Hands Of Wing Chun

[Yoshiyahu]

Hey lets discuss the various hands of Wing Chun and their possible uses and applications:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3633052152250361017

http://www.wingchunonline.com/Wingchun/Training_hands.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun_terms#Limb_names


Here are so of many techinques. But their are many others. Just the beginning. I know how to use all these hands. But sometimes the chinese termiology I forget. So I do not remember all the names my self. There are like five I forget about sometime. So don't be stress out about learning terminology right away. In time you will get use to words.

1. Bong Sao (wing arm)
2. Tan Sao (palm up hand)
3. Pak Sao (slapping hand)
4. Fok Sao (controlling hand or bridge hand)
5. Lop Sao (pulling hand or grabbing hand)
6. Wu Sao (protecting hand)
7. Tok Sao (lifting hand)
8. Jut Sao (jerking hand)
9. Jum Sao (sinking hand)
10. Huen Sao (circling hand)
11. Kwun Sao (rotating hand)
12. Gum Sao (pinning hand)
13. Lan Sao (bar arm)
14. Man Sao (searching hand)
15. Tie Sao (raising hand)
16. Gan Sao (splitting hand)
17. Bil Sao (thrusting hand)
18. Jip Sau (Receiving Hand)

[sihing]

Hey lets discuss the various hands of Wing Chun and their possible uses and applications:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3633052152250361017

http://www.wingchunonline.com/Wingchun/Training_hands.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun_terms#Limb_names


Here are so of many techinques. But their are many others. Just the beginning. I know how to use all these hands. But sometimes the chinese termiology I forget. So I do not remember all the names my self. There are like five I forget about sometime. So don't be stress out about learning terminology right away. In time you will get use to words.

1. Bong Sao (wing arm)basically a Helping action, to facilitate more hitting
2. Tan Sao (palm up hand) trains hitting with elbow "IN" position, usually from inside line
3. Pak Sao (slapping hand) trains hitting, usually from outside line, maybe from a bit further out;secondary useage trap from outside range and line
4. Fok Sao (controlling hand or bridge hand)trains hitting again/elbow isolation, trains forearm formation for most all upper body movements:secondary use subduing bridge from over top,
5. Lop Sao (pulling hand or grabbing hand)helping action to clear line for hitting
6. Wu Sao (protecting hand) used in cooperation with bong to set up hitting;secondary useage as a compass, always aiming towards centerline/com. Can also be used as outside line deflection after contact has been made and COG is challenged
7. Tok Sao (lifting hand)helping action, from underneath, good for colargrab defense and elbow break, etc.
8. Jut Sao (jerking hand)clearing line action to facilitate hitting
9. Jum Sao (sinking hand)natural recoil action from hitting, useful when on the outside of a bridge
10. Huen Sao (circling hand)trains wrist strength/flexibility/relaxation for hitting;secondary useage for redirection of on coming energy, not used to much for dealing with strikes, but can see useage when wrists/arms are grabbed
11. Kwun Sao (rotating hand)"Quan sau" another adaption of Bong/Wu concept, good for getting out of pinned positions..sorta used like lan sau concept as a barrier on the inside clinchin range
12. Gum Sao (pinning hand)over the top block, we use this as a pressing action "Soh Sau", rather than a pinning action "Gum Sau"
13. Lan Sao (bar arm)"barrier arm", used for creating space, deflecting energy, forming a barrier between you and him
14. Man Sao (searching hand)"asking hand" sort of a temporary guarding hand when range is extended, causes some opponents to answer the question, which is to your advantage
15. Tie Sao (raising hand)??not familiar with this term
16. Gan Sao (splitting hand)low line defence and used for outside to inside control and movement..like a big huen sau
17. Bil Sao (thrusting hand)long range movement, can be used for inside or outside of bridge contact
18. Jip Sau (Receiving Hand)??not familiar with term

Just a few opinions on the terms and useages. One can't get caught up in all of these "sau's" as you will then become like a static picture, dead movement and not alive. They are all considered verb's, action words and concept based, with the whole movement considered to be the action or technique.

Wing chun's real genius is it's development of the whole structure, lower and upper body cooperation in all movements, to produce a fighter than can move fast, adapt well, strike hard and maintain a inside fighting range to crowd the opponent, jamming up their power generation mechanism, rather than chasing hands with this or that sau or block when he does this or that attack.

It's a system based on courage first, experience second, and aggression third, among other things.


James

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post James.

If anyone has anything else to add. Or pictures of other hands of WC not mention above please feel free to share?

[AdrianK]

Wing chun's real genius is it's development of the whole structure, lower and upper body cooperation in all movements, to produce a fighter than can move fast, adapt well, strike hard and maintain a inside fighting range to crowd the opponent, jamming up their power generation mechanism, rather than chasing hands with this or that sau or block when he does this or that attack.

It's a system based on courage first, experience second, and aggression third, among other things.

Its really easy to dress up a system with powerful words.

Wing Chun is a system of movements, templates, concepts.
Just like boxing is a system of movements, templates, concepts.

In the context of fighting as a whole, its a necessary system because it fills in a gap that most other systems don't.

The genius is in the practitioner utilizing it in context, with other systems that complete their general knowledge of fighting. A system with powerful and refined kicking, like muay thai, a system with powerful and refined punching, footwork and body movement, like boxing, a system with powerful and refined ground work, like BJJ, etc. etc.

Wing chun is useless on its own.
Unless you're just using it for self-defense against the lowest common denominator of opponent. In which case, its more effective to just go to the gym and learn how to hit someone really ****ing hard.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun is usesless on its on?

So you believe Boxers and Muay Thai Fighters are not capable of defeating someone who trains both a striking art and ground fighting art?


If Yip Man was 40 years old today and still alive how many MMA fighters do you think today could defeat him?




Its really easy to dress up a system with powerful words.

Wing Chun is a system of movements, templates, concepts.
Just like boxing is a system of movements, templates, concepts.

In the context of fighting as a whole, its a necessary system because it fills in a gap that most other systems don't.

The genius is in the practitioner utilizing it in context, with other systems that complete their general knowledge of fighting. A system with powerful and refined kicking, like muay thai, a system with powerful and refined punching, footwork and body movement, like boxing, a system with powerful and refined ground work, like BJJ, etc. etc.

Wing chun is useless on its own.
Unless you're just using it for self-defense against the lowest common denominator of opponent. In which case, its more effective to just go to the gym and learn how to hit someone really ****ing hard.

[AdrianK]

So you believe Boxers and Muay Thai Fighters are not capable of defeating someone who trains both a striking art and ground fighting art?

You misunderstand.
Any fighter who is focusing on only training one style or one range of fighting that doesn't cover other ranges, is at such a huge disadvantage that they might as well just go lift weights and get strong instead.

A straight boxer or muay thai fighter who gets taken to the ground, will most likely be defeated.

Does that mean all grapplers win? No, a grappler who has no idea how to strike or take a punch will get his ass kicked too.

The point is, what the **** kind of SENSE does it make to train for only ONE type of fight??? Its ridiculous. You're wasting your time.

[bakxierboxer]

A straight boxer or muay thai fighter who gets taken to the ground, will most likely be defeated.

Are you implying that a "not-straight" boxer or muay thai fighter who gets taken to the ground would "win"/enjoy the "experience".......
It's also possible that a little bit of "extra" punishment might even be welcome.

[LSWCTN1]

You misunderstand.
Any fighter who is focusing on only training one style or one range of fighting that doesn't cover other ranges, is at such a huge disadvantage that they might as well just go lift weights and get strong instead.


my wing chun covers all ranges, except one - the ground.

even then there are some specific techniques (locks etc) that can be used on the ground - but i still wouldnt say that my wc covers this range

[AdrianK]

Are you implying that a "not-straight" boxer or muay thai fighter who gets taken to the ground would "win"/enjoy the "experience".......
It's also possible that a little bit of "extra" punishment might even be welcome.

lol



my wing chun covers all ranges, except one - the ground.

Go you! :)

[taojkd]

Are you implying that a "not-straight" boxer or muay thai fighter who gets taken to the ground would "win"/enjoy the "experience".......

A not-straight boxer? you mean he's gay? I guess maybe he might enjoy being taken to the ground depending on your sexual orientation.

Look, you open these doors, i just walk through them.


It's also possible that a little bit of "extra" punishment might even be welcome.
Only if he's into the rough stuff.


Wing chun is useless on its own.
No. It holds its own just fine even against other styles if you train for it.

The WC i have studied my not do a lot of ground fighting but it did have some. Not saying that any one style is best, but i think your point of stating that WC is useless by itself is a bit stretched. You may get jumped every week for the rest of your life and it might never go to the ground. Or you may train in FMA and never once have someone draw a knife/stick on you.

Albeit, i'm a huge advocate for cross training (i.e. bjj, mt, wc, boxing, fma), but each has their own strengths that it can stand on alone.

[bakxierboxer]

A not-straight boxer? you mean he's gay? I guess maybe he might enjoy being taken to the ground depending on your sexual orientation.

... and who gets to play the "mountie"/"mounty"/"mountee"?



Look, you open these doors, i just walk through them.


This one was located at the rear of the oedipus..... or was that an edifice?



Only if he's into the rough stuff.

"What's sauce....." "got to do with it"?



Albeit, i'm a huge advocate for cross training...

How do you need/decide to dress for the "occasion"?

[Phil Redmond]

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;921298]
I have to add this. Tan sao doesn't mean palm up hand.

[couch]

Just a few opinions on the terms and useages. One can't get caught up in all of these "sau's" as you will then become like a static picture, dead movement and not alive. They are all considered verb's, action words and concept based, with the whole movement considered to be the action or technique.

Wing chun's real genius is it's development of the whole structure, lower and upper body cooperation in all movements, to produce a fighter than can move fast, adapt well, strike hard and maintain a inside fighting range to crowd the opponent, jamming up their power generation mechanism, rather than chasing hands with this or that sau or block when he does this or that attack.

It's a system based on courage first, experience second, and aggression third, among other things.


James

Hmm..there seems to be a common theme in your response.

What's the word I'm looking for that appears so frequently?

Oh! It's: HITTING!

(Tongue-in-cheek response)

Cheers!

[Yoshiyahu]

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;921298]
I have to add this. Tan sao doesn't mean palm up hand.

What does Tan Sau mean besides Palm up block? I am familiar with another term such as dispersing hand...But please share what it is? What does tan mean?

Tan=(your words here)

Sau=(hand)

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Tan sau means spread out arm my wing chun covers all aspects of the game, even ground fighting. What you can do standing up can you not take those principles to the ground game? Things like control and dominate the center, dont cross center, maintain control of opponent at all times, i mean your already made contact. Does Chi sau not teach use to use that contact as a bridge to cross and destroy? think about it.

[anerlich]

WC Is Useless alone.

Why do you have to create so many threads then turn them all onto this obsession?

[Liddel]

Why do you have to create so many threads then turn them all onto this obsession?

Because without a soapbox his mantra is useless :rolleyes: :cool:


....such a strong word LOL...

DREW

[Wayfaring]

Wing Chun is usesless on its own?

So you believe Boxers and Muay Thai Fighters are not capable of defeating someone who trains both a striking art and ground fighting art?

If Yip Man was 40 years old today and still alive how many MMA fighters do you think today could defeat him?

Wing Chun is not useless on its own, you are. If someone squares off against you, Wing Chun will not cover your @ss, you have to.

So you believe not being a multi-dimensional fighter is a better approach to emerging victorious in a fight?

If Yip Man was 40 years old and alive today, what makes you think he wouldn't have trained himself to be a MMA fighter? Martial artists train to meet the demands of the world they live in.

[AdrianK]

No. It holds its own just fine even against other styles if you train for it.

It holds its own, by itself, if someone fights in a specific range.
Otherwise, you need to supplement it with knowledge outside of that.



The WC i have studied my not do a lot of ground fighting but it did have some.

The point isn't that every once in awhile, you come across a wing chun school who does grappling. Big ****ing deal. The point is, its not in the curriculum. Its awesome if your instructor is teaching you competent ground fighting, but its not in the style.

The point originally was a criticism of the idea that wing chun itself is the all-encompassing god of the universe, as if mere exposure to it could transform you into a phenomenon. Not that there aren't good wing chun schools, or that the style at what it does, isn't really good, cause there definitely are, and it definitely is, in my opinion.



Not saying that any one style is best, but i think your point of stating that WC is useless by itself is a bit stretched.

I explained this earlier - Useless may be a strong word for it, but its hard to justify training in just one area of fighting, when your goal is the street.



You may get jumped every week for the rest of your life and it might never go to the ground. Or you may train in FMA and never once have someone draw a knife/stick on you.

Sure, theres plenty of people who don't ever get into fights at all. Its possible that the only fight you ever get into is the one with the guy who has a gun, or the one with the guy who has six friends.

The point is, if you're training to be competent out there, you want to be as well prepared as is possible. Training in only Wing Chun for 30 years isn't going to give you the skills that will handle how a good percentage of fights go down.

And besides that, how many people wrestled in high school? How many people are taking BJJ and Wrestling right now? Its a hell of a lot more popular than most all other martial arts right now. Especially with the MMA boom, its only going to get more and more popular. You're facing a new generation of tens of thousands of people who have a decent idea of how to work the ground. Its only going to grow, too.



Albeit, i'm a huge advocate for cross training (i.e. bjj, mt, wc, boxing, fma), but each has their own strengths that it can stand on alone.

It gives you tools to do well in certain situations. The more unique tools you have, the better prepared you'll be.



my wing chun covers all aspects of the game, even ground fighting. What you can do standing up can you not take those principles to the ground game? Things like control and dominate the center, dont cross center, maintain control of opponent at all times, i mean your already made contact. Does Chi sau not teach use to use that contact as a bridge to cross and destroy? think about it.

And thats AWESOME, GO YOU! :p

Its true that wing chun principles can translate to the ground game. Just as wing chun principles and concepts can translate into boxing with gloves.

But they're certainly not going to work for you if you don't have a good idea of how to fight on the ground in the first place, using the most common, well known methods. They're common and well known because they WORK.

Just like most people can't box with gloves worth **** unless they know boxing then incorporate the martial arts after the fact.



Why do you have to create so many threads then turn them all onto this obsession?

Obsession with logic :D
How many threads have I created about this?

I'll respond to anything I disagree with - Why? Because I'm begging for someone to come up with a logical, thought-out response as to why i'm wrong on any points.

Thats why we're here on this forum, no? To learn? Argument is great for expanding your knowledge. Unless you'd prefer a giant circle jerk.

Oohh yeah sifu, tell me how well that tan sao works against a hook. Tell me again. Oh yeah.

???



Because without a soapbox his mantra is useless

Absolutely. Cross-training to cover more situations is completely useless. You're a genius, my friend.

I'm sure 20 years of chi sao will give you some amazing ground skills, then you can proceed to show all the MMA champs how its done.

[anerlich]

Why do you have to create so many threads then turn them all onto this obsession?

Adrian, this was directed at Yoshiyahu, not you.

[Phil Redmond]

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;922907]

What does Tan Sau mean besides Palm up block? I am familiar with another term such as dispersing hand...But please share what it is? What does tan mean?

Tan=(your words here)

Sau=(hand)

One of the reasons I studied Cantonese in college was the translation of Tan Sao/Sau as palm up block. Once I was told by a native speaker that Tan means to spread or disperse. I still have no clue as to why even some Chinese Sifus use the term palm up block. There's no way to get palm up block from the Chinese characters for Tan Sao.

[AdrianK]

Adrian, this was directed at Yoshiyahu, not you.

Ah, no problem. My bad.

[Yoshiyahu]

You are right...Chi Sau is already in the clinch you are so right.


One should train against competent MMA guy and work from the clinch to learn to reverse possible take downs and evade them. An also learn how to chi sau from the ground is great too.



Tan sau means spread out arm my wing chun covers all aspects of the game, even ground fighting. What you can do standing up can you not take those principles to the ground game? Things like control and dominate the center, dont cross center, maintain control of opponent at all times, i mean your already made contact. Does Chi sau not teach use to use that contact as a bridge to cross and destroy? think about it.

[Phil Redmond]

You are right...Chi Sau is already in the clinch you are so right.


One should train against competent MMA guy and work from the clinch to learn to reverse possible take downs and evade them. An also learn how to chi sau from the ground is great too.
This isn't aimed at you in particular but what's up with the obsession with MMA fighters?
Since there are no rules nor referees in the street they have just about the same chance of success as any good street fighter.

[Yoshiyahu]

This isn't aimed at you in particular but what's up with the obsession with MMA fighters?
Since there are no rules nor referees in the street they have just about the same chance of success as any good street fighter.

Ah Phil Redmond read the previous post of where they say Wing Chun by itself is usesless. You need to supplement Ground fighting for your WC to work!



AdrianK originally posted: Oohh yeah sifu, tell me how well that tan sao works against a hook. Tell me again. Oh yeah.

Who is the Sifu you are speaking of? Are you talking Sifu PR?(Phillip Redmond).

Personally against a powerful Hook I would use Bil Sau to deflect the force than Tan Sau to disperse my opponents center open. Or I would use Wu Sau to cut into their strike and then Tan Da or Jut Da. Unless your arms are super strong a powerful Hook should collasp your Tan Sau. You have to know the limitations of each technique and adapt. Each Hand are useful against certain types of strikes. Some Hands are better against horizontal attacks. Others are better suited for vertical punches. You have know which one to use!

Would you use a Tan sau against round house kick? or a strong hook? Would someone use a tan sau against a upper cut? lol?

[Phil Redmond]

Ah Phil Redmond read the previous post of where they say Wing Chun by itself is usesless. You need to supplement Ground fighting for your WC to work!
I don't have to read a post to know that any martial art is useless if not trained realistically. And if you train realistically almost any martial art can be made to work. With regards to ground training. I can see if you're training in a gym or competing/fighting in a competition with rules, a mat, and a ref. On concrete, gravel, broken glass, curbs, etc. ground fighting might not be the way to go. One of the Gracies banged up his knee really bad in a street fight trying to go to the ground. With no rules we both can bite, gouge, rip, tear or whatever. I'm not knocking grappling because it's a martial art and I think all martial artists should be familiar with other martial arts. I'm even working with grappling myself but in the street I want to be on my feet so I won't be the victim of a boot party.

[AdrianK]

Who is the Sifu you are speaking of? Are you talking Sifu PR?(Phillip Redmond).

This was a joke, not directed at any sifu.



Personally against a powerful Hook I would use Bil Sau to deflect the force than Tan Sau to disperse my opponents center open. Or I would use Wu Sau to cut into their strike and then Tan Da or Jut Da. Unless your arms are super strong a powerful Hook should collasp your Tan Sau. You have to know the limitations of each technique and adapt. Each Hand are useful against certain types of strikes. Some Hands are better against horizontal attacks. Others are better suited for vertical punches. You have know which one to use!

Are you a TWC guy? What lineage does your sifu come from?



I don't have to read a post to know that any martial art is useless if not trained realistically. And if you train realistically almost any martial art can be made to work.

Depends on what you mean by "made to work". Functional in its context, absolutely. Functional versus all of the common self defense scenarios on the street, is a different story. Improvisation is great, I used to do that when I had no idea how to grapple too. And it worked well against some, and not so well against others. It would've helped ridiculously if instead of being a stubborn *******, I just took a **** grappling class.



With regards to ground training. I can see if you're training in a gym or competing/fighting in a competition with rules, a mat, and a ref. On concrete, gravel, broken glass, curbs, etc. ground fighting might not be the way to go.

Fighting is rough, thats the nature of it, concreate, gravel, broken glass and curbs will hurt but the point is getting out of there safe. Ground fighting may not be the "way to go", but having knowledge of the most common ways of defending and attacking on the ground, is incredibly valuable to anyone looking to get into a street fight. These aren't in the WC curriculum.



One of the Gracies banged up his knee really bad in a street fight trying to go to the ground.

And plenty of gracies did great. There even used to be a group of young guys who went to rickson's a few years back that'd pick fights on a regular basis. As *******-ish as that sounds, they never got seriously injured or killed.



With no rules we both can bite, gouge, rip, tear or whatever.

The thing is, stand-up striking, I can just rush you and claw your eyes out, rip your ears off and run away too. Yeah, thats a problem, but its still really a rare occurrence among guys.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow great job..you really said all there is to be said here great...


I don't have to read a post to know that any martial art is useless if not trained realistically. And if you train realistically almost any martial art can be made to work. With regards to ground training. I can see if you're training in a gym or competing/fighting in a competition with rules, a mat, and a ref. On concrete, gravel, broken glass, curbs, etc. ground fighting might not be the way to go. One of the Gracies banged up his knee really bad in a street fight trying to go to the ground. With no rules we both can bite, gouge, rip, tear or whatever. I'm not knocking grappling because it's a martial art and I think all martial artists should be familiar with other martial arts. I'm even working with grappling myself but in the street I want to be on my feet so I won't be the victim of a boot party.



No my Sifu lineage is Yuen Kay San. He also taught me a little Tiger and Crane when I learning the WC. Very little tiger and crane though. Just a form and a few drills. and stance work!

Now he is teaching me Tai Chi, Bagua and Wudang Sword. Along with polishing up my WC from time to time!



This was a joke, not directed at any sifu.




Are you a TWC guy? What lineage does your sifu come from?




Depends on what you mean by "made to work". Functional in its context, absolutely. Functional versus all of the common self defense scenarios on the street, is a different story. Improvisation is great, I used to do that when I had no idea how to grapple too. And it worked well against some, and not so well against others. It would've helped ridiculously if instead of being a stubborn *******, I just took a **** grappling class.




Fighting is rough, thats the nature of it, concreate, gravel, broken glass and curbs will hurt but the point is getting out of there safe. Ground fighting may not be the "way to go", but having knowledge of the most common ways of defending and attacking on the ground, is incredibly valuable to anyone looking to get into a street fight. These aren't in the WC curriculum.




And plenty of gracies did great. There even used to be a group of young guys who went to rickson's a few years back that'd pick fights on a regular basis. As *******-ish as that sounds, they never got seriously injured or killed.




The thing is, stand-up striking, I can just rush you and claw your eyes out, rip your ears off and run away too. Yeah, thats a problem, but its still really a rare occurrence among guys.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing Chun is not useless on its own, you are. If someone squares off against you, Wing Chun will not cover your @ss, you have to.

So you believe not being a multi-dimensional fighter is a better approach to emerging victorious in a fight?

If Yip Man was 40 years old and alive today, what makes you think he wouldn't have trained himself to be a MMA fighter? Martial artists train to meet the demands of the world they live in.

That's just crazy talk !
:D

[dnovice]

Martial artists train to meet the demands of the world they live in.

Very good point man.

[Yoshiyahu]

That's just crazy talk !
:D

why is it just crazy talk?