Defense against the Round House

[Yoshiyahu]

In your Wing Chun Lineages how do you guys defend against Round House kick from a Muay thai guy?

How do you deflect the power or do you just move away from it!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Back in the 60's, I spent a little over a year in Vietnam.
Muay thai was the only thing they did there then. I had some of my guys come and say, Sarg you got to see this, come see. I went and that was what they wanted to show me. Some of my guys were only trained in a little bit of jujitsu and they beat the snot out of those thai fighters. A little guy about my size kept wanting to fight me for some reason, so I accomidated. He managed to kick me a couple of times, but on the third shot I jumped forward at an angle to his left and while he was standing there on one foot I hit him so hard that we thought I had killed him. They were real ****y so I took great pleasure in busting them up.
If you are skilled at punching, just shooting a straight punch will defend against a round house. You have to curl your arm to make a round house punch, so it becomes shorter.

[t_niehoff]

In your Wing Chun Lineages how do you guys defend against Round House kick from a Muay thai guy?

How do you deflect the power or do you just move away from it!

"Lineages" don't teach you how to use your WCK. The only way to learn how to do deal with that is by dealing with it in fighting. If you aren't doing it, then you don't KNOW.

If someone says they can deal with a MT roundkick, let's see them fight a MT fighter and make it work consistently. Otherwise, their opinion of how to do it is pure fantasy.

[Phil Redmond]

In your Wing Chun Lineages how do you guys defend against Round House kick from a Muay thai guy?

How do you deflect the power or do you just move away from it!
The same way I'd stop a kyokushinkai kick? jk. I said that because it seems that Muay Thai is the measure for people who can kick. There are other arts that have strong kicks. Some Kyokushinkai guys can brake baseball bats with kicks. Stopping a round kick depends on where it's aimed. It could be the legs, body, or head which require different methods.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The same way I'd stop a kyokushinkai kick? jk. I said that because it seems that Muay Thai is the measure for people who can kick. There are other arts that have strong kicks. Some Kyokushinkai guys can brake baseball bats with kicks. Stopping a round kick depends on where it's aimed. It could be the legs, body, or head which require different methods.

Quite correct, though kyokushin has been called "muay thai with a gi", LOL !
I used to demo bat breaking with round kicks, good fun though at times those things tended to go flying!

You would want to move in on a round kick, regardless of system, or move in and away on an angle, never move back.
Of course if you are the uber-tough guy, take the shot and smack the kicked with a salami.

[t_niehoff]

Quite correct, though kyokushin has been called "muay thai with a gi", LOL !
I used to demo bat breaking with round kicks, good fun though at times those things tended to go flying!

You would want to move in on a round kick, regardless of system, or move in and away on an angle, never move back.
Of course if you are the uber-tough guy, take the shot and smack the kicked with a salami.


Yes, if you really get in and spar with some good MT fighters, regardless of your style/lineage you will end up doing what the thai's do -- because they have found FROM DOING IT the effective ways of dealing with those sorts of things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, if you really get in and spar with some good MT fighters, regardless of your style/lineage you will end up doing what the thai's do -- because they have found FROM DOING IT the effective ways of dealing with those sorts of things.

Correct, the best way to find how your WC will deal with w MT fighter, for example, is to fight a GOOD MT fighter.
Common sense really.

[t_niehoff]

Correct, the best way to find how your WC will deal with w MT fighter, for example, is to fight a GOOD MT fighter.
Common sense really.

Unfortunately, common sense is far too uncommon.

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you guys have any respect for Tae Kwon Do fighters?



Unfortunately, common sense is far too uncommon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you guys have any respect for Tae Kwon Do fighters?

Some a very good, many suck ass.
Pretty much all of them can kick very well.
A lot was lost in TKD when it began to focus on the Olympics, in many ways it became a shell of its former self.
Still, don't ever think that there aren't very good TKD fighters out there.

[Yoshiyahu]

So would you say a TKD kicker would also have an equally powerful round house kick?

Also when training to get your technique down and accurate and working on timing what techniques are useful against a strong powerful round house kick in your opinion.

What techniques are totally useless or detremental to applying against Roundhouse kicks?




Some a very good, many suck ass.
Pretty much all of them can kick very well.
A lot was lost in TKD when it began to focus on the Olympics, in many ways it became a shell of its former self.
Still, don't ever think that there aren't very good TKD fighters out there.

[clam61]

Yes, if you really get in and spar with some good MT fighters, regardless of your style/lineage you will end up doing what the thai's do -- because they have found FROM DOING IT the effective ways of dealing with those sorts of things.

hmm wonder why they havent seen that a roundhouse coming from the rear leg is probably the most telegraphed attack out there. when i see MT guys defend against a roundhouse kick, a lot of times i just see them lift there leg and eat it

anything else is pure fantasy

[clam61]

Some a very good, many suck ass.
Pretty much all of them can kick very well.
A lot was lost in TKD when it began to focus on the Olympics, in many ways it became a shell of its former self.
Still, don't ever think that there aren't very good TKD fighters out there.


but 'style doesnt matter' and 'lineages dont teach you how to fight' so all a TKD guy has to do is fight a lot and then he will find out what works and become a good fighter

anything else is pure fantasy

[Phil Redmond]

Do you guys have any respect for Tae Kwon Do fighters?
I do. I was on an operation with some Korean Marines in Vietnam. I watched them train kicks. One famous TKD movie star killed a man with a kick after getting permission from a superior to fight the challenger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang_Lee
They didn't do "sport" TKD

[sanjuro_ronin]

but 'style doesnt matter' and 'lineages dont teach you how to fight' so all a TKD guy has to do is fight a lot and then he will find out what works and become a good fighter

anything else is pure fantasy

Everything matters to an extent, but yes, you are quite correct.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So would you say a TKD kicker would also have an equally powerful round house kick?

Also when training to get your technique down and accurate and working on timing what techniques are useful against a strong powerful round house kick in your opinion.

What techniques are totally useless or detremental to applying against Roundhouse kicks?

I have a 3rd degree BB in ITF TKD, I am bias.
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do. I was on an operation with some Korean Marines in Vietnam. I watched them train kicks. One famous TDK movie star killed a man with a kick after getting permission from a superior to fight the challenger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang_Lee
They didn't do "sport" TKD

Indeed, those guys were Badasses.
If I recall the name correctly, the "Tiger" division was famed for their H2H.

[t_niehoff]

hmm wonder why they havent seen that a roundhouse coming from the rear leg is probably the most telegraphed attack out there.


Go fight some decent MT fighters THEN talk about how it's the "most telegraphed attack out there." Until THEN -- until you've done that -- you really don't know what you're talking about.



when i see MT guys defend against a roundhouse kick, a lot of times i just see them lift there leg and eat it


Sometimes that's all you can do. Sometimes, you can't even do that much. Even with it being so telegraphed. ;)



anything else is pure fantasy

If you are not DOING IT, then all it can be is fantasy.

[Yoshiyahu]

I have seen some guys utlize the round house kicks from different posistions. They may not start with the roundhouse. But they may hit you with a front kick you back up or move to side or eat it then here comes the round house. Sometimes it so fast you won't have time to react. Your reflexes have to be instinctive. That comes from drilling defense against various kicks and then sparring against a skilled kicker in different long range arts. Only then will you be able to feel the kick coming. In combat kicks and punches be thrown. You have to constantly switch ranges. A good TKD fighter can continously throw consecutive roundhouse from both feet. Which is alot hard to deflect when they are coming fast and hard on both of your flanks. But again Train,practice and fight. These are tools to be able to deflect most of the kicks thrown at you...


I have to agree with Terrence sometimes it seems telegraph when we are looking from the outside but you have to actually spar a good kicker. There was this old TKD guy sparring this kid from Vietnam. The Kid is like 6'1 and pretty big in stature. His legs are hard like iron. He was throwing continous kicks non-stop at the old TKD. The kid TKD is more authenic and for fighting. The guy learn some pretty traditional stuff from korean masters years ago but he was more of point sparring. The high impact of continous attacks were overwhelming for him. In the end he got axe kicked on the nose and then side kicked in the kidney which cause the old guy to hit the ground.




Go fight some decent MT fighters THEN talk about how it's the "most telegraphed attack out there." Until THEN -- until you've done that -- you really don't know what you're talking about.



Sometimes that's all you can do. Sometimes, you can't even do that much. Even with it being so telegraphed. ;)



If you are not DOING IT, then all it can be is fantasy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In ITF TKD we throw 2 types of rear legged kicks, those that look like a "typical" round and those that use the "narrow chamber" of a front kick so that everythign looks like a front kick.
We don't use multiple rounds from both legs because they leave your face open up the middle and in ITF TKD you can punch to the face ( IN WTF you can't).
Its about a 60-40 ration of kicks to hand sin ITF, in my case it was about 50-50 and sometimes 40-60.

[clam61]

theres a bit of arrogance in you. you seem to awlays assume that you are the only one on this board who has ever fought...and fought good fighters. i have fought MT fighters. MT fighters who have trained for years. who can quantify how good they are, but they are not amateurs.

a rear leg roundhouse by nature is more easily spotted than other attacks. nothing to do with a good or bad fighter performing the kick. its like saying hte sky is blue.


Go fight some decent MT fighters THEN talk about how it's the "most telegraphed attack out there." Until THEN -- until you've done that -- you really don't know what you're talking about.



Sometimes that's all you can do. Sometimes, you can't even do that much. Even with it being so telegraphed. ;)



If you are not DOING IT, then all it can be is fantasy.

[Violent Designs]

Back in the 60's, I spent a little over a year in Vietnam.
Muay thai was the only thing they did there then. I had some of my guys come and say, Sarg you got to see this, come see. I went and that was what they wanted to show me. Some of my guys were only trained in a little bit of jujitsu and they beat the snot out of those thai fighters. A little guy about my size kept wanting to fight me for some reason, so I accomidated. He managed to kick me a couple of times, but on the third shot I jumped forward at an angle to his left and while he was standing there on one foot I hit him so hard that we thought I had killed him. They were real ****y so I took great pleasure in busting them up.
If you are skilled at punching, just shooting a straight punch will defend against a round house. You have to curl your arm to make a round house punch, so it becomes shorter.

A lot of talk .

Go figjht some real thai fighter .

[Phil Redmond]

Indeed, those guys were Badasses.
If I recall the name correctly, the "Tiger" division was famed for their H2H.
Yes the Tiger Division were bad but I was with the even badder ROK Marines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_marines#Korea
Us US Marines thought they were nuts. Even after their boot camp their Sargent's would kick and punch them while in formation. If a Sargent kicked us after boot camp it would be on.

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you also train Muay Thai?

Are you more of kicker or do you prefer the hands?


Go fight some decent MT fighters THEN talk about how it's the "most telegraphed attack out there." Until THEN -- until you've done that -- you really don't know what you're talking about.



Sometimes that's all you can do. Sometimes, you can't even do that much. Even with it being so telegraphed. ;)



If you are not DOING IT, then all it can be is fantasy.

[Matrix]

Do you guys have any respect for Tae Kwon Do fighters? As Paul said, there are some good TKD guys out there but I would think they are in a minority due to the belt factories out there. However, I would say that you should always have some respect for an opponent regardless of their style. You just can't make a blanket statement about everyone in a given style.

Bill

[Matrix]

A lot of talk .

Go figjht some real thai fighter .
How about this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v-UQ5XnLz8)?

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree thank you for your reply...

Very good to see there is some respect for TKD I know most WC threads think TKD is totally useless!



As Paul said, there are some good TKD guys out there but I would think they are in a minority due to the belt factories out there. However, I would say that you should always have some respect for an opponent regardless of their style. You just can't make a blanket statement about everyone in a given style.

Bill

[sanjuro_ronin]

As Paul said, there are some good TKD guys out there but I would think they are in a minority due to the belt factories out there. However, I would say that you should always have some respect for an opponent regardless of their style. You just can't make a blanket statement about everyone in a given style.

Bill

Agreed, its ridiculous how bad its gotten.
But there are still some hard core Dojang's out there, if you can find them.
TKD can be a very effective MA, especially when blended with Hapkido or Judo.

[t_niehoff]

Do you also train Muay Thai?

Are you more of kicker or do you prefer the hands?


I do not train MT, but have trained with MT fighters (we share training space with a MT school).

The point behind my suggestion of trying it against MT fighters is that most of the opinions offered on these forums are fantasy-based -- in other words, they are not based on having done what they are talking about (and certainly not against competent fighters). For example, people will say this or that is how you should do it but they don't say this is what I do and I find it works for me against the boxers and MT fighters I regularly spar with. The first is fantasy, it is what they imagine will work (based on their theory and unrealistic practices like chi sao) while the latter is based on reality from experience actually fighting with competent people (evidence).

Don't believe what ANYONE -- including the masters and grandmasters -- tells you. Don't believe their reasons, their theory, their stories, their legends, their claims. Don't believe it unless and until you see it for yourself done in fighting against competent fighters because that's the only way to know whether it is bullsh1t or not.

[CFT]

Don't believe what ANYONE -- including the masters and grandmasters -- tells you. Don't believe their reasons, their theory, their stories, their legends, their claims. Don't believe it unless and until you see it for yourself done in fighting against competent fighters because that's the only way to know whether it is bullsh1t or not.Ironically (is it irony?) this is what Yip Man told his students to do - go out and test it for themselves.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ironically (is it irony?) this is what Yip Man told his students to do - go out and test it for themselves.

A question that needs to be aske:
Why would you NOT do this?

Anyone that has read even a bit of TMA history knows that is what all the "martial artists of yore" did, why would you not do it now ?

[clam61]

The first is fantasy, it is what they imagine will work (based on their theory and unrealistic practices like chi sao)


why is chi sao fantasy or unrealistic

[t_niehoff]

why is chi sao fantasy or unrealistic

Chi sao is unrealistic in that it doesn't correspond to what really happens in fighting (so you are not facing what is really going to happen as it is going to happen). Your opponent is not behaving or moving or acting like he is really fighting you. It's not performed under fighting conditions (100% intensity/power, etc.).

Unrealistic exercises are fine for teaching/learning the tools of WCK (how to perform the contact actions, for example). But unrealistic exercises can't develop realistic skills. Realistic skills only come from realistic training -- training under fighting conditions (where your opponent is really doing what he would be doing in fighting as he would be doing it).

Many people take their observations of what goes on in their chi sao as giving them insight into fighting. This IMO is fantasy. Unrealistic practice can't tell you anything significant about fighting or how to really use your tools in fighting. Any speculation about fighting based on nonfighting is fantasy.

[clam61]

i agree, chi sau is not complete training for sparring. totally agree. you must practice under real conditions too

however i wouldnt say that it is completely useless for giving insight or completely void of any usefulness.

its just for learning one aspect of fighting.

[clam61]

look at my thread:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53426

[t_niehoff]

look at my thread:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53426

I've seen it. And?

[t_niehoff]

i agree, chi sau is not complete training for sparring. totally agree. you must practice under real conditions too

however i wouldnt say that it is completely useless for giving insight or completely void of any usefulness.

its just for learning one aspect of fighting.

I didn't say it was devoid of usefulness -- it is useful for teaching/learning. But it can't develop realistic (fighting) skills. Realistic skills only come from realistic training.

[Yoshiyahu]

What is realistic training?


please explain?



I didn't say it was devoid of usefulness -- it is useful for teaching/learning. But it can't develop realistic (fighting) skills. Realistic skills only come from realistic training.

[clam61]

a fight with as little rules as possible. of course if you are practicing you gotta have a few things for safety.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is realistic training?


please explain?

Kind of easy, the other guy, your partner, is trying to beat your ass and not letting you beat his ass.
:D

[t_niehoff]

What is realistic training?

please explain?

I already explained what realistic training is -- it is training under realistic conditions. Is your partner behaving or moving or acting like he is really fighting you? Most often that involves sparring (but not all sparring is realistic -- much of what I see in fact isn't) or drilling by taking snippets of sparring (lifting situations from fighting, for example, practicing passing the guard) and repeating for practice.

[Matrix]

Agreed, its ridiculous how bad its gotten.
But there are still some hard core Dojang's out there, if you can find them.
TKD can be a very effective MA, especially when blended with Hapkido or Judo.
I think TKD in the broadest sense (from a WTF perspective) has gone too far into the sport world. Too much flash over substance. What do you mean I can't punch to the head? :rolleyes: How's that for absurd. Too much emphasis on collecting forms and different coloured belts (or stripes on belts) for my liking.
However, as you so correctly stated, there are some decent places to train if you want to look for them.

Having said all that I think it would be a real mistake to assume that because someone is TKD that they don't have any skill or can't hurt you. For what it's worth, doesn't Stephan Bonnar of the UFC claim some sort of TKD background?

Cheers,
Bill

[Matrix]

What is realistic training?


please explain?Hey, you're in St. Louis. I'm sure T can give you a personal demonstration of what he means. I hope you have full dental coverage. ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Kind of easy, the other guy, your partner, is trying to beat your ass and not letting you beat his ass.
:D

i agree... your are so right. its best to practice under pressure


Hey, you're in St. Louis. I'm sure T can give you a personal demonstration of what he means. I hope you have full dental coverage. ;)

okay, great i look forward to it. i will invest in mouth piece...

[Phil Redmond]

Chi sao is unrealistic in that it doesn't correspond to what really happens in fighting (so you are not facing what is really going to happen as it is going to happen). Your opponent is not behaving or moving or acting like he is really fighting you. It's not performed under fighting conditions (100% intensity/power, etc.).

Unrealistic exercises are fine for teaching/learning the tools of WCK (how to perform the contact actions, for example). But unrealistic exercises can't develop realistic skills. Realistic skills only come from realistic training -- training under fighting conditions (where your opponent is really doing what he would be doing in fighting as he would be doing it).

Many people take their observations of what goes on in their chi sao as giving them insight into fighting. This IMO is fantasy. Unrealistic practice can't tell you anything significant about fighting or how to really use your tools in fighting. Any speculation about fighting based on nonfighting is fantasy.
Terence, please take no offense but you speak as an authority on some subjects. So I'd like to know if there are any clips of you doing any WC or other arts? I don't have any fight clips like Dale but I do "demo" the little I know. Would it be too much to ask to see clips of you explaining your points of view?
PR

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sits down with chips and a beer and awaits the response to Phil's request...:p

[Mr.Cholo]

With a gun:D

[t_niehoff]

Terence, please take no offense but you speak as an authority on some subjects. So I'd like to know if there are any clips of you doing any WC or other arts? I don't have any fight clips like Dale but I do "demo" the little I know. Would it be too much to ask to see clips of you explaining your points of view?
PR

I am not an authority. There are no authorities in WCK.

But it doesn't take an authority on WCK or fighting to know from the evidence how sound skills are developed or how to effectively train.

There are no video clips of me or my group training. And we don't do demos. My view is that if someone is really interested in what we do and if I believe they are sincere, they can visit and see for themselves. Quite frankly I don't see any point in putting up clips on youtube. Some things need to be experienced firsthand.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, you keep telling us that there are no authorities in wing chun, etc.

Buy you ARE an authority on Terence's wing chun - and we'd all like to see some of it, if you don't mind.

Not one single vid, anywhere???

[Yoshiyahu]

I would love to see what you guys do. Where do you train. I would to stop by an see what you do?


Where is your location and time so I can visit?



I am not an authority. There are no authorities in WCK.

But it doesn't take an authority on WCK or fighting to know from the evidence how sound skills are developed or how to effectively train.

There are no video clips of me or my group training. And we don't do demos. My view is that if someone is really interested in what we do and if I believe they are sincere, they can visit and see for themselves. Quite frankly I don't see any point in putting up clips on youtube. Some things need to be experienced firsthand.

[t_niehoff]

Yeah, you keep telling us that there are no authorities in wing chun, etc.

Buy you ARE an authority on Terence's wing chun - and we'd all like to see some of it, if you don't mind.

Not one single vid, anywhere???

No, I'm not an authority. As I say, there are no authorities in WCK, including the masters and grandmasters. What you don't like is that I dispute your (and your grandmaster's) authority. A person doesn't need to be an authority to dispute someone else's authority.

There are no vidoes of me doing WCK. Sorry. Nor do I have any of me playing tennis or basketball (both of which I also do regularly). You see, when I do these things I am not doing them for anyone but myself so I don't see any purpose to videotaping my athletic activities.

[t_niehoff]

I would love to see what you guys do. Where do you train. I would to stop by an see what you do?


Where is your location and time so I can visit?

We don't train to satisfy people's curiousity. You already wrote me privately asking to train with us. I told you what you need to do if you want to train with us. That's the price of admission into our private group. If you are really serious, you'll pay that price.

[clam61]

We don't train to satisfy people's curiousity. You already wrote me privately asking to train with us. I told you what you need to do if you want to train with us. That's the price of admission into our private group. If you are really serious, you'll pay that price.

oOoOoOoOoOooOOohh

[Yoshiyahu]

You said in another post that training with you guys is free of charge. An when I challenge you to spar then there is a price of admission whats up with that?
You seem to have alot of knowledge and experience in fighting. I would love to learn by fighting with you sometime. Why not share your experiences and fight with me sometime? Plus you say I should train in Muay Thai for two years before coming to train with you? Why should I take up MT my interest is WC Purely. I wish to learn more about my WC using the WC by fighting others. Not learning another new foriegn art. I mean I think Muay Thai is great art. But personally I would prefer to learn a harder style Karate over Muay Thai if I was to cross train.

Why make someone wait two years of training in Muay Thai? Do you teach Muay Thai. What school In st.louis teaches authenic Muay Thai any way where you fight every class?

Why so set on me going to learn Muay Thai before we can fight?


anyway I am located in St.Louis MO. The offer is still open lets spar sometime Teach me a thing or too. That way I can come on here tell everyone what a great fighter you are an you can back up your talk with your skill in fighting!

I guess the only way I can get you to fight is talk arrogant and pretend i am a Kung Fu Shaolin Master who can hit your pressure points from four feet away an magically disslove your clinch before you can iniatiate a take down and submit me.
Will that work Terrence. If I say I am undefeated Shaolin Monk from the Himalyas who has come to prove your Martial Arts is weak. Are can I be honest an search out sparring partners to increase my knowledge of WC by sparring with you an others on regular basis.



Qoutes for t_niehoff
Actually, in all your nonsense you did make one good point (above) -- though you don't realize it.

To practice WCK is to fight with WCK -- not doing forms, not doing drills or exercises (chi sao), but fighting (and with competent fighters).

And people who aren't fighting (with competent fighters) -- who aren't practicing WCK -- can't have an intelligent discussion with the people who are because the former (like you) have a fantasy-based "concept" of WCK and the latter a reality-based experience of WCK. The two don't mesh.


There was a post that you invited people to come train with you because you fight every time you train!



t-_niehoff posted: Our group from time to time takes on new people -- usually because someone in the group wants to bring that person in (for example, they train with them at some gym) or if they seem to be sincere, are serious about training, and very, very persistant (usually we train these guys for the new blood transfusion to the group). We've not had good luck with the latter though -- since the people in our group are die-hards in terms of our training and most people aren't looking for that level of training. We don't charge money to train.If you are serious (serious in terms of you are training to fight and will fight as part of your training from day 1 of your training, so you'll need to be in shape, prepared to take the punishment, etc.) then email me at tniehoff@gmail.com. I will respond to you. I keep of list of interested persons and when someone in our group indicates they are willing to take on someone to train, I pass on the name (persistance counts).



We don't train to satisfy people's curiousity. You already wrote me privately asking to train with us. I told you what you need to do if you want to train with us. That's the price of admission into our private group. If you are really serious, you'll pay that price.

I understand you don't train to statisfy people curiousity?why do you train then?

I am really interested NieHoff here is what you said above!
There are no video clips of me or my group training. And we don't do demos. My view is that if someone is really interested in what we do and if I believe they are sincere, they can visit and see for themselves. Quite frankly I don't see any point in putting up clips on youtube. Some things need to be experienced firsthand.

I am very interested in Training and Fighting with you guys!

Are you ready?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You seem to have alot of knowledge and experience in fighting."


***DON'T be so sure about that. Without even one single vid, there's no evidence whatsoever about anything wing chun or fighting of any kind attributable to him.

Keep that in mind.

[anerlich]

If you are really serious, you'll pay that price.

He'd have to be serious to pay the price, but he'd probably want to know that he was going to end up with something worth paying for if he paid it.

On evidence to date, a "fantastic" assumption. It would probably be better for him to weigh up the probabilities of it being worthwhile ... and no doubt end up coming to the same conclusion as the rest of us, viz. what you're selling we don't want to buy, and that the infomercials are becoming really annoying.

[Yoshiyahu]

You guys really must have a low opinion of that guy. Usually people who talk really arrognant have lots of fights. You can not be arrogant with out fighting all the time. Just being arrognant will get you into alot of scrapes and tussles. So Terrence must have had atleast some personal experiences. Any way I don't think he wants to spar with me.


We stay in the same city. So It would be no problem for me to pop up.



"You seem to have alot of knowledge and experience in fighting."


***DON'T be so sure about that. Without even one single vid, there's no evidence whatsoever about anything wing chun or fighting of any kind attributable to him.

Keep that in mind.


Yea, As for the price. He says I should join a Muay Thai School for two years. After paying tution for two years at a Muay Thai school then i can join his authenic Wing Chun group in 2011 or 2012 if he whims it. But as for joining a school I don't know of any credible Muay Thai Schools in St.louis that compete. I do better finding a MMA school that fights everyday.

There is MMA school I am looking at once I get my gear together.




He'd have to be serious to pay the price, but he'd probably want to know that he was going to end up with something worth paying for if he paid it.

On evidence to date, a "fantastic" assumption. It would probably be better for him to weigh up the probabilities of it being worthwhile ... and no doubt end up coming to the same conclusion as the rest of us, viz. what you're selling we don't want to buy, and that the infomercials are becoming really annoying.

[clam61]

You guys really must have a low opinion of that guy. Usually people who talk really arrognant have lots of fights. You can not be arrogant with out fighting all the time. Just being arrognant will get you into alot of scrapes and tussles. So Terrence must have had atleast some personal experiences.

its actually really easy to be arrogant when you are on an anonymous internet forum.





Yea, As for the price. He says I should join a Muay Thai School for two years. After paying tution for two years at a Muay Thai school then i can join his authenic Wing Chun group in 2011 or 2012 if he whims it. But as for joining a school I don't know of any credible Muay Thai Schools in St.louis that compete. I do better finding a MMA school that fights everyday.

There is MMA school I am looking at once I get my gear together.

why the hell would you join an MT school and then join a WC group. if you learn MT for years before you learn WC you will develop a lot of bad habits that you then need to correct in WC.

if you think i am full of BS then we probably have a very different view of what WC is

[Matrix]

its actually really easy to be arrogant when you are on an anonymous internet forum.He's not anonymous. He uses his real name.

[Ultimatewingchun]

and very appropriate to the subject matter of this thread:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWTELOTO_NQ

[clam61]

He's not anonymous. He uses his real name.

well my real name is james. do you know where the hell i am? no

[clam61]

and very appropriate to the subject matter of this thread:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWTELOTO_NQ

watch around 2:00 where he is in slow mo. thats what i meant by telegraphed. not that it can never work...but its a very telegraphed move nonetheless.

[Yoshiyahu]

How do you train to be prepared for round house kick in a fight?

What training allows you to recognize or feel a roundhouse kick before it fully extended.


In fighting or sparring what has worked for you in blocking or jamming a round house kick?

[clam61]

good question. its pretty simple actually. you need a sparring partner.

move around like you would normally be sparring. have him throw only roundhouse kicks at first. do it slow at first. slow enough so that your movements to counter (whatever they are) are perfect. drill this for a while and gradually increase the speed. have your partner even fake a roundhouse once in a while. this might take a long while. it might take many a few months even to get these moves stamped into your brain so that you can act without thinking.

then you can mix in other kicks..front kicks etc. so that you wont always be expecting a roundhouse.

soon you can mix in jabs, and other punches.

the key is to make sure that your technqiues are clean and done properly at first.

the reason you see many WC'ers and other martial artists sparring videos look like crap and like they are unskilled brawlers is because they have not properly trained to use their techniques in live situations. the pressure and other emotional factors gets to them and they loos control.

as a result of this, people make dumb comments like "this is what real wing chun looks like in a fight" or "this is what real fighting looks like". not true. thats what fighters look like that arent properly trained.

[Matrix]

well my real name is james. do you know where the hell i am? no what's with the attitude? :rolleyes:
Terence Niehoff is a lawyer in St Louis and people on this forum have met him. You can Google him and get more details if that's what you want to do. What you don't know is that several of the people on this forum have been here for years, have met and even trained together. It's not as anonymous as you seem to think it is.

Peace,
Bill

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting well I have not met him. I lived in St.louis all my life!!!!



what's with the attitude? :rolleyes:
Terence Niehoff is a lawyer in St Louis and people on this forum have met him. You can Google him and get more details if that's what you want to do. What you don't know is that several of the people on this forum have been here for years, have met and even trained together. It's not as anonymous as you seem to think it is.

Peace,
Bill

Actually Anerlich I have to agree with you there!!!


He'd have to be serious to pay the price, but he'd probably want to know that he was going to end up with something worth paying for if he paid it.

On evidence to date, a "fantastic" assumption. It would probably be better for him to weigh up the probabilities of it being worthwhile ... and no doubt end up coming to the same conclusion as the rest of us, viz. what you're selling we don't want to buy, and that the infomercials are becoming really annoying.


Yea aint that the truth. I but me I am somewhat arrogant in person too..what does that mean? Yea. an back to MT. I mean if i was interested in Muay Thai why on earth would come back to WC? I mean if thought MT was a superior fighting style why not stick with that. Its kinda of weird to me at a suppose it WC guy would be advocating MT over WC? I dont get it at all do you?



its actually really easy to be arrogant when you are on an anonymous internet forum.





why the hell would you join an MT school and then join a WC group. if you learn MT for years before you learn WC you will develop a lot of bad habits that you then need to correct in WC.

if you think i am full of BS then we probably have a very different view of what WC is

[Edmund]

an back to MT. I mean if i was interested in Muay Thai why on earth would come back to WC? I mean if thought MT was a superior fighting style why not stick with that. Its kinda of weird to me at a suppose it WC guy would be advocating MT over WC? I dont get it at all do you?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me - and I've done MT!

I recall a lot of discussions on here about MT and I don't think Terence ever mentioned he studied it himself at all so I don't see why he would insist that you do 2 years of it before he'd let you in his group.

[Wayfaring]

Yea, As for the price. He says I should join a Muay Thai School for two years. After paying tution for two years at a Muay Thai school then i can join his authenic Wing Chun group in 2011 or 2012 if he whims it. But as for joining a school I don't know of any credible Muay Thai Schools in St.louis that compete. I do better finding a MMA school that fights everyday.

There is MMA school I am looking at once I get my gear together.

Now, upon first read I thought I'd give Niehoff a pass here. But after thinking about it a little more, I don't think I'm inclined to.

Terence, you've put up a whole ration of cr@pola about "real fighting" here on this forum and others. You claim to have an underground group, and have stated several times that if anyone wanted to verify your skills, they could contact you privately and stop on by and see for themselves.

Now, we actually have someone that lives in the same city you do posting on this forum. He has contacted you privately and wanted to check out what you do like you've publicly postulated for many years.

And your response is "join a MT school for 2 years first, and then you can check us out"??????????? WTF_SPECIALSAUCEP4WN@GEINTH3@SS?????#@!????????

You have to as of right now be the biggest fricken' poser on the history of this forum or any other one. The biggest thing you have to be afraid of here is the same thing any poser TMA 'tard is - that you will be exposed. That someone will actually put in the effort to stop by and spar with you guys and find out that the skill level is miles below the mouth level (which of course is something we've all suspected but never had substantive proof of). Maybe we ought to contact the good folks over at Bullshido to do a little investigation here. That would be some entertainment. But you'd probably just backpedal and file restraining orders to keep people away from your scrubs. I mean how many of them have fought in any tournaments or have an amateur record? Among all the "real NHB fighters" in your group?

Virtually everyone on this forum trains at a real school that you can actually stop by and check out. It's no big secret. Stop by, train, see for yourself the skill level. And maybe we should get a poll started on this forum to see out of everyone's school's on here, what are the requirements to stop by and train? That would be an awesome poll. We could put your underground group of scrubs on here as "2 years Muy Thai prerequisite".

You know, what really makes sense here is that if your guys are so advanced in Muy Thai, as you apparantly are posturing to be, why don't you just post up the name of the Muy Thai school you train at, and people could stop by there and spar with you. Or maybe you could post up the BJJ school you guys cross train at and people could stop by and see if they know you and see the belt color and roll with you.

Like you always say, real evidence always wins out. So when you try to hide the ability to obtain real evidence, that's some serious dodgery. And it's relatively apparant what you're hiding. Lack of real skill.

Hey Knifefighter, if you're reading this, what extent of prerequisites would it take for me to stop by Caique's place where you train, congratulate him on his new red/black belt, and roll with your guys? Or the MMA place, how many years of Muy Thai would it take to train / spar with you guys? Train, get some sweat in, have a beer?

Victor / Phil, outside of someone coming in with bad intentions, you guys are open for people stopping by and training with you guys, right? Victor your Saturday fully padded sessions you'd welcome visitors to, right? Anerlich, how about Rick's place? Pretty open to spar there at whatever level someone wants to, right? If they want an all on match someone will accomodate them, or if they want to get a sweat going no big deal, right?

Now Terence how about people like me, who you couldn't use the excuse of making them go train for 2 years in Muy Thai becuase I already have? What excuse would you come up with there? 2 years BJJ? And if that doesn't work either, would I have to beat you in chess or tennis first? How lame can you get? That really shows the 'nads of a 5th grade school boy, afraid to get beat up on the schoolyard.

Geez that has to be about the most pathetic thing I've read on here in a number of years. I mean seriously. Man up. Or just admit the truth.

[anerlich]

Anerlich, how about Rick's place? Pretty open to spar there at whatever level someone wants to, right? If they want an all on match someone will accomodate them, or if they want to get a sweat going no big deal, right?


All visitors with sincere intentions are welcome, though we've accommodated a few with other agenda every once in a while too.

I agree that Terence's "demands" come close to the lamest bunch of crap I've read on here for quite a while.

[Edmund]

what's with the attitude? :rolleyes:
Terence Niehoff is a lawyer in St Louis and people on this forum have met him. You can Google him and get more details if that's what you want to do. What you don't know is that several of the people on this forum have been here for years, have met and even trained together. It's not as anonymous as you seem to think it is.


Bill,

Your post put bad ideas in my head.

I'm embarrassed to say this: I just googled myself!

I thought I had a common name but I'm a little stunned. I've starred in a HK TV series, Healing Hands 2 - No qigong though. Looks like it's about doctors and nurses. I've got a PhD in Civil Engineering. A patent on fluro lighting. A bubble tea shop in Canada (I'd love to visit that one). There's a Liquor license case in the Northern Territory that I lost.

I even found a couple of papers I actually did write a decade ago.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow you sound like my Sihing...incredible...I felt the same way at first. But I realize part of my problem is arrognace. I mean I just wanted to train with them solely because they did WC and spared. I don't care if I could find a karate group or Tae Kwon Do group that always spared I would like to join them too. But this is WC group who i could grow with my WC with. Outside of my own lineage. I could pick up things that are different. We learn from our experiences. Plus its been awhile since I had alot of hard sparring partners around my age. My intentions was not to go in to dominate or do some crazy stuff. I would simply follow the groups way. I wouldnt come trying to change stuff or teach my ways. Its simply to learn from the skill and experience of others fighters....


As you said their skill level may be below their mouth level. I don't care if they have the skill of eight of yearold. If they are grown men fighting with their art on regular basis doing some hard training thats what I want. Extra kung fu interaction. If I want to fight guys of higher skill level I know I can find some sifu's. Easily to spar. But I am not concern with dominating. Even if their group was of a lower level. I would reduce my level while there to learn their kung fu and pick whats useful for me.


Why hinder or damage their pride. No need. I mean from what he is saying sounds pretty good. Hard high impact work outs. Like of hard punishment. and all types of sparring. that means experience. If Niehoff is a great fighter an can beat my arse. I will say so. Its no big deal to me. Because I am student of fighting. I want to learn how to fight better and better. If he can not defeat me or if I possess more skill than him it will be because of Sifu and how he trained. But then again since we are in the same city an he is my WC brother I would respect him an give him honor where honor is due. I wouldn't come on here bragging about how I defeated him or anything. No need. By all means regardless if I win or loose I give face and cowtow regardless and repsect him as an older brother!

I mean after all I am only 32...I am still a youngin. Niehoff to me sounds like a very knowledge older man. So as my elder I must respect him. Thats me. If I could defeat him and he asked me to increase his skill I would do what ever his request was. But I wouldn't post it for all to see. But really when he advoided me I was like hold up is it me. He offered an open invitation to everybody else. I never came at him with disrespect or arrogance. Atleast I don't think. Maybe I should have to anger him and that way I could see his group. I want to spar for training and experience. Not to prove a point. I rather loose an gain a brother than to win and make enemies. This is how I feel Many people may think I am crazy...but I am never politically correct and dont really care about the majority anyway.

But it saddens me that he would advoid training,sparring,drilling or just sharing our WC with one another.

Its funny you mention doing Muay Thai. I wish now there was a good MT school in St.louis I would have taking it years ago if I knew today it would have been a prequiste. I mean I took Kick boxing along with Judo and Aikido before. Isn't that enough? I guess not? Ohwell.

Atleast I have my Sifu and Sihing an others to do Chi Sau with along with some friends to spar with.




Now, upon first read I thought I'd give Niehoff a pass here. But after thinking about it a little more, I don't think I'm inclined to.

Terence, you've put up a whole ration of cr@pola about "real fighting" here on this forum and others. You claim to have an underground group, and have stated several times that if anyone wanted to verify your skills, they could contact you privately and stop on by and see for themselves.

Now, we actually have someone that lives in the same city you do posting on this forum. He has contacted you privately and wanted to check out what you do like you've publicly postulated for many years.

And your response is "join a MT school for 2 years first, and then you can check us out"??????????? WTF_SPECIALSAUCEP4WN@GEINTH3@SS?????#@!????????

You have to as of right now be the biggest fricken' poser on the history of this forum or any other one. The biggest thing you have to be afraid of here is the same thing any poser TMA 'tard is - that you will be exposed. That someone will actually put in the effort to stop by and spar with you guys and find out that the skill level is miles below the mouth level (which of course is something we've all suspected but never had substantive proof of). Maybe we ought to contact the good folks over at Bullshido to do a little investigation here. That would be some entertainment. But you'd probably just backpedal and file restraining orders to keep people away from your scrubs. I mean how many of them have fought in any tournaments or have an amateur record? Among all the "real NHB fighters" in your group?

Virtually everyone on this forum trains at a real school that you can actually stop by and check out. It's no big secret. Stop by, train, see for yourself the skill level. And maybe we should get a poll started on this forum to see out of everyone's school's on here, what are the requirements to stop by and train? That would be an awesome poll. We could put your underground group of scrubs on here as "2 years Muy Thai prerequisite".

You know, what really makes sense here is that if your guys are so advanced in Muy Thai, as you apparantly are posturing to be, why don't you just post up the name of the Muy Thai school you train at, and people could stop by there and spar with you. Or maybe you could post up the BJJ school you guys cross train at and people could stop by and see if they know you and see the belt color and roll with you.

Like you always say, real evidence always wins out. So when you try to hide the ability to obtain real evidence, that's some serious dodgery. And it's relatively apparant what you're hiding. Lack of real skill.

Hey Knifefighter, if you're reading this, what extent of prerequisites would it take for me to stop by Caique's place where you train, congratulate him on his new red/black belt, and roll with your guys? Or the MMA place, how many years of Muy Thai would it take to train / spar with you guys? Train, get some sweat in, have a beer?

Victor / Phil, outside of someone coming in with bad intentions, you guys are open for people stopping by and training with you guys, right? Victor your Saturday fully padded sessions you'd welcome visitors to, right? Anerlich, how about Rick's place? Pretty open to spar there at whatever level someone wants to, right? If they want an all on match someone will accomodate them, or if they want to get a sweat going no big deal, right?

Now Terence how about people like me, who you couldn't use the excuse of making them go train for 2 years in Muy Thai becuase I already have? What excuse would you come up with there? 2 years BJJ? And if that doesn't work either, would I have to beat you in chess or tennis first? How lame can you get? That really shows the 'nads of a 5th grade school boy, afraid to get beat up on the schoolyard.

Geez that has to be about the most pathetic thing I've read on here in a number of years. I mean seriously. Man up. Or just admit the truth.


All visitors with sincere intentions are welcome, though we've accommodated a few with other agenda every once in a while too.

I agree that Terence's "demands" come close to the lamest bunch of crap I've read on here for quite a while.


I don't know maybe he has something against me. Wow...i was rejected before I even got to meet the guy. I wasn't attempting to challenge him to the death or anything. Just a some friendly sparring or really heavy sparring. So I can get some hard core experience. Because sparring is the closet you can get to fighting.


Doesn't make a lot of sense to me - and I've done MT!

I recall a lot of discussions on here about MT and I don't think Terence ever mentioned he studied it himself at all so I don't see why he would insist that you do 2 years of it before he'd let you in his group.

[CFT]

Very interesting well I have not met him. I lived in St.louis all my life!!!!Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis,_Missouri) reports that the city of St. Louis has a population of 355,663 as of July, 2007. I'm not surprised you haven't met him yet. Have you met the other 355, 661 (and counting) yet?

[Matrix]

Bill,

Your post put bad ideas in my head.

I'm embarrassed to say this: I just googled myself!

I thought I had a common name but I'm a little stunned. I've starred in a HK TV series, Healing Hands 2 - No qigong though. Looks like it's about doctors and nurses. I've got a PhD in Civil Engineering. A patent on fluro lighting. A bubble tea shop in Canada (I'd love to visit that one). There's a Liquor license case in the Northern Territory that I lost.

I even found a couple of papers I actually did write a decade ago.

Edmund,
Congratulations on all the accomplishments. ;)
When you google someone or something, you need to include enough information to make the search effective. Like a city name or some other detail. And you do need to be selective. Not everything that comes back is appropriate.

Cheers,
Bill

[JPinAZ]

Hah, Dave, spot on - great post :)



Now Terence how about people like me, who you couldn't use the excuse of making them go train for 2 years in Muy Thai becuase I already have? What excuse would you come up with there? 2 years BJJ? And if that doesn't work either, would I have to beat you in chess or tennis first?

You forgot dry-land swimming and basketball.

[Yoshiyahu]

Lets get off Terrence and get back to defense against a round house kick...


There is a new thread continuing Terrence Niehoff;

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53473

go ahead an click and read what was left recently...already some post up. Please feel free to share more there!

[Knifefighter]

Well... as much as I agree with Terrence's views on training, I do have to side with everyone else here. If you are going to keep saying "stop on by" and then put unreasonable restrictions on someone doing that, it seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I also think if you are claiming to somehow be doing WC more effectively than what others are doing, it would seem reasonable to put up some clips of that happening.

And speaking of clips and claims that are never followed through with, what happened to Victor supposedly showing his hook defense applications against sparring partners? Wasn't that supposed to happen like a month ago?

[Edmund]

Lets get off Terrence and get back to defense against a round house kick...


I think you already got the right answer at the start.
clam61 said raise your shin when you see the kick coming. It will block the kick.

For head level kicks, use a vertical forearm. If you don't know how high it's going, then you raise your shin and guard with your forearm at the same time.

If you've got even better perception, you can spot the kick earlier and do something fancier like dodge the kick but the most important defence is the above. It's the simplest movement usually and most likely to work.

Stupid stuff like trying to punch them only works when they aren't kicking at something vulnerable on you. If they kick at your head, you need your forearm in a strong position to block the kick or it can KO you.

[Yoshiyahu]

I totally agree...knifefighter...did you see the new thread...I would love for that thread to take off more too?



Well... as much as I agree with Terrence's views on training, I do have to side with everyone else here. If you are going to keep saying "stop on by" and then put unreasonable restrictions on someone doing that, it seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I also think if you are claiming to somehow be doing WC more effectively than what others are doing, it would seem reasonable to put up some clips of that happening.

And speaking of clips and claims that are never followed through with, what happened to Victor supposedly showing his hook defense applications against sparring partners? Wasn't that supposed to happen like a month ago?



Thank you Edmund. Are there any other direct Techs that can be use against a Round House?



I think you already got the right answer at the start.
clam61 said raise your shin when you see the kick coming. It will block the kick.

For head level kicks, use a vertical forearm. If you don't know how high it's going, then you raise your shin and guard with your forearm at the same time.

If you've got even better perception, you can spot the kick earlier and do something fancier like dodge the kick but the most important defence is the above. It's the simplest movement usually and most likely to work.

Stupid stuff like trying to punch them only works when they aren't kicking at something vulnerable on you. If they kick at your head, you need your forearm in a strong position to block the kick or it can KO you.

[Hendrik]

dont defense round house kick; but flow/slip in. its attack is the opening for one to slip in. it is about foot work...

Walk in to desolve it and start the close range attack......

Protect your head and shrink in the arm while flow with it. tap the kick is ok but never block it with arm or leg.... dont touch it if possible because it is NON of our business. our business is to walk in and broken the momentum...

play with the momentum not the kick.


just my 5 cents

[Edmund]

Thank you Edmund. Are there any other direct Techs that can be use against a Round House?

Plenty. But I think the 1st one I said would be so fundamental to get right that others don't rate a mention.

I'm sure that other techs can work in given situations but the 1st one is just super-dependable. It's the vital one and your best chance.

Moving in or out or to the side are all fine ideas but it's the guy's *shin*, swinging hard at parts of you that could drop you with one shot. First priority is to protect those parts.

Maybe after you defend, there's a good opportunity while they're recovering to move in and punch them or clinch with them or do some of those fancier responses.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well... as much as I agree with Terrence's views on training, I do have to side with everyone else here. If you are going to keep saying "stop on by" and then put unreasonable restrictions on someone doing that, it seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I also think if you are claiming to somehow be doing WC more effectively than what others are doing, it would seem reasonable to put up some clips of that happening.

And speaking of clips and claims that are never followed through with, what happened to Victor supposedly showing his hook defense applications against sparring partners? Wasn't that supposed to happen like a month ago?


***NO, this month. I said I'd post that vid sometime in March.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor / Phil, outside of someone coming in with bad intentions, you guys are open for people stopping by and training with you guys, right? Victor your Saturday fully padded sessions you'd welcome visitors to, right? Anerlich, how about Rick's place? Pretty open to spar there at whatever level someone wants to, right? If they want an all on match someone will accomodate them, or if they want to get a sweat going no big deal, right?"


***THE answer is YES.

(And the same for the Wednesday night catch wrestling class.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stupid stuff like trying to punch them only works when they aren't kicking at something vulnerable on you. If they kick at your head, you need your forearm in a strong position to block the kick or it can KO you.

Not sure but are you saying that counter a round kick by moving in and punching is stupid?

[CFT]

I think he is saying that you can only move in if you see the kick coming. If the kick is upon you then you have no choice but to block in the ways he outlined.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think he is saying that you can only move in if you see the kick coming. If the kick is upon you then you have no choice but to block in the ways he outlined.

AH, understood and agreed.

[Yoshiyahu]

I think he is saying that you can only move in if you see the kick coming. If the kick is upon you then you have no choice but to block in the ways he outlined.

Also if you know the opponent is about to kick. When they are gauging to chamber you can jam the kick with a stop kick!

[Edmund]

I think he is saying that you can only move in if you see the kick coming. If the kick is upon you then you have no choice but to block in the ways he outlined.

Right.
It's a relative comparison of how much time you've got to do the response.

Sure, punching someone can work. Plenty of stuff works in given situations but
these techniques are a reaction to someone else's action. This is defence. I wouldn't recommend something that could get you KOed if you're a split second too slow.

It takes more time and protects you a lot less.

[Yoshiyahu]

Right.
It's a relative comparison of how much time you've got to do the response.

Sure, punching someone can work. Plenty of stuff works in given situations but
these techniques are a reaction to someone else's action. This is defence. I wouldn't recommend something that could get you KOed if you're a split second too slow.

It takes more time and protects you a lot less.

Do you guys have ideas of how to use stop kicks and check kicks to advoid roundhouse kick from gaining full momentum and power.

[Edmund]

Do you guys have ideas of how to use stop kicks and check kicks to advoid roundhouse kick from gaining full momentum and power.

Same answer as before.
Many responses work. A stop kick does work.

But what will work super consistently is 10 times more important.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . Victor / Phil, outside of someone coming in with bad intentions, you guys are open for people stopping by and training with you guys, right? Victor your Saturday fully padded sessions you'd welcome visitors to, right? . . . .
The store in Chinatown I was teaching in moved to Queens. I now teach in the Pavillion in Chinatown's Columbus park every Sat. starting at 3:30pm. Anyone can stop by since it's a public park. There are a few other kung fu classes in the park as well. I love training with all types of people so I don't mind visitors.
And since I'm in NYC I'm also prepared for the occasional knucklehead. ;)

[anerlich]

Do you guys have ideas of how to use stop kicks and check kicks to advoid roundhouse kick from gaining full momentum and power.

Yeah. Hit him with your stop or check kick before his kick gains full momentum and power.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yeah. Hit him with your stop or check kick before his kick gains full momentum and power.

Excellent wounderful analogy...Do you do any drills to make this technique more accurate.

Great post.

[Yoshiyahu]

The store in Chinatown I was teaching in moved to Queens. I now teach in the Pavillion in Chinatown's Columbus park every Sat. starting at 3:30pm. Anyone can stop by since it's a public park. There are a few other kung fu classes in the park as well. I love training with all types of people so I don't mind visitors.
And since I'm in NYC I'm also prepared for the occasional knucklehead. ;)

I like your website...i checked it a year or so ago...

[t_niehoff]

its actually really easy to be arrogant when you are on an anonymous internet forum.


I amnot anonymous (I use my real name, real location, and I'm in the telephone book so anyone can find me). Nor am I arrogant. I KNOW what I can and can't do. I've never made any claims about my skills.



why the hell would you join an MT school and then join a WC group. if you learn MT for years before you learn WC you will develop a lot of bad habits that you then need to correct in WC.

if you think i am full of BS then we probably have a very different view of what WC is

You need to understand, I don't charge money to learn/train with us. The cost to train is sincerity and hard work.

I get all kinds of "interested people" contacting me and asking to "learn wing chun" or train with me. They are all a waste of my time. They're not serious about training, come with all kinds of silly ideas of what WCK is about, silly ideas about what training martial arts is about, silly ideas of fighting, etc. And I don't have time to waste. So when these "interested people" bother me, I tell them to go train muay thai or MMA for two years and get back with me. That would show me that they are serious, they they know what training really is, what fighting is really like, and are in shape, etc. Someone like that I'd be interested in having join our group.

Now, if someone doesn't want to do that, that's fine and dandy. I could care less. But if they want something from me then there is a price for it.

[Wayfaring]

You need to understand, I don't charge money to learn/train with us. The cost to train is sincerity and hard work.

I get all kinds of "interested people" contacting me and asking to "learn wing chun" or train with me. They are all a waste of my time. They're not serious about training, come with all kinds of silly ideas of what WCK is about, silly ideas about what training martial arts is about, silly ideas of fighting, etc. And I don't have time to waste. So when these "interested people" bother me, I tell them to go train muay thai or MMA for two years and get back with me. That would show me that they are serious, they they know what training really is, what fighting is really like, and are in shape, etc. Someone like that I'd be interested in having join our group.

Now, if someone doesn't want to do that, that's fine and dandy. I could care less. But if they want something from me then there is a price for it.

While I can understand a barrier to wasting time, in all actuality a person who does go off and find a good MMA school or MT school and trains for 2 years is probably going to progress to training with their fight team and taking amateur fights. And as such they would likely at that point have no interest in training with you. The question there would be what do you have to offer in training over a decent MMA school?

With the amount of noise you have made on forums like this over the years, and the number of invitations to check you out you have issued, respectfully a better approach would be to offer a sparring session as a barrier to entry. If you and your training partners have a reasonable amount of full contact MT like skillsets then going a couple rounds with a more beginner type would provide benefit. They would mostly report their learning, you could set barriers to entry for training consistently as part of your group, and your point to training realistically would actually have some real evidence to it based on what you guys do.

Also, silly ideas about WCK, training martial arts, fighting, etc. are best made defunct by experience. And that can turn someone's training around. Look at Jason Delucia - a kungfu guy with video still on YouTube losing a Gracie challenge badly. That reformed his approach to training, and he later went on to a MMA career.

So, there are a couple of sound logical ideas for you that you may or may not want to listen to based upon the amount of flak I give you on this forum. Intentions are good from this end regardless. Take it for what it's worth.

[t_niehoff]

Well... as much as I agree with Terrence's views on training, I do have to side with everyone else here. If you are going to keep saying "stop on by" and then put unreasonable restrictions on someone doing that, it seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I also think if you are claiming to somehow be doing WC more effectively than what others are doing, it would seem reasonable to put up some clips of that happening.


I have no trouble with WCK guys who are visiting St. Louis stopping by and training with us. I look forward to that. But we have a private group and don't want any and every nutter around town who wants to see what we do out of "curiousity" visiting us and quite frankly bothering us (and wasting our time). I used to palm these guys off on different guys in our group (first Scott, then Marc) who had semi-private classes, but each in turn got tired of dealing with the "interested."

As far as video clips go, I don't see the point. No matter what I do or anyone does, clips won't change anyone's mind. They'll just be ignored, rationalized away, etc. Only personal experience can help (though not even that will always help, as in the case of true believers). Seeing someone else make something work doesn't alter anyone's view about whether what they do will work or not. For me, most (97%) of WCK people are like "biters", those people that believe that gouging/biting is going to help you defeat a ground fighter. Someone doing a video of non-biting stuff working on the ground won't convince the biters that biting isn't effective or most effective. They have to experience that for themselves.

[t_niehoff]

While I can understand a barrier to wasting time, in all actuality a person who does go off and find a good MMA school or MT school and trains for 2 years is probably going to progress to training with their fight team and taking amateur fights. And as such they would likely at that point have no interest in training with you. The question there would be what do you have to offer in training over a decent MMA school?


I suggest to most people who contact me that they not take up WCK since if they want to really train to develop fighitng skill, they would be better off training MT or MMA or something where there are proven, good fighters and trainers. If I were starting over I wouldn't do WCK but would do MMA.

You are correct that someone might do that training and see folly in practicing WCK.

I don't claim to offer anything. I don't offer anything. I am not looking for "students". I don't want "students". All I am is part of a group of guys that train WCK. And we're all very particular about who joins our group.



With the amount of noise you have made on forums like this over the years, and the number of invitations to check you out you have issued, respectfully a better approach would be to offer a sparring session as a barrier to entry. If you and your training partners have a reasonable amount of full contact MT like skillsets then going a couple rounds with a more beginner type would provide benefit. They would mostly report their learning, you could set barriers to entry for training consistently as part of your group, and your point to training realistically would actually have some real evidence to it based on what you guys do.


Thanks for telling me what I should do before I permit people to train with me.



Also, silly ideas about WCK, training martial arts, fighting, etc. are best made defunct by experience. And that can turn someone's training around. Look at Jason Delucia - a kungfu guy with video still on YouTube losing a Gracie challenge badly. That reformed his approach to training, and he later went on to a MMA career.


Hence why I told him to go train MT. Get some experience with some good people. How is this poor advice?



So, there are a couple of sound logical ideas for you that you may or may not want to listen to based upon the amount of flak I give you on this forum. Intentions are good from this end regardless. Take it for what it's worth.

You seem to be laboring under some impression that people are entitled to join our group. They're not.

[Edmund]

I get all kinds of "interested people" contacting me and asking to "learn wing chun" or train with me. They are all a waste of my time. They're not serious about training, come with all kinds of silly ideas of what WCK is about, silly ideas about what training martial arts is about, silly ideas of fighting, etc. And I don't have time to waste. So when these "interested people" bother me, I tell them to go train muay thai or MMA for two years and get back with me.

If that's your subtle way of getting rid of someone, I don't blame you in the case of Yoshiyahu. Regardless of his opinions on WC, there's something not quite genuine about that guy.

[clam61]

I amnot anonymous (I use my real name, real location, and I'm in the telephone book so anyone can find me). Nor am I arrogant. I KNOW what I can and can't do. I've never made any claims about my skills.

you are arrogant because you automatically assume to be of greater skill and experience than others on this forum. people you dont know. you use that arrogance as a justification of any position you hold in a discussion.

[Wayfaring]

I suggest to most people who contact me that they not take up WCK since if they want to really train to develop fighitng skill, they would be better off training MT or MMA or something where there are proven, good fighters and trainers. If I were starting over I wouldn't do WCK but would do MMA.

You are correct that someone might do that training and see folly in practicing WCK.

Then what is your purpose in continuing to train an underground WCK group? Why does your group continue to train together rather than disbanding and training at the best MMA school around with proven good fighters and trainers?



I don't claim to offer anything. I don't offer anything. I am not looking for "students". I don't want "students". All I am is part of a group of guys that train WCK. And we're all very particular about who joins our group.

You have a lot of claims on this particular WC forum. Many of them have merit in pushing for realistic training and testing of WCK in an environment with less restrictions such as MMA sparring.

Nobody is saying you are seeking students, or that training in a small selective group is wrong. The only thing I'm saying is that there is an inconsistency with on one hand being a strong advocate for testing your art, yet on the other hand refusing offerings to test your art in the form of people who ask you to spar. If they are lower skill levels and your underground group is medium to higher levels in sparring the most that would be wasted is about 3 minutes tops.



Thanks for telling me what I should do before I permit people to train with me.

I understand that history on this forum probably amplifies my suggestion. All I really was doing is respectfully offering up an alternative solution that could potentially clear up inconsistency and possibly change some minds about training methods. It's just a suggestion. Ultimately absolutely I realize that who anyone trains with or permits to train with them is a personal choice.



Hence why I told him to go train MT. Get some experience with some good people. How is this poor advice?

Not poor advice. Some may not know where to look for this. What are options locally for that? I think I remember you mentioning cross-training at Rodrigo Vaghi's. Do you and/or members of your group still cross-train there? That would be a good option. What are other local options? Could you possibly tag some of those on to the St. Louis sparring thread?



You seem to be laboring under some impression that people are entitled to join our group. They're not.
Not at all. I respect the privacy of your group. Frankly if I was in St. Louis on business I would be more inclined to go do a class or two at Vaghi's as opposed to trying to hook up with your group, despite a common WCK background. No offense.

Also, if many in your group are cross-training, another option rather than wasting all of your time would be so suggest cross-training at the same location your group people are.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . If I were starting over I wouldn't do WCK but would do MMA . . ..
Why continue training in something you think inferior to MMA?

[clam61]

Why continue training in something you think inferior to MMA?

that makes sense that he is into MT, because what is considered MMA these days is MT, boxing, and bjj

[t_niehoff]

Why continue training in something you think inferior to MMA?

I don't think WCK as afighting method is inferior to MMA (anymore than judo, for example, is inferior to MMA).

I think -- and the evidence supports this -- the learning/training approach of MMA is superior to WCK's and produces better results.

I also feel that while the core method of classical WCK is sound, it is typically hidden amid layers of bullsh1t piled onto it over the years by people who have little skill/understanding about how to successfully apply (fight with) WCK. So anyone taking up WCK has to overcome an inferior training method and at the same time sort through loads of sh1t to find the nuggets of gold.

And, I don't think TCMA, including WCK, is in most cases a psychologically healthy activity.

[hunt1]

Finally TN after all these years you make your point in a clear succinct manner.

It's a position that I and many others agree with and its done with out needless babble and repetition. There is hope yet. The blind shall see the lame walk and the economy will recover.

[Yoshiyahu]

What would be a superior training method?

Please explain your straw man?

Its not inferior to MMA?
I don't think WCK as afighting method is inferior to MMA (anymore than judo, for example, is inferior to MMA).

MMA training is Superior to WC?
I think -- and the evidence supports this -- the learning/training approach of MMA is superior to WCK's and produces better results.

Last response from Niehoff:
So anyone taking up WCK has to overcome an inferior training method and at the same time sort through loads of sh1t to find the nuggets of gold.




I don't think WCK as afighting method is inferior to MMA (anymore than judo, for example, is inferior to MMA).

I think -- and the evidence supports this -- the learning/training approach of MMA is superior to WCK's and produces better results.

I also feel that while the core method of classical WCK is sound, it is typically hidden amid layers of bullsh1t piled onto it over the years by people who have little skill/understanding about how to successfully apply (fight with) WCK. So anyone taking up WCK has to overcome an inferior training method and at the same time sort through loads of sh1t to find the nuggets of gold.

And, I don't think TCMA, including WCK, is in most cases a psychologically healthy activity.