why do wing chun practitioners think wing chun is the end all be all!!!

[doug maverick]

ok im hoping to not start a flame war or anything here, if that happens i will erase this thread. ok for the past five years i've studied xing yi chuan, and i freaking love it, its one of the most effective forms of fighting i've trained in. it has its drawbacks which alot of my previous training has compensated for but its a good system for me and it works for me. ok now that thats out of the way.

i recently been training in wing chun just to see what is it all about, why so many people swear by it like it was jesus christ or something. and you know what i just dont see it. while it is a practical and effective art. it has tons of weakness's. and im not talking about ground fighting or any of that. cause in reality the floor is not someplace you want to be at in new york city;). anyway without getting to specific, i just dont see it. yes its a good art but no it is not the grand ultimate martial art. now there are guys on here who are gonna come at me with all sorts of crap, like oh you havent learned enough yet yadda yadda yadda yackity shmackity, just know also i have two friends who are really good sifus in wing chun. and lets just say what i said before, while i see its efectiveness especially in close range combat, there are alot of places where it needs to be compensated where things need to be added to make it more of an effective fighting form. just my opinion.

[David Jamieson]

most people who belong to an esoteric practice hold to teh idea that what they are doing is better than what everyone else does.

karatekas think their stuff is IT, tkd-ers think it is they who have the real chalupa, mma guys think that they have the answers to all conflicts and so on and so on. in fact, the more esoteric and obscure, the more likely the practitioners are to hold their thing above other things.

it's human nature.

it just seems like a lot of wing chun practitioners do it because there are so many wing chun people. It's the most widely practiced tcma there is. stands to reason they would have the greatest amount of people who think that wing chun is the best. :)

[Lucas]

also, i remember when i was studying wing chun, there was this mentality that. 'our material is superior' based on the wing chun method, structure, etc.

this is of course the same reason many other MA's think the same exact things, but I did notice more of a flaunting of the 'my methods is better than all' in WC than in other cirlces ive been involved in.

just my 2 cents of course, and in todays market, that aint worth much.

:D

[SimonM]

I think part of the problem is that WC's core principles look so good on paper.

Shortest path attacks seem like a good idea.
Simultaneous attack and defense is a good idea.
Attacking high with high and low with low seems like a good idea.

And so much ink has been spilled.
And the ideas have been talked about so much.

Oh, and Bruce Lee did Wing Chun.
And we all know that Xiaolong pwned Chuck Norris so... :p

There are also however some problems:

1) Mythology trumps actuality -


Wing Chun was invented by a woman in order to create a system that would equalize the combat disparity of inequal size.

This is a myth. And, honestly, WC really doesn't do it that much. WC is mainly an in-fighting striking art. Problem is that if you can't put big power behind those strikes and you are fighting close you are going to get grabbed. And WC doesn't handle getting grabbed very well... as has been discussed ad-nauseum.


The ground is the nuke.

To be fair this is conditioned based on a CMA background in which martial arts were largely a battlefield affair. The last place you want to be on a battle field is on your back. At best you get stepped on. Thing is that the ground isn't all sharks and hot lava. And the truth is that fights do frequently end up there because when two people are trying to destabilize each other one will likely fall down somehow. Predicating a system on the assumption that you will not end up there, especially an infighting system, is a bit of a stretch.


Fast beats strong

Honestly this should read fast and strong beats slow and strong. Thing is that if you don't condition for strength in some way it doesn't matter how fast you are, at best you can hope to run away.

2) Overspecialization

WC is a very clever infighting striking system (subject to the three issues enumerated above) however it has bupkiss for long range techniques and zippola for wrestling. When you combine that with the mckwoon attitude that "crosstraining is teh bad" it produces a lethal combination. Please note I am not saying that all, or even most, WC kwoons are mckwoons. I'm just saying that the level of specialization of the art makes it one particularly dependent on crosstraining to produce a well rounded fighter.

3) Your fingers are not a knife.

Putting on my rational sceptic hat for a second so people who believe in qi blasting and dim mak better plug their ears and go lalalalalalala.

Biu Ji and other techniques based on... well... poking seem to mistake fingers for a knife. This leads to problems.

Now, mind, a lot of WC's core techniques map really well to short blade combat. But down that road lies serious jail time... :s

[doug maverick]

i see what you guys are saying. maybe its because i had alot of good teachers who always taught me to question what i was learning. or maybe its because i grew up in an enviroment that afforded me the means to put my martial art into practical use. but most arts have to be readjusted in my opinion. mma while its ok, they train for the ring and in the ring you train to win. thats not necessarily the mantality you want in a street confrontation. cause fighting to win wont save your life, you have to go a step further then that. without getting to graphic. anyway thanks for everybodies two cents. its interesting. im just hoping none of the flamers pop up here. i hope this can be a healthy discussion on the martial arts. for at least two pages anyway.;)

[Dale Dugas]

wing chun is very popular due to the fact that the forms are easy to learn

you can learn the material in a short amount of time.

3 forms

One Pole Set

One Knife Set

Wooden Dummy form

Drills to develop sensitivity.

I feel many think its so good due to the legends and hype that it was developed to counter the traditional trained fighters of a corrupt Ching Goverment.

[sihing]

Because WC practitioners have been sold a story that it is like some sort of magic pill, you take it and it will do wonders for you (without the effort and understanding). I was sold the story that the whole idea behind it's creation was to be more superior and effective than the other arts out there, I was also told that the art does not need me to be strong nor fast and that it will work better for me when I am older due to the superior "skills" that it teaches.

The fact of the matter is, like anything worth learning, it takes plenty of time, effort and understanding to learn and apply the Wing Chun system. IMO, the art is very hard to learn, but easy to apply once one has had some practice under their belt (by apply I mean the ability to demonstrate and feel what the art is teaching us, not necessarily the ability to use it against someone else). I've learned now that although WC teaches unique abilities and skills, it still doesn't make one invulnerable to attack, nor a super fighter. Fighters IMO are born, not made, but one can always learn how to defend themselves. How skillful you want to become at the ability to defend yourself is solely up to the individual, as is the application of what one has learned thru the system. IMO, WC is all about training specific attributes and physical structures, because we operate in a specific way and range. Of course thru my experience in the system, I have seen and felt the weaknesses of it. Only those that think in a static way believe that a movement or strategy is invulnerable, combat is about changing, adapting, being proactive and reactive at the same time.

For me, I continue to practice and explore this system simply for the fact that I enjoy it a great deal. My training began in TWC (William Cheung's system), and now I practice the Wong Shun Leung method, both are called Wing Chun, but both are very different in learning and application.

Oh, as a WC practitioner I don't think it is the be all end all, as the art itself does not fight. Only people fight. Just like the idea that guns are dangerous, the gun by itself cannot do anything, it is just a tool, it is the people shooting the guns that are the danger.

James

[SanHeChuan]

Yeah I'm taking Wing Tsun now too, basically because it's free.
The attitude really bothers me, but I figure I can still learn some stuff.
I love how they parody other arts to make themselves look better.
Karate blocks and punches at the same time too, fool.
I have done a lot of different MA and I have never encountered anyone with the same attitude outside of BJJ/MMA.


I've learned now that although WC teaches unique abilities and skills, it still doesn't make one invulnerable to attack, nor a super fighter.

The only thing really unique about WC is how narrowly they confine themselves. The same/similar skills can be found else where, like mantis.

[sihing]

I think part of the problem is that WC's core principles look so good on paper.

Shortest path attacks seem like a good idea.
Simultaneous attack and defense is a good idea.
Attacking high with high and low with low seems like a good idea.

And so much ink has been spilled.
And the ideas have been talked about so much.

Oh, and Bruce Lee did Wing Chun.
And we all know that Xiaolong pwned Chuck Norris so... :p
This is all true. I would consider these sayings general ideas and things to keep in mind. It sort of sets up a mindset.
There are also however some problems:

1) Mythology trumps actuality -



This is a myth. And, honestly, WC really doesn't do it that much. WC is mainly an in-fighting striking art. Problem is that if you can't put big power behind those strikes and you are fighting close you are going to get grabbed. And WC doesn't handle getting grabbed very well... as has been discussed ad-nauseum.
As a long time WC practitioner, I've personally never believed that the system was created by a nun, and all that lore. IMO we really don't know where the development of the system came from, but I do believe each generation of Sifu's/practitioners has helped the art evolve, up until the point that it became over commercialized due to greed and the idea of being leader of a group of followers, basically big ego's. But there are some WC groups out there that are not a part of this type of thinking, that are really there to develop functional combat abilities.


To be fair this is conditioned based on a CMA background in which martial arts were largely a battlefield affair. The last place you want to be on a battle field is on your back. At best you get stepped on. Thing is that the ground isn't all sharks and hot lava. And the truth is that fights do frequently end up there because when two people are trying to destabilize each other one will likely fall down somehow. Predicating a system on the assumption that you will not end up there, especially an infighting system, is a bit of a stretch.
It is very unwise to predict or to think about any type of outcome in regards to combat. As far as I am concerned, you better have the training to back up your ability to defend yourself, and live in the moment while in combat. When nothing else has worked to avoid a confrontation, a decision has to be made to either fight or flight, and when you fight you have to put all your effort into the defeat of your opponent. Thinking about an outcome while all of this is happening is a no no in my book.


Honestly this should read fast and strong beats slow and strong. Thing is that if you don't condition for strength in some way it doesn't matter how fast you are, at best you can hope to run away.
True, but are we talking about strenght here or power. From what I understand, WC striking power comes from the ground and the legs, the strongest most powerful muscles in the body, backed up by a structure that can capitalize on that idea.
2) Overspecialization

WC is a very clever infighting striking system (subject to the three issues enumerated above) however it has bupkiss for long range techniques and zippola for wrestling. When you combine that with the mckwoon attitude that "crosstraining is teh bad" it produces a lethal combination. Please note I am not saying that all, or even most, WC kwoons are mckwoons. I'm just saying that the level of specialization of the art makes it one particularly dependent on crosstraining to produce a well rounded fighter.
The idea of being a "well rounder fighter" is brought about IMO due to the sportizing of the Martial Arts. Yeah, if you want to compete you shouldn't train in WC, because that is not the purpose of it. And if your interest is more varied, I whole heartedly advise those type to study whatever they feel the need to, but the question is, is that really needed when one is defending themselves in an everyday envirnoment situation. Most of us are limited in the amount of time we can spend on MA training.
3) Your fingers are not a knife.

Putting on my rational sceptic hat for a second so people who believe in qi blasting and dim mak better plug their ears and go lalalalalalala.

Biu Ji and other techniques based on... well... poking seem to mistake fingers for a knife. This leads to problems.
BJ that I practice now, has nothing really to do with finger strikes, although the idea of finger strikes is a part of the WC system, more of an advanced practice. The first thing learned is how to hit hard, move fast and eat up the space of the guy attacking you. BJ is most about what happenes when your structure is broken, lost or you find yourself in situation where the normal training doesn't consider. It's out of the box training.

Now, mind, a lot of WC's core techniques map really well to short blade combat. But down that road lies serious jail time... :s

Just continuing the conversation, good points brought up:)

James

[David Jamieson]

The "well rounded" fighter is a concept as old as time.

over-specialization is a sport fighter thing.

[YouKnowWho]

efectiveness
We should not look at MA just from one style point of view. We should look at what is available on this planet. If you want to train:

- punching skill then you should choose long fist, PM, WC, boxing, ...
- kicking skill then you should choose long fist, TKD, MT, ...
- locking skill then you should choose eagle claw, aikido, ...
- throwing skill then you should choose SC, Judo, wrestling, ...
- ground skill then you should choose BJJ, ...
- speed then you should choose PM, Zimen, ...
- power generation then you should choose Baiji, XYLH, Chen taiji, ...

I may just suggest the MMA approach without using the word "MMA". Chinese had already done MMA long time ago.


'our material is superior'
I can never agree with my Pigua and Bagua friend's comment, "If you have trained Pigua for 5 years then you can defeat people from any style. If you have trained Bagua for 5 years then you can multiple those Pigua guys on your finger tips".

[golden arhat]

wing chun only works when you go FOOM FOOM FOOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSAsxPEP7Tk :cool:

[Hardwork108]

ok im hoping to not start a flame war or anything here, if that happens i will erase this thread. ok for the past five years i've studied xing yi chuan, and i freaking love it, its one of the most effective forms of fighting i've trained in. it has its drawbacks which alot of my previous training has compensated for but its a good system for me and it works for me. ok now that thats out of the way.

i recently been training in wing chun just to see what is it all about, why so many people swear by it like it was jesus christ or something. and you know what i just dont see it. while it is a practical and effective art. it has tons of weakness's. and im not talking about ground fighting or any of that. cause in reality the floor is not someplace you want to be at in new york city;). anyway without getting to specific, i just dont see it. yes its a good art but no it is not the grand ultimate martial art. now there are guys on here who are gonna come at me with all sorts of crap, like oh you havent learned enough yet yadda yadda yadda yackity shmackity, just know also i have two friends who are really good sifus in wing chun. and lets just say what i said before, while i see its efectiveness especially in close range combat, there are alot of places where it needs to be compensated where things need to be added to make it more of an effective fighting form. just my opinion.

I just had a quick read of the others' posts and some of what I am about to say has probably been said already. I want to put a WC practitioner's perspective.

Wing Chun is not the best kung fu style there is, but if practiced in its complete aspects then it is a great style to master and then go on to other kung fu styles.

The way Wing Chun has been marketed has contributed greatly to the way all WC practitioners believe that what they do is the best kung fu style there is. Bruce Lee has played his part in this as well, albeit unwillingly.

Ironically this "Wing Chun is superior to other kung fu styles" propaganda is more often than not pushed by the less talented of the Wing Chun fraternity which would include the majority of the "sifus" in this sad era of Mcdojos or McKwoons.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I've got your flame war right here. Wing Chun is a girls style!! You want to learn how to fight like a girl?!

LOL Just kidding!!

In all seriousness, Wing Chun can be an extremely effective system in the right hands. I do, however, feel that it is somewhat...limited.

As far as the bigotry, I would have no beef with the way Wing Chun is portrayed and advertised if it weren't for the great number of sifus who do try to pump it up as being the greatest. Too often I read in brochures how "it's the most effective fighting system in the word!!" and it's "the best" self defense system and so on. There's not many other styles that advertise like this. But I do see it a lot with Wing Chun, I have to admit.

In the last 15 years or so I've seen two other styles where these sorts of claims seem to be prevalent: Ba Gua, and BJJ and/or MMA whatever you want to call it. I suppose there's a little of that in Ninjutsu or Taijutsu as well.

Doesn't everyone realize that, for the most part, it's really the fighter and not the style? Pretty much all TCMA's have been proven to work and be effective throughout history. Otherwise, nobody would be practicing them anymore!

[lianweizhi]

I'm a CLF practitioner, so naturally I don't think wing chun is the end all be all. However, based on Donnie Yen's new Ip Man film, it can certainly look pretty frickin' bad ass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkHmYJmfuWg

[Violent Designs]

The Northern sh1t in that movie looked 1200 times better.

[TenTigers]

DougMaverick-could you go into detail on what you feel are the limitations of WC? I am also npot trying to start a flame war, and if you prefer, you can pm me instead. I'm just curious.

[bawang]

i thikn weng chun is a decent style, but i have no idea why the hell its so dam popular, its average shouthern short fist

[Shaolinlueb]

its funny doug that we were talking about this the other day.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The human body is not always perfect in construction. Mine certainly isn't, and that probably goes for the majority of people. For this reason you will find people that excell in certain physical sports. Others might be poor at the same sport because they cannot perform the same. This is why Wing Chun is so popular. It can be quickly learned by just about anyone. And it will remain effective for the majority of one's life as they need not be of great physical prowess, which only lasts for a short time in one's life. I have seen some beautiful styles of gung fu. Wishing that I could be so good. But the fact is that I can not kick high and can not do all the fancy moves that seem to be the rage today. Looks seems to be everything.
Wing chun is not real easy, but if one is quick enough to realize and understand the concepts he or she can move right along quickly. And do not be fooled in believing WC strikes do not have power. WC only has a small number of hand and kick techniques compared to other forms of gung fu, and all of them are based scientifically. It is easier to learn a few moves to perfection than to learn a bunch of moves partially. And then you can move on to different variations of each of the techniques. I hold black belts in Jap jujitsu, but only have about 50 or 60 basic techniques, and of each of these techniques I will have upward of 10 or 12 variations. This gives me upward of around 600 or more techniques at my disposal. Even at that, I will always tend to use a certain few of these techniques when it becomes necessary. I believe this is probably true of most practitioners of fighting styles.
Competing calls for great form and moves, but most times it is not practical stuff that can win compititions. Stuff that looks good might not always be practical in a life or death situation. WC has plenty of on the ground fighting but it seems that most people never get that far into it, so have the impression that it is lacking in that area. I started my training in WC 53 years ago, and I still don't feel like I can clean out a room full of bikers. I was a printer by trade for most of my adult life, but I also kept a second job of bouncing or security. I have had to deal with a lot of guys, some trained in some form of martial art of some sort, but most just fist fighters and grapplers. The only fighting style I never did come up on was WC. I think it would have scared me. I have always been good on the ground, and I am guessing it might be a combination of both my skills, but I use my WC on the ground to good effect. So it is there. I don't think it is better, but it can be all you need. It is all in the way you look at it. What you are willing to put into it I guess. But I suppose that goes for all the other styles as well.

[notanexit]

wing chun only works when you go FOOM FOOM FOOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSAsxPEP7Tk :cool:
It also works if someone attacks you half assed.You see that lame takedown attempt?It reminded me of my former school.Someone gives you a half assed attack,then you counter it and look cool.Then you test and you walk around thinking you can fight.

I'm a CLF practitioner, so naturally I don't think wing chun is the end all be all. However, based on Donnie Yen's new Ip Man film, it can certainly look pretty frickin' bad ass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkHmYJmfuWg
Movies can make any art look good.But after I looked at that clip,I watched a wc vs bjj clip.That'll bring you back to reality.

[bawang]

i havent seen any wng chun people in real life use any sort of footwork, someone plz explain to me? is it they just no good?
i know some south style "every step grows root" and many south styles are boat style, but in traditional term, how weng chun guy can beat northern kung fu with range 5 to 10 meters?? :confused:

also i never heard of weng chun being rebel style? in 15 year long taiping rebellion led by southern hakka, they used northern kung fu like tanglang, mizong, chuojiao, chai li fut?

i read weng chun forums and they were arguing how to defend a hook punch, lol

[golden arhat]

anyway, wing chun isnt the end all and be all personally i think MMA is because its constantly evolving and is a mix of everything else so by definition if you mix ALL martial arts then its is the end ALL and be ALL
but then most martial arts are MMA they had to come from somewhere


i think that most martial arts have value but are rarely trained well enough or hard enough to make them work and have become trivialised and over complicated and ritualised

a punch is a punch weitehr its hung gar or whatever you just need to know how you can make it work.
that and do sparring, alot of it, and ground work that always helps

spar good, wrestle good, and train good and you will be good regardless of your style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, I don't know of any decent WC practioners that think that WC is the "end all" of the MA.
They all know they strengths and limitations of their art.

[Shaolinlueb]

well according to one WC practitioner we are all just glorified kick boxers, so what do we know about wing chun. heck it has had ground fighting in it for years and no one knew. not even the guy who started up the wing chun museum. :eek::rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

well according to one WC practitioner we are all just glorified kick boxers, so what do we know about wing chun. heck it has had ground fighting in it for years and no one knew. not even the guy who started up the wing chun museum. :eek::rolleyes:

Those wacky cross training knuckle heads !

[lianweizhi]

Wow, got a lot of flak for putting up a clip of a movie that I would have thought kung fu practitioners would have appreciated... in my opinion Ip Man is the best kung fu movie to come out in terms of the choreography since Jet Li's Fist of Legend. I was just trying to help it get a little exposure out in the West.

I completely understand that movies can make any art look good... as I mentioned, I'm no wing chun lover, but every art has its strengths and weaknesses. As a martial arts practitioner and enthusiast, I appreciate the differences and nuances of all martial arts, be it choy lay fut, bak sil lum, wing chun, or MMA.

With my limited ring and contact experience, I've come to the same conclusion many of you have come to - that it's not as much the style as it is the practitioner. I put in 4-5 hours a week of martial arts training (including timing drills, light sparring, body contitioning, and, yes, form practice) and another 4 hours a week strength and conditioning training, which might not seem like a lot, but it is a challenge to coordinate my engineering job, 7-9 credit hours of MBA courses, and any semblance of a life on top of that. With that level of training sustained over the last 10 years, I've been able to decimate kickboxers, grapplers, and kung fu practitioners, but have also had my butt kicked. The common denominator was literally how much better or worse shape I was in and how much more or less fighting experience I had than the other guy. That's the real end all be all.

[lkfmdc]

pffiiffffffff.....

you guys can't ground fight because you've never learned the REAL chin-na :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

The common denominator was literally how much better or worse shape I was in and how much more or less fighting experience I had than the other guy. That's the real end all be all.

that's just crazy talk !
:D

[lkfmdc]

heh heh I just found this! :D (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53495)

[Shaolinlueb]

heh heh I just found this! :D (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53495)

that is too good. +1

[lkfmdc]

dear lord, sensitive lot over there, Joy is now crying about why Tom Wong should have to prove his claims :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

well according to one WC practitioner we are all just glorified kick boxers, so what do we know about wing chun. heck it has had ground fighting in it for years and no one knew. not even the guy who started up the wing chun museum. :eek::rolleyes:

And that should tell you about the sorry state of Wing Chun and kung fu in general, in this era of Mcdojos and Mckung fu.

And please read my previous post on this thread. Oh, couple of fundemental points:

A) Wing Chun is a principle and concept driven style. So use your logic and imagination in regards to that fact.

B) The Hong Kong/Yip Man lineage is not the only lineage of Wing Chun on the planet, even if most of the Western countries are peppered with the Hong Kong franchises of this style.

C) There are other kung fu styles that address groundfighting. This does not mean necessarilly that they roll on the ground for sometimes the best part of 30 minutes with their opponent in a sport scenario.

[Shaolinlueb]

And that should tell you about the sorry state of Wing Chun and kung fu in general, in this era of Mcdojos and Mckung fu.

And please read my previous post on this thread. Oh, couple of fundemental points:

A) Wing Chun is a principle and concept driven style. So use your logic and imagination in regards to that fact.

B) The Hong Kong/Yip Man lineage is not the only lineage of Wing Chun on the planet, even if most of the Western countries are peppered with the Hong Kong franchises of this style.

C) There are other kung fu styles that address groundfighting. This does not mean necessarilly that they roll on the ground for sometimes the best part of 30 minutes with their opponent in a sport scenario.

oh relax i was kidding.

[Hardwork108]

oh relax i was kidding.

I don't think you were but I hope that you have been "enlightened" by me response.

[lkfmdc]

When your ultra secret "real authentic kung fu ground fighting" gets you tapped out in under 60 seconds, there is no need for rolling for 30 minutes :D

[SimonM]

A) Wing Chun is a principle and concept driven style.


On this we do not disagree. However we do disagree about the consequences. People don't fight with concepts. They fight with hands and feet.



C) There are other kung fu styles that address groundfighting. This does not mean necessarilly that they roll on the ground for sometimes the best part of 30 minutes with their opponent in a sport scenario.

Dog boxing involves a lot of rolling and kicks from below. This does not a submission wrestling system make. And if somebody jumps on you it neutralizes it.

Aside from Dog Boxing I can't recall anything remotely resembling a ground fighting system.

Of course I remain open to you showing me next time you are in my neck of the woods.

[Shaolinlueb]

I don't think you were but I hope that you have been "enlightened" by me response.

well i knew there were styles that addressed ground boxing and i know they are grappling. this is not some new secret news.

lol relax i was Kidding.......:rolleyes:

[dnovice]

We think it is because it is! :rolleyes:

honestly though, as for any martial art it boils down to the practitioner. I think the reason people love it so much is because it's easy to pick up enough to beat an average person... i say pick up enough because to become really really good takes time and effort. But still the basic pak sao will take you lots of places... not many other martial arts have that.:D

[dnovice]

When your ultra secret "real authentic kung fu ground fighting" gets you tapped out in under 60 seconds, there is no need for rolling for 30 minutes :D

Tapped out.... who cares about tapped out? Unless you are into sport fighting:D:p

[lkfmdc]

Tapped out.... who cares about tapped out? Unless you are into sport fighting:D:p

we don't care if you don't tap, we'll just break your arm or choke you unconscious, if that doesn't bother you :rolleyes:

[dnovice]

we don't care if you don't tap, we'll just break your arm or choke you unconscious, if that doesn't bother you :rolleyes:

:eek: No. pls. no. i tap out. :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

When your ultra secret "real authentic kung fu ground fighting" gets you tapped out in under 60 seconds, there is no need for rolling for 30 minutes :D

I was hoping that you were telling the truth (for once, at least) when you said that you had me on ignore for the past 5 days or so, but I somehow knew it would be too much to ask of an UNAUTHENTIC sifu!

[Hardwork108]

On this we do not disagree. However we do disagree about the consequences. People don't fight with concepts. They fight with hands and feet.

Really? You mean no chi blasts and magic powers?...lol,lol.

You are stating the obvious Simon and you missed my point.


Dog boxing involves a lot of rolling and kicks from below. This does not a submission wrestling system make. And if somebody jumps on you it neutralizes it.

It is very unfortunate that generations of Dog Boxing masters of the past did not realize that they could have been "neutralized" by someone simply jumping on them..lol.

If they were alive today I would have told them to use you as a kung fu consultant and of course I would have recommended them to Lkfmdc's "kung fu":rolleyes: DVD....[falls off chair laughing]


Aside from Dog Boxing I can't recall anything remotely resembling a ground fighting system.
Then that must be it, if Simon doesn't know about it then it doesn't exist....lol.

It exists in the lineage of Wing Chun that I practice and it is not a "secret" technique as is jokingly implied by some knuckleheads here in the forums.

Besides if you you read my initial posts then you will see that what I said was that some kung fu styles "address" groundfighting and I did make it clear that I was not talking about submission wrestling.


Of course I remain open to you showing me next time you are in my neck of the woods.

Christ, first it was Dale Dugas and now it is you....lol. I bet you had the same decorator that designed your houses with the "always" open doors....lol,lol.

[lkfmdc]

:eek: No. pls. no. i tap out. :rolleyes:

Go to any BJJ school you can find, pay a mat fee (though many will let you try a class for FREE). Grapple with them, and don't tap, see what happens.....

[Yoshiyahu]

You have just started world war five....I am from America. I bet you we got europeans online fighting and firing back too. Sad to say we got people on both sides fighting each other too...lol ha ha...No style is the end all to be all...Not even MMA or crosstraining. You can only retain so much. So even if you practiced BJJ you are still limited. You do not have all the answers against MT guy or against boxer. If you study BJJ boxing and MUay Thai you are a little more rounded...but not totally knowledgeable of whats out there. For one you can never be completely ready for every type of fighter. Because all three of those styles might not prepare you for a judo fighter or ninjitsu fighter or a tai chi fighter. You may not be able to withstand a skilled karate fighter. There is no way to know for sure....


If you study WC and want to proficent at it...you must first practice diligently. An as Terrence Niehoff says you must fight with your WC. Practice to me includes:forms,drills,chi sau,punches,kicks,breaking down each block and drilling it over and over again,practicing your steps, power training,stamina and endurance training and flexibilty and agility.

These are all key factors make you a well rounded fighter. There are things that can give your WC another dimension and there are things that can actually evelavate your WC. Both are good. Is something wrong with MMA...No its really good. These guys fight all the time...atleast some do. They get exposure to little bit from each art and get in shape.

I personally have nothing against ground fighting. I just don't like it. Don't like the techs and how it looks and feels. Its me and my opinion no need to ridicule me.

Personally I feel most fights don't go to ground. Unless you got some stupid guy who realize he can not out duke you with his fist and decides since his face is getting pounded anyway he has to drop you to stop from getting knocked out...Personally as for cross training, I actually do cross train...But I have been studing WC for some years. I personally more comfortable with WC. I think personally if not WC i would choose Karate or Muay Thai for their power and aggressiveness. These arts will keep you alive. Of course I am fond of the five animals and various kungs.

But what flames me is when some people say with out ground fighting your WC is usesless. Sure everything has limitations. But once you realize your limitations you learn how fight with them. Also if you have a limitation other senses become stronger. We have to stop focusing on the limitations and start focusing on the strenghts of a given art. Only then can we compensate.


But I am curious outside of ground fighting what are the limitations of WC?



ok im hoping to not start a flame war or anything here, if that happens i will erase this thread. ok for the past five years i've studied xing yi chuan, and i freaking love it, its one of the most effective forms of fighting i've trained in. it has its drawbacks which alot of my previous training has compensated for but its a good system for me and it works for me. ok now that thats out of the way.

i recently been training in wing chun just to see what is it all about, why so many people swear by it like it was jesus christ or something. and you know what i just dont see it. while it is a practical and effective art. it has tons of weakness's. and im not talking about ground fighting or any of that. cause in reality the floor is not someplace you want to be at in new york city;). anyway without getting to specific, i just dont see it. yes its a good art but no it is not the grand ultimate martial art. now there are guys on here who are gonna come at me with all sorts of crap, like oh you havent learned enough yet yadda yadda yadda yackity shmackity, just know also i have two friends who are really good sifus in wing chun. and lets just say what i said before, while i see its efectiveness especially in close range combat, there are alot of places where it needs to be compensated where things need to be added to make it more of an effective fighting form. just my opinion.



Your post is one of the best so far...great post on this thread...you have enlighten a lot of people who do not realize it yet!!!



Wow, got a lot of flak for putting up a clip of a movie that I would have thought kung fu practitioners would have appreciated... in my opinion Ip Man is the best kung fu movie to come out in terms of the choreography since Jet Li's Fist of Legend. I was just trying to help it get a little exposure out in the West.

I completely understand that movies can make any art look good... as I mentioned, I'm no wing chun lover, but every art has its strengths and weaknesses. As a martial arts practitioner and enthusiast, I appreciate the differences and nuances of all martial arts, be it choy lay fut, bak sil lum, wing chun, or MMA.

With my limited ring and contact experience, I've come to the same conclusion many of you have come to - that it's not as much the style as it is the practitioner. I put in 4-5 hours a week of martial arts training (including timing drills, light sparring, body contitioning, and, yes, form practice) and another 4 hours a week strength and conditioning training, which might not seem like a lot, but it is a challenge to coordinate my engineering job, 7-9 credit hours of MBA courses, and any semblance of a life on top of that. With that level of training sustained over the last 10 years, I've been able to decimate kickboxers, grapplers, and kung fu practitioners, but have also had my butt kicked. The common denominator was literally how much better or worse shape I was in and how much more or less fighting experience I had than the other guy. That's the real end all be all.


I have been enlighten by your responses!!! Excellent....


I don't think you were but I hope that you have been "enlightened" by me response.



Ha Ha funny

Tapped out.... who cares about tapped out? Unless you are into sport fighting:D:p

I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?



we don't care if you don't tap, we'll just break your arm or choke you unconscious, if that doesn't bother you :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?

Good luck with that.

[Wayfaring]

Because all three of those styles might not prepare you for a judo fighter or ninjitsu fighter or a tai chi fighter. You may not be able to withstand a skilled karate fighter. There is no way to know for sure....

Sure there is. You actually go out and spar with these different types of fighters to obtain an idea of what to expect.



If you study WC and want to proficent at it...you must first practice diligently. An as Terrence Niehoff says you must fight with your WC. Practice to me includes:forms,drills,chi sau,punches,kicks,breaking down each block and drilling it over and over again,practicing your steps, power training,stamina and endurance training and flexibilty and agility.

You mean you actually have to train in martial arts to be able to fight with them? Geez, and here all along I thought you just had to post on the Internet.



These are all key factors make you a well rounded fighter. There are things that can give your WC another dimension and there are things that can actually evelavate your WC. Both are good. Is something wrong with MMA...No its really good. These guys fight all the time...atleast some do. They get exposure to little bit from each art and get in shape.

Actually the conditioning and the continual sparring / fighting in a live environment is one of the best things about the MMA style of training. Being an out of shape MA practitioner that doesn't spar or fight and yet thinking your science will protect you is delusional.



I personally have nothing against ground fighting. I just don't like it. Don't like the techs and how it looks and feels. Its me and my opinion no need to ridicule me.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far. You seem to present plenty of reasons to ridicule you.



Personally I feel most fights don't go to ground. Unless you got some stupid guy who realize he can not out duke you with his fist and decides since his face is getting pounded anyway he has to drop you to stop from getting knocked out...Personally as for cross training, I actually do cross train...But I have been studing WC for some years. I personally more comfortable with WC. I think personally if not WC i would choose Karate or Muay Thai for their power and aggressiveness. These arts will keep you alive. Of course I am fond of the five animals and various kungs.

So outside of the fat kid in high school who said "dude get off me", how many personal fights have you had that did or did not go to the ground? Any objective
evidence? Because how you feel usually doesn't dictate how a fight goes.



But what flames me is when some people say with out ground fighting your WC is usesless. Sure everything has limitations. But once you realize your limitations you learn how fight with them. Also if you have a limitation other senses become stronger. We have to stop focusing on the limitations and start focusing on the strenghts of a given art. Only then can we compensate.

Why does this flame you? Modern evidence suggests that the strengths of an art have less to do with winning or losing than limiting the weaknesses. This is because reasonably skilled fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage.



I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?
This is pretty clear evidence you have zero experience with arm bars. If you are being arm barred you do not have elbows - one is trapped and the other has no leverage to strike with. You don't have knees as you are not in a position to be able to strike with any force with them. You have no target to head butt. You probably could bite the top leg, but the effect of that would probably be to p!ss someone off enough to really crank the arm bar, severely dislocating your elbow. There are effective escapes from this position, none of which has anything to do with what you stated.

[SimonM]

Then that must be it, if Simon doesn't know about it then it doesn't exist....lol.


No.

I don't know about it.

So I say "show me".

Talk is cheap.



This is pretty clear evidence you have zero experience with arm bars. If you are being arm barred you do not have elbows - one is trapped and the other has no leverage to strike with. You don't have knees as you are not in a position to be able to strike with any force with them. You have no target to head butt. You probably could bite the top leg, but the effect of that would probably be to p!ss someone off enough to really crank the arm bar, severely dislocating your elbow. There are effective escapes from this position, none of which has anything to do with what you stated.

I think if I were applying an arm bar and somebody bit me I'd crank the arm... and then I'd transition to mount and punch the living hell out of the biter.

The other information is all correct. I had trouble escaping from arm bars for a long time. Then I learned how to do it... and now I don't have trouble. But none of the techniques described above fit the bill.

[lkfmdc]

I personally have nothing against ground fighting. I just don't like it.




"you may not be interested in war, but war might be interested in you"




I got knees,elbows,teeth and head to butt with...what makes you think I would let you breat my arm?



Go to a BJJ school, challenge them, report back to us what happens with that theory of yours :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

To be fair, if he only intends to fight for sport he can disregard a range in which he has no intention of fighting.

Just a reflection on knees on the ground.

I remember one time I was free wrestling with a friend and I got into cross body. As I like doing from cross body I started applying a Kimura and my friend decided to knee me.

He struck me about ten times in the ribs with a knee while I patiently applied the lock.

In the end he tapped.

The reason why: no ability to generate power for the knees.

Kneeing while being armbarred would be much harder.

[dnovice]

"you may not be interested in war, but war might be interested in you"



Go to a BJJ school, challenge them, report back to us what happens with that theory of yours :rolleyes:

All hail the Supreme martial arts, BJJ... bow before them. :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

BJJ isn't the end-all for fighting.

But BJJ, or at least Judo are the end-all for ground submission wrestling. So if you want to be prepared to defend against being choked or locked up while on the ground knowing one of those two arts is a very good idea.

[lkfmdc]

All hail the Supreme martial arts, BJJ... bow before them. :rolleyes:

what should we hail? Blind ignorance and fairy tale conceptions? If you think you are going to head butt or bite your way out of a submission you are deluding yourself. Perhaps instead of being insecure and in denial you could, gasp, CROSS TRAIN and make yourself better?

No, better go back to your chi ball blasts and hope for the best :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

All hail the Supreme martial arts, BJJ... bow before them. :rolleyes:

Hardly supreme but very effective.


BJJ isn't the end-all for fighting.

But BJJ, or at least Judo are the end-all for ground submission wrestling. So if you want to be prepared to defend against being choked or locked up while on the ground knowing one of those two arts is a very good idea.

Quite correct, to disregard that is, well, not very "martial" at all.


what should we hail? Blind ignorance and fairy tale conceptions? If you think you are going to head butt or bite your way out of a submission you are deluding yourself. Perhaps instead of being insecure and in denial you could, gasp, CROSS TRAIN and make yourself better?


I'll give BJJ guys this much, you an pretty much go to any and you will find more than one guy willing and able to take you on, for you education, with as little rules as you like, even no rules.

[SimonM]

I'll give BJJ guys this much, you an pretty much go to any and you will find more than one guy willing and able to take you on, for you education, with as little rules as you like, even no rules.

I'm not EXACTLY a BJJ guy... in that it's not my main art (I'd probably still list Hung Gar for that)... but I'm close enough (in that I really like submission wrestling) that a lot of the guys who hate on wrestlers wouldn't be likely to spot the difference and I'll say this:

The fewer rules there are the happier I am.

Want to add head butts in? I'm game.
Knees and elbows? Fire away.

There are only two techniques I would disallow in a sparring session:

1) Eye pokes.
2) Biting.

Honestly I think the Greeks had fighting arts right with Pankration. Too bad the benighted Christian rulers of the Byzantine Roman Empire dropped the sport.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not EXACTLY a BJJ guy... in that it's not my main art (I'd probably still list Hung Gar for that)... but I'm close enough (in that I really like submission wrestling) that a lot of the guys who hate on wrestlers wouldn't be likely to spot the difference and I'll say this:

The fewer rules there are the happier I am.

Want to add head butts in? I'm game.
Knees and elbows? Fire away.

There are only two techniques I would disallow in a sparring session:

1) Eye pokes.
2) Biting.

Honestly I think the Greeks had fighting arts right with Pankration. Too bad the benighted Christian rulers of the Byzantine Roman Empire dropped the sport.

Ah dude, I've done the Vale Tudo with eye pokes and biting.
They are just as good or bad as any other technique.

[dnovice]

what should we hail? Blind ignorance and fairy tale conceptions? If you think you are going to head butt or bite your way out of a submission you are deluding yourself. Perhaps instead of being insecure and in denial you could, gasp, CROSS TRAIN and make yourself better?

No, better go back to your chi ball blasts and hope for the best :rolleyes:

Haha. I'm not saying any MA is the best, just pointing out that its ridiculous to keep saying "GO TO A BJJ SCHOOL AND U'LL SEE." come on man.:rolleyes:

[


BJJ isn't the end-all for fighting.

But BJJ, or at least Judo are the end-all for ground submission wrestling.

OK. no one said otherwise. What about stand up? I hope you see how ridiculous this argument is. When i stated the above i was being sarcastic hoping you will see the my art is better than yours is silly.


Hardly supreme but very effective.
QUOTE]

Ok. wing chun is effective too although it has its weaknesses, just like BJJ. So you've made no point here.

[QUOTE=SimonM;923251]I'm not EXACTLY a BJJ guy... in that it's not my main art (I'd probably still list Hung Gar for that)... but I'm close enough (in that I really like submission wrestling) that a lot of the guys who hate on wrestlers wouldn't be likely to spot the difference and I'll say this:

The fewer rules there are the happier I am.

Want to add head butts in? I'm game.
Knees and elbows? Fire away.

There are only two techniques I would disallow in a sparring session:

1) Eye pokes.
2) Biting.

Honestly I think the Greeks had fighting arts right with Pankration. Too bad the benighted Christian rulers of the Byzantine Roman Empire dropped the sport.

Ok good for you man. ??

Now to all, being a martial artist you should know that its not the style but the practioner that fights and wins or loses. If you at this point in your ma can't see this then...

[doug maverick]

me personally, im a giant fan of cross training, i think it makes for a well rounded effective martial artist. i started training martial arts at four, first learning aikido from my mom which was boring to me as a kid so i started training tkd like most little kids, and then shotokan, BJJ(before it was the end all be all;) ) a few other style, until i started training in the chinese arts at 12, first lung ying kuen, then hun ga & fu jow pai, bagua zhang and finally xing yi and wing chun. and through out all my training i've retained alot of knowledge from each. now me personally im not a fan of ground fighting, just again not the kind of place you want to be in new york city if you come up against some stupid ass street thugs which is a likelyhood no matter where you live in the city, ******* are as much an infestation as the rats and pigeons. doesnt mean i havent trained my ass off in grappling(**** i was even on the wrestling team in high school) just so i know how to get out of a ground situation and back on my feet as fast as i possibly can and its proved effective. i once asked my sifu why there werent to much ground fighting in kung fu. his answer made sense to me and may make sense to some of you. most martial arts like xing yi were designed for war, if some how a warrior lost his weapon and had to result to hand to hand combat, he had to take his opponent out asap and move on to the next opponent, if he fell to the floor he risked being trampled to death by horses speared by another opponent or any number of mishaps, so most fighters tried to stay on there feet, while there are ground strikes and take down(as evident in xing yi's dragon hand movement as well as others) there wasnt much time for grappling aside from your occasional throw or break. and he also told me the stomping done in alot of forms like xing yi and chen tai chi, was not for generating the energy like alot of teachers say but in fact to stomp your enemies head in as you move on to the next opponent. im not saying my teacher was right or wrong, just saying that this makes sense for me.

[SimonM]

Ah dude, I've done the Vale Tudo with eye pokes and biting.
They are just as good or bad as any other technique.

Biting spreads disease.
Eye poking is just plain childish (as is biting).

[SimonM]

OK. no one said otherwise. What about stand up? I hope you see how ridiculous this argument is. When i stated the above i was being sarcastic hoping you will see the my art is better than yours is silly.


For stand up there are other options.

WC still wouldn't be my first choice. If I'm close it's not how I like to fight close. At long range there are much better options. That is, however, me and not an indictment of the entirity of WC.



Now to all, being a martial artist you should know that its not the style but the practioner that fights and wins or loses

This is true. However the problem which arises is the frequency that some within the WC community apparently (according to the thread starter) don't see this.

And any fighter who believes in firing magical qi balls for the win deserves a thumping.

[lkfmdc]

its ridiculous to keep saying "GO TO A BJJ SCHOOL AND U'LL SEE." come on man.:rolleyes:



you missed the point entirely

when people say "I don't need ground grappling because I can bite, gouge and head but" THAT IS THE RIDICULOUS STATEMENT

:rolleyes:

[SimonM]

you missed the point entirely

when people say "I don't need ground grappling because I can bite, gouge and head but" THAT IS THE RIDICULOUS STATEMENT

:rolleyes:

Headbutts don't work from the ground.
Eye Gouging is likewise a low percentage move. When somebody is sitting on your chest you don't want to be sticking your arms where they can do things to them.
And biting... biting spreads diseases and it's disgusting... and it's not likely to do more than really **** off the person you bite.

And then they may disabuse you of the notion that people who bite deserve to have teeth.

[lkfmdc]

The real issue is that, in order to gouge, head butt, etc you need CONTROL... who can hit easier, the guy on top or the guy pinned on the bottom (forget about guard for a minute, if you have no jiu jitsu you have no guard)

If you want to gouge my eyes, why can't I gouge yours? And if I have the control on the ground, whose gouge is going to work

Go back and look at the "san soo vs BJJ" fight. San Soo is on bottom, tries to eye gouge, and sets up the arm lock that gets his arm broken WITHOUT EVEN REALIZING HIS ARM WAS ABOUT TO BE BROKEN


Headbutts don't work from the ground.
Eye Gouging is likewise a low percentage move. When somebody is sitting on your chest you don't want to be sticking your arms where they can do things to them.
And biting... biting spreads diseases and it's disgusting... and it's not likely to do more than really **** off the person you bite.

And then they may disabuse you of the notion that people who bite deserve to have teeth.

[SimonM]

Exactly. Like I said when you have somebody sitting on you in mount or even inside your guard you don't want to be extending your arm for them to do unpleasant things to it...

Especially if you don't know how to fight on the ground.

If you are facing somebody in your guard and you don't know how to ground fight the risk they will pass your guard and go for mount or cross body is a big enough problem that the distraction of trying to poke distant eyes is not one you want.

If you are facing somebody who has mounted you you are in a bad position even if you DO know how to ground fight. And if you don't know how to ground fight and somebody had mounted you you can pretty well kiss you ass goodbye.

[Phil Redmond]

ok im hoping to not start a flame war or anything here, if that happens i will erase this thread. ok for the past five years i've studied xing yi chuan, and i freaking love it, its one of the most effective forms of fighting i've trained in. it has its drawbacks which alot of my previous training has compensated for but its a good system for me and it works for me. ok now that thats out of the way.

i recently been training in wing chun just to see what is it all about, why so many people swear by it like it was jesus christ or something. and you know what i just dont see it. while it is a practical and effective art. it has tons of weakness's. and im not talking about ground fighting or any of that. cause in reality the floor is not someplace you want to be at in new york city;). anyway without getting to specific, i just dont see it. yes its a good art but no it is not the grand ultimate martial art. now there are guys on here who are gonna come at me with all sorts of crap, like oh you havent learned enough yet yadda yadda yadda yackity shmackity, just know also i have two friends who are really good sifus in wing chun. and lets just say what i said before, while i see its efectiveness especially in close range combat, there are alot of places where it needs to be compensated where things need to be added to make it more of an effective fighting form. just my opinion.
Hi, I teach a class in Columbus Park in Chinatown Sat from 3:30 to 4:30. It would be a pleasure for you stop by and see the approach we use.

[Phil Redmond]

Headbutts don't work from the ground.
Eye Gouging is likewise a low percentage move. When somebody is sitting on your chest you don't want to be sticking your arms where they can do things to them.
And biting... biting spreads diseases and it's disgusting... and it's not likely to do more than really **** off the person you bite.

And then they may disabuse you of the notion that people who bite deserve to have teeth.
I see that you're in London. I'll be doing a seminar May 2 in TO. I'll probably be driving past London on my way to Detroit after the seminar. If you have time to get together PM me.
Phil

[Hardwork108]

No.

I don't know about it.

And you wouldn't know about it because your MMA approach is limiting your kung fu understanding. On the other hand if your MMA approach makes you happy then that is fine and good luck. At the end of the day it comes down to wether we are happy with what we practice.


So I say "show me".

And hence "when you are in my neck of the woods" comment? Oh I see...lol,lol,lol.


Talk is cheap.
Specially when you make comments about arts that you don't practice.;)

[Hardwork108]

well i knew there were styles that addressed ground boxing and i know they are grappling. this is not some new secret news.

Can you name me the styles?

Why do you assume that Wing Chun is not among these styles? Because you haven't heard about it yourself? Or none of your "sifu" :rolleyes: friends have said it here?


lol relax i was Kidding.......:rolleyes:

I don't think that you were kidding but I am still trying to enlighten you about kung fu.:D

[Yoshiyahu]

Paraphrasing your statement which are completely the same thing I said about WC!!!

Actually conditioning and the continual sparring / fighting in a live environment is one of the best things about any martial arts style of training. This is because reasonably skilled Wing Chun fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage. Thus Advoiding the ground. An if they go to the ground they can tweak their techniques to get off the ground.

But I do plan to spar at some MMA schools is that good enough? BJJ I don't think they allow kicks and punches against them. It depends on the school If I am wrong please chime in...I never took BJJ obviously.

But here some questions ground fighters!

What are techs to escape armbar lock?

How do you escape gaurd posistion to move to the dominant posistion?

Didn't Bruce Lee do some Jiujitsu too? Wasn't it bruce lee known for biting when he got tangled up. Or did he get his teeth knocked out?

If your teeth are knocked out can't you still bite with your gums...what about the back molars?


Sure there is. You actually go out and spar with these different types of fighters to obtain an idea of what to expect.


You mean you actually have to train in martial arts to be able to fight with them? Geez, and here all along I thought you just had to post on the Internet.


Actually the conditioning and the continual sparring / fighting in a live environment is one of the best things about the MMA style of training. Being an out of shape MA practitioner that doesn't spar or fight and yet thinking your science will protect you is delusional.


Oh, I wouldn't go that far. You seem to present plenty of reasons to ridicule you.


So outside of the fat kid in high school who said "dude get off me", how many personal fights have you had that did or did not go to the ground? Any objective
evidence? Because how you feel usually doesn't dictate how a fight goes.


Why does this flame you? Modern evidence suggests that the strengths of an art have less to do with winning or losing than limiting the weaknesses. This is because reasonably skilled fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage.


This is pretty clear evidence you have zero experience with arm bars. If you are being arm barred you do not have elbows - one is trapped and the other has no leverage to strike with. You don't have knees as you are not in a position to be able to strike with any force with them. You have no target to head butt. You probably could bite the top leg, but the effect of that would probably be to p!ss someone off enough to really crank the arm bar, severely dislocating your elbow. There are effective escapes from this position, none of which has anything to do with what you stated.


"you may not be interested in war, but war might be interested in you"



Go to a BJJ school, challenge them, report back to us what happens with that theory of yours :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

Kid, you're officially an idiot.

[Yoshiyahu]

Kid, you're officially an idiot.


Sir that was rather unkind? was that referring to me by chance?

[Kansuke]

Sir that was rather unkind? was that referring to me by chance?

Not by chance. Very deliberately.

[Mr Punch]

Headbutts don't work from the ground.:eek: :rolleyes: !


The real issue is that, in order to gouge, head butt, etc you need CONTROL... who can hit easier, the guy on top or the guy pinned on the bottom...;)

[AdrianK]

^
hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha. That was great.


Anyways...


But I do plan to spar at some MMA schools is that good enough? BJJ I don't think they allow kicks and punches against them.

The great thing about a good number of mma/bjj schools is, instead of the normal non-confrontational feminine asshats that love to claim they've got black belts in "kung fu" and "Karate", these schools usually have at least a few actual athletes that are pretty well-versed in pain, so I can almost guarantee you that they won't have any problem letting you spar against them with punches and kicks. :|



This is because reasonably skilled Wing Chun fighters

Whats a wing chun fighter anyway?
Since when did any style have a trademark on the way you express your ****ing body? I can trap using some wing chun and southern mantis concepts, then what does it become? Wing Mantis? What the ****?

Stylistic constraints are so ridiculous. You fight as a human being. Absorbing what is useful, no matter the style.



Didn't Bruce Lee do some Jiujitsu too? Wasn't it bruce lee known for biting when he got tangled up. Or did he get his teeth knocked out?

Yeah and he was also known for being well versed in several grappling arts.

[Mr Punch]

This is because reasonably skilled Wing Chun fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage.I assume you are talking about the WC speciality of close range? Which is also one of the grapplers specialities. You are also talking about using fine-motor skills (various aimed strikes to sensitive targets or even openings) against gross-motor skills (wrapping one limb around any part of the body and essentially, falling down)?
Thus Advoiding the groundYou can't avoid what you are standing on. If you don't knock them out on the way in, your theories and you are going down.

An if they go to the ground they can tweak their techniques to get off the ground.The skilled WCer who spends 95% or more of their time on stand-up, and 5% or less on rolling around with someone else who spends 95% or more of their time on stand-up, and 5% or less on rolling around can 'tweak their techniques to get off the ground'? :rolleyes: Not if the bloke who spends 90% of the time on the ground rolling with someone else who spends 90% of their time on the ground wants to stop them.


But I do plan to spar at some MMA schools is that good enough? BJJ I don't think they allow kicks and punches against them.That's nearly good enough. Actually sparring at some (assuming reasonable quality) MMA schools would be good enough. Remember to ask them to include a 'to-the-tap' clause, rather than just letting them go with 'to-the-snap', or you'll get a nasty break.


But here some questions ground fighters!

What are techs to escape armbar lock?

How do you escape gaurd posistion to move to the dominant posistion?Keep asking these kind of questions and you should be able to improve your fighting skills. Ask them of people who are in a position to show, preferably a class.


Didn't Bruce Lee do some Jiujitsu too? Wasn't it bruce lee known for biting when he got tangled up. Or did he get his teeth knocked out?Bruce Lee had maybe one fight, apart from the roof-top debacles. Ever seen any of those?


If your teeth are knocked out can't you still bite with your gums...what about the back molars?You're going to grind them to death? Works on deadly corn-cob attacks. Might work on the soft fruit too, but your stuck by the time you get to pointy sticks.

;) :D

[Mr Punch]

Wait!...

The ghost of Yip Man just channelled the spirits of the Boxer Rebels: they said to look at a couple of threads from 1996 and channel them back their realism.

Where the hell did this dumb-ass thread come from? I dunno, turn my back for five minutes and everyone's gone all retro...

[lkfmdc]

An if they go to the ground they can tweak their techniques to get off the ground.


go test the theory, then get back to us

[Yoshiyahu]

Mr Punch and AdrianK

how do you escape the guard posistion to gain a dominant posistion?

how do you escape arm bar?

[anerlich]

how do you escape the guard posistion to gain a dominant posistion?

I don't know what a "posistion" is. This can't be a typo since you did it twice in one sentence.

You don't "escape" the guard. You sweep or submit from here. Or if striking is OK, kick the cr@p out of the guy.


how do you escape arm bar?

From on top or underneath? Normal or cutting armbar? how are the guy's legs positioned?

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE Bruce Lee:
After a nice altercation on the set with Gene "JUDO" LeBell, Bruce took up grappling.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Here's one from the annals of my local Bay Area martial arts scene. Some time ago (back in the late seventies I believe) Peter Ralston, one of the many noteworthy fighters to have been trained by Wong Jack Man (another one being myself...well, I guess as soon as I decide to fight in MMA anyway), went around fighting in challenge matches at other Bay Area schools. I think 'cause it was mainly him doing the challenging he sort of got a bad rep for this at the time.

Anyway, there was some Wing Chun school in San Fran he went down to. He started sparring some of the students and it was soon apparent that he was a superior fighter than all of those guys. Ralston had pretty awesome Bill Wallace-type kicks and he kept nailing the Wing Chun guys from a relatively safe distance. He also had quick hands and was armed with some good all-around kung fu boxing skills.

The teacher finally told Peter he'd spar him, but that he couldn't use his kicks. I think just out of just sheer confidence or hubris Peter agreed. The fight was soon evened out with the Wing Chun sifu boxing Peter to a stand still. At one point, he got Peter to back up against the wall. Nobody I've talked to is really sure what happened at this point since, I believe the Wing Chun sifu's students were the only ones there to witness the match. The Wing Chun guy claims that he won and Peter claims that he won. From what I've heard, Peter tagged him with what would've been a devastating blow had he used full power. The Wing Chun sifu claims the same I believe. Both men were relatively unhurt so there's always been a lot of room for debate on this one. It could be that they struck each other around the same time. I'm not sure I'll ever find out for sure.

What I took away from the story was that someone who's a good kicker and a good boxer, will usually have a decisive advantage if both fighters have similar attributes. Wing Chun guys are known for their hands, but so are a lot of other martial artists. In terms of traditional MA's, I would pit a Hsing Yi, Tai Chi, Ba Gua or even a Mantis practitioner up against a Wing Chun fighter any day. But, once again, it ultimately comes down to the practitioner themselves. Speed and guts count for a lot.

[punchdrunk]

thats the problem with slap sparring or no contact fighting, who's to say who won. Might as well be having a chi blast battle!

[Yoshiyahu]

thats the problem with slap sparring or no contact fighting, who's to say who won. Might as well be having a chi blast battle!

ha ha...have you guys ever seen Tai Chi guys spar? I would really love to see this!

I saw some garbage on youtube which was basically a chi blast battle where the guys threw imaginary invisible chi balls at each other from four feet away. An the one with the most chi won...it was terrible. Just awful. I was woundering if anyone seen footage of real Tai Chi being used in sparring,tournments, competionts or exhibition. I dont mean push hands either!

[Hardwork108]

ha ha...have you guys ever seen Tai Chi guys spar? I would really love to see this!

I saw some garbage on youtube which was basically a chi blast battle where the guys threw imaginary invisible chi balls at each other from four feet away. An the one with the most chi won...it was terrible. Just awful. I was woundering if anyone seen footage of real Tai Chi being used in sparring,tournments, competionts or exhibition. I dont mean push hands either!


Hello Yoshiyahu,

Here is some tai chi wrestling sparring from the Chen village no less.:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_ZtX9wRdA

[Siu Lum Fighter]

There are San Shou fighters you use the same principles that they practice in Tai Chi. For those who know nothing about what Tai Chi is really supposed to be about, you can kick some serious ass with it. And I'm not talking about imaginary chi blasts or fighting slowly.

At EBM Kung Fu Academy in Oakland they use Tai Chi and those guys are no slouches (three or four national champs, best San Shou team in The Bay next to Cung Le's). I believe Max Chen, another San Shou fighter of note, says he's uses stuff he's learned in Tai Chi in the ring.

My former sifu, Wong Jack Man, used Tai Chi to throw some BIG guys around like they were stuffed animals. Don't underestimate the power of the Grand Ultimate Fist!

[t_niehoff]

Hello Yoshiyahu,

Here is some tai chi wrestling sparring from the Chen village no less.:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_ZtX9wRdA

Here's the Standard Bearer of Chen, no less:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip97t50XbE

[Hardwork108]

Here's the Standard Bearer of Chen, no less:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip97t50XbE

It just goes to show that one can always meet someone superior.

Thank you. Very interesting, never the less.:D

[Yoshiyahu]

How would the Tai Chi guy use that against a Striker like Wing Chun or Muay Thai...would it only be effective against a grappler?

I see takedowns and throws. But basic self defense against kicks and punches?

What would happen against an opponent head hunting for their face?

[Edmund]

How would the Tai Chi guy use that against a Striker like Wing Chun or Muay Thai...would it only be effective against a grappler?

I see takedowns and throws. But basic self defense against kicks and punches?

What would happen against an opponent head hunting for their face?

They can clinch and throw. Very effective against a standup fighter.

More taiji wrestling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw&feature=related

[Hardwork108]

They can clinch and throw. Very effective against a standup fighter.

More taiji wrestling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw&feature=related

They can also punch, kick, knee and elbow. There are many sides to tai chi.:)

[Hardwork108]

How would the Tai Chi guy use that against a Striker like Wing Chun or Muay Thai...would it only be effective against a grappler?

I see takedowns and throws. But basic self defense against kicks and punches?

What would happen against an opponent head hunting for their face?


Tai chi has blocks and evasive tactics as well as hand and leg strikes.:) Tai chi is one of the richest TCMAs around.:)

[taai gihk yahn]

regardless of what taiji "has", unless it's trained in a manner that taps its resources, it really doesn't mean squat; that said, as far as technique per se, it doesn't have anything particularly unique that you aren't going to find in other TCMA styles that work standing clinch / grappling / take-downs / throws; same w/striking / kicking, although as far as how these are applied, I'd say that they come from a perspective that is relatively "real" (e.g. - in the form, the way it uses most kicks is low-line and from angles that make sense - that is, whoever put the forms together did understand about what would be advantageous in a "real" fight when using the legs);

the other thing that it "has" is the way it trains sensitivity, structural fluidity and power issuance, but again, it's a question of how these things are trained: most (Yang) taiji was, by design, eviscerated some time ago;

it is possible to "reverse engineer" the form, and when you do, you can see the remnants of what was once there - but you need to do some research into parallel systems (e.g. - Chen); for example, you need to look at footwork - as it stands, directly applying things the way they are in the Yang 108 is going to be an exercise in futility - a lot of the oblique angles have been straight-lined, a lot of the techniques have been devoid of those little details that make all the difference in terms of "training" things like listening, sticking, etc.

taiji is, mostly, an empty husk from a martial perspective; when you encounter the essence of it, it certainly has things of value - but you can find these things in other TCMA styles without having to do nearly as much archaeological leg work...

[Edmund]

regardless of what taiji "has", unless it's trained in a manner that taps its resources, it really doesn't mean squat; that said, as far as technique per se, it doesn't have anything particularly unique that you aren't going to find in other TCMA styles that work standing clinch / grappling / take-downs / throws; same w/striking / kicking....


They would probably claim some uniqueness but as the clips show when push hands is done against realistic resistance it is a form of wrestling that most grapplers would identify with.

[taai gihk yahn]

They would probably claim some uniqueness but as the clips show when push hands is done against realistic resistance it is a form of wrestling that most grapplers would identify with.

ding ding ding! give that man a kewpie doll!

actually, if you look at skilled sumo, you will see a lot of the same attributes...

[TenTigers]

taai gihk yan, check your pm's

[Kansuke]

Tai chi has blocks and evasive tactics as well as hand and leg strikes.:) Tai chi is one of the richest TCMAs around.:)



Ah, was that your 'secret' kungfu in London?

[Phil Redmond]

ok im hoping to not start a flame war or anything here, if that happens i will erase this thread. ok for the past five years i've studied xing yi chuan, and i freaking love it, its one of the most effective forms of fighting i've trained in. it has its drawbacks which alot of my previous training has compensated for but its a good system for me and it works for me. ok now that thats out of the way.

i recently been training in wing chun just to see what is it all about, why so many people swear by it like it was jesus christ or something. and you know what i just dont see it. while it is a practical and effective art. it has tons of weakness's. and im not talking about ground fighting or any of that. cause in reality the floor is not someplace you want to be at in new york city;). anyway without getting to specific, i just dont see it. yes its a good art but no it is not the grand ultimate martial art. now there are guys on here who are gonna come at me with all sorts of crap, like oh you havent learned enough yet yadda yadda yadda yackity shmackity, just know also i have two friends who are really good sifus in wing chun. and lets just say what i said before, while i see its efectiveness especially in close range combat, there are alot of places where it needs to be compensated where things need to be added to make it more of an effective fighting form. just my opinion.

Your profile says that you're in NYC. I offered to show you my effective approach to WC. I haven't heard anything from you yet. I'm in the city every Sat around 3:30pml. I can be reached at sifu@wingchunkwoon.com.
P Redmond

[Phil Redmond]

btw I never say that any martial art is the end all be all. It just happens that I can fight with WC against resisting opponents from other systems and have done so successfully.

[doug maverick]

hey phil, actually i practice wing chun privately with a friend of mine on sunday for four or five hours in Brooklyn, never said that wing chun wasnt effective or a good art. i was just saying there is this stigma i run into with wing chun guys(my friend not included) that wing chun is the greatest their is and thats that. its like BJJ people they are the same way.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

taai gihk yahn
It's true what you say about Yang Style. But actually, going back to it's inception it was always a fully functional martial art. I remember after learning the "easy" way of doing it that focused more on the health benefits, my Si Hing taught me the original way to do it that our sifu used to teach. The Fair Lady Works The Shuttles are different (or there's more of them), more clearing movements, an extra crescent kick and other aspects of it that seem to emphasis the fighting techniques of the system. Of course, it can be trained in such a way that you're using it for fighting too.

As far as the stigma with Wing Chun guys, there generally is one. Most Wing Chun classes I've visited have all these guys who seem to immediately size me up when I tell them I practice kung fu. They seem to want to convince me of the "superiority" of their system or something. This is a lot more prevalent in Wing Chun schools than others I've noticed. I generally don't get this when I walk into, say, a Hung Gar school or a Choy Lay Fut school. Maybe it's because my Northern Shaolin is more similar to theirs, I don't know. I think these guys pick this stuff up from their teachers and the mass media. I guess it's 'cause it's "The greatest fighting system in the world!! Also, the most effective!!":rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Because Wing Chun in general has become a religion which have many cults.

and every cult believe they know "God" better then others and other cult within Wing Chun.


The mentality is sick and will continous to produce sick minded people if not cured.



I really hope the Movie Ip Man brings people back to reality to know what is the vision behind the art.


I expect those who disagree and those who always believe WCK is fighting and fantasy human are like animal just to keep survive cult to verbally attack me.

That is fine for me. because this question needs to raise to lead to a balance mentality and not produce tons of extremist WC cultis.


Watch the Ip Man the movie, learn what is WCK is about. For me, the point make is not towards Japanese but toward any race or nation who mis applied power or thinking fighting is the ultimate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OGK-pIMkw&feature=related

and Stop the stupidity and ignorance like a frog sit under the well and thinking the sky is only as big as the well's opening which trapping the frog.

ofcause the frog never realized it is within the well, trap, and close minded.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Nice clip. But how come every time there's some fight on a lei tai in a big budget action movie, the hero just barely keeps from falling off by defying the laws of physics some how. I noticed this in the movie Fearless too. :rolleyes:

Besides that, it's a good movie though. Speaking of Donnie Yen (and Tai Chi), here's one of my favorite all-time roles of his (the training scenes in part six are friggin' hilarious too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_08EouVTA&feature=related
Oh, the voice of the teacher is Casey Kasem which also makes the over-dubbed version of this one a gem.

[Hendrik]

Nice clip. But how come every time there's some fight on a lei tai in a big budget action movie, the hero just barely keeps from falling off by defying the laws of physics some how. I noticed this in the movie Fearless too. :rolleyes:

Besides that, it's a good movie though. Speaking of Donnie Yen (and Tai Chi), here's one of my favorite all-time roles of his (the training scenes in part six are friggin' hilarious too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_08EouVTA&feature=related
Oh, the voice of the teacher is Casey Kasem which also makes the over-dubbed version of this one a gem.



It is not about the movie but the message get across. right?

and, one must be able to differentiate between reality and the movie idols, IMHO.

[taai gihk yahn]

taai gihk yahn
It's true what you say about Yang Style. But actually, going back to it's inception it was always a fully functional martial art.
that's because Yang Lou Chan actually had to fight for a living working as a security guard;


I remember after learning the "easy" way of doing it that focused more on the health benefits, my Si Hing taught me the original way to do it that our sifu used to teach.
yes, we have different "versions" - the "sanitized" one that resembles the typical 108; then there's the one w/the jump kicks and spin sweeps...


The Fair Lady Works The Shuttles are different (or there's more of them)
most forms have 4; we have 8, although we call the move Four Corners (well, how many corners does a 4 walled room actually have?)- it is supposedly derived from staff / spear work;


more clearing movements,
meaning?


an extra crescent kick
where is your "extra" crescent kick? (we have two that you don't usually see in other forms: one after White Snake Spits out Tongue and one in Twin Lotus Kick - which most forms do w/only one kick but still call "Twin"...)


and other aspects of it that seem to emphasis the fighting techniques of the system. Of course, it can be trained in such a way that you're using it for fighting too.
true, although the "fighting" training that my teacher has shown me (which he doesn't emphasize given the nature of the student body being more "health" oriented), is more "resistance" oriented, both in terms of pushing against things like a heavy bag and the wall, and in terms of partnered work as well: from a contemporary perspective, it's training fast twitch explosiveness in response to tactile perception of what the opponent "gives" you;

what is your Yang lineage / background? ours is a non-familial (non-Cheng Fu, basically) "unofficial" version;

[Phil Redmond]

hey phil, actually i practice wing chun privately with a friend of mine on sunday for four or five hours in Brooklyn, never said that wing chun wasnt effective or a good art. i was just saying there is this stigma i run into with wing chun guys(my friend not included) that wing chun is the greatest their is and thats that. its like BJJ people they are the same way.
Well maybe some Sat you can check us out in Columbus Park.