I gotta question for this forum

[hskwarrior]

if you had the opportunity to join the Hung Mun these days would you? or wouldn't you?

Pls list your reasons for and against.

[David Jamieson]

no.

i don't believe in secret societies. I think that they are fundamentally wrong.

[hskwarrior]

why?

and if they are working with and for the community....doesn't that make a difference?

[chusauli]

Do you want to restore the Ming to the throne? :)

[David Jamieson]

why?

and if they are working with and for the community....doesn't that make a difference?

the problem with secret societies is that outwardly they do good things, but on the back of the hand, not so much all the time.

community service groups should be 100% transparent and open to all from the front door to the back.

It's my world view. :)

[hskwarrior]

yes, we are trying to restore the ming........but just not today. :)

[Ben Gash]

The late Ming were corrupt and ineffectual, and were brought down by internal strife, not the invading Qing. Chongzhen, the last Ming emperor hanged himself from a tree outside Beijing, having ordered his entire family to commit suicide following the fall of the city to the peasant rebel Li Zhicheng. The Chinese army then allied itself with the Manchu to defeat the rebel army, thus leading to the founding of the Qing dynasty.
So A) there was no Ming dynasty left to restore, and B) it wasn't the Qing's fault anyway.

[lkfmdc]

NO, I am not the least bit interested in hung men

But if Frank is, more power to him

(must be a San Francisco thing)

:D

[hskwarrior]

Ben, I'm not that old, so i don't remember that far back :rolleyes:

and ross, that's your bad for your type-o, or freudian slip.....but we're not looking for hung men........they've already been hung!!!!!! :D

oh, and ross.....let's not forget that east coast has more flamboyant "Hung Men" than SF.

[Violent Designs]

The late Ming were corrupt and ineffectual, and were brought down by internal strife, not the invading Qing. Chongzhen, the last Ming emperor hanged himself from a tree outside Beijing, having ordered his entire family to commit suicide following the fall of the city to the peasant rebel Li Zhicheng. The Chinese army then allied itself with the Manchu to defeat the rebel army, thus leading to the founding of the Qing dynasty.
So A) there was no Ming dynasty left to restore, and B) it wasn't the Qing's fault anyway.

I would rep you for that if i could.

[firepalm]

Not the one in Vancouver or Toronto for that matter, bunch of freaking wankers! :eek:

[Fei Li]

It is outdated.

[hskwarrior]

can you explain what it means by the Hung Mun is outdated?

[AdrianK]

Do you want to restore the Ming to the throne? :)

LOL! That was good. :)

[hskwarrior]

it was?:confused::confused::confused:

[iron_silk]

From what I heard the societies back then really helped the new immigrants who didn't know anybody or had anything...they would help set them up with places to work, to live, and if anything happened to them a burial when necessary.

But nowadays it's more about people vying for power/control of the society and money for their own selfish uses. It's so odd but it's like they live in their own little world.

[David Jamieson]

From what I heard the societies back then really helped the new immigrants who didn't know anybody or had anything...they would help set them up with places to work, to live, and if anything happened to them a burial when necessary.

But nowadays it's more about people vying for power/control of the society and money for their own selfish uses. It's so odd but it's like they live in their own little world.

the filial associations were like this, and to a smaller extent the other tongs.

[Fei Li]

From what I heard the societies back then really helped the new immigrants who didn't know anybody or had anything...they would help set them up with places to work, to live, and if anything happened to them a burial when necessary.

But nowadays it's more about people vying for power/control of the society and money for their own selfish uses. It's so odd but it's like they live in their own little world.

This is what I meant by outdated, the circumstances changed and the original purpose
is not existing anylonger.

[bawang]

its better to restore moral and spirit of ming than the actal empire
restoring old style government changes nothing people are still bad inside today

[David Jamieson]

its better to restore moral and spirit of ming than the actal empire
restoring old style government changes nothing people are still bad inside today

I think ethics and morality philosophies today are more advanced than those of the 1600's so there's no point to even restoring that.

It would be like bringing back teh horse and buggy instead of advancing hydrogen fuel cell technology.

future generations will look back on us as primitive and stupid by their standards. It's a good thing to keep in mind as we wish for the past. :)

[SimonM]

I was invited to join the Freemasons at one point. I had to turn down the offer because I am an athiest and thus don't believe in a higher power - about the only thing that makes a guy inelligible to join.

I share the expressed opinion of many that the late Ming dynasty was a corrupt and ineffective government that had to fall so if the restoration therein is in fact still an objective of the Hung Men I would have to say no.

However I am not, in principle, opposed to joining a secular fraternal organization committed to public works.

[hskwarrior]

The Hung Mun of today are not a political entity. It's primary focus is on the chinese people and the community. However, in San Francisco, the Hung Mun is opening its doors, and coming out of secrecy. They are still Chinese Freemasons, and work toward a goal of good for of the people now. What they started out as, has been long forgotten.

Still, Raymond Chow, the Dragon Head of the Hung Mun is reviving alot of the old traditions of the society, and is allowing in non chinese at this point.

For myself, the Hung Mun in San Francisco is special since it was founded by The Green Grass Monk of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon lineage. and my Hung Sing lineage is still active here in america, as it once had been back in fut san.

[iron_silk]

The restoration of Ming real purpose wasn't because Ming was so great as much of the fact that it was race issue. Better the devil you know. Why be ruled by people that is not even your own.

The people of Qing Dynasty were Manchu's (an ethnic minority of Chinese).

That's why we have famous book by Jin Yong "Duke of Deer Mountain" where the main character questions the restoration of Ming Dynasty if the emperor of Qing Dynasty (although not Han) was a good ruler.

[SimonM]

The qing had some very good rulers...

and some very bad rulers.

Therein lies the problem with hereditary rule.

[bawang]

I think ethics and morality philosophies today are more advanced than those of the 1600's so there's no point to even restoring that.

It would be like bringing back teh horse and buggy instead of advancing hydrogen fuel cell technology.

future generations will look back on us as primitive and stupid by their standards. It's a good thing to keep in mind as we wish for the past. :)

i think you are wrong
theres not brotherhood no honor in today society everywhere
and i think todays is more primitive than past because people today live on instinct annd dos whatever they want

it wil be no point to restore ming government, qing was defecated 100 years ago. now its not a physical battle, its a mental and spiritual battle to change attitudes and minds of chinese people

[David Jamieson]

i think you are wrong
theres not brotherhood no honor in today society everywhere
and i think todays is more primitive than past because people today live on instinct annd dos whatever they want

it wil be no point to restore ming government, qing was defecated 100 years ago. now its not a physical battle, its a mental and spiritual battle to change attitudes and minds of chinese people

maybe you look in the wrong places?
as for being about the chinese people and they're community.

well I'm not chinese. I appreciate chinese culture, but nevertheless I am never going to be a chinese myself and under the terms of a society that focuses on that, I will never fit in and would serve as some form of bridge token to maintain a white face for the organization.

On top of the whole secret society thing, I am definitely not interested in that action at all. It's like another iteration of exclusiveness.

Brotherhood and honor is built among people. It's not just some natural state of things that has fallen away. You have to work at it. Be brotherly, be positive, act in positive ways and do honorable things in all areas of your life.

It helps your kungfu too. If it's all about being served and made comfortable, then that is a pointless waste of time because that is tantamount to coddling and furthermore the perpetuation of wilfull ignorance on the part of the people taking part in such a way.

no wool for my eyes please :) I'll do the work to see to it that my responsibilities to my family, friends, society and country are met.

[once ronin]

The Chinese Freemason at one time had good a measure. Enough for them to have a strong voice in the US goverment (the Sun Yat Sen issue).

Since they have not shown to practice and be measured they have lost alot esteem.

They have more to offer than one thinks and it has nothing to do with the Ming restoral or Ching spitting.

Follow the original teachings of Hung Moon and you will be held in high esteem.

[hskwarrior]

I will never fit in and would serve as some form of bridge token to maintain a white face for the organization.

As a matter of FACT, I am that WHITE face.......For that organization. And i am in direct contact with the Dragon Head........within the Hung Mun, i will tell you, under the NEW Dragon Head, the Hung Mun is broadening its perspective so to speak, and is allowing NON CHINESE into their family.........

However, for myself, I am proud to be a member, not forgetting a RANKING member, because one of the founders of the Hung Mun was the teacher to the founder of my lineage (Jeung Hung Sing). So, in that respect, I get to continue on the tradition between the Hung Sing Kwoon and the Hung Mun now without having to be Chinese. This has paved the road for my sifu's students as well as my own who also may wish to carry on the tradition of joining the Hung Mun.

[hskwarrior]

Once Ronin,

who is your mother? :D

[Drake]

I think the important question is...














Do you get a secret decoder ring? :D

[once ronin]

Which one?

I have 2.

[once ronin]

????????????????????