OT: The Problem with prisons.

[SanHeChuan]

The problem with prisons is that they serve no purpose (expect making money) beyond removing criminals from society. This system wouldn't be such a bad one except they aren't very good at it and tend to let the criminals back into society.

The assumption being that their "time out" will be punishment enough to convince them that their criminal behavior isn't very cost effective.

For those few whose criminal activities were based on ignorance, carelessness, accident, or extreme emotion, that "time out" may be enough for them to pull their head out of their ass.

But for the rest, who knowing the consequences make a conscious decision to commit a crime, a "time out" will not produce any kind of rehabilitation. For career criminals, they have weighed the risk/reward balance sheet and keep coming up with rewards.

This points to two major problems with the "corrections" system.

One, the threat of punishment is not severe enough to deter criminal behavior.

Two, there is a serious lack of correction in the "corrections" system.

Those we don't want in our society ever again should be "punished" by never letting them out. (Violent offender convicted multiple times should be killed, that should eliminate any miscarriage of justice.;)) Make it quick and cheep too.

Those we do intend to let back should be given a serious effort at rehabilitation.

To make the punishment more severe without being too harsh, a value judgment that few will ever agree on. We should do more to remove prisoners from society. No parole for violent offenders, if anyone. No phone calls, no letters, no visits, except from their lawyer. Some gang leaders use these methods to order criminal activities, even through their lawyers. :rolleyes: No weights, for gods sakes. :eek: No TV's, or personal items of any kind. No beds they can have mat on the floor, and an Asian style hole for a toilet. This will mean fewer items to make weapons out of. Every prisoner should be in solitary confinement. :eek: Prisoners should be chemically castrated and/or given other calming medications. Violence, including sexual assault, is rampant. Prisoners are forced to ally with groups of their own race, and commit violence on the groups behalf to survive. Leading nonviolent and violent criminals to become more violent and antisocial.

Violent offenders are released to make way for nonviolent first time offenders, and most people, if they survive the prison experience, are worse off when they get out.

For rehabilitation, Nonviolent offenders should not be housed with violent offenders. The prisons should be segregated by offense, gang affiliations, and race, and they should be confined to smaller populations. Soothing tai chi music, depak chopra, etc should be played 24/7. Uniforms should be pink with hello kitties on them. Instead of basketball and weight lifting for exercise, they should be offered emasculating exercises :p like yoga, Pilate's, maybe a bike that goes no where. First time non-violent offenders should not be sent to prison but to a rehabilitation center. psychological counseling should be made available, to those without personality disorders. Education, GED and 2 year vocational degrees should be made available, and early release or parole should be made conditional on the completion of a rehabilitation program.

Would it cost more. Intitially yes. In the long run probably about the same. :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Cruel and unusual.

[SanHeChuan]

What we let them do to each other in prison is cruel. Throwing everyone into a shark tank is cruel. Insulting someones dignity is not cruel, unless your an ultra liberal, Then I apologize if I hurt your little feelings.

As for unusual. :rolleyes: it's only a matter of precedent and what is usual is a condition that can be changed. As long as it is the same for everyone it's pretty usual. It is meant to say that we punish people the same way.

[TenTigers]

"Four walls are three too many"

[WinterPalm]

I'm all for some sort of involvement of the victims or their family or whatever. Ultimately they are the ones who need some sort of closure/retribution/revenge or whatever.
I don't know any diddlers or rapists but I generally believe these people need to be put down...or any kind of psychotic person that will just not get better: many diddlers are just screwed up mentally: damaged goods. They let these people out onto the streets and send warnings to everyone to beware: why not just kill the *******s?

[bawang]

if you want to excute criminals let family of victim do it themself
if they cant do it let guy live

[Lee Chiang Po]

You are right. Here in Texas the strongest industry is that of building prisons. Mostly our youth are in them. They are starting to have these little boot camps for youth that are not quite gone yet. When I was a youth they had the military draft. Everyone got a chance to hit boot camp eventually. It did wonders for young people that had problems with authority and self behavior. Now they just graduate or drop out of school and go to selling dope or robbing.
There are many measures that can be taken to alter behaviors in prisons, but we have so many laws that harp against this. Nothing cruel or unusual can be perpetrated against an inmate. Have you watched any of the prison shows on TV? They can act out in any way they want and expect to not be physically punished for it. They put lifers in with short timers and expect them not to take advantage of them. The odds of a person serving a short stint and getting out is almost none existant. Someone will draw him out and make him figt for his life or his ass, and any sort of altercation, even in self defence will get you additional time. A guard gets mad at you he puts you into a cell with a male rapist that is certain to want to beat you to death. They allow gangs to operate, and just about anything that they get by with on the streets they get by with in prison.
I think anyone that is dealt a life sentance should undergo a review to see if they are worth trying to rehibilitate and if not they should be made into dog or cat food. I do not believe in rehibilitatin myself, and anyone that is a lifer represents a life long expence to the tax payers of the state, so should be used up in a way that can be turned into funding. Like making dog and cat food of them.

[David Jamieson]

I'm more for rehabilitation and actual efforts towards that as opposed to retribution. Punishment brings little when it is carried out in a protracted way such as captivity and control.

In that scenario, it breeds resentment and recidivism.

What we feel in our guts is not always the right thing to do in the big picture.

[BoulderDawg]

In the grand scheme of things long term imprisonment is a rather recent development. In the 19th century and earlier there were prisons but mostly it was for short timers and people waiting execution.

I'm not really sure it works.

[bakxierboxer]

You are right. Here in Texas the strongest industry is that of building prisons....

{SNIP!}

I think anyone that is dealt a life sentance should undergo a review to see if they are worth trying to rehibilitate and if not they should be made into dog or cat food. I do not believe in rehibilitatin myself, and anyone that is a lifer represents a life long expence to the tax payers of the state, so should be used up in a way that can be turned into funding. Like making dog and cat food of them.


Surprisingly close to my own view(s).... I've even gone to the extent of postulating an "accounting-based" (dollars and cents) method of arriving at the final "disposition".
Of course, this doesn't mean that I regard prisoners as "chattel"....
more like "societal liabilities".

[AdrianK]

The problem with prisons is that they serve no purpose (expect making money) beyond removing criminals from society. This system wouldn't be such a bad one except they aren't very good at it and tend to let the criminals back into society.

The assumption being that their "time out" will be punishment enough to convince them that their criminal behavior isn't very cost effective.

For those few whose criminal activities were based on ignorance, carelessness, accident, or extreme emotion, that "time out" may be enough for them to pull their head out of their ass.

But for the rest, who knowing the consequences make a conscious decision to commit a crime, a "time out" will not produce any kind of rehabilitation. For career criminals, they have weighed the risk/reward balance sheet and keep coming up with rewards.

This points to two major problems with the "corrections" system.

One, the threat of punishment is not severe enough to deter criminal behavior.

Two, there is a serious lack of correction in the "corrections" system.

Those we don't want in our society ever again should be "punished" by never letting them out. (Violent offender convicted multiple times should be killed, that should eliminate any miscarriage of justice.) Make it quick and cheep too.

Those we do intend to let back should be given a serious effort at rehabilitation.

To make the punishment more severe without being too harsh, a value judgment that few will ever agree on. We should do more to remove prisoners from society. No parole for violent offenders, if anyone. No phone calls, no letters, no visits, except from their lawyer. Some gang leaders use these methods to order criminal activities, even through their lawyers. No weights, for gods sakes. No TV's, or personal items of any kind. No beds they can have mat on the floor, and an Asian style hole for a toilet. This will mean fewer items to make weapons out of. Every prisoner should be in solitary confinement. Prisoners should be chemically castrated and/or given other calming medications. Violence, including sexual assault, is rampant. Prisoners are forced to ally with groups of their own race, and commit violence on the groups behalf to survive. Leading nonviolent and violent criminals to become more violent and antisocial.

Violent offenders are released to make way for nonviolent first time offenders, and most people, if they survive the prison experience, are worse off when they get out.

For rehabilitation, Nonviolent offenders should not be housed with violent offenders. The prisons should be segregated by offense, gang affiliations, and race, and they should be confined to smaller populations. Soothing tai chi music, depak chopra, etc should be played 24/7. Uniforms should be pink with hello kitties on them. Instead of basketball and weight lifting for exercise, they should be offered emasculating exercises like yoga, Pilate's, maybe a bike that goes no where. First time non-violent offenders should not be sent to prison but to a rehabilitation center. psychological counseling should be made available, to those without personality disorders. Education, GED and 2 year vocational degrees should be made available, and early release or parole should be made conditional on the completion of a rehabilitation program.

Would it cost more. Intitially yes. In the long run probably about the same.


Wow, you've just got it all figured out.
Being as smart as you are, you should take your views to some of the major political networks. :rolleyes:

Oh right, what are your qualifications again?

Any professional experience with the political system?

Any professional experience in criminal psychology?

Any professional experience with law enforcement? Or criminal law?


No see, the problem with prisons are we're imprisoning a good majority of people for the wrong reasons. The War on Drugs is a ridiculous waste of time, money and energy. Not only that, but the people we're imprisoning who went to jail for, for instance, selling marijuana (B. F. D.), are in a horrible position to get any kind of decent job when they get out of jail.

Then our system of law has become so incredibly complex that it is impossible to get any kind of decent representation without a lot of money. That means the poor who ARE innocent, will likely go to jail simply because of incompetent representation. The poor who ARE guilty, but are guilty of LESSER crimes, will go to jail for LONGER because of incompetent representation.

As for violent offenders, usually there is a psychological reason behind it. Sometimes they can be rehabilitated, sometimes they can't. Usually its circumstance. From a psychological perspective, Rapists and child molesters are less likely to be "evil" people, and more likely to be "sick" people, whose circumstances growing up, caused them to be the way they are.

Other violent offenses, such as shootings and assaults, are usually gang conflicts - And the world of being a gang member is a far different one than the world me and you live in. There are special considerations that need to be addressed. Plenty of gang members are forced into the lifestyle and the shootings, the fights, the stabbing and such are the only way they know how to live. The best thing for them would probably be to SEPARATE them from any gang affiliations in prison, instead of grouping them together as such.

Anyways, the point is, I'm glad people like you, don't make the laws.

But then again, I'm not so happy with the people who do, either. But I'm sure as hell not educated enough to change it, or to even understand if there is a BETTER way to do things, which would take an extreme understanding of all factors involved. Because its all give and take. The most ideal sounding ideas are usually the most unrealistic ones.

[BoulderDawg]

Wow, you've just got it all figured out.
Being as smart as you are, you should take your views to some of the major political networks. :rolleyes:

Oh right, what are your qualifications again?

Any professional experience with the political system?

Any professional experience in criminal psychology?

Any professional experience with law enforcement? Or criminal law?

So the only people who should have opinions on anything are experts in the field?

What's funny though is that you make the above statement, then you give your opinion, then you say the following:


I'm sure as hell not educated enough to change it, or to even understand if there is a BETTER way to do things

[AdrianK]

So the only people who should have opinions on anything are experts in the field?

You can have opinions on anything.

But a specific reform of the prison system without a proper understanding of any of these things, is ridiculous.



What's funny though is that you make the above statement, then you give your opinion, then you say the following:

I was trying to make the point that while I have an understanding of some things, none of us here are qualified to have a legitimate opinion on these things.

Why? Well, even if you were able to, somehow, through your genius, understand everything without ever being a professional in any of these fields - It would still take a hell of a lot more thought and effort, than a simple post.

These things take months, sometimes years of hammering things out with experts in the fields.

Theres a reason for that.

[SanHeChuan]

Wow, you've just got it all figured out.

I posted to invite discussion. That's what forums do, they discuss. :rolleyes:


No see, the problem with prisons are we're imprisoning a good majority of people for the wrong reasons. Blah blah blah The poor who ARE guilty, but are guilty of LESSER crimes, will go to jail for LONGER because of incompetent representation.

I don't disagree. Less a problem with prisons and more a problem with the court system.


As for violent offenders, usually there is a psychological reason behind it.

Again, and I advocated counseling. Where do you see the disagreement? If you have a good rehabilitation program in place and they go through it and still come back, then obviously we can't fix'm, so why not fry'm? :confused:


Plenty of gang members are forced into the lifestyle and the shootings, the fights, the stabbing and such are the only way they know how to live. The best thing for them would probably be to SEPARATE them from any gang affiliations in prison, instead of grouping them together as such.

How do you suppose we separate them from any gang affiliations in prison? Gang members make up over half of the population is some prisons.

at least by placing them only in population where they all share the same affiliations there will be no Intra-gang violence.


Anyways, the point is, I'm glad people like you, don't make the laws.

Yes because,
Placing First time offenders in rehabilitation programs instead of jail.
Offering better rehabilitation to those who do go to jail.
Discouraging aggressive behaviors, and protecting prisoners from each other.
And keeping the unreachable out of society.

Are all horrible ideas. :rolleyes:

Please point out the specific items you disagree with so I can confirm your reading comprehension.

[AdrianK]

^


One, the threat of punishment is not severe enough to deter criminal behavior.



No parole for violent offenders, if anyone. No phone calls, no letters, no visits, except from their lawyer.



No weights, for gods sakes. No TV's, or personal items of any kind.



Every prisoner should be in solitary confinement.



Prisoners should be chemically castrated and/or given other calming medications.


The second half of your post I agreed with.
But its this first half thats very extreme.

[BoulderDawg]

You can have opinions on anything.

But a specific reform of the prison system without a proper understanding of any of these things, is ridiculous.


I was trying to make the point that while I have an understanding of some things, none of us here are qualified to have a legitimate opinion on these things.


How old are you?

The post you addressed was pure opinion and suggestions. Everyone is qualified to have a legitimate opinion on anything.

I have no problem with that but I do have a problem with your post:


Other violent offenses, such as shootings and assaults, are usually gang conflicts

That is total BS. If not I would like to see the back up for it.

[SanHeChuan]

One, the threat of punishment is not severe enough to deter criminal behavior.

Well it is not.

http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/hiphopmediatraining/47509/dmx-adopts-pink-prison-wardrobe/



Requiring male prisoners to wear pink undergarments is emasculating, but listening to DMX talk about going to jail as if it is a hangout spot is not fine either.

Since so many repeat offenders are all to willing to go back to jail, we should make jail less appealing. If the purpose of jail is to take away their freedom, and we as a society are ok with that. Then the only way to make it more of a punishment would be to take away more freedoms.


No parole for violent offenders, if anyone.
What good is the threat of jail if you don't have to stay in it.


No phone calls, no letters, no visits, except from their lawyer.
Many prisons use the contacts with the outside to continue to conduct illegal activities, and to smuggle in contraband that puts other prisoners at risk.


No weights, for gods sakes.
Buy letting prisoners engage in competitive sports and activities that encourage aggression, we are not helping them reform. Let them exercise sure but in a way that is more peaceful.


No TV's, or personal items of any kind.
Do you let your kids watch TV when they are grounded. What kind of punishment is sending you kids to their room when all their toy are there. Not to mention that they use those personal items to make weapons and incite violence.


Every prisoner should be in solitary confinement.
I would much rather spend my time in jail alone than being butt raped and stabbed. Isolating them from each other would limit their ability to perform acts of violence on each other.


Prisoners should be chemically castrated and/or given other calming medications.
The effects of the meds only last for as long as you take them, so when you get out you go back to normal. If you went to jail for white collar crime, you'd want buba to not be able to ass rape you. Or would you? :eek::confused:

[bawang]

make tai chi and qigong mandatory for all prisoners
lol

[notanexit]

make tai chi and qigong mandatory for all prisoners
lol

Have you seen the prison shows on cable?These guys can turn a plastic bag into a shank.You give them tai chi and they'll do what most teachers in the u.s. cant do...figure out how to use it for combat:eek:.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i think corporal punishment would be more effective. and then the hardasses who aren't deterred by cainings . . . lock those guys up.

[golden arhat]

for those that think drafting is the answer

IT ISNT , here in the uk anyway. ask anyone in the military and the answer will be the same

"we dont want them" why would they want the worst of society? they wont make good soldiers.



my solution is to just have prisoners work their sentence away doing community service under armed guard, reagrdless of their crime either alone or together as a group

doing something productive and letting them see normal people go abotu their daily lives and have freedom would be the worst punishment


like bawang said about rich and poor in the west and in china
its worse here because they CAN SEE the rich right in front of them, enjoying their shiny things,


attach armed guards to a dump truck and prisoners on chains to the trucjk and make them peick up peoples garbage

take a group of inamtes out with guards to their old neihborhood and make them clean up and then go back to prison accomodation for the night


i think thats a good and useful punishment which makes life better for the society they wronged.

[AdrianK]

The post you addressed was pure opinion and suggestions. Everyone is qualified to have a legitimate opinion on anything.

:confused:
So you're saying for instance, the radical ki guys are qualified, and have legitimate opinions about chi power?

Thats an extreme case, absolutely. But its just another case of someone talking about something they have little understanding of.

You have the RIGHT to an opinion. That doesn't mean it is legitimate, and it doesn't make you qualified to comment on something you know nothing about.

I'm not saying that the OP has no knowledge on these subjects, I'm simply saying that he has no qualifications to back up his opinions.

Just as I'd have no qualifications to back up an opinion on quantum physics, even though I can explain to you what it is and speculate on things I've read about it.



That is total BS. If not I would like to see the back up for it.

I'll find you some actual statistics. But is it really incredibly hard to believe? In the days of prohibition the majority of murders and gun crime were from major crime families.

Now instead of crime families running the show, southern california for instance, has countless numbers of gangs, which these gangs also have tons of unregistered firearms, tons of drugs, and plenty of reason to kill each other.



Since so many repeat offenders are all to willing to go back to jail, we should make jail less appealing.

And theres plenty of people who don't expect to get caught and go to jail, and won't care because they're committing crimes out of what they feel is some kind of necessity.

Take a look at some of the extremely severe sentences in other countries, and how much have they dropped crime in those areas?



What good is the threat of jail if you don't have to stay in it.

Thats why there are life sentences. People who have been given chances and failed repeatedly or people who have committed extreme crimes, generally don't get out for decades, if not life, if not the death penalty.



Many prisons use the contacts with the outside to continue to conduct illegal activities, and to smuggle in contraband that puts other prisoners at risk.

Have you ever been to a prison? Do you realize how difficult it is, if not impossible, to smuggle in anything? The problem is internal corruption. Not contact with the outside. There are plenty of people in prison with cell phones and they didn't get them because someones mom smuggled it up their ass.



Buy letting prisoners engage in competitive sports and activities that encourage aggression, we are not helping them reform. Let them exercise sure but in a way that is more peaceful.

Competitive sports are activities that also relieve aggressive impulses.
If you mean, give them the opportunity to reform with exercises that are peaceful, there are plenty of those already in place.



I would much rather spend my time in jail alone than being butt raped and stabbed. Isolating them from each other would limit their ability to perform acts of violence on each other.

And it'd also be incredibly difficult, time consuming, and costly.
Not only that, but you're also destroying their ability for social reform.

Yes, there is plenty of prison violence, fights, stabbings, etc.
But show me evidence that the majority of prisoners are involved in these acts.



The effects of the meds only last for as long as you take them, so when you get out you go back to normal. If you went to jail for white collar crime, you'd want buba to not be able to ass rape you. Or would you?

With the way you're talking about it, you'd think every prisoner who gets sent to jail has a big black cell mate who assrapes them constantly.

This isn't really the case.

[AJM]

Solitary confinement and shorter sentences would take care of most of the problems. Murderers and rapist excluded.

[SanHeChuan]

I'm not saying that the OP has no knowledge on these subjects, I'm simply saying that he has no qualifications to back up his opinions.

What qualifications do you have to say my opinions are wrong. :eek: By your own logic you shouldn't even be participating in this discussion. :p Hypocrite. :mad: but here you are throwing your opinions around like they mean something. ;)


Thats why there are life sentences. People who have been given chances and failed repeatedly or people who have committed extreme crimes, generally don't get out for decades, if not life, if not the death penalty.

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20090122/local/probation-period-extended-just-a-week-before-san-gwann-murder


Have you ever been to a prison? Do you realize how difficult it is, if not impossible, to smuggle in anything? The problem is internal corruption. Not contact with the outside. There are plenty of people in prison with cell phones and they didn't get them because someones mom smuggled it up their ass.

Have you ever been to prison? Then how would you know? Hypocrite. :mad:


Cellphones are making their way into jails and prison through all kinds of methods: They're stuffed inside mayonnaise jars, hidden in compost piles, shoved into the soles of shoes, slipped inside hollowed-out blocks of cheese.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0611/p01s04-usju.html


Competitive sports are activities that also relieve aggressive impulses.

Exercise relieves aggression, less so if it is an aggressive sport.


Activities should be non-competitive and ego void. Although competition was highlighted above as a positive function, for some wining becomes the most important part of competition. The downside of competition for overly competitive people is that they sometimes lose. This works to decrease esteem and increase depression.
http://www.imt.net/~randolfi/ExerciseStress.html

http://www.newsminer.com/news/2009/feb/08/contrary-popular-belief-venting-only-increases-ang/


Not only that, but you're also destroying their ability for social reform.

I do not intend traditional solitary confinement.

Isolation today means 23 hours a day in a concrete cell no bigger than a bathroom. One hour a day is spent alone in a concrete exercise pen, about the length and width of two cars.

Isolate them from other prisoners but allow them to interact socially in a positive way in a rehabilitation program.


But show me evidence that the majority of prisoners are involved in these acts.

Don't need a majority a few predators can kill a herd in a confined area.


According to statistics provided by the commission, there were more than 34,000 reports of inmates assaulting inmates in a 12month period of 1999-2000. That represented a 32 percent increase from the same period five years earlier.

In that same span of 1999-2000, nearly 18,000 prison employees were assaulted -- a jump of 27 percent from 1994-95.


With the way you're talking about it, you'd think every prisoner who gets sent to jail has a big black cell mate who assrapes them constantly.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/voices.html


“When nearly one in 20 prisoners reports being raped or sexually abused behind bars, it is clear that prison authorities are not doing enough to prevent these serious crimes,” said Jamie Fellner, senior counsel of the US Program at Human Rights Watch.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/12/15/us-federal-statistics-show-widespread-prison-rape


In 2001, Human Rights Watch released a report that gathered data from various surveys and studies which revealed that at least 20 percent of all inmates are sexually assaulted and at least 7 percent are raped.
http://www.anairhoads.org/criminaljustice/prisonrapes.shtml

Whats 20% of 2.3 million? :rolleyes: There are even reports of guards assraping prisoners. :eek:

[AdrianK]

What qualifications do you have to say my opinions are wrong

I never did say you were wrong. I say I disagree with your opinions, and I even said we both don't have the qualifications to decide how to reform prisons!



http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...n-gwann-murder

And unfortunately because of incompetent judges and prosecutors, things like this happen and would continue to happen regardless.



Have you ever been to prison? Then how would you know? Hypocrite

I've been to prisons to visit people. It would be ridiculously dangerous and difficult to smuggle something in.



Exercise relieves aggression, less so if it is an aggressive sport.

Thats pretty debatable. I get my aggression out a hell of a lot more when sparring, then I do while weight lifting. I feel more aggressive after weight lifting and less aggressive after sparring.

But thats just me. There are numerous conflicting psychological studies to suggest both.



I do not intend traditional solitary confinement.

Then say that!



Isolate them from other prisoners but allow them to interact socially in a positive way in a rehabilitation program.

Which is a pretty good idea.



Don't need a majority a few predators can kill a herd in a confined area.
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/20...on/voices.html

Again, its still a minority. How many hundreds of thousands are in prison?



Whats 20% of 2.3 million?

Your report is from 8 years ago. :rolleyes:



There are even reports of guards assraping prisoners.

Another problem with internal corruption, and something that would happen regardless. :|

[Drake]

I'm not locked in here with you...


YOU'RE LOCKED IN HERE WITH ME!!!!

[AdrianK]

^
I agree.

I vote to put a Rorschach in every prison.

[David43515]

The biggest problem with prisons is that we don`t have enough of them.

[AdrianK]

We'd have enough if we stopped putting people in prison for victimless so-called "crimes" :)

[Drake]

I don't mind paying for prisons. What upsets me is knowing in the back of my mind that some of my tax dollars paid someone's bonus at AIG. That should make your %^&$ing skin crawl...

[AdrianK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lakCzCyU3z8

The reality of prisons :D

[Drake]

"That's what makes it rape!"