How to defeat a SKILLED knife fighter who's out for your a**?

[MrQuickstep]

How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?

I was watching some knife fighting videos on youtube then the thought came to me "What the hell would I do in that situation?", " Thrust a guard out and have it cut to ribbons!...no I'd shorten my guard and my blocks (I know theres no blocks in wing chun- maybe my defensive hand techniques :confused:) then I'd perform some sort of limb destruction to immobilize the weapon then I turn and take out my opponent.

By the way the attacker is SKILLED! like an EVIL GURO DAN INOSANTO!!!! :( theres no one stab to guts but a million and one slashes).

1.What would you do?

2.Can you shorten your guard? And what happens to the immoveable elbow theory?

3.Does anyone practice limb destruction in there wing chun (nerves, muscles, joints)?

4.What about your footwork? Is it alive enough for this kind off situation?

5.What drills do you think would help? It can could from any art once you mod it to use wing chun concepts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah dude, if a guy has a knife and knows how to use it, you're a carved turkey, period.
Unless you have a knife/weapon and are BETTER than your attacker.
Unarmed VS a knife?
Versus a guy that KNOWS how to use it and WANTS to kill you?
Ah dude....

[MrQuickstep]

Well I understand what you're saying sanjuro but what if you have no choice, you have nowhere to run, your wife and kids are here, what do you do? Raise your hands and say "kill me quick!"? You have to try something...at least if you want you and your family to live.

Now go back and write something a little more helpful...I've read your posts you're brilliant when you want to be(still not knocking what you said before...its true!).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well I understand what you're saying sanjuro but what if you have no choice, you have nowhere to run, your wife and kids are here, what do you do? Raise your hands and say "kill me quick!"? You have to try something...at least if you want you and your family to live.

Now go back and write something a little more helpful...I've read your posts you're brilliant when you want to be(still not knocking what you said before...its true!).

Hey, no one said anything about folding into the fetal position !
:D
But lets be truthful here, the first thing you need to accept is that, IF you are unarmed VS someone that knows how to use a knife and wants to kill you, you are ****ed.
Now, having accepted that, what do we do?
Take the ****er with us.
Now that we have established the correct mentality, what do we do?

My suggestions is to get a hold of the Die Less Often series by the Dog Brothers, it will open your eyes to many things.

After that...look, I have gone up against a knife when I was unarmed, and the times it has happened I was lucky that the people where either to drunk to know what they were doing or that I got the jump on them and took them out and found out AFTER that it was a knife that he was reaching for.

Understand this, a trained knife fighter will kill you before you even know what is going on, the best you can hope for is to "SEE" what is gonna happen before it gets to that.

[Paul T England]

depends on your skills set and what is involved...

give him your money

keep your distance until he gets bored or tired

maintain control over the knife arm and persons body structure

go ape on him and be prepared to die in the process

there is no answer, be prepared to get cut and lets be thankful that the number of skilled knife fighters is still low and those with the skills don't generally go around attacking people!!!!

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Paul T England]

Good advice I have been given is train with the assumption that the attacker has a blade.

Your empty hand skills should still help you...

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Pork Chop]

How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?
....

1.What would you do?



pray I don't bleed out before help arrives...

[jmd161]

Funny we went over this same scenario while training with my sifu two weeks ago. A friend of mine who's a 4th dan in Shotokan karate and brown belt in BJJ had learned all these knife defenses for yrs and believed he could disarm a attacker with a knife. Well, I know from my early days with sifu that he is very skilled with a knife... You do see where this is going right?:D


Just so happens one of our training brothers carries around his Chinese daggers and other knives along with a rubber training knife. Well it didn't take long to find out that...If you're unarmed against a skilled knife wielding attacker " You're Dead!!! :eek:


My friend tried everything he was ever taught about knife defense, and learned it would result in you getting carved up like a turkey the day after Thanksgiving.:p

Like sifu says the best you can do is try and keep distance between the person and yourself. If you do have to in gauge them, you have to let them move first and look for a chance to attack and go for the kill!!!

You have to have the intent to kill, and hope and pray for the best.


jeff:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look at it this way, its hard enough to beat someone WITHOUT a knife, much less with one, even much less with a knife and KNOWING how to use it.

[t_niehoff]

Look at it this way, its hard enough to beat someone WITHOUT a knife, much less with one, even much less with a knife and KNOWING how to use it.

Yup. And that goes for multiple opponents, etc.

[couch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

Scary stuff. Guys can't even get their guns drawn to fire back.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

Scary stuff. Guys can't even get their guns drawn to fire back.

A must have my friend, a must have.

[chusauli]

Unless you have a weapon and skilled with it, I'd say run and make space - throw obstacles in the way, and get away.

Even trained with a firearm, in less than 20 feet, you are at serious disadvantage.

[dnovice]

run and show him your ass... He will surely die of humiliation.:D

[Egg fu young]

I can't get youtube at work but I remember in one of my L.E. academies watching a set of video's that basically left me with the impression "your screwed" the Officer couldn't draw as fast as the knife guy could close distance. So instead of tactical fire drills I guess wind sprints is a better use of time.

[taai gihk yahn]

against an unskilled opponent, it's hard enough, especially as the opponent will often move unpredictably and attack you "wrong", LOL, but if you have been well-trained to deal with your own adrenaline response, you stand at least a chance if you use everything available to you (environmental layout, improvised weapons, etc.) in a tactically organized manner; and we have all seen video evidence of people stabbed multiple times by enraged, yet tactically disorganized assailants who have survived; so again, randomness seems to be the watchword - as a trained fighter, your goal is to limit that randomness and try to take as much control of the situation overall as possible

now, take that tactical mindset and give it to your knife wielding opponent as well: well, you're basically fu(ked, because unlike the amateur knife wielding psycho, he'll go for target selection, and will set you up to get it (e.g. - distracting you with his empty hand with the knife as the hidden, follow-up attack); I guess that the answer is to carry your own blade (or similar ranged weapon such as a telescopic baton) and wear body armor at all times (or at least leather wrist bands, gloves and jacket - good leather can be effective turning a blade to varying degrees, at least more than a t-shirt); of course, this is if you live the kind of life where this sort of scenario is a concern to you - if it's not, the one advantage is that the chances of you randomly coming up against a trained knife fighter are probably pretty slim to none...

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Anyone who trains with a knife in a realistic situation will have been cut and expect to be cut. No matter how skilled one is with empty hands or even with a blade, when facing someone else with a blade it is most likely both will be cut.

If one is to survive an edged weapon encounter then one must accept that they will be cut. You must mentally prepare yourself for the fact your will be injured and be ready to fight on no matter what. For most the shock of being cut is what stops them, they are unprepared for seeing their own blood and fighting through the pain. Unfortunately, there are few options for preparing to fight after one has really been cut so it is impossible to predict how one will respond in a real situation. All one can do is train as best they can, but IMHO spend as much or more time on mental preparation and visualizing being cut and still fighting on no matter what.

The video seen in many LE training classes is titled "Surviving Edged Weapons". It featured Dan Inosonto (sp?) as well as Tuhon Leo Gaje. What the video showed is that if a knife weilding attacker is within 21 feet it is highly unlikely that an officer will be able to draw and fire 2-3 times before he is cut. In some instances both the attacker and the officer will both be injured for real, but the point being that the knife weilder will most likely reach and strike the officer. The 21 feet is seen as the minimal safe distance for facing an attacker armed with an edged weapon which will allow the drawing and firing of a holstered weapon.

On another note, slashes, while deadly, rarely result in death. The more dangerous is the stab, even if it does not appear to be bleeding much, as in many cases the bleeding is internal. Also, a small blade is all that is needed to penetrate to most vital targets, 3" is more than sufficient to kill.

One technique which is particularily dangerous is commonly referred to P'Kal and involves catching the limb with the blade down. If this is successful then the opponent will further injure themselves if they attempt to pull away. Of course the one with the knife can also pull the blade towards themselves as well.

A skilled knife fighter will be able to manuever the blade with a speed and flow akin to Chi Sau. If blocked they will redirect to another target.

All in all better to avoid if at all possible. If not, expect to get cut and have to fight on. FWIW one technique taught to me in the military involved taking a cut\slash on the outside of the forearm in order to get close enough to deliver a killing blow. Not saying this is such a good idea, but it does stress the reality of being cut in a real fight.

Oh, not to be picky, but the chances of coming up against a skilled knife fighter are pretty good, imho. Anyone who has been to prison or grown up on the streets will most likely be pretty proficient with using a blade.

As I like to tell my students, when I used to teach, "I cheat". Rest assured that those you encounter on the street will also "cheat". It is highly probable that you will not even see the first strike but jus feel the results. If you are not ready for that mentally then you will most likely not survive. Also, even if you survive you may be maimed in some way. :(

[dnovice]

nice post sihin.

[anerlich]

Good advice I have been given is train with the assumption that the attacker has a blade.

Your empty hand skills should still help you...


Only up to a, er, point.

Many of the bread and butter WC defenses against empty hand attacks will get your forearms sliced to ribbons if the attacker has a knife. The knife guy would love you to try to bridge and stick to his knife arm.

Sihing73's post was on the money.

www.florofighting.com has some pretty good material regarding blades and their use and defense.

[LSWCTN1]

a friend of mine had to deal with this situation once

he could have got away, but pride got the better of him.

it happened during a 'break' in fighting. this is one of the reasons why i think sparring is not the be-all-and-end-all. real fights break and come back together again - as such, IMHO practising entry drills can be almost as important as sparring.

anyway....

as there was no way on earth my friend was going to walk away, he took his tshirt off and wrapped it around his hand/forearm and used this to jab his way in and eventually got to the outside of the attacker and choked him RIGHT out. he had studied a bit of boxing and was a very good street fighter. he hailed from Afghanistan and to him knife encounters and fighting were an everyday thing that didnt phase him as much as it would us.

in essence what im trying to say is that you need to use your environment, you need to be carefull and not let pride get in the way. you need to get used to defending a blade against random encounters - not set 1,2,3 drills in the classroom.

i personally wouldn't have a clue iwhat to do until it actually happened - sometimes to spend time practising against someone skilled could be detrimental, as someone said earlier - on the street they will almost always be untrained and completely random

[LSWCTN1]

just thought too

if someone is going to stab you, they will very rarely show you they have a knife

unless you are being mugged then 90% of the time that you are threatened with a weapon it is probably just to sh!t you up. if someone had upset you would you give them warnin... 'in precisely 2minutes and 36 seconds i will punch you'.. no you wouldnt. you wouldnt give them the warning

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello,

Anyone who trains with a knife in a realistic situation will have been cut and expect to be cut. No matter how skilled one is with empty hands or even with a blade, when facing someone else with a blade it is most likely both will be cut.

If one is to survive an edged weapon encounter then one must accept that they will be cut. You must mentally prepare yourself for the fact your will be injured and be ready to fight on no matter what. For most the shock of being cut is what stops them, they are unprepared for seeing their own blood and fighting through the pain. Unfortunately, there are few options for preparing to fight after one has really been cut so it is impossible to predict how one will respond in a real situation. All one can do is train as best they can, but IMHO spend as much or more time on mental preparation and visualizing being cut and still fighting on no matter what.

The video seen in many LE training classes is titled "Surviving Edged Weapons". It featured Dan Inosonto (sp?) as well as Tuhon Leo Gaje. What the video showed is that if a knife weilding attacker is within 21 feet it is highly unlikely that an officer will be able to draw and fire 2-3 times before he is cut. In some instances both the attacker and the officer will both be injured for real, but the point being that the knife weilder will most likely reach and strike the officer. The 21 feet is seen as the minimal safe distance for facing an attacker armed with an edged weapon which will allow the drawing and firing of a holstered weapon.

On another note, slashes, while deadly, rarely result in death. The more dangerous is the stab, even if it does not appear to be bleeding much, as in many cases the bleeding is internal. Also, a small blade is all that is needed to penetrate to most vital targets, 3" is more than sufficient to kill.

One technique which is particularily dangerous is commonly referred to P'Kal and involves catching the limb with the blade down. If this is successful then the opponent will further injure themselves if they attempt to pull away. Of course the one with the knife can also pull the blade towards themselves as well.

A skilled knife fighter will be able to manuever the blade with a speed and flow akin to Chi Sau. If blocked they will redirect to another target.

All in all better to avoid if at all possible. If not, expect to get cut and have to fight on. FWIW one technique taught to me in the military involved taking a cut\slash on the outside of the forearm in order to get close enough to deliver a killing blow. Not saying this is such a good idea, but it does stress the reality of being cut in a real fight.

Oh, not to be picky, but the chances of coming up against a skilled knife fighter are pretty good, imho. Anyone who has been to prison or grown up on the streets will most likely be pretty proficient with using a blade.

As I like to tell my students, when I used to teach, "I cheat". Rest assured that those you encounter on the street will also "cheat". It is highly probable that you will not even see the first strike but jus feel the results. If you are not ready for that mentally then you will most likely not survive. Also, even if you survive you may be maimed in some way. :(

Well said on all points.
I will add that, because stabs are indeed so deadly and, lets face it, require less skill than slashes to be deadly, the prison "sewing machine" attack ( as some like to call it) is one of the most dangerous and effective attacks used, even by well trained knife fighters.
Think of repeated thrusts and stabs in conjunction with strikes or grabs with the free hand, in a "sewing machine" or "machine gun fashion".

[jmd161]

Well said on all points.
I will add that, because stabs are indeed so deadly and, lets face it, require less skill than slashes to be deadly, the prison "sewing machine" attack ( as some like to call it) is one of the most dangerous and effective attacks used, even by well trained knife fighters.
Think of repeated thrusts and stabs in conjunction with strikes or grabs with the free hand, in a "sewing machine" or "machine gun fashion".


I don't claim to be a trained or skilled knife fighter... so take this for what it is, an opinion. As I stated before we work on situations like this from time to time with our sifu. My sifu is very skilled with a knife and even very good at defending against one in a controlled situation.

Notice I said in a " Controlled Situation "

I can't know how well he'd do in a combat situation.


From his experience he mentioned that you'd actually would have a better chance of defending yourself against the "Sewing Machine" type attack. His reason for saying this, was the method in which you would have to hold the knife only allows for certain movements and stabs. Also, you can actually see the knife in that method of attack. Where as a trained knife fighter who holds the blade down can move in any direction and cut , slice, stab on a dime. This type of attack he says is pretty much unstoppable because you'd never know which direction the knife was coming from and more than likely you'd never even see the blade.

There are certain ways you could react with the "sewing machine" attack that just might give you a chance, but almost no angle to defense the other.


jeff:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't claim to be a trained or skilled knife fighter... so take this for what it is, an opinion. As I stated before we work on situations like this from time to time with our sifu. My sifu is very skilled with a knife and even very good at defending against one in a controlled situation.

Notice I said in a " Controlled Situation "

I can't know how well he'd do in a combat situation.


From his experience he mentioned that you'd actually would have a better chance of defending yourself against the "Sewing Machine" type attack. His reason for saying this, was the method in which you would have to hold the knife only allows for certain movements and stabs. Also, you can actually see the knife in that method of attack. Where as a trained knife fighter who holds the blade down can move in any direction and cut , slice, stab on a dime. This type of attack he says is pretty much unstoppable because you'd never know which direction the knife was coming from and more than likely you'd never even see the blade.

There are certain ways you could react with the "sewing machine" attack that just might give you a chance, but almost no angle to defense the other.


jeff:)

The sewing machine attack is done with the knife held in the hammer or "sabre" position and as such, there is far less telegraphing than with the reverse grip (ice pick) which is what I THINK you are saying when you say "blade down".
With the ice pick your elbow tends to lead your blade.
And the typical sewing machine attack does NOT show the blade.
Its called a sewing machine because of the MOTION not the way the blade id held, heck you can do it with an ice pick grip too.
What examplifies the sewing machin is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

At the 4:22 mark and on. ( watch the whole thing though)

[SimonM]

Ah dude, if a guy has a knife and knows how to use it, you're a carved turkey, period.
Unless you have a knife/weapon and are BETTER than your attacker.
Unarmed VS a knife?
Versus a guy that KNOWS how to use it and WANTS to kill you?
Ah dude....

Sad as it is to say SR is right.

If your opponent knows how to use a blade they will cut whatever part of your body you present for cutting and will then capitalize on the openings created to cut you more.

This falls under the heading of:

"don't let this happen to you" or alternately "run away!"

[jmd161]

The sewing machine attack is done with the knife held in the hammer or "sabre" position and as such, there is far less telegraphing than with the reverse grip (ice pick) which is what I THINK you are saying when you say "blade down".
With the ice pick your elbow tends to lead your blade.
And the typical sewing machine attack does NOT show the blade.
Its called a sewing machine because of the MOTION not the way the blade id held, heck you can do it with an ice pick grip too.
What examplifies the sewing machin is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

At the 4:22 mark and on. ( watch the whole thing though)



Yeah I watched the video again and I wouldn't want to face either.:eek: LOL


The method I'm talking about would be the "Ice Pick" type grip. My sifu uses the same type of movement with the free hand like in that video, so if there was any leading with the elbow...I don't think you'd have time to notice. He worked with us using the other grip as well, but with the "Ice Pick" his preferred method of holding the knife and he showed techniques that at least led us to believe it would be much more deadly. He was very compact with the movement and every move was a slice to a tendon or muscle or vital area. From his words and from our training experience you pretty much dead if you face a skilled knife fighter who's intent on taking you out. Especially within that 0-6' range they spoke of in the video...it's funny because my sifu said about the same exact range.

Scary stuff!

jeff:)

[SimonM]

it happened during a 'break' in fighting. this is one of the reasons why i think sparring is not the be-all-and-end-all. real fights break and come back together again - as such, IMHO practising entry drills can be almost as important as sparring.


Sparring is better than not-sparring.

See nobody is saying that if you spar you will automatically be prepared for any situation that arises. But you will be a **** sight better prepared than the guy who never spars.

Blade training, likewise, must include a sparring aspect.

With reference to sparring with blades one issue is that, as has been pointed out, getting cut hurts. As a result, although it is of limited use, I would advise against rubber knives rubbed with lipstick (or other such tricks) after the first session.

Instead I'd actually suggest starting off with shinai and no pads. Progress from there to (not to put too fine a point on it) sticks of the length that replicate the blades you wish to train on.

Nothing cultures respect for a weapon like getting smacked on the knuckles (and upside the head) a bunch of times with a chunk of wood.

If you really care about NOT losing an eye than a fencing mask might be a good investment.

Gee... who does basically this?

Hmmmm...

The dog brothers.

Guess I gotta add my recommendation of their pedagogy to SR's.

[Graychuan]

How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?

I was watching some knife fighting videos on youtube then the thought came to me "What the hell would I do in that situation?", " Thrust a guard out and have it cut to ribbons!...no I'd shorten my guard and my blocks (I know theres no blocks in wing chun- maybe my defensive hand techniques :confused:) then I'd perform some sort of limb destruction to immobilize the weapon then I turn and take out my opponent.

By the way the attacker is SKILLED! like an EVIL GURO DAN INOSANTO!!!! :( theres no one stab to guts but a million and one slashes).

1.What would you do?

2.Can you shorten your guard? And what happens to the immoveable elbow theory?

3.Does anyone practice limb destruction in there wing chun (nerves, muscles, joints)?

4.What about your footwork? Is it alive enough for this kind off situation?

5.What drills do you think would help? It can could from any art once you mod it to use wing chun concepts.

My advice is to learn how to knife fight. Study Kali/escrima. Filipino martial arts are a lot more complete than you may think. You dont just learn sticks, the sticks are not just for graduating to knife techniques. Kali escrima techniques are effective empty handed as well. In our kali training we use stick vs stick, knife vs stick, knife vs knife in our sparring. However we also train empty hand against knife as well. Kali/escrima is also full of locks,throws/felling, kicks, dis-arms, and hand strikes and footwork.
All of your questions could be answered by doing this.

[SimonM]

It is 100% truth that a stick can be an equalizer against a blade.

Please note: can, not will, but it's a big risk.

And two caviats:

1) For a stick to be an effective equalizer you have to be significantly better with it than your opponent is with a blade.

2) The stick should be considerably longer than the blade so that you can exploit a range advantage.

With regard to disarms I've made it clear in previous posts what I think of the tactical usefullness of them.

95% of them are a very good way to get yourself cut. And rule number 1 of blade fighting is avoid getting cut if you can. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is 100% truth that a stick can be an equalizer against a blade.

Please note: can, not will, but it's a big risk.

And two caviats:

1) For a stick to be an effective equalizer you have to be significantly better with it than your opponent is with a blade.

2) The stick should be considerably longer than the blade so that you can exploit a range advantage.

With regard to disarms I've made it clear in previous posts what I think of the tactical usefullness of them.

95% of them are a very good way to get yourself cut. And rule number 1 of blade fighting is avoid getting cut if you can. ;)

Here is the thing, if you've done full contact stick work you will know that, unless its a nice and heavy stick or an ASP or pipe/steel bar, you can take a few good shots with a stick, unless it gets you in the noggin and even then, unless its a nice and dense stick, you can still be "OK".
Knife fighters know this and will "take a shot" to get in a stab or 2 or 15.
You can pretty much close the gab on someone with a stick ( you with a knife) and cover yourself well and get only "minor" bruises.
Of course if its a pipe, or ASP or heavy stick it will hurt a whole lot more, but even then a determined attacker with a knife mat still be able to get to you.

[SimonM]

You are absolutely right.

If I was armed with a stick, was facing a knife fighter and flight was not an option I'd go for fingers and face and I'd fight very conservatively.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are absolutely right.

If I was armed with a stick, was facing a knife fighter and flight was not an option I'd go for fingers and face and I'd fight very conservatively.

That is the thing though, stick work is a distance thing and once that distance is closed...
The knife is, in many ways, the ultimate in-close weapon.
It doesn't need force to do damage.
It doesn't run out of bullets.
It can be used to kill, maim even subdue.
It can end a fight quick or make it go on in a very painful and messy way.

Everyone would do well to train and understand the edged weapon.

Everyone would do well to train as if every strike was an "edged" one.

[SimonM]

You have cut the femoral artery of the correct. It is now bleeding out. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have cut the femoral artery of the correct. It is now bleeding out. :D

Don't even talk about femoral...

[TenTigers]

simple solution: shoot him while he's sleeping.
that is the only way.

[TenTigers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj_mR2r6VL8

[doug maverick]

How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?

I was watching some knife fighting videos on youtube then the thought came to me "What the hell would I do in that situation?", " Thrust a guard out and have it cut to ribbons!...no I'd shorten my guard and my blocks (I know theres no blocks in wing chun- maybe my defensive hand techniques :confused:) then I'd perform some sort of limb destruction to immobilize the weapon then I turn and take out my opponent.

By the way the attacker is SKILLED! like an EVIL GURO DAN INOSANTO!!!! :( theres no one stab to guts but a million and one slashes).

1.What would you do?

2.Can you shorten your guard? And what happens to the immoveable elbow theory?

3.Does anyone practice limb destruction in there wing chun (nerves, muscles, joints)?

4.What about your footwork? Is it alive enough for this kind off situation?

5.What drills do you think would help? It can could from any art once you mod it to use wing chun concepts.

Question:How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who's out for your total destruction?

Answer: with a really big gun.

[SimonM]

Unless he's up close. At < 5 meters knife > gun.

[Knifefighter]

Lots of misinformation about blade attacks on this thread.

BTW, people survive brutal, multiple wound knife attacks all the time.

[SimonM]

My primary area of blade training is with swords, I will admit, and my statements are predicated on that training. However I have some experience with knife training and although I have thankfully never had to test the training in a live environment the testing I have done suggests that the training with knives has mapped relatively well from my other experience with longer blades.

Now if you have a difference of opinion I certainly respect you enough that I'd enjoy hearing your perspective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lots of misinformation about blade attacks on this thread.

BTW, people survive brutal, multiple wound knife attacks all the time.

While this is true, we are talking about SKILLED knife attacks.
I tend to fall in the "over cautious" and "worse case scenario" fields when it comes to edged weapons.

[Graychuan]

It is 100% truth that a stick can be an equalizer against a blade.

Please note: can, not will, but it's a big risk.

And two caviats:

1) For a stick to be an effective equalizer you have to be significantly better with it than your opponent is with a blade.
2) The stick should be considerably longer than the blade so that you can exploit a range advantage.

With regard to disarms I've made it clear in previous posts what I think of the tactical usefullness of them.

95% of them are a very good way to get yourself cut. And rule number 1 of blade fighting is avoid getting cut if you can. ;)




Some who train kali/ escrima never get past the fact that the sticks are mainly just a precursor to using blades. A stick is a good weapon but the Kali and escrima stick training is mostly for safe sparring. This doesnt take away from the fact that sticks are effective weapons within themselves. That being said...it is the technique that allows for the knife/stick to be used and dealt with.
Whether or not someone is better at a stick than thier opponent is with a blade is not that relavent. The techniques are the same. So it really comes down to who is better at knife/stick fighting period.

Now if there is disagreement about whether or not kali/escrima sticks is or isnt the 'safe'/sparring way to practice knife fighting then this could be a whole different discussion.



Here is the thing, if you've done full contact stick work you will know that, unless its a nice and heavy stick or an ASP or pipe/steel bar, you can take a few good shots with a stick, unless it gets you in the noggin and even then, unless its a nice and dense stick, you can still be "OK".
Knife fighters know this and will "take a shot" to get in a stab or 2 or 15.
You can pretty much close the gab on someone with a stick ( you with a knife) and cover yourself well and get only "minor" bruises.
Of course if its a pipe, or ASP or heavy stick it will hurt a whole lot more, but even then a determined attacker with a knife mat still be able to get to you.


I agree with you about the sticks not being heavy or powerful enough, however the rattan kali sticks normally used are mainly for 'sparring'. Combat style escrima dont have as much of the outer layers stripped off before they are cured and used. They are a lot heavier and much more effective.

Also with the stabbings you are exactly right...this is why kali/eascrima systems have poking/stabbing motions along with slicing motions in the basic striking sets that beginners learn... because Kali/Escrima training IS knifefighting. How good of a hole will you make in a person with a blunt ended stick?:confused:

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=Graychuan;924794]Some who train kali/ escrima never get past the fact that the sticks are mainly just a precursor to using blades. A stick is a good weapon but the Kali and escrima stick training is mostly for safe sparring. [QUOTE]

FWIW, one needs to make modifications to effectively use techniques trained with a stick and translate them to a knife. Also many of the counters need to be changes as well. One may be able to strip a stick from an opponent but I would not suggest doing that against someone with a blade. Also one can strike with any portion of the stick but one must adjust the angles and contact area to use a blad effectivley.

While it is true that stick work does translate to knife work it is not a one to one exchange. If one is not trained properly then one will be unaware of the variations in angles, etc.

Basically what I am trying to say is that just because someone knows how to use a stick does not automatically mean they are able to use a knife.

Oh, one other thing, let someone thrust you with a stick and see if if drops you. If you perform a thrust properly then even a blunt stick will do a bit of damage.

[Graychuan]

FWIW, one needs to make modifications to effectively use techniques trained with a stick and translate them to a knife. Also many of the counters need to be changes as well. One may be able to strip a stick from an opponent but I would not suggest doing that against someone with a blade. Also one can strike with any portion of the stick but one must adjust the angles and contact area to use a blad effectivley.

While it is true that stick work does translate to knife work it is not a one to one exchange. If one is not trained properly then one will be unaware of the variations in angles, etc.

Basically what I am trying to say is that just because someone knows how to use a stick does not automatically mean they are able to use a knife.

Oh, one other thing, let someone thrust you with a stick and see if if drops you. If you perform a thrust properly then even a blunt stick will do a bit of damage.

I completely agree...this is why i made thepoint that some dome make the change from stick to knife. Some dont know. And just forthe record...my original response was to learn Kali/escrima in order to learn the application of knife as well. Not just the stick. The training and information that comes with graduating from stick to knife is what is important. And i would argue on the the variations of angles and such with regards to the stick to knife thing. Other than the longer stick, the angles and footwork are generally the same. You mainly just go for the cut with a Knife whereas with a stick the tendency is to block/strike and counter. But ,again, I am aware that I am greatly generalizing here.
On that last point....if I wanted to poke or stab...i would still use a knife instead of a stick but I am in agreement that both are effective.

[MrQuickstep]

THIS THREAD (FORUM) IS A WASTE OF TIME!!!

Whats wrong with you guys why are you guys just wimping out...

All you guys are saying is that wing chun can't deal with that situation so we go dead or go learn another art that can deal with it.

We're only as good as we train so if we don't train for the situation we can't deal with it. Why don't we invite some knife fighters to the forum and let them explain what works for them and why...then we meet them in a dojo with a magic marker and try something.

Seems like this forum is all talk...my style is better than your style, my internal is better than your external, I wanna be like bruce lee when I grow up (I wonder who bruce lee wanted to be like?), modern martial arts and practices better than old martial arts and practices (but then why was your sifu's sifu sifu so **** good...must be luck).People needs to remember that what look good today looks like crap tomorrow.

This thread has shown me the light...I'm done with wing chun, thanks fellas.

[Graychuan]

THIS THREAD (FORUM) IS A WASTE OF TIME!!!

Whats wrong with you guys why are you guys just wimping out...

All you guys are saying is that wing chun can't deal with that situation so we go dead or go learn another art that can deal with it.

We're only as good as we train so if we don't train for the situation we can't deal with it. Why don't we invite some knife fighters to the forum and let them explain what works for them and why...then we meet them in a dojo with a magic marker and try something.

Seems like this forum is all talk...my style is better than your style, my internal is better than your external, I wanna be like bruce lee when I grow up (I wonder who bruce lee wanted to be like?), modern martial arts and practices better than old martial arts and practices (but then why was your sifu's sifu sifu so **** good...must be luck).People needs to remember that what look good today looks like crap tomorrow.

This thread has shown me the light...I'm done with wing chun, thanks fellas.


Uh...Sihing73...other than the fact that we didnt completely agree i dont really see what Quickstep is talking about here. I thought our exchage was at least civil. Did I miss something?

[MrQuickstep]

You're right Graychuan the exchange was civil just pointless.

It's like you have a bag with a hole (bag meaning wing chun and hole meaning a hole made by good knife fighters to the system) what do you do...some people recommend ditching the bag for a new one or putting only big things in the bag that don't pass through the hole.

I think we should fix the hole!

You realize noone tried to came up with anyway to deal with such an attack...

[Edmund]

I think we should fix the hole!

You realize noone tried to came up with anyway to deal with such an attack...

But you said EVIL DAN INOSANTO! He's armed. You aren't.

How the hell is anyone going to say they are going to deal with that?

[Graychuan]

But you said EVIL DAN INOSANTO! He's armed. You aren't.

How the hell is anyone going to say they are going to deal with that?


lmao :p:p

[Lee Chiang Po]

The original question was about dealing with a knife welding attacker that is bent on killing you. Firstly, there are not really highly trained knife fighters left these days because most would have fallen afoul of the law by now. But even at that some people seem to have a natural ability to weld a knife. You can not take a knife from one of these people without being extremely committed yourself. In any case, unless you tend to hang out in places where you might be in danger of this sort of attack, it will happen while you are coming or going on the street. Hardly anyone carries sticks or swords with them when going out to eat or whatever. Most do not carry a pocket knife. A tiny little pocket knife with a razor sharp blade can quickly and easily kill you. How many people here have ever been cut or stabbed in an altercation? Something happens when suddenly confronted by such danger, and it will effect how you react to it. You get a huge rush, and this can make you stand and stare or it can make you get mean. Survival requires you to be as clear about what you are doing as you can get. There are things you can do to defend yourself, but the first thing you need to understand is that you are just about to be cut or stabbed. How badly depends on just how you deal with the situation. You should not confront or otherwise attempt to disarm the person, but should talk as you attempt to find a route of escape. If you are cornered and have no recourse you will have to do something or you are dead. Large coins can inflict serious injury to a face as well as a set of car keys. Your jacket or shirt can protect your body against a dull knife, but a stabber is not effected. The same jacket rolled around your hand and forearm can deflect or otherwise defend you against the blade while you seek a weapon or fight back with the other hand.
I have been stabbed a number of times. I have been slashed and cut a few more times. I have been stabbed in my back about an inch from my spine and in my left chest. I have had a large knife ran completely through my right hand, severing arteries and tendons, requiring surgery to fix. 2 stabbings were life threatening.
Let me give you an example of how I managed to defeat a knife attack once. I was coming out of a Kentucky Fried Chicken joint with both hands full. 2 individuals approached me and asked to borrow money. I told them I had no cash. One stood watch while the other called me a liar and started to go into my pockets. I pushed him away and he stabbed at me and drove the knife through my right hand. I could still use it although the thumb tandon seperated. I pulled off my shirt and rolled it around my left hand to ward off the knife. He struck again and the blade went through the shirt and cut my left hand, but I pushed it aside and grabbed his hand with my right hand. I could not hold his arm because my thumb was dead. So, I ran into him and started shoving him off balance and against a round pipe hand rail. I managed to secure his right hand and the knife and as I was up against him I got a big mouth full of his left cheek and bit down so hard that I bit out a huge chunk of meat. He dropped the knife and went to yelling and his buddy broke around the building. What I did next might not have been appropriate however. I kneed him in the groin several times and hammered him in the face. I then pulled him by his hair and lips over to the little yellow speed bump and laid him face down on it with his mouth wide open over it and stomped his head twice. The mall police came before I could leave, but was not arrested. The mugger was. I was then driven to the closest hospital to have my hand repaired. Later the guy tried to sue me for the mouth work since he said he was no longer trying to harm me when it occured. He was lucky that we were in a KFC parking lot and not behind the bowling alley.
When defending against a knife attack, there is nothing static that you are going to train for. It will have so many variables involved that you just need a general type of defence and then ad lib to the best of your ability. You just have to be ruthless at times. Remember, it is far better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're right Graychuan the exchange was civil just pointless.

It's like you have a bag with a hole (bag meaning wing chun and hole meaning a hole made by good knife fighters to the system) what do you do...some people recommend ditching the bag for a new one or putting only big things in the bag that don't pass through the hole.

I think we should fix the hole!

You realize noone tried to came up with anyway to deal with such an attack...

I am sorry you feel that way because, the answer is given, quite a few times actually.

[Knifefighter]

While this is true, we are talking about SKILLED knife attacks.
I tend to fall in the "over cautious" and "worse case scenario" fields when it comes to edged weapons.

People who have actually been in real blade encounters are much more skilled than most "skilled" knife fighters who have been "trained".

Most people who are "trained" in knives are mostly theoretical non-fighters.

[Knifefighter]

Whether or not someone is better at a stick than thier opponent is with a blade is not that relavent. The techniques are the same. So it really comes down to who is better at knife/stick fighting period.

Blunt long range weapons are used completely differently than are edged, close range weapons.

[Knifefighter]

Oh, one other thing, let someone thrust you with a stick and see if if drops you. If you perform a thrust properly then even a blunt stick will do a bit of damage.

Thrusting with a stick is very ineffective and almost useless in a standing exchange.

[Knifefighter]

Firstly, there are not really highly trained knife fighters left these days because most would have fallen afoul of the law by now.
The most effective training ground for fighting with knives is prison.



I pushed him away and he stabbed at me and drove the knife through my right hand. I could still use it although the thumb tandon seperated. I pulled off my shirt and rolled it around my left hand to ward off the knife.

LOL... meanwhile, he stood there waiting for you to take your shirt off and wrap it around your hand.

Sorry, real life blade attacks don't happen like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People who have actually been in real blade encounters are much more skilled than most "skilled" knife fighters who have been "trained".

Most people who are "trained" in knives are mostly theoretical non-fighters.

I'll give you that much.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thrusting with a stick is very ineffective and almost useless in a standing exchange.

While I tend to agree in regards to the "long sticks", it must be noted that, with a "palm stick", thrusting becomes far more effective, though, in the context of VS a edge weapon it may not matter that much, every little bit helps.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL... meanwhile, he stood there waiting for you to take your shirt off and wrap it around your hand.

Sorry, real life blade attacks don't happen like that.

Hey, I saw that in "runaway train" with Jon Voight, so it must be true !

[Graychuan]

The first qoute is actually sihing73... from this post...





FWIW, one needs to make modifications to effectively use techniques trained with a stick and translate them to a knife. Also many of the counters need to be changes as well. One may be able to strip a stick from an opponent but I would not suggest doing that against someone with a blade. Also one can strike with any portion of the stick but one must adjust the angles and contact area to use a blad effectivley.

While it is true that stick work does translate to knife work it is not a one to one exchange. If one is not trained properly then one will be unaware of the variations in angles, etc.

Basically what I am trying to say is that just because someone knows how to use a stick does not automatically mean they are able to use a knife.

Oh, one other thing, let someone thrust you with a stick and see if if drops you. If you perform a thrust properly then even a blunt stick will do a bit of damage.



Please be carful with misquotes, please.





As far as the second..I agree with you that is why i said in my post that sticks are for sparring and training and can be used for combat.

[Graychuan]

I am sorry you feel that way because, the answer is given, quite a few times actually.


I'm in agreement.

[imperialtaichi]

Strategy.

The first line of defense is often how to avoid the situation. Be invisible.

The second line is often run away whenever possible. Live to fight another day.

Confrontation only happens when there are no other choices.

When confronting, my first thought would be what I can do to disrupt the attacker's momentum and rythm both physically and mentally; throw a chair at him? Pattern disruption techniques (like asking him "why are you holding a spoon?" don't laugh, it works! ;) )? Plus physical techniques? Grab someone infront of you (yes, it's dirty, but I'm talking about survival)? Beg for mercy? Offer him alternatives such as money? There are no set answers, one just has to respond to the situation.

Chances of stopping someone charging at me with a weapon purely through physical mean is hard if not suicidal; but if I can disrupt the attacker even by a split second so I can carry out some physical techniques, it would have increased my survival rate significantly already.

Cheers,
John

[Lee Chiang Po]

Knife fighter, I have done my stint in Angola, Louisiana's state pen, and knife fighting is not something you learn there. In fact, most people use a sneak attack and shank a person as many times as they can. Usually against a person that is completely unarmed, so prison is not the place to gain knife fighting experience. Cutting is a more natural ability than a trained one. Stabbing a person repeatedly is the first sign of not knowing what you are doing. A simple slash from a small, sharp blade on the jugular vain will do what you are wanting much quicker.
Shedding a loose football shirt can be done in a flash and spun around the wrist and hand almost instantly. I suppose that I was sayin I called a time out and took my time? I was moving away from him in an attempt to avoid his knife hand.
I can see that by your name, which is not your real name, that you consider yourself a knife fighter. Have you ever cut anyone? Been cut? If not, then how would you know one way or the other? You are going on inexperienced assumptions.

[Knifefighter]

Stabbing a person repeatedly is the first sign of not knowing what you are doing. A simple slash from a small, sharp blade on the jugular vain will do what you are wanting much quicker.
Shedding a loose football shirt can be done in a flash and spun around the wrist and hand almost instantly. .

You are completely clueless about blade confrontations.

[SimonM]

LCP: I know that with most swords cutting is secondary to thrusting - even with blades capable of both.

This is partly because a thrust is more likely to be a killing stroke. It's also because a thrust has a longer range than a cut and thus keeps you further away from the other guy's blade.

And considering the small distances that are the difference between life and death in a blade confrontation range is a very important. As a result I have to disagree with you about cutting vs. thrusting.

[jmd161]

The most effective training ground for fighting with knives is prison.



Have you ever been to prison?


When does this training go on with knives and where in the prison is this training taking place? I agree there are weapons in jails/prisons, but they're not just sitting around talking about knife fighting in either. Most stabbings in jail/prison are either a single armed attacker from the back by surprise or several attackers ambushing an unarmed person. You very rarely have a situation where both people are armed or even aware of an attack in the making. Most attacks I've seen in jail/prison where 95% multiple attackers against one person.

jeff:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you ever been to prison?


When does this training go on with knives and where in the prison is this training taking place? I agree there are weapons in jails/prisons, but they're not just sitting around talking about knife fighting in either. Most stabbings in jail/prison are either a single armed attacker from the back by surprise or several attackers ambushing an unarmed person. You very rarely have a situation where both people are armed or even aware of an attack in the making. Most attacks I've seen in jail/prison where 95% multiple attackers against one person.

jeff:)

I think Dale's been in a Turkish Prison ;)
:D

[Wayfaring]

You are completely clueless about blade confrontations.

Yeah, me too.

My approach would likely be sprint like an Olympian until there is 100 yds or so or enough distance between me and the attacker to draw my sidearm.

[SimonM]

If you could get 100 yards away safely why stop to shoot the guy and get done up on a murder bid.

Just keep running.

[Wayfaring]

If you could get 100 yards away safely why stop to shoot the guy and get done up on a murder bid.

Just keep running.

Geez, everyone's a critic. I would stop, aim my weapon and see if he advances on me in a threatening manner with his knife. If he does, that would cause me to fear for my life and take action to stop them. I have no guarantees that I could outrun them long-term without the element of surprise.

I'd also familiarize myself with exact self-defense laws and legal requirements in the state I am in to be prepared for this, as they are not all the same in every state. I don't know much about blade fighting, but have done the concealed carry classes for handguns + permit.

[imperialtaichi]

Aiming at cutting someone's jugular vein is NOT good strategy in terms of using a knife. Unlike the movies, people do NOT die straight away and can still fight back for a few minutes. Plus, one has to be quite precise, and in the chaos of a real confrontation you don't want to resort to delicate techniques.

The dynamics of using a knife is different; the easiest and most effctive is to connect knife to enemy as many times as quickly as possible.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Another movie fantasy that's dangerous is that people always die straight away as soon as the person was shot or stabbed. The reality is that most situations the person can continue to fight back just a little more even is he is critically injured. He just dies later on the operating table. Which means even if I manage to critically injure my attacker, he may still be able to slice me so I could die in the hospital with him.

Most "die on the spot with one hit" injuries are results of luck, not training.

Cheers,
John

[mjw]

Be prepared to get cut if not die. In a situation like this survival is winning. I would still fight if I couldn't run away or escape and accept death and try to kill the knife fighter pick up whatever you cand and use deadly force because it will be a fight or flight experience. You might get lucky or you might die done and done.