China in the 21st century

[SimonM]

Here is a few hard truths about China in the 21st century:

1) The only thing communist about China is the name of the ruling party.

That's right. China long since shed any semblance of socialism or communism. It is, in fact, very nearly a state run as a corporation. The best way of describing China is as a Totalitarian Capitalist state.

2) The CCP is not going anywhere.

Unless this depression stretches into a decade long affair the CCP isn't about to be overthrown or to stand aside. It is, in fact, stronger today than it was twenty years ago. There is really no actual pressure applied by other nations against the totalitarianism of the CCP. They can't apply the pressure to China because they depend on China to be the world's factory; low labour standards and poor environmental regulations are all that have allowed Capitalism to continue to function.

[TAO YIN]

I thought China liked capitalism?:confused:

[SimonM]

I thought China liked capitalism?:confused:

That's sort of my point.

[TAO YIN]

:)Quick. Wonder if ever the West will be a factory for the East? Eventually maybe they are going to want to buy mass produced cheap shiit at wholesale too. You know? Don't know how they could buy it any cheaper but.:D

[BoulderDawg]

Call the government whatever you like.

Fact is China is one F'd up place with severe human rights abuses. It's a place where you can't breathe the air or drink the water. It's also a place where you die if you protest.

[TAO YIN]

Am I dead?:confused:

[bawang]

you would know :confused:

[Exadon]

It's a place where you can't breathe the air or drink the water. It's also a place where you die if you protest.

****, people are still alive there and they can't braethe? crazy

[SimonM]

Actually, with regards to the air, Bolderdawg isn't far off. Respiratory illness is freaking common over there.

However protesters don't usually die. There is a battery of bad things that happen to them but execution isn't one.

Being drugged up and jammed into a mental hospital... that might happen.
Getting roughed up a bit and hurried off the street... common.
Getting killed... rare.

[BoulderDawg]

Am I dead?:confused:


Do this,

go back to Tiananmen Square and start protesting human rights there and see how long you last......especially if you're a leader of a group of protesters.

or

Go to any factory in China, pick one (doesn't matter) and start talking with the workers and protesting working condititions....see how long you last.

[TAO YIN]

:D So now you specify. You said protesters. Not protesters at T Square, or at factories. The Square is a bit much for me. As for factories, nah. Consulted for a few before. Talking to Big Bosses, or bosses, everywhere, sucks. I prefer watching paint dry.

The cool thing about the air there is that one constantly has a reason to hock and snot up a nasty greeny.

[bawang]

i agree situation in china is a problem
but i think for poor people, in america is more sad
in china many people poor and got problems thats life
but in america poor people see the super rich everyday walk by them ,and see how their life could have been seeing all those rich things dangled in front of them but just out of reach

[BoulderDawg]

:D So now you specify. You said protesters. Not protesters at T Square, or at factories. The Square is a bit much for me. As for factories, nah. Consulted for a few before. Talking to Big Bosses, or bosses, everywhere, sucks. I prefer watching paint dry.

The cool thing about the air there is that one constantly has a reason to hock and snot up a nasty greeny.

Go anywhere and stage a public protest against the government. Doesn't matter.

I guess the only thing that probably would not get you in trouble would be protesting a new MacDonald's opening.

[bawang]

why dont you go wave a eeslam flag at new york memorial and shout all hu akba
see how long u live

before telling people about wood speck in their eye pull the plank out of your ass
u better wipe your mouth with some tiolet paper with all those diarhea spewing out your mouth
boulderbich

[SimonM]

i agree situation in china is a problem
but i think for poor people, in america is more sad
in china many people poor and got problems thats life
but in america poor people see the super rich everyday walk by them ,and see how their life could have been seeing all those rich things dangled in front of them but just out of reach

It's the same in China now Bawang.

I've seen the up-market shopping districts in Beijing, Hangzhou, Taiyuan. And I've seen the poor who live elbow-to-elbow with the rich people who shop in those shrines to the almighty yuan.

And bolderdawg I would like to reiterate: the Chinese government does not make a policy of killing protesters. The closest you get to that sort of thing in this day and age is when private factory owners kill journalists to cover up their misconduct.

That DOES happen.

But not with government sanction.

Other than that the stories of killed protestors are either regurgitated 20 year old stories of T-Square or they are the daffy lies of cultic religious zealots who prey on western sympathy with apocryphal tales of repression.

[bawang]

i was walking down a crowded shopping center road in halifax, cool hip people walking everywhere laughing, and a guy in tatters standing in a corner, eyes wide staring out at nothing singing gibberish while everyone just walked by like hes not there
i remember it to this day

there are much more poor peopl ein china but the contrast between poor and rich in north america disturbs me much more

i didnt know i was poor in china, i was jsut living my life. when i came to canada i KNEW i was poor
and knowing makes all the difference

yeah i know simon its happening in the big cities too but at least people in the countryside can still pretend

[TAO YIN]

Rioting anywhere en mass, is not a great idea. People dying from it is not just a China thing.

[Lucas]

the US has definately had its fair share of oppression and overly aggresive law enforcement cases.

well, there are cases here in the US where police have shot/beaten and killed people for LESS than protesting.

[Lucas]

why, just last year a police officer beat and killed a homeless man by caving his ribs in, because he was simply 'non compliant'

although he was not violent.

[SimonM]

In Canada it's sadly semi-common practice for police in the prairie provinces to round up aboriginal men in the winter and drive them out into the middle of the sticks without proper winter clothing and then drop them off.

And that's guys who are literally doing nothing.

So, yes, attrocities and abuses of power happen everywhere, even in the bastions of 'freedom'. But I think nobody would deny that China is a totalitarian state at the moment.

My point (and Bawang's for that matter) is that life in a totalitarian state isn't actually THAT different from life in a 'free' state. And not because of some secret consipiracy. Rather because even totalitarian states really can't be bothered regulating every aspect of an ordinary person's life.

The #1 word I'd use to describe China's government is this: Pragmatic.

And it does not benefit them to massacre protesters. It's so much easier to keep them quiet and alive.

[bawang]

when i was a kid in elementary school in china i was told the world is china and the world is perfect
then junior high comes and suddenly im pushed into the cold real world
i prefer the lie than the truth i was much happier, now for many people there is no meaning of life, theres no point to live

now the devil comes and reveals to us communism is wrong there is no good no evil only money no gods no godesses no meaning nothing void
and how do u feel, when the devil is right

[SimonM]

now big diccked america comes and reveals to us communism is wrong there is no good no evil only money no gods no godesses no meaning nothing void
and even worse they are right

Have I mentioned how much I despise Deng Xiaoping lately?

[TAO YIN]

I got half beaten by a copper last year for asking if there was a store around town where I could buy American made toys.

[bawang]

Have I mentioned how much I despise Deng Xiaoping lately?

i hate him too lol
if only he is alive and see what he caused

[SimonM]

ROTFL!

I bet the police officer thought you were a crazy person.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In Canada it's sadly semi-common practice for police in the prairie provinces to round up aboriginal men in the winter and drive them out into the middle of the sticks without proper winter clothing and then drop them off.

And that's guys who are literally doing nothing.

So, yes, attrocities and abuses of power happen everywhere, even in the bastions of 'freedom'. But I think nobody would deny that China is a totalitarian state at the moment.

My point (and Bawang's for that matter) is that life in a totalitarian state isn't actually THAT different from life in a 'free' state. And not because of some secret consipiracy. Rather because even totalitarian states really can't be bothered regulating every aspect of an ordinary person's life.

The #1 word I'd use to describe China's government is this: Pragmatic.

And it does not benefit them to massacre protesters. It's so much easier to keep them quiet and alive.

We killed our share of protesters.
We've also maced them, beat them and tazed them.

[TAO YIN]

You bet, he was angry too. Drug me off in the paddy yelling, "FAO Schwartz is in New York City, and even there's mostly toys from India!" screeched to hault in front of a Toys-R-Us, then dumped me out into a full milk crate. :eek:

[SimonM]

We killed our share of protesters.
We've also maced them, beat them and tazed them.

Don't forget tear gas.

That stuff stings.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't forget tear gas.

That stuff stings.

Poor baby !
did the big bad man make your eyes sting?
Boo Hoo !
:p

[SimonM]

Eyes sting yes.

But what that crap does to your lungs is worse.

[Kansuke]

Do this,

go back to Tiananmen Square and start protesting human rights there and see how long you last......especially if you're a leader of a group of protesters.

or

Go to any factory in China, pick one (doesn't matter) and start talking with the workers and protesting working condititions....see how long you last.



Have YOU ever gone to China and done anything, or are you talking out your ass again?

[Eddie]

Have I mentioned how much I despise Deng Xiaoping lately?


Why? What am I missing? Deng Xiaoping is largely credited for opening up China. Why hate him?

The coin always have two sides. Im eager to hear your views.

This same tropic came up in an English corner the other day, and the group was divided, yet no one could actually give any reasons for why they believe anything. The same as most Chinese people (well in Wuhan that is), will hate Japanese but cant really tell you exactly why (other than the siege of Wuhan).

This topic is really interesting. I hope we can have a mature discussion without getting people spoiling this again.

[Violent Designs]

Call the government whatever you like.

Fact is China is one F'd up place with severe human rights abuses. It's a place where you can't breathe the air or drink the water. It's also a place where you die if you protest.

Way to talk out of your ****ing mouth you uneducated, biased mother****er who's never stepped foot in China once in your worthless life.

[Eddie]

Way to talk out of your ****ing mouth you uneducated, biased mother****er who's never stepped foot in China once in your worthless life.

we have a shot at a real mature topic. This type of counter attack VD, can only de-rail the whole thread again. Take it easy, I know what you mean tho. :cool:

[Violent Designs]

we have a shot at a real mature topic. This type of counter attack VD, can only de-rail the whole thread again. Take it easy, I know what you mean tho. :cool:

I'm having a bad day today. :mad:

My roomate owes me money, and I'm hungry.

Then I read this guy's idiotic comments, like he's being the mouthpiece of BBC news or CNN here in the US.

[Kansuke]

Way to talk out of your ****ing mouth you uneducated, biased mother****er who's never stepped foot in China once in your worthless life.



Excellent post! And would 'Captain Let's Be Nice!' give it a rest?

[Violent Designs]

Excellent post! And would 'Captain Let's Be Nice!' give it a rest?

I don't like to "censor" what I would say. Its the way I talk, this isn't my university debate class.

[lkfmdc]

Why? What am I missing? Deng Xiaoping is largely credited for opening up China. Why hate him?



I could write a book on Deng, but don't have the time right now, but I'll try and get back to it

[Eddie]

maybe one day if you have time, just give me a few basic points?

[Eddie]

Excellent post! And would 'Captain Let's Be Nice!' give it a rest?


captain lets be nice is just trying to have meaningful conversations on this forum. The constant interference from all the trolls and people who speaks without knowing is annoying. I did not sat that I didn’t agree with VD, just with the way in which he said it. This topic will end up like all of them, where people call each other names for 35 pages and eventually it gets locked with no real substance other than “ your mamma’s so fat posts”

[BoulderDawg]

Way to talk out of your ****ing mouth you uneducated, biased mother****er who's never stepped foot in China once in your worthless life.


Then why don't you go and live there if you think it's so great.

By the way, you think you're hungry now..........:D

[Kansuke]

captain lets be nice is just trying to have meaningful conversations on this forum. The constant interference from all the trolls and people who speaks without knowing is annoying. I did not sat that I didn’t agree with VD, just with the way in which he said it. This topic will end up like all of them, where people call each other names for 35 pages and eventually it gets locked with no real substance other than “ your mamma’s so fat posts”



Trying to play Hall Monitor is also annoying, and ultimately futile anyway.

[Kansuke]

Then why don't you go and live there if you think it's so great.

By the way, you think you're hungry now..........:D




Have you EVER been there, mouthy?

[bawang]

maybe one day if you have time, just give me a few basic points?

in my personal opinion, den xiao ping focus only on economic restoration, but no spiritual and cultural restoration. this left a cultural and moral vaccum

communism took a lot away chinese culture and religion and morals, suddenly it is (silently) abolished and people have no purpose or cause to look to, no meaning in life, mostly just making money and buying houses and buying wives, there is this big hole

then the older generation wonder why many are willing to believe in cults, or are turning into drugs or promiscuouity

when i found out my childhood friend, memories of perfect innocent litle communist cadres playing in green garden under bright sun, singing praises to chair man maaoo , she went to germany university and turned into a sluut, something inside me die a little. i think what happened to her symbolizes what happened to china

every day i ask mysel why, above me i feel the spirits fly

[Violent Designs]

Then why don't you go and live there if you think it's so great.

By the way, you think you're hungry now..........:D

大哥，我是在哪儿长大的。 。 。哈哈

Translate:

Bro, I grew up/born there.

Most of my life , actually.

[bawang]

哪个boulderdog是个小表子,我热他奶奶,捣他娘的肠子

[Violent Designs]

哪个boulderdog是个小表子,我热他奶奶,捣他娘的肠子

哈哈，说对了。

他逼是傻逼的 ！

大哥，你是哪里人？

[bawang]

老爷是从泰州省李庄来地，江苏省扬州也住过几年个. you?
在扬州跟我嗲朋友学过无名长拳，到加拿大学了点太极拳，六七来年练了就十多招，双风灌耳，钉心火，单刀杀鸭 ，架打，, etc,etc
铁身拍打功，拔树功，拍拍铁沙袋, 一点气功

[Violent Designs]

我是沈阳，辽宁省的。

蔡李佛在我手里变成了北方拳了，哈哈。

东北没有人，只有虎。:cool:

[bawang]

i think if it was 20 years ago , yeah people were pretty politicized and even blainwashed, but times are changing and today its all about the dollar bills, buying houses, partying at clubs. i myself dont think thats a good thing, but westerner observers should feel very happy, things are much more open now believe or not

i remember my village they sold their farms to build big houses and worked in factories, i wanted to punch them in face, they sold land that had been ours for hundreds of years, for money, for greed, gone, forever
but i miss the dirty market place, the peddlers, i miss the poverty i miss the spirit people had back then.

[Violent Designs]

i think if it was 20 years ago , yeah people were pretty politicized and even blainwashed, but times are changing and today its all about the dollar bills, buying houses, partying at clubs. I myself dont think thats a good thing, but westerner observers should feel very happy, things are much more open now believe or not

i remember my village they sold their farms to build big houses and worked in factories, i wanted to punch them in face, they sold land that had been ours for hundreds of years, for money, for greed, gone, forever
but i miss the dirty market place, the peddlers, i miss the poverty i miss the spirit people had back then.

老骨头都死了。 。 。

[bawang]

the nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! :(

[Violent Designs]

the nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! :(

挺肏的 。

[Gru Bianca]

in my personal opinion, den xiao ping focus only on economic restoration, but no spiritual and cultural restoration. This left a cultural and moral vaccum

communism took a lot away chinese culture and religion and morals, suddenly it is (silently) abolished and people have no purpose or cause to look to, no meaning in life, mostly just making money and buying houses and buying wives, there is this big hole

then the older generation wonder why many are willing to believe in cults, or are turning into drugs or promiscuouity

when i found out my childhood friend, memories of perfect innocent litle communist cadres playing in green garden under bright sun, singing praises to chair man maaoo , she went to germany university and turned into a sluut, something inside me die a little. I think what happened to her symbolizes what happened to china

every day i ask mysel why, above me i feel the spirits fly

说得很好。。。。。。。说得很好

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am sure we can all agree that China has some great stuff to offer and be proud of and lots of stuff to be ashamed off, stuff that needs to be changed and China is a work in progress, like every other Nation.

[TAO YIN]

:(

Thanks a lot Andy Miles! You just made me miss Chengdu in a very bad way, even the Tex Mex place on Kerhua North Road. Seriously, how is the job situation there in Chengdu?

Now that I think about it, Boulder Dawg has some good advice about going back. And, wait...Isn't there a hooters in Chengdu? hahaha! A hooters 3 hours away from O'Mei mountain. Why hate Deng? That is some bad arse capitalism right there. AND HOT POT? What in the fark am I doing here?

(Packs Bags)

[SimonM]

I am sure we can all agree that China has some great stuff to offer and be proud of and lots of stuff to be ashamed off, stuff that needs to be changed and China is a work in progress, like every other Nation.

Here is the thing with China:

It's a perfect example of statistics in action.

Most statistical distributions follow something called the "normal curve". This standard distribution from the mean degrades so that the extremes have increasingly few samples compared to the normal group (those within 3 standard deviations from the mean).

Now the larger the population is the more samples will fall outside of that 3 standard deviation range and be found in the periphery.

So it's almost a statistical inevitability that the best and the worst humanity has to offer will occur with greater frequency in China (with the largest sample size) than elsewhere.

Curse you Andy... you are making me want to go back again. :s

[Violent Designs]

Andy 说对了 。

[Shaolinlueb]

andy

you mentioned some greaty stuff about china.

heck i would love open air markets, and fresh food everyday. but i dont have the time to do that ish. USA and China are 2 different countries with 2 different histories. they do some stuff better then us, we do some stuff better then them.

[SimonM]

The open air markets are awesome.

But finding fresh produce in the winter is hard if you aren't in a big city.

There's only so much you can do with leeks and potatoes. :rolleyes:

[bakxierboxer]

Here is the thing with China:

It's a perfect example of statistics in action.

Most statistical distributions follow something called the "normal curve". This standard distribution from the mean degrades so that the extremes have increasingly few samples compared to the normal group (those within 3 standard deviations from the mean).

Now the larger the population is the more samples will fall outside of that 3 standard deviation range and be found in the periphery.

So it's almost a statistical inevitability that the best and the worst humanity has to offer will occur with greater frequency in China (with the largest sample size) than elsewhere

????????
More of them numerically?
"Frequency" still ought to be the "statistical average".......

[SimonM]

Not my best written set of paragraphs I'll admit.

What I meant was not that extremes occur with greater statistical frequency.

Rather that with a larger sample those same extreme frequencies represent more people.

[SPJ]

China in the new century.

1. culturally, it will return slowly to before. such as re use of the old Chinese characters, this way you may read text all the way back when--

2. economic or capitalism is the main drive in a society as before 1949. China trained largest number of engineers and management people in the new/western way.

a. economic development of the countryside and the western China is coming.

b. GDP continue to grow. or the economy continues to expand.

--

3. politically, it will be neutral to moderate.

4. communist ideaology is abandoned or postponed indefinately.

5. recently, there was a growing party wanted the Mao way to come back. A lot of members in major cities and growing.

they are saying the current direction started since Deng is anti China revolution 1949, sell out of CCP.

But nobody wants to close China again and go back to cultural revolution.

most consider this as a growing discontent from the farmers, and between the have and the have not.

all the coastal cities are living in the 21st century, however, most of the countryside and the far west are still very backward.

--

middle of the road has always been the best path.

China is turning toward the middle of the road again. not extreme lefty or righty.

the left would be the totally socialist past.

the right would be free capitalism

the middle of the road would be a mix of socialism and capitalism.

anyhow, more and more Chinese are living better than ever before in its entire history.

---

oops. maybe I was just dreaming.

--

:D;):p

[SPJ]

In short;

1. early Mao era. Mao was big with ideas. people had enough food and lots of spirits or faiths.

2. cultural revolution, not enough food. old culture destroyed or no food no culture.

3. Deng reform. more food for more people, culture is in the back seat or ideology not important.

4. 21 century, people need old culture back but not the social injustice from the past.

where we go from here?

--

:confused::eek::D

[bakxierboxer]

Not my best written set of paragraphs I'll admit.

What I meant was not that extremes occur with greater statistical frequency.

Rather that with a larger sample those same extreme frequencies represent more people.


Hmmmm...... ok.

So, that's something like "a larger number", "numerically speaking"?
(looking about for someplace handy (what else?) to store the recently-acquired handy/dandy (conveniently-weighted) bludgeon-of-infrequent-opportunity)

[SimonM]

Hmmmm...... ok.

So, that's something like "a larger number", "numerically speaking"?
(looking about for someplace handy (what else?) to store the recently-acquired handy/dandy (conveniently-weighted) bludgeon-of-infrequent-opportunity)

RotFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Drake]

The US has a LOT of open farmer's markets. People always give an excuse for not going to them, or pretend they don't exist, because they aren't conveniently next to a grocery store or a wal-mart. Laziness.

[Eddie]

Job situation is good. There is more opportunity than I can take. If you work like you have to at a real job in the US, then you can save more money here.

Between my wife and I we get to save 8000rmb every month, and that is without trying to save. We live comfortably, my son goes to a good school, we have an Ayi to look after him and help us cook and clean (our work times are very weird), we spend extra money every month for extra maths, Chinese and English classes for him on weekends, and we spend allot of extra money on trying to help my son settle in more easily.

Back home my income was much higher than here, but my money could not stretch as far as it does now.

You cannot compare life in China with life in the West. There is just something different about it.

ps I know people who live in shanghai who gets to save even more than that.

[Shaolinlueb]

The US has a LOT of open farmer's markets. People always give an excuse for not going to them, or pretend they don't exist, because they aren't conveniently next to a grocery store or a wal-mart. Laziness.

in the summer time i walk up to one from work and buy some veggies and fruits to eat. its awesome.

[Violent Designs]

I am really glad, that you guys have a good thing going Eddie.

Time goes by really fast . . . I still remember when you were telling me about your plans on moving out of Africa.

[KC Elbows]

China is great, but it is true that there are certain conversations about politics that people would NEVER do in public, much less protest the same things.

Not that there's no protest, but that certain protests are nonexistent.

As for culture and it's loss and women and men, an awful lot of Chinese custom on the mainland is still rooted in old ideas or customs paired with modern ones. The businesswomen that I met there often had the air of the first wife/house manager from stories, this sort of eyes wide open pragmatism paired with a sense of everything being measured for its worth. Being cultured, among many adults, is a point of pride: these would be people who never knew anything but a communist China, still showing Confucian traits. Mao was and is certainly viewed in Confucian terms by many. And while accusations about a woman's virtue by some men is still common enough in some areas, no one bats an eye when a guy brings his girlfriend, not his wife, out to dinner, much like 1950s America, with its own spin. I even sat while one guy out with his mistress scolded a younger member of the group for lacking "self control" flirting with a single girl earlier. The total lack of comment about such situations is certainly a lot more understandable in terms of the history of polygyny in China's past than any influence from without. There are a whole range of soap operas there that could best be titled "How the modern first wife can use a cellphone to mess with the competition."

Honestly, does the western world have pron on a level to compete with Plum In the Golden Vase? Heck, in both that and <<红楼梦>> there would not be much of a problem if not for the licentiousness of the male characters, if they simply behaved, some bad ends would be avoided. The idea that Chinese women needed modern or western examples of sexual misconduct in order to go that route ignores the fact that it's just as common there as anywhere else, with easily as many historical examples, probably more due to the length of China's history, as anywhere else in the world. In fact, the communists banned or censored a lot of books with sexual content, so I'm not so sure they can be blamed for the so-called fall of the Chinese woman's virtue, except perhaps where their policies may have undermined traditional roles without actually opening new roles.

[SimonM]

Back home my income was much higher than here, but my money could not stretch as far as it does now.


Yeah, I learned that the hard way by moving back to Canada where I make 3 times more money and seem to always have 3 times less.

As for China and Sex... I always thought this:

China didn't get to being the most populous nation in the world by the people therein being a bunch of chaste ascetics. Sex is, however, seen as a private matter. So what people get up to in the bedroom is their business and should be kept entirely that way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I learned that the hard way by moving back to Canada where I make 3 times more money and seem to always have 3 times less.

People always seem to forget that how much you make matters in relation to how much things cost, not to how much someone else makes 3000 miles away.

[SPJ]

more economic development for moslem, mongolian and tibetan people living in the far western part of China.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-i6i6gWASc&feature=channel_page

a tibetan wine drinking song.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKJql_oBfRY&feature=channel

travelling to tibet.

:)

[Eddie]

China and sex ….

Personally, I think this whole thing about “traditional” women is a complete myth.
I’m Happily married to my very beautiful soul mate, so I don’t really care about other girls, but this doesn’t seem to stop girls from openly flirting (and blatantly throwing themselves to me).

I think Western girls are maybe more open about their sexuality in public, where as the Chinese girls are more private – but what happens in the bedroom (apparently) … well….

As Simon said, they didn’t get to be the most populous country in the world by being prude :)