning!
:p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I didn't read the thread, so this may have been covred.

The number string is missing a few.

9 - 18- 27 - 36 - 54 -72 108

I have noticed that it is the Buddhist arts that seem to use this numerology. Taoist arts are based on the number 8

8 -16 - 24- 32 - 64 - 128

I found it odd that Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, coming from Shaolin was the only exception, as it is based on the number 32(8) rather than the number 9. Then I found out Zhao Kuang Yin (Sung Tai Tzu) came from a major Taoist family. His interaction with Shaolin was due to the fact that they were the "West Point" of the ancient Chinese world, rather than thier religious philosophy.

[AJM]

Why are so many techniques in the forms performed in 3's?

Is there any significance to the number 3 in Chinese culture?
The examples you gave are all of the number nine. The number of death.

[SPJ]

3 is a convenient number

1. 3 harmony tian di ren heaven earth people

2. 3 letters book san zhi jing

3. 3 heavenly bodies sun moon star

4. 3 levels/plates high mid low san pan

5. 3 branches/joints wrist, elbow, shoulder/ hip knee ankle

----

3x3 = 9

:)

[kfman5F]

Could there be a religious aspect to the number 108? I'f I'm correct, Buddhist and Rosary beads each have 108 beads. My teacher always said to attack in movements of 3.

[hskwarrior]

this might answer some questions about numbers. I update the blog weekly.


http://8stepmantis.blogspot.com/

WHATS THE MEANING OF THE LEAD HAND OF THIS GUY IN THE PICTURE?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GhzGKavuJyg/TxKBmPfR9FI/AAAAAAAAAYA/cLxS4gIqdhU/s320/103009072560.jpg

[hskwarrior]

It had everything to do with publicity and nothing to do with martial arts.

yeah not a martial hand.....but it is used somewhere else tho. LOL i thought he was claiming the Crips hahahahaha

[ShaolinDan]

I saw that in a kung fu movie once, forget which one, it was the secret sign so the rebels could know each other. It's the opposite of one finger zen. :)

[Demixl]

There are a lot of meanings for every number, in Chinese zodiac 3 isn't a lucky number, as I remember, somebody told me that is is unlucky and that 6 is a lucky number that makes your life better and beautiful. I didn't understand why they think so, till I didn't found https://www.sunsigns.org/angel-number-666-meaning/ it is telling the meaning of the number in every country, you may find it useful.

[David Jamieson]

I don't know about anyone else, but Gene, this was a blast to read through again!

Ah the good old days when we were whack! Whack I say! lol

[GeneChing]

Ah the good old days when we were whack! Whack I say! lol

This is where our dear forum here rocks. It's a searchable database so thread necromancy is a fine art, and what treasures get unburied! Can't do that on sitonmyfacebook (https://www.facebook.com/Kung-Fu-Tai-Chi-Magazine-135964689362/)or the gram (https://www.instagram.com/kungfutaichimagazine/), at least, not so easily...:o