How to defeat a Wrestler

[Yoshiyahu]

How can you use your Wing Chun to defeat a ground figher with out going to ground or having taking any Ground fighting classes?

[Kansuke]

..........................run

[uki]

just effing bite them... take a few mouthfuls off of their bodies, they'll let up real quick. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh, oh....newbie to wing chun forum alert!!! :eek:

He's obviously unaware that there have been about 600 threads on this subject so far...:rolleyes: :cool:

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can you use your Wing Chun to feet a ground figher with out going to ground or having taking any Ground fighting classes?

Let me ask you this, what is it about a "wrestler" and what he does that warrants a thread about how to defeat him?

[m1k3]

Let me ask you this, what is it about a "wrestler" and what he does that warrants a thread about how to defeat him?

Come on man. You've got Stone Cold Steve Austin breathing fire and smashing beer cans on his head, full ones so he's really really ****ed, coming for you.

That answers your question. :D

[taojkd]

You've got Stone Cold Steve Austin breathing fire and smashing beer cans on his head, full ones so he's really really ****ed, coming for you.

Gun. Gun is only solution to that guy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gun. Gun is only solution to that guy.

That'll just **** him off !!

[anerlich]

AS Vic said, this dead horse has been flogged to life again and back to dead several hundred times on various fora including this one. Every possible position on the subject, from the eminently sensible to the utter lunatic, from WC fundamentalism to MMA fundamentalism via pragmatism and back has been stated over and over.

Many WC styles have some groundfighting in them. But their practitioners are unlikely to have a hope on the ground against someone who trains there every day unless they do the same.

If you''re concerned about fighting groundfighters (why?), learn groundfighting. Know your enemy, even if he exists only in your imagination.

You're likely to avoid fights with wrestlers if you stop going to wrestling meets and shouting out that all that hugging and those singlets make them look gay.

[sanjuro_ronin]

AS Vic said, this dead horse has been flogged to life again and back to dead several hundred times on various fora including this one. Every possible position on the subject, from the eminently sensible to the utter lunatic, from WC fundamentalism to MMA fundamentalism via pragmatism and back has been stated over and over.

Many WC styles have some groundfighting in them. But their practitioners are unlikely to have a hope on the ground against someone who trains there every day unless they do the same.

If you''re concerned about fighting groundfighters (why?), learn groundfighting. Know your enemy, even if he exists only in your imagination.

You're likely to avoid fights with wrestlers if you stop going to wrestling meets and shouting out that all that hugging and those singlets make them look gay.

The problem sometimes is that too many people think that if they take up BJJ or MMA to adress the ground issue that, somehow, they are not doing their "style" anymore.
Someone has told them that to do B you have to stop A :confused:

Fact is, you wanna use your WC VS a wrestler, learn to wrestle, learn what they are good at, what their wekanesses are and learn hwo to use your WC to counter their strengths and expolit their weaknesses.
This is what every other MA FIGHTER(S) has ever done, why stop now?

[clam61]

avoid getting taken down :)

its not always a guarantee. look at chuck liddell. although hes not inept on the ground he is primarily a striker. how often does he get taken down.

something that can help with being taken down is to not stay stationary. keep circling. this lateral movement makes it a little harder for him to shoot on your perfectly. harder to get a double leg on you. if he goes for the single then you have more opportunity to choke him, or hit him in soem other way.

also keep low, lower center of gravity. dont stand there flat footed with a straight back.

this is not a guaranteed defense, but things to work on.

also, if for what reason you cannot learn some form of groundfighting, learn to bridge and get people off you so you can scramble to your feet again

[sanjuro_ronin]

avoid getting taken down :)

its not always a guarantee. look at chuck liddell. although hes not inept on the ground he is primarily a striker. how often does he get taken down.

something that can help with being taken down is to not stay stationary. keep circling. this lateral movement makes it a little harder for him to shoot on your perfectly. harder to get a double leg on you. if he goes for the single then you have more opportunity to choke him, or hit him in soem other way.

also keep low, lower center of gravity. dont stand there flat footed with a straight back.

this is not a guaranteed defense, but things to work on.

also, if for what reason you cannot learn some form of groundfighting, learn to bridge and get people off you so you can scramble to your feet again

Chuck was an excellent wrestler and a Purple belt in BJJ, I think.

[m1k3]

I don't know about his BJJ skills but he was a division 1 wrestler at California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo.

Being a division 1 wrestler puts you pretty high up on the grappling food chain.

[Kansuke]

So the answer is for the WCer to become a Div. 1 wrestler.


Problem solved!

[Yoshiyahu]

As WC fundamentalism or WC Purist how does one defeat a wrestler.

In other words No matter if you advoid the take down or you are taking down to ground what are some purely Wing Chun tactics for getting off the ground or advoiding the take down.


As for being a Newbie Ultimate this is my first week on this Forum. So Newbie I am...

Anyway I heard biting as one technique. Anything else to accompany biting?


I mean what I am looking for is some possible solution to defeat a wrestler with out learning wrestling.

So how do you take a wrestler out with out taking up BJJ or learning how to wrestle?

A couple of examples of what I mean:

How to defeat a boxer with out taking up boxing(Don't play the boxers game). How to defeat a Tae Kwon Do Guy with out taking up Tae Kwon Do(Don't play their game, Jam thier distance, bridge the gap so they don't have room to kick).

Please surely Wing Chun can defeat both striking and grappling styles with out having to to learn the various styles? Or is it Wing Chun is unable to defeat wrestlers. If thats the case why learn Wing Chun. If all Wrestling and grappling styles can defeat WC why not just learn ground fighting so you can beat WC fighters. By default any fighter a WC guy can defeat you will be able to defeat because Grappling and Ground Fighting is superior to pure Wing Chun.

In other words Ground fighting is the ultimate art that can not be defeated unless you study ground fighting!

[sihing]

How to defeat a wrestler?

Well first, using your gan sau you would have to...... :eek: j/k


Looking for a written explaination to a alive event would do you no good. If you want to learn how to deal with a wrestler, without having to take up the study wrestling itself, the only logical advise I can give you is to investigate their method, spar with them, get taken down by them, counter them and then repeat repeat repeat until you are familiar with their methods and confident with your response.

I recently had a VT buddy have a experience with a wrestler, and he was able to successfully avoid his takedown attempts on few occasions. Of course, what one person does means little to another, but it does provide evidence that nothing is impossible, and that both methods can either win in the encounter or lose, it's up to each individual, not what someone tells you on a internet forum or in person.

Remember, VT doesn't fight, you do, and it is what you do with your training that counts.

James

[m1k3]

Anyway I heard biting as one technique. Anything else to accompany biting?



Biting is a very very bad idea to do to a grappler who has taken you down. Look at the scenario.

1. He has taken you down.
2. He has achieved a dominant position.

3. You bite him.

4. A very very p1ssed off wrestler now sits on you chest and beats you without mercy. You lose many teeth and you promise God that you will never bite anyone ever again.

[sihing]

Biting is a very very bad idea to do to a grappler who has taken you down. Look at the scenario.

1. He has taken you down.
2. He has achieved a dominant position.

3. You bite him.

4. A very very p1ssed off wrestler now sits on you chest and beats you without mercy. You lose many teeth and you promise God that you will never bite anyone ever again.

Well if your talking about competition, of course you would not "bite" someone, lol. But if you are a VT guy, competiting in a wrestling tournament, then what chance do you have anyways?

On the street (where he is more than likely going to beat you without mercy anyways, regardless if you bite him first or not), if someone has you mounted and you don't know what the hell is going on, I would bite if the opportunity arose, but not just bite as a fight finisher but to use it as a set up for something else. You have to do something right, it may not be the only choice, but the opportunity may be there. The problem with biting, is the fact that you don't know what you are biting into, the guy could be full of disease.

Paul Vunak has some video on this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMhVLPwH47k, and there is a FMA art the exclusively concentrates on biting. There are something like 14 different ways to bite, and the muscles in the jaw have to be trained. They also train with meat attached to your partners body so you can actually bite someone in various spots to make it more realistic. I believe Vu advises that without any grappling experience, biting will more than likely not be a choice, and that one still has to have some skills to make it work. And if someone is in a more superior ground position than you, they also have the opportunity to bite you as well, the thing is if you aren't training it it may not come out.

My loonies worth:cool:

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I mean what I am looking for is some possible solution to defeat a wrestler with out learning wrestling.

So how do you take a wrestler out with out taking up BJJ or learning how to wrestle?"


***A SO-SO WRESTLER...garn sao and elbow strike.

A good wrestler - baseball bat.

[clam61]

Chuck was an excellent wrestler and a Purple belt in BJJ, I think.

yeah he started out wrestling and then doing hawaiian kempo or something like that.

but what im saying is that when u watch his fights, he rarely gets taken to the ground.

he has good counters to takedown attempts. either a sprawl or he has good timing and hits them while coming in

[clam61]

no not all wrestling guys can beat a WC guy. if you are going up against a person who is not a skilled fighter then running into him (maybe takin a couple shots along the way but this guy is not skilled or accurate so it is not a big deal), taking him down and doing a ground and pound is probably the best way to get the most bang for your buck in terms of the amount of time you train for the results you get.

its like relying solely on the chung choi and agression in wing chun. against a guy in a bar who isnt trained in anything, even if he is tough, if you fly at him with a good chung choi you will overwhelm him.

however if you are fighting someone skilled ...he will knee you in the face as you go for a double leg or do a flopping wing to your chung choi

if you are fighting multiple opponents, then any pure grappling or wrestling art becomes as useless . as you are rolling on the ground trying to get a chokehold someone will kick you in the back of hte head or worse.

also, if someone takes you down and you get him in your bjj guard, its not the same as in the UFC. while your trying to get a chokehold or joint lock the guy on top can do all sorts of things to your groin or other areas not legal in the UFC.



As WC fundamentalism or WC Purist how does one defeat a wrestler.

In other words No matter if you advoid the take down or you are taking down to ground what are some purely Wing Chun tactics for getting off the ground or advoiding the take down.


As for being a Newbie Ultimate this is my first week on this Forum. So Newbie I am...

Anyway I heard biting as one technique. Anything else to accompany biting?


I mean what I am looking for is some possible solution to defeat a wrestler with out learning wrestling.

So how do you take a wrestler out with out taking up BJJ or learning how to wrestle?

A couple of examples of what I mean:


Please surely Wing Chun can defeat both striking and grappling styles with out having to to learn the various styles? Or is it Wing Chun is unable to defeat wrestlers. If thats the case why learn Wing Chun. If all Wrestling and grappling styles can defeat WC why not just learn ground fighting so you can beat WC fighters. By default any fighter a WC guy can defeat you will be able to defeat because Grappling and Ground Fighting is superior to pure Wing Chun.

In other words Ground fighting is the ultimate art that can not be defeated unless you study ground fighting!

[Yoshiyahu]

CAn good a WC guy defeat a good Wrestling guy with out wrestling or a baseball bat?



"I mean what I am looking for is some possible solution to defeat a wrestler with out learning wrestling.

So how do you take a wrestler out with out taking up BJJ or learning how to wrestle?"


***A SO-SO WRESTLER...garn sao and elbow strike.

A good wrestler - baseball bat.

[clam61]

A famous example is where Sum Nung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_Nung) fought a wrestler Kwok Wan-Ping (http://www.cantonwingchun.com/about.asp)

Kwok was a student of Shuai jiao (Chinese Wrestling), Chinese grappling, and Greco-Roman wrestling. In fact that was what he studied in college. Kwok's Sifu told him to challenge Sum Nung, who was gaining notoriety at the time for being a great fighter.

Kwok thought, as most would, that all he needed to do is take Sum Nung down. Once that happened Sum's Wing Chun would be useless and could be defeated easily.

Sum accepted the challenge and when they fought Sum Nung used some anti-grappling techniques and snapped Kwok's wrist. Kwok dropped to his knees and begged Sum Nung to be his student. Sum Nung accepted of course and Kwok Wan-Ping was one of his indoor students for many years.

This is not a fantastic tale of any kind, but of course I know some on this board will say "its fantasy" or something to that effect but the point is simple.


1. If you take a striker off his feet, he will be at a disadvantage

2. If a wrestler is on his feet he will be at a disadvantage

So you cant say a WC guy cannot defeat a wrestler or vice versa. There are always strenghts and weaknesses

[Chango]

100% best answer!

knock him out!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Fantasy or not, we don't know of anyone who was there to see it, now do we? (Sum Nung)

So how good was this wrestler-turned-wc fighter, do we know?

Did he just charge in?

We don't know anything for sure about this event, so let's not get carried away here. But what we do know is what we've seen over the last 16 years now in mma...hundreds of times.

So here's the short answer to your question - which has been discussed ad infinitem on this forum in the past:

Learn (and get good at) what is called a "sprawl" in wrestling. It's a great wrestler's defense against shoot takedowns to the legs.

So you try to keep the fight standing with this; or at the very least, if he goes for the shoot and you both go down - YOU wind up on top of him.

[Kansuke]

So here's the short answer to your question - which has been discussed ad infinitem on this forum in the past:

Learn (and get good at) what is called a "sprawl" in wrestling. It's a great wrestler's defense against shoot takedowns to the legs.



Yeah, but be aware it's not quite that easy.

[anerlich]

Yeah, but be aware it's not quite that easy.


The only easy fights are the imaginary ones discussed on internet forums.

Yeah, Yoshiyahu, you're a newbie. So pay your dues and read the old threads before demanding everyone answer the questions which are already answered (where they are in fact answerable) elsewhere.

Maurice Smith is probably a better poster boy for striking purists in MMA than Chuck Lidell.

Chuck is a great striker and seems to prefer that over wrestling ... but he's also a very good wrestler.

Even Maurice Smith invested some time learning counters to grappling from grapplers.

[Wayfaring]

I mean what I am looking for is some possible solution to defeat a wrestler with out learning wrestling.

So how do you take a wrestler out with out taking up BJJ or learning how to wrestle?


I want to learn how to defeat a gunfighter without ever having to fire a gun. After that I believe I will take up defeating chess masters without learning chess.

If I am to succeed I better avoid gun ranges and chess tournaments.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well lets say you study Karate....


Will you need to learn Tae Kwon Do to defeat a TKD man if you only study karate?

Or would your karate be sufficent?



I want to learn how to defeat a gunfighter without ever having to fire a gun. After that I believe I will take up defeating chess masters without learning chess.

If I am to succeed I better avoid gun ranges and chess tournaments.

[AdrianK]

Will you need to learn Tae Kwon Do to defeat a TKD man if you only study karate?

No because the core set of techniques one learns and applies, are very similar.

If you want to be good at fencing you learn fencing, not shooting.

If you want to be good at fighting in the clinch and grappling range, you need to go outside of wing chun and learn from the styles that include that curriculum.

You cannot be a WC Purist or Any Style-Purist, its counter-productive and honestly, completely ****ing stupid. If you care about the combat part - You learn everything that is effective in combat. Grappling is not part of WC's curriculum, thus you need to look elsewhere to fill that gap. It doesn't even have the most common anti-grappling defenses, thus you need to look elsewhere for that as well.

[uki]

so far biting has been the most viable option... now add some clawing to his eyes and face in attempts to rake it off, followed by attempts to rake any other exposed part of his body... stick your fingers into his armpits, grab his crotch, twist and pull... somewhere in all of that you are bound to get back on to your feet and kick the living poo out of him. :)

[Taryn P.]

so far biting has been the most viable option... now add some clawing to his eyes and face in attempts to rake it off, followed by attempts to rake any other exposed part of his body... stick your fingers into his armpits, grab his crotch, twist and pull... somewhere in all of that you are bound to get back on to your feet and kick the living poo out of him. :)

LOL.... now *there's* a delightfully TIGERY attitude!

[couch]

How can you use your Wing Chun to feet a ground figher with out going to ground or having taking any Ground fighting classes?

I will answer your question based on exactly what you asked.

You don't have to go to the ground. You also don't have to take any groundfighting classes. BUT!

You will have to find a few people with some grappling experience and square off in front of them. When this happens, you will quickly find out what works. IME, jamming with a Jum Sau on the neck, getting a piece of the eyes, mouth and ears WHILE either getting those hips back or dropping to a Kwai Sat (ie: lowering your base) seems to work for me. You can also think about dropping elbows on the back of the neck/head or on the opponent's back, but you can't rely on these techniques for a couple of reasons, IMO:

1. You can't pull them off 'realistically.' This doesn't mean they won't work. It just means that I like my training partners and I won't be dropping any elbows on their spine. Therefore, I know that going for vitals on the face works and the other things I mentioned, because you get an immediate (and safe) response.

2. You have to think like some of us WC people do: logically. If I hit someone in the face on their COM while they are trying to come around with a hook punch, their power won't be as strong. It still might connect, but their punch won't have the power it used to. While your base (read: hips/legs) are getting taken out from underneath you, everything you do with your hands will lose power (no ground power, worry starts to set in as you are getting dumped on your a$$, going into survival mode, etc).

Hope this helps. Find some nice people to hang out with and train with, talk to your Sifu, talk to your WC friends - if they can't help you, stretch your circle of influence out f@rther until you find what you're looking for. Warning: This forum is lame at best. I can count on one hand the people I trust here. LOL

Best.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No because the core set of techniques one learns and applies, are very similar.

If you want to be good at fencing you learn fencing, not shooting.

If you want to be good at fighting in the clinch and grappling range, you need to go outside of wing chun and learn from the styles that include that curriculum.

You cannot be a WC Purist or Any Style-Purist, its counter-productive and honestly, completely ****ing stupid. If you care about the combat part - You learn everything that is effective in combat. Grappling is not part of WC's curriculum, thus you need to look elsewhere to fill that gap. It doesn't even have the most common anti-grappling defenses, thus you need to look elsewhere for that as well.

Someone has crotch kicked the correct.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so far biting has been the most viable option... now add some clawing to his eyes and face in attempts to rake it off, followed by attempts to rake any other exposed part of his body... stick your fingers into his armpits, grab his crotch, twist and pull... somewhere in all of that you are bound to get back on to your feet and kick the living poo out of him. :)

Have you seen Paul Vunak's stuff?

[Tom Kagan]

Chango has the only correct answer to the question IMO. If your training (or lack of) fails you when you need it here it's not your lucky day.

[m1k3]

One thing to consider is that people who do combat sports are used to being hurt and continuing to fight.

While rolling in BJJ I have been poked in the eye several times, elbowed, knee'd to the crotch and had a finger dislocated. ( I will admit that I quit right then and there with the finger dislocation.)

A lot of times with the adrenalin rush you get from rolling you hardly even notice until the match is over. Thats why you do your submissions slowly and under control so that your partner has time to notice the hold and even then cranked elbows are common.

Wrestling does have its weaknesses. To often the head is too low and open for kicks and knees and if you know how to do a guillotine you have a good chance to catch a pure wrestler with one on a single or double.

But this requires that you train with wrestlers. Having someone in your class doing sloppy takedowns will give you a false sense of confidence. A good takedown is FAST.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post, m1k1...but so far, Adrian's post has been the best on this thread.

[t_niehoff]

If you want to be good at fighting in the clinch and grappling range, you need to go outside of wing chun and learn from the styles that include that curriculum.

You cannot be a WC Purist or Any Style-Purist, its counter-productive and honestly, completely ****ing stupid. If you care about the combat part - You learn everything that is effective in combat. Grappling is not part of WC's curriculum, thus you need to look elsewhere to fill that gap. It doesn't even have the most common anti-grappling defenses, thus you need to look elsewhere for that as well.

I disagree.

For me, WCK is mainly a stand-up grappling method with strikes, so it combines grappling and striking. As I practice it, the method of WCK is to control my opponent while striking him, and is sort of a dirty-clinch fighting method.

What is chi sao/luk sao but a representation of the clinch (sustained arm contact)?

If you control the opponent, you control his ability to take you down.

[uki]

LOL.... now *there's* a delightfully TIGERY attitude!*meow*

Have you seen Paul Vunak's stuff?nope... never heard of him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

*meow*
nope... never heard of him.

Youtube him Bro, especially his biting clips, you can see him tear through a slab of raw meat !!
JKD: rabid badger style !!

[clam61]

...If you want to be good at fighting in the clinch and grappling range, you need to go outside of wing chun and learn from the styles that include that curriculum.

i agree with adrian about WC having no ground grappling, but isnt standing close range a lot about what WC is about?

[sanjuro_ronin]

i agree with adrian about WC having no ground grappling, but isnt standing close range a lot about what WC is about?

Yes, and no.
IF the only clinch fighting there was, was the typical WC clinch fighting than it wouldn't matter.
But there is clinch fighting in other systems that is different than WC, so to expose yourself to them will allow you to learn how to defeat them.

[Vajramusti]

1. You don't fight wrestling in general- you deal with what is there.

2. No problem in trying out things against competent grapplers.

3. Wing chun is not a collection of techniques including sprawling.

4. Wing chun is about control- if you really are in control of your structure and motion and learn how to apply them against different people IMO you don't need to become a grappler or boxer.
Learn your game and play your game. Control and attack well.

Same old same old topics come up!

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

1. You don't fight wrestling in general- you deal with what is there.

Always fight YOUR fight, not theirs, totally agree.


2. No problem in trying out things against competent grapplers.

Know your enemy...


3. Wing chun is not a collection of techniques including sprawling.

4. Wing chun is about control- if you really are in control of your structure and motion and learn how to apply them against different people IMO you don't need to become a grappler or boxer.
Learn your game and play your game. Control and attack well.

Absofreakinglutely !

Just because you may train with system A, b or C, to learn their in's and outs and to learn what works best against them, doesn't make you one of them.


Same old same old topics come up!

better than pointless drama, no?

[Yoshiyahu]

Long Range kicks are not apart of WC. Bruce Lee added Long Range kicks to his art?

So should a WC man also cross train a style like Karate or Muay Thai to get good at fighting long range ?



No because the core set of techniques one learns and applies, are very similar.

If you want to be good at fencing you learn fencing, not shooting.

If you want to be good at fighting in the clinch and grappling range, you need to go outside of wing chun and learn from the styles that include that curriculum.

You cannot be a WC Purist or Any Style-Purist, its counter-productive and honestly, completely ****ing stupid. If you care about the combat part - You learn everything that is effective in combat. Grappling is not part of WC's curriculum, thus you need to look elsewhere to fill that gap. It doesn't even have the most common anti-grappling defenses, thus you need to look elsewhere for that as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Long Range kicks are not apart of WC. Bruce Lee added Long Range kicks to his art?

So should a WC man also cross train a style like Karate or Muay Thai to get good at fighting long range ?

IF there is something in those systems he feels he would like to have why not?

[clam61]

what is an example of a long range kick

[m1k3]

spinning back kick.

GSP really hurt Matt Hughes with one of them when he won the title from Matt.

[couch]

better than pointless drama, no?

True that.

[t_niehoff]

From bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82076

Hey all. It's been a while. Here's a recount to an encounter I had recently with a self-proclaimed Kung Fu Master, who claimed experience in Wing Chun and a pressure point based system of some sort. I figured you would enjoy this.

This happened as a result of a discussion in a russian-speaking martial arts forum, where he was claiming that his groin attacks will neutralize the mount position every time. in addition to that, he also made numerous other claims, including only targeting pressure points when fighting, all other targets being ineffective by comparison and such. Believe me when I tell you that this dude claimed he could do a _lot_ of things. Had this happened here, it would certainly have been a mega-thread :)

During one of these discussions I offered to demonstrate the fact that he will not be able to get to my groin when mounted. He lives on the east coast, in a place I travel to quite a bit. As such conversations go a lot of the time, we exchanged a couple of emails and I forgot about it for something like a year. Recently, in a heated discussion with another forum member, he challenged him to a fight and used me as an example of someone who has been ducking him all this time. Naturally, this caught my attention. Two weeks later I just happened to be on the east coast visiting my family and I set up a time to drop buy said Master's house for a demonstration. Here's how it went down:

I arrived at his house at 10 AM as promised. At about the same time a friend of the Kung Fu Master's (KFM for short) arrived with a video camera. I change, stretch a little, and it begins.

Our original dispute started with attacking the groin when mounted, so KFM lies down on his back, I take the mount, and we start. KFM tries to reach for my groin, naturally he can't, I move up into high mount, isolate the arm, and keylock him. One thing to note, however, is that it is unnerving to have someone try to grab your nads in a fight. Not effective, but unnerving nonetheless.

We reset, and KFM tries to defend by manipulating some pressure points on my face and neck. The pressure points don't produce anything beyond minor discomfort. He then tries to manipulate pressure points near my floating ribs, also known as tickling, which actually has some effect - I take his arm and kimura him (or, rather, if I remmeber correctly, kimura-into-armbar him). I take this time to show that the mount is an awesome position to eye-gouge since it lets you completely immobilize your opponents head and he has no way to escape.

After that, we get up and (with me not defending at all) KFM tries to press all the same pressure points again, one on my throat, one where the jaw-bone connects to the skull, and one somewhere on the side of my head. They are mildly uncomfortable.

Then we moved on to sparring from standing up.

As a lyrical aside, there's an old russian proverb that in every bet between two people there's an idiot and there's a *******. At this point, I am trying hard not to be too much of a *******.

So we start from standup. Neither of us are wearing gloves. Not having done any standup at all in the past few years, I hit him way too hard a couple of times and take my time to apologize. Originally, this was going to be a full-contact-gung-sao-to-the-death (tm) but I'm down somewhere at 30% power. When we reset I, not wanting to hurt the KFM, clinch, gently lower him to the ground, take mount, and begin applying shoulder pressure when he submits. This is the part I actually have on video.

Gung-sao over.

After that, KFM realizes that he has boxing gloves after all. I put them on, he doesn't (so as not to interfere with his special punching technique), and we do something like a minute of stand-up, with me hitting him in the head at will (due to the whackyass stance with the neck straight and chin floating around) when he submits again.

I go home.

Amazingly enough, KFM posts some of the video, shuts up, and goes away. That's the primary reason I am not using names - I did not honestly expect him to keep his promise.



http://memoryofadream.com/photography/hosted/kung_fu_challenge2.mpg


He has since posted a two-sentence "thank you" note and disappeared from the original forum. He made no excuses for anything and kept his word about releasing the video.

At this point, there's basically two ways for him to go - he can continue stewing in his "kung fu" crowd, slowly rationalizing away this experience or he can open his eyes and change his approach to training. I'm hoping for the latter, though I'm not sure it's actually going to happen - he was very far off in the left field when we met. He was actually pretty certain that he would swat me away like a fly with his superior street-oriented martial art.

[m1k3]

LOL, good post. :D

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow. You sound like a great fighter. I could learn alot from fighting you. I think you could help me find my weaknesses and give me something to improve on. I hope one day I can spar with you. Win or Loose it would be great experience. No to death match,. Maybe some mma gloves and go semi hard to hard contact. I think it would great since you have alot of experience in ground techniques. I can really work on my defense sometime.

If your ever in U.City let me know..

.
From bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82076

Hey all. It's been a while. Here's a recount to an encounter I had recently with a self-proclaimed Kung Fu Master, who claimed experience in Wing Chun and a pressure point based system of some sort. I figured you would enjoy this.

This happened as a result of a discussion in a russian-speaking martial arts forum, where he was claiming that his groin attacks will neutralize the mount position every time. in addition to that, he also made numerous other claims, including only targeting pressure points when fighting, all other targets being ineffective by comparison and such. Believe me when I tell you that this dude claimed he could do a _lot_ of things. Had this happened here, it would certainly have been a mega-thread :)

During one of these discussions I offered to demonstrate the fact that he will not be able to get to my groin when mounted. He lives on the east coast, in a place I travel to quite a bit. As such conversations go a lot of the time, we exchanged a couple of emails and I forgot about it for something like a year. Recently, in a heated discussion with another forum member, he challenged him to a fight and used me as an example of someone who has been ducking him all this time. Naturally, this caught my attention. Two weeks later I just happened to be on the east coast visiting my family and I set up a time to drop buy said Master's house for a demonstration. Here's how it went down:

I arrived at his house at 10 AM as promised. At about the same time a friend of the Kung Fu Master's (KFM for short) arrived with a video camera. I change, stretch a little, and it begins.

Our original dispute started with attacking the groin when mounted, so KFM lies down on his back, I take the mount, and we start. KFM tries to reach for my groin, naturally he can't, I move up into high mount, isolate the arm, and keylock him. One thing to note, however, is that it is unnerving to have someone try to grab your nads in a fight. Not effective, but unnerving nonetheless.

We reset, and KFM tries to defend by manipulating some pressure points on my face and neck. The pressure points don't produce anything beyond minor discomfort. He then tries to manipulate pressure points near my floating ribs, also known as tickling, which actually has some effect - I take his arm and kimura him (or, rather, if I remmeber correctly, kimura-into-armbar him). I take this time to show that the mount is an awesome position to eye-gouge since it lets you completely immobilize your opponents head and he has no way to escape.

After that, we get up and (with me not defending at all) KFM tries to press all the same pressure points again, one on my throat, one where the jaw-bone connects to the skull, and one somewhere on the side of my head. They are mildly uncomfortable.

Then we moved on to sparring from standing up.

As a lyrical aside, there's an old russian proverb that in every bet between two people there's an idiot and there's a *******. At this point, I am trying hard not to be too much of a *******.

So we start from standup. Neither of us are wearing gloves. Not having done any standup at all in the past few years, I hit him way too hard a couple of times and take my time to apologize. Originally, this was going to be a full-contact-gung-sao-to-the-death (tm) but I'm down somewhere at 30% power. When we reset I, not wanting to hurt the KFM, clinch, gently lower him to the ground, take mount, and begin applying shoulder pressure when he submits. This is the part I actually have on video.

Gung-sao over.

After that, KFM realizes that he has boxing gloves after all. I put them on, he doesn't (so as not to interfere with his special punching technique), and we do something like a minute of stand-up, with me hitting him in the head at will (due to the whackyass stance with the neck straight and chin floating around) when he submits again.

I go home.

Amazingly enough, KFM posts some of the video, shuts up, and goes away. That's the primary reason I am not using names - I did not honestly expect him to keep his promise.



http://memoryofadream.com/photography/hosted/kung_fu_challenge2.mpg


He has since posted a two-sentence "thank you" note and disappeared from the original forum. He made no excuses for anything and kept his word about releasing the video.

At this point, there's basically two ways for him to go - he can continue stewing in his "kung fu" crowd, slowly rationalizing away this experience or he can open his eyes and change his approach to training. I'm hoping for the latter, though I'm not sure it's actually going to happen - he was very far off in the left field when we met. He was actually pretty certain that he would swat me away like a fly with his superior street-oriented martial art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82076

Hey all. It's been a while. Here's a recount to an encounter I had recently with a self-proclaimed Kung Fu Master, who claimed experience in Wing Chun and a pressure point based system of some sort. I figured you would enjoy this.

This happened as a result of a discussion in a russian-speaking martial arts forum, where he was claiming that his groin attacks will neutralize the mount position every time. in addition to that, he also made numerous other claims, including only targeting pressure points when fighting, all other targets being ineffective by comparison and such. Believe me when I tell you that this dude claimed he could do a _lot_ of things. Had this happened here, it would certainly have been a mega-thread :)

During one of these discussions I offered to demonstrate the fact that he will not be able to get to my groin when mounted. He lives on the east coast, in a place I travel to quite a bit. As such conversations go a lot of the time, we exchanged a couple of emails and I forgot about it for something like a year. Recently, in a heated discussion with another forum member, he challenged him to a fight and used me as an example of someone who has been ducking him all this time. Naturally, this caught my attention. Two weeks later I just happened to be on the east coast visiting my family and I set up a time to drop buy said Master's house for a demonstration. Here's how it went down:

I arrived at his house at 10 AM as promised. At about the same time a friend of the Kung Fu Master's (KFM for short) arrived with a video camera. I change, stretch a little, and it begins.

Our original dispute started with attacking the groin when mounted, so KFM lies down on his back, I take the mount, and we start. KFM tries to reach for my groin, naturally he can't, I move up into high mount, isolate the arm, and keylock him. One thing to note, however, is that it is unnerving to have someone try to grab your nads in a fight. Not effective, but unnerving nonetheless.

We reset, and KFM tries to defend by manipulating some pressure points on my face and neck. The pressure points don't produce anything beyond minor discomfort. He then tries to manipulate pressure points near my floating ribs, also known as tickling, which actually has some effect - I take his arm and kimura him (or, rather, if I remmeber correctly, kimura-into-armbar him). I take this time to show that the mount is an awesome position to eye-gouge since it lets you completely immobilize your opponents head and he has no way to escape.

After that, we get up and (with me not defending at all) KFM tries to press all the same pressure points again, one on my throat, one where the jaw-bone connects to the skull, and one somewhere on the side of my head. They are mildly uncomfortable.

Then we moved on to sparring from standing up.

As a lyrical aside, there's an old russian proverb that in every bet between two people there's an idiot and there's a *******. At this point, I am trying hard not to be too much of a *******.

So we start from standup. Neither of us are wearing gloves. Not having done any standup at all in the past few years, I hit him way too hard a couple of times and take my time to apologize. Originally, this was going to be a full-contact-gung-sao-to-the-death (tm) but I'm down somewhere at 30% power. When we reset I, not wanting to hurt the KFM, clinch, gently lower him to the ground, take mount, and begin applying shoulder pressure when he submits. This is the part I actually have on video.

Gung-sao over.

After that, KFM realizes that he has boxing gloves after all. I put them on, he doesn't (so as not to interfere with his special punching technique), and we do something like a minute of stand-up, with me hitting him in the head at will (due to the whackyass stance with the neck straight and chin floating around) when he submits again.

I go home.

Amazingly enough, KFM posts some of the video, shuts up, and goes away. That's the primary reason I am not using names - I did not honestly expect him to keep his promise.



http://memoryofadream.com/photography/hosted/kung_fu_challenge2.mpg


He has since posted a two-sentence "thank you" note and disappeared from the original forum. He made no excuses for anything and kept his word about releasing the video.

At this point, there's basically two ways for him to go - he can continue stewing in his "kung fu" crowd, slowly rationalizing away this experience or he can open his eyes and change his approach to training. I'm hoping for the latter, though I'm not sure it's actually going to happen - he was very far off in the left field when we met. He was actually pretty certain that he would swat me away like a fly with his superior street-oriented martial art.

If I had a buck fro everyone one of these situations, I'd be in the Cayman's right now.

[t_niehoff]

Wow. You sound like a great fighter. I could learn alot from fighting you. I think you could help me find my weaknesses and give me something to improve on. I hope one day I can spar with you. Win or Loose it would be great experience. No to death match,. Maybe some mma gloves and go semi hard to hard contact. I think it would great since you have alot of experience in ground techniques. I can really work on my defense sometime.

If your ever in U.City let me know..

.

Dude, that wasn't me in the video.

And I'm not a great fighter. There are no great fighters in WCK. None.

If you want to see your weaknesses go to a good MMA school or to a good MT school. If you won't do THAT, you'll never know.

[anerlich]

Long Range kicks are not apart of WC.

Incorrect.

The sidekick to the body in the TWC dummy set is about as long range as you can get.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well let me requalify the statement. When I speak of long range I actually mean long range kicks to upper body. WC kicks are particularly Low level kicks and some or mid level. But not higher than the Waist. Do you agree?

An my statement would be to fight someone skilled at delievering knock outs with round house kicks to head or side kicks to chin wouldn't you also need to study a Long Range fighting style?

Or would you just need to tweak your WC?




Incorrect.

The sidekick to the body in the TWC dummy set is about as long range as you can get.

[Yoshiyahu]

I wasn't speaking about the video. I was speaking about how you defeated the Quasi Kung Fu Master. You sound pretty skilled.

I would love to learn by fighting you!



Dude, that wasn't me in the video.

And I'm not a great fighter. There are no great fighters in WCK. None.

If you want to see your weaknesses go to a good MMA school or to a good MT school. If you won't do THAT, you'll never know.

[anerlich]

Well let me requalify the statement.

Whatever.

Yes, most WC kicks in the forms are low or mid level.


An my statement would be to fight someone skilled at delievering knock outs with round house kicks to head or side kicks to chin wouldn't you also need to study a Long Range fighting style?

Or would you just need to tweak your WC?


You need to learn how these kicks work and at least train against them to be able to defend. Obvious except to the wilfully ignorant, IMO.

High kicks for most people take longer and expose you more than lower level kicks. However practicing high kicks can improve your mid level kickcing ability. For most people, kicks to the head work really well when your opponent is on the floor.

My WC instructor had 37 pro kickboxing matches and over 100 amateur. In those days in kickboxing the rules prevented you from kicking below the waist. To compete he needed to develop high kicks. He won a good proportion of his matches with kick KO's to the head.

Terence thinks there are no good fighters in WC, but he's wrong. Plus recognising that spoils his ability to preach about what he doesn't practise.

Both my instructor and I practice high kicks, boxing and wrestling. Wv'e also been doing BJJ and MMA with other instructors for about 10 years.

I started KF with a Goju karete Nidan and JJJ black belt who switched to Chinese styles and taught a very effective mix of CMA.. With that start, my attitude to stylistic purists who put down other arts is similar to the attitide I have to religious fundamentalists and holocaust deniers.

"I only study one art" - what are you, an underachiever?

[mjw]

I look at it like this for one on one if it goes to the ground the ground fighter will usually win. However you can knock a couple guys out with wck. Try ground fighting multiple people and see what happens when the guy in the mount's buddy comes to kick you in the head a couple times yadi dadi.

I personally do both WCK and now BJJ but I do WCK standing and enter with WCK concepts and principles sometimes when I break the structure or am able to turn my opponent then I may go into a take down but I mostly savethe ground fighting for the ground and I think people should know both.

Huen sao (circling hand however it's spelled) is a good way to keep a grappler from getting the grips they want to go for a take down and in the mean time you try to cause as much damage as possible with your WCK , true fighting is about survival so make every strike count.

[David Jamieson]

lol @ the very idea that discussion will bring solution to the originally posted question.

there's only one way to find out. You know it, I know it, they know it.

**** or get off the pot. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Very excellent post...i like some of what you had to say!



I look at it like this for one on one if it goes to the ground the ground fighter will usually win. However you can knock a couple guys out with wck. Try ground fighting multiple people and see what happens when the guy in the mount's buddy comes to kick you in the head a couple times yadi dadi.

I personally do both WCK and now BJJ but I do WCK standing and enter with WCK concepts and principles sometimes when I break the structure or am able to turn my opponent then I may go into a take down but I mostly savethe ground fighting for the ground and I think people should know both.

Huen sao (circling hand however it's spelled) is a good way to keep a grappler from getting the grips they want to go for a take down and in the mean time you try to cause as much damage as possible with your WCK , true fighting is about survival so make every strike count.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I look at it like this for one on one if it goes to the ground the ground fighter will usually win. However you can knock a couple guys out with wck. Try ground fighting multiple people and see what happens when the guy in the mount's buddy comes to kick you in the head a couple times yadi dadi.

I personally do both WCK and now BJJ but I do WCK standing and enter with WCK concepts and principles sometimes when I break the structure or am able to turn my opponent then I may go into a take down but I mostly savethe ground fighting for the ground and I think people should know both.

Huen sao (circling hand however it's spelled) is a good way to keep a grappler from getting the grips they want to go for a take down and in the mean time you try to cause as much damage as possible with your WCK , true fighting is about survival so make every strike count.

If one person can take you to the ground, what is to keep multiple attacked from doing the same?

[taojkd]

I personally do both WCK and now BJJ but I do WCK standing and enter with WCK concepts and principles sometimes when I break the structure or am able to turn my opponent then I may go into a take down but I mostly savethe ground fighting for the ground and I think people should know both.

I also do both WCK and BJJ, and i agree as well. I dont WANT to go to the ground in a fight or even a sparring match, but if it does go to the ground I like to know how to fight at that range and to submit a guy with strikes or submission as quickly as possible to end the encounter.

As for multiple opponents, that just sucks no matter what range you are in.

[m1k3]

As for multiple opponents, that just sucks no matter what range you are in.

I prefer the "far away" range. Same for people with weapons. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I prefer the "far away" range. Same for people with weapons. :)

I prefer Chi Blast range, and by Chi Blast I mean Small Thermonuclear hand held device.

[Yoshiyahu]

If one person can take you to the ground, what is to keep multiple attacked from doing the same?

This is very insightful Question. I have often thought about this.

In my Humble Uneducated Opinion I would say for this scenario two options should be drilled and tested by sparring

1.Advoiding numerous variations take downs.

2.Getting off the ground quickly if you are taking down.

I think these two elements should be practiced and sparred with. In my meager thoughts I see these two things as giving you a fighting chance on the ground oppose to trying to stay on ground an break your opponents limbs on ground,or submit one of them or choke one of them out. How ever if you fighting one on one with not another soul for miles around. Then ground fighting might be good. Because you could gain the dominant posistion an break your opponents neck or damage is spine. So one on one its great provided your opponent doesn't cry out for help when he realises he is in submissive posistion.

But working Take Down advoidance and Quick counters from being take down to get back to your feet would serve purposeful against multiple attackers who wish to take you down to give you indian stomp down.

What do you think?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is very insightful Question. I have often thought about this.

In my Humble Uneducated Opinion I would say for this scenario two options should be drilled and tested by sparring

1.Advoiding numerous variations take downs.

2.Getting off the ground quickly if you are taking down.

I think these two elements should be practiced and sparred with. In my meager thoughts I see these two things as giving you a fighting chance on the ground oppose to trying to stay on ground an break your opponents limbs on ground,or submit one of them or choke one of them out. How ever if you fighting one on one with not another soul for miles around. Then ground fighting might be good. Because you could gain the dominant posistion an break your opponents neck or damage is spine. So one on one its great provided your opponent doesn't cry out for help when he realises he is in submissive posistion.

But working Take Down advoidance and Quick counters from being take down to get back to your feet would serve purposeful against multiple attackers who wish to take you down to give you indian stomp down.

What do you think?

I think that, VS multiple attackers, take down avoidance is a MUST, not training them is just, well, suicidal.
Also training how to fight when on the ground and getting attacked by multiples is also a must.
Very few do this of course.

[Yoshiyahu]

I think one should try to work on getting off the ground quickly when taking down. Work on techniques that provide escape from being dominated and submitted. So you can get back to your feet!



I think that, VS multiple attackers, take down avoidance is a MUST, not training them is just, well, suicidal.
Also training how to fight when on the ground and getting attacked by multiples is also a must.
Very few do this of course.

[Kansuke]

I think one should try to work on getting off the ground quickly when taking down. Work on techniques that provide escape from being dominated and submitted. So you can get back to your feet!



In other words, wrestling.

[t_niehoff]

That man earns a cigar!

[Yoshiyahu]

Not really wrestling...but i guess you could call it that.


merely escaping.



In other words, wrestling.

[Kansuke]

Not really wrestling...but i guess you could call it that.


merely escaping.



No, really, that is wrestling.

[Kansuke]

That man earns a cigar!



Thanks, but I don't smoke 'em anymore. The wife would kill me.

[Yoshiyahu]

well i guess you could use it as barter....if the cigar is expensive enough!



Thanks, but I don't smoke 'em anymore. The wife would kill me.

[Kansuke]

well i guess you could use it as barter....if the cigar is expensive enough!



True that. A good cigar is a fine thing.

[t_niehoff]

I prefer Chi Blast range, and by Chi Blast I mean Small Thermonuclear hand held device.

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlF937SmcUE

[m1k3]

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlF937SmcUE

Its easy to figure out what kind of cigar they were smoking. I bet more than their shirts were red.

[WinterPalm]

One option for defeating a wrestler that someone like GSP in the UFC does is to just outwrestle him and get him on his back. That is probably the best strategy that is safest...you could also work your guard as many strict wrestlers can be easy to pull guard on without the training or knowledge of it.

[mjw]

If one person can take you to the ground, what is to keep multiple attacked from doing the same?

Nothing really I was saying how one wouldn't take down one of 2 or more attackers in my opinion.

[mjw]

One option for defeating a wrestler that someone like GSP in the UFC does is to just outwrestle him and get him on his back. That is probably the best strategy that is safest...you could also work your guard as many strict wrestlers can be easy to pull guard on without the training or knowledge of it.

This is true or you can from the guard move into the mount or sweep etc etc. To just sit in the guard isn't the best thing to do since you can still get your face smashed in.

As for being in the guard when I want to stand up I often take "guard passes" but turn them into guard escapes so to speak.
Like when one can grab the hand (so they can't sweep you as easily anyway) then standing up and breaking the guard I may just grab the pant legs and rather than pass the guard to a side control position I may just throw their legs to the side and kick them in the head as I back off. Yes they might just shoot for you legs but otherwise you are back in the world of stand up fighting for the time being anyway.

[m1k3]

Nothing really I was saying how one wouldn't take down one of 2 or more attackers in my opinion.

Remember there are many types of takedowns and not all of them require both people to go to the ground. Shuai jiao, judo, BJJ and wrestling all have a bunch of good throws that slams the other person to the ground while you stay on your feet.

Think about this, multiple people come after you. The first one grabs you, you do a nice hip throw (all of the above have this technique) and slam him into the concrete.

You give a quick kick to his head, step back and wait for the next one to get closer.

Or more realistically run like he11 while they all stand there looking at their friend going, "D4mn, that looks like it hurt".

Wrestling and grappling doesn't always mean that YOU go to the ground.

K?

[mjw]

^^^
Very true

[sanjuro_ronin]

Remember there are many types of takedowns and not all of them require both people to go to the ground. Shuai jiao, judo, BJJ and wrestling all have a bunch of good throws that slams the other person to the ground while you stay on your feet.

Think about this, multiple people come after you. The first one grabs you, you do a nice hip throw (all of the above have this technique) and slam him into the concrete.

You give a quick kick to his head, step back and wait for the next one to get closer.

Or more realistically run like he11 while they all stand there looking at their friend going, "D4mn, that looks like it hurt".

Wrestling and grappling doesn't always mean that YOU go to the ground.

K?

True story, when I was bouncing there was an altercation outside, since I was doing the door that night I told them to knock it off or take it down the street, one of the 3 guys that were picking on one guy tried to pushed me and I grabbed his arm and sweeped him with an Osoto Gari, his arm failed out and clocked one of his buddies in the face, and the other guy just stood there looking at me with his two friends on the floor.
LMAO!!

[Yoshiyahu]

I would have loved to see that....




True story, when I was bouncing there was an altercation outside, since I was doing the door that night I told them to knock it off or take it down the street, one of the 3 guys that were picking on one guy tried to pushed me and I grabbed his arm and sweeped him with an Osoto Gari, his arm failed out and clocked one of his buddies in the face, and the other guy just stood there looking at me with his two friends on the floor.
LMAO!!

[bennyvt]

A pure wrestler would only take you down and try to ground and pound. The only real submission is the neck crank or can opener.This can be practiced by getting someone to take you down and try to stop them from punching you. The one thing that isnt VT that is esential is the bridge. If you can bridge you can get out of nearly all the submissions.
But on a side note I have found some uses for the VT to substitute from the grappling and it seems to work really well.
Stop a high take down: instead of the underthook grab and raise them up I use a garn sao to control the front hand and attack the head with the other to control him (strike is more of a push as one punch wont work most times.
Instead of a sprawl (for a low take down): step back and use your hands to distance until they are low enough to reduce the gap and strike.
Sweep. As punch comes you lap sao it and bridge to the same side and sweep him, can also use the kicks to kick out the leg to get the same thing.
I have also found the ideas of using the elbow instead of fighting with the hands. funny I was trying to pry a guys hands off me when he had me belly down in a guilotine. Trying to fight his hands I couldnt get any space with my other hand. I stopped and went "wait up use my VT" and i shoot my hand through like a knife strike instead of pulling his wrists. It sheared it off really well.
But yeh I think you need the practice on the ground. its like a swimmer. he can do pratice with a cable bringing his arm around just like he swims but if he isnt face down it doesnt teach the same part of the brain. If the movement is changed by more then 7% it is filed in a seperate part so you need to get on the ground and have some one punch and submit you. Learning to bridge and sweep are really important.
But thats just what I have been trying

[Kansuke]

Instead of a sprawl (for a low take down): step back and use your hands to distance until they are low enough to reduce the gap and strike.

I don't know what arthritic octogenarian you are planning on wrestling, but that is not the most likely takedown defense in the world.

[Ultimatewingchun]

While I like the fact that your post demonstrates that you are at least trying to deal with these issues, Benny...

the fact is that this is pure nonsense:

"The one thing that isn't VT that is esential is the bridge. If you can bridge you can get out of nearly all the submissions."

***NOT that I'm endorsing the rest of your post, but this part really jumped out at me.

[bennyvt]

I train against a guy who is 25, has done shootfighting, wrestling, prowestling and other stuff. I was talking against just a takedown. Most wrestlers arent good enough with their hands to distract you so they can do a suprise shoot. If a guy can bridge the gap and take you down before you can step back then you are the slow one. Practice it.
The bridge saying was a quoet from carl gotch who was a catch-as-catch-can guy who taught the guy that started shootfighting. I agree the bridge is one of the most important because I found that the princibles of VT can work to get out of the hold but you are still in a bad postion waiting for the next submission, bridgeing and to lesser degree sweeps are important as most guy will not continue the submission if they are losing their position.
Well come on victor you seem to know so much tell me how you use your VT to beat a wrestler, have you tried against a good wrestler so you can say that it is nonsense or are you saying that I am lying and it hasnt worked for me.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Well come on victor you seem to know so much tell me how you use your VT to beat a wrestler, have you tried against a good wrestler so you can say that it is nonsense or are you saying that I am lying and it hasnt worked for me. "


***I GUESS you haven't read much of my posts through the years, Benny. Been doing wing chun for 34 years now - but began taking a mixed martial art approach around 2001. I now mix wing chun with some boxing and catch as catch can (submission) wrestling.

So I take a "shotgun" approach as to how to deal with a wrestler/grappler. I might punch, kick, knee, elbow, clinch, wrestle, whatever - depending upon the situation.

I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying that no matter how good one can bridge - this is not a way out of just about any submission, as you suggested. Bridging has it's limitations.

[Kansuke]

Most wrestlers arent good enough with their hands to distract you so they can do a suprise shoot. If a guy can bridge the gap and take you down before you can step back then you are the slow one. Practice it.


I gotta say, that sounds an awful lot like someone with absolutely NO IDEA what he is talking about. Perhaps a miscommunication.

[anerlich]

Instead of a sprawl (for a low take down): step back and use your hands to distance until they are low enough to reduce the gap and strike.

This approach can work, up to a point. If they can't clinch, it's hard to take you down. There are exceptions like the low ankle shoot which can go right underneath this. Sakuraba had very good ankle shoots.

A former pro Shooto fighter and BJJ BB advocated this, but with a gum or push away on the head, punching with the other hand. Importantly however, he qualified it by saying that you absolutely need a good sprawl to back it up, because you probably can't keep it up for long if the guy keeps pushing.

Bridging is a useful skill, but it's no magic bullet. Sometimes in BJJ you try to get the guy to bridge as it allows an easy transition to mount from side control, and also makes some guard passes much easier. Sometimes lifting your hips off the ground is one of the worst things you can do.

[bennyvt]

I didnt say dont learn a sprawl or use it if you have to but it leaves you open to knees and fakes (I practice sprawling and bridging in my fitness regine). I mean use the hands like a push to keep them away when they are attacking the waist or below and push then towards the ground, until they are falling and then you can do heaps. By stepping at an angle and I have found a garn sao on the closest arm and a palm/push to the head. I meant this as a example when some one is just trying to take you down. My friend also strikes so normally I need to sprawl but I would rather step back and get distance instead of getting tied up (if he grabs me he tend to flip me as I am only 55kgs). I have found I am not big enough to rely on punching to stop it unless I have controlled him first.
Are you talking about a pure wrestler or a MMA guy. Cause most pure wrestlers I have seen tend to go straight for a shoot. This was the example I thought you meant. And again, if you cant step back in the time someone bends down and dives for you waist/ leg then you must be arthritic.
Of course bridging has its limits, I didnt say it would get you out of anything. But if you are on the bottom (which would be the case against a wrestler), bridging is a highly used way of getting out of the position were the person is doing a submisson. Ie I guy in side control doing an americana, Bridging to get on top is better then just straightening your arm or fighting it. Guy pounding you in mount bridge etc. I just meant there are thousands of sweeps (which I gave an example of how I did the sweep using VT techniques, lap and palm etc) and ways of getting out of different submissions but getting better position is more important then doing or getting out of submissions.

[Kansuke]

most pure wrestlers I have seen tend to go straight for a shoot. This was the example I thought you meant. And again, if you cant step back in the time someone bends down and dives for you waist/ leg then you must be arthritic.



I think you have had a very, very limited experience with actual skilled wrestlers.

[Edmund]

Of course bridging has its limits, I didnt say it would get you out of anything. But if you are on the bottom (which would be the case against a wrestler), bridging is a highly used way of getting out of the position were the person is doing a submisson. Ie I guy in side control doing an americana, Bridging to get on top is better then just straightening your arm or fighting it.

I think you ought to listen to some of the advice from Andrew (anerlich). He's been doing BJJ for a while. If you bridge from under side control you are committing your legs to arching. They will take the opportunity to step over to take the mount. You won't have your legs ready to hook him back into half or full guard.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"A former pro Shooto fighter and BJJ BB advocated this, but with a gum or push away on the head, punching with the other hand. Importantly however, he qualified it by saying that you absolutely need a good sprawl to back it up, because you probably can't keep it up for long if the guy keeps pushing." (Anerlich)


***GOOD insight, right there.

[m1k3]

As someone who used to wrestle, admittedly a looooong time ago, there are a whole multitude to set ups to be used before shooting for a take down. There are also a lot of throws and take downs that come off of clinching.

There is a LOT more to wrestling than lowering your head and charging like a mad bull. :eek:

Find some local college wrestlers and ask if they'd be willing to work with you in exchange for some free _ing _un training.

Also as someone who has been doing BJJ for 2 years now I tend not to believe advice given by someone who says "when the grappler does A you do B". The situation is far too dynamic for simple advice like that to work on a regular basis.

[Wayfaring]

This approach can work, up to a point. If they can't clinch, it's hard to take you down. There are exceptions like the low ankle shoot which can go right underneath this. Sakuraba had very good ankle shoots.

Very true. Ankle shoots are very hard to sprawl on if they are done well.



A former pro Shooto fighter and BJJ BB advocated this, but with a gum or push away on the head, punching with the other hand. Importantly however, he qualified it by saying that you absolutely need a good sprawl to back it up, because you probably can't keep it up for long if the guy keeps pushing.

If you can get a good solid structured bridge hand on the head or neck this can work, especially working to angle off and whi!zzer the shoot. This works with getting an angle and back hand on the neck cross body. Lead hand still allows them to turn the corner and get the single leg. The better shoots though have a penetration step that involve an upper body more upright as opposed to the head extended forward. The shoot defense that works for me there is having a good low gate bridge hand that intercepts the hands reaching for your lead leg, then using that to sprawl off of.



Bridging is a useful skill, but it's no magic bullet. Sometimes in BJJ you try to get the guy to bridge as it allows an easy transition to mount from side control, and also makes some guard passes much easier. Sometimes lifting your hips off the ground is one of the worst things you can do.
The standard replace guard side mount escape that works uses bridging, but by first moving the feet away so bridging creates distance. Bridging at the wrong time/place wears you out and allows your opponent an opening when you come down as you state. I would describe bridging as a fundamental movement of grappling as opposed to a magic bullet. As all other fundamental movements it needs to be applied in the right context.

[Wayfaring]

Also as someone who has been doing BJJ for 2 years now I tend not to believe advice given by someone who says "when the grappler does A you do B". The situation is far too dynamic for simple advice like that to work on a regular basis.

A little cross training is a good thing. The main problem is to avoid positions and situations that you have absolutely no experience with. If you are a fish out of water, swimming movements on land don't help. Gain some basic experience and fit it in.

[m1k3]

A little cross training is a good thing. The main problem is to avoid positions and situations that you have absolutely no experience with. If you are a fish out of water, swimming movements on land don't help. Gain some basic experience and fit it in.

It is also important to practice with people who actually do the skill. For example, using sprawl techniques on a shoot against someone who doesn't know how to do a good takedown isn't that hard. Doing a sprawl against a good wrestler can be very hard.

[Wayfaring]

I didnt say dont learn a sprawl or use it if you have to but it leaves you open to knees and fakes (I practice sprawling and bridging in my fitness regine).

I disagree. If you practice being able to establish a good low gate bridge hand off your lead leg then the entry into your space establishes the bridge contact and can dictate where your feet go with a good sprawl. They can fake and knee all day but if you're contained in your own space that's not an issue.

[Wayfaring]

It is also important to practice with people who actually do the skill. For example, using sprawl techniques on a shoot against someone who doesn't know how to do a good takedown isn't that hard. Doing a sprawl against a good wrestler can be very hard.

Agreed. Also, just practicing defending shoots alone isn't realistic. A good shoot involves indirection and changing levels, so practicing against them should involve an alive hands / feet striking environment mixed with shoots.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Anerlich, Wayfaring, etc...

Check this out, since perhaps it's somewhat appropriate to this thread. Catch as catch can wrestling in Quebec, Canada:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh2vVndc1Ok

[SimonM]

As someone who used to wrestle, admittedly a looooong time ago, there are a whole multitude to set ups to be used before shooting for a take down. There are also a lot of throws and take downs that come off of clinching.

One of my favorite tricks is to make people think they are about to take my back while keeping an arm where I can control it. Then, while they are transitioning, they go up and over and end up on their backs in front of me.

[Yoshiyahu]

What has worked for you in the past to defeat a Wrestler or ground fighter while using pure WC with out the usage of any ground techniques?

[m1k3]

One of my favorite tricks is to make people think they are about to take my back while keeping an arm where I can control it. Then, while they are transitioning, they go up and over and end up on their backs in front of me.

I use that one also, the look on their faces is great. However the last time I tried it the guy who took my back weighed over 350 lbs. I trapped the arm and couldn't budge him and there was no way I was letting go and he wasn't going to give up the back so we spent almost the whole 2 minutes with him trapped on my back.

That was a long 2 minutes.

[m1k3]

What has worked for you in the past to defeat a Wrestler or ground fighter while using pure WC with out the usage of any ground techniques?

If you have no grappling skills and he has no striking skills.

If you are a better striker than he is a wrestler you will probably win, if he is a better wrestler than you are a striker then you will probably lose.

Thats pretty much it. Now if you have some grappling to supplement your WC skills you will be in much better shape. If he has some striking to supplement his wrestling then you are in bigger trouble.

The arms race continues to spiral upwards and out of control. :D

[SimonM]

Remember that even when cross-training into striking a lot of wrestlers are most comfortable at extremely close range. Fighting a mixture of grappling and striking with a wrestler means you may be able to expect elbows knees and headbutts to be issues...

Those are what you can sometimes get away with on the mat. ;)

It's my understanding that Wing Chun prefers to fight close and capitalize on close-range discomfort so that may be an issue when fighting a wrestler.

[Wayfaring]

Hey Anerlich, Wayfaring, etc...

Check this out, since perhaps it's somewhat appropriate to this thread. Catch as catch can wrestling in Quebec, Canada:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh2vVndc1Ok

Good clip. Those guys are decent overall grapplers. Very active going after legs and toeholds. They would probably catch a lot of BJJ grapplers who haven't trained that kind of defense.

[anerlich]

What has worked for you in the past to defeat a Wrestler or ground fighter while using pure WC with out the usage of any ground techniques?

Nothing.

I generally try to make friends with other MA's and learn from them rather than having silly challenge matches.

And I don't beleive in "pure" WC. It stopped being "pure" after the pole was added to it. And even according ot legend it was always a distillation of toher styles.

[bennyvt]

ok let me just say i have never said that these things always work. There are things i have tried and have worked. Why look on a thread that is how to stop a grappler if you dont want some examples. All moves have a counter and if done at the wrong time are bad hence why most describe it like a chess match. I gave broad examples as there can be many changes. As far as not knowing much, some would agree with you. I did tkd at eight, judo karate and boxing while a bit older. I have done vt for over ten years and have been learning shoot fighting for a year. So i an no expert. But watching all the ufc's to date. King of cage prida etc i have seen many wrestlers and most cant strike for **** unless they have trained it. If they have them i wouldn't class them as just a wrestler. Shoot fighting is really catch as catch can and kickboxing. My mate alre did grecco so he does alot of clinching so i dont do it on him as he clinches them tries to take me down. And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me. Kimo showed this against gracie who only kept him on the ground by pulling his hair. I didnt mention the sprawl as every one who has watched a ufc would know the sprawl..

[SimonM]

ok let me just say i have never said that these things always work. There are things i have tried and have worked. Why look on a thread that is how to stop a grappler if you dont want some examples. All moves have a counter and if done at the wrong time are bad hence why most describe it like a chess match. I gave broad examples as there can be many changes. As far as not knowing much, some would agree with you. I did tkd at eight, judo karate and boxing while a bit older. I have done vt for over ten years and have been learning shoot fighting for a year. So i an no expert. But watching all the ufc's to date. King of cage prida etc i have seen many wrestlers and most cant strike for **** unless they have trained it. If they have them i wouldn't class them as just a wrestler. Shoot fighting is really catch as catch can and kickboxing. My mate alre did grecco so he does alot of clinching so i dont do it on him as he clinches them tries to take me down. And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me. Kimo showed this against gracie who only kept him on the ground by pulling his hair. I didnt mention the sprawl as every one who has watched a ufc would know the sprawl..

Honestly, no disrespect intended, but could you please rephrase this in a manner that contains punctuation that isn't quite so haphazard?

I am honestly having a difficult time following what you wrote there.

[Edmund]

And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me.

Because being pinned ends the match in wrestling bridging on your head prevents losing. For ground fighting, I don't think it's a good idea to bridge *on your head*.

Maybe 22 inch neck guys can give it a shot. Everyone else is going to get a wrecked neck over time.

[mjw]

Agreed, I still bridge however I keep off my head and do it with the shoulders sometimes to get a little extra explosivness at times. I wouldn't bridge on my head because it's a way to really hurt your neck though I did do it in highschool wrestling that way I wouldn't do it today.

[Kansuke]

Agreed, I still bridge however I keep off my head and do it with the shoulders sometimes to get a little extra explosivness at times. I wouldn't bridge on my head because it's a way to really hurt your neck though I did do it in highschool wrestling that way I wouldn't do it today.



Has your neck become weak?

[Yoshiyahu]

I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by bennyvt
"And victor if you do catch them u would know farmer burns who taught the first gotch who in his course named the bridge as very important hence his 22 inch neck, he used to hang himself for money. Its not a magic bullet. There is none but i found that without changing my position it was a matter of time before he got me."


***Indeed, I am well aware of Martin "Farmer" Burns, and I even have a book filled with step-by-step photos of him demonstrating catch - including some photos of him working with Frank Gotch.

But this doesn't change anything concerning the limitations of bridging. It's a great tool - but don't make more out of it's uses than what is truly there.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?


***NOT today's mma-type groundfighters, no...

The guys who can throw punches and kicks as part of a setup before they come in for a takedown would give these wing chun fighters you mentioned fits, imo.

[Yoshiyahu]

So you believe Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung at their top level of skill and physical fitness would be defeated against today's MMA fighters if they were at were at their prime today?

So you believe WC with out a ground game even by the most skilled Figther is uselss against a skilled Ground fighter who uses strikes to take you down?




***NOT today's mma-type groundfighters, no...

The guys who can throw punches and kicks as part of a setup before they come in for a takedown would give these wing chun fighters you mentioned fits, imo.


Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?

Whats different with the ground fighters today than the ones in Wong Shun Leung younger years? Are the ground fighters today more skilled than groundfighters back in the 60's and 70's?

[Edmund]

So you believe Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung at their top level of skill and physical fitness would be defeated against today's MMA fighters if they were at were at their prime today?

So you believe WC with out a ground game even by the most skilled Figther is uselss against a skilled Ground fighter who uses strikes to take you down?

Whats different with the ground fighters today than the ones in Wong Shun Leung younger years? Are the ground fighters today more skilled than groundfighters back in the 60's and 70's?

Today's MMA fighters are trained in ground and standup.

If you don't know any ground skills you are absolutely screwed if you end up on the ground. So if the guy knows you completely suck on the ground he's going to do his best to exploit that. He's going to be trying to take you down.

Unless you do some training against partners good at takedowns, how are you going to be prepared for the guy's best strategy? That is CROSSTRAINING.

You want to hero worship two dead guys like they could never be beat?
Anyone can be. Just takes the right strategy and opportunity to use it.

[anerlich]

I have a question about Sifu's like Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung.

If there to fight a Ground Fighter,Wrestler,MMA guy or BJJ fighter. With the current level of experience they had in their hay days. Do you think those Sifu's would be able to defeat most Experience and Highly Skilled Ground Fighters Using pure WC with out cross training?

I reckon the ghosts of Helio, Carlos Snr. Carlson and Rolls Gracie, plus Farmer Burns and Karl Gotch would kick YKS, YM's and WSL's a$$es. If Bruce Lee and Andi Hug's Ghosts were still around, It'd be hard to say whose side they'd go on - I'd pick Bruce with the MMA guys and Andi siding with Mas Oyama's ghost for Kyokushin's sake. And Oyama would side with the WC guys.

Get my drift? If not, I'll spell it out:

THIS IS A F***ING STUPID QUESTION!

[anerlich]

OK, that was a bit harsh. Sorry.

The point is, I've never come across a dead guy that could fight for ****. Even against other dead guys.

There may have been better wrestlers and groundfighters in the past. There may have been KF guys that could wipe the floor with all these grandmasters that no one ever heard of as well.

This sort of thing is like "my Dad could lick your Dad."

Whatever answer you got, how will it affect your future training and life in general? Any answer other than "not at all" would be ridiculous.

[Yoshiyahu]

Today's MMA fighters are trained in ground and standup.

If you don't know any ground skills you are absolutely screwed if you end up on the ground. So if the guy knows you completely suck on the ground he's going to do his best to exploit that. He's going to be trying to take you down.

Unless you do some training against partners good at takedowns, how are you going to be prepared for the guy's best strategy? That is CROSSTRAINING.

You want to hero worship two dead guys like they could never be beat?
Anyone can be. Just takes the right strategy and opportunity to use it.

I personally believe it depends on skill. For instance someone who has been training Karate for 20 years an is on mastery level would not easily be defeated by six month MMA fighter who never studied any fighting art previous to MMA.

So with that same analogy. I would say who ever has the most skill wins. So if a WC guy posses alot more skill than a mma guy even if he is fortunate to get the WC guy on the ground it won't last long. Plus on the ground you don't have to play by the grapplers rules. Any Guy of any art who fights ground figthers on a regular basis with out any ground training will be more adapt to defeating ground figthters than someone who 10 years of ground fighting who has never fought any one out side of their style.

The reason why I asked about Wong and Yipman and Yuen Kay San is because they were smaller guys who defeated biger guys even wrestlers.


I still say a more skill striker can defeat a MMA guy. An a MMA guy with more skills can defeat any striker. It depends on what you invest in. If you invest more time into kicking than all your defenses and attacks will be based on kicking. An you will study all the ends and outs of kicking. So you can perfect your art. And not many people will be able to defeat you as long as you can kick. Now you can say alls you have to do is control their legs or trap them. But someone who practices kicks has perfected keeping their distance and being able to defend against being jammed or trapped so they can kick. In other words if you fight the end inside the skilled kicker will counter by either kicking close or gaining distance.



I reckon the ghosts of Helio, Carlos Snr. Carlson and Rolls Gracie, plus Farmer Burns and Karl Gotch would kick YKS, YM's and WSL's a$$es. If Bruce Lee and Andi Hug's Ghosts were still around, It'd be hard to say whose side they'd go on - I'd pick Bruce with the MMA guys and Andi siding with Mas Oyama's ghost for Kyokushin's sake. And Oyama would side with the WC guys.

Get my drift? If not, I'll spell it out:

THIS IS A F***ING STUPID QUESTION!

I take you disagree with my question??? heh?

Tom Wong is still alive and your average ground fighter won't be able to touch him. If they try a technique on him while he is standing he will more than likely reverse it or throw them.

[Kansuke]

I still say a more skill striker can defeat a MMA guy.





You realize striking is part of MMA, right?

[Yoshiyahu]

You realize striking is part of MMA, right?

Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage. Plus his strategy will be to remain in a dominant posistion. Which is standing. So he will use antigrappling techniques and quick escape techniques when he is taking down to get back to his feet. Plus on his back he can also strike. An if he does conditioning such as iron palm,Iron fist,Iron fingers. Then even his strikes on his back can be menacing.


If you take a kick boxer who spends most of his training time punching and kicking a heavy bag,punching a wall bag filled with steel shots and Hitting a makiwara board.

First year he strikes 80lb bag
Second year he strikes a 100lb bag
Third year he strikes 200lb bag
Foruth year he strikes a 300lb bag
and Fifth year he strikes a 400 lb bag
(An he can move the 400lb bag with each strike)

This guy;s punches from the ground are still going to be devasting. Imagine him opening up chain punchs or performing a Chin Na technique on a grappling arm trying to fight for the dominant posisition. Besides no matter how skilled you are in groundfighting you won't be able to defeat every untrained fighter.

For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt. Do you think your ten or eleven year old son will be able to submit Tommy "Tiny" Lister Jr., Shaquil Oneal or Ving Rhymes. I picked these two because the average Black Belt BJJ guy who are not heavy weights would have hard time fighting these guys with Wrestling techniques. They would fair better with Muay Thai or Boxing. If they have the correct conditioning and power to adminster damage upon contact. These guys to best of my ability have no ground skills. But I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys. Just my opinion. Not saying they couldn't be demolished.

An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!




Even his strikes

[Edmund]

I personally believe it depends on skill. For instance someone who has been training Karate for 20 years an is on mastery level would not easily be defeated by six month MMA fighter who never studied any fighting art previous to MMA.

So with that same analogy. I would say who ever has the most skill wins. So if a WC guy posses alot more skill than a mma guy even if he is fortunate to get the WC guy on the ground it won't last long.


You wrote in your question WC vs *skilled* ground fighter?

Now you want a hypothetical 20 year karate guy vs a 6 month MMA guy.

Frankly if you need bust your ass for 20 years to beat some guy who trained 6 months of MMA, I think you could have spent your time a bit better. How doing about 7 months of MMA yourself instead of 20 years of karate?

What if you run into a 1 year MMA guy? You're dead meat?

Or if you haven't hit the 20 year mark before you get in a fight vs the 6 month guy?




Tom Wong is still alive and your average ground fighter won't be able to touch him. If they try a technique on him while he is standing he will more than likely reverse it or throw them.

Now it's Tom Wong versus an *average* ground fighter and Tom Wong's been doing WC for more than 20 years!



Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?


They do plenty of it.




For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt.

Yeah. 2 years after he gets his commercial pilot license.
Hopefully he can hand in the PhD thesis before he starts training. I don't want him splitting his time on both.

They don't give them to kids.





But I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys. Just my opinion. Not saying they couldn't be demolished.

An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!

WTF?
Did anyone say a MMA guy beats a band of pirates or a godzilla or something?

Look if you want to do a couple of decades of pure WC to avoid losing to a 6 month MMA guy, that's up to you.

[Kansuke]

Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage. [/QUOTE]

So the guy who focuses on one thing will be at an advantage over the guy who focuses on that and other things? How does that make sense?



Plus his strategy will be to remain in a dominant posistion. Which is standing.

Who says that is a dominant position?



So he will use antigrappling techniques and quick escape techniques when he is taking down to get back to his feet.

The guy who has fewer, if any, grappling skills will be able to dictate what happens in the grappling range? That makes a lot of sense.



Plus on his back he can also strike. An if he does conditioning such as iron palm,Iron fist,Iron fingers. Then even his strikes on his back can be menacing.


Tommy "Tiny" Lister Jr., Shaquil Oneal or Ving Rhymes. I picked these two because the average Black Belt BJJ guy who are not heavy weights would have hard time fighting these guys with Wrestling techniques.

How the hell do you know that? If those guys know nothing about grappling they will be fish on the ground.


They would fair better with Muay Thai or Boxing.

You also don't know that. In fact, I'd bet all those guys have exchanged punches with folks in their time but probably don't have much in the way of any grappling experience.


I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys.



An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!




Unless you've got some weapons and some training with them, you are very likely out of luck in any case with multiple attackers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage. Plus his strategy will be to remain in a dominant posistion. Which is standing. So he will use antigrappling techniques and quick escape techniques when he is taking down to get back to his feet. Plus on his back he can also strike. An if he does conditioning such as iron palm,Iron fist,Iron fingers. Then even his strikes on his back can be menacing.

Many MMA come from specialized Striking backgrounds: MT, Kyokushin, Kickboxing.
Silva and GSP have SOME striking skills ;)


If you take a kick boxer who spends most of his training time punching and kicking a heavy bag,punching a wall bag filled with steel shots and Hitting a makiwara board.

First year he strikes 80lb bag
Second year he strikes a 100lb bag
Third year he strikes 200lb bag
Foruth year he strikes a 300lb bag
and Fifth year he strikes a 400 lb bag
(An he can move the 400lb bag with each strike)

Dude...seriously...what are you talking about?


This guy;s punches from the ground are still going to be devasting. Imagine him opening up chain punchs or performing a Chin Na technique on a grappling arm trying to fight for the dominant posisition. Besides no matter how skilled you are in groundfighting you won't be able to defeat every untrained fighter.

His punches will be as devastating as they can be IF he has trained them that way, standing punching ans ground punching are not and never have been the same thing.


For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt. Do you think your ten or eleven year old son will be able to submit Tommy "Tiny" Lister Jr., Shaquil Oneal or Ving Rhymes. I picked these two because the average Black Belt BJJ guy who are not heavy weights would have hard time fighting these guys with Wrestling techniques. They would fair better with Muay Thai or Boxing. If they have the correct conditioning and power to adminster damage upon contact. These guys to best of my ability have no ground skills. But I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys. Just my opinion. Not saying they couldn't be demolished.

Size matters LESS in grappling than it does in striking.
It still matters, a GREAT DEAL, anyone that has ever fought full contact with no weight limits knows this.


An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!
The chances of you going to the ground VS multilple attackers is HIGHER than VS just one.

[mjw]

Has your neck become weak?
No, I still bridge up in warm ups but just wouldn' do it in combat....

[Yoshiyahu]

If a guy studies authenic WC for ten years. An another guy only studies MMA for ten years. Depending on their skill level would dictate who would win. If the MMA guy studied a little BJJ and Boxing and Muay Thai. But never really specialize in any one style He might be at advantage too. However his advantage would be to switch from boxing to high kicks, to ground fighting. In other words if your fighting some who is skilled at boxing you can throw high powerful kicks. if your fighting a skilled fighter who is unconditioned phyiscally you may be able to defeat him with stamina and raw power. Slaming hard Round houses against a boxers body or hands may shut him down an make him stop trying to hit you. In my opinion if you are getting beat on the inside than it may be a good idea to try to wrestle the guy down an put him in a submission hold. If its a one on one street fight than take him down an apply a choke hold to put him unconscious. But pray he doesn't die are you up for murder one. Also you could do some arm breaks on the ground in a street fight or leg breaks. But you may have to appear in court for excessive force. So I wouldnt suggest putting a street fighter into a temporary submission hold an letting him go when he taps out. Chances are he may be get angry an when you try to get up. The fight starts all over again. An this time you might not be able to take him down a second time before he knockes your block off.

Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me. Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.

You take a MMA guy who has some striking ability who has been studing MMA for five years. He can still be defeated by a WC guy who has only studied for two years. Especially if the WC guy lives,works,breathes and eats WC all day every day. All his pay checks go to supplies for his WC training an his hobbies is making his WC better an sparring guys from different arts including ground fighters. An you got a BJJ or MMA guy who does some amateurish bouts and trains 3 to 4 times a week. He can still be defeated by strickly WC guy who knows nothing about the ground. Especially if the WC guy perfected not going to ground by working and sparring with skilled ground fighters. But never learning the ground game.



You wrote in your question WC vs *skilled* ground fighter?

Now you want a hypothetical 20 year karate guy vs a 6 month MMA guy.

Frankly if you need bust your ass for 20 years to beat some guy who trained 6 months of MMA, I think you could have spent your time a bit better. How doing about 7 months of MMA yourself instead of 20 years of karate?

What if you run into a 1 year MMA guy? You're dead meat?

Or if you haven't hit the 20 year mark before you get in a fight vs the 6 month guy?




Now it's Tom Wong versus an *average* ground fighter and Tom Wong's been doing WC for more than 20 years!




They do plenty of it.




Yeah. 2 years after he gets his commercial pilot license.
Hopefully he can hand in the PhD thesis before he starts training. I don't want him splitting his time on both.

They don't give them to kids.





WTF?
Did anyone say a MMA guy beats a band of pirates or a godzilla or something?

Look if you want to do a couple of decades of pure WC to avoid losing to a 6 month MMA guy, that's up to you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If a guy studies authenic WC for ten years. An another guy only studies MMA for ten years. Depending on their skill level would dictate who would win. If the MMA guy studied a little BJJ and Boxing and Muay Thai. But never really specialize in any one style He might be at advantage too. However his advantage would be to switch from boxing to high kicks, to ground fighting. In other words if your fighting some who is skilled at boxing you can throw high powerful kicks. if your fighting a skilled fighter who is unconditioned phyiscally you may be able to defeat him with stamina and raw power. Slaming hard Round houses against a boxers body or hands may shut him down an make him stop trying to hit you. In my opinion if you are getting beat on the inside than it may be a good idea to try to wrestle the guy down an put him in a submission hold. If its a one on one street fight than take him down an apply a choke hold to put him unconscious. But pray he doesn't die are you up for murder one. Also you could do some arm breaks on the ground in a street fight or leg breaks. But you may have to appear in court for excessive force. So I wouldnt suggest putting a street fighter into a temporary submission hold an letting him go when he taps out. Chances are he may be get angry an when you try to get up. The fight starts all over again. An this time you might not be able to take him down a second time before he knockes your block off.

Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me. Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.

You take a MMA guy who has some striking ability who has been studing MMA for five years. He can still be defeated by a WC guy who has only studied for two years. Especially if the WC guy lives,works,breathes and eats WC all day every day. All his pay checks go to supplies for his WC training an his hobbies is making his WC better an sparring guys from different arts including ground fighters. An you got a BJJ or MMA guy who does some amateurish bouts and trains 3 to 4 times a week. He can still be defeated by strickly WC guy who knows nothing about the ground. Especially if the WC guy perfected not going to ground by working and sparring with skilled ground fighters. But never learning the ground game.

You really need to stop with the "what ifs" and focus on real training, much of that stuff you wrote is all wrong.

[m1k3]

I think the biggest thing that strikers need to understand is that a grappler is more comfortable in their world than they are in theirs.

While it is true there are no punches and kicks in grappling there is pushing, shoving, attempts at head control, fighting for hand and grip control, accidental forearms to the face, pokes in the eye and all sorts of other stuff that happens when you are trying to set up a take down. Hands, forearms and elbows flying around your head are not unusual.

Whereas the striker, once he is off his feet, is in uncharted territory and usually is very uncomfortable being there.

Ask any grappler the panic you feel as a noob when someone takes you down and establishes side control or mount on you, you feel like you are being crushed and you have no clue what to do. Most newbies immediately go into spaz mode and run out of gas very very quickly and a submission is never far behind.

Even if the striker isn't taken down cleanly he has no idea with how to do a scramble or even regain his feet. Grapplers practice standing back up in quick and efficient manner, how many strikers do that.

So, a reasonable scenario is a striker is caught in a takedown attempt, partially blocks it and keeps his separation as both players hit the floor. Before he can even finish standing up the grappler is slamming into him again with his next takedown attempt.

The bottom line is that it is easier for a grappler to bring you into his world that it is for you to keep the fight standing.

A great BJJ saying is "I am a shark, the ground is my ocean and most people can't even swim"

[anerlich]

For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt.

Very few if any BJJ schools will award a black belt before the age of 18. I dont think even Rickson Gracie was an exception.

I could be argued that this is child abuse, but since none of the situations you obsess about are ever going to happen, we can let that go.


take you disagree with my question??? heh?

You can only disagree with statements, not questions. You can form opinions as to whether the questioner has a mental age greater than eight, is on drugs or both. In your case my answers would be "no" and "yes" respectively as far as that question is concerned.


Tom Wong is still alive and your average ground fighter won't be able to touch him. If they try a technique on him while he is standing he will more than likely reverse it or throw them.

Well, Tom's obviously going to figfht better than all those dead guys you mentioned so he's probably a better choice as WC poster boy.

It's hard to throw groundfighters (they are already on the ground).

You seem to be desperate to find someone who's going to agree with what you dearly hope to be true, viz. a Wing Chun guy will always win, that you're doing the right thing by not cross-training, etc.

("Come on. You guys can see I'm right, can't you? I'll just keep asking the same question 100 different ways, and eventually you'll all support my desires. Won't you? Please? Huh?")

Give it up. It's not going to happen. Luck, sutuation and individual attributes always have a major impact on these things.


You really need to stop with the "what ifs" and focus on real training, much of that stuff you wrote is all wrong.

Exactly.

[anerlich]

*Sigh*


If a guy studies authenic WC for ten years. An another guy only studies MMA for ten years. Depending on their skill level would dictate who would win. If the MMA guy studied a little BJJ and Boxing and Muay Thai. But never really specialize in any one style He might be at advantage too. However his advantage would be to switch from boxing to high kicks, to ground fighting.

THe bleeding obvious. Congrats.


In other words if your fighting some who is skilled at boxing you can throw high powerful kicks.

Can you throw high powerful kicks?


if your fighting a skilled fighter who is unconditioned phyiscally you may be able to defeat him with stamina and raw power.

The only unconiditioned skilled fighters are those who are skilled in and participate in internet "what if" matches. Do you have stamina or raw power?


Slaming hard Round houses against a boxers body or hands may shut him down an make him stop trying to hit you.

Can you slam hard body kicks?


In my opinion if you are getting beat on the inside than it may be a good idea to try to wrestle the guy down an put him in a submission hold.

If you are getting beat on the inside, the other guy is better at fighting there than you are. YOU will be the one taken down. Better to get back to long range or better yet run away.


If its a one on one street fight than take him down an apply a choke hold to put him unconscious. But pray he doesn't die are you up for murder one.

People have been choked out at the Kodokan for over 100 years without a single fatality. Punch KO's (major head trauma) are far more dangerous and result in death far more often. I can think of two instances in local news this year so far. You are compeltely clueless as far as this goes.


Also you could do some arm breaks on the ground in a street fight or leg breaks. But you may have to appear in court for excessive force. So I wouldnt suggest putting a street fighter into a temporary submission hold an letting him go when he taps out. Chances are he may be get angry an when you try to get up. The fight starts all over again. An this time you might not be able to take him down a second time before he knockes your block off.

You may appear in court if you hit the guy as well. You don't put any violent criminal in a temporary submission hold or let him tap out. It's not a match, it's a crime.


Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me.

Go to a BJJ school and try this. Please. Make sure your medical insurance is up to date. BTW, it's "upa" and its a classical grappling move.

Rear mount is superior to regular mount. Congrats for making one sensible assertion in a sea of misinformation.


You take a MMA guy who has some striking ability who has been studing MMA for five years. He can still be defeated by a WC guy who has only studied for two years. Especially if the WC guy lives,works,breathes and eats WC all day every day. All his pay checks go to supplies for his WC training an his hobbies is making his WC better an sparring guys from different arts including ground fighters.

Is this WC guy you? Can't be. You spend too much time posting cluelessly on KFO instead of training for one thing.


Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.

I guess that's one way of describing it :rolleyes:

How old are you?

[Kansuke]

Also I suggest a rear mount. Ground and Pound to face is not a great idea for a street fight...Its easy to grab those nuts. When I was kid an we sprawled for fun. If I was ever taking to ground. I always squeeze the groin. jabbed it with my fingers. Bite the inner thigh,arm,chest,stomach,neck,cheek or jaw to get room to umpa the opponent off me. Also I practice chain punches laying in my bed at night before I go to sleep. Sometimes I practice SLT on my back. Just my imaginaition and creativity.



............. :rolleyes:

[clam61]

good point

look at most of the top mma guys ...they are primarily strikers

not saying they dont know how to grapple..but primarily striking. liddel, rashad, rampage, griffin, etc etc


Yes I do realize that. But a MMA guy doesn't focus on striking?

So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage. Plus his strategy will be to remain in a dominant posistion. Which is standing. So he will use antigrappling techniques and quick escape techniques when he is taking down to get back to his feet. Plus on his back he can also strike. An if he does conditioning such as iron palm,Iron fist,Iron fingers. Then even his strikes on his back can be menacing.


If you take a kick boxer who spends most of his training time punching and kicking a heavy bag,punching a wall bag filled with steel shots and Hitting a makiwara board.

First year he strikes 80lb bag
Second year he strikes a 100lb bag
Third year he strikes 200lb bag
Foruth year he strikes a 300lb bag
and Fifth year he strikes a 400 lb bag
(An he can move the 400lb bag with each strike)

This guy;s punches from the ground are still going to be devasting. Imagine him opening up chain punchs or performing a Chin Na technique on a grappling arm trying to fight for the dominant posisition. Besides no matter how skilled you are in groundfighting you won't be able to defeat every untrained fighter.

For instance lets say you train your son at age three In BJJ by age ten lets say he manages to become a black belt. Do you think your ten or eleven year old son will be able to submit Tommy "Tiny" Lister Jr., Shaquil Oneal or Ving Rhymes. I picked these two because the average Black Belt BJJ guy who are not heavy weights would have hard time fighting these guys with Wrestling techniques. They would fair better with Muay Thai or Boxing. If they have the correct conditioning and power to adminster damage upon contact. These guys to best of my ability have no ground skills. But I bet you in a real fight they would demolished most if not all middle weight and Lightweight BJJ guys. Just my opinion. Not saying they couldn't be demolished.

An in a confrontation of multiple attackers your ground defense would be useless!




Even his strikes

[Edmund]

"If ...." x 1,000

You take a MMA guy who has some striking ability who has been studing MMA for five years. He can still be defeated by a WC guy who has only studied for two years. Especially if the WC guy lives,works,breathes and eats WC all day every day. All his pay checks go to supplies for his WC training an his hobbies is making his WC better an sparring guys from different arts including ground fighters. An you got a BJJ or MMA guy who does some amateurish bouts and trains 3 to 4 times a week. He can still be defeated by strickly WC guy who knows nothing about the ground. Especially if the WC guy perfected not going to ground by working and sparring with skilled ground fighters. But never learning the ground game.

Mate, you just put a stack of hypothetical mumbo jumbo together.
Why would you fantasize about all these weird scenarios? Guys spending their pay checks on WC vs 5 year MMA guy but only with amateur bouts and a thyroid problem...

Here's a not so hypothetical question:
If *YOU*, the WC guy, want to perfect not going to ground by working and sparring with skilled ground fighters, where's the logical place to look for those guys?

MAYBE if you didn't concern yourself with who can beat whom, you wouldn't have to worry about these stupid issues: Snake vs Tiger, Panda vs Golden Gloves Mountain Goat but it's only on a hill and the cops around the corner.

The problem is: You'd like to be able to SAY you can beat a grappler without ever actually trying to do it.

All these what-if's are demonstrating how many variables are involved, so boasting "Yip Map and Tom Wong can beat a grappler" is completely daft.

You've got WC guys on this thread with plenty of real experience cross-training in grappling arts regularly. How about *listen* to what they can actually do rather than hypothesizing about what you think might happen in a bar fight because you don't like their answers?

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow this thread has made me popular. I guess all you guys who love ground fighting wish to teach me a thing or too about how superior ground fighting is...

Kansuke. Lets say a Eagle Claw fighter or WC guy who takes time to perfect their art. First WC is filled with standing grappling techniques. Some call it anti grappling. But WC is filled with Take Downs and elements of Chin na. Plus some guys in WC learn Chin Na.


So any martial artist will have some grappling experience. An on the ground you have to advoid being place into a submissive posistion. But even if someone gets you there are still things you can do outside of ring...So there are some advantages to someone who is primarily a striker. For one I would not want to be on ground with someone who is bigger or stronger than I. Even If I have more ground fighting experience over them. Their strength will be able to over power me if I take it to ground. Where as fighting with WC if your train right you learn how to defeat a bigger opponent. I personally feel in order to be great ground fighter you should be able to bench press 250lbs. To me most fights in the street don't go to ground. So I feel ground fighting is a disadvantage especially with my surroundings. My Experiences not everyones...this are my opinions from what I have seen and experience. I live in place where most of the fights are people trying to punch you continously in the face. I have not taking any wrestling classes. But one time in High school I had a fight with a big kid who tried to grapple me to ground. Here is the story...They were a group of kids who would try to bully people. My click were MA's So we didn't go along with being bullying. Anyway I was walking by my self one day. Being a Little guy weighing about
145lbs. They sicked this guy weighing what look liked 220lbs if not 250lbs...Anyway he tried to head hunt my face. So I mostly Pak Sau his 20 to 30 punches. Timing his attack so I could trap his arms. I trapped him an started hitting him with the right hand on the outside. The other kid tried to run away But held him while striking him until he stop running. Then he tried to pick me up. Okay he did pick me up and was about to drop me on the ground. I did the only thing I could. I wrapped around like a phyton...Kinda of suspect but it stopped him from slaming me on hard floor. He set me down on the ground saying let go man let go. I had my arms wrapped around his neck. So when my back softly touch the ground I let go he ran backwards as I kipped up and hit him with a double palm strike in the chest like in the dummy form.


So a person who focuses on striking will be at advantage.

So the guy who focuses on one thing will be at an advantage over the guy who focuses on that and other things? How does that make sense?

Who says that is a dominant position?

The guy who has fewer, if any, grappling skills will be able to dictate what happens in the grappling range? That makes a lot of sense.

How the hell do you know that? If those guys know nothing about grappling they will be fish on the ground.

You also don't know that. In fact, I'd bet all those guys have exchanged punches with folks in their time but probably don't have much in the way of any grappling experience.

Unless you've got some weapons and some training with them, you are very likely out of luck in any case with multiple attackers.[/QUOTE]

Yes you are right many people at one time took a striking style. My first styles were aikido and judo and later kickboxing. Yea I agree you have train both on the ground and standing. An if you fight ground fighters on a regular basis than a striker will have advantage if he specialize in striking...as for size matter. With WC it doesn't? With Tai Chi it doesn't? With Bagua It doesn't?With Xing Yi size doesn't matter!!!

As for being jumped...If you are surrounded an get knocked down then yes..but if your jumped by six to eight guys an go to ground where I live no one is going down with you...They either are going to punch you with twelve to sixteen fist or stomp you with several timberland boots in summer,winter,spring and fall time. But this is what I see in streets. When people are jumped I never seen someone grapple them on ground to gain a dominant posistion or adminster a arm break.


Many MMA come from specialized Striking backgrounds: MT, Kyokushin, Kickboxing.
Silva and GSP have SOME striking skills ;)

Dude...seriously...what are you talking about?

His punches will be as devastating as they can be IF he has trained them that way, standing punching ans ground punching are not and never have been the same thing.

Size matters LESS in grappling than it does in striking.
It still matters, a GREAT DEAL, anyone that has ever fought full contact with no weight limits knows this.

The chances of you going to the ground VS multilple attackers is HIGHER than VS just one.

In a fight...how would a typically grappler end the fight quickly?


I think the biggest thing that strikers need to understand is that a grappler is more comfortable in their world than they are in theirs.

While it is true there are no punches and kicks in grappling there is pushing, shoving, attempts at head control, fighting for hand and grip control, accidental forearms to the face, pokes in the eye and all sorts of other stuff that happens when you are trying to set up a take down. Hands, forearms and elbows flying around your head are not unusual.

Whereas the striker, once he is off his feet, is in uncharted territory and usually is very uncomfortable being there.

Ask any grappler the panic you feel as a noob when someone takes you down and establishes side control or mount on you, you feel like you are being crushed and you have no clue what to do. Most newbies immediately go into spaz mode and run out of gas very very quickly and a submission is never far behind.

Even if the striker isn't taken down cleanly he has no idea with how to do a scramble or even regain his feet. Grapplers practice standing back up in quick and efficient manner, how many strikers do that.

So, a reasonable scenario is a striker is caught in a takedown attempt, partially blocks it and keeps his separation as both players hit the floor. Before he can even finish standing up the grappler is slamming into him again with his next takedown attempt.

The bottom line is that it is easier for a grappler to bring you into his world that it is for you to keep the fight standing.

A great BJJ saying is "I am a shark, the ground is my ocean and most people can't even swim"


It was hypothetical proving that a child professional in BJJ wouldn't be able to defeat Shaq with BJJ!!!

How ever I dont think WC is best art...its the best art for me. But I think someone should spar grapplers to learn how to adapt his WC to defeating them. He needs to do this with all type of fighters. That will make you well rounded. But to me I see ground fighting as impractical in my world outside of sprawling with guys which I haven't done in years or actual mma competitions.

As for trying to get those who love Ground fighting to see it as defeatable by a pure striker. Although WC is not pure striking...But ne way. I am saying yes a BJJ fighter can defeat a WC guy. Even if the BJJ guy has no striking experience. I also believe a WC guy can defeat a grappler before being taking to the ground and possibly defeat him on ground by escaping.



Very few if any BJJ schools will award a black belt before the age of 18. I dont think even Rickson Gracie was an exception.

I could be argued that this is child abuse, but since none of the situations you obsess about are ever going to happen, we can let that go.



You can only disagree with statements, not questions. You can form opinions as to whether the questioner has a mental age greater than eight, is on drugs or both. In your case my answers would be "no" and "yes" respectively as far as that question is concerned.



Well, Tom's obviously going to figfht better than all those dead guys you mentioned so he's probably a better choice as WC poster boy.

It's hard to throw groundfighters (they are already on the ground).

You seem to be desperate to find someone who's going to agree with what you dearly hope to be true, viz. a Wing Chun guy will always win, that you're doing the right thing by not cross-training, etc.

("Come on. You guys can see I'm right, can't you? I'll just keep asking the same question 100 different ways, and eventually you'll all support my desires. Won't you? Please? Huh?")

Give it up. It's not going to happen. Luck, sutuation and individual attributes always have a major impact on these things.


Exactly.

[Yoshiyahu]

I don't do high kicks any more...
I have some stamina and some power. But as for uncondition skilled fighters. Well alot of Tai Chi guys are not conditioned but has alot skill!
I am 32 anerlich sorry for offending you and your art!



*Sigh*



THe bleeding obvious. Congrats.



Can you throw high powerful kicks?



The only unconiditioned skilled fighters are those who are skilled in and participate in internet "what if" matches. Do you have stamina or raw power?



Can you slam hard body kicks?



If you are getting beat on the inside, the other guy is better at fighting there than you are. YOU will be the one taken down. Better to get back to long range or better yet run away.



People have been choked out at the Kodokan for over 100 years without a single fatality. Punch KO's (major head trauma) are far more dangerous and result in death far more often. I can think of two instances in local news this year so far. You are compeltely clueless as far as this goes.



You may appear in court if you hit the guy as well. You don't put any violent criminal in a temporary submission hold or let him tap out. It's not a match, it's a crime.



Go to a BJJ school and try this. Please. Make sure your medical insurance is up to date. BTW, it's "upa" and its a classical grappling move.

Rear mount is superior to regular mount. Congrats for making one sensible assertion in a sea of misinformation.



Is this WC guy you? Can't be. You spend too much time posting cluelessly on KFO instead of training for one thing.



I guess that's one way of describing it :rolleyes:

How old are you?





Well my view point is concerning Non cross training WC guys...Which i haven't met any on this forum...But I understand you guys love BJJ..more power to you. If you love the art have at it. I never found myself being able to use ground techniques in actual confortation. I mean I could take the guy to ground. But if I do it would be to run or stomp his face. Not get in a dominant posistion. I feel that is wasted energy and not effecient. But this is my opinion....


As for my stance on WC defeating BJJ...I am saying both arts are great. An both arts can defeat one another with out cross training. I just surprise that you guys think that average WC guy has to cross train in bjj to be able to defeat a ground guy...An a BJJ guy has to have previous striking experience to be able to defend against a WC or Muay Thai guy?


I believe if some one practices Tai Chi long enough he won't have to cross train in order to beat a Grappler,striker,external fighter,internal fighter...I am not saying that the Tai Chi guy can beat everyone it all depends on the skill level.

If you study WC You can still be beat one day by a highly skilled

Boxer
Karate Man
Ground Fighter
Tae Kwon Do guy...

If you study BJJ or Jiujitsu you can still be defeated by highly skilled

Pure Boxer
Karate Man
Wing Chun Guy
TKD guy
Another Grappler

An these fighters don't have to cross train to defeat you. They can simply defeat you because they are more skilled at fighting irregardless if you have an advantage with long range kicks,inside fighting,ground fighting,raw power and conditioning. It all depends on skill and time and chance.

Why Can't you guys see what I am saying...I am saying just because you cross train that doesn't really vaccinate you from being defeated by a WC guy who never cross trained. Can I Defeat you grapplers. I don't know. Would I try sure why not...Come to St.louis. My email address is kohen_hagadol@yahoo.com
I will try to accomodate you. If my statement makes you want to prove something by submitting me an showing how good your Ground fighting is have it. I would love the experience so I work on defeating your style by fighting with many of you!!!!



Mate, you just put a stack of hypothetical mumbo jumbo together.
Why would you fantasize about all these weird scenarios? Guys spending their pay checks on WC vs 5 year MMA guy but only with amateur bouts and a thyroid problem...

Here's a not so hypothetical question:
If *YOU*, the WC guy, want to perfect not going to ground by working and sparring with skilled ground fighters, where's the logical place to look for those guys?

MAYBE if you didn't concern yourself with who can beat whom, you wouldn't have to worry about these stupid issues: Snake vs Tiger, Panda vs Golden Gloves Mountain Goat but it's only on a hill and the cops around the corner.

The problem is: You'd like to be able to SAY you can beat a grappler without ever actually trying to do it.

All these what-if's are demonstrating how many variables are involved, so boasting "Yip Map and Tom Wong can beat a grappler" is completely daft.

You've got WC guys on this thread with plenty of real experience cross-training in grappling arts regularly. How about *listen* to what they can actually do rather than hypothesizing about what you think might happen in a bar fight because you don't like their answers?

[AdrianK]

Can I Defeat you grapplers. I don't know. Would I try sure why not...Come to St.louis.

I guess they don't have any BJJ, Judo, Sambo or Wrestling in St Louis, Missouri. :confused:

Go down to one of the places, ask to spar one of their guys. You don't need one of us to come down and show you how its done. You want knowledge? People are trying to tell you, go out and get it!



If you study WC You can still be beat one day by a highly skilled

Boxer
Karate Man
Ground Fighter
Tae Kwon Do guy...

If you study BJJ or Jiujitsu you can still be defeated by highly skilled

Pure Boxer
Karate Man
Wing Chun Guy
TKD guy
Another Grappler

And someone who has been studying every day of their life any style, can be defeated by someone who never learned anything.

The human body is the only true "style". Boxing, WC, BJJ, they just give you templates and concepts on how to use it. If theres one thing competition shows us, it is that when fighting someone who you don't know much(and on the street, anything) about, preparation is the key. Being prepared for what can happen.

[anerlich]

I am mr popular

Popular is probably the wrong word.


I am 32 anerlich sorry for offending you and your art!

You're didn't offendi me. You lack the capabilities. As for my art, you've demonstrated you know nothing about it. That doesn't bother me at all.


I guess all you guys who love ground fighting wish to teach me a thing or too about how superior ground fighting is...

Not really. Your choice to stay ignorant or to wise up doesn't concern me at all.


I never found myself being able to use ground techniques in actual confortation.

Why would this surprise anyone?


Come to St.louis.

With you and Terence as representatives of the local populace? Thanks but no thanks.


Why Can't you guys see what I am saying...

WE can. We've heard it all before (in those old threads you won't read) and are sick of hearing it.


If my statement makes you want to prove something

What's to prove? We've come to our own conclusions based on experience. If it's to prove whether our opinons regarding your ignorance is correct, the evidence is already here on this forum.


But one time in High school I had a fight with a big kid who tried to grapple me to ground. Here is the story...They were a group of kids who would try to bully people. My click were MA's So we didn't go along with being bullying. Anyway I was walking by my self one day. Being a Little guy weighing about
145lbs. They sicked this guy weighing what look liked 220lbs if not 250lbs...Anyway he tried to head hunt my face. So I mostly Pak Sau his 20 to 30 punches. Timing his attack so I could trap his arms. I trapped him an started hitting him with the right hand on the outside. The other kid tried to run away But held him while striking him until he stop running. Then he tried to pick me up. Okay he did pick me up and was about to drop me on the ground. I did the only thing I could. I wrapped around like a phyton...Kinda of suspect but it stopped him from slaming me on hard floor. He set me down on the ground saying let go man let go. I had my arms wrapped around his neck. So when my back softly touch the ground I let go he ran backwards as I kipped up and hit him with a double palm strike in the chest like in the dummy form.


I find this highly unlikely.

[Askari Hodari]

I think that you have two basic options in training for this scenario.

1) Train in a ground fighting art or at a MMA gym.
2) Train in a system of WC that has incorporated ground counters and defense. Randy Williams just came out with a DVD that discusses this. This is also discussed in vol. 2 of Close Range Combat WC. There are other videos out there too.

I think that the important thing here it to actually train. This means moving beyond the theoretical to the applied science.

I've done both of the above and its worked out well for me so far. Right now I'd really like to train Judo constituently for 24-36 months. In my experience many of the principles of WC can be found in arts like this, particularly trapping, controlling, etc. I say this because you may find that training in a ground fighting system augments your WC.

[Violent Designs]

good point

look at most of the top mma guys ...they are primarily strikers

not saying they dont know how to grapple..but primarily striking. liddel, rashad, rampage, griffin, etc etc

Big Nog = grappler
Frank Mir = grappler
Fedor = grappler
Brock Lesnar = grappler
Randy Couture = grappler
Jeff Monson = grappler
Renato Sobral = grappler
Ricardo Arona = grappler
Kenny Florian = grappler

[bennyvt]

who is tom Wong, who says he can beat any of the people you metioned. I never heard that YM or WSL fought grapplers, tell me more.

[Edmund]

Why Can't you guys see what I am saying...I am saying just because you cross train that doesn't really vaccinate you from being defeated by a WC guy who never cross trained. Can I Defeat you grapplers. I don't know. Would I try sure why not...Come to St.louis. My email address is kohen_hagadol@yahoo.com


I got zero emotional investment in seeing you lose or win. That's why I said quit worrying about who can beat who. I'm not going to St Louis. I'm in Australia. Plus you've basically come up with ball grabbing and biting as your best ideas. Who would visit a psycho ball-grabbing biter to spar with them? You've pretty much asked them to knock your teeth out and snap your arm as quick as they can.

Don't you get it? It doesn't matter who you can beat. Whether Shaq beats a 10 year old. Whether BJJ beats WC. Guys who train *both* grappling and WC don't give a ****. They do BOTH.

The fact that even you *don't know* who you can beat just shows that there's plenty of variables involved and you've also got no black and white answers. So making profound statements about Yip Man back alive and he's 40 years old and he's at a bar so he can bite the balls of a MMA guy with only a few amateur bouts...

It's just some weird fantasy match in your head (as you lie in bed doing SLT).

"I wanna beat a wrestler without learning or even interacting with any wrestlers. Can people who have some experience with wrestling or wrestlers tell me I'll be OK? Because I don't want to hear anything else. I'll practice the moves in the air while on my back. I've squeezed some balls while rolling around as a little kid...."

You know, I'm hilariously reminded of old posts of Terence, who actually used to be a "pure" WC guy who felt cross training is detrimental. His argument was it was biomechanically incompatible to do WC and grappling or MT or kickboxing or anything else. Now HE'S the one insisting that you cross-train to join his group and YOU'RE the one saying "No! I want to just do WC."

It's like the Circle of Life.

[Yoshiyahu]

How do you prepare on street against a fighter you don't know anything about or have no idea what training he has or doesn't have???




I guess they don't have any BJJ, Judo, Sambo or Wrestling in St Louis, Missouri. :confused:

Go down to one of the places, ask to spar one of their guys. You don't need one of us to come down and show you how its done. You want knowledge? People are trying to tell you, go out and get it!




And someone who has been studying every day of their life any style, can be defeated by someone who never learned anything.

The human body is the only true "style". Boxing, WC, BJJ, they just give you templates and concepts on how to use it. If theres one thing competition shows us, it is that when fighting someone who you don't know much(and on the street, anything) about, preparation is the key. Being prepared for what can happen.


anerlich you don't think very highly of me do you?

What city do you stay in? and What styles of MA's do you study?


Popular is probably the wrong word.



You're didn't offendi me. You lack the capabilities. As for my art, you've demonstrated you know nothing about it. That doesn't bother me at all.



Not really. Your choice to stay ignorant or to wise up doesn't concern me at all.



Why would this surprise anyone?



With you and Terence as representatives of the local populace? Thanks but no thanks.



WE can. We've heard it all before (in those old threads you won't read) and are sick of hearing it.



What's to prove? We've come to our own conclusions based on experience. If it's to prove whether our opinons regarding your ignorance is correct, the evidence is already here on this forum.



I find this highly unlikely.



Tom Wong info is found on "Is Wing Chun Useless"




who is tom Wong, who says he can beat any of the people you metioned. I never heard that YM or WSL fought grapplers, tell me more.



You made me laugh ha ha...When sprawling with friends...No you don't bite balls and nipples and other body parts...wow lmao....you had me bugging up...wow...that was pretty good actually. I can see you have a sense of humor or either your really pessimistic. Ha Ha... Well if you knock a wing chun guy teeth out even his gums can be used against the scrotums as a weapon. Its not teeth alone that hurts to scrotums but the pressure from the jaw too. Plus a good head butt works well too if you could pull it off.

No No you got me wrong. I am saying you don't have to cross train Ground fighting. But you need to spar ground fighters and study and adapt your WC to defeat them easily. Find out what works and what doesn't by noticing your weakness,openings and correcting them.

I have no black and white answers...I am not saying WC is the style that can beat all styles. What I am saying is pure WC is not bad. Nor is crosstraining deterimental. If your into sport fighting crosstraining may be pretty good. But also being a purist would be a breath of fresh air if you win many bouts. But a pure Boxer,Karate guy or Kung Fu guy will have rules against his art. Which would limit him. I would love to see the gloves come off for the boxers and muay thai fighters.





I got zero emotional investment in seeing you lose or win. That's why I said quit worrying about who can beat who. I'm not going to St Louis. I'm in Australia. Plus you've basically come up with ball grabbing and biting as your best ideas. Who would visit a psycho ball-grabbing biter to spar with them? You've pretty much asked them to knock your teeth out and snap your arm as quick as they can.

Don't you get it? It doesn't matter who you can beat. Whether Shaq beats a 10 year old. Whether BJJ beats WC. Guys who train *both* grappling and WC don't give a ****. They do BOTH.

The fact that even you *don't know* who you can beat just shows that there's plenty of variables involved and you've also got no black and white answers. So making profound statements about Yip Man back alive and he's 40 years old and he's at a bar so he can bite the balls of a MMA guy with only a few amateur bouts...

It's just some weird fantasy match in your head (as you lie in bed doing SLT).

"I wanna beat a wrestler without learning or even interacting with any wrestlers. Can people who have some experience with wrestling or wrestlers tell me I'll be OK? Because I don't want to hear anything else. I'll practice the moves in the air while on my back. I've squeezed some balls while rolling around as a little kid...."

You know, I'm hilariously reminded of old posts of Terence, who actually used to be a "pure" WC guy who felt cross training is detrimental. His argument was it was biomechanically incompatible to do WC and grappling or MT or kickboxing or anything else. Now HE'S the one insisting that you cross-train to join his group and YOU'RE the one saying "No! I want to just do WC."

It's like the Circle of Life.

If i was to try a grappling art it would be Chin Na. Maybe Judo for the throws. I took a little judo and aikido as a child. But I never really liked those type of styles. I have always been inlove with Kung Fu as a child. So Kung fu has always been my passion. Plus to me ground fighting is great for the ring...But WC is made for street fighting. To me I think a BJJ guy will win in ring but a WC guy will win in the streets. Many others feel the same way in the world.

But its nothing wrong with ground fighting if thats what you like. I perfer to practice WC. An if i was to cross train I would try Muay Thai like Terrence said and also maybe karate....But it would be for certain attributes...

Karate: Makiwara board training and bricks breaking.

Muay Thai: Shin conditioning.

Those are the two things I would enjoy...

But of course I often thought of cross training

Tiger: For developing Claws that Rip and Tear.
Eagle claw : For developing hard talons.
Snake: For developing hard finger strikes.
Traditional Baguazhang: Iron Palm and Iron body.


These styles interest me for various kungs that can use in street combat!

But again folks this is my opinion. I never said I am correct. I am no body just spurting out his opinions...Opinions are like butt holes everyone has one!

I think that you have two basic options in training for this scenario.

1) Train in a ground fighting art or at a MMA gym.
2) Train in a system of WC that has incorporated ground counters and defense. Randy Williams just came out with a DVD that discusses this. This is also discussed in vol. 2 of Close Range Combat WC. There are other videos out there too.

I think that the important thing here it to actually train. This means moving beyond the theoretical to the applied science.

I've done both of the above and its worked out well for me so far. Right now I'd really like to train Judo constituently for 24-36 months. In my experience many of the principles of WC can be found in arts like this, particularly trapping, controlling, etc. I say this because you may find that training in a ground fighting system augments your WC.

[Kansuke]

Kansuke. Lets say a Eagle Claw fighter or WC guy who takes time to perfect their art. First WC is filled with standing grappling techniques. Some call it anti grappling. But WC is filled with Take Downs and elements of Chin na. Plus some guys in WC learn Chin Na.



Seriously kid, how old are you?

[anerlich]

anerlich you don't think very highly of me do you?

I don't know you.

You have strong opinions and talk way WAY too much on subjects on which you lack knowledge. Those traits are not endearing.


What city do you stay in?

You can find this in my profile and on top of my posts. Sydney AUS.


and What styles of MA's do you study?

Wing Chun, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MMA, plus I muck around with a few weapons. I studied Xingyi and Bagua about 25 years ago for about 5 years. Most of that is in my profile.

There is a link to my instructor's academy website in my .sig.

[AdrianK]

How do you prepare on street against a fighter you don't know anything about or have no idea what training he has or doesn't have???

You train in the most common ways you're going to have to defend yourself!

You get experience in how people generally punch(boxing is the most common way in the US), you get experience in how people generally kick, you get experience in how people generally throw and wrestle, how people generally use guns, how people generally use knives. And you get experience in how people fight in groups. And you improvise for the rest based on the concepts you've learned.

Did I miss anything? Cause its seriously not that ****in' hard! You don't need to train to fight killer robots for gods sake. How many unique situations do you REALLY think there are, in fighting???

[AdrianK]

Plus to me ground fighting is great for the ring...But WC is made for street fighting. To me I think a BJJ guy will win in ring but a WC guy will win in the streets. Many others feel the same way in the world.

Thats great that you feel that way. Hey, why don't you go talk to a few bouncers at some rowdy clubs and ask them what they train in?

Oh hey, even better, go challenge a BJJ guy to a street fight and see what happens.

[Yoshiyahu]

I am 32 really




Seriously kid, how old are you?



Thank you for answering my questions. I found this quite interesting...great...what are some of the weaknesses of Ground fighting?


What are somethings in a street fight that makes ground fighting dangerous to use against certain arts? and what art?



You train in the most common ways you're going to have to defend yourself!

You get experience in how people generally punch(boxing is the most common way in the US), you get experience in how people generally kick, you get experience in how people generally throw and wrestle, how people generally use guns, how people generally use knives. And you get experience in how people fight in groups. And you improvise for the rest based on the concepts you've learned.

Did I miss anything? Cause its seriously not that ****in' hard! You don't need to train to fight killer robots for gods sake. How many unique situations do you REALLY think there are, in fighting???

[AdrianK]

Thank you for answering my questions. I found this quite interesting...great...what are some of the weaknesses of Ground fighting?

The immobility of being attached to another person, and the lack of striking. Many grappling styles have their own fair share of problems too.



What are somethings in a street fight that makes ground fighting dangerous to use against certain arts? and what art?

Someone who knows grappling, has the advantage on the ground. Whether they want to gouge out your eyes, rip your ears off, or play as nasty as you can. They have the advantage on the ground. The ground is a range or you can look at it like a game. Those that play the game, have a major advantage when playing that game. Those that don't, suffer a significant disadvantage. Likewise, If they don't know how to strike, or take a strike, they have a disadvantage on their feet, and in striking.

[Edmund]

No No you got me wrong. I am saying you don't have to cross train Ground fighting. But you need to spar ground fighters and study and adapt your WC to defeat them easily.


Good to know. Thanks for that. How about you take your own advice?
Because hugging a fat ass back in high school doesn't really count.



Find out what works and what doesn't by noticing your weakness,openings and correcting them.

Mate you haven't even done that. So why are you giving advice on what someone should and shouldn't to train?



What I am saying is pure WC is not bad. Nor is crosstraining deterimental. If your into sport fighting crosstraining may be pretty good. But also being a purist would be a breath of fresh air if you win many bouts.


If it's not detrimental, quit trying to justify not wanting to do it with stupid hypotheticals.

[Yoshiyahu]

Actually I do practice sprawling and counters with a police officer friend of mines. We practice many other techniques to work WC against them.

As for sparring and drilling i work various ranges..from long to ground to kneeling to sitting to standing.

As for detrimental it depends on the fighter really. anyway all i can say is cross training is not the end all to be all...getting ground experience doesn't gurantee you can defeat a skilled WC guy who has no ground defense...here in USA every body got some ground experience. Especially me since my friends were a WC guy who wrestled. another guy who weightlifted and wrestled. an another guy who did muay thai and some boxing!

So over all I had just a little exposure to those ranges in high school....among other things!








Good to know. Thanks for that. How about you take your own advice?
Because hugging a fat ass back in high school doesn't really count.




Mate you haven't even done that. So why are you giving advice on what someone should and shouldn't to train?



If it's not detrimental, quit trying to justify not wanting to do it with stupid hypotheticals.


Question isn't possible to use the person body to move around them while being attached. Also can you not manipulate your opponent to strike them effieiciently on the ground especially in Gaurd or in the dominant posistion?

What grappling styles incorporates striking with joint locks and submission holds?



The immobility of being attached to another person, and the lack of striking. Many grappling styles have their own fair share of problems too.




Someone who knows grappling, has the advantage on the ground. Whether they want to gouge out your eyes, rip your ears off, or play as nasty as you can. They have the advantage on the ground. The ground is a range or you can look at it like a game. Those that play the game, have a major advantage when playing that game. Those that don't, suffer a significant disadvantage. Likewise, If they don't know how to strike, or take a strike, they have a disadvantage on their feet, and in striking.

[bennyvt]

any one good would have jumped and landed on you if you just wrap around them when they picked you up. Watch hughes he does it all the time. Sorry about the bad english im an aussie and im using my phone so preemptive text stuffs it up if i dont look carefully

[AdrianK]

Question isn't possible to use the person body to move around them while being attached.

By mobility I mean, if he pulls out a knife or gun, or a bunch of his friends come up, you can't easily run away. Yes, its entirely possible to move around them on the ground.



Also can you not manipulate your opponent to strike them effieiciently on the ground especially in Gaurd or in the dominant posistion?

In theory you could do most of the same techniques on the ground that you can standing up.

In reality, theres quite a few differences. Its not that you can't apply wing chun to the ground - Its that you can't apply wing chun to the ground effectively without first learning the ground game to begin with. The most common and effective movements and concepts that have been established by accomplished people in the style. How many pure Wing Chun guys have won even the lowest level grappling tournament? Oh thats right... none. Honestly, just go to a BJJ school and try out a free class. Ask to play around with one of their senior students. Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and find out.



What grappling styles incorporates striking with joint locks and submission holds?

Many MMA gyms will do this.
The fact of the matter is, the search for the all-encompassing everything style is ridiculous. There is no style that has it all. Most styles are severely lacking in one area or another, like BJJ and striking, or Wing Chun and Grappling. Thats why you cross-train in various styles.

And then further down that road, there are no styles. Only concepts you know and understand, and your own personal expressive movements that came from the templates you learned. Everything should flow into one another.

[Kansuke]

Who thinks this Yoshiyahu is either a 13 year old kid, another screen name for hw108, or both?

[AdrianK]

Speaking of which, Yoshiyahu - Who is your Sifu? There is no one in Missouri listed on the Yuen Kay San Wing Chun website's directory. And theres only a few yip man schools there even that popup in a yellow pages search...

[anerlich]

Who thinks this Yoshiyahu is either a 13 year old kid, another screen name for hw108, or both?

Yes to the first, no to the second.

Though if they nuthug any harder they may merge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Honestly, just go to a BJJ school and try out a free class. Ask to play around with one of their senior students. Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and find out.



.

Why do people have a hard time doing this?

You have all these "ideas" about what you THINK may work, why wouldn't you wanna find out if they DO work?
Even more so if you profess to be all about "real fighting".

[m1k3]

Honestly, just go to a BJJ school and try out a free class. Ask to play around with one of their senior students. Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and find out.



You don't even need to ask for a senior student. Pick a white belt with 3 or four stripes and find out how little you know about grappling. And remember, he's just a white belt, the bottom rung of the BJJ hierarchy.

[SimonM]

As for the old "pull a knife" chestnut...

Blade fighting is as different from punch / kick fighting as it is from wrestling. A good blade fighter will have some techniques reminiscent of both predicated upon the three cardinal rules of fighting with a sharp weapon:

1) Don't get stabbed. (This is rule 1, seriously any fighting art that incorporates blade techniques and doesn't make this priority #1 has a problem.)
2) Stab the other guy.
3) Don't lose your blade.

The length of the blade will further complicate this. Fighting with a 3 inch knife will be much more grapple-friendly than fighting with a greatsword.

Please note that "take away the other guy's blade" doesn't make the list. This is because many knife stripping techniques significantly increase the risk of getting stabbed.

If you can strip a blade without violating rule 1 it'd still be #4 after stabbing the other guy and not losing your blade.

[anerlich]

Actually I do practice sprawling and counters with a police officer friend of mines. We practice many other techniques to work WC against them.

As for sparring and drilling i work various ranges..from long to ground to kneeling to sitting to standing.

As for detrimental it depends on the fighter really. anyway all i can say is cross training is not the end all to be all...getting ground experience doesn't gurantee you can defeat a skilled WC guy who has no ground defense...here in USA every body got some ground experience. Especially me since my friends were a WC guy who wrestled. another guy who weightlifted and wrestled. an another guy who did muay thai and some boxing!


So, in the unlikely event that anyone takes your claims as gospel, you basically claim to have done exactly what you are saying we shouldn't have to do, viz practice on the ground, various scenarios, sprawling, etc. And your friends are a bunch of crosstrainers anyway - if they are not imaginary friends.

WTF are you on about?

Your stories are so full of inconsistencies, obvious howlers that anyone who had done what you claim to have done would never think, let alone type, and standard schoolboy exaggeration, that no one could possibly believe them, or that you are 32 years old.

Nothing can guarantee you a win in a fight against anybody. Too many variables. Avoidance is the best option if at all possible, especially for the clueless (go to the mirror, boy).

[Yoshiyahu]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923094&postcount=45

check out this post to those who asked on this thread about tom wong!

[bennyvt]

the dude that held off a couple of wrestlers with his chi. R u joking. People that still write that **** need to know that most people read it and go "wanker". I wish I still had the adress of the video put on here a while ago with the old guy that said he could beat anyone with his chi stirkes and a wrestler challenged him and completly ****ed him up.
Does everyone do the bridge not using the neck. I was taught this way, have read many articles from gotch and burns on the importance of it. I do it against my mate and he is about 100kgs, Im only 55kgs. Without using your head you dont get the right arch in your back and the training helps with a good suplex (which is what my mate does if he gets me in the air.) Do you think this is because it was used with rules that stated that shoulders on ground was a pin (as was already stated) or it is the best way to do it. I know BJJ guys mostly use their shoulders, but judo also uses the head and they beat helio so it must mean something. I read alot from matt furey who I thought was only a fitness guy but had some things with carl gotch that seemed good. Then I read a thing supposedly from gotch about how furey was full of ****. Can anyone comment, mainly victor as he said he does catch. Thanks:D

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, Anyone good. But these guys were just bullies. Sure some of them may have been high school wrestlers. But my thought was if I go down I will stay connected until he lands down. He can not hold on to me while he flops down. I would be hurt bad but have enough time to escape from him when he tried to get up. But I knew if I didn't wrap around him. He would have just toss me in the air.



any one good would have jumped and landed on you if you just wrap around them when they picked you up. Watch hughes he does it all the time. Sorry about the bad english im an aussie and im using my phone so preemptive text stuffs it up if i dont look carefully


As for gospel...Who am I no body. Not any body special. My belief is a good ground fighter who is skilled can take any striker to ground and submit him....A good Wing Chun fighter who is skilled can advoid the ground thus defeating a grappler.

What I am saying is cross training is not the end all. Its nothing wrong with Cross training wrestling. If you like wrestling an plan on using in as sport then go at it. But mostly in fights I have seen in street the closet you get to wrestling is clinch fighting like WC or Muay Thai.


But you guys live in different cities than me. So alot of the guys you interact with are wrestlers. Everyone where I live are just trying to head hunt...Meaning they want to knock your head off. I see more women rolling on the ground than I do men. But usually they are not trying to submit but just get in a dominant posistion to hit the other girl in the face. An when someone goes to ground its not due to a shoot either. Its because your pulled down by your hair. Knocked down by a punch connecting at the right place. Or just simply trip over a rock or curb. As for my stories. Its nothing. Its my mere past experience as a youngin. If you don't believe I am 32 thats fine. I wish I wasn't 32. I wish I was still a school boy under my parents roof. Still eating for free. Playing Nintendo with mario brothers,mortal combat and double dragon. I wish I didn't have to keep up with rent, electricity, gas car insurance, credit card payments and the hassle of bosses at a job. I wish my only duty was to go to school five days a week an meet pretty girls. Those days are done for me. But If any of you have a magic wand and reinstitute those days for me an presto me back to being 16 again. By all means please do. But give me the knowledge I have now. Everything I know now let me keep. So I can make some changes in my life from back then. But phyiscally change back a whipping sixteen year old with a head full of hair. Man the receeding hair line and ball spot aint all its crack up to me!

As for nothing gurantees winning a fight. Well actually practice helps give you favor. Sparring helps give you experience but a real fight is totally different than sparring, practice, chi sau, sprawling, and even MMA competitions. The bloke your fighting isn't trying to work on his technique,tap you out by way of submission or be able to defend agaist your attacks. Your enemy is trying hurt you badly. In some cases he may even be trying to kill you depending on his mental state. So going to ground could mean your life ending if he can get you there. Regardless if you have a good ground game. Getting jumped by twelve guys an taking one to ground is not a good idea in my opinion. I know no one here think that is either. If you think your ground skills can protect you in an altercation against 12 angry thugs than have it. I would advise against though. But a actual fight is scary. Its not something that any one can say I know I am going to win. You dont know but if you come out unscaved and alive than you are thankful for your training in Muay Thai,Karate,Tae Kwon Do or MMA.

I am not on here saying my WC is the best or I can beat everyone on the forum. I may even be worst fighter on here. It doesn't really matter to me. My statement still stands. I don't personally like BJJ. Thats my opinion. I never said its a bad art. If you love Wrestling have at it. The only reason I practice WC is I love doing it. Its a apart of me. The whole you need a ground thing to be a well rounded fighter is find for you but not everyone. I mean if I plan to go to compete in mma tournies than yes maybe I would learn a couple of techniques from bjj.

As for spralwing with friends. I do that because some of friends were wrestlers. An yes they were better wrestlers than Me. But thats mostly because they like wrestling. I am the type that likes to do and see striking. I miss the days of watching strikers in the cage. I miss those days of watching a karate guy fight a boxer. Muay Thai vs Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do vs Tang So Do. Thats what I like to see. But in the end it all comes too who is the most skilled. I don't personally believe that every striker needs to get a ground game in order to defeat a wrestler. It may help but not all the time. I mean wrestling is what you like. Cool but WC doesn't have to conform. Its standing art. If you add a whole bunch of non chinese elements to WC is still WC?


Am I saying that WC can beat every art NO!

Am I saying that BJJ can be every art with out a ground game? No you guys are saying that if someone practices BJJ and fights someone who has no ground experience the BJJ fighter is always going to win!!! I totally disagree.

You feel that if you study BJJ and Muay Thai and some boxing that you can beat anybody who only studies one art by simply getting them to ground. Once you got them to ground its all over for them. So in other words you are saying your martial mix is the be all to end all. An unless someone adopts your ideology and follows suit like you they can not beat you. The old scenario if you can't beat them join them. I disagree with this. Again its nothing wrong with crosstraining arts you care for or interested in. Its nothing wrong with wrestling in fact it can be alot of fun if you are good at it.

But I totally do not think in other to beat one of you MMA guys someone has to become one. Thats like saying in order to beat a boxer you need to take up boxing. In other to beat a Karate guy you need to take up Karate. In order to beat a Crane fighter take up Crane. In other to defeat a BJJ guy you need to learn BJJ or something close. Do you see what I am saying and why I disagree.

You may not see it because you are bias to your own ideology. But the whole thing that bothers me is that you guys think someone has to become like you in order to beat you instead of just being who they already are?

So, in the unlikely event that anyone takes your claims as gospel, you basically claim to have done exactly what you are saying we shouldn't have to do, viz practice on the ground, various scenarios, sprawling, etc. And your friends are a bunch of crosstrainers anyway - if they are not imaginary friends.

WTF are you on about?

Your stories are so full of inconsistencies, obvious howlers that anyone who had done what you claim to have done would never think, let alone type, and standard schoolboy exaggeration, that no one could possibly believe them, or that you are 32 years old.

Nothing can guarantee you a win in a fight against anybody. Too many variables. Avoidance is the best option if at all possible, especially for the clueless (go to the mirror, boy).


Response to Kansuke:

I am sorry I offended you. I am just simply saying I don't think Cross training is the end all to defeating people who do not cross train. Its like this you got five fighters
1.One Studies only Boxing
2.Another studies only Muay Thai
3.The third one studies only Hung Gar
4.Studies only Karate
5.The Fifth studies both Wing Chun and BJJ

From what I been reading since the fifth guy has a ground game he will be defeat the boxer,MT guy,Hung Ga guy and Karate guy by just simply taking them down and submitting them or breaking their arm?

The reason I disagree because if that was the case. Then single Martial Schools would close down or all become MMA schools. If that was the case there is no need to take a single Marital Art. Just learn a mix. I seen good wrestlers get there arse kick in school by mediorce fighters with no striking experience outside school fights! Does that mean wrestling is bad. No thats not what I am saying.

I am simply saying studing a striking art and ground fighting art is not going to gurantee you win every fight against a Muay Thai guy. Even if you can get him to ground. Further more every striker you won't be able take down. Thats like saying all you need to do is study a little boxing and grappling. An all you need to do is knock out every grappler before he can take you down. Now Mike Tyson in his hayday could knock people out in thrity seconds. But not all the time. It depends on the endurance an skill of the other fighter. So again skill comes into play.

Not everyone who practices striking can defeat another striker!

Not everyone who practices striker can defeat all grapplers!

Not everyone who practices grappling can defeat another grappler!

Not everyone who practices grappling can defeat all strikers!

To all of you who disagree with my post!!!!!!!!!

Question If you study both a striking art and grappling art do you believe you can defeat every Martial Artist who only studies striking with not ground game?

Kansuke said: Kid, you are a delusional little moron trying all too transparently to convince yourself (by arguing with us) that your preconcieved notions and preterminded conclusions can somehow alter reality. If you are lucky you will never run into the cold dose of 'life outside the kwoon' that you seem to be begging for.

[Kansuke]

Kid, you are a delusional little moron trying all too transparently to convince yourself (by arguing with us) that your preconcieved notions and preterminded conclusions can somehow alter reality. If you are lucky you will never run into the cold dose of 'life outside the kwoon' that you seem to be begging for.

[taai gihk yahn]

yoshiyahu: what's your point? you are all over the place in terms of your "ifs" and qualifications;

look, it's simple: the more skill sets you have, the more ranges you can fight in effectively, the better your chances are of doing well in both competition like MMA and in a "real" street fight; of course, MMA is not like the "real" street, but if you look around it is probably the closest thing to it; of course, you can train TCMA in an "MMA" style, meaning that when you spar you work in whatever range you come into, from striking to grappling; I mean, what's the point to arguing all this? if you want to be a good fighter, you learn as much good stuff as is available to you: you find gyms / schools where people train hard, spar as realistically as possible, work against resistance in a "live" environment; and if you like WC, that's great, train it for all its worth; and it's fine not to do BJJ (or another grappling approach) if you don't like it, but in this day and age not having some ground skills in any context puts you behind the curve: if you are a only striker and someone else is only a grappler, it could go either way, but personally, I'd rather have some idea of what the grappler might want to do in order to be able to counter it with striking, and the best way to know what he's gonna do is to train it yourself, so it's in your own body (meaning that training against what a grappler might do is ok, but it's not as effective, IMPE, as getting into his perspective yourself)

also, you are getting stuck on "style versus style"; of course, to a certain degree it's the style (I mean, I would go for MT or BJJ before Kuk Sool Won in terms of practical effectiveness, that's for sure, LOL), but then you have to take account things like physical skill, strength, size, conditioning, emotional state, environment, sequence of events, etc. - all these variables make any "real" encounter highly unpredictable - one trains a variety of skill sets in order to try to control as many of these variables as possible; heck, walking down the street on the "correct" side projecting a confident attitude takes care of a lot of that as well (not being on that street at 3 AM also does); and sometimes you just can't avoid it, sh1t happens even to the best prepared;

life is life - you can pose as man hypotheticals as you like, and you can rationalize why you might or might not want to do a [particular art, but instead of theorizing, I personally have found that most growth occurs when one goes outside of one's comfort zone and tries something that one may not necessarily like, but couldn't hurt to have...

[anerlich]

I see more women rolling on the ground than I do men. But usually they are not trying to submit but just get in a dominant posistion to hit the other girl in the face.

You need to stay away from those bars.


Do you see what I am saying and why I disagree.

You may not see it because you are bias to your own ideology.

What you say keeps changing, and the reason people don't respect you is because you blather on and on with rambling, nonsensical, meaningless tripe that goes nowhere. All that rubbish about being made young again. Sheesh.

I'd like to believe you're not a complete moron, but there is too much evidence to the contrary in your posts.

[Edmund]

Does everyone do the bridge not using the neck. I was taught this way, have read many articles from gotch and burns on the importance of it. I do it against my mate and he is about 100kgs, Im only 55kgs. Without using your head you dont get the right arch in your back and the training helps with a good suplex (which is what my mate does if he gets me in the air.)


Does he suplex his head into the ground?



Do you think this is because it was used with rules that stated that shoulders on ground was a pin (as was already stated) or it is the best way to do it. I know BJJ guys mostly use their shoulders, but judo also uses the head and they beat helio so it must mean something.

Where did you get the idea that judo guys bridge onto their necks?
I've been doing Judo for 3 years and I've never learnt to bridge like that other than as a stretch for the spine.

[bennyvt]

I did judo when I was young and thats what I was taught. I also have video's of kosen judo, which is from the guy that beat helio by breaking his arm (check you youtube fordeo) and the old guys are bridging with their head. Theirs also that cool excerise where you go round in circles on your head which is a cool exercise to get your lateral neck muscles strong.
No he doesnt hit his head. My head is higher then his so mine hits and his is still off the ground.

[anerlich]

Benny,

a lot of BJJ schools will practice forward and back bridges on their heads for neck flexibility and strength, including the circle drill you discuss. The head is used in some techniques, but more like and extra hand or foot to control the guy or support yourself rather than a technique in itself. You might move through a headstand to pass the guard, for example.

Most BJJ guys respect Gotch. Furey is often derided because of his marketing practices, the fact that he doesn't compete or fight, and that his record is suspect.

[Edmund]

An exercise. It's not a good escape.


No he doesnt hit his head. My head is higher then his so mine hits and his is still off the ground.

You must be joking...

a 55kg guy being suplexed onto his head by a 100 kg guy who arches back but keeps his own head off the ground.

Well regardless of how unrealistic your story is, he's *not* landing on his head so it's hardly a risk to his neck is it?

Whereas you trying to lift the guy using your neck is risking yours.
And for what? Extra height?

Keep trying with your 100 kg friend though.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay. Well I shared a little. But mostly know else has ideas on how to defeat a grappler with using grappling...Very interesting. Well if you guys ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?



yoshiyahu: what's your point? you are all over the place in terms of your "ifs" and qualifications;

look, it's simple: the more skill sets you have, the more ranges you can fight in effectively, the better your chances are of doing well in both competition like MMA and in a "real" street fight; of course, MMA is not like the "real" street, but if you look around it is probably the closest thing to it; of course, you can train TCMA in an "MMA" style, meaning that when you spar you work in whatever range you come into, from striking to grappling; I mean, what's the point to arguing all this? if you want to be a good fighter, you learn as much good stuff as is available to you: you find gyms / schools where people train hard, spar as realistically as possible, work against resistance in a "live" environment; and if you like WC, that's great, train it for all its worth; and it's fine not to do BJJ (or another grappling approach) if you don't like it, but in this day and age not having some ground skills in any context puts you behind the curve: if you are a only striker and someone else is only a grappler, it could go either way, but personally, I'd rather have some idea of what the grappler might want to do in order to be able to counter it with striking, and the best way to know what he's gonna do is to train it yourself, so it's in your own body (meaning that training against what a grappler might do is ok, but it's not as effective, IMPE, as getting into his perspective yourself)

also, you are getting stuck on "style versus style"; of course, to a certain degree it's the style (I mean, I would go for MT or BJJ before Kuk Sool Won in terms of practical effectiveness, that's for sure, LOL), but then you have to take account things like physical skill, strength, size, conditioning, emotional state, environment, sequence of events, etc. - all these variables make any "real" encounter highly unpredictable - one trains a variety of skill sets in order to try to control as many of these variables as possible; heck, walking down the street on the "correct" side projecting a confident attitude takes care of a lot of that as well (not being on that street at 3 AM also does); and sometimes you just can't avoid it, sh1t happens even to the best prepared;

life is life - you can pose as man hypotheticals as you like, and you can rationalize why you might or might not want to do a [particular art, but instead of theorizing, I personally have found that most growth occurs when one goes outside of one's comfort zone and tries something that one may not necessarily like, but couldn't hurt to have...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets use the KISS principle:
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid.


Okay. Well I shared a little. But mostly know else has ideas on how to defeat a grappler with using grappling...Very interesting. Well if you guys ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?

First off, if any striker that has NO grappling experience wants to defeat a grappler, he must do what any grappler that has NO striking experience must do to defeat a striker:
Fight his fight and keep the opponent from fighting theirs.

Fact:
The only thing constant in ANY FIGHT is YOU, everything else will always be different.
So focus on what YOU do best.


How does this relate to MA and to fighting?
Simple.

There is no need for you to become a grappler to defeat a grappler.
HOWEVER, there is a HUGE NEED for you to train WITH grapplers to be able to defeat grapplers.
And if you have to ask "WHY"?, then you certainly need to train with good grapplers !!

[Edmund]

Okay. Well I shared a little. But mostly know else has ideas on how to defeat a grappler with using grappling...Very interesting. Well if you guys ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?

Lol. Your sharing stories are as dodgy as your hypothetical questions now.

As I said in the other thread before my posts disappeared, you constantly change your tune.

You asked a lot earlier on this thread about takedown defence like a total newbie. Now you state your WC friends are wrestlers who do sprawling training with you. You were basically trolling. You wanted an argument so you'd never be happy to just listen to an answer.

[Yoshiyahu]

Edmund if you ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?


And apply the same thing to Wing Chun



Lol. Your sharing stories are as dodgy as your hypothetical questions now.

As I said in the other thread before my posts disappeared, you constantly change your tune.

You asked a lot earlier on this thread about takedown defence like a total newbie. Now you state your WC friends are wrestlers who do sprawling training with you. You were basically trolling. You wanted an argument so you'd never be happy to just listen to an answer.

[Edmund]

Edmund if you ever get a chance. Ponder some ways a boxer could defeat a grappler or Muay Thai guy can defeat a grappler while using only their art?


And apply the same thing to Wing Chun

How about just like you: Kipping up and double palm strike.

Ponder that in bed while doing SLT.

[Achilles1987]

Salutations,
In my limited knowledge from GM Leung Ting's book "Wing Tsun Kuen" and from some net researches I have achieved to learn the fact that Ng Mui was actually the head master of White Crane and Snake styles of Siu Lam(Shao Lin) Monastery. The history of "the escape from temple while The Manchu Invasion" is still conserving its mystery but one thing I can see with my rookie eyes is that Wing Chun Kung Fu has many concepts and techniques directly taken from White Crane and Snake Styles.
So, Wing Chun is a close range combat system with improved effectiveness but still ground fighting is closer and if someone gets closer than your hitting range which is applied by WC practionners in fighting, remember kick and punch defence with quick pace through your opponent; that means one thing you have been WC'd!:D You have got to learn how to bridge and how to break the submissions with BJJ or any other martial arts techniques. I have friend who is training WT for 7 years and training BJJ for 1 year. When we train he sometimes use BJJ and I stare and become helpless but I have started to learn how to defend and counter attack in ground fighting with WingTsun mentality. It really works. Most of the systems promise you ground fighting but few of them teach you the most important parts. Now I feel more of a complete WC fighter. What I am trying to tell is that you don't have to wrestle to defend againist a wrestler but you have to WC him with quick and clever attacks and anti submission techniques which can be found with WC mentality.
My best regards and respect.

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuu7kk9STAk


Check the above video out...


Achilles very good response. I really enjoyed it. Yes I think Snake and Crane fighting style are pretty cool. There are certain kungs with in both systems which I feel can also improve your WC techniques

keep up the good practice.


Salutations,
In my limited knowledge from GM Leung Ting's book "Wing Tsun Kuen" and from some net researches I have achieved to learn the fact that Ng Mui was actually the head master of White Crane and Snake styles of Siu Lam(Shao Lin) Monastery. The history of "the escape from temple while The Manchu Invasion" is still conserving its mystery but one thing I can see with my rookie eyes is that Wing Chun Kung Fu has many concepts and techniques directly taken from White Crane and Snake Styles.
So, Wing Chun is a close range combat system with improved effectiveness but still ground fighting is closer and if someone gets closer than your hitting range which is applied by WC practionners in fighting, remember kick and punch defence with quick pace through your opponent; that means one thing you have been WC'd!:D You have got to learn how to bridge and how to break the submissions with BJJ or any other martial arts techniques. I have friend who is training WT for 7 years and training BJJ for 1 year. When we train he sometimes use BJJ and I stare and become helpless but I have started to learn how to defend and counter attack in ground fighting with WingTsun mentality. It really works. Most of the systems promise you ground fighting but few of them teach you the most important parts. Now I feel more of a complete WC fighter. What I am trying to tell is that you don't have to wrestle to defend againist a wrestler but you have to WC him with quick and clever attacks and anti submission techniques which can be found with WC mentality.
My best regards and respect.

[Laukarbo]

Hello,

here the opinion from a non-wing chun guy but a hung kuen practicioner and teacher... theoretically we always said,lower ur center of body weight when the wrestler shoots for ur leg or legs..push him down etc

Now I started to invite mma guys to our training,once a week or so...
I have my students wrestle them,no striking just wrestle or better yet
train how to defend against them..first few sessions most of my student were taken down,even when they lowered their stances,gotta add that my students are all more or less beginners with max 2,5 years training in hung kuen as I started teaching here 2006..however after more and more sessions the BJJ guys started to get trouble to take my students down..my student learned how to neutralize their take down attempts..

So I think here lies an answer or an optional answer,justtrain with wrestlers/grapplers

btw,the mma guys here are very open and respect other arts

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello,

here the opinion from a non-wing chun guy but a hung kuen practicioner and teacher... theoretically we always said,lower ur center of body weight when the wrestler shoots for ur leg or legs..push him down etc

Now I started to invite mma guys to our training,once a week or so...
I have my students wrestle them,no striking just wrestle or better yet
train how to defend against them..first few sessions most of my student were taken down,even when they lowered their stances,gotta add that my students are all more or less beginners with max 2,5 years training in hung kuen as I started teaching here 2006..however after more and more sessions the BJJ guys started to get trouble to take my students down..my student learned how to neutralize their take down attempts..

So I think here lies an answer or an optional answer,justtrain with wrestlers/grapplers

btw,the mma guys here are very open and respect other arts

This is the WC forum, go take your common sense somewhere else.
:D

[Vajramusti]

This is the WC forum, go take your common sense somewhere else.(Ronin)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem- activities on forums right now-
KF 15, Training 5, Shaolin 5, N PM 0. Southern 13, MMA 2, Street 2
WC-22 !
The wandering ronins have no other place to go!!

the wc forum is the current home of jabberwocky.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the WC forum, go take your common sense somewhere else.(Ronin)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem- activities on forums right now-
KF 15, Training 5, Shaolin 5, N PM 0. Southern 13, MMA 2, Street 2
WC-22 !
The wandering ronins have no other place to go!!

the wc forum is the current home of jabberwocky.

joy chaudhuri

LOL !
Well done Sir !