Capoeira questions

[Chazmek]

Do you think Capoeira can be taught, learned, and utilized as an effective martial art?

I know it is usually not practiced as a fully combative style.
I know it is more of a flower style than a truly practical style.
But, I have heard many claims that, if used properly, it can indeed stand toe to toe with the more pragmatic and combat-based styles.

Thoughts?

[mawali]

There is no such art that is all encompassing but you have to look at the toughness and conditioning of the practitioner.
Why do you think the Brazilians have such a good reputation?
They have capoeira as a base art and with their toughness and BJJ conditioning and exposure, they make an excellent combination.
Capoeira is not for everyone but you have to have 'sinewy strength' to be able to see and appreciate its great benefits! Yes, capoeira is as effective as any other art. IS it better? No. You like apples and I like grapefruit! Is one better than the other. No. Each chooses what is to their liking!

[Chazmek]

I'm aware that there isn't a distinction between styles as far as "better" or "worse", but I'm wondering if Capoeira can be used in a practical manner outside of a hora (circle).
From what little experience I've had in it, capoeira seems to have little close range defense, ground work, or hand techniques.
Yes, the training and conditioning are valuable, but do the theories of movement and the specific techniques have real value in a fight if not combined with other types of MA?

[mawali]

I'm aware that there isn't a distinction between styles as far as "better" or "worse", but I'm wondering if Capoeira can be used in a practical manner outside of a hora (circle).
From what little experience I've had in it, capoeira seems to have little close range defense, ground work, or hand techniques.
Yes, the training and conditioning are valuable, but do the theories of movement and the specific techniques have real value in a fight if not combined with other types of MA?

Based on my own xperience, a 'pure' art does not exist!
What that means is that you adapt a base art (capoeira) to a functional body of work (i.e. BJJ-concept, principles applications) and you have strong fighters who can hold their own against anyone. Again, I am not talking about invincibility!
BJJ is actually the root newaza that was seen by the Brazilians (or at least Maeda in Brazil) as a 'finsihing touch' to an oppponent grounded by the kick.

My use of the definition 'better' is in function and adaptability! Just like a judo or jujitsu practitioner is more likely to be better in the long run than someone who does form/kata/taolu for the same period of time and imagines himself to be invincible! I do not discount theory but it only serves a beginners mind. You must have the conditioning followed by the muscle memory of the art grounded in periodization principles. Theory can even come after the conditioning is completed! That is one reason I tend to discount sport karate or sport taekwondo because it has a short term subjctive benefit when taken in its small zone of what we call sport. All sport is good so I am not discounting its excellent benefits.

[Mr Punch]

There is no such art that is all encompassing but you have to look at the toughness and conditioning of the practitioner.
Why do you think the Brazilians have such a good reputation?
They have capoeira as a base art and with their toughness and BJJ conditioning and exposure, they make an excellent combination.'They' do do 'they'? How many Brazilians do capoeira? And of those, how many also do BJJ? And of those how many compete seriously? And of those how many win frequently?

There are ways of judging an art's efficiency: baseless statements are not one of them.

How are you defining a base art here? What makes capoeira a base art?


Capoeira is not for everyone but you have to have 'sinewy strength' to be able to see and appreciate its great benefits!And what do you mean by this? I have friends who are good capoeiristas and have played about a bit myself... I dont have that sinewy strength especially - does that mean I can't appreciate what they are doing?! :D


Yes, capoeira is as effective as any other art. IS it better? No. You like apples and I like grapefruit! Is one better than the other. No. Each chooses what is to their liking!Apart from the truism that it isn't the art it's the person... well, that's not entirely accurate. Is ballet an effective martial art if the person doing it is well conditioned and aggressive? :D A lot of capoeira has a lot of
problems as SD.

One more question: do you practise capoeira or BJJ?

[Mr Punch]

Do you think Capoeira can be taught, learned, and utilized as an effective martial art?

I know it is usually not practiced as a fully combative style.
I know it is more of a flower style than a truly practical style.
But, I have heard many claims that, if used properly, it can indeed stand toe to toe with the more pragmatic and combat-based styles.

Thoughts?There are more fighting based styles of capoeira and there are less. I think it's angola that's the more combatitive. The conditioning, the breaking rhythms, the odd angles of attack, and some extremely devastating techs should be useful. Whether the basic principles or mindset for good SD is there or not I don't know.

[mawali]

'They' do do 'they'? How many Brazilians do capoeira? And of those, how many also do BJJ? And of those how many compete seriously? And of those how many win frequently?

There are ways of judging an art's efficiency: baseless statements are not one of them.

How are you defining a base art here? What makes capoeira a base art?

And what do you mean by this? I have friends who are good capoeiristas and have played about a bit myself... I dont have that sinewy strength especially - does that mean I can't appreciate what they are doing?! :D

Apart from the truism that it isn't the art it's the person... well, that's not entirely accurate. Is ballet an effective martial art if the person doing it is well conditioned and aggressive? :D A lot of capoeira has a lot of
problems as SD.

One more question: do you practise capoeira or BJJ?

1. In Brazil, capoeira may be considered a base art. It is the root of Brazilian struggle against oppression. Brazilians are tough nonetheless and those who have opportunity do study other arts (Japanese or otherwise) to round out their expertise and the Gracie brand of BJJ (newaza) turned out to be the better of them all. As noted, my preference is for the word 'better".

2. I know nothing about ballet so you got me there!
I can say with authority that ballet has never been martial so I am confused why you would assume that one who is well conditioned and aggressive would make a great martial artist who does ballet for entertainment or a living.

3. It is always the individual in most cases who determines the skill as opposed to blanket statements without a knowledge of some kind (basic, intermediate or advanced). Shenfa and jibengong per CMA is what determines outcome. If you do taolu only there is no way under heaven or hell you can equal someone who actually grapples, does vigorous training and applications.

4. Any sensible capoeirista (I am sure) will be able to recognize the inherent weaknesses of their and for those who competes know that Gracie BJJ and exposure is a great equalizer. I ma not saying Gracie BJJ is 'all that' but their dedication far surpassed those who rely on fancy pajama like movements and qi to mesmerize their opponents.
One need not take the whole BJJ curriculum of Gracie BJJ but using some of its tools as evidenced by the many (or few, depending on how you see it) NCAA wrestlers who took up BJJ (mainly) or shuaijiao and demolished their opponents.

5. There is something to learn from anyone or anything so I have respect for any art that the individual finds he can live long and prosper. I really do not believe or practice martial arts affiliation theology but I do see where some arts have functional utility (BJJ, Judo, Jiujitsu, shuaijiao) than others (wushu, taolu, etc)

I love wushu because I can never be that acrobatic and I find the airwork similar to one of my favourite visual representations of classical ballet! I love wushu performance art and it is breathtaking but I cannot use it! I do enjoy it despite my ability to do most of the aerial routine though when I was yourner I was able to do many of the TKD aerial kicks and now my belly is so big I cannot even balance an egg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are more fighting based styles of capoeira and there are less. I think it's angola that's the more combatitive. The conditioning, the breaking rhythms, the odd angles of attack, and some extremely devastating techs should be useful. Whether the basic principles or mindset for good SD is there or not I don't know.

I think you are correct, I recall learning that Capoeira had two main "branches" one that became more "flashy" and "dance-like" and the other that retained its unorthodox but highly effective martial applications.
I think that Discovery series "Deadly Arts" with that female Aikidoka from Quebec showed these two systems.

[mawali]

There are more fighting based styles of capoeira and there are less. I think it's angola that's the more combatitive. The conditioning, the breaking rhythms, the odd angles of attack, and some extremely devastating techs should be useful. Whether the basic principles or mindset for good SD is there or not I don't know.

From my limited knowledge of capoeira, it was more than just fighting. As a matter of fact, it was a response to brutality and a call for freedom coupled with a 'native' art that offered protection and solace, so my view is initially spiritual and philosophical.
Capoeira changed from a street art practiced by non-Europeans (those of African, indigenous tribes-they had a similar art) and those of mixed ancestry and due to immigration and new blood, it changed/evolved where it was banned because unarmed thugs often shamed those with swords and larger weapons.

More exposure caused capoeira to be initiated as part of a physical education or military self defense (sound familiar! Jingwu as public martial arts instruction becoming part of PE curriculum) and application added/combined with Asian MA to make it palatable to the larger population.
Many of the more outward movements immitated wushu (for the record), was very showy but lacked discipline in the physical world regarding self conduct.
Those masters who went forward for greater integration of capoeira as part of PE were considered 'sellouts' in some circles.

[yenhoi]

knives and trickery, good stuff!

:eek:

[Mr Punch]

Mawali, are you saying capoiera is part of a national PE curriculum in schools in Brazil? If not, what percentage of schools teach it as such?

[Mr Punch]

BTW, according to wiki, I was wrong: capoeira angola is the dancier one and capoeira regional is the more effectiveness-orientated one.

[taai gihk yahn]

if you train capoeira as it is typically trained, you will develop certain attributes that come in handy in fighting (flexibility, speed, endurance, strength), but you will lack other skills such as hitting with contact against pads / bags (again, I say typically - there may be capoeira schools that train against bags, I don't know), and the way in which they "spar" is pretty much devoid of the the principles of a "real" fight, as it is more of a flow drill without contact;

[mawali]

Mawali, are you saying capoiera is part of a national PE curriculum in schools in Brazil? If not, what percentage of schools teach it as such?

PE only means it was de-clawed from its street origin to match the Gymnasium or liceo Western European tradition of learning. Public consumption as sport became part of its resurrection. Check it out! Mass media taking excerpts and it comes off as a type of break dancing.
Capeoira angola is the base! All others are version. capoeira angola is "more traditional', more laid back, more philosophical everything appears so ineffective that when you meet a good angleiro, you wake up with stars!

All the others styles want to exhibit dominance, hegemony, which is more powerful, more this and that and they resort to upmanship to match the West European model/style of educaional methodology and pedagogy.

Just like wushu, more people seem more aware about capoeira as gymnastics!
Good or bad, let each chose their way

[Lucas]

you saw this thread right?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53702

[Chazmek]

Wow! That was friggin awesome! :eek:

[Lucas]

ya, and that was so text book capoeria (if there is a textbook on capoeria). thats what makes it beautiful is thats actually pretty much capoeria basics. the guy never saw the second spin kick coming.

must have not ever seen capoeriasts (sp)

[Chazmek]

Yeah, it looks like a basic Mei Lua Compas, but he must have just been caught off-guard.

[Lucas]

that might be one of the only times ive ever seen two spinning kicks back to back in a MMA match with complete commitment to it.

you never see that.

[GeneChing]

Click link for Capoeira vid. ;)

America's Next Top Model Cycle 12: Episode 10 Video Preview (http://www.buddytv.com/articles/americas-next-top-model/americas-next-top-model-cycle-27940.aspx)
Tuesday, April 21, 2009

This week, the girls are leaving the comfortable confines of the Top Model house and going abroad to beautiful Brazil.

While five of the girls are on cloud nine about arriving in Brazil, one girl is feeling seriously burnt out on the competition. Who do you think has lost the fire to be America's Next Top Model? My best guess is Natalie, who seems less passionate about the prize and the hoops she has to jump through to get it.

By the looks of the next video, the girls first photo shoot in Brazil is inspired by Capoeira. Capoeira is an Afro-Brazilian art form and game that involves martial arts and dance moves. By the looks of it, awkward Allison is killing the Capoeira moves and poses, which is somewhat surprising. Unfortunately, all of Allison's praise is coming from Mister Jay, who has basically had opposite opinions on the girls performance than the actual judges the entire cycle. Mister Jay says it's fabulous and wonderful and you are doing perfect, and somehow at panel the judges have a mediocre photo that they hate. On that token, perhaps Fo, who seems to be struggling in the video, will end up with the strongest photo of the week. I know that would please the tremendous number of Fo fans out there.

Last (and definitely least) we have a video of this week's Tyra's "Guide to Inner Fierceness" piece. I, for one, can't believe there is a new one of these every week, what a waste of 45 seconds. I even preferred it when Tyra pretended to do a version of the same photo shoot the girls were doing week to week. I mean who could forget Tyra's version of last season's balloon photo shoot? While Tyra and Mister Jay wanted the girls literally to hang from a ladder draped off a hot air balloon, Tyra's photo had her holding a single kid sized balloon. Classic Tyra moment.

[Askari Hodari]

Do you think Capoeira can be taught, learned, and utilized as an effective martial art?

I know it is usually not practiced as a fully combative style.
I know it is more of a flower style than a truly practical style.
But, I have heard many claims that, if used properly, it can indeed stand toe to toe with the more pragmatic and combat-based styles.

Thoughts?

There are groups that train Capoeira as a combat art explicitly. The sport applications are merely one modality. There are others that are focused more around reality-based combat.

I have trained with some of these groups.

[mawali]

If one talked to capoeira practitioners or read the historical record, one would know that capoeira was banned various times in Brazil because the unarmed practitoners (though they did have blades of various kinds) easily beat the armed guards and military personnel. The reason: Capoeira was a threat to the 'unnatural social order'.

1. Slaves, indigenous people and mixed blood people could not arm themselves so they pursued capoeira as a self defense tool
2. Palamres was a struggle against that brutality.
3. The strategy of capoeira is that it appears useless, or like a drunk man unable to balance himself but when contact is made, the true man asserts himself.
4. The 'old way' capoeiristas say "never show your skill, hide it". Cunning, feigned ignorance, etc are all part of the capoeiristas arsenal.
5. Capoeiristas at the beginning of the century were often rounded up and put in jail for one reason only. They could fight back.

The sport capoeira movement did much to defang the old ways in order to present the art as physical and acribatic movement, a good thing.
It is not that "traditional" (angola!) capoeira has been lost but one just has to look harder to learn as in all martial endeavours.

Nelson Capoeira, a noted author has noted that some capoeira regional or contemporea players play their style as angola in that they leave out the fancy acrobatics and paly just to associate and relax in the game (jogo/juego)!