The role of Myth in Martial arts

[SanHeChuan]

What is the psychological importance of Myth within martial societies?

Why do we feel the need to retell the same stories over and over again even though we don't really believe them or know them to be false?

example the story of wang lang and how he created tang lang after watching incects to defeat his older kung fu brother, and how we do so with such detail.

Does having a story to tell have some advantage over the truth of saying, "Meh, I don't really know."

It's it similar to the need to fill the void of the unknown with religion?

Does having a shared history increase the closeness of our bond within a school?

The other day I told an eagle claw dude I saw wearing a chin woo style uniform a brief history of the chin woo and how our two styles had crossed there, and how that connected us. :confused:

[lkfmdc]

fascinating post, I have to think about this before I write more

[MightyB]

What is the psychological importance of Myth within martial societies?

Why do we feel the need to retell the same stories over and over again even though we don't really believe them or know them to be false?


A: Salesmanship & Ignorance

[David Jamieson]

What is the psychological importance of Myth within martial societies?

Why do we feel the need to retell the same stories over and over again even though we don't really believe them or know them to be false?

example the story of wang lang and how he created tang lang after watching incects to defeat his older kung fu brother, and how we do so with such detail.

Does having a story to tell have some advantage over the truth of saying, "Meh, I don't really know."

It's it similar to the need to fill the void of the unknown with religion?

Does having a shared history increase the closeness of our bond within a school?

The other day I told an eagle claw dude I saw wearing a chin woo style uniform a brief history of the chin woo and how our two styles had crossed there, and how that connected us. :confused:

It speaks to a few things, but:

1) identity

2) esoteric belonging

3)social belonging to something that is outside the normal realm of understanding.

There's a lot at play, but to be an esoteric practitioner, such as a martial artist sets people apart from each other in their own minds and in the minds of others.

Many people quickly like the idea of having their image inflated beyond the reality because it garners them respect they don't have to earn and often don't deserve. lol

There are a lot of people who profusely identify themselves as martial artists. It's the foundation of their entire identity in some cases and sometimes it is the area of their best achievements in life so, it is fair to do so.

But the mythology around it is to further mystify things for the uninitiated and it does quite often or at least more often than not get you the "respect" card that you would not otherwise get.

But, how many of you that are into martial arts let people know that little tidbit about you to people you have met for the first time? How many of you have friends who always blurt that point out? How many people who know someone famous drop that name whenever they can as if by osmosis they could get some of the respect the name conjures?

It's typical. Read some C.G Jung. It is probably more thoroughly explained in his stuff. Also Joseph Campbell is the king of understanding the whys, hows and wheretofores of myths and mythology. :)

[lkfmdc]

Darn you Jamieson, my post was going to be "I need to go home and re-read my Joseph Campbell and ponder this" :mad:

[xcakid]

It speaks to a few things, but:

1) identity

2) esoteric belonging

3)social belonging to something that is outside the normal realm of understanding.

There's a lot at play, but to be an esoteric practitioner, such as a martial artist sets people apart from each other in their own minds and in the minds of others.



Ya know, that exactly what I use it for while teaching.


I was going over the topic of iron palm a few weeks back. In covering the topic, I mentioned about being able to break stuff etc. etc. the usual iron palm fantasy. But then switch gears and go with what is more practical in todays world. We can no longer devote hours on end of hitting something, chi gung practice, abstaining from activities. etc. etc. So what we use the training for is mainly as a means for conditioning for hard impact. Mysticism to practicality.

It adds a bit of romance and mystery to the training. I see no harm in it as long as mysticism can be seperated for practicality.

[David Jamieson]

Campbell rocks when it comes to making those connections but when combined with Jung's knowledge of symbols, well, let's just say you could learn a lot from those two guy's body of written works.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is the psychological importance of Myth within martial societies?

Why do we feel the need to retell the same stories over and over again even though we don't really believe them or know them to be false?

example the story of wang lang and how he created tang lang after watching incects to defeat his older kung fu brother, and how we do so with such detail.

Does having a story to tell have some advantage over the truth of saying, "Meh, I don't really know."

It's it similar to the need to fill the void of the unknown with religion?

Does having a shared history increase the closeness of our bond within a school?

The other day I told an eagle claw dude I saw wearing a chin woo style uniform a brief history of the chin woo and how our two styles had crossed there, and how that connected us. :confused:

Martial arts is the business of reality, myth has no place in the MA.
Sure it's fun to tell story of some long dead uber-master, but the fact is it doesn't make you any less or any more of a MA.
The facts always outweigh the myths.

[MightyB]

There is some validity to the lineage mentality.

It really is a good gauge of someone's training- we use it everyday with "Where'd you go to school?-- I went to Harvard- or I went to the University of Michigan"- or whatever conversations that we have.

The same thing happens in Kung Fu with the "who's your teacher?" question.

Well- with a "new" style- there's no history or lineage no matter how effective it was. It was a selling point to attribute it to somebody historic.

[David Jamieson]

Martial arts is the business of reality, myth has no place in the MA.
Sure it's fun to tell story of some long dead uber-master, but the fact is it doesn't make you any less or any more of a MA.
The facts always outweigh the myths.

You speak the truth, but reality dictates differently.
It's a matter of fact that most kungfu students start learning kungfu because of childish fantasies. NO offense intended. And when it gets too real (they get hit) they leave.

This is why after 7 years of training with the same teacher, there was only 2 of us original students left from that generation and the rest had wandered off along the way. The next batch that followed had similar results as far as I can tell as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is some validity to the lineage mentality.

It really is a good gauge of someone's training- we use it everyday with "Where'd you go to school?-- I went to Harvard- or I went to the University of Michigan"- or whatever conversations that we have.

The same thing happens in Kung Fu with the "who's your teacher?" question.

Well- with a "new" style- there's no history or lineage no matter how effective it was. It was a selling point to attribute it to somebody historic.

The only time lineage is an issue s when someone makes it an issue, ie: I have the REAL *insert MA here*.
Other than that, its what you can do that counts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You speak the truth, but reality dictates differently.
It's a matter of fact that most kungfu students start learning kungfu because of childish fantasies. NO offense intended. And when it gets too real (they get hit) they leave.

This is why after 7 years of training with the same teacher, there was only 2 of us original students left from that generation and the rest had wandered off along the way. The next batch that followed had similar results as far as I can tell as well.

Too true...

[BoulderDawg]

I think most of the myth comes from old Bruce Lee Kung Fu movies and the following wire fu movies. I honestly believe there are people who sign up expecting to learn how to beat up a room full of people while turning three flips over their heads. That sounds strange but I honestly believe it.

Then you have the people who think "That's crazy but you will still be able to live to be a 100 and will be able to kick the ass of a 20 year old at 95. Not to mention have the power of Chi and be able to do things like put out candles at 20 feet.

A new trend is that I've seen people at my school sign up thinking they'll be like King fu video games they play.

[BoulderDawg]

This is why after 7 years of training with the same teacher, there was only 2 of us original students left from that generation and the rest had wandered off along the way. The next batch that followed had similar results as far as I can tell as well.

That's not unique at all. In anything that's difficult and takes years or training you are going to lose 95-99% of those that started.

[David Jamieson]

That's not unique at all. In anything that's difficult and takes years or training you are going to lose 95-99% of those that started.

I'm not saying it's unique, I'm saying that's my point.
When you see the man behind the curtain, do you leave or do you trust him to get you back to kansas? :)

[lkfmdc]

Myth is tied in with symbolism, and symbolism is essential to man, and I can tell you without any doubt, symbolism is important to fighters.

I guess we also start falling into "ritual" and there are certainly ritual where fighters are concerned.....

When my gym is "closed" and it is just the fighters (what in TCMA would be my "senior students") there is strong symbolism, ritual and also "lineage"

you can't escape these things, but it appears to be how you manage them

[MightyB]

The only time lineage is an issue s when someone makes it an issue, ie: I have the REAL *insert MA here*.
Other than that, its what you can do that counts.

I disagree- I disagree totally- Lineage is a valid barometer. I bet you agree too. Lineage happens everywhere-

In Judo- you want a federation school- USJF, USJA, IJF... etc. Then you want to know the instructor and what their experience was. The USJF links it back to the Kodokan and lets you know that it's legit training, the instructor's history let's you know what type of training your in fore.

In TCMA it's more difficult to prove because of spurious record keeping and charlatans. But it's still the same- if I'm learning Mantis- I'd like some way of knowing what I'm spending money on is worth spending money on. I'd be the same with Shaolin or Eagle Claw or you fill in the blank. I'd watch the instructor and gauge how well they move. Then I'd find out what they're history was... and then I'd want to know who their instructor was. It's the only research I can do- so YES lineage counts.

[BoulderDawg]

I personally believe linage is way over rated.

One of the greatest football coaches in history was Vince Lombardi. He had a staff of assistants just like everyone. Later on many who coached under Lombardi were given shots at head coaching jobs....very few of them had any measure of success.

[MightyB]

I personally believe linage is way over rated.

One of the greatest football coaches in history was Vince Lombardi. He had a staff of assistants just like everyone. Later on many who coached under Lombardi were given shots at head coaching jobs....very few of them had any measure of success.

I can't believe that you'd be ok learning a traditional art like wing chun or eagle claw without first trying to figure out where the instructor got it... I think it'd be silly to throw good money at a person who claimed they were whatever style that couldn't prove that they actually learned the style. Otherwise you'd get what we got now. Garage kung fu being passed off as legit.


Just my weird way of thinking.

[SanHeChuan]

Myth is tied in with symbolism, and symbolism is essential to man, and I can tell you without any doubt, symbolism is important to fighters.

So in the wang lang tale it symbolizes the week overcoming the strong, and the following of nature or the Tao.

So even though the tale is suspect at best it is useful as a teaching tool.


In teaching, using either analogy or metaphor allows the instructor to relate a potentially unfamiliar idea with that which is familiar. For many instructors the objective for doing so is to transform a foreign concept to one that may be more recognizable to the student. Interestingly, the Greek root of metaphor is “metapherein,” meaning to transfer; such as when one attempts to transfer the understanding or experience of one thing by relating it in terms of another.

http://radicalpedagogy.icaap.org/content/issue6_2/garner.html

http://www.usask.ca/gmcte/slides/ppt_ron_marken/sld001.htm

[BoulderDawg]

I can't believe that you'd be ok learning a traditional art like wing chun or eagle claw without first trying to figure out where the instructor got it... I think it'd be silly to throw good money at a person who claimed they were whatever style that couldn't prove that they actually learned the style. Otherwise you'd get what we got now. Garage kung fu being passed off as legit.


Just my weird way of thinking.

A resume doesn't mean jack to me. You could have a lineage stretching back to the Great Wall and not be able to teach worth a dam. Or you might have had all of your training in a MacSchool in a strip mall somewhere and be the best teacher there is.

[David Jamieson]

rocks are carved by water. which one is softer?

lol! there's some mystical mumbo jumbo for you, but it totally fits with tcma mysticism and the answer is true. :)

[Shaolinlueb]

who doesnt like the sotry of the younng travelers who went to go find the 7 dragon balls. i mean all martial art myths were created after dragon ball z right?

[David Jamieson]

draggin balls

[Shaolinlueb]

draggin balls

haha iu am not going to comment on that.

[MightyB]

A resume doesn't mean jack to me. You could have a lineage stretching back to the Great Wall and not be able to teach worth a dam. Or you might have had all of your training in a MacSchool in a strip mall somewhere and be the best teacher there is.

This is something I wrote on another thread with a similar topic:

I always ask- can the martial artist take himself seriously? (if they prance and act like jack@sses in funny costumes- then it's probably fake)

How does the instructor move? (if they move like a killer- precise, fast, economic, vicious- or if they move like an @ss- uncoordinated, slow, moronic, offbalance...

Is he/she willing to cross hands with the students? (self explanatory- and if they like to cross hands while drinking... really watch out! Those sifus tend to really know their stuff.

Seriously- you can tell if a person's any good just by watching a class. Do they spar, is the instructor in good shape, are people sweating, how do the class members move and drill, etc? Then you take a trial class- if they don't try to give you a package of poo dressed with a ribbon- stay... use common sense.

[Drake]

Maybe it's because of the universal truth.... Reality sucks! :D

[bawang]

lineage doesnt mean anyhting anymore,
most lineages havent fought officially for over 100 years

[SanHeChuan]

lineage doesnt mean anyhting anymore,
most lineages havent fought officially for over 100 years

Not all lineages are myth, and myth though toted as part of lineage does little to for functional pedigree.

Since the mythical part of lineage can not tell you how good your teacher is what is it good for?

[bawang]

if you want to find out how good your teacher is fight him
if he beats you then get on your knees
thats tradition

take wang yan lin for example
he learned a bunch of mix random stuff in the north, no lineage, makes up a story about being taugh by a llama, goes back south and becomes top number one tiger of guangdong

[Kansuke]

When my gym is "closed" and it is just the fighters (what in TCMA would be my "senior students") there is strong symbolism, ritual and also "lineage"



Yeah, but how do you get into the gym?

[Shaolinlueb]

Yeah, but how do you get into the gym?

use a key, unlock the door, then proceed to step through.

now figure out the symbolism in that ;)

[lkfmdc]

Yeah, but how do you get into the gym?

closed to non=fighters and outsiders :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

So...you fight out in the parking lot, or what?

[lkfmdc]

have you been drinking or something? What is so hard that you can't figure it out? HMMMMMM?

[lkfmdc]

oh, and I just now figured out who Kansuke/Unkowhateverthefuk really is, same passive aggressive BS.....

wow, really? Never would have thought that until now

[Gru Bianca]

if you want to find out how good your teacher is fight him
if he beats you then get on your knees
thats tradition

take wang yan lin for example
he learned a bunch of mix random stuff in the north, no lineage, makes up a story about being taugh by a llama, goes back south and becomes top number one tiger of guangdong

And of course you'd know for sure,........:rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

Ok I see, it's a kind of outdoor training thing like running up a mountain or something. Got it.

[Reverend Tap]

The "origin stories" told regarding kung fu styles have always been quite interesting to me. Certainly, many are just going to be cute stories made up to mystify potential students and get them to sign up, but many of the origin stories I've read about seem to function as an allegorical teaching tool, giving the teacher a more colorful, different way of introducing the core ideas and strategies of the style. For example, animal style X may not actually have been invented by a monk sitting on a rock watching the animal in question fighting, but by getting the student thinking about just what inspiration could be drawn from animal X, some of the ideas and emphases that are actually central to the style can be more firmly embedded in the student's mind. Just a thought; I don't actually have anything to substantiate that idea.

It also seems to me to often draw upon traces of shamanistic and animistic traditions still present in modern cultures; the association with mythic figures, powerful beasts and whatnot allowing the practitioner to identify with and "draw in" the perceived powers and abilities of these entities and phenomena. It's an interesting cultural practice that's certainly not restricted to commonly-mystified activities like TCMA (I don't think there's anywhere it's more present today than in professional sports), and one I'm hoping to get the chance to do a significant amount of research on at some point.

All in all, I'd say a potentially valuable teaching tool, when used honestly. Examining the stories and associations in this way takes a lot more mental energy and critical thought than simply accepting them at face value, though, so I could certainly see them being counterproductive in many settings. A lot like the Bible and other sacred texts in that regard, really.

[BoulderDawg]

The one myth that always got me (People at my school swear they have seen people do it) is putting out a candle using your chi! :D

If I ever see anyone put out a candle from 5+ feet by just pushing their palm at it I swear I'll eat that candle.

[bawang]

And of course you'd know for sure,........:rolleyes:

are you in canada ontario area?
i am jim or sun dezi my cell phone contact is 1 519 7 6 0 3 0 0 9
are you someone i met when i was in toronto? i ran out of money and i was starving, i couldnt even tlak, maybe it seem like i was a weirdo with no skills, i am much stronger now, if i gave u wrong impression we can meet again, i was 110 pound some times not eat for 3 days, now i am back to normal 150 pounds
same goes for anyone else i might have met in toronto just give me a call we can hang out and train or fight

sorry if i give impresion i am internets nerds, i post here a lot this week becuse i am injure my hands

[Gru Bianca]

are you in canada ontario area?
i am jim or sun dezi my cell phone contact is 1 519 7 6 0 3 0 0 9
are you someone i met when i was in toronto? i ran out of money and i was starving, i couldnt even tlak, maybe it seem like i was a weirdo with no skills, i am much stronger now, if i gave u wrong impression we can meet again, i was 110 pound some times not eat for 3 days, now i am back to normal 150 pounds
same goes for anyone else i might have met in toronto just give me a call we can hang out and train or fight

sorry if i give impresion i am internets nerds, i post here a lot this week becuse i am injure my hands

Sorry to disappoint you but I do not live in Canada. I’d like to visit tough if I’ll ever get the chance to.
I live in Singapore and if you’ll ever visit China perhaps you could take a detour and come to pay a visit, you’d be most welcome or I could come and visit you in China since I’m monthly in and out of the place. :)

You did not give me the impression of being nerd, just not always well informed that's all :D

别激动没什么事儿。。。。

[sanjuro_ronin]

I disagree- I disagree totally- Lineage is a valid barometer. I bet you agree too. Lineage happens everywhere-

In Judo- you want a federation school- USJF, USJA, IJF... etc. Then you want to know the instructor and what their experience was. The USJF links it back to the Kodokan and lets you know that it's legit training, the instructor's history let's you know what type of training your in fore.

In TCMA it's more difficult to prove because of spurious record keeping and charlatans. But it's still the same- if I'm learning Mantis- I'd like some way of knowing what I'm spending money on is worth spending money on. I'd be the same with Shaolin or Eagle Claw or you fill in the blank. I'd watch the instructor and gauge how well they move. Then I'd find out what they're history was... and then I'd want to know who their instructor was. It's the only research I can do- so YES lineage counts.

It has its place, yes, not denying that.

[David Jamieson]

lineage has a role.

but, there are inherent problems.

It's like a real degree from a prestigious university versus a fake degree you got off the internet as the grossest example.

a real lineage with real time put in and real demonstrable skills gained from being in that lineage are all factors of whether or not what you got is any good.

I personally would rather study with all those aspects in place over any single one of them, but ultimately, it's the teacher and his ability to transmit clearly.

[MightyB]

believe me in that I understand why people want to disregard lineage-

I see "instructors" who use lineage as a shield. I've seen the crap that comes out of that mentality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

believe me in that I understand why people want to disregard lineage-

I see "instructors" who use lineage as a shield. I've seen the crap that comes out of that mentality.

The examples you gave of Judo aren't so much about lineage as they are about "standards".
Organizations tend to set minimal standards so you get a better "quality control".
Lineages, not so much.
Simply because one student may have been taguht different than another by the same teacher in the same lineage.
Not a bad thing per say, just not a good "quality control system:.

[MightyB]

The examples you gave of Judo aren't so much about lineage as they are about "standards".
Organizations tend to set minimal standards so you get a better "quality control".
Lineages, not so much.
Simply because one student may have been taguht different than another by the same teacher in the same lineage.
Not a bad thing per say, just not a good "quality control system:.


Theoretically, that's what lineage is supposed to do- I should know roughly the same things as someone who comes from the same lineage- I may do them differently- but they'd be roughly the same. Same theories- same core moves- etc. And- for the most part- I find this to be true. Legit Mantis guys know the same stuff. We just argue about who's stuff is more "correct" (silly- I know), but we know the same stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Theoretically, that's what lineage is supposed to do- I should know roughly the same things as someone who comes from the same lineage- I may do them differently- but they'd be roughly the same. Same theories- same core moves- etc. And- for the most part- I find this to be true. Legit Mantis guys know the same stuff. We just argue about who's stuff is more "correct" (silly- I know), but we know the same stuff.

Look at the issues within the Yip Man Lineage of WC.
One can argue that, with a standardized curriculm done by a governing body created by he Linegae founder", as was your example of the Kodokan, there would be less "issues".
Though I doubt it.

[SanHeChuan]

The Power of Myth in Chinese Martial Arts

In Praying Mantis Kung fu there is a Myth surrounding the creation of the art at the hands of Wang Lang. This is one such version of the story.

In a bid to test his martial skill, Wang Lang ventured to the Temple in the Lao Shan mountains to challenge the monks. When he arrived at the Temple he came across several Taoist monks in the main plaza practising their boxing skills. Wang Lang issued his first challenge to one of the monks but received no response. When Wang continued his challenge, the monk agreed to let him fight a lower level student. Wang fought hard against the student but was defeated.

He returned home with his tail between his legs and knew that he'd have to train a lot harder to match the might and skill of the monks.Two years later Wang returned to the Temple to once again test his skills. He was in far better physical shape than he had been during his previous trip and was once again matched against a student of the Temple. This time Wang won the bout and fought his way through the ranks of the Temple until he eventually stood toe-to-toe with the head abbot.

Wang fought at the height of his skill but was soundly beaten by the abbot. In pain from his fight with the abbot, Wang rested against a tree by the Lao Shan mountains. It was here that he spotted two insects fighting - a cicada and a much smaller praying mantis. He observed carefully as the mantis used its long arms and quick movements to defeat its much larger opponent.

In awe of the mantis, Wang took the insect home and built a cage for it. He studied the insect's every movement and used a pair of chopsticks to battle with the mantis to see how it would react to various strikes and thrusts. Wang took these techniques and incorporated them into his own training. With these new techniques he once again ventured to the Temple to test his newfound skills. He fought the head abbot again and was successful, stunning the monks with his newfound skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSElxBY4hgs

While these stories are not a literal account of actual events, yet they may express ideas that are more symbolic. The way a thing was created establishes that thing's nature, the pattern to which it should conform.

First there is Wang Lang Perseverance and dedication to gain a high level of skill. His victories did not come easy, and he knew defeat many times before he could prevail. We too should strive to emulate his fortitude, practicing hard and long, challenging ourselves, and growing in defeat.

Second these stories often describe the battle between the insects in such a way as to describe key principle of the style. Here the story only says that you should use skill to overcome strength.

Lastly, in Wang Langs quest he finds his answers in Nature. In doing so he is following the Tao, which seeks to emulate the harmony found in nature. We too sould seek understanding through the Tao as many of the pricipals of mantis are rooted in the Tao, such as overcome hard with soft, and much much more.

"We have not even to face the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time, have gone before us: the labyrinth is thoroughly known; we have only to follow the thread of the hero path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god, and where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves. Where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence, and where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the World." - Joseph Campbell

[MightyB]

Sometimes I think the story was made after the fact. I think that "Mantis" was around before it got it's name. Somebody fought using those techniques- did well- and was asked to show them. I think that since a couple of the postures resemble the way a mantis holds its "hands"- somebody nicknamed the style mantis- it stuck- then we got the story. Kind of like star formation names - "big dipper" "orion" "taurus"-- every one of those astronomical formations has a story- the name came first- the story came later- all based on something kind'a looking like something.

Just my opinion.

[bawang]

i think myths inspire people and have a air of wonder to thems
the real story? looking at the tang lang gou if wang lang was real, he probably got his wrist permanentaly destroyed in a qin na move, but adapt the cripple wrist to make a hook
but that would be boring story

[MightyB]

i think myths inspire people and have a air of wonder to thems
the real story? looking at the tang lang gou if wang lang was real, he probably got his wrist permanentaly destroyed in a qin na move, but adapt the cripple wrist to make a hook
but that would be boring story

Nah- I don't think that's the case since the diu sau is common among different martial arts styles even outside of TCMA. A big eye opener for me was when I first started Judo and learned that the first defensive move in their first form was a diu sau to the inside of a chop to set up a shoulder throw.

[bawang]

the way i see people do tang lang hook, the way thumb is pressed into the finger, looks exactly like a someone with crippled wrist, it might be possible maybe yes maybe not

[SanHeChuan]

Luo Guang Yu

6th gen 7 star and chin woo "super lord"

was partially crippled in one leg and did not favor low stances.