Iron Shin and Iron Forearm Training

[clam61]

What are your methods to condition your shins and forearms?

[Chazmek]

Using a regular wooden rolling pin and running it up and down along the surface of the part you want to condition; after doing this for 30 minutes every 4 days for a few months (applying Jow after each session) my shins and forearms don't bruise hardly at all and I can hit things alot harder without much pain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What are your methods to condition your shins and forearms?

There are many ways, the "best" tend to mimic what you will be using your arms and shins for.
So striking mediums of increasing denser matter is the typical way.
Always use lots of Jow.
Arguably, Thai boxers and Kyokushin guys have the "hardest" shins and they just hit really heavy and hard punching bags, though some do take it a little further than that.
Rubber mallets are a good beginning, you never want to stike a medium harder than your bones.
Bamboo that is bundled and them wrapped to hold them together is good.
There are some long "iron body" bags you can get and fill them with sand to start and work your way to steel BB's as you whack yourself with them ( let gravity and momentum do the work).
You can imbed a post i n the ground, wrap it and strike it, gradually decreasing the amount of padding until you are hitting solid wood.
Just remember to use a very good Jow or you will pay for it.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

What are your methods to condition your shins and forearms?

Playing Soccer conditions my shins nicely. Grip exercises are useful for forearm conditioning too.

[Yoshiyahu]

You sound very knowledge very impressive...



There are many ways, the "best" tend to mimic what you will be using your arms and shins for.
So striking mediums of increasing denser matter is the typical way.
Always use lots of Jow.
Arguably, Thai boxers and Kyokushin guys have the "hardest" shins and they just hit really heavy and hard punching bags, though some do take it a little further than that.
Rubber mallets are a good beginning, you never want to stike a medium harder than your bones.
Bamboo that is bundled and them wrapped to hold them together is good.
There are some long "iron body" bags you can get and fill them with sand to start and work your way to steel BB's as you whack yourself with them ( let gravity and momentum do the work).
You can imbed a post i n the ground, wrap it and strike it, gradually decreasing the amount of padding until you are hitting solid wood.
Just remember to use a very good Jow or you will pay for it.

[clam61]

Arguably, Thai boxers and Kyokushin guys have the "hardest" shins

what a coincidence. kyokushin eh? :D

what styles did you study besides kyokushin again?

[Yoshiyahu]

clam what arts do you study?



what a coincidence. kyokushin eh? :D

what styles did you study besides kyokushin again?

[clam61]

sum nung wing chun

[sanjuro_ronin]

what a coincidence. kyokushin eh? :D

what styles did you study besides kyokushin again?

Of karate?
Just Kyokushin and Goju, which are "sister" arts and interrelated.

I have always liked hard fighting and traning and as such, you get attracted to certain systems that have that, kyokushin and MT in the sport world are examples.
Hung Kuen is a fine example in the TCMA world, as is SPM.
I have some experience in HK, very little in SPM though.

[clam61]

what about the others? seems like you have done a lot of different styles

[sanjuro_ronin]

what about the others? seems like you have done a lot of different styles

Not really, not for someone that has been in the MA for 30 years.
In terms fo Kung fu, besides HK there was Moy Yat WC.
JKD was part of the Kali training I did.
So, in terms of Kung fu:
Hung Kuen,
Moy Yat WC
Chen taiji
Non- CMA:
Boxing
MT
Judo
Kyokushin/Goju
TKD

Over 30 years, not that many at all.

[clam61]

hey where to get gravel for iron palm? if its the gravel you see at the hardware store for landscaping, i would think that it is too un-uniform and lots of poking edges would cause problems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

hey where to get gravel for iron palm? if its the gravel you see at the hardware store for landscaping, i would think that it is too un-uniform and lots of poking edges would cause problems.

Ever done IP before?
If are starting out and are not following a certain "tradition" and are open to "other" methods, I have a suggestion for you.

[clam61]

hi sanjuro

always welcome to suggestions

[sanjuro_ronin]

hi sanjuro

always welcome to suggestions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDqSr03dgp8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulXzfJq3Dd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1QWZmfBJME


and the man they all learned it from ( except the chinese guy with the mutant hand, LOL)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAveS-ODrLI


If you like what you see, contact our very own Dale Dugas.

[clam61]

hi

i have seen dale's website before. his way is the traditional way--the way i intended to learn it. basically smack a linen bag full of material. start with softer stuff and end with hard stuff. and accompany with proper dit da jiu

[sanjuro_ronin]

hi

i have seen dale's website before. his way is the traditional way--the way i intended to learn it. basically smack a linen bag full of material. start with softer stuff and end with hard stuff. and accompany with proper dit da jiu

yes and no, contact him, trust me on this...
Ever done any hand conditioning before?

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats the benefit in conditioning arms and shins?

Some people frown on limb conditioning. They say it can cause health problems what do you guys think?

[Chazmek]

Whats the benefit in conditioning arms and shins?

Some people frown on limb conditioning. They say it can cause health problems what do you guys think?

If done wrong, yes, it can cause nerve damage and bone problems.
Usually these result from conditioning too hard in the beginning and not building up gradually.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If done wrong, yes, it can cause nerve damage and bone problems.
Usually these result from conditioning too hard in the beginning and not building up gradually.

Yes, the gradual build up is crucial as is not hitting hard any any stage.
You are always, basically, just tapping, of course as you get more "forged" your just tapping may seem liek hard hitting to someone else, and to them it would be.

[clam61]

yes and no, contact him, trust me on this...
Ever done any hand conditioning before?


yes i have contacted him before and seen his site. his method involves strking a bag full of stuff, qigong and proper herbal medicine. what is not traditional/

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes i have contacted him before and seen his site. his method involves strking a bag full of stuff, qigong and proper herbal medicine. what is not traditional/

Not saying that it isn't traditional, just that you may be able to start off with steel shot from the beginning and not have to go with the different mediums.
Of course, both methods work very well.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why not start off with something less hard? Why start with steel shots?



Not saying that it isn't traditional, just that you may be able to start off with steel shot from the beginning and not have to go with the different mediums.
Of course, both methods work very well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why not start off with something less hard? Why start with steel shots?

Some people already have well conditioned hands, years of makiwara or bare knuckle bag hitting, for example.
There are many methods of IP training, just beware of the ones that stress hitting/dropping the hand hard and the use of "regular" Jow.

[Yoshiyahu]

please explain why beware of the ones that stress hitting or dropping the hand hard?



Some people already have well conditioned hands, years of makiwara or bare knuckle bag hitting, for example.
There are many methods of IP training, just beware of the ones that stress hitting/dropping the hand hard and the use of "regular" Jow.

[sanjuro_ronin]

please explain why beware of the ones that stress hitting or dropping the hand hard?

Because you will damage your hands.
Correct IP can bruise, yes, but dropping or hitting your hand hard on a hard medium over and over and over will do far more than that.

[Chazmek]

As a general tip:
if you're hands are sore (whether there are visible bruises or not) for 24 hours or more after "conditioning", you're doing something wrong.
Surface conditioning on any part of your body is usually uncomfortable to a degree, but it should never result in any feeling of weakness or lingering pain.

[clam61]

Not saying that it isn't traditional, just that you may be able to start off with steel shot from the beginning and not have to go with the different mediums.
Of course, both methods work very well.

o ok i see. but dale recommends to start off with mung beans. he recommends a slower process

[Yoshiyahu]

Why not start off with Sand? why mung beans. You can start off hitting sand lightly right?




o ok i see. but dale recommends to start off with mung beans. he recommends a slower process

[Hendrik]

Why not start off with Sand? why mung beans. You can start off hitting sand lightly right?



different material you strike will condition the limp to have different coloring. from different color of the limp one can know if the practice is healty or damaging.

Sand if not totally dry will cause issue with the join...etc at . bean is used to neutralized "fire" according to tradition Chinese medicine. JOw was not the only things used. There are hand wash, conditioning.....etc. Jow have the bone curing or the muscle curing type. Not a size fit all.


Kidney Qi if not full will not create strong bone. With all the sex stuff and process food in this morden days ... one must be really carefull......




What is the point to have all these conditioning when we live in a society which is well protected ?




This type of stuff is not for everyone.

1, the health condition of one and the food/ diet makes a big different . in the past 30 years with all the soft drink and process food make a different.

2, one could cause internal injury such as heart and kidney with long term of mal practice. This will show up after the age of 40's usually.


3, breathing is a big key while Jow is just external stuffs. If one's qi and blood is not strong, these type of practice become problem. if one's qi cant sink to Dan dien one cause trouble to the internal organs. hard press qi to Dan dien also cause problem.


Bottom line, one needs a sifu who knows what is going on fully. hitting some bags and massaging with Jow is not it. and cannot be it for the serious trainer.


Look at those MT practitioner, the decease young....


Why do I post here? simply to let you know, before able to balance one's body. Dont do it . to have a healty middle age and old age living is much better then doing these macho stuffs while young.


We today need to learn the consequence of things so that we dont screw ourself up. Believe me, not worthed because there is a life we need to live. and we can choose a peacefull and healthy one.

[anerlich]

I've found that kettlebells have been very beneficial in keeping my forearms strong and able to withstand impact.

They won't do a lot for your shins, though.

[Violent Designs]

Maybe try a Hung Kuen class, lol.

[Chazmek]

Maybe try a Hung Kuen class, lol.

Hell yeah, any Hung Jia Quan class worth its salt should get you conditioned up pretty darn well :)

[clam61]

what about Iron Fist?

[Violent Designs]

what about Iron Fist?

Make sure you have strong wrist first . . . "iron fist" not worth **** if you have weak wrist . . . by by LOL . . . broke wrist.

[clam61]

ok so what are some training methods for that besides wrist curls

[Yoshiyahu]

Ways to develop iron fist

First do Push Ups on your knuckles
1.Three to Six Months on Padding
2.Three to Six Months on Wood
3.Three to Six Months on Red Bricks
4.Three to Six Months on Rough Gray bricks

Punch your wall bag1.Six Months (Beans)
2.Six Months (Sand)
3.Six Months (Stones)
4.Six Months (Steel Shots)

Just some things my Sifu shared with me.

From studing on my own I have found additional things

1. Punching hanging Flower pots after you work up past steel shots and gray bricks.

2. Punching Trees with out padding

3.Punching hanging jars with Water

Along with some other things to develop Iron Fist

Internal

Punching the Air 1000 times a Day (Fast)
Punching really Slowly 100 times day
Standing with your fist out for ten to twenty minutes a day.

Just my two cents. Do you guys have any other things to contribute???





ok so what are some training methods for that besides wrist curls

[Chazmek]

Just my two cents. Do you guys have any other things to contribute???

Playing catch with a cloth or canvas bag full of lead shot will do wonders for forearm, wrist and hand strengthening.

Stand a good distance away from a partner and toss it back and forth. Try to throw it using a punch-like motion using your center of gravity to project outwards, not using centrifigual force or a swinging wind-up like pitching a baseball.
Try to catch it in the same manner. Striking at it with a punch-like motion top stop the momentum dead, not letting your hand and arm sink and swing after you catch it.

Or you could take a page from Uki's book and juggle 9 pound steel balls.
I'm sure that will you get you nice and strong in no time.

[clam61]

regarding iron palm etc...iron palm is created by dropping your relaxed hand onto a bag full of beans, stones, steel shot

i can see how this conditions the hand, but how does htis create a powerful strike?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ways to develop iron fist

First do Push Ups on your knuckles
1.Three to Six Months on Padding
2.Three to Six Months on Wood
3.Three to Six Months on Red Bricks
4.Three to Six Months on Rough Gray bricks

Punch your wall bag1.Six Months (Beans)
2.Six Months (Sand)
3.Six Months (Stones)
4.Six Months (Steel Shots)

Just some things my Sifu shared with me.

From studing on my own I have found additional things

1. Punching hanging Flower pots after you work up past steel shots and gray bricks.

2. Punching Trees with out padding

3.Punching hanging jars with Water

Along with some other things to develop Iron Fist

Internal

Punching the Air 1000 times a Day (Fast)
Punching really Slowly 100 times day
Standing with your fist out for ten to twenty minutes a day.

Just my two cents. Do you guys have any other things to contribute???

RE: Push-ups on Knuckles, the only the ing that they do is "help" with the alignment on your knuckles and wrist, different surfaces will just bake the skin rougher and create calluses.

The wall bag routine is fine and can be modified to be used on a wooden post/dummy rather than a wall ( perferable in some ways, more give).

Punching trees and pots and jars is, well, redundant.

[sanjuro_ronin]

regarding iron palm etc...iron palm is created by dropping your relaxed hand onto a bag full of beans, stones, steel shot

i can see how this conditions the hand, but how does htis create a powerful strike?

Well, the more dense the bone structure the less give it has.
Also it helps to develop the "dead weight" of a strike as well as the tensing from relaxed part of the strike ( you are suppose to tense when you strike the bag from the relaxed drop, even more so when you progress to steel shot).

[clam61]

Well, the more dense the bone structure the less give it has.
Also it helps to develop the "dead weight" of a strike as well as the tensing from relaxed part of the strike ( you are suppose to tense when you strike the bag from the relaxed drop, even more so when you progress to steel shot).

i would have figured that it helps develop a denser structure from the tensing...but in the vid that i got you just tense your hand and not your whole arm.

[Chazmek]

i would have figured that it helps develop a denser structure from the tensing...but in the vid that i got you just tense your hand and not your whole arm.

The coordination required to only tense your hand and not the rest of your forearm is also a good thing to train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i would have figured that it helps develop a denser structure from the tensing...but in the vid that i got you just tense your hand and not your whole arm.

yes, just your hand.
And the denser bone structure is from the repeated impact that cause mirco-fractures, I forget the scientific term for it.
Think the difference between the bones in your feet and shins if you were to jog every day bare footed as opposed to with running shoes.

[Dale Dugas]

if you are wanting to get into the real background of Iron Palm you have to look beyond what the conditioning will do to the hands. It is actually more about getting energy to move through specific ranges of movement and developing those in the beginning through large ranges and then focusing them over time with smaller movements with no lose of power.

Standing and performing various qi gongs that are included in most real iron palm programs help to develop the use of creating a connection with the ground.

This vector/ connection is the most important part of this training and can be deveoped without hitting the hands but it will take you much longer.


also I start certain people out with beans as a safety measure. You really have to try and injure yourself on a bean bag.

I also use soybeans personally as they are stronger than mung.

Many people who use their hands for work are started out on metal shot.

It all depends on your background and your strength.

comments?

[chusauli]

yes, just your hand.
And the denser bone structure is from the repeated impact that cause mirco-fractures, I forget the scientific term for it.
Think the difference between the bones in your feet and shins if you were to jog every day bare footed as opposed to with running shoes.

Your goal is not microfractures, but stress with a line of force through the bones. You are looking for osteoblastosis.

Iron palm training does do alignment training, too. Not just the hands, but with the horse.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your goal is not microfractures, but stress with a line of force through the bones. You are looking for osteoblastosis.

Iron palm training does do alignment training, too. Not just the hands, but with the horse.

Thanks Robert, I misremember the term.
:D

[Dale Dugas]

Thanks Chu Shifu.

I made mention of the ground connection as well.

[clam61]

hi mr dugas

lots of questions here. hope you can help me understand. i saw your website. very promising but some questions before i buy.


It is actually more about getting energy to move through specific ranges of movement and developing those in the beginning through large ranges and then focusing them over time with smaller movements with no lose of power.

and i assume this is done through dropping a relaxed hand onto the bag? how does this apply to a real world situation where my palm strike will be moving outwards towards an opponent and not coming down from my head?


Standing and performing various qi gongs that are included in most real iron palm programs help to develop the use of creating a connection with the ground.

could you further explain this ground connection. do you mean a physical connection?

[Dale Dugas]

first you have to learn to relax and connect the entire structure to the ground. this takes time depending on the person training it.

Once you have done this, you can then take your training to a more realistic method and hang a bag up and start using the same forces learned through a horizontal range of movement.

Start with the horizontal and advance to the vertial/diagonal etc...

The ground connection is a physical connection in the beginning and then turns into both an internal and external connection with time.

You will learn how to exert force through your structure in the correct manner. Learn this using the least amount of interference and move one from there to other postures as well as adding external interference from people.

Hope this helps

[clam61]

The ground connection is a physical connection in the beginning and then turns into both an internal and external connection with time.

thanks for the explanations. hope you have the time to dive deeper into this. i think it would be beneficial for others as well as i know there are skeptics out there.

im willing to listen and learn

could you expand on the external/internal connection to the ground and why this increases power?

im physically standing on the ground as it is. what more of the external aspect can be changed?

what is the internal connection?

why does any connection to the ground increase power?!

[Yoshiyahu]

Hmmm sounds like some pretty good drills.


Playing catch with a cloth or canvas bag full of lead shot will do wonders for forearm, wrist and hand strengthening.

Stand a good distance away from a partner and toss it back and forth. Try to throw it using a punch-like motion using your center of gravity to project outwards, not using centrifigual force or a swinging wind-up like pitching a baseball.

Try to catch it in the same manner. Striking at it with a punch-like motion top stop the momentum dead, not letting your hand and arm sink and swing after you catch it.

Or you could take a page from Uki's book and juggle 9 pound steel balls.
I'm sure that will you get you nice and strong in no time.


Calluses can be advoided by proper liniment and massage the hands.



RE: Push-ups on Knuckles, the only the ing that they do is "help" with the alignment on your knuckles and wrist, different surfaces will just bake the skin rougher and create calluses.

The wall bag routine is fine and can be modified to be used on a wooden post/dummy rather than a wall ( perferable in some ways, more give).

Punching trees and pots and jars is, well, redundant.


In my opinion when you drop down force on heavy iron palm bag with steel shots you are doing more than just conditioning the palm. When ever you strike something its partly chi that goes to part of the body to heal the energy. Dit Da Jow helps promote chi circulation to that part of the body. Along with Chi Kung Before and after. So many things are going when your dropping down force. For instance just dropping down force in air also makes your strikes heavier.

The Iron Palm via dropping down force makes your Gum Sau,low Gan sau and Jum Sau more devasting. When you drop down force you are gaining muscle memory for one. Your training your hand to become heavier in other words harder or more force at the end when it drops. The motion is done with out force so you are training Yin energy as well. Your holding your stance while dropping down force so you are learning how to cycle force and energy through your structure. An yes you making your stars harder.

Two analogies.

Imagine you punching a pillow and wooden beam. Which one can you hit harder consecutively with out problems. The Pillow why? Because the wooden beam hit too hard will hurt your hand. But if your hand is condition to where wooden beam doesn't hurt than you can hit as hard as you like consecutively. So if you train your palms to lets say break bricks. Then if you palm strike someone on the skull it won't injury your hand. Its like sticking your hand in warm water or hot water. You can not put your hand that far into hot water with out removing it due to the pain. But if your hand was conditioned enough one could place his entire hand in the hot water.


So the more condition your hand is the harder you can hit a target naturally.

The other explanation is concerning the Chi...I mention it but I won't go into detail on that. I will say this about the external aspect. Which hurts more some one hitting you hard as hell in the face with a pillow or baseball bat. If you say bat. Why not make your palms hard like iron instead of soft like flesh when you strike.

An as for a relax palm...this is natural you can not really tense your palm up when striking can you. Its not a clinch fist!!!!




regarding iron palm etc...iron palm is created by dropping your relaxed hand onto a bag full of beans, stones, steel shot

i can see how this conditions the hand, but how does htis create a powerful strike?

[bennyvt]

I was watching a movie and this old guy got upset and hit the stone table and smashed it. I wanted to do that. I asked my teacher who said he had learnt it from another style. The main thing I was told that it had to be on the ground not on the wall bag, as this wrecked your shoulders (which I replied "oh is that why my shoulders are ****ed" as I had already been doing that, my teacher smached me in the back of the head). He said to put it on a bench or ground and hit it. He said the main thing was like the bag, to stop the normal human thing of "**** it will hurt so I wont hit it hard" same as the bag. Though training we learn to hit as hard as we can no matter what we are hitting. Barry once said when asked if punching hurts your hands, "if you are worried about your hands you shouldn't be fighting. Run away cause at some point you are going to break your hands as fighting anything can happen."
Like the bag, repedative impact causes the bones to fracture and the body repairs it and makes the matrix inside the bone thicker so it is less likely to happen again. This also happens due to increased muscle mass as the body recognises that the bones need to be stronger and the muscle is stronger so more likely for the bone to snap.
I also saw a guy put his finger though a tree. Bill taught me to strike a bucket with my fingers (this was also becaus ehe felt that before I learnt the dummy I needed to keep my fingers togeather and make them stronger as I used to keep them pretty loose and they would buckle under pressure. The bucket should be filled with (in order of soft to hard) rice, pebbles, sand, rocks. I got to the point that I put my finger throught the side of the bucket cause my fingers were curved and I left it at that.

[Dale Dugas]

umm,

What are you talking about?

[Vajramusti]

DON'T do the bucket with rocks thingee.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea my sifu told me the same thing with the bucket of rice...the last hard thing to hit would be steelshots...


But yea there are other ways to increase the strength of your fingers.

1.Do riding the tiger 100 times daily
2.Push Ups on your fingers 100 times daily
3.Strike small hanging bag filled with beans with your fingers
(Progess to rice and later steel shots)

Wit the striking the first couple of months should not be all out hard force. Yes if you use medium force you are still causing your muscles and bones to repair but the pain is minor compare to out right breaking the fingers so you can not use them...Also plenty of Dit Da Jow before and after along with Chi Kung before and after!




I was watching a movie and this old guy got upset and hit the stone table and smashed it. I wanted to do that. I asked my teacher who said he had learnt it from another style. The main thing I was told that it had to be on the ground not on the wall bag, as this wrecked your shoulders (which I replied "oh is that why my shoulders are ****ed" as I had already been doing that, my teacher smached me in the back of the head). He said to put it on a bench or ground and hit it. He said the main thing was like the bag, to stop the normal human thing of "**** it will hurt so I wont hit it hard" same as the bag. Though training we learn to hit as hard as we can no matter what we are hitting. Barry once said when asked if punching hurts your hands, "if you are worried about your hands you shouldn't be fighting. Run away cause at some point you are going to break your hands as fighting anything can happen."
Like the bag, repedative impact causes the bones to fracture and the body repairs it and makes the matrix inside the bone thicker so it is less likely to happen again. This also happens due to increased muscle mass as the body recognises that the bones need to be stronger and the muscle is stronger so more likely for the bone to snap.

I also saw a guy put his finger though a tree. Bill taught me to strike a bucket with my fingers (this was also becaus ehe felt that before I learnt the dummy I needed to keep my fingers togeather and make them stronger as I used to keep them pretty loose and they would buckle under pressure. The bucket should be filled with (in order of soft to hard) rice, pebbles, sand, rocks. I got to the point that I put my finger throught the side of the bucket cause my fingers were curved and I left it at that.


DON'T do the bucket with rocks thingee.

joy chaudhuri

[bennyvt]

cant you read english or is it that I didnt add the chi crap.
As everyone has stated the impact causes the bones to get tiny tears and the oesteoblasts replace it with more fibres to make it stronger. The hitting teaches you to hit without worrying about your hand being hurt. No mystical crap needed.

[Dale Dugas]

Benny,

It was more the tales of sticking you hands through buckets that made me ask what you were talking about.

That sounds like very much a tall tale.

Add this to your first stating the bones fracture, and then you agree that the bones are being caused to grow via the forces acting upon them as tears.


Just curious as to how long you have been training your iron skills?

If you can stick your hands through the side of a bucket why train at all, you should be able to penetrate skin and organs with that level of skill.

video of that at all?

[Hendrik]

Benny,

It was more the tales of sticking you hands through buckets that made me ask what you were talking about.

That sounds like very much a tall tale.

Add this to your first stating the bones fracture, and then you agree that the bones are being caused to grow via the forces acting upon them as tears.


Just curious as to how long you have been training your iron skills?

If you can stick your hands through the side of a bucket why train at all, you should be able to penetrate skin and organs with that level of skill.

video of that at all?


Dale,


I love the song "let it be" after reading so much fantasy.

[bennyvt]

I did it by mistake. My hand was curved and it went through the side.I cut my hand open trying to get my hand back out. Yes I dont do it anymore. When I told my teacher and showed him my hand he smacked me in the back of the head. an old bucket is different to skin.