cross training style

[tanglangman]

Just curious, does anyoune cross train their mantis style with another form of martial art? If so to what effect?

[This message was edited by tanglangman on 02-02-01 at 06:05 AM.]

[robertwilliam]

No, not a good idea - you can't serve two masters.If you are practicing your system or style, you should have 100% faith in your sifu, and the system.
On the other hand, conditioning excercises, like pushups, situps, or cardio training that you would do in one style, would help the other.The great thing about kung fu I think, is the uniqueness of each style, and the training methods and philosiphy of each different style. I know I couldn't do it, I had a hell of a time trying to learn Hung Ga and Mantis at the same time. And here's a weird thing - after mantis training, I used to feel as though I could jump over cars in the parking lot, and after Hung Ga, I felt like a 500lb Gorilla. And then, there is always the subliminal thoughts when you are at practice of "why in the hell would sifu do this , this way" , and second guessing, and so forth - do like the Beach Boys, and "be true to your school "

[mikeW]

Sounds like someone running? Just my opinion coming from a karate & Jujitsu background that, idea gives me the chills!!!.I've seen to many people add an mix different styles mainly because they had not stayed around long enough to learned enough in what ever style they choose,"if I can use that word".All systems have principls that make them what they are if only pratitioners would take the time to seriously learn and practice!!! them. We would have more inspiring dialog.Sorry about the sarcaisim in the beginning. I guess that's why I don't write much.
I don't recommend mixing styles there is more than enough to learn,perfect,and master in any system.
Sifu Mike Whetstone(chatsing).

[ansgenius1]

Even if you have faith in your sifu, it doesn't hurt to learn new methods. I am in college and I don't get to learn from my sifu during the school year, so I practice with other people interested in martial arts. This helps review things that I may forget and learn some new training exercises that improve areas I may have neglected.

[LizMantis]

I dont know about anyone else but I got mantis. Thats all I need...

www.kungfuexchange.com (http://www.kungfuexchange.com)

[cha kuen]

Mantis is a very very rich style. However you could use tai chi, shuai chiao, wrestling or to compliment it. Those won't conflict. Just keep one style as your MAIN style.

[Shaolin Temple]

Most of you may be thinking...how ignorant...not quite. Shaolin kung fu doesn't just restrict itself to five animals, five ancestors, praying mantis, lo han and etc...it is everything.
It is about the art, the science and philosophy of life.
If you study one style, keep doing it until you feel confident that you are proficient in it then, if you still have the urge to cross-train, go for it. Some styles may start off slow and you may get impatient and leave before you taste the sweetness of the fruit...it is like they say in the west, you walk all the way to the door and then turn back. What a waste.

Cross-train or not...the choice is yours. What is the sole purpose of you learning martial arts? Fighting? Cultivating yourself? The answer is within you.

Amitabha.

[Whambo]

Don't crosstrain? My lord, I guess if you're in Mantis you're not really looking to learn how to fight, but for real don't let these guys tell you you shouldn't crosstrain if it is what you're looking for.

[robertwilliam]

Yes, Whambo you are 100.00% correct!!! - Us mantids all tryed to combine Bjj, Sambo, and kick boxing as you are attempting to - but alas, failed miserably.We had to settle for training in praying mantis which, by the way, has absolutly no fighting techniques whatsoever as you alluded to.We hope that mantis will evolve into the "mighty three global diversity style" you you are currently inventing right now, but if not, perhaps your lower students could show us some basic movements so that we can be real fighters someday... (I hope, and pray)

[hymenopus_coronadus]

If Wang Lang had never cross trained, there would be no Praying Mantis........If Jiang Hua Long never cross trained, there would be no 8 Step.

[loki]

I crosstrain different styles but with the same Sifu. 7 Star Mantis and Hung Gar. It gives me a great balancing effect. Yes, I am able to seperate the two and stay true to each particular style's flavor / essence. Not easy to do at first but can be done , especially when you are being taught by the same Sifu. My mantis is better than my Hung Gar but I think my Hung Gar is also pretty good. The difference would probably be that I rely more on my mantis for fighting. It is more second nature for me than the Hung because I have put more time into the mantis.

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Whambo]

Why gee robert you're smart... Every MMA pro fighter in the world cross trains, I wonder who to believe, them or a keyboard warrior. Every master should if he's smart tell you to experience other styles, it's how progession is made, and expand your horizons. There's a reason why pro boxers train in western boxing not praying mantis, take a guess why.

[loki]

Rob, don't pay this person mind. He's obviously trolling.

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Whambo]

I'm trolling? This guy thinks that you shouldn't crosstrain and i'm trolling? My oh my, educate yourselves...

[loki]

I don't have a problem with crosstraining but if someone does not choose to do so that's their perrogative. What exactly are you implying about the mantis system? Sounds like trolling to me. For your information the mantis system is considered an "eclectic" system in that it is made up of 18 different styles. Sounds like a whole lot of cross training to me don't you think? So if someone wanted to stick to just this one style for the rest of their lives they could do so since the mantis system has a lifetime of knowledge to bestow upon it's practitioners.

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[robertwilliam]

Shed the light on us Whammbo as to the reason "western boxers don't train in mantis" - please expand - does this relate to your brilliant statement about how mantis are not really "looking to learn how to fight"? If you had said that you had trained for 15 years in Sambo, Kickboxing, and BJJ and was trying to formulate something new and effective I might have had more respect for you - not 6 months as per your resume'.PS - (don't worry about how long I've trained for - It's none of your business).

[Whambo]

Was there anything untruthful about pro boxers not training in mantis? No. The point of not looking to fight was, fighting must not be your ultimate goal because you'll find better styles for combat...such ass.. wentern boxing. As for the 15 years thing, you're just showing ignorance. What kind of theory is it that you must train for 15 years in a style before cross training, and it must be for the invention of your own art. What i'm trying to do is build the style for me. Every art has weakness's and strength's and by cross training you can help those weakness's. I could quote various martial artists on the benefit of crosstraining, surely you must know Bruce Lee's opinion on it. I think telling someone they shouldn't crosstrain is very ignorant, and you should most likely shut up before you hurt someone's training. And the 6th month thing I really don't care about, and don't worry I wouldn't ask you how long you've trained, because i don't care about that either.

[robertwilliam]

Whambo - you don't know shi* about fighting, combat or MA - so 1st of all, way shut up.
I pulled the figure 15 years out of my ass. 2.How is Western Boxing better that Mantis? 3. I'd rather have one sharp knife in the drawer than ten dull ones - And that is exactly what you are saying and doing, you are insulting the sifus, and masters of this world by mixing martial arts together that you have no clue about in the first place.Are you going to create weapon sets and Qi Gung training too , to complement your personal system? There are too many cheifs and not enough indians in this world - just look at any magazine that has come out - watered - down bull**** systems and styles that some 6 month TKD student, such as yourself, has made up and marketed.Granted ,I'm not one of those "floating masters" you've seen on TV , but I know enough, that you know not what you know.

[Whambo]

"Whambo - you don't know shi* about fighting, combat or MA - so 1st of all, way shut up."

This coming from someone training in Mantis, lol.. Give me a break, my main hobby is watching MMA fights, I've seen over 200, and I study them for my own use. My instructor will be a pro fighter next year, and that's how we train, to fight. Anyone who talks to me is impressed with my fighting knowledge, but I'd rather not waste my breath on someone as close minded as yourself.


"I pulled the figure 15 years out of my ass."

That's not the only thing...

"2.How is Western Boxing better that Mantis?"

I don't know *******, why don't you ask Lennox Lewis, or every other pro boxer. It's keyboard warriors like you who can't use common sense to figure out things that gives traditional styles a bad name.

"3. I'd rather have one sharp knife in the drawer than ten dull ones - And that is exactly what you are saying and doing, you are insulting the sifus, and masters of this world by mixing martial arts together that you have no clue about in the first place.Are you going to create weapon sets and Qi Gung training too , to complement your personal system?"

Yes well, unfortunately with Mantis you're basically carrying around a butter knife... The idea with crosstraining is normally that you have one base style, and choose other styles to complement it. If you look at the styles i'm choosing to cross train in, you'd see how they complement my base style. And this insulting the masters stuff is bull****. I really respect Bruce Lee after posting here, because now I can understand all this bull**** he had to filter out from no nothing smart asses who can't think for themselves. The greatest Judoka of all time crosstrained, the greatest fighter of all time crosstrained. It's how people advance.

"There are too many cheifs and not enough indians in this world - just look at any magazine that has come out - watered - down bull**** systems and styles that some 6 month TKD student, such as yourself, has made up and marketed.Granted ,I'm not one of those "floating masters" you've seen on TV , but I know enough, that you know not what you know. "

You are totally lost on the idea of a personal system. It doesn't mean you invent a new art for marketing and a new name, it means discover what works best for yourself. I suggest you read about someone like Carlos Newton, who has more skill than you could ever grasp, and who travels many times during the year to other schools and types of training to further expand his knowledge. I don't care about most of those clowns in magazines, I care about people like Renzo Gracie, who took his own family's art and has expanded it into a training all his own. Please don't run your mouth off on what I do or don't know...

[nhbfighter_57069]

I guess I have crossed trained my mantis. I started with wrestling (4 yrs h.s. 2yrs college) and freestyle jiu-jitsu (no gi) I now and train in * Step Praying Mantis. At the time I had no stand-up and mantis is really helping me with that. I blends nice with the other styles because it helps with flowing one movement into another. Striking into throwing and such.

[mikeW]

Hey guys I'm a bit confused.In my post I distinctly used the terms mix and add as I have seen so many MA do and mainly because what they had learned wasn't enough to fill a cup.I simply was giving advice to someone NOT!!! to do that because before you know it there is a new style simply because practitioners need to fill gaps in their training.If you view my profile you'll see that I hve a number of styles under my belt.Learn all you can the experience is good, but at least learn something to the fullest of its depth.

Sifu Mike Whetstone(chatsing) ;)

[seung ga faat]

Gentlemen, Here's a another way of looking at the original post. Why not try training with other styles to see how your training holds up in combat.
often thoughout my time teaching I have been overtly and covertly challenged by followers of other styles.I had no idea what the person would do nor did I care. I was going to do what I do and that has always been my approach.
Training/fighting against these other styles has taught me that is no 100% move that always works. we think that if I just learn how to do this or that we will be the complete this or that but, when we are outside the kwoon with no real belief in what we do will another style help ?
Training against another style is an excellent form of cross training and when you are done ask your self whether you need to learn more about your style or just learn another style or learn a little more about yourself.
I am for crosstraining if we accept this definition (or lack of definition; I often suffer from a brain to keyboard malfunction) but make sure you have mastered yourself also. Remember the the strong overcome the weak and the smart overcome the strong.

Thanx, Sifu Othal Thomas

[This message was edited by seung ga faat on 02-15-01 at 06:54 AM.]

[This message was edited by seung ga faat on 02-15-01 at 06:57 AM.]

[robertwilliam]

Ya know what - you still don't know ****. That's my problem with you."With mantis you are carrying around a butter knife" - in regards to my 1 sharp knife instead of 10 dull - are you trying to say that mantis is ineffective? Whatever -that's the pinnacle of stupidity on your part.The praying mantis IS at the very top of all the shaolin systems - only taught to the most adept students.I've had ground fighting / grappling experience, as well as the mantis, and I'm not trying to sythisize anything - it happens naturally.And your an ingnorant ass naturally.Call me up here in Tonawanda in 10 years, and we'll see how your system is coming along.By the way Where's Ancaster? Is that like Lancaster?- thats about 20 minutes from me.

[Whambo]

If you want to prove your system, please enter a MMA fighting competition, and see how it goes. If I felt any of the Shaolin systems were more effective than the more modern arts than I would be impressed with Praying Mantis being one of the more advanced systems.

Just browsing over websites I saw so many flaws in the system, particularily the stances such as the horse stance and the god awful mantis stance..but whatever. And to answer your question Ancaster is just outside Hamilton Ontario.

[robertwilliam]

My whole point is that: I should realize that you are just barely off of mommy's tit, and don't have alot going for you other than watching videos of MMA - whatever the hell that is?? Is that like UFC ???, and putting down other martial arts - like mantis.I would offer a formal challange to you to fight, but 1.I don't want to be sued for turning your face into hamburger, and breaking your arms like twigs, and then, subsequently being thrown in jail.(BEEN THERE ,DONE THAT) I have a decent career going, and 3 childred to take care of.Your NOT a challenge to me - I wouldn't bully a looser barely out of high school.I've said my piece about you, and I acknowledge your open stupidity to martial arts in general,specifically praying mantis.My real problem is not with cross training, I realize that it is your ignorance.

[nhbfighter_57069]

I have entered MMA fights and my mantis has done well. So it can be effective is the ring or cage. Each style is only as effective as the person using it. If a person using BJJ did not train enough he can lose to a brawler, same with any style. It all comes down to the person using it.

cross train or not? you all suck.
all I can say is all styles suck. Northern is best.
northern kungfu is more superior then the south
no southern kf is good enough to defeat northern styles.all southerners are p**fs.small d!ckless and no power.only banging arms and heads.you morons will get arthritis and braindamage.hope you do morons.your art is b*llsh!
if you think you are good bring it on.you name the time and place and i'll kick your @ss

5star praying mantis

[tanglangman]

Well, that puts us all in our place. I think that this has gone far enough. Thanks for the serious input. I think 5* has thrown a few too many shrimps on his barbie either that or he’s had to many “sheila’s” knock him back. That’s the only explanation I can think of for his bitterness. The great galah (?)

Struth

[nhbfighter_57069]

Quite the intelligent post there 5 star

[edziak]

Pro Boxers don't train in mantis because the majority of its tecniques can't be used within the confines of a boxing ring. This should be rather obvious.

[Whambo]

Robert please shut up, with your weak internet warrior "I would challenges" If I were to fight you, it'd be in a ring, where you wouldn't get sued.

Your knowledge is obviously limited to Mantis, so I can basically laugh at your claims of my lack of martial arts knowledge, for no real point I've made has been addressed due to lack of understanding on your part.

As for what MMA is (once again having to explain this shows your lack of knowledge) It's the most common name along with NHB for sanctioned martial arts fights. Mantis techniques are allowed in these fights are allowed obviously, yet no Mantis fighters are in them... why is that? Oh I bet you would but you don't wanna hurt people right?

Please get off your fantasy trip of snapping my arms like twigs, I know submissions you don't. I know how to fight, you don't. Now go back to feeding your kids old man, maybe they'll believe your bull**** about how tough you are.

[nhbfighter_57069]

Whambo,
As I stated before I am an Eight Step Praying Mantis student and I do compete in MMA/NHB. Nor Am I the only one that had ever competed, Joel Sutton competed in the UFC (6&7)and he took Praying Mantis. I compete in smaller shows in the midwest as of right now. Mantis does have throws, takedowns and submissions. I am not posting this to **** you off, just informing you. I have not desire to get in between you and Robert. We have chokes, joint locks, arm bars, ankle locks and knee bars. Alot of lock similiar to BJJ. The way we get them is just different, not better or worse, just different.

[nhbfighter_57069]

Whambo,
When you look and those stances they are not used just be standing there. Mantis stance is used as such, someone punches, the hand repesent a grabbing tech. the stance is used to pull soemone forward. The are throws from horse stand, you don't stand in horse stance and start punching someone from there. We pratice punchs form horse stance because it help build leg strength. By all means train with everyone from every style. Every system has a weakness. In BJJ it was striking, western boxing and kickboxing it was stopping the takedown, in wrestling it was submissions from the guard. MMA has helped prove that. No fighter is ever complete, human nature makes us weak in different aspects. Carlos Newton and Renzo Gracie are both great fighter (would kick my a$$) but they both have lost and both have weakness. It is part the style that make a fighter and part the man. So training with alot of people does not make you a great fighter. Also because you have alot of fighting knowledge does not mean you will be a great fighter. I can't hurt though. When I am in Vegas in two weeks I will train with John Lewis (with my sifu permission) because it will help my fighting along, but also because it will help my mantis along also. If God gave you a weak chin, no matter of training can help that.

[robertwilliam]

Ok, fighting doesn't take place in a cage, octagon or cage, I think it takes place on the street, so here I will offer you a challenge - You e-mail me if you want, just click on my profile, and e-mail me. Simple ,right? I will in turn send you back an e-mail with my home address, and phone number you'll let me know if you want to do this or not.Here's the plan: You drive one hour down from Hamilton Ont. any day you want from march 1st - march 31st , - surprise me! all you have to do is tap me on the shoulder, and say "It's Whammo" ,and I will in turn hand you a $50 bill for your gas money and lunch, from there, we will take three steps backwards, and then YOU can say go.The only way to win is a ko, or submission. I'm not going to say anything to anyone, nor will I continue on this post about this issue.

[8stepsifu]

yes tai chi and shuai chiao work very well with mantis.

Whambo doesn't know what he's talking about.

Wang Long learned from 12 dudes at the same time. He was a smart prodigy and probably a cute kid. He learned all these styles and then in his adulthood, when he fully understood them, made praying mantis kung fu and developed it.


This is different than taking two years of this and then two years of that. If you grow up with a live in TKD master, JJ master, Systema master, capoira mestre, Karate Sensei, then by all means make up your own style and you have my full respect.

If you think your a bad ass for going to lots of different places to learn many versions of level one basic fighing (see the Tao of JKD for further explanation) Then cudos to you. If you want something more in depth than stay put with a main style. I guess I'm lucky because I learned punching, kicking, throwing, groundfighting and joint locks under one roof in the context of one system. And then standing grappling (tai chi) in the context of tai chi. I can mix 8 step and tai chi techniques together because they share princibles and untimatley lead to the same place. Learning both is like burning a candle at both ends. I'm not trying to believe I'm a badass for mixing striking and grappling...oooohhh! No I'm learning internal and external arts and I'm on such a road that Tai chi will become external and Mantis become internal as they meet at the higher level. I don't claim to be a bad ass and I sure as hell would keep my mouth shut if I only knew basic fighing.

BTW I've taken apart TKD/JJ guys with more training than I've had. All that "useless" intricate stuff has it's merits. All that "Useless stance work" allows my to throw people even when they have one leg and are charging in for a takedown.

[Whambo]

nhbfighter, I think that's cool that you compete. Was that Jiu Jitsu you took Brazillian or Japanese, and if it is Brazillian why did you stop? Maybe I misread and you're still doing it? I can't really remember Joel Sutton.. that should tell me he didn't do very well then. Personally I think you'd be better off in NHB with boxing and BJJ or Submission Wrestling, but to each their own I guess. One thing I think is important is you have 6 years in other styles, so are you really what could be considered a Mantis fighter? It says you have 8 months Mantis... I'd consider you a wrestler personally.

On your points... well ok, to me the Mantis and Kung Fu styles were made in mind of a certain style they'd be up against. I was reading on Hapkido which had the same problem, many of the grabs were with the concept the thrower was using a certain type of punch. In that case a straight arm punch. Problem is boxers don't throw like that, and if you go for the grab they'll clock you with the other. Another problem is it's incredibly hard to train for something like that. Christ people at my school the popular fighting style was to go all out like hockey fighting using both hands, how to prepare for that? I'll tell you how, you change your level and take em down. That's what BJJ teach's. Another obvious problem is if someone is sticking their legs in a horse stance, i'm gonna thai kick em. It's so vulnerable there.

I understand that BJJ has weakness's, and personally i'm glad it does. I'm glad it is a street effective grappling style and that's basically it, because why try and do too much? I remember someone asked I believe Bolo or Roy Harris about BJJ knife defences, and he described them and basically said that they can work, but honestly if you're looking for knife defences go to a Eskrima or another knife arts system. And it's true, that's their specialty, they would do it better. Why incorporate fancy stand up strikes, when they wouldn't go beyond that of the boxing arts? If you want to strike, you should take boxing or another striking art.

Robert, you knew I wouldn't accept that, so why even humour the challenge? I'm not travelling to a different country, to meet someone on their terms. These "street fights" you're talking about have no rules. So if you really want to take the risk of me ripping out your eyeballs when you have kids to support then you're even stupider that I had though. Oh and i'm especially sure the police would love to hear about how I travelled all this way to fight you if it went to that.

I would happily fight you in a ring, I'm sure you outweigh me, and probably have more experience than me, so why not? Hell we could even make it pure grappling, and just put money on it, I don't care.

And lastly 8step...I agree if you're just taking 2 years of this and that, then you probably are making a mistake. I think you should chose a base style, and I've chosen BJJ. The crosstraining styles I choose are to compliment it, it's that simple. I don't understand why you're saying oh I learned kicking grappling blah blah blah all in one system so that's ok. Well what if half was in mantis and half was in something else. You trained in both... would you fight any different? No only you might not be able to call in Mantis anymore.. It's not my fault BJJ doesn't have striking or doesn't emphasize leg locks to my liking, so i'm going to get them from another style, take out of them what I like and forget the rest and move on... Making myself the best I can be is my objective, and every single pro fighter who's name is worth mentioning agrees crosstraining is the way to achieve that. So think about it.

"BTW I've taken apart TKD/JJ guys with more training than I've had."

Hah gimme a break, that's so open ended it doesn't prove anything. There's a guy at my club who's been training for like 8 or 9 months who I could probably tap out with one of training, and would absolutely killed in a street fight. Some people just suck, or don't try hard enough...his is a combination of the 2. Maybe you're good, and they're average? Either way I don't care to defend TKD or Japanese JuJitsu, you couldn't pay me to train in them.

[8stepsifu]

9 months in the sifu program is like years of another style. It's around 5 hours a day and hellish.

Anyway the thai kick to a horse stance is a good idea except that your in a horse stance when your close to them. BTW we have a thai kick, In our system it's traditionally called a "mantis kick" know why???? Because we like it.

Better off doing BJJ and Thai? Tell me is that because those are the only styles that you have seen used effectively?

I'm sick of explaining my art. I know it works **** well and I've seen little guys that do it fight **** well. I know what it's done for me and I'm way better off than people of far more years and experience. When do you learn Iron Body and chi kung in BJJ/Thai? Go ahead and argue that chi kung isn't work doing for fighting, but then why did the ancient pancration fighters do it? BJJ/Thai is good no question, but don't think for a minute that 8 Step is less of an art, because it's a better and far more complete art than those two put together. Styles aside, Its still the person and not the style getting hit and fighting.


Thats why I'm getting my ass in shape to do some fighting

[nhbfighter_57069]

The person I studied here was BJJ and he was only here for two months when he left. He was not bad, but I tapped all his student the first night there. Joel Sutton was an alt. in both UFC's and won both his matchs. I think they show a short clip of it on one of the tapes. He also was in World Vale Tudo and Pancrase, not sure which one's though.

I did wrestle for six years and it is still an many componet of when I fight. But when I started Mantis I had NO stand-up skills. Because of that a lost a few matches. If people know you are going to shoot, it is very easy to defend. and BJJ in MMA/NHB and BJJ as a sport are night and day. To work for submissions when on you back in MMA/NHB is tough. You have to be prepared to take some punishment. I would have to say as a fighter I am 150% better now that I have started mantis. Ask 8 Step Sifu, he was the first person I sparred with when I started. To be honest I got killed on my feet. Now I have learned to puch and kick. Before I could punch like anyone else, but I have learned how to throw a punch. My kicks are so much better now. Learning how to pivot my foot and such have made them much more powerful and much quicker. If I want to take a fight to the ground I can set it up now, not just shoot. Our Low Manits Kick is the same as a thai leg kick. Through training I now throw one HEll! of a leg kick. Prob. my best strike. As for punching, boxing and mantis teach very similiar punches. There are only so many punchs and kick out there. Jab, cross, hook, uppercut are the four basic, anything else is mainly a differnet type of these. If I was to fight a pure boxer I would just leg kick him till he came close, as soon as he over extends (most cross punches do) then shoot or clinch. They do throw good punches on the inside, but knees and elbows are much more powerful. We have knees and elows just like thai fighting. The main differnece between mantis and other styles, even kung fu styles, is footwork and how you follow punches up. I train here with a guy the used to train with John Cronk. He was the Colorado State Thai Champ. His tech. is very similiar to mine.

We do pratice alot of our throws and grabbing tech. when a person does throw a certain punch. But hitting the heavy bag is not that differnt. People don't stand still to get hit (how I wish they did). That is why was have free sparring. Our sparring we wear a mouth piece, cup and NHB glove and go to town. The only way you improve is by trying new things. We don't try to KO each other, but hit hard enough so you know when you mess up. Our sparring is stand-up and ground work. Sometimes one or another, sometime both. You have to realize stances are not held in that postion. BJJ has a horse stance, they just don't tell you that, so does wrestling. Horse stand is the first step to taking a shot. Bending at the knees, not the waist, to change levels. You are just facing side ways, not forward. Pushing off the rear leg for power, either to shoot or punch.
I believe what 8 Step Sifu was trying to say was that we train in mantis because it is a complete style. Not the I know all of it. I may never. I know the BJJ people he is talking about, some of them trained to 2-3 years. And were not half bad. We beat them pretty easily. Maybe becasue we were in better shape (the matches rellly didn't take that long) have more heart or were just better fighters. I know we really kick Matt's ass (8StepSifu, he is still ****ed about that). I have to admit I never could beat the instructor. But if we had included striking you never know. Boxing/Muay Thai/Brazillian Jui-Jitsu do have something mantis does not. I still can't really do a collar choke for sh!t. As for thai and boxing, I have never studied them that close so I can't say what they have that we don't. But mantis has things that they don't. We feel that what we learn maked us better fighters. To be honest TKD could be used in the ring, if trained the old way, not this point style stuff. 8StepSifu hit right, it is a person that makes a fighter, not a style. 8StepSifu is a skilled fighter, not a someone who wants to be.

I am not trying to convince you to take 8 Step Praying Mantis. But I believe you have closed yourself to that option. Go to a few differnt places as see what suits you best. If you like BJJ more the Muay Thai, go with it. But leave youself open to all styles till you find on you like. We have an are just trying to inform you of why we like it. I believe that alot of it has to do with you instructors. I and 8StepSifu have been blessed with a great teacher. He knows his stuff and knows how to teach it. You could take any style and fing the person with the mosr knowledge, but if they don't know how to pass that knowledge on, you wont learn.
Wow, didn't realize this was going to be this long. I hope it helped clear a few thing up for you. I am stating all this to be helpful, not an a$. Hey, 8StepSifu, shoot me an email.

[This message was edited by nhbfighter_57069 on 02-23-01 at 01:12 AM.]

[robertwilliam]

You little *****, you're backing out - don't worry, no police involved - I fight you at 6am in my back yard with my bathrobe on, holding a cup of coffee.Please *****, your going to rip my eyes out? You're the man on realisim and what works and doesn't with your vast wealth of knowlege on fighting. I would fuc# you up, and you know it - I wouldn't even strike you - I would out wrestle you.E-mail me *****.

[Whambo]

NHB fighter, you said the BJJ instructor was there for 2 months, so wouldn't that mean his students were training for only 2 months? :)

I'll look out for Joel, but i'm guessing since he hasn't been in the UFC since he hasn't had as much success as he'd hope. I don't think you could ignore the success people crosstraining in boxing tho, why do you think most guys crosstrain in it? I'm just surprised that with being a fighter, you haven't really experimented with the boxing arts. A LOT of guys saying when they switch from a kung fu art they improve a ton when making the switch to boxing.

About those BJJ guys you beat, i'm unclear, beat them at what? A submission match? That's fishy.. I'd go to a Mantis school to watch...there ain't one in my area tho. And you're sure they're BJJ not JJJ? And is there a very good website on Mantis you'd recommend?

And 8step

"Better off doing BJJ and Thai? Tell me is that because those are the only styles that you have seen used effectively?"

I've heard stories from Wing Chun guys saying how they outgrappled state wrestling champions, at some point you have to say to yourself am I really getting the full story to some of these claims. Every art's practitioners will have a story on why their art is better, and how they beat such and such. You know it is true, it isn't just the art it's the fighter. When I trained Hapkido briefly I played aroung with the master's nephew who was a green belt. Well just let me say that guy was well beyond the other green belts, so if he kicked the crap out of a Karate black belt I wouldn't be surprised at all. Someone might twist that into a story on how Karate is inferior to Hapkido, and from there a story is born... So you've really got to go with what you've seen for yourself. It's cool NHBfighter fights, but there's one thing, I don't think he's a full time fighter. Someone like Tito Ortiz lives off his fights, he doesn't have time to dick around with inferior styles, and for stand up he chose boxing. Every single pro fighter in the top 10 has chosen a boxing art instead of Mantis. I think that says a lot.


I think it's cool that you guys like your Mantis, I'm sure if you're doing a sifu program of 5 hours a day you're gonna get good no doubt about it... I think you're way off saying it's better than BJJ/Thai tho, way off....I'll take Bas Rutten over any Mantis fighter in the world thank you.

and haha Robert, now you've got me under the impression you're insane. You're obviously baiting me there for a reason, and i'm not going to take the risk of getting shot on your property. Even if I was a blackbelt BJJ master I wouldn't fight you at your house, get realistic. For all you know I could be a 250lbs of pure muscle, then what would you do? You'd hide and call the cops just like you would do once you understood i'm actually pretty good and you're likely to have your arm broken.

[robertwilliam]

You are right about the insane part.
It would actually be better if you were 250lbs, or 300 for that matter - how stupid, MA's should have nothing to do with size - why don't you take a look at your hero Gracie? My origional reply was that you should stick with one style - and then, you start to pummel Mantis style fighting for what reason , I have no idea.I would be surprised by any technique you be able pull off, let alone having my arm in posesion long enough to break it. I would strongly advise you to not under - estimate anyone, you don't know who I am, or anyone else on this site for that matter.And you go on about shi* you don't know about.I have a friend that did just that - he was a bouncer here in Buffalo, and he was used to pounding on people.One night, some old 50 year old drunken geezer grabbed his arm - and before he knew what happened, cut his face open 6 inches to the facial bones, and then stabbed him in the guts - with a broken beer bottle.He was in the hospital for a week.What I'm saying is the ring is not the street.So put your magazines,and DVDs down and really think why the ancients created MA.

[Whambo]

Robert, you're such a hypocrite it isn't even funny. Furthermore your lack of knowledge is stunning for someone who studies martial arts. I'll break this up, point by point....

First off, yes size does matter. The reason why Royce was able to beat people so much bigger than him was because he had twice the skill at least over the others, particularily in ground fighting. Someone like Tank Abbott would have probably killed Royce, he's just too big. Royler Gracie is better at GJJ than Royce is, and was defeated by Sakuraba in around 15 minutes. It took Sak 90 minutes to beat Royce tho. The difference is Royce has about 30lbs on Royler. Also please don't use GJJ as a reason why being small doesn't matter. GJJ is based on that, that technique should overcome. Helio was smart realizing there's nothing in the world Royce could do to prevent someone like Dan Severn from taking him down, it's why the guard is emphasized so much. But guess what smartass, BJJ competitions have weight divisions, if Royce was in the ring with a 220lb BJJ BB then things would have been different for Royce. That's such a ignorant statement, you have no knowledge of martial arts obviously. When I first started Hapkido my instructor told me to put on weight, because he'd crack my rib with one punch. He was right... and if Royce fought a slugger like Tank who can Bench 600lbs, Royce has a very real possibility of being killed by a head shot. I'm sure NHBfighter is laughing at that rediculous statement you just made.

And your bull**** about me watching my mouth about what I say to people on here cause I don't know who they are is hilarious! I wasn't bad mouthing anyone but you cause you started that bull****. You were the one trying to set up a fight, not me. Try following your own advice. Your example of your friend is just another reason why you shouldn't get in street fights, yet lookie lookie, it's exactly what you're trying to do with me. The ring isn't the street, because on the street if my life is threatened i'm going to bite, claw, eye gouge, and I won't stop if you're taping. Often it can be who's the dirtiest fighter, and who's willing to go the furthest that wins the fight. You can be the greatest Mantis fighter in the world, but that doesn't stop me from reaching into my pocket and grabbing a gun and killing you now does it? If you want to risk that bull**** then that's your choice, I like fights in the ring, where it's skill that wins the fight. I train self defence for the street, but it's something I avoid.

[loki]

This has gotten boring really fast! It makes no sense going back and forth like this since it's never going to solve anything. Everyone is going to see things their own way and believe what they want to believe based on their own personal experiences. Do what works for you and don't worry about what others think about it.

Whambo by your own admission it seems to me that you have no real first hand knowledge about the mantis system other than what you may have seen in magazines or videos so I think it is unfair for you to pass a negative judgement on it just because you have never seen it in a mma's event. Isn't that being a bit closed minded. There are hundreds , if not thousands of martial arts around the world . What we have seen in these mixed fights events is but a very small percentage of what is out there. Shall we discount all those fighting systems simply because they have not been used in the ring? I would hope not because I know that there is some great stuff out there that none of us has ever seen and may never see for that matter. Respect all styles, they all have something to offer. If you don't think a technique is effective , or even an entire system, my question to you is did you come to that conclusion by actually researching the system ? Did you speak with representatives of the system? Did you fight any of them ? Did you attempt to learn the system? I mean, there's a lot of questions that must be answered before you can honestly say something is plain useless. There's a saying that says "Those who think they know it all know all they will ever know". Sheesh! and they say we traditionalists are closed minded! ;)

Peace.

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[robertwilliam]

I suppose loki is right is this being a pointless contest - It is getting boring - just like most of the UFC fights, and having to watch two men laying on the floor for 45 minutes not doing anything.Size does not mean alot - how tenacious the opponent is what matters.I started the whole BS with you because of your ingnorance of anything that isn't within your mental grasp or your little fishbowl that you live in.Once again (for the 3rd or 4th time now) I have no problems with people that train in different styles - my opinion was that you should stay with one for a long enough time that you can realize what one can do with the art.Mantis is a complete fighting system that does not need any suplimentation.If you've seen any bad mantis fighters, it is probally because they haven't learned enough of it, they don't know how to apply it correctly, or they are not agressive people.I have no problems with BJJ, or any of the ground fighting arts either - just punks like yourself that want to badmouth things for no good reason.Everybody including myself has basicly said "whambo doesn't know what he is talking about" -so, drop it.Another thing, you seem to be forever pointing out fight #43 of the blah, blah, blah, and "he took out this guy in blah,blah seconds -what have you done? I have a feeling that your "ring" experience consists only in your mind, or out in your buddies garage with with rape prevention training suits on.You got the whole thing wrong - it's all about additude, it's all about intent.You declined my street fight offer because you are afraid that you might get some broken glass embedded in your skin,broken nose,have no protection, no ref to blow the whistle, no ropes or netting to bounce off of.Basicly you would be out of your environment.To me, anything that is not street fighting is rigged a bit, you feel otherwise though, and that's your opinion.What would have happend if Tyson was allowed to pull a Hannibal on Holyfield's other ear?What about the boxers (or toughman contestants) that slip in the ring - and then the ref stops it, and starts it up again - I wonder what would happen? You can wonder about things all day - the only way to prove a systems validity is on the street.

[Hieu Nguyen]

So what if a person were to train in tai mantis and seven star?
Because my instructors teach only 1 a week would cross training within the mantis family be alright?????

[robertwilliam]

I don't think it's wise to cross-train styles of kung fu - applications and application of power are different, philosiphy, essence are different.
Maybe crosstrain with weights, or run.
I think you really need to be at a master level at one style before you add "a little of this and a little of this" together.

[diego]

Hi im 23,study kajukenbo/hopga for the last 8yrsz.
ka/karate-ju/jujitsu-ken/kempo-bo/chinese boxing:
founded in 1949 hawaii palama district?....
Five masters got together made a pact-formed the black belt society went on welfare for two yrsz hid out in abandoned buildings and tested all thier trix--boom kajukenbo was formed....now the system is a framework of streetfighting techniques built for the average american football player or shipman.
there is about 5 styles biult on the original framework,such as wun hop kuen do!dacascos branch kajukenbo..etc.

Now what my mothers exboyfriend showed me is kajukenbo with a blend of hop gar and i think seven star mantis....my teachers teacher was killed in a nightclub....he had an illustrious lineage but his system was secret OR UNDAGROUND??..

so i was taught a bit of this and that;thru application and basic karate ma terminology.

i have all this home video and text
now i am trying to figure out all the detials.

Thankfully through this forum i found a senior in my style.


i am seeking any info from wherever pertianing to my style bieng tha best 8)))))

for real i almost **** my pants when you wrote you study hung ga and 7*mantis
basically i do what you do."""i read somewhere wong fie hung gave hopga the tiger claws and wong yan lam the hop ga master gave the long fists to hung ga-dont know if true but the link and similaritys between the two/just with chosen hand techniques........VERY SIMILAR.

I dont know how much buddy learnt however supposedly he was a pretty bad dude...I KNOW HE LEARNT MANTIS FROM A W.C.WONG IN SAN FRANSISCO
AND HOP GA FROM NG-YIM-MING
KAJUKENBO FROM THE MAIN FOUNDER ADRIANO D.EMPERADO....I AM REALLY SEEKING INFO ON MANTIS...


IF YOU COULD GIVE ME SOME INSIGHT IN HOW YOUR SCHOOL AND SIFU BRIDGE APPLICATION OF THE MANTIS&HUNG................simplee marvalous


RESPECTSZ

:cool:

[robertwilliam]

Do what you feel comfortable with.I think the best way to test your skills is as one of Bruce Lee's teachers (specificaly Yip Man) supposedly suggested - get into street fights.
One thing though - I didn't say that I blended Hung Ga and Mantis, I just said I trained in both - I have wrestled in HS,and did some TKD.Since most street fights end up on the ground or in a clinch, the most useful thing to me is wrestling.It's not like I would say "OK I'm in striking range so I'll use a redirect and punch and now I'm grappling so I'll perform a half nelson..." I dunno, I guess it all blends together.Just realize that everybody is different.A punch that connects well is still a punch if it's from a boxer,street fighter, mantis, well you get the idea.My Sifu(EARTHDRAGON) is who you want to direct 8 step mantis questions to anyway and Sifu Albright for the 7 * questions.I prefer to use my stepping skills nowadays to avoid people pounding each other whithout spilling a drop of my long island ice tea!

[diego]

one would definatly need the experiance in repitition and in application of two systems
to formulate thier own...

there is a technique in kajukenbo/hopga:

agianst r punch
shuffle to left side,rightparry at wrist & and left sunfist to rtemple;all done simultaneuosly in a heel adduction stance""thats the mantis""
then the left fist hand does like a big huen sao circleinhand like wc wipe the arm away shuffle in in a side bowstance back heel down or up crouched or stretchd posture depending on intent--throw a r striaght to solar to knock out""thats the hopga""

now i was taught things like sowchoy with the terms of inverted backfist.......So i am trying to get as many email adresses to help me in my studies....i guess what i wanted to know besides just trying to get some penpals
is the guy who made kajukenbo/hopga a reqiurement for black belt 5th degree in kajukenbo is i am pretty sure you have to take all the fundamentals of kajukenbo and with whatever your best trix from other methods you form your style from the system groundwork...NOT TO SURE but its something like that........

so basically i am in the process of trying to figure out the jings within this style i recieved... and to answer my own question unless your sifu who taught you mantis&hungga has his own private drills of application between the two respective arts and he wiats until both are steadily grasped......so the answer to my not to clear inqiury is in a scrap the strategies would just come out.........you guys dont blend just study simultaenously it would be cool if you could maybe take the time, and give a little discription, from your own practise! of the strategies coming together as one in say sparring.maybe an anecdote of strengths??..I am only asking for my inspiration towards my respective studies..no actual techniques just thoerys.......kindah like you could do a twist step elbow break with a upward elbow below opps then unwind into a horse and slam a tiger claw to his solar..........ITS A PRETTY VAGUE QUESTION
ANY STORYS OR ANY THING WOULD BE GREAT((whiteboy accent added""peace

ohya is sifu albright online is that your sifu who teaches hungga aswell.......have you heard of w.c.wong sifu i thought i knew the name then i saw hungga sifu y.c.wong but wc still seems familiar???????????.