Wing Chun and The root

[Yoshiyahu]

I hear alot talk about other arts on WC forums boards. But I wanted to start a non-confrontational thread for all WC practioners who study wing chun.

My Question is concerning a root. In many arts one must have strong root to develop and emit proper power from ground up. I was woundering if you Sifu has also shared with you about the root found in WC. Do you practice training your root? or do you think having a root is useless in an actual fight?

Whats your opinion?

[scottking]

Its not even a question, without root there is no wing chun.

[SimonM]

If people intend to fight like trees I'll just bring my axe. :p


Seriously sacrificing mobility is suicidal in a close-range striking system.

As a result "rooting" should never involve actually fixing yourself in place. Only generating whole body power within a dynamic setting.

[scottking]

seriously sacrificing root at close range is suicidal, close range gives you less time or room to move so the more you need your body and the root from the ground to give you power, also you can be mobile and still have root, you only need it when hitting or being hit, and if you think your not going to get hit at close range you are mistaken.

[Hendrik]

Root is an analogy to help junior to understand dynamic holistic power generation that firmly supported. It was carried out of proportion and become totally misleading.


Root, there is no root in advance TCMA.

as it said in the ancient scripture, Yong Chuan (the kidney point 1 part of the feet) is not root. Waist is not the master, the spine similar to willow with thousand flexible sections, a single hand spread out it becomes a thousand hand.



The issue of today's WCK is people keep defining "THIER" practice as WCK. Which is most of the time distorted big time.

and the saga continous until everyone is tired to use the name WCK because WCK no longer means a thing but empty words.





BTW:

What is "strong root to develop and emit proper power from ground up?" Fantasy?

[scottking]

Hendrik i've been looking on this forum for a long time and never realy posted, but its clear you know what your talking about, so this is just my opinion and i am open to critisism, but from my experience so far, to give a powerfull strike at close range, you must sink your body the power then comes from the heels to the k1 point up through the legs out of the hipps, through the elbow and out of the fist, exploding on inpact. If you dont sink your weight then you are top heavy and the power wont be as strong.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik i've been looking on this forum for a long time and never realy posted, but its clear you know what your talking about, so this is just my opinion and i am open to critisism,


but from my experience so far, to give a powerfull strike at close range,
you must sink your body the power then comes from the heels to the k1 point up through the legs out of the hipps, through the elbow and out of the fist, exploding on inpact. If you dont sink your weight then you are top heavy and the power wont be as strong.


Yup, it is about sinking as needed.

in the begining, K1 point is indeed use, however , later if K1 point becomes a must it can becomes a hinderance. The reason is , thus I have heard, after the 8 special medirians open up, it becomes a bouncing or swinging or springing of the 8 speical medirians group at will spontaneously no preparation. K1 sometimes is used sometimes not, depend on which special medirians is activate. that is the state of using Yee/will to lead Qi using Qi to transport the physical body. or Comes accept, Goes let it go back..... using silence to lead action. ( see. there is no saying on rooting at all here, but flow. if one pin the structure, then is no longer flow). Thus, I have heard.

Saying that, that also become the case as the ancient writing above, Waist is not the master. Another words, the waist area no longer the master, but one will it it goes with the waist area become a support instead of a master.


Most of us, never get to this level thus, the K1 and Hip stuffs mostly works in the static but not in high speed high agile dynamic motion.

The High Speed High agile dynamic motion is what the SLT/SNT training shooting for.
But because most or all of us today doesnt activate/open the 8 special medirians, the YJKYM becomes useless for most, and that lead to certain WCner using big hip movement or hungar or shao lin or CLF or White Crane way to power the motion.

it is a fact that the prerequisite of to be internal means open/activate the 8 special medirians.



A few months ago, I wrote a comment in this forum on some European youtube presentation posting their very shao lin motion way of body/ hip move is the " truth "solution for SLT/SNT or WCK training.

Well, it is not. They opps they dont know WCK enough to that speculating. They dont know he 8 Special medirians activation of slt. Thier art is not WCK which based on SLT/SNT.

So, if the YJKYM not working, the best substitude is using the White Crane SanChin and default the art back to one of its mother art, White Crane. Using the White Crane platform will make the SLT/SNT solid. however, Using the Shao LIn/HUng Gar will not. because the Shao Lin/Hung gar type of platform doesnt support the hand technics in WCK well. Those are different platform for different type of power generation. And there are different ways of using hip.....





Thus, I have heard.

[scottking]

Hendrik, that is way too deep for me, im going bed now, we will continue this discution tomorrow, goodnight.

[Hendrik]

it is too deep for me too. i post this just to shared there are other stuffs going on.

the rest, i dont know. it is just thus, i have heard on WCK.

sweet dream.

[Hardwork108]

Yup, it is about sinking as needed.

in the begining, K1 point is indeed use, however , later if K1 point becomes a must it can becomes a hinderance. The reason is , thus I have heard, after the 8 special medirians open up, it becomes a bouncing or swinging or springing of the 8 speical medirians group at will spontaneously no preparation. K1 sometimes is used sometimes not, depend on which special medirians is activate. that is the state of using Yee/will to lead Qi using Qi to transport the physical body. or Comes accept, Goes let it go back..... using silence to lead action. ( see. there is no saying on rooting at all here, but flow. if one pin the structure, then is no longer flow). Thus, I have heard.

Saying that, that also become the case as the ancient writing above, Waist is not the master. Another words, the waist area no longer the master, but one will it it goes with the waist area become a support instead of a master.


Most of us, never get to this level thus, the K1 and Hip stuffs mostly works in the static but not in high speed high agile dynamic motion.

The High Speed High agile dynamic motion is what the SLT/SNT training shooting for.
But because most or all of us today doesnt activate/open the 8 special medirians, the YJKYM becomes useless for most, and that lead to certain WCner using big hip movement or hungar or shao lin or CLF or White Crane way to power the motion.

it is a fact that the prerequisite of to be internal means open/activate the 8 special medirians.



A few months ago, I wrote a comment in this forum on some European youtube presentation posting their very shao lin motion way of body/ hip move is the " truth "solution for SLT/SNT or WCK training.

Well, it is not. They opps they dont know WCK enough to that speculating. They dont know he 8 Special medirians activation of slt. Thier art is not WCK which based on SLT/SNT.

So, if the YJKYM not working, the best substitude is using the White Crane SanChin and default the art back to one of its mother art, White Crane. Using the White Crane platform will make the SLT/SNT solid. however, Using the Shao LIn/HUng Gar will not. because the Shao Lin/Hung gar type of platform doesnt support the hand technics in WCK well. Those are different platform for different type of power generation. And there are different ways of using hip.....





Thus, I have heard.

Thank you for that post. I found it very interesting and enlightening. I wish that we had more people like you here in the forum posting.

[Yoshiyahu]

Your post are awesome.


You sound like you have a great Sifu who has shared some special truths with you.


But as for WC. WC has many facets with in a fight
1.Root
2.Flow
3.Hard Power
4.Soft Force
5.Agility
6.Solidness
7.Center Line
8.Four Gates
9.High
10.Low



There are many facets that are used when fighting with WC. Sometimes straight lines sometimes ciricles. But always at most advantageous times.


seriously sacrificing root at close range is suicidal, close range gives you less time or room to move so the more you need your body and the root from the ground to give you power, also you can be mobile and still have root, you only need it when hitting or being hit, and if you think your not going to get hit at close range you are mistaken.


Hendrik i've been looking on this forum for a long time and never realy posted, but its clear you know what your talking about, so this is just my opinion and i am open to critisism, but from my experience so far, to give a powerfull strike at close range, you must sink your body the power then comes from the heels to the k1 point up through the legs out of the hipps, through the elbow and out of the fist, exploding on inpact. If you dont sink your weight then you are top heavy and the power wont be as strong.

[AdrianK]

But I wanted to start a non-confrontational thread for all WC practioners who study wing chun.

Non-confrontation discussions are just big circle jerks.

Oh, you do it that way? thats okay... I do it this way. yay we're both right. Lets jerk each other off til the sun goes down.

Interestingly enough, its a lot like aikido :p


As for the actual question...

In many arts one must have strong root to develop and emit proper power from ground up

Its one way of generating power. Its not necessarily the best, or entirely necessary, though it is extremely useful, and on top of that its just a good way.



Do you practice training your root?

Absolutely.



or do you think having a root is useless in an actual fight?

Everyone has a root in some way or another. A root is a connection to the ground. If you mean do you think having a strong root is useless... absolutely not. Countless systems, including boxing, utilize your root in one way or another. Look at Mike Tyson in his prime, all that power came from the ground.


It is however, counter-productive to box root into a single idea... as in.. you always need to have a strong connection to the ground.. Its a variable concept like anything else. Variable percentages of root based on what is needed.

[Yoshiyahu]

Non-confrontation discussions are just big circle jerks.

Oh, you do it that way? thats okay... I do it this way. yay we're both right. Lets jerk each other off til the sun goes down.

Interestingly enough, its a lot like aikido :p

Is that slight at Aikido...My old Aikido master might not like that?

[Genetic]

Your post are awesome.


You sound like you have a great Sifu who has shared some special truths with you.


But as for WC. WC has many facets with in a fight
1.Root
2.Flow
3.Hard Power
4.Soft Force
5.Agility
6.Solidness
7.Center Line
8.Four Gates
9.High
10.Low



There are many facets that are used when fighting with WC. Sometimes straight lines sometimes ciricles. But always at most advantageous times.


And then there are lists. Sometimes useful, possibly in say academic study, or when shopping. But as to the use of the above list in a fight, you have got me there...

[Genetic]

Is that slight at Aikido...My old Aikido master might not like that?

Is your Aikido master old in years or old in that you have not had any use for him in some time? Or both?

[Yoshiyahu]

Is your Aikido master old in years or old in that you have not had any use for him in some time? Or both?

Both actually

When I found out about Wing Chun and Chinese Martial Arts I left Aikido and Judo alone. But I saw a week ago at a family function. He is good friends with one of my uncle. But the guy is old...

[Mr Punch]

LOL, well put about the list Generic.

FWIW, here's my opnion:

If you can root on the instant of the punch landing you can dance ballet on the way for all I care.

If you can turn your root on/off as quickly as you can relax your da ready to strike again after impact, that's what you need.

If you can forget about K1, and root from any part of your foot, or even if unbalanced use your opponent's structure to root your own with, then you're talking really useful.

[SimonM]

Is that slight at Aikido...My old Aikido master might not like that?

Aikido is a perfect example of what happens when an old soldier weary of war embraces zen buddhism and tries to turn a trust building exercise into something resembling a martial art.

In other words: not-for-fighting.

As for root...

I think my problem is mainly with the term. All too often I've seen people who glue themselves to the floor because they think they are generating a good root.

YES your whole body generates power.
YES said power depends on the foot - ground connection.
YES sinking into a strike (or for that matter into a clinch) is useful.

BUT DON'T EFFING FIGHT LIKE A TREE!!!!

[t_niehoff]

Non-confrontation discussions are just big circle jerks.

Oh, you do it that way? thats okay... I do it this way. yay we're both right. Lets jerk each other off til the sun goes down.


For the most part, I agree. I'd amend that to say that any theoretical discussion of how things should work is essentially a circle jerk, and that's because concepts are for the most part, a circle jerk. See below.



As for the actual question...

Everyone has a root in some way or another. A root is a connection to the ground. If you mean do you think having a strong root is useless... absolutely not. Countless systems, including boxing, utilize your root in one way or another. Look at Mike Tyson in his prime, all that power came from the ground.

It is however, counter-productive to box root into a single idea... as in.. you always need to have a strong connection to the ground.. Its a variable concept like anything else. Variable percentages of root based on what is needed.

My view is that most of these TCMA "concepts", like root and rooting, are in fact counter-productive to our development. They are vague, poetic terms that intellectualize what is essentially a nonintellecutal activity. People then take thaat concept, impose their own (or their sifu's) defintionfor it, and then use that defintion as authority for how things should be done (spot the circular reasoning?). They then take these preconeptions of the "right" way to do WCK, focus their attention to them, and do everything they can do to follow them, not realizing that by intellectualizing the process they are stifling their awareness of what is really going on (in the activity, with their own bodies, etc.).

When we learn by following concepts (which are ideas), we then judge our performance on the basis of how closely that performance conforms to our idealized "right way". The conceptualized action is not "good" because it feels right and works but only because it conforms to our preconceived standard (that we imposed in the first place). Moreover, when we allow a concept to guide our experience, we perform by rote and our actions become mechanical and unnatural. Our learning is impeded because we are led by ideas instead of experience.

Using your example of Tyson, he didn't develop with the help of concepts like "root" but from performance, from DOING IT (from experience) -- which is how all good athletes develop. By actually hitting things and letting his body give him the feedback of what worked best for him, he found his power.

[Mr Punch]

Aikido is a perfect example of what happens when an old soldier weary of war embraces zen buddhism and tries to turn a trust building exercise into something resembling a martial art.

In other words: not-for-fighting.Er, completely inaccurate. He defined aikido in 1924, and used it in fighting in wartime. And he embraced a shinto cult: nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. I'm not going to argue about the lack of efficacy in modern times though: but most of that comes from people copying what he did when he was already past it and nuts.

Back to root: T has nailed it. IMO you learn more about root by hitting things (pref ones that are moving and trying to hit you back) than by doing SLT, or talking about K1. The structure is given to you in the forms, but you can only develop it by feedback from hitting things.

[Phil Redmond]

Er, completely inaccurate. He defined aikido in 1924, and used it in fighting in wartime. And he embraced a shinto cult: nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. I'm not going to argue about the lack of efficacy in modern times though: but most of that comes from people copying what he did when he was already past it and nuts . . .
The term Aikido was first used in 1942. Shintoism and Buddhism are intertwined in Japanese culture so you're both right. I also agree with the old soldier statement made by SimonM. O'Sensei abandoned some of the fighting aspects of Daito - Ryu Aikijujutsu when he got spiritual.

[Hendrik]

But as for WC. WC has many facets with in a fight
1.Root
2.Flow
3.Hard Power
4.Soft Force
5.Agility
6.Solidness
7.Center Line
8.Four Gates
9.High
10.Low



There are many facets that are used when fighting with WC. Sometimes straight lines sometimes ciricles. But always at most advantageous times.


Could these stuffs work? have you do it in say something like Kyokushin tournoment...etc?

From my limited experience.
IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO

1, having these stuff running in one's mind guarentee to confuse one and lost touch with reality.

2, be serious, any one have time to think about this while in action?


This is where one trap into one's own mind and lost touch with reality.

[SimonM]

Er, completely inaccurate. He defined aikido in 1924, and used it in fighting in wartime. And he embraced a shinto cult: nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. I'm not going to argue about the lack of efficacy in modern times though: but most of that comes from people copying what he did when he was already past it and nuts.



Perhaps I read inaccurate books on the subject. I believe the one I was drawing what I posted from was called "O Sensei" - and I read it about a decade ago.

Between the distance of time and the possibility of inaccuracy in what I was reading to begin with I will concede the point.

[AdrianK]

My view is that most of these TCMA "concepts", like root and rooting, are in fact counter-productive to our development. They are vague, poetic terms that intellectualize what is essentially a nonintellecutal activity. People then take thaat concept, impose their own (or their sifu's) defintionfor it, and then use that defintion as authority for how things should be done (spot the circular reasoning?). They then take these preconeptions of the "right" way to do WCK, focus their attention to them, and do everything they can do to follow them, not realizing that by intellectualizing the process they are stifling their awareness of what is really going on (in the activity, with their own bodies, etc.).

Wow, for the most part I couldn't agree more. Bravo.

[Hendrik]

My view is that most of these TCMA "concepts", like root and rooting, are in fact counter-productive to our development. They are vague, poetic terms that intellectualize what is essentially a nonintellecutal activity. People then take thaat concept, impose their own (or their sifu's) defintionfor it, and then use that defintion as authority for how things should be done (spot the circular reasoning?).

They then take these preconeptions of the "right" way to do WCK, focus their attention to them, and do everything they can do to follow them, not realizing that by intellectualizing the process they are stifling their awareness of what is really going on (in the activity, with their own bodies, etc.).


Wow, for the most part I couldn't agree more. Bravo.




When someone mistaken finger as moon, one starts to blame the finger and the person who is pointing at the moon; not realized they themselve have never seen the moon.

Usual practice.

[Yoshiyahu]

You make a good point. Let apply a similar list.

Actions use in fighting
1.Front Step
2.Back Step
3.Stillness
4.Movement
5.Softness
6.Power
7.Strong Root and Solid Foundation
8.Light Skills and Agility
9.Punching
10.Kicking


In an actual fight you have no time to think about what your going to do. You just do it naturally. Or instinctively. Meaning there is time to stand and pivot the body while other times you can simply side step or step backwards. This is not something you think of in a fight. For instance I don't ever say in my head oh, my opponent is about to throw a right a jab. So I need to bil Sau then run in chain punch. Oh my opponent step backwards do I move forward or sideways? Oh my opponent is quick with hands do I trap or kick? Do I use power or softness. Do I use skill in movement or skill in root? What is the purpose of what I am doing?

The key in my humble opinion is diffreniated training. You must train strength,speed,power,agility,timing,root,chi,fajin ,light skills,kicking,punching,feeling,deflecting,interce pting,feinting,footwork etc.

But in actual fight you do not have time to meditate on this. Thats why practicing is so important along with Chi Sau and Sparring. With these three intermediataries. One can develop skill and ability in many different areas.

I just really started asking about Root. Because for a long time I have neglected my root in certain areas. There is root in more than just Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. We can work root on traditional horse stance too which is used in pole form. Also forward advancing stance and even hanging horse. But in my meager opinion what is the root doing to benefit you?

1.Sitting in root you are strengthing your legs(Its nothing wrong with definition).
2.Also practicing the Root develops Chi.
3.Practicing root helps develop your structure more.
4.Practicing root gives you options when on in the side.
5.A strong root makes it easier for you deflect certain attacks.
6.A strong root may be use to uproot your opponent.
7.A strong root in motion can used with your strikes.

Personally I don't see having a root as merely standing in one place. You practice building your root standing in one place. One Yip man school I went too was very practical concerning the root. They practice standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. The instructor tries to push you backwards using on hand at first. Then later he can use both hands. Also I saw another person elsewhere discussing developing a root by holding a kick pad. An be able to repel a strong kicker. Also this allows the kicker to develop stronger kicks because of the resistance he receives. In addition to him kicking a tree,heavy bag and some times walls.

But ne way very interesting your difference of opinions. Do any of you guys practice your root as well?


Could these stuffs work? have you do it in say something like Kyokushin tournoment...etc?

From my limited experience.
IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO

1, having these stuff running in one's mind guarentee to confuse one and lost touch with reality.

2, be serious, any one have time to think about this while in action?


This is where one trap into one's own mind and lost touch with reality.

[anerlich]

With regard to Aikido, I recommend the book "Angry White Pyjamas" by Robert Twigger, about his experiences training Aikido with the Tokyo Riot Police. The Aikido practiced there was not for granola eaters and tree huggers. It's a good book on its own, funny in parts, worth reading whatever your opinion of Aikido.

AS an Aussie, I hesitate to use the term "root" because of other derisive connotations, but IMO the best way to develop effective body alignment and coordination, active balance under pressure and effective control of one's structure while dealing with incoming force, with immediate feedback, is to practice dynamic standup wrestling drills.

[Hendrik]

Actions use in fighting
1.Front Step
2.Back Step
3.Stillness
4.Movement
5.Softness
6.Power
7.Strong Root and Solid Foundation
8.Light Skills and Agility
9.Punching
10.Kicking -------


IMHO

Again, this is a laundry list with general name but no meaning. It is empty.


IE: FRont step, what are you going to do? how? is it a transition or is it a direct attack?...........

what is stillness? what is movement? what is softness? what is power?




In an actual fight you have no time to think about what your going to do. You just do it naturally. Or instinctively. ---------

What is nature?

For me, most people are REACT HABITUALLY but they have no clue, and that is not nature.




This is not something you think of in a fight. For instance I don't ever say in my head oh, my opponent is about to throw a right a jab. So I need to bil Sau then run in chain punch. Oh my opponent step backwards do I move forward or sideways? Oh my opponent is quick with hands do I trap or kick? Do I use power or softness. Do I use skill in movement or skill in root? What is the purpose of what I am doing? -----------


Ok. So what do you do?




The key in my humble opinion is diffreniated training. You must train strength,speed,power,agility,timing,root,chi,fajin ,light skills,kicking,punching,feeling,deflecting,interce pting,feinting,footwork etc. --------


AGain, here what the heck is Root? Chi? Fajing......etc. how are these concept which is not even clear defined applied in the action?

similar to if one doesnt even know where one is going, where is one end up?







But in actual fight you do not have time to meditate on this. Thats why practicing is so important along with Chi Sau and Sparring. With these three intermediataries. One can develop skill and ability in many different areas. -----------


Practice what?
isnt those type of practice similar to trying to step the same flowing water twice?






I just really started asking about Root. Because for a long time I have neglected my root in certain areas. There is root in more than just Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. -------




To be honest, I have never heard about Root in the ancient WCK script until I come to the USA .

Root in WCK YJKYM some one must be nuts to preach this concept and some one must be dumb to accept this concept.





We can work root on traditional horse stance too which is used in pole form. Also forward advancing stance and even hanging horse. But in my meager opinion what is the root doing to benefit you? ---------


Root keep appeal here, but what is root? what is it?




1.Sitting in root you are strengthing your legs(Its nothing wrong with definition). -----

are you trying to build your legs muscle? what is that got to do with mobility?




2.Also practicing the Root develops Chi. ------


How long have you practice it? and what Chi have you develop?



3.Practicing root helps develop your structure more. ----


Like a tree deep root into the ground and end up stuck there and end up over turn in the big storm?




4.Practicing root gives you options when on in the side. ------

What is inside? what is root got to do with inside?




5.A strong root makes it easier for you deflect certain attacks. ------

Can a tree move when it is hit by a truck?



6.A strong root may be use to uproot your opponent. -----

sure, see if you will uproot a gozilla.




7.A strong root in motion can used with your strikes. -------


Sure, most claim that in thier demo but always get hug and take down by the grapper.....etc



Personally I don't see having a root as merely standing in one place.
You practice building your root standing in one place. --------

Sure, but what is root means?


One school I went too was very practical concerning the root. They practice standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. The instructor tries to push you backwards using on hand at first. Then later he can use both hands. ---------


Can that stand the bear hug or lift ..... from a grapper? if not what is the point?




Also I saw another person elsewhere discussing developing a root by holding a kick pad. An be able to repel a strong kicker. Also this allows the kicker to develop stronger kicks because of the resistance he receives. In addition to him kicking a tree,heavy bag and some times walls. ------


Does the King of Kicking style, MT root at all?




But ne way very interesting your difference of opinions. Do any of you guys practice your root as well? ----------


Opinion is just a waste of time.


To be honest,

all these root stuffs is so distorted. It has lost the meaning of the TCMA training. It in fact has become a play with no meaning, a fancy believe which is not usefull.


Do I know what you try to say, yes. But what you try to describe is not what the Ancient TCMA teaches. and you stuck with something partial.

That is the sad part of WCK, at one hand, people has only partial or lost thier art, at the other hand there are people who attack TCMA without knowing what the heck is going on but based on the understanding of them which is totally partial.



Saying that, do I know it all? NOPE, but I do know, that is not what the ancient TCMA training about.


WCK kuen kuit said, " Comes accept, Goes let it return, set free and move forward, using silence to lead action."

There is no talking about ROOTING AT ALL. instead it strange? and why didnt the WCK people wake up and start pay attention to the old saying and examine if thier training can implement the Kuen KUit closer and closer? if it is not then one know, one is in a wrong direction.






Just some thoughts. Sorry for my straight forward.

[Yoshiyahu]

Many of your questions I have already stated. Some of your questions are more rethorical. But one stood out concerning the Kuit Kuen...what does the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit and sayings say about stillness and movement?

Also let me relate to certain questions:


In an actual fight you have no time to think about what your going to do. You just do it naturally. Or instinctively. ---------What is nature? For me, most people are REACT HABITUALLY but they have no clue, and that is not nature.

Habititually or Naturally. You have to make it habit. Thats were drilling comes in. Drill defense against round house kicks. Drill defense against fast jab.Drill defense against shoot. etc etc.


Better words for Naturally
Habitually
Practice
Spontaneous
Instinctively
Automatic Response

Also:
Natural Response due to habitual practice!


Stillness: Well redirecting force with out moving backwards or stepping to side.
Movement: Constant stepping


Ok. So what do you do?

I drill certain techniques so when sparring They can become reflex actions. In sparring I try to get live practice of defending against multiple vectors and ranges of attacks.



AGain, here what the heck is Root? Chi? Fajing

Root=solidness and strong structure implanted in the ground
Chi=enery
Fajin=explosive power

These are simple paraphrases of my opinion...it goes deeper but concerning the Root, Chi and Fajin you know what they mean?



How long have you practice it? and what Chi have you develop?

I have practice the root on and off for like 16 years..but recently been getting back into it from my recent neglection. I have been working on other elements of the WC primarily.


Can a tree move when it is hit by a truck?

Can tree move at all? No. Can a human move? yes? We are both pliable and immovable. Needless to say a 120lbs doesn't stand there when a 270lbs lionbacker is rushing towards him. WC is about turning off force right? Why use your root to take force greater than you?

Please read this article concerning Root!
http://www.mainewingchunkungfu.com/article1.htm

Fajin:

Stretching exercises improve both the flexibility and strength of the legs. Done correctly, these exercises develop the length and strength of the muscles, ligaments and tendons, packing chi energy into them, allowing the legs to store explosive "Far Jing" power within the joints and muscles. This enables the diligent practitioner to not only deliver devastatingly powerful kicks and punches from the base of a strong stance, but also acquire fast, explosive stepping and moving skills.

Root and Chi

The purpose of this standing posture is to build considerable endurance and strength in the leg muscles, and work the chi energy into the legs as the student learns to relax into the position of the Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma (charter two adduction stance), sinking his chi through his legs and into the ground. This stance further teaches the student good posture, body alignment and deepens the stance root, as it continues strengthening and toning important muscle groups. Together these qualities offer a solid base from which the techniques of Wing Chun can be unleashed with great power.




sure, see if you will uproot a gozilla.

I don't think Godzilla could be grappled or submitted either!


Sure, most claim that in thier demo but always get hug and take down by the grapper.....etc

I don't know anyone who can use their root to stop from being taken down. I know my root is not that strong. But if its possible I would like to try to take the guy down myself who has a strong root. To see if I can get him down. I can see a strong root stopping a sweep but not a dead lift or bear hug.

With a grappler you need strikes,skill and movement along with redirection of force. These are keys to advoiding a take down in my foolish opinion.

More concerning the root:

http://www.northeastwingchun.com/RWC_files/pages/readings/WCIntro_kjbc30Oct2001.htm


There are five key check points in the basic posture: sink in the stance, knees in, hips forward, head up, elbows in and down. Sinking of the stance lowers the center of gravity and helps to "root" and stabilize the practitioner. The "knees in" stance develops the legs for proper Wing Chun movement, and provides protection for the lower body.

I am surprise you never learn about Root in WC when in China. Perhaps maybe since you are Gwalo they choose not to share certain things with you. Well my Sifu taught me about root along other things. AS for all the info on Tao and other books I do not know about. I choose to mostly practice and learn by doing. I practice root when I am sitting down in my stance and sinking my body weight to ground. I also practice moving in and out of the root. As for inside fighting. A friend of mines is a bigger guy then me. So to withstand his forward pressure I have to root. Otherwise I will be flopping around like a rag doll. It allows me other options. Also you never know you may have to fight in hallway,back up against an alley wall,bathroom,stairway or elevator. Where you can only sink your stance because a whole lot moving is not an option.



Again, this is a laundry list with general name but no meaning. It is empty.

You seem like a knowledgeable guy. Do I have to explain the list is a compare and contrast of options one can use in a fight?

1.Tan Sau or Jum sau
2.Bong Sau or Bong Gerk
3.Bridging or not Bridiging
4.Pak Sau or Huen Sau
5.Light skills or Stance rooting
6.Footwork skills or Pivoting
7.Soft Power or Hard Power
8.Speed or Strength
9.Punches or Kicks
10.Arm breaks or Pressure point strikes

What you train the most will come out while fighting. But the key is to be well rounded in your WC?

[Phil Redmond]

...what does the Wing Chun Kuit Kuen and sayings say . .
I know you made a mistake and meant to write Kuen Kuit instead of Kuit Kuen.

[Hendrik]

The following are IMHHHHHO, if you dont like it ignore it.




But one stood out concerning the Kuit Kuen...what does the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit and sayings say about stillness and movement? --------


IMHO, one needs to have a strong foundation training to be able to know what is it. There is no stillness and movement, there is only flow.

As it said, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.

There is no mention of stillness and movement, there is only one thing --- FLOW.







Habititually or Naturally. ----HS

You have to make it habit. Thats were drilling comes in. Drill defense against round house kicks. Drill defense against fast jab.Drill defense against shoot. etc etc. -------

That is a kiss of death. make a habit until the habit running one un consciously. That is not Nature as what the TCMA or Lao TZu means when it said Dao is to follow Nature.








Better words for Naturally
Habitually
Practice
Spontaneous
Instinctively
Automatic Response

Also:
Natural Response due to habitual practice! ------


This all are man made stuffs. Good to think about but mostly have no clue what is what in action.

In the Chinese they call this, Discussing War Fare on paper. Meaning it is just empty words.

For example,
Habitual and Spontaneous are different thing. Can you differentiate that? can you body know what is habitual and what is spontaneous? What is a habitual Tan sau what is a Sponatneous Tan sau, there is big different.






Stillness: Well redirecting force with out moving backwards or stepping to side.
Movement: Constant stepping -----


To be real honest, what you describe is just mental speculation. No insult intended.

Your world is just a plain two directional world while in reality there are atleast 6 directional. with your awareness cannot know it, your body cant adapt to it.






I drill certain techniques so when sparring They can become reflex actions.----


That is not what the kuen kuit teaches, the Kuen kuit said Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.

Your training seem logical but it is setting your own boundary and limit. until somedays you are doom by your reflex action. Because you dont know silence means spontaneous no habitual reflex action.





In sparring I try to get live practice of defending against multiple vectors and ranges of attacks. ------


What is multiple vectors and ranges of attacks? those are show business. IMHO.

in real life, everything is multiple dimensional, every single move.

people often use multiple dimensional....etc that is just to point out the existance of multi-dimensional in every single move. there no need to create a multiple vectors....

again, in real life all the dimensional is just one flow. how to deal with the flow is the key, not to be bug down by those finger pointing at the moon.






Root=solidness and strong structure implanted in the ground -------



Those BJJ guys have root better then you.
because falling is nature ,
and your so called rooting is against nature.

Thus, you are against the law of nature. so, no matter what you do, your structure will not be able to sustain.

Look even sky scrapper fall. how strong can you structure?

again,

The WCK never said what you said above

It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.

So what do you do? WCK? not likely according the WCK Kuen Kuit.

Hey Sir AWAKE, WCK just said FLOW. Not standing there trying to resist anyone trying to take you down based on the law of gravity.







Chi=enery -----


Empty words.




Fajin=explosive power -----


Empty words like OPIUM with delude lots and lots of people.



These are simple paraphrases of my opinion...it goes deeper but concerning the Root, Chi and Fajin you know what they mean? ------


It is not about Know what they mean. it is about can one do it? Not words.






I have practice the root on and off for like 16 years..but recently been getting back into it from my recent neglection. I have been working on other elements of the WC primarily. -------


AS I said above, you can practice another 16 years and I guarentee you got take down.

Why? because you have a wrong concept which trying to go against the law of nature. and the WCK ancestor doesnt teach what you think is WCK.





Can tree move at all? No. Can a human move? yes? We are both pliable and immovable.-----

again all thinking.



Needless to say a 120lbs doesn't stand there when a 270lbs lionbacker is rushing towards him. -----


sure a a 120lbs doesn't stand there when a 270lbs lionbacker is rushing towards him, and in the law of nature it is not suppose to. So why do it?




WC is about turning off force right? Why use your root to take force greater than you? ------


What ROOT? What force?

What does the WCK kuen kuit said?

It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.





Please read this article concerning Root! ------
http://www.mainewingchunkungfu.com/article1.htm


Fajin:


Root and Chi




No insult intent but purely straight honest and technical.
That is not what the ancient WCK ancestors writting teaches.






I don't know anyone who can use their root to stop from being taken down. I know my root is not that strong. But if its possible I would like to try to take the guy down myself who has a strong root. To see if I can get him down. I can see a strong root stopping a sweep but not a dead lift or bear hug. ------


So what is the purpose of ROOT? why keep training in it where the Kuen Kuit doesnt endose it, where it can stop being taken down?

What is the point?



With a grappler you need strikes,skill and movement along with redirection of force. These are keys to advoiding a take down in my foolish opinion. -----



until falling is nature you have no chance. IMHO.

and if falling is nature why avoiding take down? Why resist it? what is bad to be take down?

and

What is the Kuen Kuit said?



It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.


These days people read but dont comprehend, isnt it?

Hello, anyone still do WCK?











More concerning the root:




I am surprise you never learn about Root in WC when in China. Perhaps maybe since you are Gwalo they choose not to share certain things with you. ----

or may be I cut through all the craps and directing into the core of the core?



I practice root when I am sitting down in my stance and sinking my body weight to ground. I also practice moving in and out of the root. --------


and what is the kuen kuit said? anything about ROOT?







As for inside fighting. A friend of mines is a bigger guy then me. So to withstand his forward pressure I have to root. Otherwise I will be flopping around like a rag doll. It allows me other options. Also you never know you may have to fight in hallway,back up against an alley wall,bathroom,stairway or elevator. Where you can only sink your stance because a whole lot moving is not an option. -----

again, what is the WCK kuen kuit says?




You seem like a knowledgeable guy. -----

I just grow older and become more foolish these days. saying things I am not suppose to said.





Do I have to explain the list is a compare and contrast of options one can use in a fight?

1.Tan Sau or Jum sau
2.Bong Sau or Bong Gerk
3.Bridging or not Bridiging
4.Pak Sau or Huen Sau
5.Light skills or Stance rooting
6.Footwork skills or Pivoting
7.Soft Power or Hard Power
8.Speed or Strength
9.Punches or Kicks
10.Arm breaks or Pressure point strikes




and WHAT is the Kuen Kuit said? why is the kuen kuit doesnt come with all kind of laundry list and figthing fighting? but accept and return and set free and silence? are you doing WCK?





What you train the most will come out while fighting. But the key is to be well rounded in your WC? --------


There is no well rounded in one's WC. there is only Let Go and Let God, according to the kuen kuit


It SAid, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.


Dont waste life, make good use of your life. fighting is not the default. living happily and peacefully is the default. Thus, they call it spring.


Just some thoughts

[Mr Punch]

The term Aikido was first used in 1942. Shintoism and Buddhism are intertwined in Japanese culture so you're both right. I also agree with the old soldier statement made by SimonM. O'Sensei abandoned some of the fighting aspects of Daito - Ryu Aikijujutsu when he got spiritual.Sorry Phil, I'm going to stand firm on this one: you are wrong, too. I'll take it here (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53567) to cut the noise on this thread.

[Yoshiyahu]

I know you made a mistake and meant to write Kuen Kuit instead of Kuit Kuen.

You are absolutely right...I agree...


http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#General_Sayings

Extreme softness enables one to be hard. Being extremely natural enables one to be agile.


Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.

No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare

Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.

Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

Sink your inner chi.

Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power.



http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Specific3

Yee Yao Jai Gong - (Use soft to overcome hard)

Yee Ching Jai Dong - (Use stillness to overcome Movement)

If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

[Yoshiyahu]

The following are IMHHHHHO, if you dont like it ignore it.
But one stood out concerning the Kuit Kuen...what does the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit and sayings say about stillness and movement? --------IMHO, one needs to have a strong foundation training to be able to know what is it. There is no stillness and movement, there is only flow. As it said, Comes accept, goes let it go back, set free and proceed, using silence to lead action.

The Immovable Root was talked about outside of the WC forum too I believe!

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1750


Here is a video I don't know how true it is or even if its applicable against a wrestler or grappler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2CA5HVA0Y

Now I have listed above from other styles outside of Wing Chun dealing with the root. I also seen a video of a guy standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma on a scale who was able to cycle the energy down to his feet and not be pushed or pulled.

I can not find the video...But if I do i will post it later!

As for the various purpose of your root in lets say Hung Gar or Karate its to develop the Qi or Chi. http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/horse-stance.html

Heres a video of some using YGKYM in Chi Kung. maybe the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is used for cultivating chi. So standing in the stance builds Chi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sebCAJhVH_o


Questions Concerning Wingchun:
Why do you think Some Wing Chun schools in the West center on building a root?

Also have you ever known any chinese to speak of the Root in Wing Chun?

What does sinking your chi have to do with your root?

[Hendrik]

ALL empty words.




You are absolutely right...I agree...


http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#General_Sayings

Extreme softness enables one to be hard. Being extremely natural enables one to be agile.


Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.

No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare

Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.

Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

Sink your inner chi.

Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power.



http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Specific3

Yee Yao Jai Gong - (Use soft to overcome hard)

Yee Ching Jai Dong - (Use stillness to overcome Movement)

If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

[Hendrik]

You might study WCK but you dont know WCK.

and, other art is not WCK either. Hung gar is Hung gar, Shao Lin is shao lin.

You certainly could mix different stuffs to call it Yoshiyahu style. But that is not WCK.




and only ignorance people will believe in a simple un realisitc demo is applicable against a wrestler or grappler.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2CA5HVA0Y







The Immovable Root was talked about outside of the WC forum too I believe!

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1750


Here is a video I don't know how true it is or even if its applicable against a wrestler or grappler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2CA5HVA0Y

Now I have listed above from other styles outside of Wing Chun dealing with the root. I also seen a video of a guy standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma on a scale who was able to cycle the energy down to his feet and not be pushed or pulled.

I can not find the video...But if I do i will post it later!

As for the various purpose of your root in lets say Hung Gar or Karate its to develop the Qi or Chi. http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/horse-stance.html

Heres a video of some using YGKYM in Chi Kung. maybe the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is used for cultivating chi. So standing in the stance builds Chi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sebCAJhVH_o


Questions Concerning Wingchun:
Why do you think Some Wing Chun schools in the West center on building a root?

Also have you ever known any chinese to speak of the Root in Wing Chun?

What does sinking your chi have to do with your root?

[Hendrik]

Why do you think Some Wing Chun schools in the West center on building a root? --------------


No idea.



But it is obvious root is not mention in the Kuen Kuit ----> Comes accept..... using silence to lead action.






Also have you ever known any chinese to speak of the Root in Wing Chun? -----


Chinese can speak of anything but being Chinese or from China doesnt mean WING CHUN.





What does sinking your chi have to do with your root?-------


What is Chi? What is root? is it WCK? can you do it? can those who tell you can do it?

[Hendrik]

I know, I am starting brutally shoot down everything.

Yup. I purposely do that.

just hope that people wake up. If you dont like other's nonsense critics then wake up and know what you are doing.



And if you dont like my posts please ignored it. Thanks.

[Hendrik]

IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO,

ROOT is a mislead term copy from the Taiji classical.




In The Taiji Classical , it aid " the root source is in the leg........ Focus on Yee not on Qi, using the Yee lead the Qi and transport the body...."



Some one without the attainment, inteprate/translate take the Root directly as the ultimate,
and not proceed to "Focus on Yee not on Qi, using the Yee lead the Qi and transport the body " which is the final result one needs to attain.


That screw up everything.

because people are mislead to think "ROOT" is the advance... magic.....etc . Not to know that it was mention there in the Taiji classic at the very begining just to address physical motion starts from the feet to help the beginer be able to handle the physical body properly in a unify motion.




But some copy that partial term, import to their practice, and market it as the supreme advance top chinese secret. Boy, what damage will this partial incomplete in accurate information cause? It can cause WCK to wipe out a whole new generation --- rooted the YJKYM.

and because of FACE or I have it too mentality, when people talk about Root and structure....etc they will say, "oh I have it too." and the mimic and the propagation of misleading continuous similar to watching the TV commercial and wearing the same green cloth because it is cool and looks smart.


So, how to root the YJKYM in a non WCK way? well, you could use the Hung Gar Iron wire set way. or Using Shao Lin horse stance way.

But then, both way makes you violate the WCK Kuen Kuit --- Come accept Goes return it.... which telling you flow with every momentum instead of ROOT and resistance to every momentum.


So, do you want to put an end to this stupid copy cat damage? follow the Kuen Kuit instead of any one's saying. ask to the depth what is the purpose of the training and what is the advance attainment.


To be real honest, if the YKYM cant open up /activate the 8 special medirians,
you are sitting duck/Turkey or ROOT duck/Turkey prepare to be roast. because you cant operate the body effectively and cant move properly! Yap, put your elbow in the center line, and wait for A, un nature body post which influenc health B, the BJJ put thier head on your chest and take you down.


and just by standing there acting like standing post Zhan Zhuang or working hard doesnt build up your chi or stance. you can do it years or even decade it doesnt do you any good. in fact, most end up with stress tense legs and screw up breathing.

Thus, in WCK it said, Learning has no Junior or senior, those who master the art is the teacher. That is nothing to do with standing there like a Turkey for 80 years and be the grand master.




REALLY REALLY SAD story and people buy into the partial misleading rooting stuffs.




OK, the above is just my opinion, you dont like it throw it in the garbage. If you think there is some truth in it, probe deep into it.

and in the sametime, be a nice person instead of always thinking fighting fighting and always delusion on "oh what to do if this guy do this and that guy do that....".


Doesnt the kuen kuit tell us WCner to "using silence to lead action" ?, if we keep thinking garbage when is our mind going to be quiet and know that silence? and when can the silence lead the action?

again, are you do WCK? if yes, then listern to what the ancestor teaches instead of create a mess for yourself.


living peacefully everyday is much much better then living in those delusion. and living in peace also accord to the teaching of the WCK principle.

[scottking]

"hoc mo mo gong sien hou, tat jei wai sien."

"lai lou hui soong, lut sao jik chung". Go with the flow baby.

[Yoshiyahu]

ALL empty words.

How can those words be empty?

Please explain?

As for Root. Its apart of Tai Chi correct, Its apart of Hung Gar,Karate, and many other styles of Kung Fu. But its not something advance...It is very basic. Like steps,punchs and kicks.


Come accept Goes return it.... which telling you flow with every momentum instead of ROOT and resistance to every momentum.

Well if you punch at me with a right cross. I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening. Can I not do this while being rooted?
Except what comes,accompany what leaves.


most end up with stress tense legs and screw up breathing.

1.Stretch before and afterwards(Get rid of stress and tense muslces).
2.Breath naturally


Did some School or Sifu hurt you? Where is all this negative emotion coming from?

Did some teach you bull S*** in the past? Is that why your so angry?

Why do mainland WC guys seem to have a deeper YGKYM than Hong Kong?


Not for clarification. Developing the root is for different reasons. Someone punching you in the head you don't stand an put your face because your root is so strong. You parry,deflect or intercept. If someone is shooting for your legs standing there waiting for hit is stupid. Why not move. Someone trying to throw a hard kick at you. Do you stick your chest out an take it. Or do you move. No. Stance training strenghten your legs and builds chi. An in transitional periods you do root. But not constantly.

[Hendrik]

How can those words be empty?
Please explain? -----

Can you do it? can those who translate to english do it? if not it is just empty words.






As for Root. Its apart of Tai Chi correct, Its apart of Hung Gar,Karate, and many other styles of Kung Fu. But its not something advance...It is very basic. Like steps,punchs and kicks. ---------



Are we talking about Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Karate here?
or we are talking about WCK?




Well if you punch at me with a right cross.
I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening.
Can I not do this while being rooted?
Except what comes,accompany what leaves. -------------



Lots of if. To many if and all type of senerios.... to many head thinking.






1.Stretch before and afterwards(Get rid of stress and tense muslces).
2.Breath naturally --------


there it said your stuffs doesnt cultivate Chi.









Did some School or Sifu hurt you? Where is all this negative emotion coming from?----

You miss read.

It is not negative emotion, it is alarm clock. hope that some one will awake.





Did some teach you bull S*** in the past? Is that why your so angry? -------


It is not angle is it sadness. sadness that WCK might not last another 20 years.





Why do mainland WC guys seem to have a deeper YGKYM than Hong Kong? ------

ask them.




Not for clarification. Developing the root is for different reasons. Someone punching you in the head you don't stand an put your face because your root is so strong.

You parry,deflect or intercept.

If someone is shooting for your legs standing there waiting for hit is stupid. Why not move. Someone trying to throw a hard kick at you. Do you stick your chest out an take it. Or do you move. No. --------


Is that WCK?



Stance training strenghten your legs and builds chi. An in transitional periods you do root. But not constantly. -------


tell me how long have you do the stance? how strong is your legs ? and what is the chi builds up?


again, what is stance? what is root? are these WCK's or other style's concept?

[Yoshiyahu]

You do alot of typing...But not real substance to what you are saying. Alot of high sounding reason but no real thought behind it.

Lets start off simple?

What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?



How can those words be empty?
Please explain? -----

Can you do it? can those who translate to english do it? if not it is just empty words.






As for Root. Its apart of Tai Chi correct, Its apart of Hung Gar,Karate, and many other styles of Kung Fu. But its not something advance...It is very basic. Like steps,punchs and kicks. ---------



Are we talking about Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Karate here?
or we are talking about WCK?




Well if you punch at me with a right cross.
I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening.
Can I not do this while being rooted?
Except what comes,accompany what leaves. -------------



Lots of if. To many if and all type of senerios.... to many head thinking.






1.Stretch before and afterwards(Get rid of stress and tense muslces).
2.Breath naturally --------


there it said your stuffs doesnt cultivate Chi.









Did some School or Sifu hurt you? Where is all this negative emotion coming from?----

You miss read.

It is not negative emotion, it is alarm clock. hope that some one will awake.





Did some teach you bull S*** in the past? Is that why your so angry? -------


It is not angle is it sadness. sadness that WCK might not last another 20 years.





Why do mainland WC guys seem to have a deeper YGKYM than Hong Kong? ------

ask them.




Not for clarification. Developing the root is for different reasons. Someone punching you in the head you don't stand an put your face because your root is so strong.

You parry,deflect or intercept.

If someone is shooting for your legs standing there waiting for hit is stupid. Why not move. Someone trying to throw a hard kick at you. Do you stick your chest out an take it. Or do you move. No. --------


Is that WCK?



Stance training strenghten your legs and builds chi. An in transitional periods you do root. But not constantly. -------


tell me how long have you do the stance? how strong is your legs ? and what is the chi builds up?


again, what is stance? what is root? are these WCK's or other style's concept?

[Hendrik]

You do alot of typing...But not real substance to what you are saying. Alot of high sounding reason but no real thought behind it.



I suggest you to re read my previous posts because the answer of " What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?" is there.

[Yoshiyahu]

I suggest you to re read my previous posts because the answer of " What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?" is there.

What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?

[Mr Punch]

Well if you punch at me with a right cross. I Tan Sau or pak sau and then follow your attacking hand to hit your opening. Can I not do this while being rooted?
Except what comes,accompany what leaves.Yes, you can. But there is no root in the kuen kuit.


You do alot of typing...But not real substance to what you are saying. Alot of high sounding reason but no real thought behind it.

Lets start off simple?
Mate, he can write it as simple as humanly possible and you don't seem to understand. He has already said: there is NO ROOT IN WING CHUN! WTF is high sounding reason about that? :p :rolleyes:

Now, I'm not sure if I agree with him or not, but it does make more sense than a lot of trash about wing chun I hear, and I don't have anywhere near a deep enough knowledge of wing chun to argue with him, even after all these years. Plus, my wing chun is strong enough to do what I want it to do I reckon in most cases, and I am always learning and growing through it, which is sufficient for me, though maybe no substitute for Hendrik's Buddhist beliefs. Fair enough. I have an interest in Buddhism from a strictly lay PoV: I am not Hendrik.

But the point is: he has said what he thinks clearly enough. If you are confused maybe you should stop asking questions about things he's already written and read them again - then we won't get these circular arguments ad nauseam.

Hendrik, thanks for persevering with this thread. Interesting. I'd never thought about your point before... I'd never really bothered to even consider that if it's not in the kuen kuit it therefore may not be wing chun... :D lol, I'll have to think about that more.

'The accept what comes, send what goes' always seemed to me to be the same as in many martial arts (I first came across it in aikido where it is the ultimate advocation of mobility) but I had always wondered how you were supposed to 'send' from one rooted position, and always aimed to do the opposite!

Couple of questions:

1) Are there no other expressions in any of the original Chinese that may be translated as 'root'-like concepts; eg. base?

2) Does the concept of chum not cover rooting in a whole body sense?

3) Is there a similar idea to the six directions of tai chi in wing chun? (This would maybe explain how to generate power through the spine, the muscle networks in your upper and lower back and the arch of your pelvic gridle together with the knees, feet etc without having to physically screw yourself into the ground)

4) I had come to think of my root in wing chun as being not there until I turn it on for the point of impact, and being not there again after... as I said elsewhere on this thread... on-off energy just like the punch itself. According to you, is this a load of old bollocks? :D

You don't have to soften anything for me... I like it straight! :D

[TenTigers]

alot of terms get misunderstood.
"Sink your horse" would be better stated, "sink IN your horse." The difference is that one is squatting lower-which is nonsense, and the other is describing an internal connection.
I believe the term,"Rooting," has suffered the same fate. Perhaps a better term would be structural alignmnet and connection. This implies a "Moveable root," but by saying "movable root", it adds to the confusion.
Think of what a root is. It is what maintains the structural integrity of the tree, connecting it to the earth. Then, we misunderstand the "connection to the earth" part and think we should sink our stance and be immovable and rigid, rather than connecting with our yi and internal structure.
just my thoughts on this.

[Yoshiyahu]

What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?




Yes, you can. But there is no root in the kuen kuit.

Mate, he can write it as simple as humanly possible and you don't seem to understand. He has already said: there is NO ROOT IN WING CHUN! WTF is high sounding reason about that? :p :rolleyes:

Now, I'm not sure if I agree with him or not, but it does make more sense than a lot of trash about wing chun I hear, and I don't have anywhere near a deep enough knowledge of wing chun to argue with him, even after all these years. Plus, my wing chun is strong enough to do what I want it to do I reckon in most cases, and I am always learning and growing through it, which is sufficient for me, though maybe no substitute for Hendrik's Buddhist beliefs. Fair enough. I have an interest in Buddhism from a strictly lay PoV: I am not Hendrik.

But the point is: he has said what he thinks clearly enough. If you are confused maybe you should stop asking questions about things he's already written and read them again - then we won't get these circular arguments ad nauseam.

Hendrik, thanks for persevering with this thread. Interesting. I'd never thought about your point before... I'd never really bothered to even consider that if it's not in the kuen kuit it therefore may not be wing chun... :D lol, I'll have to think about that more.

'The accept what comes, send what goes' always seemed to me to be the same as in many martial arts (I first came across it in aikido where it is the ultimate advocation of mobility) but I had always wondered how you were supposed to 'send' from one rooted position, and always aimed to do the opposite!

Couple of questions:

1) Are there no other expressions in any of the original Chinese that may be translated as 'root'-like concepts; eg. base?

2) Does the concept of chum not cover rooting in a whole body sense?

3) Is there a similar idea to the six directions of tai chi in wing chun? (This would maybe explain how to generate power through the spine, the muscle networks in your upper and lower back and the arch of your pelvic gridle together with the knees, feet etc without having to physically screw yourself into the ground)

4) I had come to think of my root in wing chun as being not there until I turn it on for the point of impact, and being not there again after... as I said elsewhere on this thread... on-off energy just like the punch itself. According to you, is this a load of old bollocks? :D

You don't have to soften anything for me... I like it straight! :D


Ten Tigers thank you for your Post...The best one yet!!!!

[Mr Punch]

What is the purpose of developing a root in Tai Chi?What's your purpose in quoting the whole of a long post and not asking anything relevant? :p

[Hendrik]

It is great to know a few of your out there read my post.

To be real honest, we as WCner got to really examine what we practice compare with what is the teaching.


The following are some in my mind which might as well share with you all.


1, watch out what you practice and what you think you are practice.

Analogy: Cooking sands cannot become rice. and most people today is cooking sands and thinking somedays it might become rice but totally have no clue on what is sand or rice.




2, things got to making sense,

IE: how the world one can flow when every day one keeps thinking and digging into Rooting.


3, Flow = Let Go Let God = "comes accept, goes return, let go thrust forward, using silence to lead action = non attachement = Dao mimic Nature = wonderfull existence within emptiness


These are the same things describe differently. Or in a brief. NOTHING is FIXED.

One LET GO THE FIXED AND LET GOD DO THE JOB.

The teaching can be from ANY Saints .. Buddha, LAo Tzu, Christ..... They just desribe it differently.

Buddhism was used here because WCK is a Chinese Buddhist derive art, the TRuth is always the same be it from the east or west.

There is no East or West, there is only How deep the level of teaching can goes.

There is nothing philosophical at all. dont just push or blame everything as philosophy mombu jumbo when we dont have a clue on what is going on.





If one creates a fixed or a ROOT or a post or a technics or a method.....etc that FIXED is a limitation or boundary. when a method is created, its limitation also comes with it.

IE A Chain Punch created the limitation also comes with it.

Thus, FIXED means stuck. One can read this illustrated in the japanese zen martial art classical book " the unflater mind" (sp)? or Immovable wisdom.



Is it that difficult to get start doing it? NOPE. it is just do one decide to do it or not.

a real life experience we all have on the LET GO LET GOD is driving a car. Do you fixed anything when you are in driving? do you have to do it in the WC way or MMA way? or just drive.

Certainly one needs to learn how to handle the automobile. but what is driving? Flow, let go let God isnt it?

Finally, In order to LET GO LET GOD, one needs to be in prayer or silence, one cannot LOOPING in one's speculation. one get oneself into Accident if one is blinding by one's LOOPING mind while driving . that is because one cause oneself to LOST consious/ Awareness unknowingly.

Thus, One needs to quiet one's mind (get into silence) then Let Go Let God. If you want to know what is silence or quiet mind. Sit quietly and doing a recitation or prayer for 10 mins, you know that state because that is a nature for all of us living being.



4, Mind and Body are no different. Both have to follow the LET GO LET GOD law.

If one practice the Come Accept.... principle then they need to practice it with thier mind and body.


There is no such thing as the body is flowing while the mind is stuck.
Nope, mind and body are one.

if one keep thinking about ROOT and FIX and Sustain and control and Resistance, the body will do what the mind thinking.


Similarly, if one think one have to be "This and That or a master or a figther" that is fixing one's mind and that create suffering/ stuckness/ struggle/ resistance/ drain/ opposition in life. That is a trap most done to oneself.

IE:
I FIX myself as a sifu, and thus you need to respect me. and thus, I cannot lost face. and thus I have to be right everytime.

TAN SAU is WC that is the highest advance art.....etc. and when you are so delude with your own fix thoughts running around and around some might kick you and some might take you down. That FIXED make you lost in your own "FIX thinking loop" = stuck = struggle = suffering


5, By practice the teaching of the Kuen Kuit "comes accept, goes return....." that is the same with practice LET GO LET GOD at every intstant. THERE one transform one's mind/body 24/7/365. and your living and your kung fu will certainly improve.

One resolve one's ego, one's depression, one's bad habit of the mind and body that way. There is only one practice --- called it Let Go Let God or Comes accept, goes return, or immovable wisdom......

Next time when you get trap into your FIX --- Desire, angle , hate, gong ho, ego... ask yourself, are you going to get stuck until you explode/drain your energy or you just make a decision to let the FIX Go. Same thing when the physical is stucked. you want to keep pushing it smashing it or similar to the water let it go and flow around it effortlessly?



6, Loving Kindness is much superior then hate and anger. Why? examine your body, when you are in the Loving Kindness/flow state or the hate, anger/ stuck state, which one drain energy? which one give you energy?

Loving kindness said nothing on not having advance and superior art. but a state of grace.
not having advance art is a matter of capability, it is independent of Loving kindness.

How is one going to be effective and efficient if that HATE and ANGER fill your body and drain your energy because you need so much energy to fix it there for what ever reason and to drain that energy for what ever reason.

Why not in Loving Kindness and peace and solve the issue with whatever it takes instead of draining oneself before one does anything to the issue.



So, what is internal Kung fu? that is keep the mind and body on watch 24/7/365 and use the mind/body for its best result. Shen, Qi, Jing are just three components describing the subtle of mind/body operation in the Chinese way.



7, Iron palm is great to strengtern one's arm, Iron vest is great to strengthern one's body and internal organs; WCK inch power is great way to summon power as one likes it.

However, think about it. How much hatre will be generate if one's body got damage by Iron palm strike of others? how much hatre will be generate if one's Iron vest got broken by deep penetration Jin? How much hatre will be generated bein hit by the inch power?


and if those hatre generated, revenge will be certain. how long do one like to get stuck into this? one generation? two generation? three generation? read the Chinese TCMA history, always there is someone come back for revenge.

I have heard that Even Dr. Leong Jan died because of the revenge of a young man because Leong Jan accidentally kill his father. Well, his son comes back and Leong let the young man has his way because he knows that is the only way to stop the hatre.





Finally,

You see, WCK is good the Kuen kuit is deep and good. It teaches us to liberate and set free and have a great living with a great kung fu.

as the kuen kuit said " let go and thrust forward" you cant thrust forward if you dont let go. you cant flow if you are fixed. You body cant flow if your mind is stuck. you mind cant flow if your body is rigidly fixed.


Since how you live is who you are.


Examine those sifus and late sifus and grandmasters.... see are they live in joy and success? or they live in struggle and pain and fear. Do you want to live that way?

Take Bruce Lee, he has advance art but how does he lives?


Your life you make your choice.

[Vajramusti]

Thus, FIXED means stuck. One can read this illustrated in the japanese zen martial art classical book " the unflater mind" (sp)? or Immovable wisdom.(Hendrik)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Unfettered Mind"


joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

What's your purpose in quoting the whole of a long post and not asking anything relevant? :p

Some just incapable to comprehend.
Thus, patient, compassionate and loving kindness is needed.

[Mr Punch]

Interesting again Hendrik, thanks.

The Let Go Let God way of putting things is a big no-no to me: it just smacks too much of Christianity (not my cup of tea) but I understand and appreciate the idea (as a very much lay Buddhist!). I'm sure my re-starting yoga has helped my wing chun and not just in terms of flexibility and relaxation, but in attitude and as you say 'flow'.

So, as usual, plenty to digest in your post.

I did ask some specific questions mind though, so if you have time (and deem them worthy of answering! :D)...


Some just incapable to comprehend.
Thus, patient, compassionate and loving kindness is needed. Dagnabbit! And sarcasm, condescension and ridicule are usually my first resort... :eek: well, to be fair I do try to manifest my patience, compassion and loving kindness through sarcasm, condescension and ridicule - I like to think it's tough love! :D

[Hendrik]

Thus, FIXED means stuck. One can read this illustrated in the japanese zen martial art classical book " the unflater mind" (sp)? or Immovable wisdom.(Hendrik)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Unfettered Mind"


joy chaudhuri


Joy,

Thanks 1000X!

Best Regards



The link for the book.

The Unfettered Mind: Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/4770029470/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link


worthed to check it out in Amazon.com, even the first few pages of the sample tell alots.... in good english.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes, you can. But there is no root in the kuen kuit.


What about Fajin? Does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

Does The Kuen Kuit mention Side Kick?

Does the Kuen Kuit mention Chin Na?

Does the Kuen Kuit mention Take Downs?


If it doesn't then does that mean True WC doesn't have Sidekicks,Qinna,Take Downs. Does this mean WC doesn't have Fajin?

Other things not mention in Kuen Kuit?

Hanging Horse?

Forward advancing stance?

Tok Sau and Tie Sau?

What about Kau Sau?

[Hendrik]

The Let Go Let God way of putting things is a big no-no to me: it just smacks too much of Christianity (not my cup of tea) but I understand and appreciate the idea (as a very much lay Buddhist!). ----


As soon as you get the idea that is what count.





I'm sure my re-starting yoga has helped my wing chun and not just in terms of flexibility and relaxation, but in attitude and as you say 'flow'. ----


That is the idea. Flow. The issue is to deal with mind, in the Ancient Chinese Zen koan, This mind of us is analogy to the son who steal our home's treasure. it is difficult to catch....



So, as usual, plenty to digest in your post. ----

Hope that what I post is usefull.






I did ask some specific questions mind though, so if you have time (and deem them worthy of answering! :D)... ----

I always enjoy discussing questions eventhought I dont have all the answer. So bring it up if you like. I tell you what I know.




Dagnabbit! And sarcasm, condescension and ridicule are usually my first resort... :eek: well, to be fair I do try to manifest my patience, compassion and loving kindness through sarcasm, condescension and ridicule - I like to think it's tough love! :D--------


Honestly, this is where I watch my mind and make that decision, to love and flow or to stuck and expecting attack and counter attack.
My late teacher told me to watch over these small stuffs that is the way to progress. if I cant switch now, I would not be able to switch at confrontation.

as my sifu told me, dont try Just Switch similar to switching TV channel, you are the master.

Well, because I want to know what is silence so much that my late sifu get me into these. hahaha,, not everyone's cup of tea.

[Hendrik]

What about Fajin? Does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

Does The Kuen Kuit mention Side Kick?

Does the Kuen Kuit mention Chin Na?

Does the Kuen Kuit mention Take Downs?


If it doesn't then does that mean True WC doesn't have Sidekicks,Qinna,Take Downs. Does this mean WC doesn't have Fajin?

Other things not mention in Kuen Kuit?

Hanging Horse?

Forward advancing stance?

Tok Sau and Tie Sau?

What about Kau Sau?




Fan Jin?

Suk Lat Taan Dong or shring, Release, bounce and vibrating .

hahaha, Again, no ROOT.


Now, how do you Fajin? or should I ask what is Jin? and How To Fa?

[Yoshiyahu]

Fajin is apart of Tai Chi



Fan Jin?

Suk Lat Taan Dong or shring, Release, bounce and vibrating .

hahaha, Again, no ROOT.


Now, how do you Fajin? or should I ask what is Jin? and How To Fa?

[Hendrik]

Fajin is apart of Tai Chi

I ask you what is FaJin, what is Jin and How to Fa?

if you dont know said it.

if you know, tell us what is Fajin? What is Jin and How to Fa?

[Yoshiyahu]

Fa=Explode

Jin=Power

Fajin uses the muscle tendons or body sinews to exert explosive force rather than mere arm strenght muscular power.

Fajin well Its from Tai Chi wouldnt you agree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

IMHO: The Way Fajin issuing force is emitted by way of feet from ground to the legs to the waist up the back through the shoulders spiraling out of arms emitting from the fist. Thus you have emittance of force issuance.

Thats all I know please include more:

[AdrianK]

Fajin uses the muscle tendons or body sinews to exert explosive force rather than mere arm strenght muscular power.

Thats funny, I wasn't aware I wasn't using my tendons in any of my strikes! :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Fajin uses the muscle tendons or body sinews to exert explosive force rather than mere arm strenght muscular power.
this is a statement that highlights the total misconception of how "mere" muscle power works;

first off: muscles are contractile, meaning that when they shorten, they create force; tendons are non-contractile, but elastic and can therefore store and release force; ligaments are also non-contractile, but are not involved in power generation, they are designed for protection of the joint at the end of normal physiological range;

the PROBLEM is that, according to TCM, the term "sinews" refers to ALL THREE - meaning that, TCM does not differentiate between these three very morphologically as well as functionally different types of connective tissue; so to make the above comment really makes no sense; especially because, without muscles, NOTHING is moving; furthermore, the idea that "muscle" power is somehow inferior is a conceit that probably has its roots in the literati scholar/warrior types in China who wanted to be able to have martial skill but not sully themselves by base training methods such as weight lifting (which TCMA had in spades)

so once and for all - if you are moving, you are using muscles; if you are generating force, you are using muscle (and tendons - because they are kind of, you know, ATTACHED TO EACH OTHER - hence the term "musculotendenous unit")

the real question is, HOW are you using the muscle force - is it such that you are creating tension by using agonists against antagonists simultaneously? or that you have excess facilitation of flexors and relative inhibition of extensors (very common)? or that your firing sequences are inefficient? or that you have a high hystersis ratio in the tendons? when people talk about "connection" in so-called "internal practice, they are describing a situation where the muscle function and the tendon function are optimal and working in concert with the breath, ground reaction force transfer (rooting) and coordinated timing in regards to managing the opponents incoming force (sticking. listening, etc.);

to deride muscle force as being somehow inferior is simply a sign of both ignorance as well as smugness that many so-called "internal" practitioners demonstrate, a holier-tan -thou attitude that they use to dismiss the inferior way "externalists" train, even though most externalists would beat the living crap out of them without missing a beat;

[taai gihk yahn]

Thats funny, I wasn't aware I wasn't using my tendons in any of my strikes! :rolleyes:

see? goes to show what you know! :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Fa=Explode

Jin=Power

Fajin uses the muscle tendons or body sinews to exert explosive force rather than mere arm strenght muscular power.

Fajin well Its from Tai Chi wouldnt you agree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g ----------------





So what is the different between Lik and Jin?

Since you often mention FAJIN what is FAJIN in WCK?

What type of Jin WCK have?



are the following fajin? what is the different?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTUKhuouiRg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fIucL-Q4vo&feature=related









IMHO: The Way Fajin issuing force is emitted by way of feet from ground to the legs to the waist up the back through the shoulders spiraling out of arms emitting from the fist. Thus you have emittance of force issuance. ----------


Can you do it?



how about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIJHAQEiLVc&feature=related

[Hendrik]

this is a statement that highlights the total misconception of how "mere" muscle power works;

first off: muscles are contractile,.............. most externalists would beat the living crap out of them without missing a beat;



OK, how do you explain this with your theory above?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSyue-NAy6k&NR=1


so how do you Fa Jin and what is Jin?

[taai gihk yahn]

OK, so how do you Fa Jin and what is Jin?

in a nutshell; coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil; if done with a partner, it is timed appropriately based on what he "offers" you;

how do you do it?

[Hendrik]

IMHO, This doesnt do it. I could be wrong.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMrIjLvPTLA&feature=related

[Hendrik]

in a nutshell; coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil; -------

To be real honest, In my experience, what you describe above is not different then the Kyokushin training and might be even not as practical.




how do you do it? -----


Depend, There is the Kyokushin, there is the white crane of fujian, there is Wing Chun's inch jin, there is Yee Chuan ..... lots of different way because they used different jin. IMHO.

[taai gihk yahn]

IMHO, This doesnt do it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMrIjLvPTLA&feature=related

I agree; the way that he does "Swinging Heavenly Pivot" at 5:35 is completely incorrect

[taai gihk yahn]

To be real honest, In my experience, what you describe above is not different then the Kyokushin training and might be even not as practical.

perhaps; although there's only really one way to tell for certain, of course...

[Hendrik]

perhaps; although there's only really one way to tell for certain, of course...




No offend


I can be totally wrong. what do this old guy know. hahaha



What is your back ground?

I find your post in the internal art very interesting.

[Hendrik]

I agree; the way that he does "Swinging Heavenly Pivot" at 5:35 is completely incorrect


IMHO, these stuffs are New age relaxation.

It doesnt cultivate Qi thus not to mention transport Qi.

[Hendrik]

Quote:
Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
then there is another level, that of "shen", or noumena - this is actually what was considered "true" internal by many sects, and involves practices such as "100 Days Opening";


even this supposedly "mystical" practice is really nothing more than working with the body and mind, the "end" result being that one achieves a state of awareness that allows for an ending to habitual responses, nothing more or less, which is the essence of Ch'an - awareness of suchness

.................I have been able to explain via a non-TCM perspective (that which I can't yet, well, I'm still working on it!) - which to me, simply validates it even more, as it demonstrates the universality of what it encompasses

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




interesting, could you please share


1, what is mind?

2, What is shen?

3, What is suchness?

4, is "a state of awareness" suchness?

5, How can one get to suchness from mind and body?

[Edmund]

OK, how do you explain this with your theory above?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSyue-NAy6k&NR=1



Looks like a 90 year old guy trying to push over a 100 year old guy. I'd agree it can probably be done without much muscular force!

He almost managed it OR maybe a stiff breeze came along.

[Hendrik]

maybe a stiff breeze came along.


it must be the breeze. hahaha

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you guys think its possible for someone to develop chi to a point where they can move objects from ten feet a way or make paper catch on fire just by touching the paper while channeling their Chi?

This is gonna be good!!!

[SimonM]

Absolutely not.

Do you? If so why?

[Yoshiyahu]

Absolutely not.

Do you? If so why?

Just asking...because it seems thats where the discussions always leads to when discussing Chi. Instead of the natural stuff. But if someone could move an object I would love to see it for myself. Provided I got bring my own object to be moved.

but I have never saw or heard anyone say they can do such a feat. How ever I know some strange things are possible. Like telling the future or speaking things into existence. I have experience this and seen it first hand. Could be a concidence or not.

So I dont count telekinesis or chi out.

[SimonM]

Like telling the future or speaking things into existence. I have experience this and seen it first hand.

Telling the future:

On the day that you read this post you will waste at least ten seconds of your life which you will never be able to recover.

Wow, I must be a psychic or something. :eek:

:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

HW108,

you are nothing but a disgraceful example of how cowards claim much and know nothing.

Ignore is your friend Dale, since I've had him on ignore the forums hasn't been as so full of crap.
Next one on the list seems to be Yoshiyahu, he flip flops on his positions more than a 2 dollar crack *****.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay Guys what would be the best way to use your BJJ along with Wingchun to counter a Tai Chi Quan guy of Hung Gar guy who has a solid root.

I could be wrong but My limited knowledge I would say use a front kick to shins to distract him or front kick to abs and then follow up with chain punches to drive him to the ropes. An when in the clinch trap his power punching arm and utilize a classic a aikido lock and take down to get him face down on the ground. When he is faced down on the ground move in for the rear mount(back mount) an place him in a rear naked choke hold until he passes out or taps out. An then bamo wamo you wing $5000.

What do you guys think?

How would you guys go about doing it. I may be wrestling a big heman looking guy soon. He is big,black and a huge muscular Hercules. He also has practiced Greco roman wrestling with a little Wing Chun,Reika and Yoga.

Whats your advice guys?


Are there any advantages to using the triangle choke when in the full guard posistion. Or would be a disadvantage when fighting a guy that big.

Please share?




I am sure if he had made posts asking about the benefits of BJJ you guys would have been swarming around him and accepting him to your MMA brotherhood but as it happens he makes ACTUAL kung fu enquiries. Your limited abilities to answer such questions results in you insulting him.

[Hendrik]

Does a ball have root?

[Yoshiyahu]

Does a ball have root?

Thats a good question...Are you comparing WC to a ball?

How to crane fighters train their roots?

Do snake fighters practice the root also?

AS for a ball having a root. I will have to asked my Sifu this week...thats a really good question!

[Hardwork108]

Does a ball have root?
The faster a ball rolls the less root it will have.;)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

When discussing root one must consider if that root is to remain constant. IMHO one who is firmly rooted can sacrifice mobility. Perhaps one need only obtain or apply the "root" when either exerting or accepting energy.

Consider Pakua and tell me why they are able to be so mobile yet strike effectively. Also Jesse Glover teaches a kind of hop step\punch which is very powerful.........is this an example of good root.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello,

When discussing root one must consider if that root is to remain constant. IMHO one who is firmly rooted can sacrifice mobility. Perhaps one need only obtain or apply the "root" when either exerting or accepting energy.

Consider Pakua and tell me why they are able to be so mobile yet strike effectively. Also Jesse Glover teaches a kind of hop step\punch which is very powerful.........is this an example of good root.

Like I mentioned on another thread, rooting is task specific and system specific.

[Hendrik]

Hello,

When discussing root one must consider if that root is to remain constant. IMHO one who is firmly rooted can sacrifice mobility. Perhaps one need only obtain or apply the "root" when either exerting or accepting energy.

Consider Pakua and tell me why they are able to be so mobile yet strike effectively. Also Jesse Glover teaches a kind of hop step\punch which is very powerful.........is this an example of good root.



This is exactly where the confusion come in.

Going this way is the kiss of death.


Be it Taiji....Yee Chuan...... all advance TCMA with internal Kung, what you all call root here is just 1/6 of the whole story if you understand it properly, but, majority using these type of theory/concept doesnt even get the full 1/6 because most doesnt know clearly what is that 1/6.



the bottom line idea of the ancient Chinese masters is to become an invisible TaiJi Ball, so how the heck those rooting concept you all post can lead to this invisible Taiji Ball?
With all these ridigulous concept and theory and sifu says. IT CANT or IT DOESNT GO ANY WHERE.




As for those who complain that I complain, see, perhaps, it is not I complain, it is your dictionary is limited. and I am just pointing out you dont understand the full story.

and if you dont understand, how the heck are you going to train and get result?
Other then mouth kung fu and all kind of clear arguement but wasting live.



Bottom line, any one who just teach you about ROOTING, they dont understand the art and thier Kung fu cannot be at high level. That certain.

For decades now people all talks about ROOTING, STRUCTURE,..... everyone will argue they got it right and every idea's opinion, translation..... is good. all kind of nice New Age compliment.

But the reality, is the Taiji expect is training to become a Taiji Ball. how the heck is the so called rooting can get one there? so, it is most stupid to import some one's concept without even knowing what is going on. Going that path not only being caught steallling art red handed and also produce junk. How smart is that? This is very sad. it is like cooking sand trying to hope for rice.



Just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

Like I mentioned on another thread, rooting is task specific and system specific.


So what is rooting? dont tell me one needs to be a rocket scientist to know different between Tan sau and karate side outward block, or rooting. I dont buy those fantasy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So what is rooting? dont tell me one needs to be a rocket scientist to know different between Tan sau and karate side outward block, or rooting. I dont buy those fantasy.

root·ed, root·ing, roots

v. intr.

1. To grow roots or a root.
2. To become firmly established, settled, or entrenched.
3. To come into existence; originate.

v. tr.

1. To cause to put out roots and grow.
2. To implant by or as if by the roots.
3. To furnish a primary source or origin to.
4. To remove by or as if by the roots. Often used with up or out: "declared that waste and fraud will be vigorously rooted out of Government" (New York Times).

[Hendrik]

The faster a ball rolls the less root it will have.;)


first becomes a ball, only after the ball state one can become a flow.


Thus, the kuen kuit said, "comes accept, goes return... using silence to lead action"

But most keep reciting the kuen kuit and spinning thier brain and argue in the forum without knowing a single thing of what the kuen kuit teach.


As it said in Zen,


The dumb teaching the dumb
One is teaching one is learning but both clueless.
The sifu goes to hell.
and
guess where the heck the student end up?





Time to wake up.

[Hendrik]

root·ed, root·ing, roots

v. intr.

1. To grow roots or a root.
2. To become firmly established, settled, or entrenched.
3. To come into existence; originate.

v. tr.

1. To cause to put out roots and grow.
2. To implant by or as if by the roots.
3. To furnish a primary source or origin to.
4. To remove by or as if by the roots. Often used with up or out: "declared that waste and fraud will be vigorously rooted out of Government" (New York Times).



words... but full of empty words.

[sanjuro_ronin]

words... but full of empty words.

hardly, you seem to have not understood what I posted earlier:


Like I mentioned on another thread, rooting is task specific and system specific.

[Hardwork108]

first becomes a ball, only after the ball state one can become a flow.
And becoming the "ball" involves becoming "relaxed", "soft" and "sensitive (listening abilities) using the correct mind set?

To "roll" the ball then one must use the mind (or mind like water) to "flow"?

You are talking about the above?


Which would in part explain the following part of kuen kuit? :



Thus, the kuen kuit said, "comes accept, goes return... using silence to lead action"


As it said in Zen,


The dumb teaching the dumb
One is teaching one is learning but both clueless.
The sifu goes to hell.
and
guess where the heck the student end up?

They might end up with a BJJ black belt and then post in this forum thinking that the BJJ black belt together with some bad kung fu makes them a Wing Chun expert. ;)






Time to wake up.

Agreed. :)

[Hardwork108]

root·ed, root·ing, roots

v. intr.

1. To grow roots or a root.
2. To become firmly established, settled, or entrenched.
3. To come into existence; originate.

v. tr.

1. To cause to put out roots and grow.
2. To implant by or as if by the roots.
3. To furnish a primary source or origin to.
4. To remove by or as if by the roots. Often used with up or out: "declared that waste and fraud will be vigorously rooted out of Government" (New York Times).
:confused:

[Yoshiyahu]

Wounderful post Hendrik...Since you are enlighten please share with us


What is rooting?

Also what Systems teach rooting correctly? Would you say Hung Gar?



An if WC shouldn't use Rooting at any time but only flow...Does that mean in order to flow you have to sacrifice your root? Does that mean your stance never sinks into the ground?

Does this mean you do not use ground power to generate strikes?


Is it useless to practice rooting in WC?

If yes what is the alternative?



first becomes a ball, only after the ball state one can become a flow.


Thus, the kuen kuit said, "comes accept, goes return... using silence to lead action"

But most keep reciting the kuen kuit and spinning thier brain and argue in the forum without knowing a single thing of what the kuen kuit teach.


As it said in Zen,


The dumb teaching the dumb
One is teaching one is learning but both clueless.
The sifu goes to hell.
and
guess where the heck the student end up?





Time to wake up.

[Hendrik]

Wounderful post Hendrik...Since you are enlighten please share with us ----

if you read my post, you will not asking me the following questions of yours.



What is rooting? ----


How can I know what the heck you are doing?





Also what Systems teach rooting correctly? Would you say Hung Gar? -----

Can you mind your own business and master your own art before anything?





An if WC shouldn't use Rooting at any time but only flow...Does that mean in order to flow you have to sacrifice your root? Does that mean your stance never sinks into the ground? -------


all these speculation. why dont you master your own art and see for yourself instead of ask 100000 people and sifus and all opinions are great but empty words.





Does this mean you do not use ground power to generate strikes? ----

again all the mind speculation.





Is it useless to practice rooting in WC? If yes what is the alternative?-----

what is a sifu is for? ask your sifu .

[Hendrik]

And becoming the "ball" involves becoming "relaxed", "soft" and "sensitive (listening abilities) using the correct mind set?

To "roll" the ball then one must use the mind (or mind like water) to "flow"?

You are talking about the above?


Which would in part explain the following part of kuen kuit? :



)


1, what you mention above " relaxed, soft, sensitive......correct mind set " still didnt enter the door. because those doesnt describe the kung fu. as I said before, what I have heard is the 8 special medirians GOT to activate.

relaxed, soft, sensitive... correct mind set sound great but that description is no different then having a romantic cozy chat with my pretty girl friend beside the fire place in the cold wisconsin when I was a teenager. what is that got to do with activating the 8 medirians and activate the body smoothly.


2, one cant jump into the kuen kuit until having a certain level attainment in SLT. otherwise, it becomes a Quoting games, who dont know how to qout confusian, Lao Tze, Buddha, but can one do it that is a very very different story.



3, See, no one here asked me why do I said 1/6? where is that number comes from? that shows how sad is this world , people just want to listern what they want to listern, argue to win, and being agree on.

with only 1/6 training even if one have full training one only can handle 16.6% of the case, no wonder as what Mas Oyama said, those Kung Fu guys keep talking about footwork and all the flowery stuffs but they cant move when engage.

Thus, there is a making fun of WCK Kuen kuit said
" come accept, goes return, but you couldnt even move. Let go and thrust forward both hit each other."

Or

in Cantonese,

Lai lau hui Soong, Lei Chao but tong.
Lat sau jet choong, leong ko chai chung.



WAKE uP on these Pseudo Taijin import Rooting game.


the 1/6 is strickly basic physics. but most have no clue. but keep day dreaming in thier YJKYM and SLT. keep day dream and getting older and older and making more stories and stories. but cant even handle the basic physics.


For those who is interested, dig into this forum and check into my post on the six directional force and Non Broken arrow platform. That is the begining of the "ball".

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39113&highlight=directional+force

[Yoshiyahu]

My Sifu believes in practing the root...an the yip man school i visited also practice rooting...



Wounderful post Hendrik...Since you are enlighten please share with us ----

if you read my post, you will not asking me the following questions of yours.



What is rooting? ----


How can I know what the heck you are doing?





Also what Systems teach rooting correctly? Would you say Hung Gar? -----

Can you mind your own business and master your own art before anything?





An if WC shouldn't use Rooting at any time but only flow...Does that mean in order to flow you have to sacrifice your root? Does that mean your stance never sinks into the ground? -------


all these speculation. why dont you master your own art and see for yourself instead of ask 100000 people and sifus and all opinions are great but empty words.





Does this mean you do not use ground power to generate strikes? ----

again all the mind speculation.





Is it useless to practice rooting in WC? If yes what is the alternative?-----

what is a sifu is for? ask your sifu .

[Hendrik]

My Sifu believes in practing the root...an the yip man school i visited also practice rooting...



Fine, ask your sifu.

[Yoshiyahu]

Fine, ask your sifu.

I know what my Sifu teaches about Root. An I agree with his teachings...

But I am curious about your definitions?

Please share your enlightenment:

What is rooting?

Also what Systems teach rooting correctly? Would you say Hung Gar?

[taai gihk yahn]

As it said in Zen,


The dumb teaching the dumb
One is teaching one is learning but both clueless.
The sifu goes to hell.
and
guess where the heck the student end up?



Time to wake up.
that's a good one; the key aspect is that the way that the teacher and the student are "cluless" is very different; it's the same thing in regards to how the Emperor Liang and Boddhidharma say "I don't know" when asked about the true nature of Dharma; meaning that the Emperor (student) really is clueless, whereas Boddhidharma's (teacher) "cluelessness" is based on direct experience of "no mind" (hence, "cluless");

the teacher going "to he1l" is a way of indicating that he has to descend into danger in order to teach - meaning that he has to risk mispeaking himself by utilizing words which, while being necessary in order to instruct someone who has not awakened, are inherently dualistic and therefore cannot actually relay what the teacher has experienced ("the Dao that can be spoken of etc."); this can also be described as going down into the weeds; in one famous koan, the teacher says he will die and go to hel1, and the surprised student asks him why, the teacher says that if he doesn't go to he1l to teach the student, who will? again, it means that the teacher has to "regress" back into the dusty world in order to truly teach - this is a key aspect of Ch'an - the teacher is as much "at risk" as the student, so it truly is interactive - if the teacher were teaching from "beyond" the range of the student's experience, then he really can't reach the student directly...it's like trying to rescue someone drowning in the middle of a lake by staying on the shore: won't work...

[Wayfaring]

Okay Guys what would be the best way to use your BJJ along with Wingchun to counter a Tai Chi Quan guy of Hung Gar guy who has a solid root.

I could be wrong but My limited knowledge I would say use a front kick to shins to distract him or front kick to abs and then follow up with chain punches to drive him to the ropes. An when in the clinch trap his power punching arm and utilize a classic a aikido lock and take down to get him face down on the ground. When he is faced down on the ground move in for the rear mount(back mount) an place him in a rear naked choke hold until he passes out or taps out. An then bamo wamo you wing $5000.

What do you guys think?

How would you guys go about doing it. I may be wrestling a big heman looking guy soon. He is big,black and a huge muscular Hercules. He also has practiced Greco roman wrestling with a little Wing Chun,Reika and Yoga.

Whats your advice guys?


Advice? Sure. Stop describing hypothetical situations with romosexual descriptions?

[Wayfaring]

Does a ball have root?

The faster a ball is rolling the more surface area of it is in connection with the ground in a given period.

One example is motorized vehicles. Hitting the accelerator increases the stability in the back end.

[punchdrunk]

maybe instead of using nonspecific jargon we should make this as plain as possible. Could we agree that rooting is being able to control our foot work under the pressure given by an opponent? If this isn't a good enough description I encourage everyone to offer other ideas. Once we get past that we can discuss how different people train it and what their goals are. This could become a good topic if we don't get stuck.

[Hendrik]

maybe instead of using nonspecific jargon we should make this as plain as possible. Could we agree that rooting is being able to control our foot work under the pressure given by an opponent? If this isn't a good enough description I encourage everyone to offer other ideas. Once we get past that we can discuss how different people train it and what their goals are. This could become a good topic if we don't get stuck.


The so called Rooting in general today is only cover one of the 6 direction force in a 3 diamensional physical world.

Meaning,

the down ward force vector is just 1/6 of the total, 6 directional force.


See, the Chinese model is a six directional force . when all the force vector is complete, This in Taiji is called Huan Yuan lik in Yee Chuan is Called Liu Mean lik.

So, those who doing standing post or Zhan Zhuang to cultivate holistic momentum ability. The ultimate goal is to cultivate this six directional force.




Thus, say in Taiji, it talks about Root, but in the same time, it also talk about Hang.
meaning the Root from Ground and Head top hang to heaven.

with this Root and Hang couple, one has a balance one dimensional practice. However, it is still not complete. because it lacks the left/right and forward/backward components.

So, up/down, left/right, forward/backward = the six directional needs to be holistic in order to become the So called Taiji ball, or the Hoon Yuan .....etc. before one can roll.


So, the reason in the ancient time, one needs to stand in the post for 3 months to 3 years or always go back and refine the stand in post or Zhan Zhuang is to fine tune the 6 directional force . without those, foot work....etc just doesnt do much. there is no instant Noodle Kung Fu. sure some might progress faster then others but no Instant Noodle.

And extremely important, one needs to have the complete view and process.
Say, if today we dont know about the 6 directional force. we keep practice the rooting, one can do it in 1000X life time, still, one cant move properly, that is for sure.


While one "root" one needs to "hang" so that the "root" doesnt become "DEAD weight" , the spine not become compressing but betwen joins of the spine like cusion with an air packet. .....
Thus, one could totally drill into the center of the earth but feeling float like weight less. That is the essential of SLT/SNT training. thus, it is not Hung Gar Iron wire or .... it is a different type of kung fu.

See, rooting is nothing to do with heavy.


Now, people takes partial thing such as ROOT and make a big deal on it. well, one can do anyting one wants and argue about it, but if one doesnt even know and later have /transform one's "momentum body "into a ball or 6 directional balance momentum one doesnt that kung fu.




without the holistic six directional force training, forget about fajin. one doesnt have the basic training to support fa jin. and the 6 directional force vectors links to the activation of the 8 special medirians.

all of these above and jin and lik has to be crystal clear on the cause and effect, nothing mysterious.


Finally, hope that the information above is used for our daily living, because we all are aging, knowing these stuffs , do a proper training will aid us for our movements at old age.




just some thoughts.

[punchdrunk]

thanks but that was a lot of extra terms and jargon, and a lot of different ideas from different systems thrown in to boot.
Let's try to keep it plain and basic to avoid misunderstanding if possible.

[Hendrik]

thanks but that was a lot of extra terms and jargon, and a lot of different ideas from different systems thrown in to boot.
Let's try to keep it plain and basic to avoid misunderstanding if possible.





There is a reason for in depth term, those are not jargon or extra.

If one is going to university, like it or not, one need to pass SAT. and like it or not one need to pass the vocaburaly test.

If one is going to Grad school, like it or not, one need to pass Gmat.


That is the reality.


ofcorse some might decide not to go to university or grad school. However, the truth of the matter doesnt change due to either go or not going to grad school.



Sure it is not every one's piece of cake. but without going far and deep enough one just dont know.

and also, the more data points or the more the detail description give less chance for mis-understanding in stead of the reverse.

say as simple as relax, there are loose relax, there are aware relax, there are expanding relax, there are dooze off relax, there are non attached relax.... so which relax one needs to be in to get into the state of Silence? Which relax one needs to be in to let the qi surface? ....... lot of stuffs and lots of term needed.

[Yoshiyahu]

maybe instead of using nonspecific jargon we should make this as plain as possible. Could we agree that rooting is being able to control our foot work under the pressure given by an opponent? If this isn't a good enough description I encourage everyone to offer other ideas. Once we get past that we can discuss how different people train it and what their goals are. This could become a good topic if we don't get stuck.


I have said the same things to hendrik as well...He doesn't understand what you mean punchdrunk...


thanks but that was a lot of extra terms and jargon, and a lot of different ideas from different systems thrown in to boot.
Let's try to keep it plain and basic to avoid misunderstanding if possible.

Well I think hendrik point is real Wing Chun doesn't train root at all!

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share how one trains the six directional force to open up the eight meridans. Also is there a way to awaken the the meridans by practicng Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma while Sinking the weight down to ground. An would this of course open up the meridans along with proper meditation?


Also please share the Meridans locations and Channel locations that you are speaking of?



The so called Rooting in general today is only cover one of the 6 direction force in a 3 diamensional physical world.

Meaning,

the down ward force vector is just 1/6 of the total, 6 directional force.


See, the Chinese model is a six directional force . when all the force vector is complete, This in Taiji is called Huan Yuan lik in Yee Chuan is Called Liu Mean lik.

So, those who doing standing post or Zhan Zhuang to cultivate holistic momentum ability. The ultimate goal is to cultivate this six directional force.




Thus, say in Taiji, it talks about Root, but in the same time, it also talk about Hang.
meaning the Root from Ground and Head top hang to heaven.

with this Root and Hang couple, one has a balance one dimensional practice. However, it is still not complete. because it lacks the left/right and forward/backward components.

So, up/down, left/right, forward/backward = the six directional needs to be holistic in order to become the So called Taiji ball, or the Hoon Yuan .....etc. before one can roll.


So, the reason in the ancient time, one needs to stand in the post for 3 months to 3 years or always go back and refine the stand in post or Zhan Zhuang is to fine tune the 6 directional force . without those, foot work....etc just doesnt do much. there is no instant Noodle Kung Fu. sure some might progress faster then others but no Instant Noodle.

And extremely important, one needs to have the complete view and process.
Say, if today we dont know about the 6 directional force. we keep practice the rooting, one can do it in 1000X life time, still, one cant move properly, that is for sure.


While one "root" one needs to "hang" so that the "root" doesnt become "DEAD weight" , the spine not become compressing but betwen joins of the spine like cusion with an air packet. .....
Thus, one could totally drill into the center of the earth but feeling float like weight less. That is the essential of SLT/SNT training. thus, it is not Hung Gar Iron wire or .... it is a different type of kung fu.

See, rooting is nothing to do with heavy.


Now, people takes partial thing such as ROOT and make a big deal on it. well, one can do anyting one wants and argue about it, but if one doesnt even know and later have /transform one's "momentum body "into a ball or 6 directional balance momentum one doesnt that kung fu.




without the holistic six directional force training, forget about fajin. one doesnt have the basic training to support fa jin. and the 6 directional force vectors links to the activation of the 8 special medirians.

all of these above and jin and lik has to be crystal clear on the cause and effect, nothing mysterious.


Finally, hope that the information above is used for our daily living, because we all are aging, knowing these stuffs , do a proper training will aid us for our movements at old age.




just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

Please share how one trains the six directional force to open up the eight meridans. Also is there a way to awaken the the meridans by practicng Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma while Sinking the weight down to ground. An would this of course open up the meridans along with proper meditation?


Also please share the Meridans locations and Channel locations that you are speaking of?

I am just a messenger,

To be real honest, that is your sifu's job.

thus, one needs to bai si and learn if one doesnt have a sifu, cant do it in the net.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

anyone got an pics or vids? I hate youtube so Mpeg form or wmv or something, i watched most of Phil's vids excellent by the way. I dunno about you all but im more of a visual learner.

[Hendrik]

I have said the same things to hendrik as well...He doesn't understand what you mean punchdrunk...


is it I dont understand or
is it one needs to go to the mountain instead of asking the mountain to walk to one?

one needs to eat one needs to chew.

[Wayfaring]

The so called Rooting in general today is only cover one of the 6 direction force in a 3 diamensional physical world.

Meaning,

the down ward force vector is just 1/6 of the total, 6 directional force.


See, the Chinese model is a six directional force . when all the force vector is complete, This in Taiji is called Huan Yuan lik in Yee Chuan is Called Liu Mean lik.

I agree with Hendrik. The general concept of rooting is usually connected to sinking down into the ground somehow.

Real structured rooting as seen in many disciplines covers the ability to deal with force upon your structure in all 6 directions, and would of necessity cover the ability to keep this structure while moving and in your transitions in movement.

[Hendrik]

I agree with Hendrik. The general concept of rooting is usually connected to sinking down into the ground somehow.

Real structured rooting as seen in many disciplines covers the ability to deal with force upon your structure in all 6 directions, and would of necessity cover the ability to keep this structure while moving and in your transitions in movement.

IMHO, from my decades of studying.

Let's not use the term Rooting because it is confusing, but using the 6 D force as the fundamental model. the reason is after the 6 D force being done in static, one can enter into dynamic, as for the Rooting it is always focus or center on the grounding or down ward force. one usually got stuck because the too much emphasis on downward and also missing other direction force components.


with the 6 D force model as a general platform, one can use this model to analyzed different art such as Taiji, Yee Chua, Bagua, Wing Chun... to see how each different style have a different way of handling the 6 D force.

and with the different handling of the 6 D force or the six directioal Li, then one be able to move forward to understood Jin properly. Jin is just Li's flow patern. and sure due to different art is different in their 6 D force patern, the jin then will be different.


when it comes to issuing jin or fa jing, then one can know clearly which direction force is activate or triggle and the timing......or what reaction force in what direction is use as triggling......etc. to the force to flow in different patern or direction.

simple and clear.

The only thing is if the 8 medirians are not activate, then the sensitivity of the 6 D force is not well handle or even stuck.

IE: most who does the YJKYM only handling two medirians, the other six much less uses or ignore. that create an rigid movement and or un stable execution.....etc.

[Genetic]

The so called Rooting in general today is only cover one of the 6 direction force in a 3 diamensional physical world.

...
While one "root" one needs to "hang" so that the "root" doesnt become "DEAD weight" , the spine not become compressing but betwen joins of the spine like cusion with an air packet. .....
Thus, one could totally drill into the center of the earth but feeling float like weight less. That is the essential of SLT/SNT training. thus, it is not Hung Gar Iron wire or .... it is a different type of kung fu.

See, rooting is nothing to do with heavy.


Now, people takes partial thing such as ROOT and make a big deal on it. well, one can do anyting one wants and argue about it, but if one doesnt even know and later have /transform one's "momentum body "into a ball or 6 directional balance momentum one doesnt that kung fu.

without the holistic six directional force training, forget about fajin. one doesnt have the basic training to support fa jin. and the 6 directional force vectors links to the activation of the 8 special medirians.

all of these above and jin and lik has to be crystal clear on the cause and effect, nothing mysterious.




Hendrik, I have mentioned before that my daughter doesnt have to understand say what walking is to be able to walk.

But what you are describing here about 6 directional force, do you think that this is what people learn from wing chun training anyway, without going into too much unnecessary detail?

First you study SNT and train YJKYM. You develop you (downward) root. And train energy and structure.

Then you study CK. You learn how to 'un-heavy' your root. You learn to move whilst keeping rooted. For me my structure changed, which changed the way I did SNT. My body became more upright, leaning back less than when training SNT originally. You learn how to be solid on the floor and stick to it, with at times a lot of forward potentil, a bit like a coiled spring, but also to become free from the floor and move whilst still in contact with the floor, when rotating and moving forwards.

When you have this, moving forwards, backwards, sideways whilst retaining structure and body unity is understood? Without imaginary or real but unnecessary to know about energy channels?

My daughter is amazing, and can do amazing things. Weridly she doesnt even know what she is.

[punchdrunk]

maybe another persons view point besides Hendrick on rooting? Not to be snobbish but I find his topics always end with him saying to bai si to a better Sifu, or saying we can't understand his level because we can't read chinese.
I think Wing Chun is as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. If we share a similar concept or definition for rooting, in my experience one of the best ways it is trained is in beginning 2 handed chi sao with a senior pushing and pulling a juniors stance while he tries to maintain good balance, facing, and keeping a good tan/bong or fook structure. At this beginning stage he should be trying to stay in yjkym as best he can. I would love to hear others training ideas, experiences or methods.

[Hendrik]

maybe another persons view point besides Hendrick on rooting?

Not to be snobbish but I find his topics always end with him saying to bai si to a better Sifu, or saying we can't understand his level because we can't read chinese.



1, I have never say you cant understand the subject i mention because you did read chinese. Never. and in fact lots of people here understand what I wrote.

2, Baisi is a truth and the fastest way to learn. I myself have many sifus and still baisi to learn what I dont know. So what is the big deal about baisi if one want to learn something in depth?


it is ok to dont like my posts, so ignore them.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I have mentioned before that my daughter doesnt have to understand say what walking is to be able to walk.


.............. My daughter is amazing, and can do amazing things. Weridly she doesnt even know what she is.



Sure you are absolutely right. In that case, you dont even have to learn WCK either right?

[Hardwork108]

Sure you are absolutely right. In that case, you dont even have to learn WCK either right?
Wise words Hendrik. I mean it.:)

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand your post...but to me you tend to ramble on with alot unneeded info. Alot of what you say is either useless information or off topic info. An sometimes you just draw out your explanation instead of getting to the point. A wise saying is to make your words few and brief. No need to have long winded explanation.

So in other words keep your words simple and concise. No need to write a thesis all the time. Just simply make your point. I understand because I too use to have the same problem until I learn how to speak and write in common vernacular so others can understand. Maybe take a college class on speech giving and writing.

Even Barak Obama's speeches are more concise and simple than yours an he is the president of the united states...You might take note of that.


1, I have never say you cant understand the subject i mention because you did read chinese. Never. and in fact lots of people here understand what I wrote.

2, Baisi is a truth and the fastest way to learn. I myself have many sifus and still baisi to learn what I dont know. So what is the big deal about baisi if one want to learn something in depth?


it is ok to dont like my posts, so ignore them.

[Hendrik]

I understand your post...but to me you tend to ramble on with alot unneeded info. Alot of what you say is either useless information or off topic info. An sometimes you just draw out your explanation instead of getting to the point.

A wise saying is to make your words few and brief. No need to have long winded explanation.

So in other words keep your words simple and concise. No need to write a thesis all the time. Just simply make your point. I understand because I too use to have the same problem until I learn how to speak and write in common vernacular so others can understand. Maybe take a college class on speech giving and writing.

Even Barak Obama's speeches are more concise and simple than yours an he is the president of the united states...You might take note of that.





You certainly are absolutely correct with your mind set.

The shell of eggs or the skin of apple is useless too for some.

[Genetic]

Sure you are absolutely right. In that case, you dont even have to learn WCK either right?

Tonight I found her in the kitchen, fridge door open, milk bottle lid off, with a bowl of cerial overfilled with milk, and milk all over the floor. No spoon though, and the floor was a mess, but not bad for 18 months.

How did she do it? By watching, absorbing and imitating. Not through over analysis or intellectual interpretation. More simply she learned through watching her brothers making their breakfast every morning.

As to your (rhetorical because you think you have won some kind of argument already) question, yes you have to learn WCK. You especially have to learn WCK because it goes against natural reactions and instincts. e.g. Tension.

You just dont need to overanalyse, and attribute its workings to mystical ancient conceptual understandings of the workings of the world.

You could just learn it from watching, absorbing, imitating, and through the experience of taking part.

[Hardwork108]

Tonight I found her in the kitchen, fridge door open, milk bottle lid off, with a bowl of cerial overfilled with milk, and milk all over the floor. No spoon though, and the floor was a mess, but not bad for 18 months.

How did she do it? By watching, absorbing and imitating. Not through over analysis or intellectual interpretation. More simply she learned through watching her brothers making their breakfast every morning.

As to your (rhetorical because you think you have won some kind of argument already) question, yes you have to learn WCK. You especially have to learn WCK because it goes against natural reactions and instincts. e.g. Tension.

You just dont need to overanalyse, and attribute its workings to mystical ancient conceptual understandings of the workings of the world.

You could just learn it from watching, absorbing, imitating, and through the experience of taking part.

I believe that Hendrik is referring to the CORRECT understanding of Wing Chun principles.

[Genetic]

I believe that Hendrik is referring to the CORRECT understanding of Wing Chun principles.

So presumably you dont think you could learn Correct wing chun principles through watching, absorbing and imitating?

Presumably you have to understand chi and chi meridians etc to be able to perform Correct wing chun?

What do you think are the correct wing chun principles that you cannot learn without overintellectualising and viewing through the concepts and ideas of an ancient and as yet totally unfabricated 'science'?

[Hardwork108]

So presumably you dont think you could learn Correct wing chun principles through watching, absorbing and imitating?
Just watching and imitating are not enough. Of course, you can learn up to a point but not beyond. It is like watching a doctor operating on a patient but if you don't understand the meaning of what he is doing then you may kill someone if you attempt to do the same.


Presumably you have to understand chi and chi meridians etc to be able to perform Correct wing chun?
Yes, that is, for higher level Wing Chun performance.


What do you think are the correct wing chun principles that you cannot learn without overintellectualising and viewing through the concepts and ideas of an ancient and as yet totally unfabricated 'science'?

Well you can watch principles like "accepting force" and "following force out" with a "silent mind" many many times but if someone doesn't tell you about them and what they mean then you will not get the full benefits. Of course, those who learn by just watching and copying will get somewhere and will not necessarily know that they are missing something, however, they will not even get half of the "story".

Let me give you an example. If a little kid watches the Simpsons then he will be impressed by the slap stick side of the show. An adult, who would be well versed in the "principles" of life will see the show in a different light (adult humor, political satire and so on).

[Genetic]

Im not so sure.
Actually, I am, and I disagree.

But I think we share an appreication of the Simpons. Even if it is only itchy and scratch that I am fond of. In your mind.

[Hardwork108]

Im not so sure.
Actually, I am, and I disagree.

But I think we share an appreication of the Simpons. Even if it is only itchy and scratch that I am fond of. In your mind.

I took the time to explain to you why you could not just learn kung fu by merely watching and immitating. The ball is in your court. You can use the info or discard it. It seems that you have taken the latter option so I am "looking forward" to another poster's clueless remarks regarding kung fu training aspects such as the forms, internals, Chi sao, Iron Palm and so on.

[Yoshiyahu]

Part of your Wing Chun training is merely watching...correct...

You have to watch your Sifu perform SLT to learn how to do it.

An then you practice it.

But step three is refinement.


Your Sifu fine tunes your form. Parts you may have overlooked or couldn't see or comprehend he reveals to you thus rescoping your structure allowing you perform SLT accurately.


But seeing and watching and imitating is only the first part...

The third part is actual combat. Testing your WC...


Tonight I found her in the kitchen, fridge door open, milk bottle lid off, with a bowl of cerial overfilled with milk, and milk all over the floor. No spoon though, and the floor was a mess, but not bad for 18 months.

How did she do it? By watching, absorbing and imitating. Not through over analysis or intellectual interpretation. More simply she learned through watching her brothers making their breakfast every morning.

As to your (rhetorical because you think you have won some kind of argument already) question, yes you have to learn WCK. You especially have to learn WCK because it goes against natural reactions and instincts. e.g. Tension.

You just dont need to overanalyse, and attribute its workings to mystical ancient conceptual understandings of the workings of the world.

You could just learn it from watching, absorbing, imitating, and through the experience of taking part.

[Genetic]

I took the time to explain to you why you could not just learn kung fu by merely watching and immitating. The ball is in your court. You can use the info or discard it. It seems that you have taken the latter option so I am "looking forward" to another poster's clueless remarks regarding kung fu training aspects such as the forms, internals, Chi sao, Iron Palm and so on.

Thanks we just have radically different views, it doenst need to be so personal.

When I was younger I used to study psychology, but dropped it because people were too tied up with the subject, and used to take criticism of ideas too personally. Everyone had their own take, many justifying themselves or others even using their concepts as a crutch. As such to me it was worse than religion, and about as scientific. So I ditched it.

I dont believe in Chi. And i dont think that means you cannot develop great wing chun. The latter I know to be true.

[Yoshiyahu]

You dont have to believe in Chi to develop it...

Cultivation of Chi comes by doing not knowing...


Thanks we just have radically different views, it doenst need to be so personal.

When I was younger I used to study psychology, but dropped it because people were too tied up with the subject, and used to take criticism of ideas too personally. Everyone had their own take, many justifying themselves or others even using their concepts as a crutch. As such to me it was worse than religion, and about as scientific. So I ditched it.

I dont believe in Chi. And i dont think that means you cannot develop great wing chun. The latter I know to be true.

[Hendrik]

han religion, and about as scientific. So I ditched it.

I dont believe in Chi. .



Chi is not a believe.
Chi is an energy flow which direct at will.

[Hendrik]

Cultivation of Chi comes by doing not knowing...


is that the fact?
Who have you learn cultivate chi from?

[m1k3]

So it is only possible to learn correct kung fu by being taught by an instructor, who learned from an instructor...and so on.

But I have a simple question, who did the first instructor learn from? :confused:

If you meet the Buddha on the path to nirvana, kill him. :eek:

[t_niehoff]

So it is only possible to learn correct kung fu by being taught by an instructor, who learned from an instructor...and so on.

But I have a simple question, who did the first instructor learn from? :confused:

If you meet the Buddha on the path to nirvana, kill him. :eek:

Very insightful post.

I too think that "transmission view" that TMAists's often have is flawed. They see WCK as some sort of body of knowledge, The Secret Book, and believe that you can only get the "real wing chun" or "correct kung fu" through someone that has The Secret Book. And they measure their worth by how close they are to the holder of The Secret Book( the grandmaster).

But that view begs the question of even if you know someone's lineage, how can you know if they have genuine skill or knowledge? Assuming, for example, that Rickson is the best BJJ guy on the planet and I study from Rickson, how can we know whether I "got it" or not, that I have great skill in BJJ? The same applies to any martial art.

[Hendrik]

So it is only possible to learn correct kung fu by being taught by an instructor, who learned from an instructor...and so on.

But I have a simple question, who did the first instructor learn from? :confused:

If you meet the Buddha on the path to nirvana, kill him. :eek:




To learn calculus correctly one needs to learn from some one who knows calculus.

BTW. your qoute about Buddha is in proper, even those who see's thier original face needs the mind seal syncronization to align what they attain is what it is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To learn calculus correctly one needs to learn from some one who knows calculus.

BTW. your qoute about Buddha is in proper, even those who see's thier original face needs the mind seal syncronization to align what they attain is what it is.

And the only way to know that he knows calculus is to see if he can do it correctly, right?
So, in terms of MA, only someone that can achieve the desired results is doing the MA correctly, yes?
Regardless of who taught him?
So, IF MA is about fighting, only by seeing/experiencing a person fighting and being successful ie: not being defeated/surviving can we know if the person KNOWS MA.
Yes?

[Hendrik]

if you know someone's lineage, how can you know if they have genuine skill or knowledge?





simple,

two person can take the same calculus class and one might be the best and one might be not as good, But both knows the basic of integration and differentiation.

and,
Those who has no clue of what calculus is cant know what is going on.

[Hendrik]

Regardless of who taught him?

Can a swimmer learn to swim with a runner who is clue less with swimming at all?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can a swimmer learn to swim with a runner who is clue less with swimming at all?

Of course not, we all need someone to point the finger and correct the mistakes, but in the end, THEY don't swim for us, we do.

[Hendrik]

Of course not, we all need someone to point the finger and correct the mistakes, but in the end, THEY don't swim for us, we do.


1, the point is one needs someone to coach one in the proper direction. One needs to swim one's own lap that is given.




2, since you do WCK, now, what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


3, Same thing, what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?




#2 and 3 are sure progressive and one can do it in a life time and still progress.
certainly, some could be real advance and some might just beginer's level.


Now, let's open the card, what needs to be attain for one to know one's YJKYM is proper and one's SLT/SNT is proper?

See, one needs to know all of these. otherwise, it is a mimic business and as Terence said, what is the result?

I will ask, what the heck are you doing and do you know what the heck you are doing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

1, the point is one needs someone to coach one in the proper direction. One needs to swim one's own lap that is given.




2, since you do WCK, now, what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


3, Same thing, what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?




#2 and 3 are sure progressive and one can do it in a life time and still progress.
certainly, some could be real advance and some might just beginer's level.


Now, let's open the card, what needs to be attain for one to know one's YJKYM is proper and one's SLT/SNT is proper?

See, one needs to know all of these. otherwise, it is a mimic business and as Terence said, what is the result?

I will ask, what the heck are you doing and do you know what the heck you are doing?

All valid questions, no doubt.

[t_niehoff]

The problem with Hendrik's calculus analogy is that WCK or any fighting isn't an academic subject (an intellectual pursuit) -- it is a learned skill. SKILL. PHYSICAL SKILL.

WCK is like boxing or like wrestling or like any other martial art. It's not rocket science.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem with Hendrik's calculus analogy is that WCK or any fighting isn't an academic subject (an intellectual pursuit) -- it is a learned skill. SKILL. PHYSICAL SKILL.

WCK is like boxing or like wrestling or like any other martial art. It's not rocket science.

A solid fact, I mean, one my have the greatest 100 meter sprint coach, that doesn't mean you will break the 10 second mark and some gifted person might have an average coach and ruin it in 9.95.

Sure its great to have a great coach, but what defines one as a great coach?
Knoweldge or accomplishment?
Ability to do or ability to teach how to do?

[t_niehoff]

All valid questions, no doubt.

And the answer to those questions is obvious IF YOU SEE THESE THINGS AS FIGHTING SKILLS. You know that you are performing the skill successfully when you are performing it sucessfully, that it is working in fighitng. If you can't make your YJKYM work in fighting, how can it be "correct"? How do you know your jab is working? How do you know that you elbow escape is working? These are simple things when you are doing them (in fighting).

The REAL question is: how can you KNOW you are doing some fighting skill correctly if you aren't fighting?

[sanjuro_ronin]

And the answer to those questions is obvious IF YOU SEE THESE THINGS AS FIGHTING SKILLS. You know that you are performing the skill successfully when you are performing it sucessfully, that it is working in fighitng. If you can't make your YJKYM work in fighting, how can it be "correct"? How do you know your jab is working? How do you know that you elbow escape is working? These are simple things when you are doing them (in fighting).

That's just crazy talk !!
:D

[Hendrik]

The problem with Hendrik's calculus analogy is that WCK or any fighting isn't an academic subject (an intellectual pursuit) -- it is a learned skill. SKILL. PHYSICAL SKILL.


calculus can be academic however for Design engineer/Architec who design control system or structure system, it is a matter of life and death. it is not an intellectural pursuit, but a language of Physics. and it requires SKILL to use it properly.

Miscalculation means destruction or the plane, the power station, the building, the bridge.....etc.

[Hendrik]

All valid questions, no doubt.

Now,

Can anyone IE Terence and You take time to answer these questions? if not then what are we talking about?

[t_niehoff]

calculus can be academic however for Design engineer/Architec who design control system or structure system, it is a matter of life and death. it is not an intellectural pursuit, but a language of Physics. and it requires SKILL to use it properly.

Miscalculation means destruction or the plane, the power station, the building, the bridge.....etc.

Dude, calculus can be, like you say, critical. But it is not a physical skilll. WCK is not an academic subject but a physical skill. Does it take skill to do calculus? Sure. But IT IS NOT A PHYSICAL SKILL.

Human beings don't learn or develop PHYSICAL SKILLS like they do academic/iontellectual subjects.

[t_niehoff]

Now,

Can anyone IE Terence and You take time to answer these questions? if not then what are we talking about?

I've already answered them. Read my post above.

And maybe you'll answer my REAL question.

[m1k3]

To go back to my original post, using calculus as the new baseline.

You learn it from a good teacher, but who did those equations the first time and who did he learn it from?

It always goes back to someone had to do it first. Someone had to look at the basics and add the next level.

To look at something and say, this can't be improved, is nothing more than a path to stagnation and eventually extinction.

Learn everything you can from everyone but follow your own path.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To go back to my original post, using calculus as the new baseline.

You learn it from a good teacher, but who did those equations the first time and who did he learn it from?

It always goes back to someone had to do it first. Someone had to look at the basics and add the next level.

To look at something and say, this can't be improved, is nothing more than a path to stagnation and eventually extinction.

Learn everything you can from everyone but follow your own path.

Everything can be improved and everything needs to evolve, even if it means taking a step back.

[t_niehoff]

To go back to my original post, using calculus as the new baseline.

You learn it from a good teacher, but who did those equations the first time and who did he learn it from?

It always goes back to someone had to do it first. Someone had to look at the basics and add the next level.

To look at something and say, this can't be improved, is nothing more than a path to stagnation and eventually extinction.

Learn everything you can from everyone but follow your own path.

Instead of calculus, take boxing. We can learn boxing from Dempsey's book. Does this mean that the ONLY RIGHT WAY to box is according to Dempsey? And that we judge our boxing by how closely we move while not acuaully boxing (fighting) according to what Dempsey says? Of course not.

This is part of the TCMAist's problem -- the book (or grandmaster) says so so that's not only the right way but the only way. They are more concerned with the book than performance. The book is AT BEST just a guide for you while you EARN YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE boxing. You have to find your own boxing, not parrot Jack Dempsey. (And even Jack couldn't do what he said to do in his book!).

You judge your boxing on your performance actually fighting (sparring/boxing) not by how closely you conform to the book.

Now the funny thing is that many TCMAists have books by people who couldn't box! And those books become their Bibles!

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is the crux of the matter- results.

If someone says they can increase you "KO" power with method A and you follow method A, how are you going to know if it worked?
Well, there is only one way, by KO'ing people.
Now, of course certain attributes are more easily measured and verified than others, but the Litmus test is the same, results.
You have to have clear cut goals though.

[t_niehoff]

That is the crux of the matter- results.

If someone says they can increase you "KO" power with method A and you follow method A, how are you going to know if it worked?
Well, there is only one way, by KO'ing people.
Now, of course certain attributes are more easily measured and verified than others, but the Litmus test is the same, results.
You have to have clear cut goals though.

If you see these things as PHYSICAL SKILLS, then you automatically think in terms of results since results is part of the definition of skill. Skill is defined by motor skill experts as your ability to successfully bring about a desired result with maximum certainty and minimum time and/oreffort.

[m1k3]

sanjuro_ronin and t_niehoff, I agree with both of you, of course.

What I was hoping to do is set up a mirror for those who claim or demand the real - traditional - deeper wing chun and show them it had to start some where and that wing chun's predecessor had to start some where and so on and so on.

Some one, some where, had to innovate, think and test to build wing chun.

Which implies that the innovation, thinking and testing is still going on. Because if it isn't then wing chun is a dead art. :(

[Yoshiyahu]

Can we leave the calculus analogy alone...We get so far away from fighting with Wing Chun...

Lets not make WC into a Philsophy, Religion or some form of thinking outside the box.

Lets make it about Combat!

[m1k3]

Can we leave the calculus analogy alone...We get so far away from fighting with Wing Chun...

Lets not make WC into a Philsophy, Religion or some form of thinking outside the box.

Lets make it about Combat!

See, this is something I have a problem with. I am a former Jarhead who served a long time ago. I was never in combat but I had some good friends who where.

Yoshi, whatever you are doing with your wing chun, it is NOT combat. Not even close. To be honest what most people do with their wing chun isn't even very close to fighting.

[Hendrik]

See, this is something I have a problem with. I am a former Jarhead who served a long time ago. I was never in combat but I had some good friends who where.

Yoshi, whatever you are doing with your wing chun, it is NOT combat. Not even close. To be honest what most people do with their wing chun isn't even very close to fighting.



I agree. and lets get into the WCK specific.


if one cant even answer to the following questions in a clear and definite way. One dont even do the basic of WCK. so, let's get to the very basic and specific. answer the following questions.


--------------------------




what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?




#2 and 3 are sure progressive and one can do it in a life time and still progress.
certainly, some could be real advance and some might just beginer's level.


Now, let's open the card, what needs to be attain for one to know one's YJKYM is proper and one's SLT/SNT is proper?

[m1k3]

SLT is about relaxation, correct use of energy and forward intent.

The goat stance is just a stance. Use it or not as you see fit.

[Hendrik]

SLT is about relaxation, correct use of energy and forward intent.

The goat stance is just a stance. Use it or not as you see fit.


IMHO, those are just open generization and even bias concept which in doesnt say much to track the proper and progression of the training. Thus, these type of instruction doesnt aid the training much at all.

This kind of stuffs doesnt contribute to the high standard of the ancient time, in fact, due to the fuzzyness and over generization, it degrades the level of WCK.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin and t_niehoff, I agree with both of you, of course.

What I was hoping to do is set up a mirror for those who claim or demand the real - traditional - deeper wing chun and show them it had to start some where and that wing chun's predecessor had to start some where and so on and so on.

Some one, some where, had to innovate, think and test to build wing chun.

Which implies that the innovation, thinking and testing is still going on. Because if it isn't then wing chun is a dead art. :(

Every system was developed from "scratch" at a certain point, typiclaly from other systems. We can keep going as far back as possible in the hopes of finding THE original one, but it is a waste of time because, as we know, systems change to suit the environment.
The WC of TODAY is not the WC of yesteryear, NOR shoudl it be.
WC fighters have different things to deal with today as oppossed to even 50 years ago.
As such WC must, if needed, change to deal with these things and yet maintain the core principles that make it WC.
And the only way to do it is to TEST it and the only test for a fightign system is fighting.

[m1k3]

IMHO, those are just open generization and even bias concept which in doesnt say much to track the proper and progression of the training. Thus, these type of instruction doesnt aid the training much at all.

This kind of stuffs doesnt contribute to the high standard of the ancient time, in fact, due to the fuzzyness and over generization, it degrades the level of WCK.


Thank you Sifu for passing on your wisdom. What form of Wing Chun was used in these "ancient times"? From what I was taught, Wing Chun became a separate style in the late 1600 or early 1700s. Hardly ancient times. I must have been taught wrong or incomplete information. Of course you have the "real" wing chun while I have nothing but glorified kickboxing knucklehead Wing Chun.

Please enlighten me about the "ancient" traditions and standards of Wing Chun oh mighty warrior scholar of the internets.

I wait humbly and patiently for your teachings Sifu of the true Wing Chun. My path must be wrong for the light of the TAO shines brightly on your words magnificent warrior of the true unsullied linage dating back to the dawn of time. I stand in awe of your wisdom and hope only to be able to partake of the crumbs of your feast of knowledge.

Old Ancient Wing Chun
Hendrick has bared your body
Sifu of the truth

[Hendrik]

The WC of TODAY is not the WC of yesteryear, NOR shoudl it be.
.


That is the biggest disaster.




as the chinese said,

make a Drawing of ghost is ease but make a drawing of human is difficult.

Why?

because

no one has seen ghost, so one can draw anything and call it ghost.

as for Human, everyone know how a human looks like, so people know if one is not drawing human.


WCK has become ghost for most, so, sure it is easy to draw as one likes it. One can draw it in a Hung gar way, a CLF way, a Taiji Way, a BJJ Way....
but is it human or it is ghost?


bottom line for WCK, if one cant evoke the Inch Jin or the fast accelerate Jin, there is no indepth WCK exist anymore.

[Hendrik]

Thank you Sifu for passing on your wisdom.

I am not sifu Just Hendrik


What form of Wing Chun was used in these "ancient times"? From what I was taught, Wing Chun became a separate style in the late 1600 or early 1700s.

until solid technical evident is shown, it is just a speculation.




I must have been taught wrong or incomplete information.


who knows?



Of course you have the "real" wing chun while I have nothing but glorified kickboxing knucklehead Wing Chun.


That is what you post. as you like it. nothing to do with me.




Please enlighten me about the "ancient" traditions and standards of Wing Chun oh mighty warrior scholar of the internets.


who do you speak to?




I wait humbly and patiently for your teachings Sifu of the true Wing Chun. My path must be wrong for the light of the TAO shines brightly on your words magnificent warrior of the true unsullied linage dating back to the dawn of time. I stand in awe of your wisdom and hope only to be able to partake of the crumbs of your feast of knowledge.


Great. Tell it to your sifu.





BTW:

it is just two simple questions, no Dao, no sifu, no Ancient, no Truth, no clever reasoning, no need critical thinking.........but just something similar to those appear in a cook book to instruct one to cook proper food.



what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?


Simple is it?

[bawang]

fist law not permanent
you can do whatever you want

[Hendrik]

fist law not permanent
you can do whatever you want



Sure, keep dreaming and not wake up.

[bawang]

hy

i was quoting ming dynasty shaolin manual word for word
kuen fat buk ding

if a 6 feet tall 180 pound guy want to beat up people, using an obscure close range boat kung fu ,desined for short 120 pound southerners, that was never focused on empty hand fighting in the first place, that never proved its efectivenes on the lei tai, he will be never be good to the day he is old man

[t_niehoff]

That is the biggest disaster.

as the chinese said,

make a Drawing of ghost is ease but make a drawing of human is difficult.

Why?

because

no one has seen ghost, so one can draw anything and call it ghost.

as for Human, everyone know how a human looks like, so people know if one is not drawing human.


It's not difficult to see whether someone is doing WCK or not. Doing WCK is fighting with the WCK tools. We know what those tools are from the forms, from the drills, from the exercises. In the same way it is easy to see if someone is doing boxing or not.



WCK has become ghost for most, so, sure it is easy to draw as one likes it. One can draw it in a Hung gar way, a CLF way, a Taiji Way, a BJJ Way....
but is it human or it is ghost?

bottom line for WCK, if one cant evoke the Inch Jin or the fast accelerate Jin, there is no indepth WCK exist anymore.

No, the level of one's WCK is the level of their ability to fight using the WCK tools, just as the level of one's boxing is the level of their ability to fight using boxing's tools.

[Yoshiyahu]

What Style of Kung Fu do you practice?

Do you possess inch Jin?

[m1k3]

What Style of Kung Fu do you practice?

Do you possess inch Jin?

I practice Wing Chun and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Due to financial reasons and the fact I have to admit I am just getting too old to be rolling around the mats with a bunch of 20 somethings, I am dropping the BJJ after 2 and a half years.

I did about 6 months of wing chun at a school, but then it closed however I continue to work it on my own.

Since I am dropping the BJJ I will be in the market for a new school. At 55 years old I want to find something that isn't quite as "vigorous" as the BJJ but still has some sort of sparring.

As for inch Jin, mine is more like 7 inches.

How about you?

[Hendrik]

It's not difficult to see whether someone is doing WCK or not. Doing WCK is fighting with the WCK tools. We know what those tools are from the forms, from the drills, from the exercises. In the same way it is easy to see if someone is doing boxing or not.



No, the level of one's WCK is the level of their ability to fight using the WCK tools, just as the level of one's boxing is the level of their ability to fight using boxing's tools.



ok, Fighting with the WCK tools.

So, let start with the most basic and fundamental before proceed further.



Please share your answer on the basic of the tool.



what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?

[Hendrik]

hy

i was quoting ming dynasty shaolin manual word for word
kuen fat buk ding

if a 6 feet tall 180 pound guy want to beat up people, using an obscure close range boat kung fu ,desined for short 120 pound southerners, that was never focused on empty hand fighting in the first place, that never proved its efectivenes on the lei tai, he will be never be good to the day he is old man

hahaha,

I am just talking about "cooking" instruction so that one knows how to cook the basic food. and how to know if the food is cooked or is it raw or is it half cook...

[m1k3]

hahaha,

I am just talking about "cooking" instruction so that one knows how to cook the basic food. and how to know if the food is cooked or is it raw or is it half cook...

And that is done by crossing hands and I don't mean chi sao.

No matter how well you know the principles, no matter how deep your knowledge of ancient traditions and techniques, if you keep eating punches when sparring your food is raw.

If you can't fight with your wing chun what good is it?

[t_niehoff]

ok, Fighting with the WCK tools.

So, let start with the most basic and fundamental before proceed further.

Please share your answer on the basic of the tool.

what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?

what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?

With any fighting skill, you can only measure it by and through your ability to use it in fighting. How good is your jab, how good is your hip throw, how good is your elbow escape, how good is your YJKYM? It's how well YOU can use them in fighting. That's the criterion.

The SLT/SNT form/set doesn't develop anything. It is practicing fighting movements in the air. You don't learn to ride a bike by practicing bike riding movements in the air; you learn by getting on the bike and riding it.

[Hendrik]

No matter how well you know the principles, no matter how deep your knowledge of ancient traditions and techniques, if you keep eating punches when sparring your food is raw.


You are absolutely correct. I agree with you 200%.

However, what I am brought up is no what you address above.


Thus, go back to the 2 questions and answers them in details. those are baby steps, or how to turn on the cooker.





If you can't fight with your wing chun what good is it?


I agree with you 10000%.

[Hendrik]

With any fighting skill, you can only measure it by and through your ability to use it in fighting. How good is your jab, how good is your hip throw, how good is your elbow escape, how good is your YJKYM? It's how well YOU can use them in fighting. That's the criterion.


great

however that still doesnt say what is the purpose of YJKYM and how "cook" is the YJKYM needed before it can be eat or use in fighting.




The SLT/SNT form/set doesn't develop anything.


It is practicing fighting movements in the air. You don't learn to ride a bike by practicing bike riding movements in the air; you learn by getting on the bike and riding it


ARe you doing WCK? if not then your "The SLT/SNT form/set doesn't develop anything. " if yes, then it has to develop something.

So what is that something one develop?


if you do WCK and practice SLT/SNT and willing to get by on it doesnt doing anything. how critical thinking do you have?

it totally doesnt make any sense to invest on something doing nothing, or it is a waste of life.


It is like saying practicing rolling in the tatami or mat doesnt do anything for Judo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is like saying practicing rolling in the tatami or mat doesnt do anything for Judo.

By rolling do you mean Randori/sparring or rolling around on the mats?
We don't actually "roll" on the mats...

[t_niehoff]

great

however that still doesnt say what is the purpose of YJKYM and how "cook" is the YJKYM needed before it can be eat or use in fighting.


You look at WCK from the preconceived notion that there is a "right" or "proper" way to do things. I don't. I have my way. But my way may be different than someone else's. What matters is how well we can use it however we use it. If someone can use their YJKYM differently than me but to great effect, how can I say they are wrong?

And you can't develop a fighting skill "before" fighting -- that's like trying to develop bike riding skills before riding the bike.



ARe you doing WCK? if not then your "The SLT/SNT form/set doesn't develop anything. " if yes, then it has to develop something.

So what is that something one develop?


You're not DOING WCK unless you are fighting. Practicing a form isn't DOING WCK -- it is practicing the movements in the air. Doing a boxing set isn't boxing.

You don't learn to box through forms.



if you do WCK and practice SLT/SNT and willing to get by on it doesnt doing anything. how critical thinking do you have?

it totally doesnt make any sense to invest on something doing nothing, or it is a waste of life.

It is like saying practicing rolling in the tatami or mat doesnt do anything for Judo.

Forms/sets don't develop anything. They are a really poor way of training. Unfortunately, the ancient chinese had very little idea of how to teach or how people best learned. This is why chinese pedgogy is universally recognized as substandard and why they have begun adopting modern teaching/learning methods. Just because some ancient people taught in certain ways doesn't mean those ways were any good.

Practicing forms is not the same thing as rolling or randori -- rolling and randori are forms of sparring. As I said, you don't learn to ride a bike by practicing bike riding movements in the air, but by riding the bike. Rolling and randori are riding the bike.

[Hendrik]

By rolling do you mean Randori/sparring or rolling around on the mats?
We don't actually "roll" on the mats...



I am not talking about Randori but something even basic

do the beginer still do front fall, side fall to prepare for ipon seoi nage.....ect and roll to prepare for tomonage these days?

[m1k3]

You look at WCK from the preconceived notion that there is a "right" or "proper" way to do things. I don't. I have my way. But my way may be different than someone else's. What matters is how well we can use it however we use it. If someone can use their YJKYM differently than me but to great effect, how can I say they are wrong?



QFT.

Hendrick, I do not believe we will ever see eye to eye on this.

Return to your ancient scrolls, the dead are whispering to you from across the ages.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am not talking about Randori but something even basic

do the beginer still do front fall, side fall to prepare for ipon seoi nage.....ect and roll to prepare for tomonage these days?

Breakfalls are not "rolling" Hendrick.
Just as doing SLT is not fighting.
To equate rolling around to SLT is actually quite the insult to SLT, no?
What is your WC background by the way?

[Hendrik]

Breakfalls are not "rolling" Hendrick.


so what do you call the "rolling" to prepare for the tomonage?

Those type of "rolling" is what I refer to.





Just as doing SLT is not fighting.


Who talks about SLT is fighting?






To equate rolling around to SLT is actually quite the insult to SLT, no?


I define "Rolling" above for equavalent purpose.

where is insult comes in to play?







What is your WC background by the way?

Low and beginner level.

[Hendrik]

You look at WCK from the preconceived notion that there is a "right" or "proper" way to do things.


I dont.



I have my way. But my way may be different than someone else's. What matters is how well we can use it however we use it.

You certainly can call that Terence kuen but is it WCK?






If someone can use their YJKYM differently than me but to great effect, how can I say they are wrong?


There is nothing right or wrong. The point is what is YJKYM for WCK ? until that being clearly define, who knows what is WCK?






And you can't develop a fighting skill "before" fighting -- that's like trying to develop bike riding skills before riding the bike.


One only can get this far if the YJKYM, SLT/SNT basic got iron out clearly.






You're not DOING WCK unless you are fighting.

Again, the basic above is not even iron out yet. So, going this far is only add to the cofusion.

Why is that type of Fighting is call WCK instead of Hung Gar or CLF or Boxing or pentjat silat?






Practicing a form isn't DOING WCK -- it is practicing the movements in the air.


Practicing form is a part of WCK, it is not the Total of WCK. and one needs to know what is one doing and what is the reason of doing it and what result is expected and why .






Forms/sets don't develop anything. They are a really poor way of training.


If one cannot precisely answer the two simple beginer level questions as the above.

Then, is it the forms/sets? or those who mimic things without common sense?





Unfortunately, the ancient chinese had very little idea of how to teach or how people best learned.

That is your opinion. no comment.




Practicing forms is not the same thing as rolling or randori -- rolling and randori are forms of sparring.

Randori is not what I mean.

I mean basic "rolling" such as the basic "rolling" in the tatami practice one practice to prepare before Tomonage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so what do you call the "rolling" to prepare for the tomonage?

Those type of "rolling" is what I refer to.


Not sure what you are referring to, you don't roll to prepare for a tomoe-nage, you may roll as PART of the break fall off a tomoe-nage, but not really, not if it is done correctly.
You can roll on certain break falls as PART of the break fall, but to call a break fall a roll is liek saying that extending your arm is a punch.

[Hendrik]

QFT.

Hendrick, I do not believe we will ever see eye to eye on this.

Return to your ancient scrolls, the dead are whispering to you from across the ages.



Who is keep mentioning about ancient scrolls?

I Focus only on the two simple questions above.

[Edmund]

I mean basic "rolling" such as the basic "rolling" in the tatami practice one practice to prepare before Tomonage.

Forward Ukemi.

It's good practice to prepare to be thrown.

I don't know why SLT would be the WC equivalent.
Perhaps WC ukemi should be punching yourself in the face.

[Hendrik]

Not sure what you are referring to, you don't roll to prepare for a tomoe-nage, you may roll as PART of the break fall off a tomoe-nage, but not really, not if it is done correctly.

see, that " if it done correctly" is a big issue.


For me,
"Roll " and YJKYM/SLT/SNT are the basic bread and butter of the system they lead one to get comfortable on what one is going to do for further progress.

thus, the two questions above are very important.



so back to the basic two questions and anyone wants to take a bite at them? Basic WCK right?



what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you practice Wing Chun?

What is your main art of practice?



Who is keep mentioning about ancient scrolls?

I Focus only on the two simple questions above.

[Hendrik]

Do you practice Wing Chun?

I do SLT.




What is your main art of practice?

the art of dissolve oneself into nature

[sanjuro_ronin]

see, that " if it done correctly" is a big issue.


For me,
"Roll " and YJKYM/SLT/SNT are the basic bread and butter of the system they lead one to get comfortable on what one is going to do for further progress.

thus, the two questions above are very important.



so back to the basic two questions and anyone wants to take a bite at them? Basic WCK right?



what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?


what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?

I worry about you sometimes.

[m1k3]

I do SLT.




the art of dissolve oneself into nature


THIS explains a lot. Tofu and Koolaid.

[taai gihk yahn]

the art of dissolve oneself into nature


THIS explains a lot. Tofu and Koolaid.

well, as freak-a-doodle as it may sound, from a Taoist or Buddhist perspective, it's not as crunchy-granola as you may think; it refers to what might best be described as practicing "non-differentiation", or, in other words, seeing the big picture at the same time that one is caught up in the day-to-day struggles of one's life; it's like that whole "don't sweat the small stuff; and it's all small stuff" bit that was popular a while ago; so dissolving into nature is, in part, practicing a degree of equanimity towards all things: responding relatively dispassionately based on direct observation to what comes ones way, as opposed to knee-jerk reacting all the time based on one's habitual response patterns; again, not a big deal - Ch'an Buddhist practice spends most of its time cultivating this, Taoism does as well to a certain degree, albeit with a few more bells and whistles in terms of methodology; so, i think Hendrick, as is his wont, is waxing a bit literary here; at least that's my take on it...

[m1k3]

well, as freak-a-doodle as it may sound, from a Taoist or Buddhist perspective, it's not as crunchy-granola as you may think; it refers to what might best be described as practicing "non-differentiation", or, in other words, seeing the big picture at the same time that one is caught up in the day-to-day struggles of one's life; it's like that whole "don't sweat the small stuff; and it's all small stuff" bit that was popular a while ago; so dissolving into nature is, in part, practicing a degree of equanimity towards all things: responding relatively dispassionately based on direct observation to what comes ones way, as opposed to knee-jerk reacting all the time based on one's habitual response patterns; again, not a big deal - Ch'an Buddhist practice spends most of its time cultivating this, Taoism does as well to a certain degree, albeit with a few more bells and whistles in terms of methodology; so, i think Hendrick, as is his wont, is waxing a bit literary here; at least that's my take on it...

I have no problem with that. I managed to make it to 55, raise two daughters, have 4 grandchildren and all the other stuff that life brings and still remain somewhat centered. :)

But what does that have to do with Wing Chun. If you want to study Buddhism or Zen or Taoism or even witchcraft go for it. Martial Arts are for learning to fight or at least pretending to learn how to fight.

You can mix your philosophy with Wing Chun but don't make the mistake of seeing it as a requirement for Wing Chun. I am a bit of a history buff and have read enough to know that a lot of the old kung fu masters were mean nasty people who hung out at bars, beat people up, drank and did drugs. Hardly role models for anyone except maybe outlaw bikers.:eek:

[t_niehoff]

see, that " if it done correctly" is a big issue.


Yes, doing any physical skill "correctly' is important. And as I've repeatedly told you, you can only tell if a fighting skill is done "correctly" by and through fighting -- you can't tell if a fighting skill is done "correctly" by not fighting (you may believe you're doing it correctly and find out that it falls apart when fighting). That would be like trying to judge if you were doing a bike riding skill correctly (steering for instance) without riding the bike or a skiing skill without skiing -- it wouldn't make any sense.



For me,
"Roll " and YJKYM/SLT/SNT are the basic bread and butter of the system they lead one to get comfortable on what one is going to do for further progress.


Splendid -- you used the "magic words": 'for me' (for you). Thereby indicating this was ONLY your view, and not a pronouncement on behalf of WCK.



thus, the two questions above are very important.

so back to the basic two questions and anyone wants to take a bite at them? Basic WCK right?

what is the criterion or the attainment for you to know your YJKYM is proper? or What kind of result you need to attain in the beginer level?

what kind of result or attainment for you to know your SLT/SNT is practice properly in the beginer level?


I'll bite, but first say that I don't see things in terms of "beginner level".

For me, the YJKYM is essentially the body structure we need to be able to implement the WCK attached method of fighting which is to control an opponent while striking him (using the WCK tools). So your "attainment" is measured by how well you can contol an opponent while striking him.

[Yoshiyahu]

I do SLT.




the art of dissolve oneself into nature

Why do you do Sil Lim Tao?

[Hendrik]

............so, i think Hendrick, as is his wont, is waxing a bit literary here; at least that's my take on it...




a good song for those who knows chinese


http://media.webstv.net/m/777000


But then even those who knows chinese some might understand the song some might not, some might like it some might not.

[Hendrik]

Why do you do Sil Lim Tao?

Via the SLT finger one sees the moon.

[Hendrik]

I worry about you sometimes.



Thanks and appreciate.

[Hendrik]

You can mix your philosophy with Wing Chun but don't make the mistake of seeing it as a requirement for Wing Chun.


standing, moving, walking, jumping.....

What is philosophy? what is Wing Chun? what is mix? What is requirement?

[taai gihk yahn]

Via the SLT finger one sees the moon.

my taiji teacher has offered the explanation of the name / practice of SLT comes from Ch'an, relating to calming the discursive mind (seeing the moon)...he also has pointed out that it can refer to the physical action of the small (siu) circular wraping motion (nim) of the wrist / fist (the "tao" of the arm)...

[Hendrik]

For me, the YJKYM is essentially the body structure we need to be able to implement the WCK attached method of fighting which is to control an opponent while striking him (using the WCK tools).


Great


But please share your detail answer on the two entry level questions above.

Otherwise, what you say are just wishes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I did a google image search on SLT after Hendrick said he DID SLT, this is what I got:

[t_niehoff]

Great

But please share your detail answer on the two entry level questions above.

Otherwise, what you say are just wishes.

The details are ONLY found in the doing, in the performance itself -- this is what I keep telling you. This is because that body structure (the YJKYM) I'm talking about is dynamic, not static. Any description is of something fixed. You know you "have it" when you "have it".

Look, if you want to push a stalled automobile down the road, there is an optimum body structure (way of using your body or body mechanics) for doing that task. Can you learn that body structure by practicing a form? No. You ONLY really learn it by doing it -- by trying to push the stalled car and finding out how you can do it. Can I describe in detail how bent you knees must be? The angle of your torso? ETc.? No, because it is dynamic. You know when you "have it" when you can push the car up the road. Only through performance.

A boxer's body structure (body mechanics) is different than a wrestler's body structure (body mechanics) which is different than WCK body structure (YJKYM) because we are each trying to do different things (different tasks). You find the mechanics by starting with the TASK. As I said, for me that TASK is to control the opponent while striking him. How well I can do that task guides me in finding the body structure (the YJKYM). This is letting application be your sifu.

[Hendrik]

my taiji teacher has offered the explanation of the name / practice of SLT comes from Ch'an, relating to calming the discursive mind (seeing the moon)...he also has pointed out that it can refer to the physical action of the small (siu) circular wraping motion (nim) of the wrist / fist (the "tao" of the arm)...



another good song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn8Wj5O1Ghc

翻天覆地攜手浪逐浪　千杯不醉只醉月光
會心一笑不必講　對看一切都雪亮

[Hendrik]

The details are ONLY found in the doing, in the performance itself -- this is what I keep telling you.

This is because that body structure (the YJKYM) I'm talking about is dynamic, not static.

Any description is of something fixed.

You know you "have it" when you "have it".



Nope. it doesnt work this way.

Every human has a different face. But it certainly cant be the face of tiger.

Water is dynamic but it is not fire. water flow and fire burn

[Hendrik]

I did a google image search on SLT after Hendrick said he DID SLT, this is what I got:


Thanks



I like her better these days

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oPZTy5vkYY&feature=related


看 大江东去
浪花淘尽千古英雄
笑 指点江山
是非成败俱灰飞烟灭
此地一为别
青山旧 雨初歇 豪情却 向谁说

[t_niehoff]

another good song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn8Wj5O1Ghc

翻天覆地攜手浪逐浪　千杯不醉只醉月光
會心一笑不必講　對看一切都雪亮

I prefer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13UnVIDk93Q

[Hendrik]

I prefer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13UnVIDk93Q

you certainly have a different taste on music.

[t_niehoff]

Nope. it doesnt work this way.

Every human has a different face. But it certainly cant be the face of tiger.

Water is dynamic but it is not fire. water flow and fire burn

It ONLY works that way. Aristotle once said, "For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them." Physical skills are learned by and through actual performance.

Your analogies (fire/water) aren't valid.

[Hendrik]

It ONLY works that way. Aristotle once said, "For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them." Physical skills are learned by and through actual performance.

Your analogies (fire/water) aren't valid.

You are good in arguement. but arguement is not WCK.

by evidents on your post, you dont know indepth YJKYM that is forsure.

[t_niehoff]

You are good in arguement. but arguement is not WCK.

by evidents on your post, you dont know indepth YJKYM that is forsure.

MY WCK isn't too bad either. :)

That you talk about "know indepth YJKYM" tells me you don't see it for what it is (a physical skill) but as some academic subject that is knowledge-based (which it isn't). It isn't "indepth intellectual knowledge" that keeps the bike from falling over or keeps you from falling off your skis or allows you to control an opponent while striking him -- physical skills come from practicing the task at hand and can't be reduced to intellectual knowledge. You "get it" (being able to ride a bike, being able to ski, having body structure) when you "get it", and you "get it" through practicing the task.

What is the "process" for riding a bike? What is the "process" for being able to ski? Your body learns how to do these things by doing them. It is an unconscious process. As Helio said, "Learning jiujitsu is a subconscious process." It's the same with WCK.

[Hendrik]

In reality, a Dynamic system can be describe in term of state space .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_system

The two entry questions above are just very rough "state space."




Not to mention, if you cant describe what you do, that means you dont have the process, you cant repeat the act or body structure.

Thus, again, if one cant answer the two entry level questions above, that mean one doesnt have a good handling of what one is doing. or one doesnt know the dynamic system.



" Subconcious learning"? LOL

Isnt it you are the one want to exam every TCMA in term of Scientific?

now, explain you stuffs with Physics otherwise, you are fantasying.



you just jump from one "WCK religion " to another "BJJ religion" and thinking BJJ religion is scientific because you subsconciously now believe in BJJ religion.


again, until you can answer the two entry level question, your YJKYM training might not be even started yet. there goes your level of WCK.

[t_niehoff]

In reality, a Dynamic system can be describe in term of state space .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_system

The two entry questions above are just very rough "state space."


That has nothing to do with what we are talking about -- which is how to learn or develop dynamic physical skills.



Not to mention, if you cant describe what you do, that means you dont have the process, you cant repeat the act or body structure.

Thus, again, if one cant answer the two entry level questions above, that mean one doesnt have a good handling of what one is doing. or one doesnt know the dynamic system.


How to perform dynamic physical skills can't be described since the performance is ever-changing. How can you describe how to surf? How can you describe how to ride a bike? Or how to ski? These things are learned by doing them. And you can't intellectualize the process because the adjustments take place too quickly for the conscious mind.



Subcouncious? LOL
Isnt it you are the one want to exam every TCMA in term of Scientific? now, explain you stuffs with Physics otherwise, you are fantasying.

Well, that's what Helio thought. And it's what I know to be true.

Explain with physics? You're like the cartoon where the nerd tries to figure out how to sink the basketball through mathematical equations.

[Hendrik]

Well, that's what Helio thought. And it's what I know to be true.

Explain with physics? You're like the cartoon where the nerd tries to figure out how to sink the basketball through mathematical equations.



isnt it a double standard? where is your critical thinking mind and scientific method and proof which you always demand from TCMA?






that's what Helio thought. And it's what I know to be true.

hahaha, sure, religion. hahaha.




Even if I take your word,

Helio did BJJ not WCK.
and you might know BJJ but that is not equalvalent to know WCK.



See, without be able to clearly answer those two entry level questions, how can anyone know you even know YJKYM the most basic of WCK?

not to mention, my next question after you answer the two is can your YJKYM bring you to different brain wave state? measurement....etc. hahaha.

better to be scientific proven.

See, you ask for Scientific and critical thinking now we got the machine and process to do double blind test.

yes, it is a physical skill on generating power in various way depend on acceleration needes, to direct force flow; and enter different brain wave state at will.

The very basic WCK requirement in a scientific process where everyone can train in and get result and it is just following step by step instruction from the ancient ancestor of WCK.

And those are just basic stuffs not even fighting yet. You see, that is how far it can go if one knows the basic in details?

[punchdrunk]

I appreciate you comparing wing chun to surfing or cycling, so many analogies are made that are totally off track but that one is simple and makes sense. It would help a lot of people understand wing chun more if they just used it more often, instead of training in it and imagining what it is for. A lot of chi bubbles need popping out there.

[punchdrunk]

the answers to Hendriks 2 questions obviously vary from school to school, as such there can be no official answer to use to look down on others for. Even if an answer is in his schools kuen kuit they are not universal to all schools.
Is wing chun scientific? Is BJJ? How about MMA? Depends on the approach taken by the practicioner, are they testing and comparing their ideas and results? Or just going by what others have said. No physics description or fancy machines are necessary to scientificly study some things especially simple personal things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that people forget that, as humans, everything we do is in the realm of biomechanics, simply because human motion is just that, human motion.

[Hardwork108]

by evidents on your post, you dont know indepth YJKYM that is forsure.
I could have told you that about Niehoff (and Sanuro ronin) 2 years ago. :)

[Hardwork108]

I think that people forget that, as humans, everything we do is in the realm of biomechanics, simply because human motion is just that, human motion.

You have missed the point (yet again)!

Furthermore, during what phase of your 30 year martial arts "experience" did you come to realize the above (and obvious) fact?

[Hendrik]

the answers to Hendriks 2 questions obviously vary from school to school,

as such there can be no official answer to use to look down on others for.

Even if an answer is in his schools kuen kuit they are not universal to all schools.



It is independent to School or official or .....

lets everyone answer them
and see if the answer making sense in supporting pragmatic human mechanics and deliver the result for who ever train the basic stuffs.


Now, what is your answer? care to share?

[Hendrik]

I think that people forget that, as humans, everything we do is in the realm of biomechanics, simply because human motion is just that, human motion.

Ok, so answer that two basic question on what the result in Biomechanics you gain or achieve?

[punchdrunk]

Hendrik says his questions are independant of school or official.. then why is YJKYM so different from school to school? Some systems don't even have YJKYM how would they answer his question? He is obvoiusly looking for specific answers and if anyone wastes their time answering he will say they are of a low level. Gotta love the forum sometimes, it's the chi'ziest place around.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik says his questions are independant of school or official.. then why is YJKYM so different from school to school?

Some systems don't even have YJKYM how would they answer his question?
.

How would one do SLT without YJKYM? and without YJKYM is it still WCK?

[punchdrunk]

here is Pan Nam wing chun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwaC7gJJLF4
SLT with no YJKYM.
Is that wing chun? Labels are useless to argue, better to come to an agreement so useful communication can occur.

[Hendrik]

here is Pan Nam wing chun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwaC7gJJLF4
SLT with no YJKYM.

Is that wing chun? Labels are useless to argue, better to come to an agreement so useful communication can occur.


If Late GM Pan Nam is here. I would ask him the same two questions.

since he is not here, lets not get into others business.

Now, what is your answer for that two questions for yourself ?

[Yoshiyahu]

here is Pan Nam wing chun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwaC7gJJLF4
SLT with no YJKYM.
Is that wing chun? Labels are useless to argue, better to come to an agreement so useful communication can occur.

Now why did you even answer his question...you got more rambling an now he feels even more sure of himself than ever before. Atleast he didnt tell you to baisi the answer...ha ha...your consider low level now punchdrunk for answering hendrik question?

[punchdrunk]

Read the previous posts for my reply. Here's a great one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV6noHEd6XE :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Read the previous posts for my reply. Here's a great one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV6noHEd6XE :)


Ha Ha just messing with you.

[punchdrunk]

my low level rocks!

[Hendrik]

Two very simple questions but none answer it directly and clearly.

it is not about right or wrong. it is not about universal standard.

It is a sad song.
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr621o9iZ5I


Do you know where you're going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know...?

Do you get
What you're hoping for
When you look behind you
There's no open doors
What are you hoping for?
Do you know...?

Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds....



Now looking back at all we've planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long
Before we'll see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be....

[punchdrunk]

classic song... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzocrN1zUE8

[Yoshiyahu]

Question does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

Also does it mention side kick or dan chi sau or chi gerk?



Two very simple questions but none answer it directly and clearly.

it is not about right or wrong. it is not about universal standard.

It is a sad song.
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr621o9iZ5I


Do you know where you're going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know...?

Do you get
What you're hoping for
When you look behind you
There's no open doors
What are you hoping for?
Do you know...?

Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds....



Now looking back at all we've planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long
Before we'll see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be....

[Hendrik]

Question does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

Also does it mention side kick or dan chi sau or chi gerk?



With all your wonderful ideas on Rooting....etc and qoute and lists..


what confident do you have to face the following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


0%?
10%
50%
80%
100%

[Yoshiyahu]

Before I answer your percentage question answer my questions concerning the Kuen Kuit??????

Or you advoiding answering my question on purpose?

If not read the following post?


Question does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

Also does it mention side kick or dan chi sau or chi gerk?



With all your wonderful ideas on Rooting....etc and qoute and lists..


what confident do you have to face the following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


0%?
10%
50%
80%
100%

[Hendrik]

Before I answer your percentage question answer my questions concerning the Kuen Kuit??????

Or you advoiding answering my question on purpose?

If not read the following post?


Am I avoiding answering your question?

Since I am here in this forum, I am looking for those who knows the "music" to ask me extremely question based on thier "musical" experience. That will be super fun and super satisfying.


I dont like laundry list,
Do you have some kuen kuit which could raise my passion?
make my day.


In the mean time, since I have not seen you have any, look at the clip I post and tell me how far or long you could sustain. That would be much much much more interesting and evoke my passion. not to mention, that is realistic too.

[Yoshiyahu]

Question does the Kuen Kuit mention dan chi sau or chi gerk?

as for the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


i seen it awhile ago maybe two years ago or so...it appears kung fu sucks..

[Hendrik]

Question does the Kuen Kuit mention dan chi sau or chi gerk?

ask those who make up this question or give you this.
asking me is asking a wrong person.





as for the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


i seen it awhile ago maybe two years ago or so...it appears kung fu sucks..


The question is how is your so called WCK Rooting can handle this? Since you believe in Rooting....etc. what is the bottom line?

[LSWCTN1]

Question does the Kuen Kuit mention Fajin?

Also does it mention side kick or dan chi sau or chi gerk?

as far as i know, chi geuk was an embellishment on the techniques taught. kind of like the forms are an embellishment to san sik movements.

i believe Yip Mans earlier student made the exercise up. could be wrong

i also believe that dan chi is a more recent adding to the system - again i could be wrong.

anyway... isnt the kuen kuit just one persons expression of the art passed from a teacher to student?

i know there are some more classical kuen kuit, but many of them are from recent times

[hunt1]

Funny thing is the stance Royce is using is essentially the same as wing chun including the use of what we would call a man sau. This is the basic fighting stance and method one learns once you learn to apply the pole empty handed.

For Hendrick ,what some call rooting is not meant to be strong roots into the earth like a tree with. I don't think rooting is even the right thing to call it because of the image and connotations it brings up in the western mind. Wing chun is to be supple,flowing and flexible not firm ,fixed ,stiff or hard

[m1k3]

Funny thing is the stance Royce is using is essentially the same as wing chun including the use of what we would call a man sau. This is the basic fighting stance and method one learns once you learn to apply the pole empty handed.

For Hendrick ,what some call rooting is not meant to be strong roots into the earth like a tree with. I don't think rooting is even the right thing to call it because of the image and connotations it brings up in the western mind. Wing chun is to be supple,flowing and flexible not firm ,fixed ,stiff or hard

If you think of dance or running and look at photographs of people doing those activities you would could look at each photograph and say she is in the on toes stance or he is in the explosive forward leaning stance.

If you look at the same activities as movies you don't see stances, you see the activity as a whole and the flow of the athlete from position to position as part of a single activity and the stances disappear.

The same applies to any martial art even wing chun. At least that was how I was taught.

[Yoshiyahu]

The question is how is your so called WCK Rooting can handle this? Since you believe in Rooting....etc. what is the bottom line?

If your doing real Wing Chun the idea is to protect your center line. Why stand there to take a hit or takedown. Simply shift your center line or move out of the path of force. Traditional Wing Chun would borrow the energy or an deflect power away from ones Centerline. Not stand flat footed waiting for some one to grab them. If they can get their hands around your waist that means your center line is unprotected and if that be the case are you really doing Wing Chun?

Not even Tai Chi fighters or Tiger Fighters with strong roots stand there an let someone grab them for a take down. Both will elude their attacker and redirect their energy. But the key is this. Are you skilled enough to turn off that force. If not then you will be taking down no matter how strong your root is.

Even if you have a strong root. If I punch you in the nose first an then sweep your legs your going down. If I hit you in the nose hard enough your going to come up out of that stance. An then you can be uprooted, swept or taking down.

The purpose in Wing Chun for a root is body to arm connection. If you have strong root in YGKYM then with your Tan, Pak, Bong or Man Sau you can turn off force alot easier. With a Solid YGKYM you can punch your way around a strong bridge. With a strong foundation you can withstand a strong powerful attack in order to turn the force off an use it.

Crane works on their root. Wing Chun root should be similiar to a crane. But a crane is elusive an doesn't stand in one place does it?

Hendrik are you familiar with White Crane root training?

[MrQuickstep]

We all root...Rooting to me is the alignment of one's body structure to project and or absorb power. Once you can strike and or block a strike without losing your structure (falling forward, backward and sideward.) you were just rooted.

A better question is to ask is "Can you root when it's needed and stop when it's not?".

Why do some martial artists all ways think in absolutes...

We're not always going to get what we want, we can't always evade, defend a strike, not get cut, not get taken to the ground...thats why we need to be familiar with every range of combat.

If things were so simple like not letting the enemy strike you, grab you, take you down to the ground then all you would need in wing chun is a straight punch because using anything else would mean you had to change your tactics and you would only change your tactics if things didn't go the way you want.

Just Saying...

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent observation. Your Gung Fu is highly level than most. Great....thanks for sharing...



We all root...Rooting to me is the alignment of one's body structure to project and or absorb power. Once you can strike and or block a strike without losing your structure (falling forward, backward and sideward.) you were just rooted.

A better question is to ask is "Can you root when it's need and stop when it's not?".

[Hendrik]

If your doing real Wing Chun the idea is to protect your center line. Why stand there to take a hit or takedown.


Simply shift your center line or move out of the path of force.

Traditional Wing Chun would borrow the energy or an deflect power away from ones Centerline.

Not stand flat footed waiting for some one to grab them. If they can get their hands around your waist that means your center line is unprotected and if that be the case are you really doing Wing Chun?




Is it so? ask those who has experienced it and let them tell you what is going on.

or perhaps, most think like you but then they got take down.


Terence are you here? want to give them some reality check?

[Hendrik]

If things were so simple like not letting the enemy strike you, grab you, take you down to the ground then all you would need in wing chun is a straight punch because using anything else would mean you had to change your tactics and you would only change your tactics if things didn't go the way you want.



yup, is it that simple?

[Edmund]

Is it so? ask those who has experienced it and let them tell you what is going on.

or perhaps, most think like you but then they got take down.


Terence are you here? want to give them some reality check?

So NOW you want a reality check?

Here you go? Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM_F83qdB4U

[Yoshiyahu]

I think Terrence will be giving you a reality check...I believe he would say to yo Hendrik go a fight with your quasi theories an show us how well you do.


you may not always be able to advoid being knocked out by a skilled boxer, submitted by a skilled wrestler, joint locked by skilled chin na fighter or even uproorted by skilled tai chi fighter. But practicing WC does give you options. At best practice fighting learn the counters. An drill the heck out them an spar so more both heavy and light to refine your technique an learn how to defeat various styles..

Hendrik do you spar?



Is it so? ask those who has experienced it and let them tell you what is going on.

or perhaps, most think like you but then they got take down.


Terence are you here? want to give them some reality check?

[Hendrik]

I think Terrence will be giving you a reality check...I believe he would say to yo Hendrik go a fight with your quasi theories an show us how well you do.


you may not always be able to advoid being knocked out by a skilled boxer, submitted by a skilled wrestler, joint locked by skilled chin na fighter or even uproorted by skilled tai chi fighter. But practicing WC does give you options.

At best practice fighting learn the counters. An drill the heck out them an spar so more both heavy and light to refine your technique an learn how to defeat various styles..


Hendrik do you spar?


I am a Kyokushin, so, no quasi theories. but Kyokushin way. and I dont spar also.

I am asking question here but get no direct answer. Could you please answer the rooting question I post to you since you are the expert.

[Hendrik]

Funny thing is the stance Royce is using is essentially the same as wing chun including the use of what we would call a man sau. This is the basic fighting stance and method one learns once you learn to apply the pole empty handed.

For Hendrick ,what some call rooting is not meant to be strong roots into the earth like a tree with. I don't think rooting is even the right thing to call it because of the image and connotations it brings up in the western mind. Wing chun is to be supple,flowing and flexible not firm ,fixed ,stiff or hard



There sure more to it then most take it.

IMHO
That Rooting most thinking is the jewel or give them power.....etc are actually the poison for them to loosing thier ground before the take down. But most has no clue.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

I train my root, totally believe in it. But i also train What If's

What if's are:

What if i get blindsided and i fall to the ground?
What if the opponent is so strong he uproots me?
What if i hit him multiple times and he still uproots me?

i train the ground game because its there. We have the ability to go to the ground. If you could fight while flying in the air, id train that too. If anyone wants to spar while skydiving give me a call.

round ball rolls easier than a square block, dont get boxed in.

i love this one liner:

adapt or die.