Bodhidharma's Influence and what Shaolin means to TCMA

[MightyB]

What role did Bodhidharma and Shaolin really have in the evolution of TCMA?

China existed for some 5000 years prior to Tamo's legendary visit. Chinese Martial Arts predate Tamo by thousands of years. So what was his influence?

My guess and opinion was that the temples were always a center for cultural exchange. Martial arts were being shared. I believe that Tamo introduced Yogic postures, the idea of Chi refinement and development, and the transmission of forms as the dominant training methodology.

[David Jamieson]

Ta Mo transmitted Ch'an to Hui ke. In so doing, he founded the zen school of buddhism and this was his number 1 contribution to shaolin as this practice is one of shaolin's 3 treasures.

zen serves the martial artist as well because practice of it allows for a quick change of state of mind and an avoidance of the adrenaline dump in a confrontational scenario.

he also brought in the idea that exercise is intrinsic to whole body and whole being training. any exercise. the idea that too much of any one thing does no good was made concrete with ta mo's introductions to life in the temple.

there are a lot of legends and such, but there are also the very practical aspects of what he brought to bear.

:)

[Baqualin]

Ta Mo transmitted Ch'an to Hui ke. In so doing, he founded the zen school of buddhism and this was his number 1 contribution to shaolin as this practice is one of shaolin's 3 treasures.

zen serves the martial artist as well because practice of it allows for a quick change of state of mind and an avoidance of the adrenaline dump in a confrontational scenario.

he also brought in the idea that exercise is intrinsic to whole body and whole being training. any exercise. the idea that too much of any one thing does no good was made concrete with ta mo's introductions to life in the temple.

there are a lot of legends and such, but there are also the very practical aspects of what he brought to bear.

:)

Hey David,
There's a lot of people out here today who doubt that Ta Mo even existed...interested in your take regarding this.
BQ

[David Jamieson]

Hey David,
There's a lot of people out here today who doubt that Ta Mo even existed...interested in your take regarding this.
BQ

It doesn't matter if he existed or didn't exist at this point. What remains, still remains!

Same as it doesn't matter if Jesus existed or not, which there are also a lot of people who think that. :) But nevertheless, you have a billion+ christians on teh planet.

The matter of his existence is completely aside from what is extant and attributed to him now. In both cases and more. :)

Hui ke DID exist and is documented. So if he was the actual founder of zen and ta mo was not, then so be it.

George Washington wouldn't be the first president of the USA if not for a general named Lafayette from France. But you don't hear too much about him outside of military circles really. Most americans have no idea about the role of the French in winning them their country and their independence from the British. George never cut down a cherry tree either and Christopher Columbus did not discover America.

there's a lot of wrong perceptions out there. But they don't take away from the truth, if anything, they serve as a launch point for discovering deeper truths about a subject if the person has the curiousity and open mind to look and to not be lazy in their thinking.

[Baqualin]

It doesn't matter if he existed or didn't exist at this point. What remains, still remains!

Same as it doesn't matter if Jesus existed or not, which there are also a lot of people who think that. :) But nevertheless, you have a billion+ christians on teh planet.

The matter of his existence is completely aside from what is extant and attributed to him now. In both cases and more. :)

Hui ke DID exist and is documented. So if he was the actual founder of zen and ta mo was not, then so be it.

George Washington wouldn't be the first president of the USA if not for a general named Lafayette from France. But you don't hear too much about him outside of military circles really. Most americans have no idea about the role of the French in winning them their country and their independence from the British. George never cut down a cherry tree either and Christopher Columbus did not discover America.

there's a lot of wrong perceptions out there. But they don't take away from the truth, if anything, they serve as a launch point for discovering deeper truths about a subject if the person has the curiousity and open mind to look and to not be lazy in their thinking.

The philosophy over riding what may or may not be the actual facts?

[David Jamieson]

The philosophy over riding what may or may not be the actual facts?

philosophies in general are built from the experiences of many and for some odd reason, they are attributed to singular persons. So, in a sense, yes. With other aspects, not so much.

Ta mo was a buddhist afterall and was part of the initial foray of mahayana buddhism into china which in and of itself is an interesting history.

Buddhism itself preceded ta mo by about 400 years though, or so it is thought, but he is one of the prevalent figures in Chinese buddhism because of the Ch'an.

[SanHeChuan]

A personal opionin that I'm just going to throw out there about the roll of shaolin.

I think shaolin served as a hiding place for alot of ousted military officers of considerable kung fu skill. Regime changes happened, and generals and other loyal officials faces likely execution. Shaolin would be the perfect place to shed your old identity, take up a Buddhist name and disappear. And it was these men who really contributed to the wealth of kung fu at Shaoiln.

Maybe ;)

[David Jamieson]

A personal opionin that I'm just going to throw out there about the roll of shaolin.

I think shaolin served as a hiding place for alot of ousted military officers of considerable kung fu skill. Regime changes happened, and generals and other loyal officials faces likely execution. Shaolin would be the perfect place to shed your old identity, take up a Buddhist name and disappear. And it was these men who really contributed to the wealth of kung fu at Shaoiln.

Maybe ;)

too shaw brothers. :p not likely although there is a case or two of harboring that occurred in buddhist temples.

[shaolinboxer]

I think it's more likely that Da Mo was attributed as the founding father to increase the prestige of shaolin. This is pretty typical...institutions pick a saint as a sacred, but not literal, founder. Then time marches on and the legend becomes as important as fact, sometimes replacing the facts themselves.

[bawang]

i think this poem describes acurately what shaolin was like
欺佛祖 insulting budha
喝观音 mocking goddess guan yin
戒刀禅杖冷森森 carrying vow sword and chan staff, sends menacing cold chill feeling
不看经卷花和尚 doesnt read scriiptures ,monk with tatoo all over his body
酒肉沙门鲁智深 meat eating wine drinking disciple luzhishen

this poem describe fictional character luzhishen from wutai mountain who was inspired by martial monks from wutai mountain, second most famous after shaolin

[David Jamieson]

I think it's more likely that Da Mo was attributed as the founding father to increase the prestige of shaolin. This is pretty typical...institutions pick a saint as a sacred, but not literal, founder. Then time marches on and the legend becomes as important as fact, sometimes replacing the facts themselves.

Shaolin was already founded and established as a buddhist monastery before TaMo showed up. Story goes that he was denied entrance for 9 years.

[SimonM]

Ta Mo transmitted Ch'an to Hui ke. In so doing, he founded the zen school of buddhism and this was his number 1 contribution to shaolin as this practice is one of shaolin's 3 treasures.

zen serves the martial artist as well because practice of it allows for a quick change of state of mind and an avoidance of the adrenaline dump in a confrontational scenario.

he also brought in the idea that exercise is intrinsic to whole body and whole being training. any exercise. the idea that too much of any one thing does no good was made concrete with ta mo's introductions to life in the temple.

there are a lot of legends and such, but there are also the very practical aspects of what he brought to bear.

:)

I was going to post. But you just RNC'd the correct.

[SimonM]

i think this poem describes acurately what shaolin was like
欺佛祖 insulting budha
喝观音 mocking goddess guan yin
戒刀禅杖冷森森 carrying vow sword and chan staff, sends menacing cold chill feeling
不看经卷花和尚 doesnt read scriiptures ,monk with tatoo all over his body
酒肉沙门鲁智深 meat eating wine drinking disciple luzhishen

this poem describe fictional character luzhishen from wutai mountain who was inspired by martial monks from wutai mountain, second most famous after shaolin

Luzhishen is also the single most awesome fictional character from Chinese stories. :D

[golden arhat]

i think this poem describes acurately what shaolin was like
欺佛祖 insulting budha
喝观音 mocking goddess guan yin
戒刀禅杖冷森森 carrying vow sword and chan staff, sends menacing cold chill feeling
不看经卷花和尚 doesnt read scriiptures ,monk with tatoo all over his body
酒肉沙门鲁智深 meat eating wine drinking disciple luzhishen

this poem describe fictional character luzhishen from wutai mountain who was inspired by martial monks from wutai mountain, second most famous after shaolin

can you clairfy i dont understand

[tattooedmonk]

Luzhishen is also the single most awesome fictional character from Chinese stories. :DThanks!!!!!:p:D:cool:

[LFJ]

Shaolin was already founded and established as a buddhist monastery before TaMo showed up. Story goes that he was denied entrance for 9 years.

who tells that story?

[David Jamieson]

who tells that story?

...the story that Ta Mo was denied entrance and subsequently sat in a cave for 9 years until he was admitted is one of the most common legends about him.

There's a cave in fact not far from the monastery that is said to be the cave where ta mo sat and meditated.

there's other freaky myths associated with this as well, such as the cutting of the eyelids and the tea bushes that spring forth from them and so on.

Because Ta Mo was also attributed with tea drinking in the monastery in order to maintain mental awareness.

[SimonM]

can you clairfy i dont understand

Luzhishen broke basically every standard rule of the sangha during his tenure at Wutaishan. He fought, he ate meat, he got drunk and broke stuff, etc.

By the end of his life he achieved enlightenment by dint his life experiences.

This contains much that helps to understand ch'an and much that helps to understand Shaolin. LOL

It was very clear... provided you know who Luzhishen is. :D

[GeneChing]

Check our archives: Bodhidharma(damo) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38368)

You should also examine Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521) by Dr. Meir Shahar

[SimonM]

Read it way back.

My point about Shaolin was mainly about non-verbal communication of Dharma, not the wine drinking. ;)

I was just not stealing the hint of koan-ness from Bawang's excellent post.

[MightyB]

Check our archives: Bodhidharma(damo) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38368)

You should also examine Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521) by Dr. Meir Shahar

I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

[David Jamieson]

I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

Chinese martial arts were around before Ta Mo without question, but for the most part, what they looked like or if they were documented in any formal way at all ...well, your guess is as good as mine.

It is known that during the Tang dynasty, approximately 600CE to 900CE, that martial arts were practiced at Shaolin. It's unknown as to what exactly those arts were.

Military arts of the same period deal mainly with the standard warfare such as mounted, dismounted, short, long, ranged weapons siege works and so on.

According to Meir Shahars' book regarding the monastery and it's martial arts, there was a staff manual from the temple dated in the first quarter of the 16th century and touted as an excellent treatise on the use of the staff as a weapon.

I believe it is this manual from which a lot of praise was heaped upon the Shaolin fighting abilities due to the manual being used by generals to train their own forces in the use of quarter staffs on the battle field and the finding that the shaolin techniques were more than effective. Namely double headed techniques.

[bawang]

I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

evolution of kung fu has nothing to do with damo
no one is sure exactly what damo introduced other than chan buddhism
but the physical conditioning exciercises of shaolin includes excercises from indian yoga, both soft "prana" or qi excercises and hard physical excercises

before song dynasty chinese army did jiaoli (headbutt) . two soldier in armor circle each other, then headbutt each other with their pointy helmets
if none of them is knocked out they end up in a wrestling clinch and wrestle

in song dynasty it turned into xiang pu (meaning literally clinch). two people circle each other, jump toward each other into a clinch and wrestle. headbutt was removed.

in late song dynasty population of china balloon + military career turn from elite mercenary wariror class into the lowest class on bottom of society, conscription becomes popular. punching kicking and form drilling makes below average cannon fodder soldiers, but because can train in mass numbers became more efficient and cost effective plus formation fighting needs very little skills
what is known is that the short spears used by shaolin and many other martial art schools are in fact flower spears and cannot be used for actual combat

taken from chinese magazine Martial Soul "wu huen*

[LFJ]

...the story that Ta Mo was denied entrance and subsequently sat in a cave for 9 years until he was admitted is one of the most common legends about him.

There's a cave in fact not far from the monastery that is said to be the cave where ta mo sat and meditated.

i'm familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.

so i ask again, who tells that story?

[David Jamieson]

i'm familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.

so i ask again, who tells that story?

You really want to know! :)

Seriously though, it is told in a few places. If you went to shaolin and visited the cave, they would tell you there as well. Also, I believe i saw it one the discovery channel, so whoever wrote that show tells it that way as well.

You seem kind of angry about it?

[ghostexorcist]

can you clairfy i dont understand

Its a poem about the "Flowery Monk" from the Water Margin


I guess what I'm asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?

Bodhidharma had absolutely nothing to do with Chinese martial arts. The Sinew-Changing Classic was erroneously attributed to him in 1624 when it was actually written by a Taoist. However, the idea of him teaching actual martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publishing of the popular political novel The Travels of Lao T’san.

[LFJ]

You really want to know! :)

Seriously though, it is told in a few places. If you went to shaolin and visited the cave, they would tell you there as well. Also, I believe i saw it one the discovery channel, so whoever wrote that show tells it that way as well.

You seem kind of angry about it?

no, it just sounds bizarre.

it kind of defeats the purpose of his 9 year sit. it wouldnt have had the same profound effect. it also wouldnt make sense for them to prepare a special room for him and be so hospitable later on. he was a famous master, welcomed over by the emperor even. so i dont see how it would make sense that monks of any temple would deny him entrance. any reason given?

i had just never heard the story being told that way. not by any monk of shaolin nor any master of a chan/zen/seon buddhist tradition.

i've heard discovery and other documentary shows make some pretty oddball statements before, mixing up facts and details, so.

[David Jamieson]

no, it just sounds bizarre.

it kind of defeats the purpose of his 9 year sit. it wouldnt have had the same profound effect. it also wouldnt make sense for them to prepare a special room for him and be so hospitable later on. he was a famous master, welcomed over by the emperor even. so i dont see how it would make sense that monks of any temple would deny him entrance. any reason given?

i had just never heard the story being told that way. not by any monk of shaolin nor any master of a chan/zen/seon buddhist tradition.

i've heard discovery and other documentary shows make some pretty oddball statements before, mixing up facts and details, so.

That's cool. I don't think it is counter productive to have that story. I think the story also goes that the emperor who invited him over didn't care much for him either because he basically gave him the old camel through the eye of the needle parable. :p

I think if anything, the story of the rejection, then the sitting, then the eventual acceptance speaks directly about perseverance, diligence and commitment to the way.

[SimonM]

David makes a good point about the symbolism of the rejection story (one of several variants I have heard).

I'd like to add that the later honoring of Bodidharma would fit the structure as the monks came to realize that greatness was sitting outside their door eating bitter while they acted inhospitably to a member of the sangha.

LFJ also makes a strong point: Discovery Channel doesn't vet their "discoveries" very well. They put a lot of nonsense up there... like an hour long program about how space aliens from atlantis built the sphynx.

[LFJ]

really, i see absolutely no reason why the shaolinsi sangha at that time would deny bodhidharma entrance. after all, they already had an indian monk as their abbot and another famous one was coming from buddhism's motherland. of course they would want to hear what he has to say- little did they know.

the way i learned it was that he was hitting the misunderstanding the people studying buddhism in china already had.

at that time buddhist practice was more concerned with ritual and magic, or as the emperor understood "attaining merit", finding something "holy". they all studied nikaya buddhism, focusing on accumulation of knowledge through scripture.

so they all wanted to hear what the famous master from the west had to say about truth. what was his great teaching? thats what even the emperor wanted to know when he welcomed him over.

bodhidharma hit that misunderstanding, first in his exchange with the emperor. (saying only four phrases in reply to each of the emperor's questions: no merit, nothing holy, vast emptiness, dont know- bunch of negation of generally accepted buddhist concepts in china at that time. radical hitting!)

then at shaolin monastery, the monks would surely be eager to welcome another great indian monk. they likely expected more of what buddhabhadra was already teaching them. and they thought more accumulation of knowledge was the key.

again he hit that misunderstanding. without speaking a word he just went to the cave and sat... and sat.. longer than any of the monastics at that time could manage, or imagine.

thus the beginning of chan transmission in china, and the shaolinsi sangha's "conversion" to the mahayana.

[David Jamieson]

well, still to this day it is all legend and tales.

There is an excellent treatise on Buddhism in China though by Kenneth Chen.
http://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-China-Kenneth-Kuan-Sheng/dp/0691000158/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236890013&sr=1-1

These kinds of scholarly works are much more valuable in understanding the history along with the oral histories as handed down in martial arts schools or among sectarian schools of buddhism in my opinion.

If you sort through it, you can find answers...sort of. :p

[SimonM]

In the end it's largely moot. Most of the history of Bodidharma's entry into Shaolinsi is oral, not written, as such it is most certainly subject to distortion. I've heard several different stories from several different sources all of which tell a slightly different tale.

What remains unchanging is:

Bodidharma brought Ch'an teachings to China by way of Shaolinsi.
He meditated in a cave for 9 years.
He (most likely) had a big, bushy beard.
He (at the very least) brought a set of exercises to Shaolinsi.. though one memorable story I recall was that after his 9 year medtation his legs withered away to nothing. I doubt this is true.

[r.(shaolin)]

really, i see absolutely no reason why the shaolinsi sangha at that time would deny bodhidharma entrance. after all, they already had an indian monk as their abbot and another famous one was coming from buddhism's motherland. of course they would want to hear what he has to say- little did they know.


During the Northern Wei, there were only a few great state monasteries like Shaolin among the thousands of other temples and monasteries. The monks who resided in these official establishments were selected and ordained by Imperial decree and required higher qualifications. Their supervisory clergy was appointed by the Imperial throne and accountable to it. Discipline and rules in the official monasteries tended to be strict. As a rule, a wondering monk would not have been accepted as permanent resident. Visiting wondering monks were allowed to stay in the guest rooms but only for a short time after being first interviewed by the Guest Perfect or one of his assistants. These interviews were done to determine where the visitor was in fact an ordained monk or a layman. Chan probably started out with the wondering yogi types – some monks, some not. Furthermore, as pointed out by Buddhist historian, Dr. A.W.Barber, during the "early history of Chan in China . . .many of the Buddhist masters had affiliations with monasteries but often were not members and it was not uncommon for them to stay in nearby huts, coves or caves and not in the monastic compounds.


ghostexorcist wrote: However, the idea of him teaching actual martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publishing of the popular political novel The Travels of Lao T’san.

This is not true. There are still a few old masters still around who began their studies in the early 1900's and who's teachers studied Shaolin martial arts during the 1800's. They passed on a very similar version of this legend. At the very least this legend predates the 1800's/1700's and most likely earlier.

r.

[ghostexorcist]

This is not true. There are still a few old masters still around who began their in the early 1900's and who's teachers studied Shaolin martial arts during the 1800's. They passed on a very similar version of this legend. At the very least this legend predates the 1800's/1700's and most likely earlier.

r.

It is true. You are thinking about the Yi Jin Jing (1624), which attributes the qigong exercise to Bodhidharma. The first of two prefaces states after Damo's death, the monks of Shaolin discovered two qigong manuals written by the Buddhist saint. One manual was lost and the other was supposedly not translated into Chinese from Sanskrit until much later. However, the idea of him teaching specific martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publication of the previously mentioned political novel.

[r.(shaolin)]

Although in our tradition includes, Yi Jin Jing (易筋经) no specific mention is made of Bodhidharma concerning it. The legends of three other sets however do mention Bodhidharma. Although they do not say that he had any hand in developing these, they commemorate him and in that sense connect him to martial arts at Shaolin. These legends were found in documents from our lineage that have been around from the mid 1800's but probably earlier.

LUOHAN* MA DENG CAO 羅漢馬鐙操 (The Arhat Who Practices How to Mount a Horse)
"When Bodhidharma (Da Mo ) came to Shaolin Si on Songshan Mountain, he noticed that many monks looked emaciated, and had swollen bellies and faces. The first Patriarch taught the monks of Shaolin Si exercises to strengthen their bodies. The younger monks, in particular, followed Bodhidharma’s instructions in training Qi. Within six months, those who practiced became much stronger and more energetic. When Bodhidharma was asked to teach more, he replied, “Practice twice what I have taught you each day”. As a result of this reply, a tradition was began at Shaolin to do exercises at the opening of the door of the training hall (禪堂-Chan Tang) when the chief instructor (開堂-Kai Tang - literally "The One that Opens the Class") enters before classes began. This is called Luohan Kai Men (羅漢開門), which means, Luohan Opens the Door."
Note: *Luohan in this case refers to Bodhidharma

CAO FANG HUA 草訪花* (Grass Visits Flower)
"When Bodhidharma first arrived at Shaolin Monastery the Guest Prefect asked him how he had come. Bodhidharma told him by floating on a blade of grass across the Yangtse River. The old Guest Prefect was suspicious, and so in the presence of other monks asked him with what method he had done this and wished a demonstration. Bodhidharma explained, “I am as grass floating. My visit to you is like grass visiting a flower. ”Grass is symbolic of Buddhism and the flower symbolic of China. The word flower also means an illusion in Buddhism and therefore the statement refers to the enlightenment of China by Buddhism. In order to come to China from India, Bodhidharma had to make the hazardous journey by sea like clouds and water. The trip took three years and the divine beings protected Bodhidharma on his journey. Bodhidharma was a scholarly prince of the priestly caste and trained in the martial arts. Bodhidharma founded a branch of Buddhism that focused on seated meditation at Shaolin Si and is regarded as the first patriarch."
* In speaking to one student from the Wugulin, Zhang Qinghe's lineage did at one time have a set with this name as well.

LUO JIAO SONG SHAN 落腳嵩山 (Settling at Songshan Mountain)
"When Bodhidharma first arrived from India in the southern capital, he met with Emperor Wu of Liang. The Emperor was an enthusiastic supporter of Buddhism and asked Bodhidharma whether he would like to live in China. After this meeting Bodhidharma journeyed to the capital of the Northern Wei, Luoyang. From there he went to Shaolin Monastery in the Songshan Mountains. At Shaolin Bodhidharma was asked who he was and his reason for coming there. His reply was, "I am grass that has come to visit the flower." The old Guest Prefect asked, “Where are you going?” "I plan to stay here, in the Songshan Mountains" was Bodhidharma's answer."

r.

[ghostexorcist]

Although in our tradition includes, Yi Jin Jing (易筋经) no specific mention is made of Bodhidharma concerning it. The legends of three other sets however do mention Bodhidharma. Although they do not say that he had any hand in developing these, they commemorate him and in that sense connect him to martial arts at Shaolin. These legends were found in documents from our lineage that have been around from the mid 1800's but probably earlier.

[...]

r.

I have heard of the emperor's audience and the river-crossing episode before. But have the documents concerning his teaching of boxing to the monks truly been dated to the mid 1800's? I've found that martial lineages tend to claim to have documents that prove a legendary figure has connections to their art (I'm not accusing you of treachery, I'm just generalizing). For instance, practitioners of Eagle Claw fervently claim the Song Dynasty General Yue Fei was the founder of their art and that he had learned martial arts from a monk named Zhou Tong at the Shaolin monastery. However, Yue's family and state biographies only refer to Zhou Tong teaching the boy archery at his village and Eagle Claw is not mentioned at all. What a lot of people don't realize is that Yue was not connected to martial arts until the publishing of the Yi Jin Jing. The second preface of the book says Yue gained his legendary strength from learning the exercise from an unnamed Shaolin monk with magic powers. Martial historian Stan Henning (the source of the 1907 material) says the very first style linking itself to Yue is Xingyi and this came about with the publishing of a manual attributed to Dai Longbang in 1750. The manual states Yue learned spearplay from an unnamed master. Yue historically learned spearplay from Chen Guang, but I think this "unnamed master" plays off of the unnamed Shaolin monk from the Yi Jin Jing. Going back to Eagle Claw, I think Zhou's portrayal as a Shaolin monk also points to the unnamed Shaolin master.

I have also read that some internalists claim Zhou took Yue Fei to meet his friend who was a buddhist hermit. This hermit taught Yue "Emei Dapeng Qigong," which was named after a magic, demon-quelling bird that sat at the head of Buddha's throne. This is obviously a reference to Yue's 17th-18th century folklore biography The Story of Yue Fei. In the novel, the celestial bird Garuda (who sits at the head of Buddha's throne) is exiled from paradise for killing a celestial bat for (no joke) gassing during Shakyamuni's sermon. Garuda is reborn as Yue Fei. Years later, Zhou Tong takes Yue to meet his friend who is the abbot of a small Buddhist temple.

I don't know if you have read it or not, but Meir Shahar's The Shaolin Monastery (2008) discusses Bodhidharma's legendary connections to martial arts in detail. Another books is Brian Kennedy's Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey. What surprises me is that some people on this thread are honestly still claiming Damo taught "exercises" to the monks when this was discredited as far back as the 1920's by Tang Hao. Shahar shows the monks historically worshiped King Jinnaluo (Vajrapani) as the progenitor of their arts.

I used to believe all of the martial legends floating around, but I've found the truth is otherwise with the help of scholarly publications and historical records.

[LFJ]

Shahar shows the monks historically worshiped King Jinnaluo (Vajrapani) as the progenitor of their arts.

vajrapani bodhisattva in chinese is "jīngāngshǒu púsà" (金刚手菩萨).

jǐnnàluówáng (紧那罗王) in sanskrit is king "kimnara".

dr. meir shahar writes in this article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521) how the two have been confused.

[Sal Canzonieri]

CAO FANG HUA is a set of line exercises, correct?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Buddhidharma (Damo) did not Create Shaolin Martial Arts according to the late Shi De Qian:

Concerning this famous legend about Shaolin, according to the Shaolinsi Wushu Baike Quanshu, written by the late Shi De Qian, “After the [Manchu] Qing took over, there was fear among the government that the Han Chinese would try to revive the Ming and overthrow the Qing; on many occasions the government prohibited Buddhists, Taoists and common people from practicing martial arts. A few patriots who had the aim of restoring the Ming, yet did not dare to openly practice martial arts, in order to further their goal took advantage of the Qing government's faith in Buddhism and created the myth that Bodhidharma had created Shaolin boxing in order to deceive the government. They spread this story among the people in order to achieve the goal of being able to practice wushu and restore the Ming. Works such as Li Jing's preface to the Yijin Jing, "Shaolin Quanshu Mijue" (1915), Shaolin Quanfa Tushuo (1921), Secret of Tang Xianzu's Bodhidharma Style Boxing (Tang Xianzu Damo Pai Quan Jue, 1926), etc., all contributed to the propagation of this false belief that Bodhidharma had created Shaolin boxing; particularly the book Shaolin Quanfa Jingyi (1918), in which the author took Damo (Bodhidharma) as his name.”
Furthermore, according to the Shaolinsi Wushu Baike Quanshu, “In recent years some monks and lay boxing teachers are unclear as to the origins of Shaolin martial arts and they pass on hearsay which states that Shaolin martial arts were created by Bodhidharma. Therefore they have added "Bodhidharma" to the names of certain routines, such as Bodhidharma Sword (Damo jian), Bodhidharma Staff (Damo gun), Bodhidharma cane (Damo zhang), etc. Actually, this is all unfounded and erroneous speech. Particularly, in the Republican era, books such as True Meaning of Shaolin Boxing (Shaolin Quanfa Jingyi), Secrets of the Martial Arts of Shaolin (Shaolin Quanshu Mijue), Illustrated Explanation of Shaolin Boxing (Shaolin Quanfa Tushuo), and the like have propagated this theory, spreading it abroad and contributing to misunderstandings. This kind of talk is very unadvantageous to those of us who practice and study [Shaolin martial arts which are] the transmitted teachings from our [Chinese] ancestors. In order to unearth the national treasures of our ancestral culture, and advance the tradition of Shaolin martial arts, we must reveal the true history, seek the origin, and by means of conclusive and irrefutable historical evidence inquire into and illuminate the relationship between Bodhidharma and Shaolin martial arts, thoroughly investigating and correcting this unfounded and misunderstood belief.”
In the Ming dynasty, Cheng Zongyou visited Shaolin and documented in 1621 (one of) their staff fighting methods, in such works as Staff Techniques of the Chan Sect of Shaolin (Shaolin Gunfa Chanzong) and Shaolin Staff Techniques (Shaolin Gunfa), he did not make any mention of Bodhidharma practicing martial arts. Thus, one can see that, from the creation of the monastery in the fifth century up to the Ming dynasty, over 1000 years, the belief did not exist that Bodhidharma had anything to do with Shaolin martial arts. Other Ming period books on Shaolin methods also make no mention of animals fighting, Damo, Yijin Jing, etc.

[r.(shaolin)]

First of all I'm not "claim(ing) to have documents that prove a legendary figure... ". I am pointing out that legends which reference and commemorate Bodhidharma and Shaolin martial arts pre-date, "The Travels of Lao Ts'an", "Shaolin School Methods" and "Secrets of Shaolin Boxing" Henning is talking about. My teacher (now in his late 90's) began training in the early 1920's (Shanghai). At that time his teacher was in his late 50's. My sigong began training sometimes in the 1870's. At the time my Shifu was in Shanghai, a master, who began training in the 1840's, from his Sigong's generation (originally from Henan) was still alive. These sets, set names and "legends" came from these older generations.
The sets I'm talking about (羅漢馬鐙操; 草訪花; and 落腳嵩山) which reference Bodhidharma, pre-date 1904/1907. As well, Shaolin Shifu Liu Baoshan's (劉寶山) sets: 達摩劍 Damo Jian and 達摩杖 Damo Zhang – which also reference Bodhidharma, as well pre-date the 1904/1907 stories Henning refers to.

And yes our legends do mention Vajrapaṇina bodhisattvena mahasattvena (金剛手菩薩) and Ksitigarbha 大願地藏菩薩.
. . . as with the above I'm not trying to prove that Bodhidharma or that these deities actually invented martial arts or martial sets :-)
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

CAO FANG HUA is a set of line exercises, correct?

Yes - 5 lines.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yes - 5 lines.
r.

is it like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB7n94_WT2s

[Sal Canzonieri]

R.;

I finally organized my books and found the LUOHAN MA DENG CAO book, it's like a set I learned when I was a kid.

I remember some years ago you wanted me to make a copy of this book, but I had moved and everything was packed.

You still want it?

[r.(shaolin)]

is it like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB7n94_WT2s

Hi Sal,
No its not.
All it says is the set shown is a Shaolin single form (少林 單式)
I'm I missing something? I don't see the name of the set shown.

[r.(shaolin)]

R.;

I finally organized my books and found the LUOHAN MA DENG CAO book, it's like a set I learned when I was a kid.

I remember some years ago you wanted me to make a copy of this book, but I had moved and everything was packed.

You still want it?

I'd love to see if its the same set. Possibly just scan a few pages if its not too much trouble.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,
No its not.
All it says is the set shown is a Shaolin single form (少林 單式)
I'm I missing something? I don't see the name of the set shown.

It's just a set of 5 rows of single postures that is traditional shaolin training material.

I was just wondering if it was the same as your 5 rows, you never know.

[r.(shaolin)]

Buddhidharma (Damo) did not Create Shaolin Martial Arts according to the late Shi De Qian:

Concerning this famous legend about Shaolin, according to the Shaolinsi Wushu Baike Quanshu, written by the late Shi De Qian, “After the [Manchu] Qing took over, there was fear among the government that the Han Chinese would try to revive the Ming and overthrow the Qing; on many occasions the government prohibited Buddhists, Taoists and common people from practicing martial arts. A few patriots who had the aim of restoring the Ming, yet did not dare to openly practice martial arts, in order to further their goal took advantage of the Qing government's faith in Buddhism and created the myth that Bodhidharma had created Shaolin boxing in order to deceive the government. They spread this story among the people in order to achieve the goal of being able to practice wushu and restore the Ming. Works such as Li Jing's preface to the Yijin Jing, "Shaolin Quanshu Mijue" (1915), Shaolin Quanfa Tushuo (1921), Secret of Tang Xianzu's Bodhidharma Style Boxing (Tang Xianzu Damo Pai Quan Jue, 1926), etc., all contributed to the propagation of this false belief that Bodhidharma had created Shaolin boxing; particularly the book Shaolin Quanfa Jingyi (1918), in which the author took Damo (Bodhidharma) as his name.”
Furthermore, according to the Shaolinsi Wushu Baike Quanshu, “In recent years some monks and lay boxing teachers are unclear as to the origins of Shaolin martial arts and they pass on hearsay which states that Shaolin martial arts were created by Bodhidharma. Therefore they have added "Bodhidharma" to the names of certain routines, such as Bodhidharma Sword (Damo jian), Bodhidharma Staff (Damo gun), Bodhidharma cane (Damo zhang), etc. Actually, this is all unfounded and erroneous speech. Particularly, in the Republican era, books such as True Meaning of Shaolin Boxing (Shaolin Quanfa Jingyi), Secrets of the Martial Arts of Shaolin (Shaolin Quanshu Mijue), Illustrated Explanation of Shaolin Boxing (Shaolin Quanfa Tushuo), and the like have propagated this theory, spreading it abroad and contributing to misunderstandings. This kind of talk is very unadvantageous to those of us who practice and study [Shaolin martial arts which are] the transmitted teachings from our [Chinese] ancestors. In order to unearth the national treasures of our ancestral culture, and advance the tradition of Shaolin martial arts, we must reveal the true history, seek the origin, and by means of conclusive and irrefutable historical evidence inquire into and illuminate the relationship between Bodhidharma and Shaolin martial arts, thoroughly investigating and correcting this unfounded and misunderstood belief.”
In the Ming dynasty, Cheng Zongyou visited Shaolin and documented in 1621 (one of) their staff fighting methods, in such works as Staff Techniques of the Chan Sect of Shaolin (Shaolin Gunfa Chanzong) and Shaolin Staff Techniques (Shaolin Gunfa), he did not make any mention of Bodhidharma practicing martial arts. Thus, one can see that, from the creation of the monastery in the fifth century up to the Ming dynasty, over 1000 years, the belief did not exist that Bodhidharma had anything to do with Shaolin martial arts. Other Ming period books on Shaolin methods also make no mention of animals fighting, Damo, Yijin Jing, etc.

HI Sal,
Thanks.
I find this article and its arguments rather wierd.
Most of the sources Shi De Qian uses are Republican sources out of context and have very little to do with "revive the Ming and overthrow the Qing" which by the late 1800's mostly a non-issue.

The fact remains that there is very little documentations about Shaolin even during the Ming. Perod. What there is, is thin.

To be honest I find arguing "the myth that Bodhidharma had created Shaolin boxing" to be a bit of a of 'straw dog'. In the case of our tradition it is clear that Bodhidharma did not create any martial arts. As you know, traditional Chinese records often contained a mixture of pseudo-historical, fictive material and folklore. Folkloric myths, containing miraculous stories and individuals who possessed superhuman qualities, were often included to persuade or to underline some didactic purpose. These literary devices were even employed in official Chinese historical narratives.
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

Shahar shows the monks historically worshiped King Jinnaluo (Vajrapani) as the progenitor of their arts.


Although Shahar makes a convincing case for the importance of Vajrapani at Shaolin,
the idea that they (the monk practitioner ) "worshiped (Vajrapani) as the progenitor of their arts." is simply not convincing.
r.

[David Jamieson]

What do you guys (r.shaolin and Sal) think about this book (http://www.amazon.com/Bodhidharma-Anthology-Earliest-Records-Lilienthal/dp/0520219724/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237292055&sr=8-2)

[r.(shaolin)]

This book is accepted by the academic community.
As a side note, most scholars, if not all, agree that "Two Entrances and Four Practices" ( 二入四行: Er ru sixing) is the only text which could be attributed to Bodhidharma.

r.

[David Jamieson]

There is a wealth of references in it's citations as well.
Are you guys familiar with any more of Armless Lin's works?
Is there a decent english version of the biographies of the notable monks?

[r.(shaolin)]

according to the Shaolinsi Wushu Baike Quanshu, written by the late Shi De Qian, “After the [Manchu] Qing took over, there was fear among the government that the Han Chinese would try to revive the Ming and overthrow the Qing; on many occasions the government prohibited Buddhists, Taoists and common people from practicing martial arts. A few patriots who had the aim of restoring the Ming, yet did not dare to openly practice martial arts, in order to further their goal took advantage of the Qing government's faith in Buddhism and created the myth that Bodhidharma had created Shaolin boxing in order to deceive the government.



I don't know if you have read it or not, but Meir Shahar's The Shaolin Monastery (2008) discusses Bodhidharma's legendary connections to martial arts in detail. Another books is Brian Kennedy's Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey. What surprises me is that some people on this thread are honestly still claiming Damo taught "exercises" to the monks when this was discredited as far back as the 1920's by Tang Hao. Shahar shows the monks historically worshiped King Jinnaluo (Vajrapani) as the progenitor of their arts.

I used to believe all of the martial legends floating around, but I've found the truth is otherwise with the help of scholarly publications and historical records.

In another forum someone asked what the exact age of the frescos of wuseng inside the Baiyi Hall was. My reply was that the exact date for these two frescos has not been determined, however they were likely done sometime between the late 1700’s or early 1800’s – during the last part of Qianlong’s reign or early part of Jiaqing’s reign.

You will note that included in these frescos are a significant number dark skinned monks and masters most likely representing Indian masters training with or teaching Chinese monks .

These murals strongly suggest that Shaolin monks during the late 1700/early 1800's believed that Shaolin Buddhism and Shaolin martial art had their origins with Indian masters. The point is not if these origins are fact but that the monks simply believed this to be the case. These murals show over two dozen Indian monks and masters. One Indian monk holding a Buddhist symbol of authority and obedience and sitting in the center of a pagoda, flanked on either side by Chinese monks, is being depicted as a senior master. Note, that by the time these these murals were done, Indian Buddhist monks had not been traveling to China for hundreds of years. Clearly, the murals of Baiyi Hall are more idealized beliefs held by the Shaolin monks of the time and not portraits of individual monks from the late Qing period.

These late Qing Dynasty murals support the idea that by the 1700, the Shoalin monks themselves, believed that both Chan and their martial arts came from India.

r.

[ghostexorcist]

First of all I'm not "claim(ing) to have documents that prove a legendary figure... ". I am pointing out that legends which reference and commemorate Bodhidharma and Shaolin martial arts pre-date, "The Travels of Lao Ts'an", "Shaolin School Methods" and "Secrets of Shaolin Boxing" Henning is talking about. [...] The sets I'm talking about (羅漢馬鐙操; 草訪花; and 落腳嵩山) which reference Bodhidharma, pre-date 1904/1907. As well, Shaolin Shifu Liu Baoshan's (劉寶山) sets: 達摩劍 Damo Jian and 達摩杖 Damo Zhang – which also reference Bodhidharma, as well pre-date the 1904/1907 stories Henning refers to.

And yes our legends do mention Vajrapaṇina bodhisattvena mahasattvena (金剛手菩薩) and Ksitigarbha 大願地藏菩薩.
. . . as with the above I'm not trying to prove that Bodhidharma or that these deities actually invented martial arts or martial sets :-)
r.
I never claimed you were trying to prove Damo invented the style. I was just saying that a lot of styles claim to have documents to prove this and its usually based on legend. And all I wanted to know is if your lineage's documents had actually been dated by a professional. Please forgive any perceived rudeness, I am just a highly skeptical person.

You should send scans of the documents and transcriptions of the oral legends to various martial historians to see what they think.


In another forum someone asked what the exact age of the frescos of wuseng inside the Baiyi Hall was. My reply was that the exact date for these two frescos has not been determined, however they were likely done sometime between the late 1700’s or early 1800’s – during the last part of Qianlong’s reign or early part of Jiaqing’s reign.

You will note that included in these frescos are a significant number dark skinned monks and masters most likely representing Indian masters training with or teaching Chinese monks .

These murals strongly suggest that Shaolin monks during the late 1700/early 1800's believed that Shaolin Buddhism and Shaolin martial art had their origins with Indian masters. The point is not if these origins are fact but that the monks simply believed this to be the case. These murals show over two dozen Indian monks and masters. One Indian monk holding a Buddhist symbol of authority and obedience and sitting in the center of a pagoda, flanked on either side by Chinese monks, is being depicted as a senior master. Note, that by the time these these murals were done, Indian Buddhist monks had not been traveling to China for hundreds of years. Clearly, the murals of Baiyi Hall are more idealized beliefs held by the Shaolin monks of the time and not portraits of individual monks from the late Qing period.

These late Qing Dynasty murals support the idea that by the 1700, the Shoalin monks themselves, believed that both Chan and their martial arts came from India.

r.
I've got to leave shortly, so I only have time left to comment on this breifly:

1) I've seen the fresco before. It's true some of the monks might be Indians, but they might have just been dark-skinned Chinese. There were and still are many dark-skinned Chinese. I have a friend from the south who is very dark. A term applied to them in the Tang was Kunlun (崑崙). When Arab traders brought African slaves to China, the term was applied to them, as well as foreigners from Southeast Asia. (for more info on the Kunlun monicker see the journal paper "The Magical Kunlun and "Devil Slaves": Chinese Perceptions of Dark-skinned People and Africa before 1500." It is an engaging piece for people interested in intercultural relations.)

2) Even if they truly were Indians, they might have just been visiting and were learning martial arts from their Chinese brothers. Or they were just Indians living in China. China has always been a huge cultural mixing pot. We can speculate all we want, but we can not really know what the real situation was.

Beyond the interplay between the Brahmin and Kshatriya class (take the legend of Parashurama for example), I am unaware of any long tradition of Buddhist warrior monks in India. However, that doesn't mean there aren't any.

3) Though a slim chance, the picture might have just been influenced by the Sinew-Changing Classic. Since it features an Indian Saint who comes to China and an unrelated India hermit who eventually translates Damo's work into Chinese, it seems possible that the monks would include Indians in the fresco.

[r.(shaolin)]

1) It's true some of the monks might be Indians, but they might have just been dark-skinned Chinese. There were and still are many dark-skinned Chinese. I have a friend from the south who is very dark. A term applied to them in the Tang was Kunlun (崑崙). When Arab traders brought African slaves to China....
....Even if they truly were Indians, they might have just been visiting and were learning martial arts from their Chinese brothers. Or they were just Indians living in China.


Not very likely. Buddhism declined and disappeared from India in around the 13th century long before these frescos were done. My point is that the murals in Baiyi Hall are not documentation or fact, but rather idealized beliefs held by the Shaolin monks during the 1700/1800's.

I think its pretty far fetched to suggest that the designers of these murals at Shaolin intended dark skinned monk to represent Kunlun (African slaves), Indians living in China or simply dark skinned Chinese.

[r.(shaolin)]

However, the idea (legend) of him (Damo) teaching specific martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publication of the previously mentioned political novel.

My point is that the legend of Damo teaching martial arts at Shaolin pre-dates
"The Travels of Lao Ts'an", "Shaolin School Methods" and "Secrets of Shaolin Boxing".
r.

[ghostexorcist]

Not very likely. Buddhism declined and disappeared from India in around the 13th century long before these frescos were done. My point is that the murals in Baiyi Hall are not documentation or fact, but rather idealized beliefs held by the Shaolin monks during the 1700/1800's.

I think its pretty far fetched to suggest that the designers of these murals at Shaolin intended dark skinned monk to represent Kunlun (African slaves), Indians living in China or simply dark skinned Chinese.
I never implied that it was African slaves. I just said the name was used for all dark-skinned people.

I don't see how dark-skinned Chinese or Indians living in China is far fetched. Foreigners have lived in China for centuries.

[sha0lin1]

I don't think that it is far fetched at all to believe the Indians taught the monks. I have always believed that Shaolin probably evolved from Kalaripayatu, the Indian Martial art. In many ways there are a lot of similarities between the two arts. The Chinese took that and modified and expounded on it and it became TCMA. I have never seen this documented anywhere, this is just based on my observation.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think that it is far fetched at all to believe the Indians taught the monks. I have always believed that Shaolin probably evolved from Kalaripayatu, the Indian Martial art. In many ways there are a lot of similarities between the two arts. The Chinese took that and modified and expounded on it and it became TCMA. I have never seen this documented anywhere, this is just based on my observation.

It can be equally surmised that modern Kalaripayit has been revived and has extensively borrowed from Shaolin kungfu practice. lol

[sha0lin1]

It can be equally surmised that modern Kalaripayit has been revived and has extensively borrowed from Shaolin kungfu practice. lol


Maybe, I have never really looked into the history and origins, but I bet if one did then they would probably find that Kalari predates Shaolin.

[David Jamieson]

Maybe, I have never really looked into the history and origins, but I bet if one did then they would probably find that Kalari predates Shaolin.

maybe so, but it cannot be connected to shaolin practice in the here and now or even in the then and there. Indian culture tends to want to predate everything in some tellings. :) But, seeing as the Harapa empire was likely the worlds first, I won't begrudge them that. :)


martial arts develop independently all over the world depending on teh requirement for them. same as most other cultural practices such as religion, written language, engineering and so on.

from one continental region to another, parallel development of human cultures is quite common.

chinese martial arts are distinctive and definitely chinese. while there is some similarity to kalari from shaolin, there are huge differences as well. It just takes time to look.

[Vajramusti]

1. The Bodhidharma was real person. His major role was in the introduction of dhyana(zan. chan, zen) which pointed to disciplined observation and experience of reality-rather than ritual, sutras and dependence on literature. he was not at the Shaolin temple but in a place near it.

2. Jeffrey Broughton's The Bodhidharma anthology and Red Pine's translation of The Outline of Practice sermon(labelled Two Entrances in Broughton's work)give clear indications of Chan and its roots in the Mahayana tradition also followed in Nagarjuna's work.

3. Most cultures including Chinese have had some forms of martial training.Bodhidharma's likely contribution is not into a specific shaolin style . ..but the integration of posture, breath and meditation is more likely to have informed some martial arts in China and Japan... later in parts of SE Asia.

4. memories can fade specially with the rise of nationalist ideologies but there were quite a few Indian monks
who went to China. Some for teaching, translating sutras and also for sharing and studying eclipses and ancient astronomy- see Needham's classic opus -Science and Civilization in China.Later there were Chinese and Korean monks that travelled to India and some took sutras back with them. Some Indian sutras were lost but rediscovered in Chinese translations.

5. Kalraipayyatu though well preserved is not the only martial art.In ancient Indian Buddhist centers of learning (Nalanda etc)martial training including archery was part of the curriculum as preparations for meditations.Kalaripayyatu and other Indian arts incorporated aspects of yoga into their practice. Indian martial traditions and the Chinese both have used animal names for different postures-tiger etc.at one time or another. English colonialism "contributed"(ugh) to the decline of the martial arts in India. China- while alsoa victim of colonialism-had to deal more with the economic aspects of western colonialism- whereas in India there was the take over of army and police functions by the Brits...including regulation of martial arts activities that might lead to anti state behavior.The attcks on the "thugees" are examples.

6 Buddhism declined with Hindu revivals and later with Moslem conquests- but did'nt disappear--
The Chittagong area in Bangla desh still has some Buddhists with a continuing practice..Sri Lanka as part of South Asia remained a major source of Buddhism, Tibetan buddhism was stimulated by monks from Bengal and the Ladkh area of kashmir had/has Buddhists.BTW because of Ambedkar and aspects of the Dakit movement there is ome revival of Buddhism.
And, places like the Mhabodhi society in Kolkata have always worked on Buddhist studies.

joy chaudhuri (PS. Please excuse typos)

[sha0lin1]

maybe so, but it cannot be connected to shaolin practice in the here and now or even in the then and there. Indian culture tends to want to predate everything in some tellings. :) But, seeing as the Harapa empire was likely the worlds first, I won't begrudge them that. :)


martial arts develop independently all over the world depending on teh requirement for them. same as most other cultural practices such as religion, written language, engineering and so on.

from one continental region to another, parallel development of human cultures is quite common.

chinese martial arts are distinctive and definitely chinese. while there is some similarity to kalari from shaolin, there are huge differences as well. It just takes time to look.


I don't think that even shaolin practice in the here and now can be connected to the then and there. I am saying that Shaolin possibly had its roots in Kalari and was probably changed and adapted to fit the chinese culture. Of course there are differences between the two arts and they can't be compared today just like I don't think that Shaolin is the same today as it was in the1300's or 1700's for that matter. I think it highly likely that Bodhidarhma was likey versed in Kalari (or some other Indian art) and taught those exercises. Over the centuries they were changed and adapted by the Shaolin to suit their needs and cultural practices. After all some of the postures we use in our forms are very yogic like, i.e. Tong Zi Bai Fo, Zoupan. In the end, no one will ever really know definitively, due to the lack of written materials and destruction of records through the ages. All historians can do is give their best educated guess based on various documents written in various historical periods to try to put the pieces of the puzzle together. It is the same for Christianity as well. Did Christ exist? As a man yes, but did he poses the powers attributed to him by the writers of the gospels? Who really knows? After all, the gospels were written years after his death and they were written by men, and even they give very different accounts of Christ.

[David Jamieson]

I think too many of us operate on discovery channel educations. lol

It wasn't until about 10 years ago that I started looking at actual documentation as opposed to a complete diet of what others say.

It's quite interesting and fulfilling because often, one persons interpretation is not necessarily the original intent of the writer! In fact, the original intent, unless quite specific is always open to interpretation.

Shaolin has been around for a long time, even the neo shaolin is almost 30 years old.

On another note, has anyone considered that the dark ones in teh murals may very well be asuras and not humans at all?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many people believe that the "secret" in finding the "missing pieces' of their selected system is in its roots and the further back they go the "better".
I can sympathize.
I don't agree, but I can see how some can feel that way.

[David Jamieson]

Many people believe that the "secret" in finding the "missing pieces' of their selected system is in its roots and the further back they go the "better".
I can sympathize.
I don't agree, but I can see how some can feel that way.

If I can't find what I want to eat readily, then I will have to choose something else to fill my gut and sustain me until I can find what I specifically want.

metaphorically speaking...in regards to knowledge of Shaolin, Ch'an, Bodidharma, the lineage, etc etc etc.

the oral tradition has been spoiled these days. there is a lot of completely nonsense information floating around out there and for newbs, they are just sucking it up no matter where it comes from and with each regurgitation of the wrong, we get more to the flock of the wrong.

It's too bad, but when we are talking about the various paths of shaolin, in many cases it is important to try to rectify the incorrect and seek the for true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If I can't find what I want to eat readily, then I will have to choose something else to fill my gut and sustain me until I can find what I specifically want.

metaphorically speaking...in regards to knowledge of Shaolin, Ch'an, Bodidharma, the lineage, etc etc etc.

the oral tradition has been spoiled these days. there is a lot of completely nonsense information floating around out there and for newbs, they are just sucking it up no matter where it comes from and with each regurgitation of the wrong, we get more to the flock of the wrong.

It's too bad, but when we are talking about the various paths of shaolin, in many cases it is important to try to rectify the incorrect and seek the for true.

In the case of historical significance, sure, in terms of martial application, not needed.
Pressure testing should fill in any questions you may have.
There are many great works out there, works that are unbiased and not there to peddle any "linage" or with "questionable" motives.
People should focus on those and not on the BS that is typically fed.
But we know that, once something become "mantra" you need an exorcism to get rid of it !!

[richard sloan]

It is true. You are thinking about the Yi Jin Jing (1624), which attributes the qigong exercise to Bodhidharma. The first of two prefaces states after Damo's death, the monks of Shaolin discovered two qigong manuals written by the Buddhist saint. One manual was lost and the other was supposedly not translated into Chinese from Sanskrit until much later. However, the idea of him teaching specific martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publication of the previously mentioned political novel.

but none of the monks think yi jin jing is from a book. it is claimed that it was a direct teaching, we even call it a sutra.

also in our tradition 2 of Bato's disciples were former generals/warriors who maintained their training and possibly transmitted their martial arts to other monks at shaolin.

[golden arhat]

i'm familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.

so i ask again, who tells that story?

really you've never heard that before? thats like the pretty standard legend regarding da mo

[LFJ]

really you've never heard that before? thats like the pretty standard legend regarding da mo

really. standard to whom? by what criteria?

i guess it doesnt really matter, but i havent heard it that way (that he was denied) from any monk in shaolinsi, nor from any qualified zen master, modern or historical.

people referenced a book and a documentary. we know how reliable those can be. but it would really be one out of a million, for me, and not being straight from the mouth of a qualified buddhist monk or teacher, being one in a million, i wouldnt rely on it.

bodhidharma's real value is in his teaching anyway. not how he was treated by unawakened folks, but how he reacted to them.

[r.(shaolin)]

As Gene points out in this thread has been well discussed. I sat down and re-read these. Actually quite interesting.

Check our archives: Bodhidharma(damo) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38368)
You should also examine Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521) by Dr. Meir Shahar
...................
Allow me to rehash a couple more points.

Shaolin Encyclopedia (Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu):
"Not only did Bodhidharma not transmit any boxing techniques to any monks; moreover, there is no relation between Bodhidharma and the monks practicing boxing."

In his article written in 1999, Academia Encounters the Chinese Martial Arts, Stanley Henning makes this statement:

"The earliest extant written reference to Bodhidharma and boxing appears in Liu E’s popular novel, Travels of Lao Ts’an (ca. 1907), followed by a highly controversial manual, portions of which were variously published (author unknown) beginning around 1911 (in the midst of unrest and revolution) as Illustrated Explanation of Shaolin Boxing Methods and Secrets of Shaolin Boxing."

While it maybe true from one point of view that it may be the earliest written reference to Bodhidharma, it is incorrect to assume that Bodhidharma was not previously believed to be connected with marital arts at Shaolin. I am convinced that by at least the 18th century martial artist including monks at Shaolin thought otherwise. Myths have played a crucial role in the forming of individual and communal identities. Clearly there is evidence that this was the case with the monks of Shaolin. The point in discussing these myths is to illuminate, not eliminate, these legends by seeing how they have passed into and shaped Shaolin.
Liu E did not invent the Bodhidharma connection – and there is evidence support that by at least the late 18th century the Shaolin monks themselves considered Bodhidharma as the "root" (本) of both its Buddhism and martial arts. The Shaolin frescos should not be viewed as some somesort of 'snap shot' of a specific training-day' at Shaolin, but rather I would suggest that they should be viewed as idealizations of 'history'. Some of the beliefs' the murals suggests are:
- Bodhidharma was the "root" (本) of both Shaolin Buddhism and martial arts.
- Indian monks, retired generals, exchanged martial arts with Shaolin monks.
- Shaolin included a full range of weaponry, coming from earlier periods.
Shahar's makes a case for (Vajrapani) as the patron of Shaolin staff arts (and a venerated martial deity) but not the root of all their martial arts. I believe that by at least the 18 century, Bodhidharma was considered to be root of Shaolin martial arts.
r.

[LFJ]

anything you do correctly, not inversely, is chan.

therefore, bodhidharma is the root of shaolin martial arts as "wugong chan".

doesnt mean he is the founder or creator of the arts.

bodhidharma is the root of reality, the mind-ground, bodhi, dharma.

[r.(shaolin)]

anything you do correctly, not inversely, is chan.

therefore, bodhidharma is the root of shaolin martial arts as "wugong chan".

doesnt mean he is the founder or creator of the arts.

bodhidharma is the root of reality, the mind-ground, bodhi, dharma.

Agreed . . . mostly.

Here are some observations on the Baiyi Hall "Methods of Martial Arts" fresco's.
First the one that shows barehand combat:
It is my opinion that the large non-Chinese dark skinned monk in the very center of the composition is meant to represent Bodhidharma. The composition is intentionally symmetrical and I believe that the placement of this figure is intentional. Further more, by the 18th century it was a convention that Bodhidharma be shown with a beard. Note that there is only one figure with a beard in each of these frescos.

In the second fresco "methods of martial arts" in Baiyi Hall (the one with weapon combat), we see Bodhidharma enshrined at the center in the lower base pavilion. The placement symbolizes Ben (本) and also Men (門). We know that this figure is Bodhidharma because above him are the characters" "Ben Di Yuan Zu - 本 諦 源祖) which means - The root of truth's origin is Bodhidharma" (not the literal translation). You could also translate this as: Bodhidharma is the method's origin. On the pavilion's right it is written 法力無邊 (Fa Li Wu Bian) which means: The power of the 'way' has no boundary. On the pavilion's left it is written: 佛恩廣大 (Fo En Guang Da), which means Buddha's benevolence is vast. Note that out of the left door of this pavilion the only bearded monk (which I believe to also represents Bodhidharma) is emerging holding a mace. The mace is a weapon for crushing and essentially symbolized the smashing of the ignorance and emotional defilements created by karma 因果. His placement on the side of the center gate, symbolizes the 'defense of the gate'.

Showing Bodhidharma so centrally in these two fresco on "methods of martial arts" demonstrates that he was viewed as important to Shaolin martial arts at the time.

cheers,
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

4. memories can fade specially with the rise of nationalist ideologies but there were quite a few Indian monks who went to China.

Really. Can you post some references, dates and names. I know a few Buddhist scholars that would be interested in this info.
r.

[Vajramusti]

Really. Can you post some references, dates and names. I know a few Buddhist scholars that would be interested in this info.
r.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Needham's multi volume classic scholarly work "Science and Civilization in China"contains references to Buddhist monks and astronomers in India. Check the indices. Good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[r.(shaolin)]

During the Ming and Qing period there were a few remaining Buddhist communities in parts of India. However, the kind of movement of monks between India and China discussed by Needham and being suggested in these Qing dynasty frescos, happened much, much earlier. In the 11th century Buddhism was already in decline in Indian and at the end of the 12th century the Moslems conquered Magadha, the heartland of Buddhism in India, and wiped out Buddhism there. By then movement of monks between China and India largely stopped. Certainly, by the Ming and Qing period here are no records of any important monks coming from India to China. My point is that the fresco's are not a depiction of who was at Shaolin at the time they were done.
r.

[Vajramusti]

When i cited Needham- I was not referring to the Ming/Qing periods but much much earlier.
Agree about the frescoes.
Thx. joy chaudhuri

[uki]

bodiharma is best viewed as a principle. :)

[GeneChing]

This is the only thread that pops when this forum is searched for 'kalaripayatu' (more pop if 'kalari' is searched).



Kalaripayatu and Shaolin Kungu exponents perform together at (http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/kalaripayatu-and-shaolin-kungu-exponents-perform-together-at-115062600934_1.html)
Press Trust of India | Thiruvananthapuram June 26, 2015 Last Updated at 18:57 IST

In a rare fusion of two traditional art forms, exponents of Kalaripayatu, the classical martial art form of Kerala and Shaolin Kung Fu, performed at the Chinese capital of Beijing today as part of a programme organised by Kerala Tourism.

Six performers of 'Kalaripayattu' joined hands with Shaolin exponents at 'Kerala Evening', a programme organised at the Indian Embassy in Beijing, Kerala Tourism Minister A P Anilkumar, presently leading a high-level state delegation to China, said in a release here.

Kerala Tourism is making its foray into China, a vast market with 107 million Chinese tourists traveling worldwide, according to figures available for 2014.

A shared cultural heritage was the theme as Shaolin exponents effortlessly mingled with Kalaripayattu performers in a scintillating display of martial arts.

Two Kathakali artists from Kerala then went on to enthrall the audience, which had the who's who of Chinese travel and tourism industry.

"The breathtaking fusion of Kalaripayattu and Shaolin showed that Kerala and China have a lot in common," said Anilkumar.

"Like Kerala, China has a rich tradition of classical art forms such as the famous Dragon dance, making it easy for us to understand the country and its culture and also for the people of China to understand our culture," a press release quoting the minister said.

"Relations between the people of China and Kerala go back to centuries when traders from China and Kerala exchanged commodities like spices and silk," the minister said, adding that China and Kerala shared several cultural traditions like martial arts, ancient medicinal systems and even kitchen utensils.

"Kerala is a tiny state of India, but it is blessed with a rich geographical and cultural diversity," said Kerala Chief Secretary, Jiji Thomson, who is part of the state delegation.

"With an easy connectivity and ideal proximity, Kerala is a natural destination for visitors from China.

"The first thing that tourists from worldwide see on our famous backwaters is the Chinese fishing net along its coast. The most important thing in a kitchen in Kerala is the Chinese frying pan," Thomson said.

[GeneChing]

I'm posting this in Bodhidharma's Influence and what Shaolin means to TCMA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?53457-Bodhidharma-s-Influence-and-what-Shaolin-means-to-TCMA) because it popped when searching 'yoga' in the Shaolin sub-forum, plus the Yoga thread (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?22367-Yoga), of course.


Posted at: Jun 21, 2019, 5:28 PM; last updated: Jun 21, 2019, 5:28 PM (IST)
Yoga enthusiasts across the world perform asanas to mark International Yoga Day (https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/yoga-enthusiasts-across-the-world-perform-asanas-to-mark-international-yoga-day/791049.html)

https://images.tribuneindia.com/cms/gall_content/2019/6/2019_6$largeimg21_Friday_2019_172811383.JPG
This photo taken on June 20, 2019, shows yoga enthusiasts performing yoga in a cave at Longgong village in Dafang County, Bijie City, in China''s southwest Guizhou Province, to mark International Yoga Day on June 21. AFP
Beijing/London, June 21

From China’s famed Shaolin Temple to Britain’s iconic St. Paul’s Cathedral, yoga enthusiasts rolled out their mats on Friday to participate in colourful events held across the world to mark the fifth International Yoga Day.

June 21, the Northern Hemisphere’s longest day, is celebrated as the International Yoga Day worldwide after the United Nations General Assembly adopted in 2014 a proposal mooted by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Yoga has become immensely popular all over China in the past few decades and is emerging as a major fitness discipline which is specially promoted by the Chinese Ministry of Sports.

Hundreds of yoga enthusiasts took part in the yoga day event organised by the Indian Embassy in Beijing at the India House in which Indian Ambassador Vikram Misri and his wife were present.

Addressing the yoga enthusiasts, Misri said yoga represents not just the civilisational connect between India and China “but also the modern aspirations of our two people, that acknowledge the shared benefit of working together in spirit of friendship and cooperation”.

Yoga events were held at the Tianhe Tan Park in Guiyang, Yellow Crane Tower in Wuhan, Shaolin Temple in Henan and Qingdao city in Shandong, the Indian Embassy said in a statement.

The Shaolin Temple in central China’s Henan province is a famed Buddhist temple believed to have been founded in the 5th century CE. It is the main temple of the Shaolin school of Buddhism.

In the UK, yoga enthusiasts marked the day with a session at the iconic Durdle Door stone arch, a natural UNESCO World Heritage Site on the south-western coast of England.

The first-of-its-kind open-air event at the site, which involved around 30 yoga enthusiasts performing asanas, was organised by India Tourism London.

The Indian High Commission’s annual yoga session in London took place near another famous UK tourist spot of St. Paul’s Cathedral in the British capital.

In Israel, over 400 people performed asanas to mark the International Day of Yoga at the picturesque Hatachana compound in Jerusalem, with India’s envoy to Israel Pavan Kapoor asking the Israeli government to consider making it a part of the annual calendar of events.

“It always amazes me to see how popular yoga is in Israel. The number of teachers that you have in the country. The different kind of yoga that is practiced and taught. Everything from pre-school yoga to workplace yoga,” Kapoor said.

In a first of its kind yoga celebration, the iconic UN General Assembly hall reverberated with chants of ‘Om’, ‘Shanti’ as UN officials and diplomats joined hundreds others to commemorate the International Yoga Day with the underlying message of yoga’s valuable contribution in addressing climate change and promoting tolerance and peace.

It was the first time a grand yoga event was held inside the iconic UNGA hall.

In Singapore, the Indian High Commission observed the International Yoga Day at the Sunlove Homes for the Intellectually Infirmed, Demantia and elderly day care centre.

The yoga sessions held across the city-state, touched the lives of the physically challenged, the commission said.

In Abu Dhabi, thousands of Indian expatriate residents and others participated in yoga sessions.

The Indian Embassy in Abu Dhabi hosted the celebrations at the Umm Al Emarat Park from 7 p.m. onwards on Thursday evening, the Gulf News reported.

Shaikh Nahyan Bin Mubarak Al Nahyan, United Arab Emirates’ (UAE) Minister of Tolerance, who was the chief guest along with Charge d’Affaires of the mission, Smita Pant, inaugurated the event.

Shaikh Nahyan congratulated India on the occasion and said: “Yoga encourages an attitude that looks towards a common humanity as an extension of the ancient principle of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam,” the report added.

In Bangladesh, the yoga day celebration at the Bangabandhu National Stadium in Dhaka drew around 7,000 enthusiasts joining the sessions organised by the Indian High Commission.

Sports associations, Yoga associations and Institutes, students from various schools, colleges and universities in Bangladesh participated in the celebrations. Several celebrities including sports personalities, popular film actors, and singers also participated in the event.

Sri Lankan President Maithripala Sirisena tweeted a video in which he is seen performing asanas.

“I compliment my friend @narendramodi for his efforts at bringing our common heritage of Yoga to the international stage. I urge all to practice yoga like me,” he tweeted.

The fifth International Yoga Day was also celebrated across Australian cities, including Melbourne, Canberra and Brisbane.

A yoga session was held in the Indian High Commission in Canberra on Friday.

According to the World Health Organisation, yoga is a valuable tool to increase physical activity and decrease non-communicable disease such as hypertension, diabetes, heart diseases and stroke. PTI

[Djuan]

see here, the way it spreads it just as it is. then the credit doesnt matter? the same people who say giving Damo credit is pointless and without grounds, are the ones who honor the masters and their lineages (usually) , so further up the tree doesnt count? what year does history become pointless? as scholars and critical thinkers, arent we supposed to account for a thing in its wholeness?

lol Im gonna go ahead and give Damo credit as the founder of what we all practice.
I'm glad to see so many people benefit from qigong and yoga , as well as meditation practices and martial arts that all have their origin in "Buddhas hall" .....people of earth not getting credit for their influence on the planet is an entirely different topic, and I wont do it in this forum anyhow lol

Bodhidharma and all the Dharmapala warriors from the time of the 1st Buddha till now, with the modern Sangha all deserve their respect. its only fair.

Amituofo