The role of traditional hierarchies in kung fu schools..what's the fuking point

[SavvySavage]

I'll tell you what the point is!

This is my understanding of the reason why there's a hierarchy in traditional kung fu schools. Let's look at the basic model from top to bottom:

Sifu, dai see hing, see hing, welp.

Ideally the sifu would only teach the dai see hing and the dai see hing teach the see hing. This system is put into place so that the older, more experienced, guide the younger at differing levels of development. Technically you are always younger and there is always an older unless the sifu's teacher is dead or too far away.

My sifu told me that if I needed to correct another instructor that I make sure not to do this in front of the younger students. He didn't explain why which is also the way of tradition. Sifu says. Know what I'm saying? Anyway. I was in a seminar once. There was a main teacher and two helpers. The main dude asked one of the helpers to demonstrate in front of the whole class and while she was doing this the main dude blurted out, "No, no. You're doing it all wrong. I guess I'm going to have to step in." I felt really bad for the chick and thought the main dude was a d!ck. The rest of the class, based on that incident, thought that the helper chick was a moron and wasn't worth listening to. These older brother traditions are put into place to teach people MANNERS because let's face it...America is short on such things. I've seen brand new students start spouting off their fighting philosophies or show what they would do in a situation though it had nothing to do with what was happening in the class. Older new students tend to be like this which is why educators in martial art schools and other schools don't like to teach grown ups. They are cranky, convinced they know the subject already or better, and don't like to be told what to do. You know what? Fuk older new students. Fuk you really hard! LOL. Seriously though, why are you older new students like this?

In my own school I've seen instructors get into open arguments about forms and even correct each other in front of new students. This needs to be remedied in traditional schools if students are going to take the instructors seriously. Here comes my, "I don't" rant. I don't believe that arrogance is the best way to go about this though. I don't believe that new students should be made to feel like they owe something to teachers or older students. I don't believe that a system of making students feel like they're a tadpole is helpful unless a cranky older student needs to be taught his place.

In the martial arts school there should be a general respect that is to be echoed in the real world. When you meet someone you smile, look into their eyes, and shake his or her hand. You shake with a firm grip and not that soft crap like girls shake. Or you say hi to the whole class in a respectful way if the class is really full. This is the kind of respect that should be cultivated in a martial arts school and in any relationship. What I've experienced(not necessarily in my own school) is that the olders expected a military like respect from the youngers. "I say, you do!" kind of mentality. I've seen instructors berate students for not practicing after a "touching hands" session when the reality could've been that the newer student was being respectful to his senior and not trying his hardest. In this kind of a situation it seems the traditional hierarchy is used to make newer students feel lowly, cow tow, and then not try as hard when touching hands with older students. This is a disrespectful way of being and a bad way of mentally conditioning students.

Perhaps this way of utilizing the hierarchy was to protect against disrepectful students. That's definitely tangible because there are people out there that can and will act like d!ks in the school purposely trying to embarrass someone. Students like this should be weeded out in their first few months. These students and seniors do not make for a good learning environment.


Does this hierarchy system get abused or used to cultivate manners and respect in all of your schools?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The teacher - senior - junior system is present in every MA that I know of.
Even in modern sports you have the Head coach- coach- asst coaches and what not.
It just makes thing ssimplier and more effective for all.
And yes, only a D1Ck would correct one of his assistents in public like that, heck YOU choose the assistent and if he/she makes a mistake, its as much your fault as theirs.

[bawang]

hierarchy makes cult environment
if people spar and fight they automatically know their place
respect in wulin is not based on politeness its based on fear
best comparison is to the mafia

[sanjuro_ronin]

hierarchy makes cult environment
if people spar and fight they automatically know their place
respect in wulin is not based on politeness its based on fear

The best teacher is not always the best fighter, that's like saying the gym the lifts the most in the gym is the best Strength coach.
Nothing is based on fear, other than ignorance.

[SavvySavage]

You can't expect an ancient old sifu to spar his 20 year old students. Then none of them would have respect for him according to your statment

[bawang]

The best teacher is not always the best fighter, that's like saying the gym the lifts the most in the gym is the best Strength coach.
Nothing is based on fear, other than ignorance.

you are talking about modern times, everyone knows the best way to do everything, its all about motivating your student motivating your customer, in old day people motivate themselves, the best fighters often had th best training methods, thats why you hear about "super duper secret raining methods"

You can't expect an ancient old sifu to spar his 20 year old students. Then none of them would have respect for him according to your statment

im saying he should have been good fighter some time in his life , rite

im wasnt talking about sifu in the first place man, i was saying if the students fight and spar more oftens, maybe there would be less of those dooshebaggas you were talking about in your post, man


Its based on respect, not fear. You need to read more sun tzu and less makiaveli.

My best friends are the people who have beat me down and who I have beaten down in return.

i am talking about traditional kung fu culture
it hsa always been about fear because respect= fear
in army you drill wrong make too many mistakes you are executed by the general
in the green forest if your skill not good and you run into big loot, your friend kills you and takes the money all for himself
you take someone's performance spot and medicine selling spot, he comes with friends and tie you up and kil you

[Exadon]

a best teacher not always best fighter thats true, but bad fighter always bad teachers

Unless they teach math

[sanjuro_ronin]

a best teacher not always best fighter thats true, but bad fighter always bad teachers


im saying he should have been good fighter some time in his life , rite

im wasnt talking about sifu in the first place man, i was saying if the students fight and spar more oftens, maybe there would be less of those dooshebaggas you were talking about in your post, man

It depends on what you wanna learn, I knew a guy that was not a very good fighter but had an encylopedic knowledge of forms.

[bawang]

It depends on what you wanna learn, I knew a guy that was not a very good fighter but had an encylopedic knowledge of forms.

i thought we were talking about traditional kung fu because thread said traditional hierarchy
form learning form collecting, dont know if that is traditional

[SavvySavage]

I'm not sure if traditional means male macho bullsh!t. CAuse that's what it seems like you're talking about, bawang. Disrespectful students are the ones who only want to learn from those that can manhandle them in a fight. What kind of attitude is this?

Mutual respect is my ideal way to run a school but...I've found that it doesn't last long in some students. Still, I'm an idealist

[bawang]

hi savvy, yes i think traditional means male macho, i dont htink its bullsh1t

[SavvySavage]

I think traditional meant that in some schools at certain times in their development. Some teachers are still like that today and I understand to a certain extent why. Traditional teachers didn't answer students' questions for a few reasons(not all of them all the time): 1. They didn't know the answer. 2. They didn't want to tell. 3. They were in a bad mood. 4. MOST IMPORTANTLY, the best teacher is doing and asking is not doing. I think traditional teachers don't answer questions sometimes due to different combinations of the above

[bawang]

hi savvy, i dont understand what you mean, i dont think not answering questions is macho, i think sparring and fighting can correct the douchebags yo usaid in your post, because most big mouths dont fight good, but stay longer than new studant so look down o thems

i think military style helps motivate people, but yes it can discourage some other people


there is a saying "lei tai is covered with blood and tears" and "performing blood opera for stale yellow rice"
there was a time when looking at a kung fu guy wrong can get you kiled
sort of reminds me of wiggers listening to gangsta rap, doesnt make them gangsters



yes there is a lot of ego and people liek to show off, but hierchy doesnt stop that, only mutual respect and fear a asswhipings
i liek to tell pepoples i dont know anyhting

[David Jamieson]

oh hey, here's a thought....grow up! lol

all social constructs function with a heirarchy except for a group of peers.

when you enter into any "school" you know nothing of that school or what they offer and ergo, you are low man on the totem. any school.

if you go to a school and you already know everything, well why are you there?

you don't undermine someone else in the heirarchy because of the psychology of the situation.

Heirarchical order is maintained for the youngest of minds. It is necessary.

It is known that if you want to be a leader, you have to learn how to follow first. How can you expect people to follow you if you don't know how to do what they are doing? If you can't share the experience of rising up, then you don't have anything in common with the rest of the heirarchy and you will be rejected or will have to put in many times more the effort to have people even pay attention to you whether what you have to offer is good or not.

It can be troublesome, but that is because of self absorption, overswollen ego and so on.

If you can't bend a knee to listen, then you don't deserve to be told.

That's life. Don't like it? Walk alone and see how far that takes you. :)

[Drake]

You need a chain of command, or else people forget their place. They end up wanting to teach the teacher, or going over peoples' heads because they don't understand the system. If you are a beginner, you are a beginner, and your purpose is to learn from the more experienced above you. You aren't on the same level as them, as much as you'd like to be, and you certainly are not in a position to make demands.

When you eventually become a teacher yourself, you will want people to behave according to their rank, as it makes the school MUCH more manageable, and you don't lose credibility because all of the students think they are equal. They aren't. That's reality. As a beginner, you will eventually have your time in the spotlight, but it isn't now.

As for chastising subordinates in public, that is wrong. It demeans the authority of those you've placed in charge, and makes their jobs more difficult to accomplish. It also causes them to lose respect for you. The rule is, praise in public, criticize in private. You pull the trainer in after it's over, and go over where they made mistakes, and set up a plan to ensure it doesn't happen again.

This is Leadership 101, folks.

[lkfmdc]

All asian Martial arts are products of their cultures, and those cultures are very influenced by Confucian familial structures. In the case of TCMA the need for acceptance from the general population lead to an over the top embracing of that structure

[iron_silk]

Actually the beautiful thing about the Chinese traditional hierachies is in name.

The relationship established between Older and younger Martial brother or sister sets when they arrive into the school and NOT their ability or skill level.

Unlike ranking which you can move up or down depending on your ability, because your older martial brother will always be there before regardless of your ability surpassing them or not. (Unless they leave the school then that's a different issue)

With the modern way of testing and geting coloured belt or sash...that's about ability and you can be white or yellow for YEARS...unlike you get the material.

It's really a family thing...NOT a ranking thing.

At least that's how I see it.

[Lucas]

Actually the beautiful thing about the Chinese traditional hierachies is in name.

The relationship established between Older and younger Martial brother or sister sets when they arrive into the school and NOT their ability or skill level.

Unlike ranking which you can move up or down depending on your ability, because your older martial brother will always be there before regardless of your ability surpassing them or not. (Unless they leave the school then that's a different issue)

With the modern way of testing and geting coloured belt or sash...that's about ability and you can be white or yellow for YEARS...unlike you get the material.

It's really a family thing...NOT a ranking thing.

At least that's how I see it.

I agree, this hierarchies werent developed with the modernization of martial arts training, globally. they were developed to be used in the culture and environment that they prooved usefull in.

similarly, we could not expect many asian cultures to adopt or fully understand the way many westerners handle their family affairs.

[Violent Designs]

This is something that maybe people grow up in Western society do not understand?

Confucian value are very important, in Chinese martial art, I think., ..

[Lucas]

This is something that maybe people grow up in Western society do not understand?

Confucian value are very important, in Chinese martial art, I think., ..

definately.

not all westerners understand or desire to understand or grasp the way many family values and practices are carried over into the martial arts training.

its like, when we do martial arts, for some, it is a way of life. it carries over into all other aspects of our life man times. as such for people like this, its only natural for the reverse to be the case as well. life will enter into your martial arts. especially if you are practicing with family. such as family styles.

[David Jamieson]

This is something that maybe people grow up in Western society do not understand?

Confucian value are very important, in Chinese martial art, I think., ..

the very idea of "western" society in this global village is skewed.

this ain't the 60's man, if I wanna talk to my pal in shanghai, i can and we like a lot of teh same things and have a lot of teh same values.

In other words, east met west a long time ago.

Having said that, everybody everywhere "gets" the idea of extended families, the value of heirarchical structures in a learning environment and so on.

Besides semantics, there isn't a huge difference between cultures, filial associations and so on. different ways of doing the same thing.

[Lucas]

I have certainly met, and still do, many people who are very un knowledgable of the way many asian families work. let alone martial arts families.

case in point, pretty much most the people i work with.


thats not to say, that a lot of people dont 'get it' because many do.

its more of a case that these same types of people dont 'get it' in regards to othe cultures habits in general.

some people dont go beyond their own yards.

[Eric Olson]

Isn't the point of martial arts to gain control over other people? Seems like the hierarchical structure fits right in to that mindset.

EO

[Lucas]

Isn't the point of martial arts to gain control over other people? Seems like the hierarchical structure fits right in to that mindset.

EO

lol, good one :D

[David Jamieson]

Isn't the point of martial arts to gain control over other people? Seems like the hierarchical structure fits right in to that mindset.

EO

no, that is not the point of martial arts at all.

as in:

"strength is control of others, power is control of the self" ~ Sun Tzu

what is kungfu?

I don't seek control over others.

[Lucas]

So am I still a control freak if I want supreme control over myself?

[David Jamieson]

So am I still a control freak if I want supreme control over myself?

yes, in one form or one manifestation.

To desire control is still desire and you won't gain power through it.

Not in a real sense anyway.

[SanHeChuan]

CMA hierarchy is about seniority not skill.
You could be the worst in the class and still be an older kung fu brother.
It's about treating people with respect, in both directions, like family.
CMA is less military that other styles.

[David Jamieson]

CMA hierarchy is about seniority not skill.
You could be the worst in the class and still be an older kung fu brother.
It's about treating people with respect, in both directions, like family.
CMA is less military that other styles.

depends on where you got yer kungfu from.

there are very military styles that prescribe to military type heirarchies.

then there is the family styles that incorporate the filial piety.

then there are the bas-tard versions of these that pretend to be filial, but only pay that lip service and hold up a charade so people feel like they are doing something special and different etc etc.

heirarchical structure is always about respect up and down within that heirarchy.
outside of the heirarchy, it's meaningless. IE: hippy don't like no soja, soja don't like no taliban. :p

[Lucas]

yes, in one form or one manifestation.

To desire control is still desire and you won't gain power through it.

Not in a real sense anyway.

its a darn good thing i have a bionic power suit then. :D

[Lokhopkuen]

A funny little thing I have seen in Chinese martial art is you have the various Si-Hings in the school and then the Chinese Si-Hings which by some unspoken rule supersede the non-Chinese seniors. Sadly I have seen this at work in more than one school. One explanation I heard was "I'm more comfortable with Chinese people than foreigners."
Vomit....

[Violent Designs]

the very idea of "western" society in this global village is skewed.

this ain't the 60's man, if I wanna talk to my pal in shanghai, i can and we like a lot of teh same things and have a lot of teh same values.

In other words, east met west a long time ago.

Having said that, everybody everywhere "gets" the idea of extended families, the value of heirarchical structures in a learning environment and so on.

Besides semantics, there isn't a huge difference between cultures, filial associations and so on. different ways of doing the same thing.

That is true.

But I take the idea of piety and respect very seriously. When my shifu ask me to do something, I will do it even if I think its boring or tedious.

If for example, my shifu is a bad fighter or doesn't teach me what I want, then I just leave the school, don't associate half-assed with people you cannot respect to begin with.

But those, real legit teachers of martial art, Eastern teachers in particular or should I say Chinese, usually demand a degree of respect and piety from the student, or better yet disciple.

Its just the nature of my culture and how I was raised and grew up. Sure I understand the nature of a more "free" or "formless" structure, no hierarchy, no seniority, etc, but as a Chinese I DO NOT WANT THAT. Not in my "formal" school anyway.

In my outside training group, we have no hierarchy. But it is not a formal thing.

And to be honest, I will treat older people with more respect and formality, and younger people with less formality, in most cases.

[notanexit]

hierarchy makes cult environment
if people spar and fight they automatically know their place
respect in wulin is not based on politeness its based on fear
best comparison is to the mafia
100% correct.I was once in a kung fu cult.There were a bunch of high ranked students that talked a good game.But when they sparred they were horrible.The teacher kept the sparring class closed for this reason.

Its based on respect, not fear. You need to read more sun tzu and less makiaveli.
And you need to fight more instead of reading about it.It would be cool if you actually EARNED that respect instead of walking around the school like some hotshot.Why did you delete your posts on the mantis forum?....I know you're one of Cottrell's brownnosing butt zombies.That's why you're hiding your identity like a scared little *****.


[QUOTE]im saying he should have been good fighter some time in his life , rite
Rite.

im wasnt talking about sifu in the first place man, i was saying if the students fight and spar more oftens, maybe there would be less of those dooshebaggas you were talking about in your post, man
True,but in the school I used to attend,there was a sparring class.Many of the advanced students were exposed as frauds,they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.After about 4-5 classes,the teacher ended the class.He didn't want his pets to feel bad.But of course he never sparred in the class himself.He had to maintain his invincible "sifu" aura.That school is very cultish.Glad I'm no longer there.

[Shaolinlueb]

i am not a family guy. i love my family, but i hate spending time with them.

my martial arts family, took me a while to adjust to the discipline, but i like hanging out with my martial arts family more then my regular family.

[notanexit]

Cottrell's brownnosing butt zombie? I've only seen the guy in person once in my life, and I didn't even talk to him, he lives in a different state than me. Get your web fu up to snuff. I couldn't give half a **** about the guy. I just got tired of your incessant *****ing. Does your ***** hurt that bad? Here we have yet another thread that has nothing to do with cottrell or mantis, or you, and yet you have brought your bull**** into it once again.

Seriously, get over it and go eat a dick.

You still did not answer me.Why did you delete your posts on the mantis forum?WHY are you hiding you identity?You joined this forum 4 years ago and you did not post one time until a bashed your leader.This thread does have something to do with him and mantis.He uses this hierarchy structure to use and control students.I put my location and email address on my username so people like you that want me to get over it,tired of my incessant *****ing can do something about it.Neither you or cottrell has stepped up to the plate.And neither of you will.I think that makes you the Pu$$y.

[Violent Designs]

Woooo two internet warriors going at it.

*popcorn*

[Lucas]

Heat- intensity of training
Metal- The students intrinsic worth and willpower
mold/container- school heirarchy, philosophy and curriculum structure
hammer- Teacher
Wood for fire- knowledge


As ones skills grow, the metal is folded and the basics revisited through careful pounding and tempering. The best swords have 100s of folds.


Plenty of tinfoil warriors claiming a forge and heat aren't neccesary, and they bend to any fad and their skills do not endure.

In my school, seniority makes then shi xiong, however, if your rank raises above theirs you become the shi xiong. Its about knowledge and service to others. The higher up you go in our system, the more you give to others.

Heirarchy does not make a cult. Idolatry does. As long as the teacher guides the students in finding their own answers, they remain the servant of the students and not their idol.


www.imperialtao.com

great post

[David Jamieson]

guys, please.

we don't give a **** about your quarrel.

:p

[iron_silk]

I really like the example given of a child and parent.

Most of the people are all about I can kick his butt so screw'm

1) If somehow the instructor prefered his Chinese students over a non-Chinese one could be b/c the non-Chinese wasn't that great but the non-Chinese student made it into a racial issue (so obvious) ... or the instructor is a little racist. (shocking huh?)

2) If your Si-Hing is walking around like he's king but he's got no skill then...he's just a big fat IDIOT! Nothing to do with hierarchies in kung fu school.

Or maybe si-hing can fight a little sometime and just want to help out by giving advice BUT you're a little too proud of yourself to like it so you laugh your butt off when he gets his handed to him - you seem like a type better off on your own since you can't seem to get over it.

Hierarchies is just the way they are...like a family someone's got to come first...back then they almost lived together like a family. It wasn't about who can kick's who's ass...or who want's recognition (I'm not saying it didn't happen I'm just saying that's not the point of the structure).

If you got the skills then that's it.

It doesn't matter what's your name or the colour around your waist.

My intructor has a Chinese saying that I'm not sure I can translate properly but I'll give it a go "there's not difference in who came before or after...it's who achieve mastery that's important"

[Lucas]

there is absolutely nothing wrong with having respect for someone higher up on the ladder than yourself, even if you could beat them 10 out of 10 times.

in a healthy environment, this is just respect for the natural order of the way things have developed. as a teacher ages and his students do as well, eventually the pupil will be able to defeat the master. thats the goal. at the point that you can defeat your master do you lose your respect? or do you gain a whole new level for what this person has given you.

the same goes for your elder brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts. in a healthy environment.

your brothers are there to help you grow and mature and develop as a martial artists, and you are there to supply that same support to your younger siblings.

the only time there is a problem with this order is when the environment itself is in disorder and there is no harmony amongst the family.

[Lucas]

well said.

[notanexit]

Heirarchy does not make a cult. Idolatry does. As long as the teacher guides the students in finding their own answers, they remain the servant of the students and not their idol.
www.imperialtao.com

Very true.However the idol(usually the sifu)uses the heirarchy structure to accomplish his goal.My former teacher did not guide me in finding my own answers.Thats because he had all the answers.If I asked about another art he either knew the art or it sucked.He kept me from growing as a martial artist.But in the last couple years and getting away from that cult,I have grown a lot.You are correct about the teacher serving the students.On the outside the heirarchy structure seems good,but once you join,it can turn into a cult.

[golden arhat]

As ones skills grow, the metal is folded and the basics revisited through careful pounding and tempering. The best swords have 100s of folds.




i think i read somewhere about too many folds making a sword weaker maybe that can fit into your analogy

i'd also like to point out that your average ak is much more simple trhan a sword and does the job a whole lot better :p