How much weight?

[Mr Punch]

Hello all,

so the programme I'm on is alternating two different workouts with the following patterns:

5x5
4x10
3x15

Question: If I can do 3x8 can I do 5x5 with a similar progression?

So, for example: if I'm deadlifting 75kg for 8, then 80kg for 8, then 85 kg for 8, is it a good idea to go for 5x5 of

80
82.5
85
87.5
90

?

And if I can do 5x5, can I do pretty much the same weights (obviously I want to go up a bit each time) with the 4x10 and 3x15?

So then, will I be able to handle
80x10
82.5x10
85x10
87.5x10...?

If 90 was my previous personal best for 5 in the 5x5 is it a good idea to push for 90x10 at the end of a 4x10 after an appropriate rest period with a different workout in between...? Too hard I'm guessing... I know everyone's different but anyone any general advice?

Incidentally it's a hypertrophy programme: the 3x15 is in there to keep the body guessing I guess and stave of adaption. I don't really want to do the 3x15: they're a chore and I get some joint pain sometimes from the higher reps, but I guess I should stick to it.

Cheers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is really no direct "rep transfer" when it comes to strength training, 3 x 15 = 45 does not equal 4 x 10 or 5 x 8 or whatever.

You can try to work on poundages:
left 200 lbs 5 x 5 = total of 5000 lbs
so you would do with 150 lbs - 3 x 12 = 5400 lbs

But I have never been a fan of doing stuff like that.
Best to focus on the rep scheme for what your goals are.

[Mr Punch]

Thank you Mr Ronin. That's what I needed to know... guess it's trial and error time again.

[PlumDragon]

There is some published information out there regarding number of reps at a certain weight tht one can do based on their 1RM. However, Im with Ronin on this one and find those numbers to only be useful for testing purposes.

Also to add, Ronin already hinted to it, but if you vary your sets x reps too much, youll end up focusing on different results than you may want to, causing different types of "gains". So, figure out succinctly what your goals are and design your program around that.

As you mentioned in your original post, you are looking for hypertrophy. For hypertrophy, maximizing volume is key, so you want to get in 3-5 sets that take you to failure in about 8-12 reps. But dont be overzealous, be progressive about things...

[Mr Punch]

Bloody typical... there's never a good post around when you need one, then suddenly, half a dozen turn up! :( While I'm not here too! ;)

Thanks Plum Dragon. I know what my goals are: strength, strength, rehab and strength.

I'm following a year long programme designed for false beginners like me (i.e. no problems with form but have never stuck to a programme) by Alwyn Cosgrove from the book New Rules of Lifting. It's pretty good.

I've been on it for about 5 months am showing no signs of the beginners' constant gains slackening off, but I know I'm not going to late because sometimes I fail, but I'm always improving and lifting more the next time.

I've just finished the second Fat Loss programme: alternate sets of completely mismatched whole body exercises, to prevent adaptation and to burn fat more efficiently, with increasing weight and decreasing rest periods. It is to kick the metabolism into working the way I want it as a lifter and to get my body used to progressively higher levels of intensity... with the side benefit if you like, of losing you fat, and the always present goal of getting stronger.

I'm just about to start the hypertrophy part of the programme. I'm not looking for hypertrophy, and strength is this section's main goal also (all of the books workouts are so), but functionally, and especially at the beginner stages, hypertrophy = strength, providing you are concentrating on equal splits of push-pull, upper-lower and full ROM.

As to why his programme has 5-5 (upper), 4-10 (lower), 3-15 (upper), 5-5 (lower) etc etc, I read before but can't remember the science behind it. I'll read it again if I design my own programme after this one's finished... unless you want to know before then?

[Mr Punch]

For hypertrophy, maximizing volume is key, so you want to get in 3-5 sets that take you to failure in about 8-12 reps...So, on the 5x5 it might be a good idea to work up to using weights that I'd fail on in 8-12 reps for the last two or so sets?

And for the 4x10, for now, the last set should be pretty well hitting failure by the end...? Ditto the 3-15...?

Assuming I don't actually want to hit failure like, three times in one workout, because I don't think it'd be great for my body.

[PlumDragon]

but functionally, and especially at the beginner stages, hypertrophy = strength, providing you are concentrating on equal splits of push-pull, upper-lower and full ROM.Hypertrophy and "strength" are different things. As you go from low reps/max weight to high reps/low weight, you walk to road from muscular power to muscular endurance. Hypertrophy is right in the middle, partially because of the optimal volume multipliers. For optimal power, you want to be doing as many as 6 sets, 3-6 reps with long breaks in between. This will produce the most power but wont produce nearly as much hypertrophy as 8-12 rep sets will.



So, on the 5x5 it might be a good idea to work up to using weights that I'd fail on in 8-12 reps for the last two or so sets?You could do that. There are lots of ways to go about that sort of thing, but generally with low reps like that, youre pushing more weight and lifters generally have much longer breaks between sets (4-5 minutes) so they can realize a fuller recovery.



And for the 4x10, for now, the last set should be pretty well hitting failure by the end...? Ditto the 3-15...?IMO, yes. I feel the best way to gauge in real-time how much youre pushing yourself is where your failure points lie. As you get closer to 20 rep sets, it hasnt been as big an issue for me. The goal at that level of intensity is very different from doing soemthing like 5x5's.



Assuming I don't actually want to hit failure like, three times in one workout, because I don't think it'd be great for my body.I suppose youll hear different opinions about this from other people, but while it does increase injury risk to a degree, I dont feel that taking most exercises to failure is a big deal. If you can finish all the reps in each set, and you are trying to make gains, my view is, its time to consider adding 5%, or atleast adding some breakdown training, emphasizing negatives more, etc etc etc...

Keep in mind, when I say failure, I mean "temporary fatigue", the point at which your form would suffer if you did another rep.

[Mr Punch]

Hypertrophy and "strength" are different things. As you go from low reps/max weight to high reps/low weight, you walk to road from muscular power to muscular endurance. Hypertrophy is right in the middle, partially because of the optimal volume multipliers. For optimal power, you want to be doing as many as 6 sets, 3-6 reps with long breaks in between. This will produce the most power but wont produce nearly as much hypertrophy as 8-12 rep sets will.I know this, thanks.

My points were:

that for a beginner, doing workouts aimed at hypertrophy is going to make substantial strength gains too,

and that conversely, you can't have strength gains without a certain degree of hypertrophy.



There are lots of ways to go about that sort of thing, but generally with low reps like that, youre pushing more weight and lifters generally have much longer breaks between sets (4-5 minutes) so they can realize a fuller recovery.The programme I'm on is alternate sets, with equal rest between each set and the next exercises: 5 x 5 x 90 secs; 4 x 10 x 60 secs; 3 x 15 x 30 secs. Haven't worked out the guy's reasoning behind the rest periods, but everything else I've read and absorbed by him makes sense, so I'm trusting him on that one. It's part of my Lent downsizing to stop any stressing about what I'm doing: just to do more training! :D Too much friggin research! :eek:


IMO, yes. I feel the best way to gauge in real-time how much youre pushing yourself is where your failure points lie...Gotcha.


I suppose youll hear different opinions about this from other people... Keep in mind, when I say failure, I mean "temporary fatigue", the point at which your form would suffer if you did another rep.Gotcha on that too. I don't have a squat rack at my gym and I don't have a spotter, so that's usually as far as I'm safely prepared to take failure anyway.