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Lacerto
03-12-2009, 04:49 PM
Me and a friend started doing kung fu about 7-8 months ago. We've both progressed relatively slowly compared to how we'd like to progress, which is a combination of sporadic laziness and kung fu being something it takes a lifetime to master.

We study White Crane kung fu. It's a rare variety of white crane, and I'm the 3rd generation of it in America. Sigung came over in the 80s and started teaching my Sifus, who are now teaching me. I believe its a very effective and powerful style of kung fu. I have learned 3 basic forms with application, as well as a multitude of internal qigong excersizes with a lot of physical conditioning and standing. They really drill the information into you before moving on to something new. As my Sifus say, the 3 forms I've learned are not actually the White Crane system yet, just something Sigung put together to help bring those who have never done kung fu into the system, as it was meant for existing kung fu practitioners. So pretty much I haven't even scratched the surface of the system.

The one thing I'm unhappy about is the lack of sparring. So far, we have done no sparring. We've done two man sets and pad drills, but not actual sparring. My sifus say that we will get to that and that we have to build up to it, but the curriculum is based on forms. I understand that kung fu is something that is learned slowly and is more about an overall quality of life than just knowing how to fight, but at the same time I really want to do some sparring! I feel like I know enough as it is to do atleast beginner level sparring.

My friend who I had been doing kung fu with for about 5 months also started doing capoeira. He now thinks mixing and matching styles is the way to go. He's downloaded many, many ebooks and movies on various types of martial arts. He isn't going to a MMA school or anything, but his outlook is that of MMA: mix and match styles to build what you want.

Enter the dilemma. I was always a traditionalist. I just wanted to do kung fu and get to the master level. However, now that I'm seeing his progress and reading more and more about other styles, it seems like they all have their merits. I've considered muay thai, jiujitsu, aikido, another style of kung fu, karate, and even going to an MMA gym to see what they're all about. Plus picking up another style would also provide me with an earlier outlet for sparring.

I've talked with other martial artists abut this, and they say there's nothing wrong with studying more than one style, but to wait until you're a few years into your first one before branching out.

My friend is of the opinion that you should learn them at the same time, so they grow together within you. The physical conditioning for one can definitely help the other, right?

Both outlooks make sense to me. Focusing one on martial art vs doing multiple at the same time. I'm leaning towards sticking with white crane for now, then branching out to other styles of kung fu, then eventually trying something outside of kung fu. But I'm torn, I can see the benefit of doing something like muay thai right now alongside kung fu.

I'm admittedly a noob with martial arts and I would really appreciate any input from you seasoned vets. Focus on kung fu or do kung fu along with something else?

acuboy
03-12-2009, 05:41 PM
Although forms are an important part of most kung fu systems, sparring is also extremely important. It can take a while to learn proper control in sparring, but I believe it should be introduced early in training. In the style I train, Bak Mei, sparring has always been considered a crucial part of all levels of training. Some schools just seem to really avoid sparring, which I think is a disservice to their students. I would express your concerns to your sifu.

our school is www.dragonhousemma.com

take care
duncan

David Jamieson
03-12-2009, 06:03 PM
well, it's possible to learn math and english at the same time.
as long as there aren't any glaring conflicts there's nothing wrong with cross training.

I would say most people are down with it these days.

wetwonder
03-12-2009, 10:08 PM
Lacerto,

I don't think the problem or answer is about what's right or wrong with kung fu or mixing styles. It sounds to me that you are dissatisfied simply in that you are interested in trying out sparring now, but your school doesn't include sparring early on in your training.

My guess is that you've probably been leaving your white crane class a bit disgruntled about the whole thing. You don't want to work yourself into that type of situation. So maybe you should check out something else that includes early sparring and see if you like it better. And I say "maybe," because this is really a question of what's the right fit for you. I'm speculating above on how you feel - but just remember that there is no right or wrong or absolute answer to this question about one style or mixing or when is the right time to spar. I think this is really just about what you want for yourself.

Violent Designs
03-13-2009, 12:41 AM
Look, your shifu may be great, and a good fighter.

Maybe he has trained fighters this way for a long time, I don't know.

But if YOU are not happy, then its time to try something new. Maybe you will come back and keep doing white crane, only you can decide for that.

But, I think you should maybe try some other arts? Doesn't matter, if it is Chinese, or MMA, or Japanese, boxing, whatever.

Find something that you truly love doing. Its easier to work hard that way too.

Maybe, on ur quest you will find an art you like more.

Lacerto
03-13-2009, 01:32 AM
Thank you all for your feedback! I truly appreciate it.

I've brought the subject of sparring up with my Sifu multiple times and each time the answer is that 'its on the way'. I can definitely bring it up again and let him know I'm considering expanding my martial arts horizon.

As far as my happiness goes, I really do enjoy the school. I've never felt healthier, this particular school places a lot of emphasis on maintaining health in the traditional Chinese sense. We do a solid 30-60 mins of qigong at the beginning of the class. The forms themselves are really fun to do and learning the application of them is a blast.

Maybe I'm trying to justify the school to myself since its where I got started with martial arts. I have some meditating to do! I definitely welcome anymore feedback anyone has.

Paul T England
03-13-2009, 02:14 AM
traditionally, Chinese teachers and some westerners dont teach sparring. sparring is a half way house, so in a traditional sense you are either fighting or playing!

Saying that, I introduce sparring drills to students early on as martial arts training is different today. Most people will not stick it for years and they need feedback and plenty of enjoyment in training.

If you believe 100% in your teacher/coach etc, do eactly as they say, they know how to get you to where you want to go! Just be careful not to get suckered by crap teachers.....

Ask yourself why you are training? If sport interests you, sport sparring is essential early on.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

sanjuro_ronin
03-13-2009, 05:30 AM
There are two ways to work this:

Mixing systems and cross training in systems, they are not the same thing, though they may lead to the same place.

Mixing is taking a bunch of systems, typically systems that are spcialized in certain ranges, and mixing them so that you cover "all your bases" and are well rounded.
Cross training is chosing/devoting yourself to one system and then cross training/testing with other systems to see how your core system is effective VS them.
You make the needed changes and modifications as you are exposed to other systems.
In the end you become a well rounded MA able to use your core systme VS other systems in the most effective way possible.

SDJerry
03-13-2009, 05:43 AM
traditionally, Chinese teachers and some westerners dont teach sparring. sparring is a half way house, so in a traditional sense you are either fighting or playing!

Great point! My sifu refers to sparring as playing. Real situations don't allow you to setup, feel someone out, and base a strategy upon what you see.

I think pairing two people up to spar that don't have the basics down just encourages them to make it up as they go. Maybe that's why your sifu hasn't introduced it to you yet. I mean, if you don't have technique, you're just out there doing whatever it takes to keep from getting hit. They are trying to teach you a method of fighting, now how to create your own.

sanjuro_ronin
03-13-2009, 05:48 AM
Great point! My sifu refers to sparring as playing. Real situations don't allow you to setup, feel someone out, and base a strategy upon what you see.

I think pairing two people up to spar that don't have the basics down just encourages them to make it up as they go. Maybe that's why your sifu hasn't introduced it to you yet. I mean, if you don't have technique, you're just out there doing whatever it takes to keep from getting hit. They are trying to teach you a method of fighting, now how to create your own.

There are many types of sparring, if you feel that "typical" sparring is to predicatable, there are many ways around that and they still involve actual fighting as opposed to no fighting.
The only people I know that ever refer to sparring as "playing" are those that never sparred full contact.
It may be an experience worth your while.

David Jamieson
03-13-2009, 06:05 AM
sparring is fighting.

It can be done at low, medium or high intensity with the latter being the most useful in understand wtf you are doing.

low and med contact are for learning and shouldn't be a steady diet.

sparring with someone who outclasses you immediately will be as much a waste of time as sparring with someone who is a walking clusterhump.

TenTigers
03-13-2009, 07:48 AM
there are many possibilities, many options.
You and your friend might get together and spar on your own.This might fulfill your hunger for the sparring, but you might also develop bad habits, which could impede your ability to use your Gung-Fu in the way it was designed. There is such a thing as an investment in the future. Some will agree, some will dissagree. You have to find your own path.

That could be the reason why your Sifu is teaching you pad drills, and reaction drills first. He is developing your Gung-Fu body. Otherwise, you will have pretty forms and such, and fight like the folks in the Karate schools fight. Not that their fighting is so terrible, but if you want to learn how to actually fight using the techniques of your style, then there is a specific method to learning this.
Again, this is your decision. Depends on what you want.



Being that you only have a few months in, you can either trust your Sifu, or run to another school. After all, this is the modern age-you can go to burger king and have it your way.


You can also train in a strictly groundfighting system, like bjj. This way you and your friend can roll with full intensity, and it will not conflict-physically with your Gung-Fu. It may conflict strategically, but at this stage of the game, it is like David said, Math and English. Later on, you can combine them so you can fight at all ranges-and look-no conflict. If it goes to the ground, you are ready. If it doesn't, fine.

It really depends on what you want. Not your friend, and certainly not any of the "experts" on this forum. Search yourself. It is your life, your desires, your goals, and no one else's. You walk this path alone. Others may walk alongside you, but it is your life.

Your Sifu may not be the teacher you desire,
you may not be the student your Sifu desires.

SDJerry
03-13-2009, 07:52 AM
There are many types of sparring, if you feel that "typical" sparring is to predicatable, there are many ways around that and they still involve actual fighting as opposed to no fighting.
The only people I know that ever refer to sparring as "playing" are those that never sparred full contact.
It may be an experience worth your while.

I didn't say that sparring is predictable, I'm simply pointing out the fact that the tempo differs greatly between sparring and any real life altercation. Now if you are training for sport then the gap isn't as wide because you have more time and space. Like anything else, your training just needs to be in alignment with your goals.

Oh and IMO, sparring full contact = fighting. I don't know how else you would define that hehehe

sanjuro_ronin
03-13-2009, 08:49 AM
I didn't say that sparring is predictable, I'm simply pointing out the fact that the tempo differs greatly between sparring and any real life altercation. Now if you are training for sport then the gap isn't as wide because you have more time and space. Like anything else, your training just needs to be in alignment with your goals.

Oh and IMO, sparring full contact = fighting. I don't know how else you would define that hehehe

Agreed.
Temp can be played with as for example:
Not to long ago, my private MA training group ( now disbanded) took on a coupld of new guys, there were very "reality based" and kept saying that the sparring wasn't realistic enough, not enough liek the real thing, so a buddy of mine, a hapkido BB, decided that, from then on, we shoudl surprise attack them on a regualr basis or actually make them thing one od us was ****ed of and wanted to put the beats on them.
This went on for a few meetings, at one point he beat on of them pretty bad, not hurt mind, just beat.
They both left.
Wonder why?
The point was that, in all those altercations, they fought the exact same way that they would have if they were just sparring.

David Jamieson
03-13-2009, 09:00 AM
Agreed.
Temp can be played with as for example:
Not to long ago, my private MA training group ( now disbanded) took on a coupld of new guys, there were very "reality based" and kept saying that the sparring wasn't realistic enough, not enough liek the real thing, so a buddy of mine, a hapkido BB, decided that, from then on, we shoudl surprise attack them on a regualr basis or actually make them thing one od us was ****ed of and wanted to put the beats on them.
This went on for a few meetings, at one point he beat on of them pretty bad, not hurt mind, just beat.
They both left.
Wonder why?
The point was that, in all those altercations, they fought the exact same way that they would have if they were just sparring.

lol.

you could have just told them to get out.

SDJerry
03-13-2009, 09:13 AM
Agreed.
Temp can be played with as for example:
Not to long ago, my private MA training group ( now disbanded) took on a coupld of new guys, there were very "reality based" and kept saying that the sparring wasn't realistic enough, not enough liek the real thing, so a buddy of mine, a hapkido BB, decided that, from then on, we shoudl surprise attack them on a regualr basis or actually make them thing one od us was ****ed of and wanted to put the beats on them.
This went on for a few meetings, at one point he beat on of them pretty bad, not hurt mind, just beat.
They both left.
Wonder why?
The point was that, in all those altercations, they fought the exact same way that they would have if they were just sparring.

They left cause they weren't winning hahaha Personally, I don't mind loosing because that means there's plenty of opportunity to learn.

Here's a scenario though. Say on one of those surprise attacks you went in for a grab or maybe spun the guy around to clock him. We have drills to handle those types of scenarios... more self defense based type stuff you know. Those scenarios don't seem to present themselves much in sparring.

Why? IMO it would be because you both train. You would get your a** handed to you if you tried to pull off any of those moves "without a surprise element". Does that make sense or am I getting off topic? hehehe

Back on topic, cross training is a good way to get some of that because your opponent hasn't been trained to fight in the same manner you do.

Lacerto
03-13-2009, 04:48 PM
This forum kicks ass, thanks for all the good advice.

After milling it around for a while I've decided to just practice white crane kung fu at this point. My sifus were taught traditionally from their sifu. It took them years to get a solid understanding of the style. However, they are currently taking everything they learned from him and making it easier to teach to the western world, where everyone cant dedicate their lives to kung fu and do it full time. With this new curriculum, I'm one of the first students to go through it. I think this is an amazing time to be at this school. I'd like to be one of the advanced students that potential students look at and say 'I have to sign up!'. It may be a bit more slow going since they are tweaking the curriculum as they go, but I think in the end it'll pay off. I'll have a strong foundation and functional understanding of the information.

Thanks again for everyones input!

Lacerto
03-14-2009, 02:45 AM
A quick update for everyone:

Today in class we tied together stepping drills we had been working on for the past 3 months with punching for the first time and it came together quite well. It increased my punching power exponentially by coordinating the top of the body and the bottom of the body.

We did punching drills with pads, the focus master, and the heavy back using this new punching technique for the majority of class. On top of that we did some shuffling drills across the floor.

I can now see why we are waiting for sparring. I ****ing love kung fu!

TenTigers
03-14-2009, 06:28 AM
"Trust the Process!":cool:

Violent Designs
03-14-2009, 07:50 AM
"Trust the Process!":cool:

Well every teacher does it differently. Even if they are both out to make fighters the when and how to spar will differ.

AdrianK
03-14-2009, 08:48 AM
I personally feel sparring should be done day one.

Because its not the physical aspect that most people get wrong. Its the mental aspect. You need to be comfortable in that environment. You need to learn your opponent's timing, identify your own bad habits, learn how to read people.

TenTigers
03-14-2009, 09:29 AM
we introduce sparring, and contact drills on day one, albiet in a limited sense.
We teach samjien kuen, impact drills,(pressure testing-leg kicks, body strikes,etc) and then "samjien sparring," which is bare knuckle strikes and kicks to the legs and body. This is in my eyes, more for mental/physical conditioning, rather than fighting ability.

acuboy
03-14-2009, 11:03 AM
We also have one class per week that is dedicated to bare knuckle sparring. We try to keep all strikes to the head open handed. I agree that this is a lot about mental/psychological conditioning, as it is very intense. But, I do think it promotes a lot of actual good habits for fighting. It forces you to move properly and avoid taking any blows. Even minimal padding can coax one into absorbing a shot to the ribs in order to get off a good counter strike. However, if that shot the ribs is a phoenix eye fist then you clearly move your body. It seriously feels like getting shanked when one of those strikes makes contact. I also have never experienced such a hyper aware concentration as during those bare knuckle bouts. Although, it's a little intimidating I think it's an important part of training. At least it always has been in Bak Mei.

Drake
03-14-2009, 11:12 AM
The guy I used to train with, prior to joining the Army, had us sparring ALL THE TIME, many times with him. He'd reinforce techniques and validate their usefulness this way. He was big on improvisation, and a firm believer in being able to use whatever is around you as a weapon. Often, he'd hand me some weird object he just found, and ordered me to use it against him as a weapon. After the dust cleared, he'd pick me up, and explain to me how I could've better used the object.

Now I do distance learning... no sparring... nada... :(

Lee Chiang Po
03-14-2009, 10:09 PM
If you start sparring from day one, what techniques do you use? And how do you perform them? You start sparring day one in Jujitsu and you will end up with a ruptured spine. There are preperations to be made before one can spar with any sort of real ability. You would do best to just start windmilling at one another and be done. Learn what you need to know before you start wanting to spar. 2 man drills work for most useful training and sparring should come after a man or woman has learned how to do the techniques they plan on using during sparring.
Training in 2 MA at the same time will take away from each one. The time you would spend on a second MA could be spent on one. 2 hours a week will not be enough. It could be if you did it right. Learn all you can in the 2 hours in training, making sure your sifu has shown you the right way to do what you learn and then practice it daily until the following week. And do all your stretching and physical training at home.
My MA training started on my 10th birthday. I would get up in the morning and train for an hour, which included some stretching and exercising. Then another 2 hours in the afternoon. On Saturdays we did 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoons or evenings. Sunday we did what we wanted to do. My sifu was my father and older brothers. I did that until I was 21 years old. I went into the military service at 21 and never did return home in the same way. I was out of the nest and on my own.
It was almost 2 years before I was allowed to spar with even my brothers. But by then I was practiced enough to spar with conviction and with great skill. I might also suggest that for another MA you consider Japanese jujitsu rather than BJJ. Bjj compares to jap jujitsu like Judo compares to Jujitsu. Judo is a sport that consists of certain sweeps and throws taken from the jap system. It is in no way complete. The same applies to BJJ. It is a sport taken from the jap system and it is in no way complete.

Kansuke
03-14-2009, 10:14 PM
Do you think you could manage to stop using the term "jap" please?

Violent Designs
03-15-2009, 10:21 AM
If you start sparring from day one, what techniques do you use? And how do you perform them? You start sparring day one in Jujitsu and you will end up with a ruptured spine. There are preperations to be made before one can spar with any sort of real ability. You would do best to just start windmilling at one another and be done. Learn what you need to know before you start wanting to spar. 2 man drills work for most useful training and sparring should come after a man or woman has learned how to do the techniques they plan on using during sparring.
Training in 2 MA at the same time will take away from each one. The time you would spend on a second MA could be spent on one. 2 hours a week will not be enough. It could be if you did it right. Learn all you can in the 2 hours in training, making sure your sifu has shown you the right way to do what you learn and then practice it daily until the following week. And do all your stretching and physical training at home.
My MA training started on my 10th birthday. I would get up in the morning and train for an hour, which included some stretching and exercising. Then another 2 hours in the afternoon. On Saturdays we did 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoons or evenings. Sunday we did what we wanted to do. My sifu was my father and older brothers. I did that until I was 21 years old. I went into the military service at 21 and never did return home in the same way. I was out of the nest and on my own.
It was almost 2 years before I was allowed to spar with even my brothers. But by then I was practiced enough to spar with conviction and with great skill. I might also suggest that for another MA you consider Japanese jujitsu rather than BJJ. Bjj compares to jap jujitsu like Judo compares to Jujitsu. Judo is a sport that consists of certain sweeps and throws taken from the jap system. It is in no way complete. The same applies to BJJ. It is a sport taken from the jap system and it is in no way complete.

This post is full of fail.

sanjuro_ronin
03-17-2009, 06:22 AM
lol.

you could have just told them to get out.

No fun in that.

TenTigers
03-17-2009, 01:44 PM
Do you think you could manage to stop using the term "jap" please?
I grew up in a Jap neighborhood on Long Island.
Except in our area, Jap stands for Jewish American Princess.

Dale Dugas
03-17-2009, 04:36 PM
jap is not acceptable to use if you are referring to anything Japanese.

SteveLau
03-26-2009, 08:48 PM
Lacerto,

About eight months into martial art training, and you have preliminary sparring exercises like two-men drills, that is not too slow in training pace. I would speculate that five more months, you would be arranged to have sparring exercise with a live partner. If it happens, it probably would not be all-out and comprehensive at first.

As with you being torn with the dilenma, I understand but not agree with it. The reason lies in what I said above. Please be patient is the answer. Sure you can ask your instructor when you will be taught sparring. Sparring exercise and martial art training in general are not things that can be self-learned. IMOH, until a student is qualified to train sparring by himself, he can start sparring in other styles with other stylists. That is one way for one to master sparring skill.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong