Internal/External: a different way to look at it?

[imperialtaichi]

Sorry Hendrik, just branching off from your thread....

We often call people who has obvious muscular strength and good biomechanical structures external; and those who seems to generate more power than what can be easily seen visually, internal?

So, may be internal or external is not really a separate thing but different shades of grey based on what is observable?

So, what's internal for one is external for another and vice versa? Based on one's level of understanding and personal view?

And may be because it is a "subjective view" that's why there seems to have no end to the argument?

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

Sorry Hendrik, just branching off from your thread....

We often call people who has obvious muscular strength and good biomechanical structures external; and those who seems to generate more power than what can be easily seen visually, internal?

So, may be internal or external is not really a separate thing but different shades of grey based on what is observable?

So, what's internal for one is external for another and vice versa? Based on one's level of understanding and personal view?

And may be because it is a "subjective view" that's why there seems to have no end to the argument?

Cheers,
John


John,

In my understanding, the so called "internal art and external art" or Nei Chia / Wai Chia are defined in a few way when it comes to TCMA.

and there are NEi Kung/Wai Kung which is the internal training method and external training method which was common used term in many ancient TCMA style.

There is no need to argue at all. It is just a matter of clarification IMHO.


However, saying that, it open a can of worm that lots of people will not like to face. That is what if one find out their lineage no longer complete or they only learn a partial art. That is a cold facts which IMHO a lots of people will infact deny the existance of the missing part just to secure thier position, title, and prestige.....ect



LET's see what is going on from the history of TCMA.


A, Nei Chia /Wai Chia


definition #1,

Daoist related art is " internal" Chinese art because it is based on Chinese Daoism.

Buddhist related art is "external" because it is based on Buddhism which comes from "External" of China.




definition #2

Buddhist lay man art is "internal" because lay man is living within thier home/family, compare with Monk/Nun's art is "external" because monk/nun is living outside their home/family.







B, where and when they were used?


definition #1 was used by some in the history of China for discrimination purpose. IE Shao LIn and Wu Dang.


definition #2 was used Within Shao lin






C, Nei Kung and Wai Kung.




prio to 1850, Nei Chia/ Wai Chia or Internal art/External art are not that popular, IMHO.


Wai Kung and Nei Kung are what TCM artis refer in the ancient time.

Wai Kung or Externally training means Externally train the Sinew, muscle, and bone,
Nei Kung or Internal training means Internally train the Jing, Qi, and Shen.



In fact, all complete style has Wai Kung and Nei Kung or External training and internal training.

And there are different type of Wai Kung and Nei Kung, namely the Kang or Rou type. IE White Crane of Fujian wrote in its classical identify it is Kang method such as thier pre 1800 San Chin training. Emei 12 Zhuang wrote in its classical identify it is Rou method.




For me, Nei Kung (internal training) and Wai Kung (external training) makes more sense then Nei Chia or Wai Chia.





Finally,

The training of Muscle, Sinew, and bone or "external visible body" parts are very different then
the training of Jing, Qi, and Shen or " internal AWARE " components.

and these are well documented.


IE: in Wu Taiji which was passed down by Master Wang Pei Shen, a sample of both waikung --the use/train of body parts and neikung the activation/use of Qi flow were present in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2v8C33f1mw



Thus, IMHO, we need to know those stuffs exist in details, it is only we are ignorance about it. if we keep define stuffs as we like with our very narrow vision we got stuck. sure we always can argue and challenge, however, face it we dont have the technology if we goes that way.




IMHO, we need to clarify these stuffs instead of re define these stuffs ourself,
so that we know what was refer to when studying ancient Chinese martial art. Otherwise it becomes a mess.

and actually, it is already a mess because most of us doesnt have much idea on what is exactly the training of Jing, Qi, Shen. We thought that is Qigong. Nope. again, the Term Qigong is mostly a popular modern term starting early 1900.




So, based on evidence, SLT does have both Wai Kung or external training and Nei Kung internal training. But that is not the same with Internal art or external art which is usually refer as Nei Chia or Wai Chia.

[Hendrik]

Some might wonder why do I mention master Ma Li-Dang or master Wang PeiShen.

Well, that is because these are among true master of TCMA in past two decades. The Nei Kung and Wai Kung are best to be examined from these masters practices instead of we speculating with our narrow mind.

Thus, IMHO, those who love WCK must not define things our own way because until we know , we dont know and lots of thing we really have no clue.




Here is the Master Wang PeiShen incident in China at 1980... for those who love to know about can TCMA fight or the old man within the youtube clip in the above thread can do it.


...............From very ancient times Chinese culture has heavily influenced Japanese society, this
included martial arts. One Japanese martial arts group that has particularly close ties to
China today is the Nippon Shorinji Kempo group, or Japanese Shaolin Martial Arts
Association. Within Japan, although the total numbers of kendo, judo, and karate
practitioners are larger, they are splintered among many styles, so Shorinji Kempo is
actually the single largest martial arts organization. At that time in China, not just
Shaolin style, but martial arts in general, was going through one of its low periods.
Seeing this, and comparing to their own popularity in Japan, there was the sentiment
among Shorinji Kempo members that they were now the standard bearers of Chinese
martial arts. When they made their 8th trip to China during the 1982 National Martial
Arts Championships, they demonstrated their techniques, and afterwards, as they have
done in previous times, challenged the Chinese to a real fight. The last time they did
that, when there was no response, they said: “Today physically the Shaolin Temple may
still be in China, but the real Shaolin martial art is only in Japan.”

This made Chinese government officials very angry and ashamed. The government
desperately needed a Chinese master to defeat the Japanese. In this case, failure is not
an option, either you don’t answer the challenge, or you win. There is no other way.
But thanks to the policies in recent decades, there was no one in the younger generation
who could meet the challenge, and most of the older generation masters were either too
old or unwilling to do it. The Japanese delegation were at their prime. Their realistic
embu (fighting demonstration) were a marked contrast to the modern Wu Shu
performances. It looked hard. It looked real. It was extremely intimidating. But this
time, the Japanese found their calls answered. Earlier, Mao Behou, an official in charge
of the martial arts affairs, knowing Master Wang’s ability, had asked him if he would be
willing to accept the challenge. Master Wang said simply: “I can do it.”

The event took place in a regular meeting room. There were more than ten Japanese
masters in attendance. Master Wang was accompanied by Ma Jinlong, his student and
now head of the Li Style Taiji Quan group. First a translator introduced each master.
He then told the Japanese masters that Master Wang is a Taiji master. The Japanese
masters looked at each other in disappointment because they wanted to meet someone
who could really fight, and in their minds Taiji was for the old and the weak. “We hear
about Taiji,” the leader of the delegation said, “in Japan, many people practice it, and it
is just for health.” Then there was awkward silence, for a while nobody said a word, it
looked like they didn’t even want to talk any more. This made Master Wang unhappy,
but he kept his composure. He said: “From what this gentleman just said, we know he
does not understand Taiji Quan. If someone does not understand Taiji Quan, he does
not really understand martial art. Yes, Taiji is good for health, but it’s also for fighting.
Furthermore, it actually represents the highest level principle for fighting.” Then Master
Wang explained some Taiji principles. Standing up from his chair, he continued
smoothly, “I can say means I can do. I know your guys do not believe I can fight. So
please choose the best fighter from your group, and use his best skill to fight with me.
We will test this right now.” On the Japanese side, Yamazaki sensei, headquarter co-
chief instructor, stood up, and the fight began.

First he grabbed Master Wang’s wrist with one hand, attempted to twist it, and chop
the outside of the arm right above the elbow with the other hand. His movements were
so fast that many in the room did not even realize the fight had already begun. But
Master Wang was calm and poised, upon initial contact he unbalanced Yamazaki with
just one subtle movement, and then, in a continuous, fluid motion, twisted and chopped
Yamazaki’s arm. Yamazaki hit the ground with both his head and his knees. Master
Wang did not let go, he continued to control Yamazaki and kept him down. At this
point just about everyone saw what happened, but they couldn’t understand what was
going on.

Master Wang just smiled and said this was simple. He let Yamazaki up. Yamazaki tried it again, and was defeated the same way again. After that Master
Wang threw Yamazaki 6 more times. One time Yamazaki’s flew uncontrollably toward the corner of an end table, and Ma Jinlong pushed him out of harm’s
way. Another time he was thrown clear out of the room. As it should be with high level Taiji Quan skill, the Master Wang’s movements were extremely
subtle, sometimes it looked like he was just waving his hands or only moving a finger or two.

The Japanese delegation was in shock. They didn’t understand what just transpired, but their attitude changed immediately. “This is our 8th trip to China.
And this time we learned the most.” After they went back to Japan, they wrote an article about this fight and Master Wang's life that was published in a
Japanese martial arts magazine. The article opened with the line “Those slender fingers, they inspire such fear!” Also they listed Master Wang as one of the
ten greatest Chinese martial artists.



http://www.ycgf.org/WPS_Eulogy/WPS_Eulogy.html

[rochester]

Any independent verification of this tale?

[Violent Designs]

Hendrik, 我真服了。

为了面子，咱们中国人什么破烂儿都能鞭出来。 。 。

你真敢信这片文章？

我不吧你当做傻瓜，所以，你应该明白！

完全是中国人在自以为是，瞧不起日本人。

我也读过一片文章说八极拳打败了泰拳。后来，人们发现了那整个故事多是瞎编的！

[Violent Designs]

Any independent verification of this tale?

Read like bull****, smell like bull****.

Being Chinese it is easy to spot, when Chinese are lying, just for saving face and making them look better. ESPECIALLY against Japanese. It's horrible, because I believe martial art is about fighting, not FABRICATING fighting storys.

Lying, and making up sh1t, does not make me happy, it show that other Chinese still want to act like they are the best, center of martial art world, they have secret, the "old master" cannot be beaten.

Unfortunately this crap will never stop because of Confucian model in part of Chinese society.

[Vajramusti]

Lots of noise on this and at least two other threads regarding the terms-internal and external.
What a mess!

Lots of confusion of terms and what they supposedly refer to, and we have gone over this so many times and in so many forums..

Sun Lu Tang and others in the last 150 years or so more or less classified entire styles as Nei Jia and Wai Jia- saving the nei accolades for taiji. bagua and hsing Yi. Others are banished to the nether lands.

Classifications can be arbitrary. Specially when you throw in north south distinctions. Taiji is northern and wing chun is southern.
You add to this Chinese nationalism and nei becomes those things that are more Chinese and internal, waijia supposedly more Buddhist and "foreign" or external..

From a practical standpoint- the nei kung, wai kung distinction ,that Hendrik also uses, is useful in understanding TCMA. Well developed styles will have elements of wai kung and nei kung though the training sequences of styles would have their differences.

In Chen taiji you use standing stake to develop the nei- later heavy weapons can be used.

In wing chun the ygkym when the structure is properly done and managed is the standing stake
while coordinated hand motions are developed at the same time in the sil lim tao. you dont need to import taiji to develop the nei kung in wing chun. You develop both the wai and nei kung in wing chun. Of course there so much more detail- but internet forum threads are so readily chopped off and they scatter into noise quickly.

With a good teacher and learning well and keeping up with development- you don't have to worry about definitions. Corrections and pointers-rather than empty jabberwocky- worth their weight in gold.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Read like bull****, smell like bull****.

Being Chinese it is easy to spot, when Chinese are lying, just for saving face and making them look better. ESPECIALLY against Japanese. It's horrible, because I believe martial art is about fighting, not FABRICATING fighting storys.

Lying, and making up sh1t, does not make me happy, it show that other Chinese still want to act like they are the best, center of martial art world, they have secret, the "old master" cannot be beaten.

Unfortunately this crap will never stop because of Confucian model in part of Chinese society.




Do you have any evidence to support your opinion against Master Wang PeiShen?

Have you being in BeiJing area to know who he was?


See, In the USA, we here belive in Innocent before proven guilty.


And what you post is exactly what the bad folk chinese model, self-rigtheous pointing at other and claiming other to be Guilty until proven innocent.

Note: Confucian doesnt teach those bad fold chinese model. cant blame Confucian for what he is not teaching.




I am also curious to find out what is going on with the Japanese Shao Lin Jee and other challenge.

Why dont you go to Beijing and find out and tell us what is the FACTS not what you think.

Once upon a time, I went to Shang Hai to see Yue Yuan to verify things I think it is important and address.

so, if you serious to find out the facts I suggest you go to Beijing. Otherwise, what is good to speculate?

[Hendrik]

Joy,


Exactly, the Nei kung and Wai Kung are similar to two wings of a bird, both are needed.


These days, the marketing of Street fighter Qi ball to Nei Jia to .....ect get most people into a confusion.


We all have a responsible to clear these up. so that one becomes realistic and pragmatic.

IE. one can said they train in Qigung so and so, but qigung is not everything. if one dont drink one die. can qigung replace drinking? nope. that simple.

One can have all the internal training, but also have to subject to law of nature.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, 我真服了。

为了面子，咱们中国人什么破烂儿都能鞭出来。 。 。

你真敢信这片文章？

我不吧你当做傻瓜，所以，你应该明白！

完全是中国人在自以为是，瞧不起日本人。

我也读过一片文章说八极拳打败了泰拳。后来，人们发现了那整个故事多是瞎编的！




1, This is an internaltional forum and I am an American, It would be appreciated if you use English as communication language.

2, There are con man and honest man in all races and all nations. Until one has the evidence one cant simply call every Chinese Matial artists con man.

3, could you please share with us who you are and what style of kungfu you practice? who is your sifu? so we know you better? where do you learn TCMA? and how long?

[SimonM]

This is an international forum and I am a Canadian, it would be appreciated if all posts were duplicated in French and English.

(Actually I'm just kidding. My point, however, is that as it is an INTERNATIONAL forum, particularly one with a lot of participation from Chinese people we can occasionally expect posts in languages other than English.)

People who communicate in other languages should furthermore understand that not everybody speaks their language and those who can not will not be effectively communicated with.

[Hendrik]

People who communicate in other languages should furthermore understand that not everybody speaks their language and those who can not will not be effectively communicated with.


That is the point.

[Yoshiyahu]

In my opinion all Kung fu is neither one or other. All Gung Fu has elements of both. Now how you practice may differ. Some may practice their art softer with less force. An another may practice it harder with more force. Does this make your art external or internal? Thats the real Question?

Does use of Chi and Chi cultivation make an art Internal or External?


Is Chi Gung internal?

Is the Chen Form external or external?

Is Fajin external or internal?

It depends on the fighter!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my opinion all Kung fu is neither one or other. All Gung Fu has elements of both. Now how you practice may differ. Some may practice their art softer with less force. An another may practice it harder with more force. Does this make your art external or internal? Thats the real Question?

Does use of Chi and Chi cultivation make an art Internal or External?


Is Chi Gung internal?

Is the Chen Form external or external?

Is Fajin external or internal?

It depends on the fighter!!!!

You were right in the beginning, all kung fu has both.
There is no "distinction" unless you make one.
All "hard" becomes "soft" and all "soft" needs "hard".

[Yoshiyahu]

Well thank you for your response...wow something we agree on?


So whats with the crap of distinctions?



You were right in the beginning, all kung fu has both.
There is no "distinction" unless you make one.
All "hard" becomes "soft" and all "soft" needs "hard".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well thank you for your response...wow something we agree on?


So whats with the crap of distinctions?

Marketing.
:D

[Vajramusti]

Marketing.
:D[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------

More to it than marketing. There are differences in development and achievements.
Wing chun is very uneven in quality control FWIW IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[Violent Designs]

1, This is an internaltional forum and I am an American, It would be appreciated if you use English as communication language.

2, There are con man and honest man in all races and all nations. Until one has the evidence one cant simply call every Chinese Matial artists con man.

3, could you please share with us who you are and what style of kungfu you practice? who is your sifu? so we know you better? where do you learn TCMA? and how long?

So why are you scared to respond in Chinese. Don't disrespect your own language now.

Oh wait you are an "American." :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

So why are you scared to respond in Chinese. Don't disrespect your own language now.

Oh wait you are an "American." :rolleyes:




1,
IT is equally respect either one is Chinese or American or Canadian or German or Malaysian or Japanese or citizen of any country in this earth.

I am an American and my Chinese is not as Good as my English.
So, it is wrong to ask you politely to communicate in English?


2,
if there is nothing to hide, there is no need to use Chinese language while most people here dont read Chinese.

That is about consideration on others in this big international Earth Family.






BTW. if you are not interested in the topic, please ignore this threat.

[Yoshiyahu]

Where is the Threat?



1,
IT is equally respect either one is Chinese or American or Canadian or German or Malaysian or Japanese or citizen of any country in this earth.

I am an American and my Chinese is not as Good as my English.
So, it is wrong to ask you politely to communicate in English?


2,
if there is nothing to hide, there is no need to use Chinese language while most people here dont read Chinese.

That is about consideration on others in this big international Earth Family.






BTW. if you are not interested in the topic, please ignore this threat.

[Hendrik]

Where is the Threat?

Thread, my opps. Sorry.