How personal can you make your wing chun without it turning into something else?

[MrQuickstep]

[Noob here so please take it easy on me!]


Can you personalize your Wing Chun (forms,drills,footwork,etc) to suit your needs while still following the concepts and it be wing chun.

Like using some jkd drills but using wing chun shapes and concepts.

[anerlich]

I think that at some stage you have to start personalising it.

You should follw your instructor's advice until you have a reasonable spectrum of techniques.

It's not a set of stone tablets, it's a framework for creativity.

[sihing]

[Noob here so please take it easy on me!]


Can you personalize your Wing Chun (forms,drills,footwork,etc) to suit your needs while still following the concepts and it be wing chun.

Like using some jkd drills but using wing chun shapes and concepts.

I kinda see it this way. Wing Chun is the training. You expressing it is the application, and that is just you. One is learning, one is using.

So, when training and learning, you should keep things pretty strict, adhereing to whatever you are learning, following to a high degree whatever concept, prinicple and ideas are present within your training system. WC is deep into this type of stuff. Within the WC system, there is a testing system set up, but this must be done with someone already ahead of you on the path, someone that can recognize where you were, and where are now and if you are going down the path the right way. WC is about feeling it within yourself for the most part, the understanding of it (like reading about it or watching DVD's), helps you a bit, but none of this will make you feel it for yourself.

Now in application, or personalization of it, it is only you expressing it, not WC. Hopefully the training has altered how you react, how you move, how you attack and such. Sparring can be a testing ground, for you to see what has improved, and what needs work. It is then that you go back to the training to work on improving your strengths and weaknesses. So basically at this stage anything goes, there are no real right or wrongs, only if it works or not. If it doesn't go back to the drawing board.

James

[clam61]

[Noob here so please take it easy on me!]


Can you personalize your Wing Chun (forms,drills,footwork,etc) to suit your needs while still following the concepts and it be wing chun.

Like using some jkd drills but using wing chun shapes and concepts.

it is very common to want to do this. combining techniques from anywhere you think work well into your own style.

however you must fully understand the styles you draw from to combine correctly.

[MrQuickstep]

[I like how this thread is going!]

I understand what you guys are saying...

Let see if I could be a little more clear, there are some styles of wing chun that use 0/100, 40/60 and 50/50 weight distribution, some use a flat tan sao while others use a straight tan sao...then we have the internal and external styles.
My question is if all these styles are still wing chun...what is wing chun?
What is the meat and potatoes of the art?


And about the jkd drills...I'm not talking about adding there techniques to wing chun but using there drills to unlock our own techniques.

[Matrix]

[I like how this thread is going!]
Let see if I could be a little more clear, there are some styles of wing chun that use 0/100, 40/60 and 50/50 weight distribution, some use a flat tan sao while others use a straight tan sao...then we have the internal and external styles.
My question is if all these styles are still wing chun...what is wing chun?
What is the meat and potatoes of the art?Finding out what is the meat and potatoes of the art is what your training is all about, IMO. You need to try the variations that you've mentioned and understand why they work or don't work in a given situation. You should be developing skills and attributes that you can apply automatically, not learning robotic sequences of movements. Why get hung up on labels and rhetoric?

Bill

[AdrianK]

My question is if all these styles are still wing chun...what is wing chun?
What is the meat and potatoes of the art?

Wing chun is a set of concepts and physical templates.
The physical templates are a way to learn and understand the concepts.

Not the other way around.

Just like a jab is a defined concept, shift your weight, step in, rotate the hips, rotate the shoulders, throw out the lead hand, twist the arm, tense at the point of impact.

But its application in real fighting can and is variable.

You don't NEED to be in a specific stance to throw a jab. Look at how many different, incredibly effective jabs there are in the professional levels of boxing.

Then look at the rest of the techniques used.

Take the concept of the tan sao for instance and learn to understand it completely, then express it in a way that fits your body type, your physical strengths, personality and mental abilities.

Then see how many variations of it you can effectively apply.

Just because Sifu says a Tan Sao needs to be done this specific way always no matter what, doesn't mean there aren't other effective ways of doing it. The human body is so incredibly complex that some "dude" or "chick" 400 years ago couldn't possibly have understood the *PERFECT* way for *EVERYONE* to do a tan sao, or even every variation that worked.

Thats why you focus on the concept, and use the pre-determined movement as a template to develop.

In reality the only place martial arts "styles" exist is in peoples heads. The idea that you would learn how to fight like a "style" or like a person thats been dead for 400 years, is ridiculous. You have just one style, your personal, human expression. And that my friend, is a variable that constantly changes based on your daily life and training.

[Edmund]

[I like how this thread is going!]

Let see if I could be a little more clear, there are some styles of wing chun that use 0/100, 40/60 and 50/50 weight distribution, some use a flat tan sao while others use a straight tan sao...then we have the internal and external styles.
My question is if all these styles are still wing chun...what is wing chun?
What is the meat and potatoes of the art?


There are variations of WC due to different lineages.
Just like different flavours of meat and potatoes.

When you begin to understand meat and potatoes, you can also try other variations of cooking meat and potatoes to create your own personal meat and potatoes.

We do NOT add broccoli. Absolutely NO broccoli can be added. Otherwise you ruin your meat and potatoes and offend your ancestors. While they may be great and effective food for other people, demonstrating their effectiveness in real meals, broccoli unfortunately cannot mix with meat and potatoes. You can't even have it on the side in a separate dish.

Similarly Glorified Tofu is a poor substitute for actual meat.

[t_niehoff]

[I like how this thread is going!]

I understand what you guys are saying...

Let see if I could be a little more clear, there are some styles of wing chun that use 0/100, 40/60 and 50/50 weight distribution, some use a flat tan sao while others use a straight tan sao...then we have the internal and external styles.
My question is if all these styles are still wing chun...what is wing chun?
What is the meat and potatoes of the art?


And about the jkd drills...I'm not talking about adding there techniques to wing chun but using there drills to unlock our own techniques.

Here's my perspective, take it fwiw:

As I see it, the movements/actions, or tools, of WCK is the core (the "meat and potatoes" as you call it) of WCK. This is true for any martial art. We identify any art by the use of their specific tools. We can look at boxing and see its tools (jab, cross, hook, bob-and-weave, etc.) at work. We can look at wrestling and see its tools (sprawl, peek-out,double-leg, etc.) at work. If we look at someone claiming to be a boxer or a wrestler and did not see them using to any significant degree the tools of their style/method, we would be hard-pressed to say they were using their art. The same is true for WCK.

The tools of WCK we learn via forms (tools performed solo in the air) and exercises/drills, like lop sao, chi sao, etc. (tools performed with a partner while in contact). These things IMO will give us the tools of WCK (an ability to perform the movement/actions comfortably and reliably), they will not and cannot teach us how to USE, i.e.,fight with, those tools. Your comment about differences in the appearance of the tools goes to the inherent adaptability of the tools (the height of bridge hands will vary depending on the height of the opponent's arm, for example).

Your main question seems to be about how to make the leap from learning/developing the tools to USING (fighting with) the tools.

I think the answer is to look at how other functional martial arts accomplish this. How do boxers, for example, learn to box (apply their tools)? How do wrrestler's learn to wrestle (apply their tools)? And you can even extend it to any physical activity, like sport. How do you learn to swim, to ski, to surf, to ride a bike?

In my view, you can only learn to do something by and through actually doing it. You learn to box by boxing. You learn to wrestle by wrestling. You learn to fight using WCK tools by fighting with WCK tools. That's the only way. You can't learn to fight by not fighting. You can't learn to swim by not swimming or howto surf by not surfing or how to ski by not skiing.

So, in a nutshell, if you want to develop realistic fighting skills using WCK tools, you need to practice using those tools underrealistic, i.e., fighting, conditions. That means making sparring (the target activity itself) the coreof your training. And if you drill, make the drills correspond to snippets of the fight -- commonly occurring situations that arise while fighting. This is what boxers, wrestlers, muay thai, MMA, etc. fighters do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[Noob here so please take it easy on me!]


Can you personalize your Wing Chun (forms,drills,footwork,etc) to suit your needs while still following the concepts and it be wing chun.

Like using some jkd drills but using wing chun shapes and concepts.

After a while your WC will be just that, YOUR WC, it may be similar to other WC, but it will be YOURS.
The way you fight, the way you move, your body type and such, all will make your WC just that, Yours.

[MrQuickstep]

Ok I get it "Make the art your's" and "Train for reality".

Thanks guys for the assist , you gave me a couple ideas for some new threads.

Now I shall pick your brains till its empty :) .

[couch]

Ok I get it "Make the art your's" and "Train for reality".

Thanks guys for the assist , you gave me a couple ideas for some new threads.

Now I shall pick your brains till its empty :) .

Along the same lines, you can think of how music gets personalized. Jazz is about 'breaking all the rules.' The only way, however, to learn how to play Jazz is to formally study music: all the rules, notes, timing, how to read and write music, etc. Then after you have a core-base understanding, you get to 'play' with your music. You can break the rules, personalize it.

Gaining this core-base understanding can take years - but the whole idea of sparring/fighting with your WC and then going back to the drawing board is a VERY good way to make the WC yours. And people will never doubt you, because you've taken yourself out of your comfort zone and come to the conclusions yourself.

[AdrianK]

Along the same lines, you can think of how music gets personalized. Jazz is about 'breaking all the rules.' The only way, however, to learn how to play Jazz is to formally study music: all the rules, notes, timing, how to read and write music, etc. Then after you have a core-base understanding, you get to 'play' with your music. You can break the rules, personalize it.

Thats a great way of looking at things.
Music and Martial Arts have a ton in common. In fact, any kind of expression, whether it be music, dancing, painting, they all share things in common that can help you understand your martial arts better.

Thats why its important to be well-rounded as a person. Even if it doesn't add any kind of external power to your martial arts, it can add understanding to your life and yourself, which will add to everything you do.

[RGVWingChun]

What is the meat and potatoes of the art? VERY nice question...is it the techniques or the concepts?

I think its the concepts. Techniques should be reflections of the concepts.

So then the question is what are the concepts? I think Siu Lim Tao represents the meat and potatoe being the "little idea" and in a sense, the "main idea" which is CENTERLINE. Now, by this I understand not just the physical centerline, but all those lines that are the most direct path to our target, whether it be with fist or hands or whatever....

my humble opinion

Moses

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is the meat and potatoes of the art? VERY nice question...is it the techniques or the concepts?

I think its the concepts. Techniques should be reflections of the concepts.

So then the question is what are the concepts? I think Siu Lim Tao represents the meat and potatoe being the "little idea" and in a sense, the "main idea" which is CENTERLINE. Now, by this I understand not just the physical centerline, but all those lines that are the most direct path to our target, whether it be with fist or hands or whatever....

my humble opinion

Moses

Forms can't be the "example" of the concepts of a fighting system, only the application of that system in fighting AND holding true to those concepts can be viewed as a true representation of those concepts.

[RGVWingChun]

If forms can't represent concepts , then is it your position that the forms are useless?

How do you demonstrate concepts for fighting that involve physical material without materializing them into techniques? This makes no sense!!

As I see it, Wing Chun is like a circle that represents the complete(yes, infinite) amount of techniques contained within the system. Each form takes bits and pieces that are like ideas of the main concept(s) of Wing Chun and give ideas of how to use the ideas. Each form from Siu Lim Tao to the Baat Jam Do are like "still frames" from a motion picture that are taken out to show pieces of the whole....when we put them together and apply the principles/concepts we get Wing Chun.

Hence, techniques by themselves are nothing without the substances that teaches how they are to be used, when, why, the energies, etc....

That is why I believe the forms themselves represent a kind of cirriculum that just needs to be expounded upon, through theory and Chi Sao to fighting ultimately.

But all the forms have at the very least the concept of "center" in them, which is why I think the "meat and potatoes" of Wing Chun is the Centerline theory AT THE VERY LEAST....would also say "recieve what comes, follow what leaves, laat sao jek cheung" is also an important one....structure....etc...

my humble opinion,

Moses

[sanjuro_ronin]

If forms can't represent concepts , then is it your position that the forms are useless?

How do you demonstrate concepts for fighting that involve physical material without materializing them into techniques? This makes no sense!!

As I see it, Wing Chun is like a circle that represents the complete(yes, infinite) amount of techniques contained within the system. Each form takes bits and pieces that are like ideas of the main concept(s) of Wing Chun and give ideas of how to use the ideas. Each form from Siu Lim Tao to the Baat Jam Do are like "still frames" from a motion picture that are taken out to show pieces of the whole....when we put them together and apply the principles/concepts we get Wing Chun.

Hence, techniques by themselves are nothing without the substances that teaches how they are to be used, when, why, the energies, etc....

That is why I believe the forms themselves represent a kind of cirriculum that just needs to be expounded upon, through theory and Chi Sao to fighting ultimately.

But all the forms have at the very least the concept of "center" in them, which is why I think the "meat and potatoes" of Wing Chun is the Centerline theory AT THE VERY LEAST....would also say "recieve what comes, follow what leaves, laat sao jek cheung" is also an important one....structure....etc...

my humble opinion,

Moses

Forms are not useless, they are the "alphabet" of any TMA system.
They may not be needed, but they are far from useless.
My point is that, MA are fighting systems and as such, the "litmus test" of a MA and its concepts is fighting.
Take any concept of WC and the true test of being able to apply that concept in a fight, what it was designed for by the way, is by fighting.

[RGVWingChun]

Forms are not useless, they are the "alphabet" of any TMA system.
They may not be needed, but they are far from useless.
My point is that, MA are fighting systems and as such, the "litmus test" of a MA and its concepts is fighting.
Take any concept of WC and the true test of being able to apply that concept in a fight, what it was designed for by the way, is by fighting.

As I recall, there is a shaolin saying, "weak mind, weak fist; strong mind, no need for fist."

I agree that the forms, Siu Lim Tao, in particular represent a kind of Alphabet that can be put together but doesn't that just make my point? Individual letters themselves in parts of a sentences carry with them their own way of representing something? IN this analogy, "language" and "symbolic communication" are represented in the alphabet ? Are not the individual letters the "still pictures" that each point to a larger idea or some idea that connects them all?

The question was not what is the "litmus" test but what is the "meat and potatoes" of Wing Chun? Is it fighting? If it is fighting, then isn't "Wing Chun" also MMA, or street fighting, or any other martial style that fights? Surely it has to go beyond fighting but to a particular WAY TO FIGHT. Again, I offer the centerline at the very least, as the "meat and potatoes" of Wing Chun.

humbly,

Moses