Is Wing Chun Useless?

[Yoshiyahu]

Is Wing Chun alone only good enough to fight untrained fighters.

Is Wing Chun alone incapable of defeating fighter who is skilled in both Muay Thai and Wrestling?

Lets say some has been studing and fighting with Wing Chun alone for twenty years. Would it be safe to say that if that WC fighter would loose if he got in a bar fight with skilled MMA fighter or someone who studies both boxing and BJJ?


Whats your take is Pure Wing Chun alone not capable of standing up to Mix Martial Art fighters?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Why is the Wing Chun man fighting untrained fighters? Wouldn't it be the case that the more time he spends fighting trained fighters, the better he gets (at fighting trained fighters).

What makes a man skilled in Muay Thai and Wrestling unbeatable?

What is it that makes a Wing Chun man incapable of dealing with MMA, BJJ guy (insert any art...)?

Why is the presumption in favour of the MMA/BJJ guy?

Presumably, if someone's mindset was such that they found limitation within one art (Wing Chun... insert any art), that he would then choose to do something else?

FWIW, many chunners (on and off this forum) cross-train.

Finally, I don't think that DOING Wing Chun is useless, although discussing it may well be. ;)

[Hardwork108]

Is Wing Chun alone only good enough to fight untrained fighters.
That is a myth that is being promoted about Wing Chun (and many other traditional martial arts) by the MA "modernists". The fact is that they don't know what they are talking about.


Is Wing Chun alone incapable of defeating fighter who is skilled in both Muay Thai and Wrestling?
Of course it is. A lot of the time the difference between winning and losing is one good punch. It is all in wether one is actually training Wing Chun holystically; how he trains and who he trains with, meaning wether his sifu is the real deal or some run of the mill "kung fu-ist".


Lets say some has been studing and fighting with Wing Chun alone for twenty years. Would it be safe to say that if that WC fighter would loose if he got in a bar fight with skilled MMA fighter or someone who studies both boxing and BJJ?

I don't see anyone who has been training any of the major kung fu styles for 20 years, the way they were meant to be practiced worrying about MMA-ists in a bar fight. Perhaps in a ring and sports environment but not in a real fight.

When I say practicing kung fu the way it was meant to be practiced then I mean in Wing Chun's case, proper understanding of the concepts and principles; the application of this principles in real combat and all the ranges, INCLUDING the ground; Iron Palm training; Chin-na training; contact fighting training; sensitivity and "listening" training and conditioning.



Whats your take is Pure Wing Chun alone not capable of standing up to Mix Martial Art fighters?

Yes pure wing chun capable of standing up to Mix Martial Art fighters in the street. In the ring it is a different story which means the Wing Chun exponent would then have to adapt his training to sports.

Again, you need to practise this art in a complete way and not the McWing Chun and/or b@stardized versions you see nowadays (thanks to the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom) all over the Western world including this forum.

[anerlich]

Is Wing Chun alone only good enough ...

You really have issues with reading those historical threads, don't you?

[Edmund]

Lets say some has been studing and fighting with Wing Chun alone for twenty years. Would it be safe to say that if that WC fighter would loose if he got in a bar fight with skilled MMA fighter or someone who studies both boxing and BJJ?


Of course not. The WC guy could do all sorts of street applications that are familiar to WC people:

He could throw his strawberry daiquiri in the MMAers face then stab him with the little umbrella. Lethal at certain acupuncture points.

Then there's the Iron Teeth biting techniques. For the 50 year WC practitioners, it's the Iron Gums. Also lethal (except for the gums one).

In bars, the WC guy often has access to the 6 1/2 point pool que. Lots of experience there. For YKS guys, certain bars have the lethal throwing darts comps on Wednesdays at 8:30. Might not be so good on Thursday/Friday/Saturday, dart board has to be packed up because it's live music.

[Violent Designs]

Depends on if there are sharks or not on teh street . . . . .

[Yoshiyahu]

I love your energy Hardwork108 and Wu Wei Wu.

It seems today Marial Artists See WC not capable of winning against someone who is skilled in both Standing Fighting and Sprawling fighting.

Very interesting though.

I wounder how UFC fighters Fedor Emelianenko, B.J. PENN, NATHAN DIAZ, DEMIAN MAIA and THALES LEITES like would fair against Tom Wong in a challenge match?

Do you think they are a match for one on one against Wong Nim?

http://www.tomwongwingchun.com/

Tom Wong has defeated black belts in Gracie Jiujitsu with pure Wing Chun only.

[Edmund]

Depends on if there are sharks or not on teh street . . . . .

Or dogs with bees in their mouths, and when they bark, they shoot bees at you.

[Vajramusti]

We have gone over this issue in the past repeatedly and ad nauseam. You can get any opinion you want in past threads.

FWIW, IMO- wing chun doesnt fight anyone. Individuals do. But a person with sound training on wing chun who didn't learn it from the net, from videos, magazines, or an ocasional seminar or two, and who has practiced and trained well does not need to mix styles. You will get other opinions.

Most of the issues you have raised in recnt threads has been gone over again and again and again.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I am newbie. Plus I am sure there are new people here. So Its good to hear new opinions and give some on the issue since I have not taking part in old thread which is pretty much dead now.

I dont see it on page two!!!!



We have gone over this issue in the past repeatedly and ad nauseam. You can get any opinion you want in past threads.

FWIW, IMO- wing chun doesnt fight anyone. Individuals do. But a person with sound training on wing chun who didn't learn it from the net, from videos, magazines, or an ocasional seminar or two, and who has practiced and trained well does not need to mix styles. You will get other opinions.

Most of the issues you have raised in recnt threads has been gone over again and again and again.

joy chaudhuri

[Paul T England]

wing chun basic training is not easy to put into practice. You need visualisation, guts, physical conditioning, experience and a good teacher to giude you.

Every system has potential and only a fool would think otherwise.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tom Wong has defeated black belts in Gracie Jiujitsu with pure Wing Chun only.

Who has he defeated?

[Ultimatewingchun]

What's useless, Yoshiyahu, is your constant and relentless attitude that "somehow"...."someway"...

WING CHUN MUST be made to work efficiently (ie.- the wing chun fighter will always come out the winner) in situations where wing chun obviously has its limitations.


LOL. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well I am newbie.

Yes, yes you are.

[mjw]

Wing Chun can win just like the other can win, it just depends on the situation.
As for Wong his stuff looks impressive however it looks like he's not a WCK purist then again who is? Take in what works for you and throw out what doesn't.

[m1k3]

Yoshiyahu,

Why are you worried about this? I used to study Wing Chun and the school I went to closed. I tried BJJ and I liked it so I stuck with it. No big deal, I still work some of my Wing Chun on my own because I enjoy it and I consider myself a hobbyist BJJ player who likes learning new stuff and getting a chance to roll once or twice a week.

Unless you are training to be a fighter, which most people aren't, do your art, enjoy your self and realize it gives you an advantage that you wouldn't have had if you didn't train.

If you don't want to get in fights one of the best rules is to avoid places with large amounts alcohol and testosterone.

Is not a contest about who has the best MA, its about what your MA gives to you and whether or not you are happy with how you train.

Go now grasshopper, the sun is warm, the sky is blue and there is still much chi sao to be played.

[CFT]

m1k3, that is a very sunny outlook you have. Good on you!

[lkfmdc]

Tom Wong has defeated black belts in Gracie Jiujitsu with pure Wing Chun only.

who has he defeated (AGAIN)

[Vajramusti]

Who is he and why does it matter what he did or didnt do?

joy chaudhuri

[lkfmdc]

why does it matter what he did or didnt do?

joy chaudhuri

pretty simple joy, because he claims to do something unusual he should be able to back it up with details

or, how about this, I have beaten badly five very famous and respected wing chun sifu, made them all cry, I'm not telling you who, but they are very famous and I embarassed all of them, don't ask me for details, but it's true, just trust me

[m1k3]

pretty simple joy, because he claims to do something unusual he should be able to back it up with details

or, how about this, I have beaten badly five very famous and respected wing chun sifu, made them all cry, I'm not telling you who, but they are very famous and I embarassed all of them, don't ask me for details, but it's true, just trust me


Was one of them Emin B? You can tell me, I won't tell any else, I promise.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who is he and why does it matter what he did or didnt do?

joy chaudhuri

Claiming to do something and not doing it is fraud, no?

[chusauli]

WCK is not useless, but YMMV.

At least most of the time its entertaining.

[Vajramusti]

Tom Wong hasn't claimed anything on this thread.
Yoshiyahu just stirring the waters.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tom Wong hasn't claimed anything on this thread.
Yoshiyahu just stirring the waters.

joy chaudhuri

Actually, a valid point, you are quite correct.

[couch]

Is Wing Chun alone only good enough to fight untrained fighters.

Is Wing Chun alone incapable of defeating fighter who is skilled in both Muay Thai and Wrestling?

Lets say some has been studing and fighting with Wing Chun alone for twenty years. Would it be safe to say that if that WC fighter would loose if he got in a bar fight with skilled MMA fighter or someone who studies both boxing and BJJ?


Whats your take is Pure Wing Chun alone not capable of standing up to Mix Martial Art fighters?

For me - it comes down to one thing: trust.

Do you trust your skills? If not - train harder.
Do you trust yourself? If not - dig deeper.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For me - it comes down to one thing: trust.

Do you trust your skills? If not - train harder.
Do you trust yourself? If not - dig deeper.

The training and the digging is only part of it, the testing is vital.
And if one doesn't believe in "sport" testing than there is still 'real world" testing that one can do, I know I did.
There was a point where I questioned wither my experience in full contact sport fighting was "valid" for the street.
What did I do?
I got a job bouncing and I had many a chance to test my skills in the "real world".

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree. I have been doing WC for a while now. To me its one of the best styles for me. Thats my personal opinion. It kinda of grew on me over time. As for being worried about this. I find it strange that some people believe that if someone practices just one art or only striking arts they will incapable of defeating a grappler or ground fighter? This perplexing to me. After ground fighting is just another art to fight and all arts have weaknesses. The one who is more skilled at exploiting their opponents weaknesses will win. Sometimes you will know the weakness of hand. Other times you will find out as you feel your opponent out by contact. So far you message is very very enlighten on this thread m1k3 thanks for posting a response....


Yoshiyahu,

Why are you worried about this? I used to study Wing Chun and the school I went to closed. I tried BJJ and I liked it so I stuck with it. No big deal, I still work some of my Wing Chun on my own because I enjoy it and I consider myself a hobbyist BJJ player who likes learning new stuff and getting a chance to roll once or twice a week.

Unless you are training to be a fighter, which most people aren't, do your art, enjoy your self and realize it gives you an advantage that you wouldn't have had if you didn't train.

If you don't want to get in fights one of the best rules is to avoid places with large amounts alcohol and testosterone.

Is not a contest about who has the best MA, its about what your MA gives to you and whether or not you are happy with how you train.

Go now grasshopper, the sun is warm, the sky is blue and there is still much chi sao to be played.

Well I have read some articles where people who have studied various ground fighting arts and striking arts were defeated by Tom Wong. An later became his students. I don't know if he defeated any UFC fighters. But the same can be said about most Martial Artist Sifu's and Sensi's

Most highly skilled Martial Artist do not participate in UFC or MMA competitions.


who has he defeated (AGAIN)


Who is he and why does it matter what he did or didnt do?

joy chaudhuri


Tom Wong hasn't claimed anything on this thread.
Yoshiyahu just stirring the waters.

joy chaudhuri


Your Post Couch is great indeed. Thank you for posting...

For me - it comes down to one thing: trust.

Do you trust your skills? If not - train harder.
Do you trust yourself? If not - dig deeper.


Thank you again MJW wounderful just wounderful!!!



Wing Chun can win just like the other can win, it just depends on the situation.
As for Wong his stuff looks impressive however it looks like he's not a WCK purist then again who is? Take in what works for you and throw out what doesn't.

Yes I am newbie to the forum I just signed up this past feburary...what about how did you become unbannable?


Yes, yes you are.

Sorry, Ultimate WC to upset you. I never said WC will always come out the winner. A beginner who has only 10 classes of WC can not be expected to defeat one of the gracies? But someone who has more hours of study in their art and has a higher level of skill than the Gracies can defeat the gracies with mere WC only. Also other factors play a part. Injuries,Mistakes or you just had a bad day an lost the fight.

I am not saying only WC is ultimate fighting style. What I am saying is someone with a higher skill level of Judo will defeat a BJJ fighter. Someone who has a higer skill level in Tiger Claw will defeat a MMA fighter. Some who skill level is higher than Muay Thai Fighter will defeat that Thai Fighter. The main factor is skill. If they both have equal skill than smarter one wins. If they are both cunning and strategically sound then the stronger one will win. If they are equal on all those points the one who is fastest will win. But essentially it boils down to who has the most skill? I don't see a Yellow Belt BJJ fighter defeating a Ten Degree black belt in shotokan Karate. Especially if the Shotokan guy has uses his art in and out of the ring!!!!

Again Ultimate Wing Chun, very sad post here. I am sorry i didnt please you. I cant please everyone. Sorry to insight you to write so negatively...May Yahweh bless you with peace of mind Amein!


What's useless, Yoshiyahu, is your constant and relentless attitude that "somehow"...."someway"...

WING CHUN MUST be made to work efficiently (ie.- the wing chun fighter will always come out the winner) in situations where wing chun obviously has its limitations.


LOL. :rolleyes:

[chusauli]

The training and the digging is only part of it, the testing is vital.
And if one doesn't believe in "sport" testing than there is still 'real world" testing that one can do, I know I did.
There was a point where I questioned wither my experience in full contact sport fighting was "valid" for the street.
What did I do?
I got a job bouncing and I had many a chance to test my skills in the "real world".

And as a bouncer, you have to carefully tread a line between keen discussion and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

Most skillful bouncers show that you do not have to resort to use martial arts in 99.9% of the time.

Heck, when I did handgun training, you learn to be polite always in an armed society.

I guess again we have to have the discussion of lower 3 chakra life orientation versus the upper 4.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well I have read some articles where people who have studied various ground fighting arts and striking arts were defeated by Tom Wong. An later became his students. I don't know if he defeated any UFC fighters. But the same can be said about most Martial Artist Sifu's and Sensi's


You said he defeated BJJ Black belts, those were your words.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And as a bouncer, you have to carefully tread a line between keen discussion and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

Most skillful bouncers show that you do not have to resort to use martial arts in 99.9% of the time.

Heck, when I did handgun training, you learn to be polite always in an armed society.

I guess again we have to have the discussion of lower 3 chakra life orientation versus the upper 4.

A very thin line at times Sifu Chu, too thin.
I have seen my share of abuses and at times felt the urge to do just that.
I can gratefully say that the vast majority of times, talking resolved almost every issue.
Unfortunately, not all of them.

[lkfmdc]

Tom Wong hasn't claimed anything on this thread.
Yoshiyahu just stirring the waters.

joy chaudhuri

we didn't call up Tom Wong, we posted the question here in this thread, and since Yoshiyahu made the claim , HE should be able to back it up no? :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

we didn't call up Tom Wong, we posted the question here in this thread, and since Yoshiyahu made the claim , HE should be able to back it up no? :rolleyes:

yoshi should have to prove it. tom wong is probably like wtf i never said that.

[lkfmdc]

Well I have read some articles where people who have studied various ground fighting arts and striking arts were defeated by Tom Wong.



links to said articles? :rolleyes:




Most highly skilled Martial Artist do not participate in UFC or MMA competitions.


I'd bet good money on either GSP or Anderson Silva vs ANY wing chun person

[lkfmdc]

yoshi should have to prove it. tom wong is probably like wtf i never said that.

that's the "HE" I was talking about :rolleyes:

[dnovice]

Wing chun and a good mind is whats important. This being said, it is good to know what your oponent is trying to do to an extent.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Yoshi-who is your sifu in wing chun? You seem to have alot of questions that could be easily answered by discovering for yourself or asking your sifu and classmates. If your a complete novice id understand all the questions but youve said yourself youve dont WC for quite awhile. The questions you ask and discussions you start IMO are things i did while less than a year into the chun.

Im in springfield if you ever come this way let me know if you want to chi sau ect

[anerlich]

I don't see a Yellow Belt BJJ fighter defeating a Ten Degree black belt in shotokan Karate.

Are there any Ten Degree [sic] Shotokan black belts?

In most BJJ schools only the kids have yellow belts. Usual belt colours in BJJ are white, blue, purple, brown and black.

I want to help you stop saying things that betray your ignorance, though it's like trying to stop a tsunami with a paper cup.

One of the few things we agree on is that m1k3's post was good. Pretty much my attitude to WC and BJJ.

[Hardwork108]

Are there any Ten Degree [sic] Shotokan black belts?

There are but they are kinda old.

Plus, no need to be rude to the Yoshiyahu. He has been nothing but polite in his posts.

[Yoshiyahu]

I asked questions to get thought provoking answers...Also I enjoy just have discussions an hearing different opinions. I hate to just dish out information..


I have been doing WC for years? i didn't say:
If your a complete novice id understand all the questions but youve said yourself youve dont WC for quite awhile.

However I am new to this forum. many questions or threads I have started I have did before on other forums before this one. I come on here to enjoy conversation of other WC guys. I how ever if I offended you katsu so sorry for that...its not my intentions. i seem to be stepping on toes today...i guess WC vs BJJ is a touchy subject...kinda like Kung Fu vs Karate or Karate vs Tae Kwon Do back in the day.

Check this link out concerning opinions on Shotokan Karate...Most say they are ten degrees there...

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924113430AA4yHY6



Once black belt is achieved, there are different dan test or degrees for black belt instead of notches. There are 10 dan's of black belt in Shotokan karate. ...


http://www.kumitekid.com/page_11.html

I got this from How Many Black Belt Degrees in Shotokan Karate (google it)


Yoshi-who is your sifu in wing chun? You seem to have alot of questions that could be easily answered by discovering for yourself or asking your sifu and classmates. If your a complete novice id understand all the questions but youve said yourself youve dont WC for quite awhile. The questions you ask and discussions you start IMO are things i did while less than a year into the chun.

Im in springfield if you ever come this way let me know if you want to chi sau ect

Sorry for my ignorance..I have never taking shotokan karate...I know people who have but I have not...

Check this link out concerning opinions on Shotokan Karate...Most say they are ten degrees there...

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924113430AA4yHY6



Once black belt is achieved, there are different dan test or degrees for black belt instead of notches. There are 10 dan's of black belt in Shotokan karate. ...


http://www.kumitekid.com/page_11.html

I got this from How Many Black Belt Degrees in Shotokan Karate (google it)

I must have heard someone say something about tenth dan degree befor I don't remember again excuse my ignorance. I am enjoying conversating with you guys. Please do not be offended?





Are there any Ten Degree [sic] Shotokan black belts?

In most BJJ schools only the kids have yellow belts. Usual belt colours in BJJ are white, blue, purple, brown and black.

I want to help you stop saying things that betray your ignorance, though it's like trying to stop a tsunami with a paper cup.

One of the few things we agree on is that m1k3's post was good. Pretty much my attitude to WC and BJJ.

[Hardwork108]

i guess WC vs BJJ is a touchy subject

It shouldn't be a touchy subject in a KUNG FU forum but unfortunately it seems that most people who post here are MMA-ists rather than genuine kung fu practitioners and that is why they get offended.;)


Check this link out concerning opinions on Shotokan Karate...Most say they are ten degrees there...

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924113430AA4yHY6





http://www.kumitekid.com/page_11.html

I got this from How Many Black Belt Degrees in Shotokan Karate (google it




Sorry for my ignorance..I have never taking shotokan karate...I know people who have but I have not...

Check this link out concerning opinions on Shotokan Karate...Most say they are ten degrees there...

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924113430AA4yHY6


http://www.kumitekid.com/page_11.html

I got this from How Many Black Belt Degrees in Shotokan Karate (google it)

I must have heard someone say something about tenth dan degree befor I don't remember again excuse my ignorance. I am enjoying conversating with you guys. Please do not be offended?
Don't worry about the facts about Shotokan as many people here do not have their facts as regards authentic kung fu training and this is supposed to be a kung fu forum, let alone getting their facts about authentic karate...lol.

YOU ARE RIGHT: Shotokan karate does have 10 dans except some "new" and "improved" Western Mc Karate versions that may have more than 20 dans (whatever sells, right?)...lol.

The related Shotokai (Egami) style of karate has only 5 dans.

Yoshiyahu, you have not insulted anyone and if anyone is offended by your posts then that is their problem as you have been nothing but polite in your posts.:)

[anerlich]

I asked questions to get thought provoking answers

You need to ask thought provoking questions, preferably those trhat haven't been asked before in those dreaded old threads.


I hate to just dish out information..

That hasn't happened so far.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes Hardwork thankyou. For your kindness. Many people don't take rejection or disagreement well. I have done my best to remain humble and not lash out at idiotic responses. But everyone is different. Had I been 18 or 19 now with only three years of WC under my belt I might have said some outlandish things to some of the posters...lol...Yes I see today ever one wants to add Japanese arts to their chinese arts? Its nothing wrong with it. But I do realize that various kung fu styles have ground fighting like mongolian wrestling,ground mantis and shaishou (wrong spelling please forgive). I don't have all the facts. And I am not best fighter on earth either. Defeating me in a fight is small feat by my estimation. But I study WC because I love it. I don't have phyiscal confortations every day. Nor do I live in area where I have defend my life everyday. But I am looking forward to meeting MA's in my area an fighting with them on regular basis informally. But yes people shouldn't be offended but they are. Here lies the problem. They have a point to prove or axe to bear with me. But me I am on the forum for fun. Because I love discussing WC and hearing people discuss their experiences and what they learn from WC training. Nothing wrong with MMA or Wrestling or groundfighting. But I care about hearing about ground fighting as about as much as you see me posting in Grappling forums. I rather here about pure WC being used successfully against many different styles of fighters including ground fighters. But not many on here have real confidence in their WC,Karate,Muay Thai, or any other art as their main and primary style. Most people feel they need to supplement another art into their system of fighting instead of adapting to their weaknesses.

There is always a way to adapt. If you are a smaller guy you can not go an get longer legs...No you have to adapt. If you are fighting a bigger opponent you can go an put on 200lbs so you can be the same weight can you? Atleast not with out having some health issues. If your fighting a younger fighter can you take off they years you have aged? No you must adapt! Now you can add another style you learn many different fighting styles. But you can at best utilize two styles equally as well. One style better than two. An of course three styles you not have mastery in any of them but you will pull what works for you out of each style. Thus having a mesh of a style! But the best thing to do is to adapt. Or you can try to study a little from each style so you can be aware of some of their strategy. But in reality you can never totally know all your enemies secrets. If you have ten enemies. One is Judo master,another Muay Thai master, another a boxer,another Bak Mei fighter, another a hung gar fighter, another footbal player,another a college wrestler,another monkey fighter and another a xing yi fighter and another a tai chi fighter an so on. Could you really learn all those arts so you can know your enemy?

But you can cross train two arts more successfully than three. In my opinion. But of course mastery will be easier in one...Like the movie the five deadly venoms. There was a kid who learn all five styles. But since he didn't specialize in any one style he didn't have the strenths(Kung) the other five deadly venoms had. Because they totally mastered their one style. He had a mix of all five but no real specialization in any one of them.

But think you for your opinion...It well taking...I know many people will crucify me for my statements but so be it. I am quirky guy kinda of a controversial at times. So I am use to it.


It shouldn't be a touchy subject in a KUNG FU forum but unfortunately it seems that most people who post here are MMA-ists rather than genuine kung fu practitioners and that is why they get offended.;)


Don't worry about the facts about Shotokan as many people here do not have their facts as regards authentic kung fu training and this is supposed to be a kung fu forum, let alone getting their facts about authentic karate...lol.

YOU ARE RIGHT: Shotokan karate does have 10 dans except some "new" and "improved" Western Mc Karate versions that may have more than 20 dans (whatever sells, right?)...lol.

The related Shotokai (Egami) style of karate has only 5 dans.

Yoshiyahu, you have not insulted anyone and if anyone is offended by your posts then that is their problem as you have been nothing but polite in your posts.:)


I am a newbie to the forum so those old threads I am not aware of. But if you don't care for my thread than why respond or post on it. If you have before in another thread. Threads I don't care for i never post in...




You need to ask thought provoking questions, preferably those trhat haven't been asked before in those dreaded old threads.



That hasn't happened so far.

[lkfmdc]

So, basicly, you made a false claim, got called on it, and now want us all to forget it ever happened? :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

So, basicly, you made a false claim, got called on it, and now want us all to forget it ever happened? :rolleyes:


we didn't call up Tom Wong, we posted the question here in this thread, and since Yoshiyahu made the claim , HE should be able to back it up no? :rolleyes:



yoshi should have to prove it. tom wong is probably like wtf i never said that.

Its weird I posted my respons on your statments twice so far....an both times it did not get posted for some reason!!!



Tom Wong:

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-jeet-kune-do-sum-neng.html


This Guy is trained in Ground Fighting

I have studied martial arts for almost 30 years under many famous grandmasters from, Karate, Hapkido, Jujitsu, JKD and Wing Chun.


The guy who studied Jujitsu and Hapkido is speaking about Tom Wong!!!


He told me that practicing the forms alone would not make me understand the priciples and applications of Wing Chun. He also tested my sensitivity with his hands attached to mine. I was not able to sense or block his punches. Even though he had told me in advance where he would try to hit me. He did the same thing to every one I knew. It puzzled that I couldn't do the same thing he did to me. Out of frustration and curiosity, I suggested we go under a freeway for an all out sparring match.

Since I was at my prime physical state, ten years older, heavier and bigger than him, I thought I had every bit of an advantage of winning the sparring contest. But in no time I became his punching bag. It went beyond my power and comprehension that he could generate such power and throw me in every direction. All I could see was the sky turning upside down. There was a blackout and from there on I couldn't remember a thing.


Sum Nung Too even though he is deceased now:

http://www.w1ng.com/sum-nung-master-of-wing-chun/


To further this idea, Yuen Kay-San next set Sum Nung up to face a well-known local wrestler. This opponent proved wilier and instead of attacking directly, he sought to fake out Sum Nung with feints. When their bridges finally touched, Sum was initially in a disadvantageous position and his opponent moved quickly to tackle him. Sum’s reflexes took over, however, and he cleared the wrestler’s grappling attempt and at the same time struck the man in the flank, sending him to the ground.


There is another encounter I can't remeber what Sifu did it. But he fought some challengers at his Kwoon. Some of which were collegiate wrestlers. They were thrown to the flor too and complained about WC is not suppose to have throws.

Here is another encounter with Tom Wong:

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/tom-wong-wing-chun-bio.html


Master Wong (a Wudong Chi Kung master 8th Level Shaolin Chi-Gung, 11th Level Taoist Chi-Gung), used Chi to immobilize several wrestlers at once.

[lkfmdc]

Its weird I posted my respons on your statments twice so far....an both times it did not get posted for some reason!!!



:rolleyes:




This Guy is trained in Ground Fighting



About as f-in vague and unspecific as you can get. What kind of "ground fighting"? "jiu jitus"? Classical Japanese stand up or BJJ? Who did he study with? Does he have any rank?

I studied Tai Chi for a week once, does that make me a tai chi master? :rolleyes:





Yuen Kay-San next set Sum Nung up to face a well-known local wrestler



more vague, non specific crap :rolleyes:




Master Wong (a Wudong Chi Kung master 8th Level Shaolin Chi-Gung, 11th Level Taoist Chi-Gung), used Chi to immobilize several wrestlers at once.



of course! he used CHI to immobilize SEVERAL wrestlers AT ONCE :rolleyes:

dear lord, are these people real?

[AdrianK]

Master Wong (a Wudong Chi Kung master 8th Level Shaolin Chi-Gung, 11th Level Taoist Chi-Gung), used Chi to immobilize several wrestlers at once.

Using "Chi" to immobilize people is a mental trick performed by plenty of cultists and magicians too.

Its never, ever, been shown to be anything more than that.

And James Randi will give you $100,000 if you can prove otherwise.

[lkfmdc]

These guys are pretty smart to not list the addresses of their schools on that web site, othewise someone could show up one day to test out these claims :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

These guys are pretty smart to not list the addresses of their schools on that web site, othewise someone could show up one day to test out these claims :rolleyes:


Using "Chi" to immobilize people is a mental trick performed by plenty of cultists and magicians too.

Its never, ever, been shown to be anything more than that.

And James Randi will give you $100,000 if you can prove otherwise.


:rolleyes:



About as f-in vague and unspecific as you can get. What kind of "ground fighting"? "jiu jitus"? Classical Japanese stand up or BJJ? Who did he study with? Does he have any rank?

I studied Tai Chi for a week once, does that make me a tai chi master? :rolleyes:




more vague, non specific crap :rolleyes:



of course! he used CHI to immobilize SEVERAL wrestlers AT ONCE :rolleyes:

dear lord, are these people real?



Did you guys click the links an read the entire articles? lkfmdc He studied Hapkido and Jujitsu:
I have studied martial arts for almost 30 years under many famous grandmasters from, Karate, Hapkido, Jujitsu, JKD and Wing Chun.

Did you read the post...Why did you say this?


What kind of "ground fighting"? "jiu jitus"? Classical Japanese stand up or BJJ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

First off, no one here speaks for Tom Wong, so stop taking about him.
Yoshi made the comment that Tom had defeated BJJ Black Belts, he was asked which ones.
No answer.
Tom Wong never said he defeated ANY GRAPPLER, this is about Yoshi and what he said.
Second, Jodan ( 10 Dan BB) in Shotokan is very rare and is given as an honorary title to those that have been in SHotokan for decades and have done great things in the name of Shotokan, just like the Jodan is given to anyone else in any Karate organization.
Pretty much anything over 5th Dan is "political" and done in terms of recognition and that is typical in all "belt" systems.
In other words, you don't TEST for a 6th dan or an 8th Dan, they are awarded to you by the commitee the heads up the organization.

[m1k3]

Did you read the post...Why did you say this?


Quote:
What kind of "ground fighting"? "jiu jitus"? Classical Japanese stand up or BJJ?

There is a BIG difference between Japanese Ju Jitsu and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, they are completely different styles. Actually there is a multitude of Japanese Ju Jitsu styles and they can be very different from each other.

This is the reason you get a lot of grief. To use a common Bullshido response:

Read more, post less.

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a BIG difference between Japanese Ju Jitsu and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, they are completely different styles. Actually there is a multitude of Japanese Ju Jitsu styles and they can be very different from each other.

This is the reason you get a lot of grief. To use a common Bullshido response:

Read more, post less.

:D

The vast majority of JJJ systems do NOT address ground work, Ne waza, like BJJ does, the exceptions being Kosen Judo ( its their specialty) and Kodokan Judo.
Most will adress ground work in terms of Pinning and control over submission, though almost all of them have the same basic subs - Arm bars, chokes, and such.

[TenTigers]

hmmm, well if judo was developed from jiu-jutsu, then there must be at least a few jiujutsu ryus that contain the ne-waza, as well as the throws, jointlocks and strikes? Now, that would be the cool.

[sanjuro_ronin]

hmmm, well if judo was developed from jiu-jutsu, then there must be at least a few jiujutsu ryus that contain the ne-waza, as well as the throws, jointlocks and strikes? Now, that would be the cool.

Judo has all those, as you know, the majority of people focus only on the competitive side.
Combat Judo is a very complete and well rounded MA, think Combat Shuai Jiao.

The vast majority of Koryu ( old school) jujutsu ryu didn't contain the TYPE of sylabus that the Kodokan adapted from Fusen-ryu, which was a Ryu that specialized in NeWaza.
Kosen Judo is simply the "pre-war" or "pre-olympic" Judo and as such focuses much more on ground work than on throws, the major emphasise of Olympic Judo.
The Takenouguchi Ryu has some Newaza, most of it with their weapon of choice the tanto ( knife).
Fact is, the majority of JJJ systems tend to view ground work from the battlefield perspective and as such it was "stab the Mofu and get up".

[SimonM]

mongolian wrestling,ground mantis and shaishou (wrong spelling please forgive)

I've never heard of "ground mantis" or of shaishou. If you mean shuai jiao that is a wrestling form I am familliar with. And like most Chinese wrestling arts it doesn't contain much in the way of a ground game because the match is lost when somebody takes a knee.

I know for a fact this is the case with Mongolian Wrestling - which I have more than a passing familiarity in traditional Mongolian Wrestling the loser is the first person to touch the ground with anything other than his feet.

Another note: Mongolian Wrestling is still quite an awesome form of wrestling which I enjoy both watching and participating in. It's a rough and tumble form that lacks the ghey elements of... say... turkish wrestling. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've never heard of "ground mantis" or of shaishou. If you mean shuai jiao that is a wrestling form I am familliar with. And like most Chinese wrestling arts it doesn't contain much in the way of a ground game because the match is lost when somebody takes a knee.

I know for a fact this is the case with Mongolian Wrestling - which I have more than a passing familiarity.

Maybe he meant Ethiopian Sumo or Somali Judo.
Now those are badass mofu arts !!

[SimonM]

Or perhaps he was simply mistaken.

Or maybe somebody blew smoke up his ear and he believed it.

Or maybe these are simply obscure arts I've never heard of.

All are roughly equal probability at the moment.

So video evidence would be in order.

Oh... and for the record... MONGOLIAN Wrestling is about as validly a CMA as a martial art from Vietnam... since there are mongolians within China but they are a distinct ethnicity with a distinct, non-chinese culture who happen to overlap the border between China and a neighbouring state.

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc He studied Hapkido and Jujitsu:



well, let's see

1) "jujitsu" is so vague it could mean standing classical Japanese jiu jitsu with no ground grappling at all .... :rolleyes:

2) seeing as I have a 2nd dan in Hapkido from Pong Ki Kim (student of Yong Shul Choi), I can say without any worries that Hapkido is NOT A GROUND FIGHTING ART

[SimonM]

And James Randi will give you $100,000 if you can prove otherwise.

$1,000,000 actually.

But the challenge is kind of being wound up.

I think Randi decided 30 years was long enough to wait for somebody legitimate to step up.

[Shaolinlueb]

$1,000,000 actually.

But the challenge is kind of being wound up.

I think Randi decided 30 years was long enough to wait for somebody legitimate to step up.

whats the challenge?

[Yoshiyahu]

First off, no one here speaks for Tom Wong, so stop taking about him.

Yoshi made the comment that Tom had defeated BJJ Black Belts, he was asked which ones.

No answer.

Tom Wong never said he defeated ANY GRAPPLER, this is about Yoshi and what he said.

Second, Jodan ( 10 Dan BB) in Shotokan is very rare and is given as an honorary title to those that have been in SHotokan for decades and have done great things in the name of Shotokan, just like the Jodan is given to anyone else in any Karate organization.

Pretty much anything over 5th Dan is "political" and done in terms of recognition and that is typical in all "belt" systems.

In other words, you don't TEST for a 6th dan or an 8th Dan, they are awarded to you by the commitee the heads up the organization.






I've never heard of "ground mantis" or of shaishou. If you mean shuai jiao that is a wrestling form I am familliar with. And like most Chinese wrestling arts it doesn't contain much in the way of a ground game because the match is lost when somebody takes a knee.

I know for a fact this is the case with Mongolian Wrestling - which I have more than a passing familiarity in traditional Mongolian Wrestling the loser is the first person to touch the ground with anything other than his feet.

Another note: Mongolian Wrestling is still quite an awesome form of wrestling which I enjoy both watching and participating in. It's a rough and tumble form that lacks the ghey elements of... say... turkish wrestling. ;)


Maybe he meant Ethiopian Sumo or Somali Judo.
Now those are badass mofu arts !!


well, let's see

1) "jujitsu" is so vague it could mean standing classical Japanese jiu jitsu with no ground grappling at all .... :rolleyes:

2) seeing as I have a 2nd dan in Hapkido from Pong Ki Kim (student of Yong Shul Choi), I can say without any worries that Hapkido is NOT A GROUND FIGHTING ART


Or perhaps he was simply mistaken.

Or maybe somebody blew smoke up his ear and he believed it.

Or maybe these are simply obscure arts I've never heard of.

All are roughly equal probability at the moment.

So video evidence would be in order.

Oh... and for the record... MONGOLIAN Wrestling is about as validly a CMA as a martial art from Vietnam... since there are mongolians within China but they are a distinct ethnicity with a distinct, non-chinese culture who happen to overlap the border between China and a neighbouring state.


Do you guys know of any chinese groundfighting?

oh i spelled the chinese wrestling style wrong!!!


Shuai Jiao, a wrestling style originating in China, has a reported history of over 4,000 years.

[SimonM]

The James Randi Challenge is to demonstrate, under controlled experimental test conditions, a supernatural ability or a capability that defies explaination within current paradigms or science. It was mainly instituted to tweak Uri Geller's nose.


Do you guys know of any chinese groundfighting?

oh i spelled the chinese wrestling style wrong!!!

Ok, well I've done Shuai Jiao before and I can tell you with certainty: no ground fighting. You lose if you take a knee.

It's got excellent throws though. Some of the very best.

[Yoshiyahu]

First off, no one here speaks for Tom Wong, so stop taking about him.
Yoshi made the comment that Tom had defeated BJJ Black Belts, he was asked which ones.
No answer.
Tom Wong never said he defeated ANY GRAPPLER, this is about Yoshi and what he said.
Second, Jodan ( 10 Dan BB) in Shotokan is very rare and is given as an honorary title to those that have been in SHotokan for decades and have done great things in the name of Shotokan, just like the Jodan is given to anyone else in any Karate organization.
Pretty much anything over 5th Dan is "political" and done in terms of recognition and that is typical in all "belt" systems.
In other words, you don't TEST for a 6th dan or an 8th Dan, they are awarded to you by the commitee the heads up the organization.


Please click the said link below: Rolling eyes!!!!!!!!!!111
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923094&postcount=45

[Yoshiyahu]

Please click the said link below: Rolling eyes!!!!!!!!!!111
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923094&postcount=45


also check out the Jitujitsu fight interesting heh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2t14Vg7o4

[Hardwork108]

also check out the Jitujitsu fight interesting heh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2t14Vg7o4

That looked like Japanese Jiu Jitsu and the guy who got knocked down deserved what he got. He telegraphed his kick and rushed in with no guard...lol.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please click the said link below: Rolling eyes!!!!!!!!!!111
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923094&postcount=45

Let me make this easy for you:
YOU said that Tom Wong fought and beat BJJ BLACK BELTS.
Since YOU said it, PROVE IT.

[sanjuro_ronin]

also check out the Jitujitsu fight interesting heh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2t14Vg7o4

Your point?

[Yoshiyahu]

Your point?

just showing proof its possible...to use WC successfully against all types of fighters. Its up to the indiviual.

[sanjuro_ronin]

just showing proof its possible...to use WC successfully against all types of fighters. Its up to the indiviual.

The guy in the clip was using WC?


By the way, where did you get your info that Tom Wong beat BJJ Black Belts?

[Yoshiyahu]

The guy in the clip was using WC?


By the way, where did you get your info that Tom Wong beat BJJ Black Belts?


Well excuse me...sir..for saying black belts...The page only said he defeated Groundfighters. Like the one guy who has been studing for years I think just regular jiujitsu. Was defeated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well excuse me...sir..for saying black belts...The page only said he defeated Groundfighters. Like the one guy who has been studing for years I think just regular jiujitsu. Was defeated.

Well, if that page said that, why did you say BJJ Black Belts??
Take with a grain of salt when ANY web page says that they h ave defeated "ground fighters" or any fighters for that matter, and put up no evidence of such.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well, if that page said that, why did you say BJJ Black Belts??
Take with a grain of salt when ANY web page says that they h ave defeated "ground fighters" or any fighters for that matter, and put up no evidence of such.

Good Point Sanjuro...So do you think its impossible for someone to defeat a BJJ man using pure Wing Chun or any other striking art for that matter?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good Point Sanjuro...So do you think its impossible for someone to defeat a BJJ man using pure Wing Chun or any other striking art for that matter?

Anything is possible.

[SimonM]

Here's a question for you:

At this time in you life do you believe you could beat a competent* grappler with nothing but WC.

*Competent = min. 1 year active training with a good instructor.

[Yoshiyahu]

Anything is possible.


Is it possible for a BJJ man to beat a Boxer or Muay Thai guy with pure BJJ techniques and No techniques outside of BJJ? That means no techniques from striking art?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is it possible for a BJJ man to beat a Boxer or Muay Thai guy with pure BJJ techniques and No techniques outside of BJJ? That means no techniques from striking art?

BJJ has striking.
BJJ is "divided" between "vale tudo" type MMA traning, MMA typicla training, submission grappling and sport BJJ.
Rickson, Rorion, Rolls and Royce Gracie ( to name a few) defeated many many fighters with nothing than BJJ.

[Yoshiyahu]

BJJ has striking.
BJJ is "divided" between "vale tudo" type MMA traning, MMA typicla training, submission grappling and sport BJJ.
Rickson, Rorion, Rolls and Royce Gracie ( to name a few) defeated many many fighters with nothing than BJJ.

Outside of the MMA Training would a BJJ sport fighter be able to defeat a Muay Thai Guy. Using pure BJJ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Outside of the MMA Training would a BJJ sport fighter be able to defeat a Muay Thai Guy. Using pure BJJ?

Anything is possible.

people fight, not systems.

[Yoshiyahu]

Anything is possible.

people fight, not systems.

How long have you been training Wing Chun?

What do you like the most about WC?

[lkfmdc]

"beating" someone who does classical Japanese Jiu Jitsu (often with no alive training involved) or something similar like Hapkido is not a lot to "brag about"... and equating it with beating a BJJ black belt is absurd

Too many TMA peple spend so much time trying to find the "secret counter" in their own systems to grappling that they miss the most basic concept, if you don't understand how something works, how can you hope to counter it? :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

"beating" someone who does classical Japanese Jiu Jitsu (often with no alive training involved) or something similar like Hapkido is not a lot to "brag about"... and equating it with beating a BJJ black belt is absurd

Too many TMA peple spend so much time trying to find the "secret counter" in their own systems to grappling that they miss the most basic concept, if you don't understand how something works, how can you hope to counter it? :rolleyes:

Excellent post. So What do you think the strenghts of Wing Chun are? Do you still practice WC?

[tjwingchun]

Anybody with any skill in fighting whether learned or instinctive can beat any fighter no matter what their discipline.

Structured understanding of fighting will only ever give you an advantage never a guarantee.

I have trained exclusively in Wing Chun for 35 years, 25 years teaching professionally.

I do not fear any style yet know I am vulnerable in any conflict to the least trained fighter.

Is Wing Chun useless?

I think not.

What is my proof?

I have not been shown otherwise.

The arguments here are not only repetitive but serve no purpose, if you want knowledge ask those who can and are willing to answer, if the ones you ask refuse to consider your question, then maybe the pedistal they have put themselves on has taken them out of range of reality.

[m1k3]

Outside of the MMA Training would a BJJ sport fighter be able to defeat a Muay Thai Guy. Using pure BJJ?

Dude, your problem is there is no such thing as pure BJJ. It takes techniques from anywhere as long as they work. BJJ has striking and kicking. It is not the main part of the training, but it is there. It has picked up takedowns and moves from wrestling, sambo and Judo. Where do you think the Kimura came from.

BJJ is not hung up on this sort of thing, except maybe for Rorion's part of the family.

And why are you so hung up on it? Its not about what someone else can do with their art, even if its the same as yours. Its about what YOU can do with it. When start focusing on improving your own skills rather than riding the coat tails of other people you won't care as much about this kind of stuff, and at that point your going to realize that your are starting down a path of building your own style because everyone is different and everyone does even the same moves differently based on their own build and age and understanding of how the move works.

Train hard and have fun are the only rules that count. :D

[lkfmdc]

I have trained exclusively in Wing Chun for 35 years, 25 years teaching professionally.

I do not fear any style yet know I am vulnerable in any conflict to the least trained fighter.



25 years in any stand up system can give you a lot of base material in punches, elbows, kicks, knees, etc....

But grappling, particularly GROUND grappling is a very different animal. 25 years of WC and you probably would still commit the most basic of erros in trying to pass the guard for example, because you will fall back on instinct and instinct will get you swept or submitted

[tjwingchun]

Not according to my students, especially the one who has over 12 years of full contact Ju Jitsu as well as a history of street fighting.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well the reason why I make statements is because I want people to see pass their bias. Yes many people on this forum do not have confidence in their art. They feel their art is lacking in someway. Therefore they need to supplement it with another art. But I am woundering why do people feel this way. I was woundering if their any people in these places who feel its not the art but the person. As for me I am sharing my focus and thoughts with you. I just want to open your minds to other possibilities. As for fun thats what this forum is. Mere fun while i am at work...So I understand people have a bias for this an that. But why. Why are you guys so closeminded...



Dude, your problem is there is no such thing as pure BJJ. It takes techniques from anywhere as long as they work. BJJ has striking and kicking. It is not the main part of the training, but it is there. It has picked up takedowns and moves from wrestling, sambo and Judo. Where do you think the Kimura came from.

BJJ is not hung up on this sort of thing, except maybe for Rorion's part of the family.

And why are you so hung up on it? Its not about what someone else can do with their art, even if its the same as yours. Its about what YOU can do with it. When start focusing on improving your own skills rather than riding the coat tails of other people you won't care as much about this kind of stuff, and at that point your going to realize that your are starting down a path of building your own style because everyone is different and everyone does even the same moves differently based on their own build and age and understanding of how the move works.

Train hard and have fun are the only rules that count. :D

[tjwingchun]

I have to go but will return another day.

Take care out there and stay safe.

[lkfmdc]

Not according to my students, especially the one who has over 12 years of full contact Ju Jitsu as well as a history of street fighting.

ah, yes, the old "my student is a jiu jitsu master and I beat him up regularly" argument :rolleyes:

maybe your student is really a white belt, also when you say "full contact Jiu Jitsu" makes me think he does something like Japanese Jiu Jitsu, which is NOT BJJ

Again, it's pretty simple to go down and take a free class at a BJJ place and see what happens.... :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

How long have you been training Wing Chun?

What do you like the most about WC?

Moy Yat WC since 99 more or less.
Although what I do in terms of WC is MY WC not anyone else's, it works or fails based on me, not on who taught or didn't teach me.
What I like best about WC?
being able to fight in a phone booth ;)

[m1k3]

Well the reason why I make statements is because I want people to see pass their bias. Yes many people on this forum do not have confidence in their art. They feel their art is lacking in someway. Therefore they need to supplement it with another art. But I am woundering why do people feel this way. I was woundering if their any people in these places who feel its not the art but the person. As for me I am sharing my focus and thoughts with you. I just want to open your minds to other possibilities. As for fun thats what this forum is. Mere fun while i am at work...So I understand people have a bias for this an that. But why. Why are you guys so closeminded...

Go back and look at UFC 1 - 5. There you had a lot of 1 dimensional fighters going against each other. What shocked everyone was how well the grapplers did. Not just the BJJ guys, but any grappler.

Its not that the strikers never won, but if they couldn't keep the grappler off them how quickly the fight went down hill from there.

Then look at the middle year UFC's. Suddenly the pure grapplers were finding themselves getting owned by people who did both grappling and striking.

What the UFC and others like it have taught us is you need to be well rounded in both grappling and striking to be at the top. Now a days even top BJJ black belts (Mir, Nog, BJ Penn) train their striking game because they know BJJ alone isn't enough.

So why is it so hard for you to admit that as a striker you should probably train some grappling to be a well rounded fighter?

[couch]

What I like best about WC?
being able to fight in a phone booth ;)

Take THAT TKD'ers!!! LOL!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Take THAT TKD'ers!!! LOL!!!

F'n A !!!
:D

[SimonM]

I'll take your non-response as a negative.

[lkfmdc]

Here's a question for you:

At this time in you life do you believe you could beat a competent* grappler with nothing but WC.

*Competent = min. 1 year active training with a good instructor.

he seems to have missed this question, so here it is again ;)

[bawang]

can a grappler beat wc guy on a smalle boat :eek::eek:!!!!!!!!!

[SimonM]

I'm confident I can. :D Any WC guys want to oblige? :p ;)

See I'm a really good swimmer and striking is next to impossible in the water. And that's where we would both end up. :p

[lkfmdc]

can two chipmunks, one with a wooden leg, beat a skunk and a billygoat in a tag team match? the world wants to know

[SimonM]

Never.
12345

[Wayfaring]

Can 2 blindfolded men with one leg on a garbage barge in the middle of the Hudson find each other by sense of smell only? Which one will win in an @ss-kicking contest?

[Hendrik]

Is Wing Chun alone only good enough to fight untrained fighters.

Is Wing Chun alone incapable of defeating fighter who is skilled in both Muay Thai and Wrestling?

Lets say some has been studing and fighting with Wing Chun alone for twenty years. Would it be safe to say that if that WC fighter would loose if he got in a bar fight with skilled MMA fighter or someone who studies both boxing and BJJ?


Whats your take is Pure Wing Chun alone not capable of standing up to Mix Martial Art fighters?




The question needs to be Is "your" Wing Chun Useless? See, Your Wing Chun is yours not others.


Furthermore,

There needs to be a critirion for if it is useless.

IE: Do your Wing Chun cover the training of Kick, Hit, Throw/take down, and Lock/submissive? the famous 4 basic catagory in TCMA?




Wing Chun once upon a time have all the components which addressing the Kick, Hit, Throw, and Lock. It has to be complete or comprehensive to be a style in ancient China otherwise it is useless.


These days, since 50 years ago, and even worst about 20 years ago, more and more people starts to define Wing Chun and keep pushing for " oh, every intepretation is the same". That cause the degradation of WCK.



Thus, 100 years ago, Wing Chun cant be just practice some hand technics. Also, wing chun cant be just practice some hand technics but doesnt know how to deliver the fast accelerate power. as in today.


Finally, take a person who learn only how to hit softly and partially without power matching up with those who know very well how to wrest and have better physical fitness.
The answer is solid, one doesnt have to guess.


Similarly, take a grapper who know partial take down and have no power for locking to match some one who is pro in doing boxing. The answer is solid too. one doesnt have to guess.


Finally, take a person expect to not hit hard to cause damage, stop, and not continous on the match when one touch others vesus those who take wresting after body contact is just begining of the match and applied of serious damaging technig is ok to use.
The answer is solid. one doesnt have to guess.




So, is WCK useless? is TCMA useless? Yes, if the type you study is an incomplete WCK or incomplete TCMA. That that is not WCK that is not TCMA that is you.

There is no such thing as Pure WCK, there is only incomplete WCK. There is no different between WCK and MMA. There is only WCK which doesnt address Kick, hit, Throw, Lock.



Dont believe me? you dont have to. Just look at the WCK sets today, how many Kneeling horse stance is there? anyone train with kneeling horse stance? not kneeling horse stance application means void in lower body defense.

the Evolution in the past 50 years on WCK sucks, the more it evolve the more it becomes something else. either totally incomplete or become bjj or CLF or Hungga or Taijin or HsiYin.... partial copier but leave lots of room void. or just do mma and called it WCK.



Finally,
No Inch power, no WCK. according to ancient description, --- WCK keen in using fast accelerated power to address different solution/methods on Kick, Hit, Throw/take down, Lock.


Who is doing WCK? I dont because I dont have the Inch power. and Do you do WCK? one needs to do WCK to know is WCK usefull.


Just some thoughts.

[bawang]

i think huge tall westerner not good body structure for learning southern kung fu
southern kung fu is to fight big tall northerner
if southerner stay on his toes like northerner the northerner easyly knock him off balance

[David Jamieson]

no martial art is useless unless it is never used.

[Yoshiyahu]

no martial art is useless unless it is never used.

So true...i totally agree...an the best way to perfect ones WC is to fight different opponents of different ranges...anyone here in st.louis know where an underground fighting club is?

[couch]

...anyone here in st.louis know where an underground fighting club is?

You're too funny.

[anerlich]

anyone here in st.louis know where an underground fighting club is?

I keep being told Wing Chun has fighting on the ground, but I'm not aware of any martial art that does fighting UNDER the ground.

There's a place called Extreme Jiu Jitsu here - maybe those guys push the limits that little bit further.

"BJJ? Bah. The surface is for wimps!"

Those guys must go through a lot of gi's ... and the bills at the laundromat... oh my ...

[SimonM]

i think huge tall westerner not good body structure for learning southern kung fu
southern kung fu is to fight big tall northerner
if southerner stay on his toes like northerner the northerner easyly knock him off balance

I am a big tall heavy northerner (well... Canadian of northern-european descent) and I like fighting close.

Of course I prefer wrestling...

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea you ever in STL let me know???


I'm confident I can. :D Any WC guys want to oblige? :p ;)

See I'm a really good swimmer and striking is next to impossible in the water. And that's where we would both end up. :p


Its nothing better than being pushed under the dirt by a skilled underground fighter. Sometimes you may even interurpt some hedgehogs mating when your face is pushed beneath the dirt...ha ha lol..


I keep being told Wing Chun has fighting on the ground, but I'm not aware of any martial art that does fighting UNDER the ground.

There's a place called Extreme Jiu Jitsu here - maybe those guys push the limits that little bit further.

"BJJ? Bah. The surface is for wimps!"

Those guys must go through a lot of gi's ... and the bills at the laundromat... oh my ...