Sil Lim Tau Applications? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Yoshiyahu

03-23-2009, 06:57 PM

My Sifu is a man who studied under Robert McField and Eddie Mau. He doesn't like me to mention his name because he know longer teaches the WC to newcomers and doesn't want any challenges. But he does teach Tai Chi now and health aspects. We still go over Chi Sau every week and he refines me on certain things I need in my WC now. I was 16 when I first started learning WC from him. I studied regularly up until about when I was 22 years old. Maybe a little older Don't remember. I studied off and on after that. Kinda of down period. Just pretty much worked out on my own for awhile and with my other WC brothers. Sparred people here and there to get experience to find out what works and doesn't work. Now I usually see my Sifu on Week ends.

Also I study with my Sifu's big brother last year....

I agree my Sifu says the applications are infinite. Some of them I have been taught are a little different than your lineage but most of applications will be similiar.

Let me start off with sharing my favorite applications.

Near the end you have bong sau-tan sau-tok sau.

One application is you Bong Sau an straight punch an then Tan or lop sau. Another application is you Tok Sau the opponents leading arm by lifting up from the elbow while striking with the other hand.

Another application i love is Pak Sau Man sau some lineages do

Pak-Man-Punch
others do
Pak-Man-Palmstrike

But in either case you could pak sau one punch and man sau the next punch with the same hand. So you use one hand to block two punch combo. Of Course you could follow with a palm,punch,Gee to throat or face.

As for Anerlich if you want personally information...please private message me...I will give you my contact info...

But its useless if your not in St.louis!

There are endless applications of motions from the slt plus the structural and other benefits
from the slt.
Curious Yoshiyahu who is/was your wing chun sifu and how long did you study with your sifu ona regular basis?

joy chaudhuri

anerlich

03-23-2009, 07:17 PM

My Sifu is a man who studied under Robert McField and Eddie Mau. He doesn't like me to mention his name because he know longer teaches the WC to newcomers and doesn't want any challenges.

LOL, sounds like all Wing Chun in St Louis is done in underground secret societies and by invitation only run by retired masters who are now in witness protection with secret identities.

please private message me.

That would be useless and not only because I'm not in St Louis.

Yoshiyahu

03-24-2009, 06:54 AM

Yea it does sound that way. I am not awaiting to join the Pak Mei secret society in St.louis but have not met any practioners. But any way. Anerlich. can you share some of your opinions or what you learn as way of applications of Sil Lim Tao. I think this discussion would be a more useful one other then getting to know me on a more personal note?

So hey guys any time your ready please share some of your applications?

For instance:

When you punch and Huen Sau.

One can look at it this way. You punch a guy who intercepts and grabs your wrist and before he can apply a lock or chin na you circle the wrist and then free your hand or reverse the lock.

What are some other Applications of SLT?

LOL, sounds like all Wing Chun in St Louis is done in underground secret societies and by invitation only run by retired masters who are now in witness protection with secret identities.

That would be useless and not only because I'm not in St Louis.

dnovice

03-24-2009, 07:03 AM

When you punch and Huen Sau.

One can look at it this way. You punch a guy who intercepts and grabs your wrist and before he can apply a lock or chin na you circle the wrist and then free your hand or reverse the lock.

How about you punch, he paks, you huen sau (spelling???) and punch again. (continuous attack.)

or you punch, he paks, and you huen sau and lop if his hand is still there.

The options are limitless.

Vajramusti

03-24-2009, 08:22 AM

My Sifu is a man who studied under Robert McField and Eddie Mau.
((Dont know them...))

I agree my Sifu says the applications are infinite. Some of them I have been taught are a little different than your lineage but most of applications will be similiar.

((How would you know what my "lineage" does or doesn't do?))

Let me start off with sharing my favorite applications.

((BTW-I try not to depend only on favorites-important to work on motions that you are not good at. I try to be non attached to any favorites-of course that's an ideal. In the real world a favorite can get you into trouble specially when the other fella(s) know(s) what you are likely to do!!))

Near the end you have bong sau-tan sau-tok sau.

(("You"? Who me? In my slt -towards the end before kuen and tuit sao sections there is-
bong /tan and pau. There is tok sao in the mok jong. There are lots of "adjustments" in applications.SLT is about mastery of motions in addition to developing key concepts, structure and awareness. Total body dynamics and things like distance and position and timing changes details))

One application is you Bong Sau an straight punch an then Tan or lop sau. Another application is you Tok Sau the opponents leading arm by lifting up from the elbow while striking with the other hand.

((careful-if you bong sao before a punch-you can get hit-specially if the other hand is not there
to provide support. I don't think that you can bong sao my jab. Of course I could be wrong!!))

Another application i love is Pak Sau Man sau some lineages do

Pak-Man-Punch
others do
Pak-Man-Palmstrike

((man sao is asking hand- without seeing a pic or something- I have no idea how you use it))

But in either case you could pak sau one punch and man sau the next punch with the same hand.
((there is that man sao again- do you mean wu?))

So you use one hand to block two punch combo. Of Course you could follow with a palm,punch,Gee to throat or face.
(("Of course"?Your opponent may not allow that pre-meditated sequence!))

As for Anerlich if you want personally information...please private message me...I will give you my contact info...

But its useless if your not in St.louis!

((I (Joy) have been in St Louis-used to have relatives and friends there- some moved others went to happy hunting grounds-been to the river, the arch and the zoo...not planning to be there in the near future. Joy Chaudhuri)))

SimonM

03-24-2009, 08:43 AM

couch

03-24-2009, 09:28 AM

LSWCTN1

03-24-2009, 10:42 AM

For instance:

When you punch and Huen Sau.

One can look at it this way. You punch a guy who intercepts and grabs your wrist and before he can apply a lock or chin na you circle the wrist and then free your hand or reverse the lock.

What are some other Applications of SLT?

just quickly

the lee shing lineage snt that i have been taught int he 1st section has punch, tan, huen, fingers 'scrape' to eyes. in theabove scenario:

punch is blocked with a tan. you perform huen sau to get around it and are stopped whilst still on the outside. the finger scrape is done and hopefully catches the eye! might not end the fight but it will (at least momentarily) end his vision) it also has a use for when you use bui sau and it is compromised by you either attacking the wrong space, or them trapping your movement.

will possibly share a bit more later...

Yoshiyahu

03-24-2009, 11:10 AM

After some research I was able to ascertain that Robert McField was a student of one Eddie Ma.

This link may be relevant; uncertain as I can not view Youtube from work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNm8HW8mL5c)

However the text that pops up in Google states

Compare to

I can not find any reference to an Eddie Mau.

I did find this: But I don't know how relevant a link from a previous thread is. (https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-46987.html)

Okay as for Your search and so forth...Eddie Mau lineage is from the Yuen Kay San. If you see the forms and some of the basics you will realize that...As for secrets. Some guys don't care for head knowledge or lineages. I never really cared about who taught who what and lineage. Just last year I started really inquiring about lineage. I never cared. i just rather learn how to use the system and fight with it and cultivate energy and skill....That has been by focus on the past decade....

((I (Joy) have been in St Louis-used to have relatives and friends there- some moved others went to happy hunting grounds-been to the river, the arch and the zoo...not planning to be there in the near future. Joy Chaudhuri)))

Well if you ever in St.louis email me kohen_hagadol@yahoo.com

SNT is not about applications, per se.

As I've written before, IMO, SNT is for reprogramming the brain/body to use the elbow and ingrain certain structural positions. I find that there are few 'applications' such as one move following another move that can be used in a fight.

I agree totally and SLT also helps to develop Short power. But what are some of limitless applications you can think of?

As for following each move systematically in a fight...thats unrealistic. You may use a bong Sau and then punch or kick. You can Tan Sau while punching with the other hand at the same time an also pak da etc. You can use those hands accompanied with kicks or punches. Its not etched in stone. But following each movement verbatim in a fight is not what I meant. But simple applications that can be stated for those who have no idea...not even an inkling of one part of SLT. This way we can demystify SLT making it something others can understand instead of arbritary hand motions.

just quickly

the lee shing lineage snt that i have been taught int he 1st section has punch, tan, huen, fingers 'scrape' to eyes. in theabove scenario:

punch is blocked with a tan. you perform huen sau to get around it and are stopped whilst still on the outside. the finger scrape is done and hopefully catches the eye! might not end the fight but it will (at least momentarily) end his vision) it also has a use for when you use bui sau and it is compromised by you either attacking the wrong space, or them trapping your movement.

will possibly share a bit more later...

Thank you very much you are one the few who actually shared what this thread is really about thank you...

SimonM

03-24-2009, 11:28 AM

Okay as for Your search and so forth...Eddie Mau lineage is from the Yuen Kay San. If you see the forms and some of the basics you will realize that...As for secrets. Some guys don't care for head knowledge or lineages. I never really cared about who taught who what and lineage. Just last year I started really inquiring about lineage. I never cared. i just rather learn how to use the system and fight with it and cultivate energy and skill....That has been by focus on the past decade....

There were some pretty serious allegations made with regards to Robert McField in the thread I've unearthed. They may be false they may not but you might want to look into them.

With regards to lineage I can only find reference to Yuen Kay San teaching two people; Sum Lung and Wong Jing so the lineage still has some holes. Of course the biggest holes are twofold:

1) your refusal to name YOUR sifu - the most important person other than yourself for the purposes of assessing your training.

2) your referencing of both Robert McField and the person who I suspect is Eddie Ma (as the coincidence of McField teaching the same students as an unknown - Eddie Mau - after being himself taught by (known) Eddie Ma is rather straining of credibility) as instructors of your unnamed Sifu.

Now your instruction seems to include references to much of the bupkiss (powering up chi attacks and such) that underline the worst of McDojos; if this is in fact coming from your teacher and in light of the dirt I got from a short morning of half-hearted digging you might want to consider finding a new instructor.

Preferrably somebody who doesn't pretend to ultra-secret-super-ninja status.

LSWCTN1

03-24-2009, 11:45 AM

SNT is not about applications, per se.

As I've written before, IMO, SNT is for reprogramming the brain/body to use the elbow and ingrain certain structural positions. I find that there are few 'applications' such as one move following another move that can be used in a fight.

on the whole, for the most part, i agree completely

i do think that there can be different ways of performing the same sequence - and i dont just mean fluidity and intent.

this could actually prove to be a very interesting thread if people choose to contribute!

couch

03-24-2009, 12:57 PM

As for following each move systematically in a fight...thats unrealistic. You may use a bong Sau and then punch or kick. You can Tan Sau while punching with the other hand at the same time an also pak da etc. You can use those hands accompanied with kicks or punches. Its not etched in stone. But following each movement verbatim in a fight is not what I meant. But simple applications that can be stated for those who have no idea...not even an inkling of one part of SLT. This way we can demystify SLT making it something others can understand instead of arbritary hand motions.

Thank you very much you are one the few who actually shared what this thread is really about thank you...

I like to think of Wing Chun being as close to boxing as anything. So everything you do is training your punch. All I want to do is hit the guy and protect myself on the way to do it. If my strike is intercepted, I use a WC tool the clear and continue hitting.

I understand what you are looking to discuss, as well. You say, "But simple applications that can be stated for those who have no idea...not even an inkling of one part of SLT."

For this, I won't look to SNT. I will look in two other places: CK and MYJ. In my lineage, they both start off the same: with a Biu. Simple idea is to bridge and the easiest way to do that is to Biu/hit.

Hard topic to talk about. Hope that I'm making sense and am contributing something.

Cheers.

anerlich

03-24-2009, 01:07 PM

I am not awaiting to join the Pak Mei secret society in St.louis but have not met any practioners.

LOL. They mustn't read KFO, otherwise I'm sure they'd be falling all over themselves to get in touch.

Yoshiyahu

03-24-2009, 05:29 PM

There were some pretty serious allegations made with regards to Robert McField in the thread I've unearthed. They may be false they may not but you might want to look into them.

With regards to lineage I can only find reference to Yuen Kay San teaching two people; Sum Lung and Wong Jing so the lineage still has some holes. Of course the biggest holes are twofold:

1) your refusal to name YOUR sifu - the most important person other than yourself for the purposes of assessing your training.

2) your referencing of both Robert McField and the person who I suspect is Eddie Ma (as the coincidence of McField teaching the same students as an unknown - Eddie Mau - after being himself taught by (known) Eddie Ma is rather straining of credibility) as instructors of your unnamed Sifu.

Now your instruction seems to include references to much of the bupkiss (powering up chi attacks and such) that underline the worst of McDojos; if this is in fact coming from your teacher and in light of the dirt I got from a short morning of half-hearted digging you might want to consider finding a new instructor.

Preferrably somebody who doesn't pretend to ultra-secret-super-ninja status.

Well I choose not to name my Sifu because of all the propaganda and BS that went down 20 years ago with McField and other Gung Fu Schools they challenge. As for the credibility of my Sifu,his Sihing and others he fellowships with. I have nothing but the most respect. In fact through him I have learn alot. More useful stuff with him then when I studied Aikido and Judo as a kid.

As for McDojos. My Sifu always says practicing the baiscs diligently is the key. All the other stuff he doesn't Rant and Rave on.

As for lineage...I really could care less. But my question was about applications of SLT? If you have any ideas to applications please share. If not then read another thread?

I like to think of Wing Chun being as close to boxing as anything. So everything you do is training your punch. All I want to do is hit the guy and protect myself on the way to do it. If my strike is intercepted, I use a WC tool the clear and continue hitting.

I understand what you are looking to discuss, as well. You say, "But simple applications that can be stated for those who have no idea...not even an inkling of one part of SLT."

For this, I won't look to SNT. I will look in two other places: CK and MYJ. In my lineage, they both start off the same: with a Biu. Simple idea is to bridge and the easiest way to do that is to Biu/hit.

Hard topic to talk about. Hope that I'm making sense and am contributing something.

Cheers.

Thankyou for your contribution. I started this thread because on another forum I know some people had questions about SLT an the people on that thread really never offered any answers. Also another guy asked me recently about SLT applications. I shared some answers with him. But decided to start this thread as well for him an others like him so he can see a list of applications by others way wiser than me. As for Chum Kiu and Mook Jong applications i will talk about those later. Thanks again for saying something useful.

LOL. They mustn't read KFO, otherwise I'm sure they'd be falling all over themselves to get in touch.

Ha Ha lol...So anerlich do you have any useful applications to share concerning Sil Lim Tau?

Mr Punch

03-24-2009, 05:34 PM

Useful applications from SLT? All of them. Plus the energetics (body mechanics and structure). Broad subject area much?

What exactly are you asking? People to detail each move from SLT and how to use it? Sorry, there's no way of putting this without coming off as rude, but you sure do ask a lot of stupid questions.

Yoshiyahu

03-24-2009, 05:46 PM

Oh okay...my bad...I will edit my post a little...

But what I mean is for some of you guys to share a few applications...not the entire form technique by technique break down...But just share one two or three techniques you learned or discovered...

The reason I picked this broad topic...because i felt it would be easy for everyone to contribute...even some newbies to WC!

Sorry for the stupid questions...Just passing the time an sharing info with others on slick tip...

Useful applications from SLT? All of them. Plus the energetics (body mechanics and structure). Broad subject area much?

What exactly are you asking? People to detail each move from SLT and how to use it? Sorry, there's no way of putting this without coming off as rude, but you sure do ask a lot of stupid questions.

anerlich

03-24-2009, 08:29 PM

The crossing, finding the centreline, at the start is similar to the mechanics of the basic cross collar choke in gi (or as Mouthboy108 would call it, the kymono) grappling.

The gum/tan section simulates the action of guillotine choke, hanging choke and several other standing chokes.

The fut sao section (eye sweeps) have applications for cutting armbars and the like.

Grappling applications in SLT? Well well. Of course just doing the form won't help you apply these in an actual encounter.

You asked for three. Now stop bothering me and return to the search for those St Louis underground fighting clubs.

Liddel

03-25-2009, 12:51 AM

Near the end you have bong sau-tan sau-tok sau.

What a monster topic and were off to rocky start, my SLT ends with Bong Sau, Joh Sau (like a flat/ horizontal Tan, in shape:rolleyes:) then an upsidedown Palm strike followed by tut sau then lin wan kuen...

Howabout we just start with the obvious useful actions of SLT, Punching !

I find leanring the straight punch to be very useful, my sifu had told me so. :p

Yoshiyahu i find a red flags raised in my mind when people post from others words ie my sifu told me, rather than saying when i sparr or ive found... not sure if its in the wording or perhaps you trained five mins a day for years, making you still hmmmm 'fresh' to Wing Chun.

Just giving you a heads up :o

DREW

bennyvt

03-25-2009, 01:08 AM

a weird application that i haven't heard of anywhere. I was at a club and a crawl broke out. My mate was goesoou facing me. A guy ran and king hit him. When he tried to hit him while on the ground i jumped in with a right tan sao to his right punch. I was still standing on his right. So we ended up with both right arms linked. To finish he ripped off his shirt(like hulk hogan) and screamed. He started throwing punches and i **** myself and just blocked. I didnt even throw a punch, bad vt anyway he stopped when his mate hit me from the side and broke my nose. I had only been training about four months so a big group of massive new zealanders sacred the pants off me

Phil Redmond

03-26-2009, 05:12 AM

Vajramusti

03-26-2009, 06:47 AM

Vajramusti

03-26-2009, 09:23 AM

Mr Punch

03-26-2009, 10:47 AM

My answer disappeared. Oh well.

Yoshiyahu

03-26-2009, 11:17 AM

I've asked two professors of Chinese who are native speakers over the years what the characters for Siu (small/little), Nihm (thought/concept), Tauh (head) mean. One I aksed in Detroit and the one teaches Mandarin at our NJ school. They both gave very similar answers and used the word "epiphany".
I asked them both why Chinese Sifu used "small/little idea". One of them said that just because a person speaks a lenguage it doesn't make them academicaly literate. The other professor said that maybe the Sifus didn't have a good comprehension of English. What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8

My answer disappeared. Oh well.

What did you say Mr Punch?

Phil,
Sil = Small or Little

Lim = concept or thought

Tauh = Head

So wouldn't Small Concept head be the correct translation. An since english speakers would have a hard time understanding the purpose of the usage head. Wouldn't Little concept or small thought also be okay...

How does the translation alter the actual meaning if its not completely accurate.

For instance there are many hebrew words in bible that have never been translated correctly into english but just replaced. Like the name of the father and son. The word Worship is mistranslated and praise is often mistranslated too.

But please share what would be better translation?

Sil Lim Tao

Small Concept Head?
Small Thought Head?
Little Concept Head?
Little Thought Head?

Small Head Thought?
Small Head Concept?
Little Head Concept?
Little Head Thought?

Small Idea?
Little Idea?

A synomym for Thought and Concept is "Idea"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thought[2]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concept

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idea

Matrix

03-26-2009, 03:41 PM

What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8Hey Phil,
I like the "home key" analogy. Nice one. :cool:

Cheers,
Bill

Matrix

03-26-2009, 03:46 PM

But please share what would be better translation?

Sil Lim Tao

Small Concept Head?
Small Thought Head?
Little Concept Head?
Little Thought Head?

Small Head Thought?
Small Head Concept?
Little Head Concept?
Little Head Thought?

Small Idea?
Little Idea?

Seems to be much ado about nothing, IMO. If you decide on one translation over the other, what difference will it make in your training? Or in the results of that training? Maybe it's just me.

Phil Redmond

03-26-2009, 04:27 PM

Phil- perhaps unintentionally your two sources pointed to some important things.

PS. The first meanings of epiphany are tied up with Christianity but there is a broader and more secular meaning..,."...intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple , homely. or commonplace occurrence or experience."
Unabridged Webster.

pps-self defense includes being able to fight but also knowing the how, the when and why of one's kung fu. Not only to fight well but knowing when to fight and when not to fight.

Even the non literati can give important insights.

joy chaudhuri
Very good points Joy. Most words have an etymological meaning and a common usage meaning. When you and I were kids a hoe was only a garden tool. ;)
One definition of epiphany is:
"a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience".
That was the way they were using the word. We could also say sudden insight, aha. In fact my friend in Detroit used 'aha'
With regard to the spelling of Chinese words there will be variations. Some write Ip Man some write Yip Man. Some write VT, WT, WC. Regardless of he Westerners spell it Ip is pronounced Yip and VT, WT are all pronounced Wing Cheun. You wrote head as tao and that's as good as tauh. Since I learned Yale Romanization of Cantonese I tend to use that method. The 'h' in tauh simply denotes that the character in is the lower register.

Phil Redmond

03-26-2009, 04:29 PM

Hey Phil,
I like the "home key" analogy. Nice one. :cool:

Cheers,
Bill
Thanks, I even added that it didn't matter if you used qwerty or dvorak. :D

CFT

03-26-2009, 05:23 PM

YY, forget about the "head". Nim Tau/Lim Tau (same thing) is the compound word - you don't separate it. So the translation is little "something", but what is that "something"?

It could be thought, idea, concept, awakening, awareness. Just as the other posters have expanded upon.

Mr Punch

03-26-2009, 05:24 PM

What did you say Mr Punch?I wrote a long detailed answer and posted it on the thread and it disappeared. Glitch in the matrix...?

For the first part (that I posted):

the crossing of hands at the beginning of SLT is, in some versions, purely an energetic training method for if your hands are trapped/shoved and you need to raise them straight up through your opponent's hands. We practise it with no resistance, and then with progressive resistance (if you're good at it it doesn't make any difference what's on the end of it, you just focus on your structure and body mechanics and let it take care of itself - I'm not that good yet, except on occasion). It's a standard reflex for us.

Oddly enough, because you're not bothered about what happens to them, it can sometimes turn into the collar choke Andrew was talking about.

Phil Redmond

03-26-2009, 05:32 PM

Phil Redmond

03-26-2009, 05:33 PM

I wrote a long detailed answer and posted it on the thread and it disappeared. Glitch in the matrix...?

For the first part (that I posted):

the crossing of hands at the beginning of SLT is, in some versions, purely an energetic training method for if your hands are trapped/shoved and you need to raise them straight up through your opponent's hands. We practise it with no resistance, and then with progressive resistance (if you're good at it it doesn't make any difference what's on the end of it, you just focus on your structure and body mechanics and let it take care of itself - I'm not that good yet, except on occasion). It's a standard reflex for us.

Oddly enough, because you're not bothered about what happens to them, it can sometimes turn into the collar choke Andrew was talking about.
In some lineages it defines the central line. I also have a book by Yip Chun where he shows it defining a line.

Genetic

03-26-2009, 06:13 PM

Yoshiyahu your original question about sharing applications of SNT I would say that your question itself highlights your lack of understanding of SNT desptite your years of training wing chun. You have somehow allong your wing chun journey missed what SNT actually is.

I liked Phil Redmonds concept of epiphany. I keep having little epiphanies when I practice SNT. But they are not about applications. They are about structure or energy or concepts.

SNT is not about applications. If you see or think of it in terms of applications I think that you have missed the point.

The dummy form is about applications. Drills are about applications.

The 3 hand forms. They are conceptual and through practice reveal themselves. But not in set application sequences.

I think you may have got wing chun mixed up with Karate and its forms confused with Katas...

The best advise I could give you would be to stop questioning so much, stop trying to rationalise and formalise wing chun, and start to begin to understand it.

I hate to quote Bruce Lee, but I cant help it in this scenario. Dont think. Feel.

Vajramusti

03-26-2009, 06:15 PM

Doh ! ! I didn't think of awakening or awareness. Thanks CFT.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil-That's what I said in my first of two consecutive posts per below

"One of the purposes of the sil lim tao( an old name for the form) is to get started on the road to awareness- (epiphanies can involve heightened awareness) one idea at a time."

thanks also to CFT for the note on the word combination.

joy chaudhuri

Genetic

03-26-2009, 06:19 PM

In some lineages it defines the central line. I also have a book by Yip Chun where he shows it defining a line.

And not just a line, my Sifu has explained how it defines the postion of your structure according to your own body shape. It defines the position of your tan, gaun etc according to your natuaral body mechanics for your shape and size.

So a big wide guy will have a different shape to a skinny narrow shouldered guy etc....and the position for them will be defined by this opening movement.

Its obviously an important movement, as it is at the start of all 3 hand forms, before punching, which starts and ends all of the hand forms, with punching being of obvious importance.

Yoshiyahu

03-28-2009, 11:51 AM

Seems to be much ado about nothing, IMO. If you decide on one translation over the other, what difference will it make in your training? Or in the results of that training? Maybe it's just me.

I agree. I believe understanding applications in the three forms will heighten your training and open more understanding for you.

Very good points Joy. Most words have an etymological meaning and a common usage meaning. When you and I were kids a hoe was only a garden tool. ;)
One definition of epiphany is:
"a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience".
That was the way they were using the word. We could also say sudden insight, aha. In fact my friend in Detroit used 'aha'
With regard to the spelling of Chinese words there will be variations. Some write Ip Man some write Yip Man. Some write VT, WT, WC. Regardless of he Westerners spell it Ip is pronounced Yip and VT, WT are all pronounced Wing Cheun. You wrote head as tao and that's as good as tauh. Since I learned Yale Romanization of Cantonese I tend to use that method. The 'h' in tauh simply denotes that the character in is the lower register.

How does utilizing different definitions and meanings and pronunications improve your ability to use your Wing Chun?

YY, forget about the "head". Nim Tau/Lim Tau (same thing) is the compound word - you don't separate it. So the translation is little "something", but what is that "something"?

It could be thought, idea, concept, awakening, awareness. Just as the other posters have expanded upon.

I am not big on terminology as some. It has it place of course. But my main focus is discussing the ephipanies we have had with the applications of Sil Lim Tao.

I wrote a long detailed answer and posted it on the thread and it disappeared. Glitch in the matrix...?

For the first part (that I posted):

the crossing of hands at the beginning of SLT is, in some versions, purely an energetic training method for if your hands are trapped/shoved and you need to raise them straight up through your opponent's hands. We practise it with no resistance, and then with progressive resistance (if you're good at it it doesn't make any difference what's on the end of it, you just focus on your structure and body mechanics and let it take care of itself - I'm not that good yet, except on occasion). It's a standard reflex for us.

Oddly enough, because you're not bothered about what happens to them, it can sometimes turn into the collar choke Andrew was talking about.

Mr Punch thank you for sharing what this forum is really about.

This thread was designed to discuss Sil Lim Tao and how it can be adapted or broken down to train different techniques used in fighting or combat. Many on here must not know about its applications. I say this is due either to training,mistraining or just fanciful beliefs that the forms only have one purpose.

I can see Punch you may be one of the few WC people who actually uses his art.

Yoshiyahu your original question about sharing applications of SNT I would say that your question itself highlights your lack of understanding of SNT desptite your years of training wing chun. You have somehow allong your wing chun journey missed what SNT actually is.

I liked Phil Redmonds concept of epiphany. I keep having little epiphanies when I practice SNT. But they are not about applications. They are about structure or energy or concepts.

SNT is not about applications. If you see or think of it in terms of applications I think that you have missed the point.

The dummy form is about applications. Drills are about applications.

The 3 hand forms. They are conceptual and through practice reveal themselves. But not in set application sequences.

I think you may have got wing chun mixed up with Karate and its forms confused with Katas...

The best advise I could give you would be to stop questioning so much, stop trying to rationalise and formalise wing chun, and start to begin to understand it.

I hate to quote Bruce Lee, but I cant help it in this scenario. Dont think. Feel.

I have had epiphanies on how to use certain aspects of the form while fighting?

It is true the Dummy is for fighting application. But its also the true the dummy is developing proper use of power and also for improving Wing Chun body structure.

Sil Lim Tao also helps with body structure and muslce memory. But so do drills. Drills are for body structure and building proper alignment. SLT also develops Short power. It is responsible for cultivating Chi.

But you must realize all three forms are Dictionary of sorts of various techniques of your WC system.

My Sifu often stressed drilling the various techniques in SLT. This will further increase your muslce memory ingraining the technique in your Psyche.

As for fighting. many of the techniques in SLT can be used in actual combat. I can not see why you do not believe so. Do you not use these techniques in Chi Sau? Your disbelief in SLT being used in actual defense situtations is confusing. Do you guys expect to use your WC or do you practice it as a novelty.

As for lack of knowledge. If you do not understand the applications of SLT or disbelieve that SLT has applications than I fear for you. I hope you are new WCchunner. Some advice. Check out videos by

Augustine Fong

Wong Shun Leung

These two show applications of Sil Lim Tau...

Where they wrong or inexperience?

This is why I am discussing today the different Applications of SLT.

I have learned applications from my Sifu,from practicing on my own. I have also got different opinions from other WC guys from other lineages as well as seeing various applications of SLT on youtube and home videos.

You sir lack understanding of the applications an I suggest you either asked your sifu concerning the applications or you buy books on SLT that show detailed explanition of many applications!

SNT is not about applications

I agree Sil Lim Tao is about Structure,Energy,concepts. it also about Chi cultivation and much more. But just because you do not have insights outside of structure, energy and concepts doesn't mean SLT doesn't have applications.

True SLT is fixed or set sequence. But drills are also a fixed or set sequence. But the understanding comes when you realize how to turn a fixed sequence in to a flowing application. In other words the way you do SLT or a Drill is not how you will use it exactly when free sparring or doing random chi sau?

You must flow, adapt and innovate!

This is the key. I am sad you do not understand the applications my friend...Keep practicing maybe one day your mind will open up to the applications!

Katsu Jin Ken

03-28-2009, 06:32 PM

Siu Nim Tao is like an acronym sortof like K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid), when i think SNT i think Keep structure and simplicity at the early stages now i have the structure just trying not be be fancy with it and have no flow in san sau.

Im not really fond of writing applications if i had a camera (cant buy one laidoff at the moment) id be more than happy to post pictures

anyone that has so good app. pics or vids, i prefer to see you all not vids of "my sifu's sifu's 3rd cousin on his momma side" im getting pretty tired of watching the "more well known" sifu's out there.

anerlich

03-28-2009, 09:20 PM

Mr Punch thank you for sharing what this forum is really about.

Abusing fellow knuckleheads you're never going to meet in the flesh?

Yoshiyahu

03-29-2009, 12:38 PM

Anerlich how am i abusing you knuckleheads?

Abusing fellow knuckleheads you're never going to meet in the flesh?

Yea videos of applications would be the best...i guess it would be cool to have a video thread going on too some kinda of way...

I dont have a digtial camera...for those in the U.S.A. what would be a reasonable price for a digital camera that can take pretty clear vids and also cover enough space to see one doing SLT CK and BJ? In other words all three hand forms.

Siu Nim Tao is like an acronym sortof like K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid), when i think SNT i think Keep structure and simplicity at the early stages now i have the structure just trying not be be fancy with it and have no flow in san sau.

Im not really fond of writing applications if i had a camera (cant buy one laidoff at the moment) id be more than happy to post pictures

anyone that has so good app. pics or vids, i prefer to see you all not vids of "my sifu's sifu's 3rd cousin on his momma side" im getting pretty tired of watching the "more well known" sifu's out there.

anerlich

03-29-2009, 01:51 PM

Anerlich how am i abusing you knuckleheads?

It was a generalisation.

Yoshiyahu

03-30-2009, 06:58 AM

It was a generalisation.

So anerlich do you study Wing Chun?

Phil Redmond

03-30-2009, 11:09 AM

A little explanation of TWC's Tan and Wu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1WLJRGA3_4

Genetic

03-30-2009, 04:33 PM

You sir lack understanding of the applications an I suggest you either asked your sifu concerning the applications or you buy books on SLT that show detailed explanition of many applications!

Yes, like the double handed fut sao (or fak sao) to simultaneously strike two conveniently placed opponents.

Its a bit weird, but have you noticed how fak/fut sao is used differently in application than in SNT? Because in SNT it is about energy and not application.
In application it is used like in the dummy form. I could go on but am wasting my time already.

But if you say I lack understanding of the applications you must have some good reason for this. Other than my criticism of you missing the point of the form entirely.

You must flow, adapt and innovate!

Or you could trap yourself into set sequences of moves. Shoehorning them into application when that is not really the point....

Its a good idea, but I dont think you understand it.

This is the key. I am sad you do not understand the applications my friend...Keep practicing maybe one day your mind will open up to the applications!

You seem to have some secret source of information about me. Alternatively you are basing your mistruths about me on your misguided perception.

There are many applications of wing chun techniques, lets face it the potential combinations are limitless, so why try to limit them?

Or is this how you cling to understanding, by putting things in arbitary lists?

I've got an application for you. Fighting multiple oponents, one to your left tries a kick, which you stop with a gum sao. One to your right does the same, so you gum sao. Suddenly a third opponent approacehs you from the rear and tries a bear hug, but you quickly retract both arms, lift them with vigour, then bam - double gum sao. A fourth and fifth opponent suddely appears in front of you and both launch simultaneous flying knee strikes to your abdomen. Luckily you have this covered with a forward double gum sao. As they are moving towards you so fast, you quickly raise a double lan sao for cover. The first and second opponents to your sides suddenly wake up and come at you, but you are ready. You guessed it. Double fak sao!!!!! Bam, both of them drop to the floor twitching. Back to double lan sao when a roundhouse kick comes flying at you from the front. Double jum sao. I could go on but it is already absurd. Can you see my point?

No, I didnt think so. The whole second section is about energy.

Ah, but what about the third section, that is about application surely, sequences of moves. Wrong. It is about the movement from one shape to another. Tan moves forward, but also circles to the same position. Have you ever noticed that bong to tan has been missed out? I must be wrong, otherwise the form is incomplete.

But you could think of it in terms of applications, say where you tan, change to guan, back to tan, huen and strike, but by my understanding this would be contrived. This is not the point. It is about transition between the main shapes, and the different types of motion. And structure and energy.

It is not a karate kata!

Im not going to make up any silly applications. I will leave this to you. Good luck with that. It is a strange way to interpret it. Kind of the way it gets presented in books aimed at people with little or no understanding of wing chun. Are these the books that you think I should read? Im simple sequences of static photos. Very useful I am sure.

As to my understanding or comprehension of wing chun, you have no idea, your assumptions are rather pathetic and based on....what exactly?

omarthefish

03-30-2009, 04:39 PM

I've asked two professors of Chinese who are native speakers over the years what the characters for Siu (small/little), Nihm (thought/concept), Tauh (head) mean. One I aksed in Detroit and the one teaches Mandarin at our NJ school. They both gave very similar answers and used the word "epiphany".
I asked them both why Chinese Sifu used "small/little idea". One of them said that just because a person speaks a lenguage it doesn't make them academicaly literate. The other professor said that maybe the Sifus didn't have a good comprehension of English. What ever the reason here is a clip from my 9/08 Toronto seminar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm0pEEK8D8

Wow.

Gotta question how academically literate those professors were or. . . more likely, something got lost in the "translation" of your question. As Yoshiyahu pointed out, a word by word translation does come out to "small-idea-head" but the last two characters are a compound word for "idea".

There's nothing confusing about it at all. The name "siu lum tau" mean "little idea". Trying to separate the "num"and the "tau" into separate words is silly. In Chinese there are characters and there are words. Sometimes a single character is a word and sometimes it combines with another character to create a word just like in English where we combine greek or latin roots. In the case of lumtao (念头), the character "tao" is just a suffix to the core character "num". I don't know what's up with the Chinese speaker you asked but if you go to any off the shelf Chinese dictionary you will find "num tao" or technically "nian-tou" (the standard Mandaring pronounciation) listed there as a single word meaning "an idea".

In fact, the word "nian"/num/念 on it's own without the suffix tau/tou/头 arguably does not mean "idea". Single characters on their own are generally very vague and require context to define their meaning specifically, hence the necessity of the suffix "tau". On it's own, num/nian/念 could mean an idea but the first meaning that would come to mind for a Chinese speaker is "to miss [someone]" or "to think about". However, by adding the suffix tau/tou/头, you change that and make the meaning very specifically "an idea".

Phil Redmond

03-30-2009, 05:10 PM

I just showed the characters to two more people and they concurred with what I was told. I don't read characters well enough to argue with them.

Hendrik

03-30-2009, 09:35 PM

A good song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDC1QeM5Pos

may be from the lyrics one will know the tune of SLT.

...本应属于你的心
它依然护紧我胸口
为只为那峨嵋十二庄后的翻云覆雨手...

omarthefish

03-30-2009, 10:04 PM

I just showed the characters to two more people and they concurred with what I was told. I don't read characters well enough to argue with them.

lol. Well I'd sure argue with them if I was there. I just typed out the two characters for "lum tao" (念头) and asked my girlfriend how she would translate it. She's no college proffesor but she's Chinese. Without hesitating she answered, "An idea".

:confused:

Are asking them what all 3 characters together mean or just asking the last 2 because the parsing makes difference. 小念头 is confusing but 念头 can be found in any dictionary.

Oh well. :D

p.s. I think that translating the whole thing as "epiphany" works just fine. An epiphany is and idea that suddenly comes to you after all. I am just mystified that you would manage to find a Chinese speaker anywhere who did not recognize "lumtao" as a very common, everyday word for “idea".

Yoshiyahu

03-31-2009, 09:39 AM

You keep saying Karate Kata?

What is the purpose of Karate Kata's?

Please enlightening me?

Also where does Karate and Wing Chun have similiar roots?

Yes, like the double handed fut sao (or fak sao) to simultaneously strike two conveniently placed opponents.

Its a bit weird, but have you noticed how fak/fut sao is used differently in application than in SNT? Because in SNT it is about energy and not application.
In application it is used like in the dummy form. I could go on but am wasting my time already.

But if you say I lack understanding of the applications you must have some good reason for this. Other than my criticism of you missing the point of the form entirely.

Or you could trap yourself into set sequences of moves. Shoehorning them into application when that is not really the point....

Its a good idea, but I dont think you understand it.

You seem to have some secret source of information about me. Alternatively you are basing your mistruths about me on your misguided perception.

There are many applications of wing chun techniques, lets face it the potential combinations are limitless, so why try to limit them?

Or is this how you cling to understanding, by putting things in arbitary lists?

I've got an application for you. Fighting multiple oponents, one to your left tries a kick, which you stop with a gum sao. One to your right does the same, so you gum sao. Suddenly a third opponent approacehs you from the rear and tries a bear hug, but you quickly retract both arms, lift them with vigour, then bam - double gum sao. A fourth and fifth opponent suddely appears in front of you and both launch simultaneous flying knee strikes to your abdomen. Luckily you have this covered with a forward double gum sao. As they are moving towards you so fast, you quickly raise a double lan sao for cover. The first and second opponents to your sides suddenly wake up and come at you, but you are ready. You guessed it. Double fak sao!!!!! Bam, both of them drop to the floor twitching. Back to double lan sao when a roundhouse kick comes flying at you from the front. Double jum sao. I could go on but it is already absurd. Can you see my point?

No, I didnt think so. The whole second section is about energy.

Ah, but what about the third section, that is about application surely, sequences of moves. Wrong. It is about the movement from one shape to another. Tan moves forward, but also circles to the same position. Have you ever noticed that bong to tan has been missed out? I must be wrong, otherwise the form is incomplete.

But you could think of it in terms of applications, say where you tan, change to guan, back to tan, huen and strike, but by my understanding this would be contrived. This is not the point. It is about transition between the main shapes, and the different types of motion. And structure and energy.

It is not a karate kata!

Im not going to make up any silly applications. I will leave this to you. Good luck with that. It is a strange way to interpret it. Kind of the way it gets presented in books aimed at people with little or no understanding of wing chun. Are these the books that you think I should read? Im simple sequences of static photos. Very useful I am sure.

As to my understanding or comprehension of wing chun, you have no idea, your assumptions are rather pathetic and based on....what exactly?

Phil Redmond

03-31-2009, 10:19 AM

. . . Are asking them what all 3 characters together mean or just asking the last 2 because the parsing makes difference. 小念头 is confusing but 念头 can be found in any dictionary.

Oh well. :D

p.s. I think that translating the whole thing as "epiphany" works just fine. An epiphany is and idea that suddenly comes to you after all. I am just mystified that you would manage to find a Chinese speaker anywhere who did not recognize "lumtao" as a very common, everyday word for “idea".
Yes, I asked about all three characters together. Thanks for getting me to ask the question again. Life is a constant learning process for me. :)
Anyway, it seems that when all three are used together the meaning is a little different. I'll keep researching though.
PR

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 10:29 AM

OK,

So what is the different between

0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
and
3, WCK's Tan sau?

They all looks the same for me.

and

if we cant clearly and specifically describe the difference in a very simple way. then that means we dont know what is WCK right?

Yoshiyahu

03-31-2009, 11:03 AM

Excellent Post.

OK,

So what is the different between

0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
and
3, WCK's Tan sau?

They all looks the same for me.

and

if we cant clearly and specifically describe the difference in a very simple way. then that means we dont know what is WCK right?

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 11:18 AM

Excellent Post.

Praise the post is useless.

Why dont you answer it?

Genetic

03-31-2009, 11:31 AM

You keep saying Karate Kata?

What is the purpose of Karate Kata's?

Please enlightening me?

Karate Katas are a sequence of movements practiced in the way that they would be used in application against imaginary opponent(s).

Wing chun empty hand forms are a sequence of movements practiced to develop concepts or principles as opposed to applications.

sanjuro_ronin

03-31-2009, 11:36 AM

OK,

So what is the different between

0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
and
3, WCK's Tan sau?

They all looks the same for me.

Blocks aren't always blocks..

Karate Katas are a sequence of movements practiced in the way that they would be used in application against imaginary opponent(s).

Sometimes.

Wing chun empty hand forms are a sequence of movements practiced to develop concepts or principles as opposed to applications.

Sometimes.

I guess karate and WC do have something in common ;)

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 12:22 PM

Blocks aren't always blocks..

this doesnt answer my questions at all.

Phil Redmond

03-31-2009, 12:33 PM

Tan doesn't meet the opponent's limb with force in one specific area of the arm as in some Karate blocks. Tan disperses contact with a limb over a larger surface area of the arm.

sanjuro_ronin

03-31-2009, 01:20 PM

this doesnt answer my questions at all.

Actually, it does.
You said:

So what is the different between

0, Shao Lin's side outward block,
1, Kyokushin's or other karate style's side outward block,
2, White crane of Fujian's Water shape hand,
and
3, WCK's Tan sau?

They all looks the same for me.

They aren't, they can be blocks, strikes or even "other things".

You said:

if we cant clearly and specifically describe the difference in a very simple way. then that means we dont know what is WCK right?

The difference are that they are not the same, HOW they are NOT the same is a different question altogether and one that requires more than a "what's the answer" question because a question liek that is best answered with " It depends".

Yoshiyahu

03-31-2009, 01:23 PM

Karate Katas are a sequence of movements practiced in the way that they would be used in application against imaginary opponent(s).

Wing chun empty hand forms are a sequence of movements practiced to develop concepts or principles as opposed to applications.

I agree that your forms are used to develop concepts and principals. But Karate Katas also are used to develop concepts and principals along with proper distribution of enery and proper structure and alignment along with applications.

I would also contend that Sil Lim Tau trains
1.Internal Power
2.Short Power
3.Structure
4.Applications with an invisible opponent
5.Principals of Center Line
6.Utlizing two hands at once
7.Using one hand at a time

An much more.

SLT does all you say and more!

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 02:08 PM

Actually, it does.
You said:

They aren't, they can be blocks, strikes or even "other things".

You said:

The difference are that they are not the same,

HOW they are NOT the same is a different question altogether and one that requires more than a "what's the answer" question

because a question liek that is best answered with " It depends".

OK, thanks for sharing your view. NOw you know what I am asking.

Could you be more specific on what do you mean by " a question liek that is best answered with " It depends""

not to mention, if it is this gray ( it depends, they are different things....) how do one knows one is training WCK?

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 02:20 PM

I agree that your forms are used to develop concepts and principals. But Karate Katas also are used to develop concepts and principals along with proper distribution of enery and proper structure and alignment along with applications.

I would also contend that Sil Lim Tau trains
1.Internal Power
2.Short Power
3.Structure
4.Applications with an invisible opponent
5.Principals of Center Line
6.Utlizing two hands at once
7.Using one hand at a time

An much more.

SLT does all you say and more!

start from the first one, what is Internal Power? how to train?
What is short power?... what is structure ? ......

Please be specific what are these means?

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 02:35 PM

Tan doesn't meet the opponent's limb with force in one specific area of the arm as in some Karate blocks. Tan disperses contact with a limb over a larger surface area of the arm.

Thanks! Good solid answer.

omarthefish

03-31-2009, 03:44 PM

Back on topic....

Siu Lum Tau is not so much about applications. It mainly:

- teaches angles.
- refines the techniques.
- builds power.

Done right is can totally transform your body but mainly it's purpose seems to be to introduce and refine the entire basic concept of WC. Most people, including WC people, have extremely sloppy angles. They have no sense of "true north". They do not really understand the centerline and how to interact with it and from a WC perspective, have tons of bad habits and Siu Lum Tao is designed to correct all this.

It teaches you how to keep your elbows in and should be teaching you proper hand formation (not that any of the youtube vids show it). The people I know who really work the Siu Lum Tao have a technical precision to their WC that is on a whole nother level.

There's a few straight up applications here and there like the bong->tan->po bai series but I don't think that is the main purpose of SLT. It's main purpose is to improve power and technical precision.

David Peterson

03-31-2009, 04:43 PM

There is more than one way to translate the character 'siu' (xiao) into English, but most only tend to go with the so-called "obvious" one...."small". However, the word can also refer to "young", as in one's younger age, so as a result the entire expression of 'siu nim tau' (xiao niantou) takes on a far more meaningful meaning when translated as "young idea" - this was in fact my late teacher's preferred interpretation.

A "small" idea sounds insignificant, unimportant, ...not really worth taking note of or putting much effort into - besides, what is the difference between a "small" idea and a "big" one??? Surely an idea (or thought) is an idea, plain and simple. On the other hand, a "young" idea conjurs up images of something extremely meaningful, a starting point from which great potential is possible. Whilst I have no issue with the "epiphany" translation, to the average Chinese, the "young idea" makes perfectly good sense as the beginning of great things to come.

'Siu Nim Tau' form is therefore, from the perspective of the WSL Method of Wing Chun, the origin and foundation from which all that makes Wing Chun work as a combat system first begins to take form in both the mind and the body of the practitioner. Like a computer which is full of badly stored or faulty information, we are "re-imaging" our personal "hard-drive" (our mind & body), so as to re-program ourselves with the structures, concepts, strategies, power source, mind-set, "feeling" and "tools" that make up the Wing Chun method and enable us to find our highest potential in the system, eventually leading to personal growth and expression.

Like a young and insignificant sapling, with the right nurturing, it can be transformed into a mighty giant in the forest. Thus, the 'Siu Nim Tau' ("young idea") is the means by which we learn to grow as Wing Chun practitioners.
DMP

Yoshiyahu

03-31-2009, 05:44 PM

I totally agree...There are infinite possible applications found in Sil Lim Tao.

I am overjoyed that a few people shared some of their applications below:

Back on topic....There's a few straight up applications here and there like the bong->tan->po bai series but I don't think that is the main purpose of SLT. It's main purpose is to improve power and technical precision.

There are endless applications of motions from the slt plus the structural and other benefits
from the slt.

joy chaudhuri

So hey guys any time your ready please share some of your applications?

For instance:

When you punch and Huen Sau.

One can look at it this way. You punch a guy who intercepts and grabs your wrist and before he can apply a lock or chin na you circle the wrist and then free your hand or reverse the lock.

What are some other Applications of SLT?

How about you punch, he paks, you huen sau (spelling???) and punch again. (continuous attack.)

or you punch, he paks, and you huen sau and lop if his hand is still there.

The options are limitless.

just quickly

the lee shing lineage snt that i have been taught int he 1st section has punch, tan, huen, fingers 'scrape' to eyes. in theabove scenario:

punch is blocked with a tan. you perform huen sau to get around it and are stopped whilst still on the outside. the finger scrape is done and hopefully catches the eye! might not end the fight but it will (at least momentarily) end his vision) it also has a use for when you use bui sau and it is compromised by you either attacking the wrong space, or them trapping your movement.

will possibly share a bit more later...

Useful applications from SLT? All of them. Plus the energetics (body mechanics and structure). Broad subject area much?

The crossing, finding the centreline, at the start is similar to the mechanics of the basic cross collar choke in gi (or as Mouthboy108 would call it, the kymono) grappling.

The gum/tan section simulates the action of guillotine choke, hanging choke and several other standing chokes.

The fut sao section (eye sweeps) have applications for cutting armbars and the like.

Grappling applications in SLT? Well well. Of course just doing the form won't help you apply these in an actual encounter.

You asked for three. Now stop bothering me and return to the search for those St Louis underground fighting clubs.

What a monster topic and were off to rocky start, my SLT ends with Bong Sau, Joh Sau (like a flat/ horizontal Tan, in shape:rolleyes:) then an upsidedown Palm strike followed by tut sau then lin wan kuen...

Howabout we just start with the obvious useful actions of SLT, Punching !

I find leanring the straight punch to be very useful, my sifu had told me so. :p

DREW

If you have applications for fighting found in Sil Lim Tao please share it?

If you don't any applications then please no need to share!

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 06:10 PM

Done right is can totally transform your body but mainly it's purpose seems to be to introduce and refine the entire basic concept of WC.

.

The issues are what it is and what is right when the world fill with all kind of ideas..

Phil Redmond

03-31-2009, 07:42 PM

. . . . 'Siu Nim Tau' form is therefore, from the perspective of the WSL Method of Wing Chun, the origin and foundation from which all that makes Wing Chun work as a combat system first begins to take form in both the mind and the body of the practitioner. Like a computer which is full of badly stored or faulty information, we are "re-imaging" our personal "hard-drive" (our mind & body), so as to re-program ourselves with the structures, concepts, strategies, power source, mind-set, "feeling" and "tools" that make up the Wing Chun method and enable us to find our highest potential in the system, eventually leading to personal growth and expression.

Like a young and insignificant sapling, with the right nurturing, it can be transformed into a mighty giant in the forest. Thus, the 'Siu Nim Tau' ("young idea") is the means by which we learn to grow as Wing Chun practitioners.
DMP
Si-Bak Wong's explanation was based on his understanding Wing Chun and that isn't a bad thing. But I specifically wanted to ask Chinese scholars who had no knowledge of martial arts or Wing Chun in particular. I only reported the answers I received from them based on the three characters I showed them. Their answers were consistent across the board. What else can I say??

Katsu Jin Ken

03-31-2009, 08:18 PM

ok lets do Chum Kiu

Q. what are the throwing wings towards the end of the form used for?

A.???IMO to train the shifting of weight putting power in the ground.

bakxierboxer

04-01-2009, 02:24 AM

omarthefish

04-01-2009, 03:47 AM

Si-Bak Wong's explanation was based on his understanding Wing Chun and that isn't a bad thing. But I specifically wanted to ask Chinese scholars who had no knowledge of martial arts or Wing Chun in particular. I only reported the answers I received from them based on the three characters I showed them. Their answers were consistent across the board. What else can I say??

That's your two problems right there.

I can see why you would think that presenting the question that way would give you a perhaps....more educated or less prejudiced view but when you get into the linguistics of the thing, you realize that that's just a good way to guarantee that you will get an UNeducated answer and one that makes no sense.

Problem 1.
The term "Siu Lum Tao" is a title. It's not a word at all. By removing the context you remove the reader's (the Chinese professors in this case) ability to make any sense of the collection of characters. The best you can hope for is a very literal reading which is really the absolute worst kind. It's the kind of reading that leads to all the Chinglish errors that I actually like to collect as a hobby because they are so comically wrong. Things like this:

Problem 2.
You have a parsing error. It is not 3 words. It is 2. It should be read Siu lum-tao. Get it? If you give those same people just the last two characters to read/translate, 念头, I guarantee that they will readily identify the term.

Chinese words are defined by context. Unlike English, there are no spaces between the words to indicate where one word ends and another begins. It'snotasconfusingasonemightthink. Ifyoureanativespeakeryoujustgetusedtoit. But by presenting two words as_one you have, in effect, asked them:

What does 'asone' mean?

Would you recognize the "word" asone without any context?

CFT

04-01-2009, 05:11 AM

Phil Redmond

04-01-2009, 05:14 AM

. . . .
Problem 1.
The term "Siu Lum Tao" is a title. It's not a word at all. . . .
I studied Cantonese for three years in college so I know that Chinese is monosyllabic.
And actually I prefer to use nihm as opposed to lim/lum. But thanks anyway.

CFT

04-01-2009, 05:23 AM

I studied Cantonese for three years in college so I know that Chinese is monosyllabic.
And actually I prefer to use nihm as opposed to lim/lum. But thanks anyway.Phil, we're dinosaurs. The way of the future is "lim" due to the growth in lazy sounds (lahn yum).

LSWCTN1

04-01-2009, 05:26 AM

Even with the martial context it may mean nothing; you really need to know that it is Wing Chun Kuen's first form and that all the other forms "develop" on the idea(s) in the first form.

Question for David Peterson: "Wouldn't the character for 'siu' (young) be the other one"? e.g. the "shao" in Shaolin.

i know i may get on peoples ignore list for this but here goes...

WSl was a very accomplished wc player, and i use him in this example as the quote above ties in with my example

whether WSL had it right or wrong, for my argument, is irrelevant. even before his time there was practitioners who where not scholars. therefore they only spoke chinese and didnt write it

the post above highlights what i am trying to say: as sui lim sounds like shaolin when pronounced could sui lim tao not have meant the Shaolin Way originally and not young/little idea?

just because the characters now spell little idea, did the phrase always mean that? before the practitioners where scholars it would have only been propogated through the spoken word. which is, of course, open to interpretation - as the above quote shows. once it became written, what is to say that the interpretation was not correct?

CFT

04-01-2009, 06:02 AM

LSWCTN1, interesting ideas. I think our American cousins will LOL if we propose that "Siu Nim Tau" = Shaolin Do (Just do a search on these forums). ;)

I think the query about the literacy of previous generations of WCK practitioners is not well founded. If we only consider the Yip Man lineage, we can safely trace back to the Red Boat opera troupe. I would find it hard to believe that the actors were not literate, though it is a possibility - oral traditions and all that.

However, Leung Jan should have been literate and certainly Yip Man was. Question mark about Chan Wah Sun, but he was a businessman (money changer). It is possible that Yip Man's early students in the Restaurant Worker's union may not have been literate, but I think WSL was - I've seen photos of his calligraphy.

LSWCTN1

04-01-2009, 07:12 AM

i understand that Yip Man, being almost a nobleman, was literate - and i wasnt suggesting that WSL wasnt either - my point was that if the written word is so 'final' but yet still has so many interpretations, surely the pronounciation could have been the way i suggested?

it was my understanding that the people of the opera boats where considered (no disrespect intended) lower than or similar to prostitutes and beggars. considered to be pirates too - i think i got this from that 'angry Chinese man' Bawang? (please correct me if i am wrong!):confused:

if the above was true - they almost certainly would have been illeterate, no?

shaolin do - lol, i didnt think of that! :D

it was just a thought i had when a poster called 'Kevin' was writing about words that sound simmilar on here - he was rubbished because the characters where different. i wa wondering abnout what the pronounciation was before the characters where used.

whether or not the art came from shaolin i dont know - but that was the roumor that was propogated. possibly to throw authorities off the trail. possibly for initial credability. 'the way of shaolin' would tie in with this though... i think....

sanjuro_ronin

04-01-2009, 07:14 AM

Or course it could simply be a case of WSL WC being HIS WC and Yip Man's WC being HIS WC.

Yoshiyahu

04-01-2009, 09:22 AM

Lets not forget...different chinese out of hong kong may have different dialects. But anyway...back on topic...

Has any one seen the applications presented by Wong Shun Leung.

Phil Redmond

04-01-2009, 10:36 AM

i

the post above highlights what i am trying to say: as sui lim sounds like shaolin when pronounced could sui lim tao not have meant the Shaolin Way originally and not young/little idea?
Tao (way/path) is pronounced Do in Cantonese. Head is pronounced Tauh. They sound completely different. Now I'll get back on track

Phil Redmond

04-01-2009, 10:53 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8&feature=related

sanjuro_ronin

04-01-2009, 10:58 AM

Yoshiyahu

04-01-2009, 11:14 AM

Every form can be apllied in fighting, one way or another and typically every "move" can have various applications.
Even forms that weren't develop for fighting can be used for fighting just as fighting forms can be used for "other" things ( QiGong for example).
You can translate a weapons form to empty hand and a empty handed one to weapons.
And so forth and so on.

I never thought I would find my self agreeing with you...But you are absolutely correct. Thats one of the benefits of MMA guys is they train to fight. So what ever Kung Fu they know they use it for fighting an not just show or demostrations. Whats wrong with TCMA now and days. Everyone is demostrating unrealistically. A boxer doesn't show his skill by jumping rope or hitting a heavy bag. He shows you his skill by hitting you. He spars. But everyone else wants to do unrealistic demostrations to show their art is special.

Yea, I cant wait for my finaces to be right so i can test my WC at local MMA school daily. Atleast those guys train to fight and see applications.

sanjuro_ronin

04-01-2009, 11:32 AM

I never thought I would find my self agreeing with you

That's because you seem to believe in things that you HOPE are real as opposed to find out for yourself IF they are real.

I will tell you this:
I have been doing MA, TCMA and JMA, for 30 years, I have done them in Canada, Europe and Macao, I have been around the block and TESTED what I was shown, what I was told and I have TESTED those that told me.
Until YOU have done the same you will always be wondering and not knowing.

omarthefish

04-01-2009, 04:25 PM

Amazing how commited folks are to making a simple thing complex.

I studied Cantonese for three years in college so I know that Chinese is monosyllabic.
And actually I prefer to use nihm as opposed to lim/lum. But thanks anyway.

The characters are monosyllabic. The words are not. For example, "kung fu". 2 characters, one word. And actually I prefer to use "nian" as I am a mandarin speaker but if we were on a Chinese board and discussing this in written Chinese, there would be no difference in how we wrote it.

it was my understanding that the people of the opera boats where considered (no disrespect intended) lower than or similar to prostitutes and beggars. considered to be pirates too - i think i got this from that 'angry Chinese man' Bawang? (please correct me if i am wrong!):confused:

if the above was true - they almost certainly would have been illeterate, no?

No. Not likely. As "artists" they would most likely be literate. Very difficult to study Chinese poetry and songs and stuff without being able to read or write. Actors in old Europe were of a low social class too but Shakespeare's troupe would have still needed to learn their lines.

Lets not forget...different chinese out of hong kong may have different dialects. But anyway...back on topic...

That only affects how we romanize the terms. Regardless of what dialect is spoken the first WC form is still called 小念头 (got no traditional characters installed on this computer but you get the idea).

bennyvt

04-02-2009, 02:00 AM

the wsl video has some problems with as in notes out me sequence. Wsl had a migrane and wasn't well. The editor took stuff and mixed it up wrong. Wsl was so ****ed he wouldn't do the rest me the series. Still looks great but

LSWCTN1

04-02-2009, 02:47 AM

Tao (way/path) is pronounced Do in Cantonese. Head is pronounced Tauh. They sound completely different. Now I'll get back on track

bang goes my little theory then!

Katsu Jin Ken

04-02-2009, 02:18 PM

Hendrik

04-02-2009, 03:26 PM

What applications?

if the answer of what is the different between the Shao Lin Karate side outward block, the white crane of fujian water hand, and Wing Chun Tan sau is not clear.

Such a simple question and simple answer. it is just a basic test to see if one know what one is practicing. not to mention, when meeting those opponents at least one knows what the opponent in other style is going to do....

southern Shao Lin or Karate block ----> targeting to have a perpendicular intercept to move the opponent's attack strick (ie middle punch) off coast. thus, the style of crispy blow.

White Crane of Fujian ----> using the twisted and flipping momentum to scatter/shock/bounce the foundation of the opponents. Thus, the style of shocking body.

Wing Chun Tan Sau ----> guiding to redirect the opponents for opening the target. Thus, the style of gently subdue the enermy within inches.

looking similar shape, but Different style, different ideas, different Jin.

three styles three differnt concept three different types of jin three type of signature.
These are three type of Kuen Faat.

How difficult is that? without these knowledge doing SLT/SNT a wrong ideas is like cooking sand trying to hope for rice.

just basic WCK 101 boy.

omarthefish

04-02-2009, 04:45 PM

Thank you for that wonderful display of ignorance of the workings of southern Shaolin.

That's right, southern Shaolin and "Karate" employ the same mechanics.

Better off just attempting to describe the things you actually know. As far as I am concerned, WC is southern Shaolin. It certainly takes it's apocryphal history from there. But leaving the storytelling aside, from a technical standpoint, I have not been able to find much of anything different at all in WC from that most classic of all southern Shaolin styles, Hung Gar. WC is basically just small frame Hung Gar. Same moves, same stances, same names of moves except that Hung Gar seems to have imported a fair bit of the long arm movements of Lama Pai. Even the Iron Wire form, by some accounts, was created by Ng Mui. The best Siu Lum Tao I have seen so far (meaning performed by the most powerful and technically most precise practitioners) is done in the same style as Iron Wire.

Just take Hung Gar, shrink it down and play it mostly with a narrow pidgeon toed stance (ba zi ma in Hung Gar terminology) and a hanging horse instead of using mostly square horse->bow stance alternations and *bang*: Wing Chun.

Yoshiyahu

04-02-2009, 05:55 PM

This is one of the best off topic discussion yet...thankyou...

very insightful

however those people who disagree with you may not be able to comprehend with what you are teaching...

But great analogy....

What does SLT (SNT) mean........to you?

we can set here and argue over the literal translations of the words all day but if you dont fully understand the concepts the form is teaching what does it matter what the words mean? SLT (we use sil lum tao) is an introduction to an amazing art. Its your alphabet.

if i may,

SLT is your alphabet you must learn to read, write and pronounce the letters correctly in order to go to the next level which is..

Chum Kiu thats where you take the letters youve learned and form words and basic sentences which leads to...

Biu Jee where you expand your vocabulary

the dummy helps you structure your sentences into paragraphs

sparring allows you to "read" the paragraph youve wrote to someone else so they can "edit" it.

hope that makes sense.

Hendrik

04-02-2009, 07:24 PM

WC is basically just small frame Hung Gar. Same moves, same stances, same names of moves except that Hung Gar seems to have imported a fair bit of the long arm movements of Lama Pai.

Even the Iron Wire form, by some accounts, was created by Ng Mui.

The best Siu Lum Tao I have seen so far (meaning performed by the most powerful and technically most precise practitioners) is done in the same style as Iron Wire.

Just take Hung Gar, shrink it down and play it mostly with a narrow pidgeon toed stance (ba zi ma in Hung Gar terminology) and a hanging horse instead of using mostly square horse->bow stance alternations and *bang*: Wing Chun. ------

This above are the evidence of how much you know WCK.

For me, know an art or arts doesnt stop at how they look or the stories or how I personally think.

It is by evidence because the path one takes influence the result of the training.

For example,

who created IRon Wire? come on it is not NG Mui check the history of IRon Bridge three. and also, Iron Wire is different with SLT on the INternal kung by evidence.

IRON WIRE is Kang method with dynamic muscle tensioning, heavy breathing and making sound.

SLT is rou method which focus on awareness, flow, and utilization of the Medirians channels.

and WCK is WCK because WCK's Kuen kuit "comes accept goes return.. using silence to lead action. "

That tell it all it is not Hung Gar because Hung Gar doesnt following this type of concept.

For anyone who missed the following brief summarization in my previous post.

three styles three different dominant concept, three different types of jin, three type of signature. These are three type of Kuen Faat.

1,
general socalled southern Shao Lin such as five ancestors.... or Karate block ----> targeting to have a perpendicular intercept to move the opponent's attack strike (ie middle punch) off coast.

thus, this is the style of crispy blow.

2,
White Crane of Fujian ----> using the twisted and flipping momentum to scatter/shock/bounce the foundation of the opponents.

Thus, this is the style of shocking body.

3,
Wing Chun Tan Sau ----> guiding to redirect the opponents to open its own core.

Thus, the style of gently subdue the enermy within inches.

Vajramusti

04-02-2009, 09:06 PM

A pretty clear set of distinctions between hung ga and wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

omarthefish

04-03-2009, 01:40 AM

Even the Iron Wire form, by some accounts, was created by Ng Mui.

Fixed that for you. Are you capable of interpreting a phrase like "by some accounts", and more to the point, are you capable of interpreting what that means? What is actually implied by that statement?

This above are the evidence of how much you know WCK.
That's true but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

For me, know an art or arts doesnt stop at how they look or the stories or how I personally think.

It is by evidence because the path one takes influence the result of the training.

Don't dumb down my post in order to set up a nice wooden dummy for you to knock down.

For example,

who created IRon Wire? come on it is not NG Mui check the history of IRon Bridge three.
Really? :eek: Like I said, don't dumb down the conversation in order to make it easier for you to argue.

and also, Iron Wire is different with SLT on the INternal kung by evidence.

IRON WIRE is Kang method with dynamic muscle tensioning, heavy breathing and making sound.

SLT is rou method which focus on awareness, flow, and utilization of the Medirians channels.

Now that's the cool aid talking. Leave the snotty "WC is soooooo cool and everything else is dumb brute force" BS for the 3rd graders. This is exactly the sort of thing that makes WC the laughing stock of most of the martial arts world. Dumb soap box speeches like that one.

and WCK is WCK because WCK's Kuen kuit "comes accept goes return.. using silence to lead action. "
Yes. I've seen the Kuen Kit. Helped translate parts of it for a friend of mine.

That tell it all it is not Hung Gar because Hung Gar doesnt following this type of concept.

You don't know squat about Hung Gar. Like I said before, stop drinking the cool aide.

For anyone who missed the following brief summarization in my previous post.

three styles three different dominant concept, three different types of jin, three type of signature. These are three type of Kuen Faat.
1,
general socalled southern Shao Lin such as five ancestors.... or Karate block ----> targeting to have a perpendicular intercept to move the opponent's attack strike (ie middle punch) off coast.

thus, this is the style of crispy blow.

2,
White Crane of Fujian ----> using the twisted and flipping momentum to scatter/shock/bounce the foundation of the opponents.

Thus, this is the style of shocking body.
3,
Wing Chun Tan Sau ----> guiding to redirect the opponents to open its own core.

Thus, the style of gently subdue the enermy within inches.

1. If you meant Five Ancestors then you should have said Five Ancestors, not "Southern Shaolin". Your description may actually fit for 5 Ancestors. I don't know, never studied it but Hung Gar definately falls under the umrella of southern Shaolin and definately does not fit your description. What about snake? Crane? Even tiger is far more circular than that.

2.That's actually a far better description of how most Hung Gar blocks work. Even with all the sam sing training, if you try to block a kick with your forearm and do not incorporate this kind of jin, you will be in big trouble.

3. More a$$wipery snobbishness. How about the Hung Gar Tan Sau? Same move. Same idea. Same name. What makes you think WC has some sort of special patent on the idea?

Get out more.

Hendrik

04-03-2009, 09:23 AM

Fixed that for you. Are you capable of interpreting a phrase like "by some accounts", and more to the point, are you capable of interpreting what that means? What is actually implied by that statement? ------

All words, non technical at all, but he says she says.

How deep have you cultivate IRon wire?
how deep have you cultivate SLT/SNT?

How do you do WCK's fast jin or short jin?

What type of JIn Iron wire cultivate?

Why did IRon wire mention Qi cultivation within the set and in which kuen kuit?

Share that with us all the details.

Now that's the cool aid talking. Leave the snotty "WC is soooooo cool and everything else is dumb brute force" BS for the 3rd graders. This is exactly the sort of thing that makes WC the laughing stock of most of the martial arts world. Dumb soap box speeches like that one. --------

Go back and read my post carefully , before react with bias and blind emotion.

Yes. I've seen the Kuen Kit. Helped translate parts of it for a friend of mine. -----

Yahoo and Goodle can also do translation. does it means google and yahoo knows what it translate?

You don't know squat about Hung Gar. Like I said before, stop drinking the cool aide. ------

again, you can share with us the uniqueness or Kuen faat of each of the systems instead of making accusation on some thing totally out of the context of the post.

BTW, this is a WCK forum not a Hung Gar forum isnt it?

1. If you meant Five Ancestors then you should have said Five Ancestors, not "Southern Shaolin". Your description may actually fit for 5 Ancestors. I don't know, never studied it but Hung Gar definately falls under the umrella of southern Shaolin and definately does not fit your description. What about snake? Crane? Even tiger is far more circular than that.

2.That's actually a far better description of how most Hung Gar blocks work. Even with all the sam sing training, if you try to block a kick with your forearm and do not incorporate this kind of jin, you will be in big trouble.
-------------------

Great!

why dont you share with the Hung Gar Kuen Faat according to you with us.

add as the Fourth type under the following description?

Share with us what is your "Hung gar Tan sau" similar block intend to do, what type of Jin, what type of characteristics ? how to cultivate that? where you learn the art? who is your sifu ? and your Hung Gar lineage?

three styles three different dominant concept, three different types of jin, three type of signature. These are three type of Kuen Faat.

1,
general socalled southern Shao Lin such as five ancestors.... or Karate SIDE OUTWARD block ----> targeting to have a perpendicular intercept to move the opponent's attack strike (ie middle punch) off coast.

thus, this is the style of crispy blow.

2,
White Crane of Fujian WATER SHAPE HAND ----> using the twisted and flipping momentum to scatter/shock/bounce the foundation of the opponents.

Thus, this is the style of shocking body.

3,
Wing Chun Tan Sau ----> guiding to redirect the opponents to open its own core.

Thus, the style of gently subdue the enermy within inches.

4, any type of BLOCK FROM HUNG GAR which has the same physical appearance with WCK's TAN SAO ACCORDING TO omarthefish.

3. What makes you think WC has some sort of special patent on the idea? ------

Special patent?

WCK is not Hung Gar they have a different Kuen faat or uniqueness that's why they have a different name in China. That is evidence.

You dont like fine.

Yoshiyahu

04-03-2009, 09:38 AM

I cant tell which is yours...an which is the guy your responding too...

There is no separation between what you are saying and he is saying...its all very unclear!

Fixed that for you. Are you capable of interpreting a phrase like "by some accounts", and more to the point, are you capable of interpreting what that means? What is actually implied by that statement? ------

All words, non technical at all, but he says she says.

How deep have you cultivate IRon wire?
how deep have you cultivate SLT/SNT?

How do you do WCK's fast jin or short jin?

What type of JIn Iron wire cultivate?

Why did IRon wire mention Qi cultivation within the set and in which kuen kuit?

Share that with us all the details.

Now that's the cool aid talking. Leave the snotty "WC is soooooo cool and everything else is dumb brute force" BS for the 3rd graders. This is exactly the sort of thing that makes WC the laughing stock of most of the martial arts world. Dumb soap box speeches like that one. --------

Go back and read my post carefully , before react with bias.

Yes. I've seen the Kuen Kit. Helped translate parts of it for a friend of mine. -----

Yahoo and Goodle can also do translation. does it means google and yahoo knows what it translate?

You don't know squat about Hung Gar. Like I said before, stop drinking the cool aide. ------

again, you can share with us the uniqueness or Kuen faat of each of the systems instead of making accusation on some thing totally out of the context of the post.

1. If you meant Five Ancestors then you should have said Five Ancestors, not "Southern Shaolin". Your description may actually fit for 5 Ancestors. I don't know, never studied it but Hung Gar definately falls under the umrella of southern Shaolin and definately does not fit your description. What about snake? Crane? Even tiger is far more circular than that.

2.That's actually a far better description of how most Hung Gar blocks work. Even with all the sam sing training, if you try to block a kick with your forearm and do not incorporate this kind of jin, you will be in big trouble.
-------------------

Great!

why dont you share with the Hung Gar Kuen Faat according to you with us.

add as the Fourth type under the following description?

Share with us what is the block's intend to do, what type of Jin, what type of characteristics ? how to cultivate that? where you learn the art? who is your sifu ? and your Hung Gar lineage?

three styles three different dominant concept, three different types of jin, three type of signature. These are three type of Kuen Faat.

1,
general socalled southern Shao Lin such as five ancestors.... or Karate SIDE OUTWARD block ----> targeting to have a perpendicular intercept to move the opponent's attack strike (ie middle punch) off coast.

thus, this is the style of crispy blow.

2,
White Crane of Fujian WATER SHAPE HAND ----> using the twisted and flipping momentum to scatter/shock/bounce the foundation of the opponents.

Thus, this is the style of shocking body.

3,
Wing Chun Tan Sau ----> guiding to redirect the opponents to open its own core.

Thus, the style of gently subdue the enermy within inches.

4, any type of BLOCK FROM HUNG GAR which has the same physical appearance with WCK's TAN SAO ACCORDING TO omarthefish.

3. What makes you think WC has some sort of special patent on the idea? ------

Special patent?

WCK is not Hung Gar they have a different Kuen faat or uniqueness that's why they have a different name in China. That is evidence.

You dont like fine.

Hendrik

04-03-2009, 12:31 PM

I cant tell which is yours...an which is the guy your responding too...

There is no separation between what you are saying and he is saying...its all very unclear!

Check for "----------" after the paragrah as an indicator.

Yoshiyahu

04-03-2009, 01:13 PM

Check for "----------" after the paragrah as an indicator.

So you know how to use the qoute button?

Hendrik

04-03-2009, 01:17 PM

So you know how to use the qoute button?

good idea thanks.

Genetic

04-03-2009, 03:11 PM

What does SLT (SNT) mean........to you?

we can set here and argue over the literal translations of the words all day but if you dont fully understand the concepts the form is teaching what does it matter what the words mean? SLT (we use sil lum tao) is an introduction to an amazing art. Its your alphabet.

if i may,

SLT is your alphabet you must learn to read, write and pronounce the letters correctly in order to go to the next level which is..

Chum Kiu thats where you take the letters youve learned and form words and basic sentences which leads to...

Biu Jee where you expand your vocabulary

the dummy helps you structure your sentences into paragraphs

sparring allows you to "read" the paragraph youve wrote to someone else so they can "edit" it.

hope that makes sense.

This is what I think, but then where do you learn to hold down a conversation. Not in the forms.

I think that trying to take the forms literally and pin them down to specific 'fighting' applications is a misunderstanding of the forms.

Using your analogy, it would be like trying to hold a conversation using seperate phonics, the phonics are just a means to an end, the end being talking.

When you can talk, what is the benefit of going back to phonics and trying to detail or list applications? You already have the application, you can talk.

I would disagree about the dummy though. The dummy just lets you practice talking on your own, and fine tune your pronunciation using predefined conversations. Later you can make up your own.

Genetic

04-03-2009, 03:18 PM

This is one of the best off topic discussion yet...thankyou...

very insightful

however those people who disagree with you may not be able to comprehend with what you are teaching...

But great analogy....

Haha, is that how you insulate yourself from people that disagree with you yourself, that they are unable to comprehend what you are teaching.

I dont think you comprehend what Katsu Jin Ken said, but then perhaps I am falling into your trap myself, and it is me that is unable to comprehend.

Put it this way, the application of the alphabet is not letters, it is words and conversation. SNT is not about application. It is a foundation. A stepping stone to learning how to speak.

Perhaps Katsu Jin Ken could clafify. As to it being off topic, for me it was on topic. The topic being that you are looking for applications in the wrong place, and have misunderstood SNT.

omarthefish

04-03-2009, 04:22 PM

All words, non technical at all, but he says she says.
Ok. Let me spell it out for you because even though it was "non technical at all" your reading comprehension is apparently not much better than your writing.

I got the story of the Iron Wire-WC connection from some WC guys. The fact is, the whole "Iron Bridge Three" story is also just a story. There's no historical evidence to back it up. It's part of the Hung Gar oral history. Oral histories are more instructional than historical. They are told and perpetuated because they point to some particular belief about the style that is NOT history. In this case, it points to the deep similarities between the forms. They both open with the pidgeon toed stances. They both then proceed to define the center line by crossing forearms in front of yourself first low and then high. If you look at the opening to Fu Hok, it's even closer. Fu Hok opens with a downward palm followed by....*drum roll*....a tan sau. Then it follows with a low tiger claw block --->po bai--->downward block--->biu jee---> hand circles.

Yahoo and Goodle can also do translation. does it means google and yahoo knows what it translate?
Do not make a comparision between a legitimate translator and a piece of software. That is a joke.

why dont you share with the Hung Gar Kuen Faat according to you with us.

There is not one single move of idea in all 3 WC forms that is not well developed in Hung Gar. WC is simply more specialized. There is a far greater emphasis on the "figure 8" stance and on short range, stand up fighting. In Hung Gar a "boxer's crouch" is common and there is a far broader repetoire so either master or simply to choose from as you develop your personal style.

btw, you are mixing up the term "kuen fat", which AFAIK is Cantonese for 拳法 with the term "jin fa" (don't know the Cantonese pronounciation) which is written 勁法／劲法. What you described in your list are various 劲法.

4, any type of BLOCK FROM HUNG GAR which has the same physical appearance with WCK's TAN SAO ACCORDING TO omarthefish.
Dont' put words in my mouth to make it easier to make your point. The above line refers to your own post, not mine. I said absolutely no such thing.

WCK is not Hung Gar they have a different Kuen faat or uniqueness that's why they have a different name in China. That is evidence.

But they are both from the same family. They are both southern Shaolin. They both share the same vocabulary. They are not so different as you would like to think. This kind of thinking is a kind of sickness that I see a lot in CMA but especially in the WC forums. What defines WC is it's specialty. There are no specific moves or energies that can not be found in a wide variety of southern Shaolin forms. It's just a matter of emphasis. The idea that there is something special and mysterious about the Tan Sau in WC that can not be found in the application of a Tan Sau in other styles is just wishful thinking on your part.

Maybe I just prefer to see the similarities rather than always emphasing the differences.

btw, English is not your first language?

Hendrik

04-03-2009, 05:27 PM

btw, you are mixing up the term "kuen fat", which AFAIK is Cantonese for 拳法 with
the term "jin fa" (don't know the Cantonese pronounciation) which is written 勁法／劲法. What you described in your list are various 劲法.

nope, your assumption is not what I post.

BTW, please share with us in technical term to answer item

4, any type of BLOCK FROM HUNG GAR which has the same physical appearance with WCK's TAN SAO ACCORDING TO omarthefish.

We would love to know what is your point.

See, you could accuse, complain,....... provide non technical stuffs ....

Please share with us you technical point.

" But they are both from the same family. They are both southern Shaolin. They both share the same vocabulary. "

please show solid evidence.

They are not so different as you would like to think. This kind of thinking is a kind of sickness that I see a lot in CMA but especially in the WC forums.

You are absolutely correct.

So shows your solid evidence instead of get into the accusation of "would like to think." enlighten me with evidence.

What defines WC is it's specialty. There are no specific moves or energies that can not be found in a wide variety of southern Shaolin forms. It's just a matter of emphasis.

again, that is your assumption,

if you have solid evidence then share with us.

The idea that there is something special and mysterious about the Tan Sau in WC that can not be found in the application of a Tan Sau in other styles is just wishful thinking on your part."

Since the begining, no one said Mysterious about Tan Sau in WCK, but a comparision of what is different in general with other styles.

again, you keep accuse this wishful thinking that.....

but you have never shown a technical thing I ask you above.

So, now is your turn dont continous to acccuse and judge, share with us your technical data or evidence to support yourself.

omarthefish

04-03-2009, 05:41 PM

btw, you are mixing up the term "kuen fat", which AFAIK is Cantonese for 拳法 with

nope, your assumption is not what I post.

Well then, which is it? If you mean 拳法 then you are using the term wrong. 拳法 just means "boxing" or "martial arts". Are you talking about 拳法 or 劲法. I did not make any assumptions. I am looking at how you used to term in order to make sense of what it means. The spelling clearly indicates a southern dialect. It matches the Cantonese pronunciation of the term 拳法 but the content of your post does not match with the meaning of the term.

BTW, please share with us in technical term to answer item

4, any type of BLOCK FROM HUNG GAR which has the same physical appearance with WCK's TAN SAO ACCORDING TO omarthefish.

We would love to know what is your point.

See, you could accuse, complain,....... provide non technical stuffs ....

Please share with us you technical point.

Explain it yourself. After all....it is your post that you are quoting, not mine.

As for the "solid evidence" you asked for, I already did. I outlined exactly where tan sau, po bai and biu jee can all be found right in the opening to Fu Hok. You can find bon sau scattered all throughout Gong Ji and Fu Hok...albeit applied from a bow stance rather than a figure 8 stance. The cross arms is right there in the opening to iron wire. Most all of the lessons of biu jee the form, as opposed to biu jee the move, can be found in the snake aspect of Hung Gar.

Even the classic bong sau--> tan sau transition is in Hung Gar. The butterfly palms, when understood correctly, are not applied so large as in the form. In sparring it ends up working out the same as the classic WC combo: bong->tan->palm to face.

You name a WC move, concept or tactic and I will tell you where you can find it in Hung Gar and even go so far as to point out how they are different....but only after I point out how they are the same.

Believe me, I've been down this road before. I have spent more afternoons than I can remember comparing notes with and playing chisau with my friends in the San Francisco WC community. I spent about 8 years in SF Chinatown learning Hung Gar before I moved to China.

Hendrik

04-03-2009, 05:58 PM

Well then, which is it? If you mean 拳法 then you are using the term wrong. 拳法 just means "boxing" or "martial arts". Are you talking about 拳法 or 劲法.

I have no idea where your right or wrong is from.

in classical chinese 拳法 or kuen faat means the method of the art.

For example, Shao Lin kuen faat, Wu dang Kuen faat, Emei kuen faat, Karate Kuen faat.

Every style has its own Kuen faat.

Within the Kuen faat there is Jin faat to support the Kuen faat.

For example, Taiji chuan has Taiji chuan's kuen faat, and there are taiji Jin to support the kuen faat. Chen Taiji has Chen Taiji's Kuen faat, and Chen Taiji has its Reel silk jin to support the implementation of the Chen Taiji Kuen faat.

OK, the following is from my previous post

1,
general socalled southern Shao Lin such as five ancestors.... or Karate side outward block ----> targeting to have perpendicular intercept to move the opponent's attack strike (ie middle punch) off coast. (note :劲法. jin faat or Keng faat)

thus, this is the style of crispy blow.( note :拳法 kuen faat)

2,
White Crane of Fujian water shape hand----> using the twisted and flipping momentum to scatter/shock/bounce the foundation of the opponents. (note :劲法. jin faat or Keng faat)

Thus, this is the style of shocking body. ( note :拳法 kuen faat)

3,
Wing Chun Tan Sau ---->guiding to redirect the opponents to open its own core. (note :劲法. jin faat or Keng faat)

Thus, the style of gently subdue the enermy within inches. (note: 拳法) ( note :拳法 kuen faat)

Note that the above are copy from my previous posts and add in the 劲法 or Jin method and 拳法 or Kuen Faat note to further catagorized what is what. Since every Kuen faat or style has its own unique Jin faat.

I did not make any assumptions. I am looking at how you used to term in order to make sense of what it means. The spelling clearly indicates a southern dialect. It matches the Cantonese pronunciation of the term 拳法 but the content of your post does not match with the meaning of the term.

Again, the issue you raise is not an issue at all. see, the above note.

Now it is your turn to share your idea on HUng gar , Iron wire TAN SAU 's .... Kuen faat and Jin faat for comparison to the three examples I have posted above.

Hendrik

04-03-2009, 06:31 PM

As for the "solid evidence" you asked for, I already did. I outlined exactly where tan sau, po bai and biu jee can all be found right in the opening to Fu Hok. You can find bon sau scattered all throughout Gong Ji and Fu Hok...albeit applied from a bow stance rather than a figure 8 stance.......

Sure, with your logic.

The karate Tenso's side outer block is WCK's Tan sau

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pBE6EwmkdU&feature=related

So WCK is from Karate.

WCner needs to learn from Mas Oyama how to do SLT/SNT.

and BTW there are all type of WCK technics in Tenso, so, obviously WCK is from Kyokushin!
Right?

So, Hung Gar also equal to Kyokushin Karate?

.

You name a WC move, concept or tactic and I will tell you where you can find it in Hung Gar and even go so far as to point out how they are different....but only after I point out how they are the same.

Tell us here where in Hung GAr you can find

WCK's "comes accept Goes return ...." kuen kuit?

and

How do you do WCK's fast jin or short jin?

What type of JIn Iron wire cultivate?

Why did IRon wire mention Qi cultivation within the set and in which kuen kuit?

please Share with us all the details.

Believe me, I've been down this road before. I have spent more afternoons than I can remember comparing notes with and playing chisau with my friends in the San Francisco WC community. I spent about 8 years in SF Chinatown learning Hung Gar before I moved to China.

You could be totally right. however that doesnt say anything right? see, those are not legitimate reference.

Violent Designs

04-03-2009, 09:25 PM

Holy sh1t.

WCK is not Hung Kuen and that is the end of it.

Different fight philosophy, power generation, biomechanic, Jin, structure . . .

Rou Jin =/= Gang Jin

Phil Redmond

04-03-2009, 09:32 PM

It's really sad but your signature sums up most martial arts forums. I'm about to give them up and just meet people in person. Sometimes people have to feel to believe. Myself included.

Violent Designs

04-04-2009, 01:51 AM

It's really sad but your signature sums up most martial arts forums. I'm about to give them up and just meet people in person. Sometimes people have to feel to believe. Myself included.

Yep.

If I ever go round your side of the fence I shall drop by and say hello.

You seem like a nice fella.

On another note, Shifu redmond.

I have met a couple of really cool people, who I consider my kung fu brothers, form these forums.

They are good for some things, after all.

Just ignore the bulls1hit people post. :)

Genetic

04-04-2009, 04:01 PM

It's really sad but your signature sums up most martial arts forums. I'm about to give them up and just meet people in person. Sometimes people have to feel to believe. Myself included.

It's a bit like the way people treat other people in cars here in the UK. As if they are the enemy. People seem to act in a way that they wouldnt in 'real life'.

I think you should give up forums, Im new to them myself but think they have nothing positive to offer unfortunately.

Unless you like *****ing.

[Im editing this, because of ambiguity the above starts with a B, then an I, then a T.
There is no F in there :)

There is a total lack of respect for anything or anyone, because it is not 'real' somehow.

Has anyone on forums ever learned anything that has improved their art, or have they just had to waste time and wade through lots of negativity?

Phil Redmond

04-04-2009, 07:20 PM

It's a bit like the way people treat other people in cars here in the UK. As if they are the enemy. People seem to act in a way that they wouldnt in 'real life'.

I think you should give up forums, Im new to them myself but think they have nothing positive to offer unfortunately.

Unless you like *****ing.

[Im editing this, because of ambiguity the above starts with a B, then an I, then a T.
There is no F in there :)

There is a total lack of respect for anything or anyone, because it is not 'real' somehow.

Has anyone on forums ever learned anything that has improved their art, or have they just had to waste time and wade through lots of negativity?
You have a point. I'm actually in the process of weaning (sp)? my self from the many forums I belong to. If people would be willing to help of give constructive criticism instead of trashing each other that would be great. And I don't think it's not going to change either.

Violent Designs

04-05-2009, 02:56 AM

shifu Redmond, I send you a PM. :)

omarthefish

04-05-2009, 05:46 AM

Holy sh1t.

WCK is not Hung Kuen and that is the end of it.

Different fight philosophy, power generation, biomechanic, Jin, structure . . .

Rou Jin =/= Gang Jin

Does it make you feel smarter to make up pretend arguments so you can then definitively win them?

Because from the outside looking in it just makes you look stupid.

omarthefish

04-05-2009, 06:00 AM

You have a point. I'm actually in the process of weaning (sp)? my self from the many forums I belong to. If people would be willing to help of give constructive criticism instead of trashing each other that would be great. And I don't think it's not going to change either.

With regard to that sig you are commenting on, actually, I have made a pretty decent number of personal contacts through the forums. Not so much in this one but I have met quite a few of the folks over at rumsoakedfist.com. I get a lot of food for thought on a lot of forums too. Never learned anything directly but coupled with my own practice, I have picked up some ideas that proved to be extremely useful.

I go through phases. Right now I am down to only 2 forums and I was only posting on one for almost a year. I only came back to KFO the past couple weeks because I am back in China and that leaves me with a lot more free time than in the states along with a hunger for English language conversation.

I guess I have to admit that I am on KFO more for entertainment than anything else. I don't even train Hung Gar anymore.

To vaguely answer Henrik's question about my "qualifications" as it were....lol...I trained Hung Gar for about 8 years under one of the generally recognized top masters in the entire United States but am disinclined to drop his name directly because I do not represent him in any way shape or form. I represent my own views on Hung Gar only. Most of my best friends are either WC or Choi Li Fut guys. The WC guys are among the top in all of San Francisco which is saying something. I spent many years hanging out and talking shop with these guys, visiting their classes, taking classes from them, sharing forms, going out to meet their teachers and so on.

Officially, I am a Baji guy. With Baji and to a lesser degree, Baguataijiquan, I have official lineage, my own quanpu and so on. One more year and I will have trained Baji for as long as I had trained Hung Gar before. So on a Baji or Taiji related I am going to be FAR more politic as, in that realm, I actually do represent a lineage.

That is all.

Happy Qing Ming Festival! (a kind of "spirit day" in China that just passed)

Genetic

04-05-2009, 05:17 PM

Genetic

04-05-2009, 05:19 PM

I get a lot of food for thought on a lot of forums too. Never learned anything directly but coupled with my own practice, I have picked up some ideas that proved to be extremely useful.

So forums can be of benefit then?

omarthefish

04-06-2009, 12:23 AM

Oh sure.

Not often but every once in a while. Some forums more than others and also they can be more or less useful at different points in your training. Talking to people about what you do is always going to be helpful. It's not always a matter of getting information either. Sometimes just talking it out helps clarify things or bring up questions. Keeping a journal might be more productive but it's also more work.

I'm not recommending forums or recommending avoiding them. I only think that they can be useful, not that there are useful.

Violent Designs

04-06-2009, 01:28 AM

Does it make you feel smarter to make up pretend arguments so you can then definitively win them?

Because from the outside looking in it just makes you look stupid.

Does it make you smarter to be associated with John Springer and not putting up when you're suppose to fight? :rolleyes:

What are my "pretend arguments."

You are saying Wing Chun = Hung Kuen, when the structure of Wing Chun and Hung are completely different. Oh sure, there are bits and pieces that cross over, but the general methodology and approach of the two systems, in regard to fighting are totally different.

On that note I could say Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun are the same as well. :rolleyes:

omarthefish

04-06-2009, 02:30 AM

No YOU. are saying that. You and Hendrik. If you actually read any of my posts then you might have a clue but if you feel happier with yourself when you just pretend to read past a 3rd grade level and find it easier to win your own arguments than to win those you have with other people.

On that note I could say Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun are the same as well.

You could also say that your hand and the hand of your girlfriends are the same if it helps you sleep at night but it still wouldn't be relevant to anything I have posted.

Apparently WC makes your brain decompose.

Violent Designs

04-06-2009, 02:53 AM

OK, genius I give up arguing with you. It's pointless.

Your knowledge of Wing Chun, transcend everything I know.

I admit, I am not even WC player.

But of course, you will always know more than me.

I don't sleep much but when I do it's usually very deep and satisfactory.

omarthefish

04-06-2009, 05:19 AM

Dude, we haven't even argued yet.

You just quoted what Henrik said that I said which was not what I actually said.

I'm only being an a$$ because y'all are putting words in my mouth. In my initial post on the subject that is not the topic of this thread, I made a number of comparisons between Hung Gar and WC. I outlined where they are the same and ***drum roll*** where they are different.

Henrik and yourself chose to ignore my entire post and instead insist that I said they were the same thing which is so absurd it does not deserve a reasonable response and so...I did not give one. I thought the Choi Li Fut analogy you gave was unreasonable as well because I do not find Choi Li Fut to be nearly as similar although I could outline a lot of overlap there as well.

Choi Li Fut uses stance work in more or less the same way as Hung Gar but the superficially similar techniques, things such as gua choi, sau choi and tsaap choi, in Choi Li Fut are played with FAR more importance placed on a verticle spine thereby emphasing the twisting waist power more where Hung Gar places, IMO, more emphasis on the driving off the rear leg for power generation. I think the Hung Gar long arm techniques are more similar to the Lama Pai I have seen (online only of course) than to the Choi Li Fut stuff which I have seen in person.

My Choi Li Fut experience comes from taking the occasional class with Dino Salvatera (not a real student of his, just taken a class or two) and from training with hskwarrior for a couple months and also taking a handfull of classes from one of his Sihing and just being really good friends with several of his other more junior kung fu brothers.

In San Francisco it's all about Choi Li Fut and WC. I happened to be a Hung Gar guy but it's hard to make friends in that city's wulin without getting pretty intimate with those two styles. I took classes from all the various Choi Li Fut guys so that I would have a REAL idea about what they do and have REAL respect for their methods rather than just an impression based on some online clips. Same thing for the WC. I cross trained a bit in all those things. Never went deep into any of them other than Hung Gar though. I like being able to hold an intelligent conversation about southern arts in general and do not make sweeping generalizations as I was being characterized. So just keep it real and I will keep it friendly.

Violent Designs

04-06-2009, 05:36 AM

its fine.

i feel like, you just act like an ass toward me, so I usually give it back.

This is better, we are clear now. No hard feelings for me.'

Whatever your argument with Hendrik I don't care.

I don't like him either.

omarthefish

04-06-2009, 06:07 AM

lol.

Right on man.

With one more thing. I don't think I act like an ass towards you. I acted like one just on this thread but it sure ain't a policy.

Sorry I jumped on you. I saw you throwing Henrik's [totally inaccurate] paraphrase of my post at me and I made some a__sumptions.

Take it easy dude. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Hendrik

04-06-2009, 08:45 PM

Hung Gar Iron wire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU8XtUh7Cg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH9tFkjg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&index=28&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM

WCK's SLT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJX216fiIbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yu5IcSaTms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0uaJJsI1S4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVA9GcvcsS8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcHD7q2tnZw&feature=PlayList&p=7DB8D81538254B79&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=9

Same thing?

omarthefish

04-07-2009, 12:48 AM

relevance?

and btw, Youtube is currently blocked in China but your still an illiterate snob.

Hendrik

04-07-2009, 11:41 AM

for those who sees the hung gar youtube above, anyone how does Hung Gar here think they are better/more knowledgeble/more experience then the sifus in the youtube?

sanjuro_ronin

04-07-2009, 11:47 AM

Hendrik

04-07-2009, 12:18 PM

All those Iron Wire clips are, well, incorrect and they are so on purpose.
Just so you know.

1, what do you mean by incorrect?

2, do you mean you are a better expert in Hung gar iron wire then those grandmasters?

sanjuro_ronin

04-07-2009, 12:27 PM

1, what do you mean by incorrect?

2, do you mean you are a better expert in Hung gar iron wire then those grandmasters?

Ah dude, they were altered for the public, typically mix up with other Hung Ga forms, pretty common thing, don't take my word for it, ask the other Hung guys here.
I take it you don't do Hung Ga?

Hendrik

04-07-2009, 01:47 PM

Ah dude, they were altered for the public, typically mix up with other Hung Ga forms, pretty common thing, don't take my word for it, ask the other Hung guys here.
I take it you don't do Hung Ga?

ARe these Grandmasters know Hung Gar?

omarthefish

04-07-2009, 02:03 PM

ARe these clips relevant to my argument?

ARe you just arguing with your self?

Are you an ESL learner because that would explain your apparent inability to make sense of my argument?

I'm not going to waste time providing a thoughtful answer to any of your posts until you can demonstrate that you have at least an approximate understanding of what I said otherwise I'm just talking past you.

sanjuro_ronin

04-08-2009, 05:59 AM

ARe these Grandmasters know Hung Gar?

I don't understand your question...

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 10:16 AM

I don't understand your question...

in your opinion, are those grandmasters in the youtube know what they are doing? put aside they modified thier form....etc those type of cosmetics.

sanjuro_ronin

04-08-2009, 10:37 AM

in your opinion, are those grandmasters in the youtube know what they are doing? put aside they modified thier form....etc those type of cosmetics.

Oh, I see.
Yes, indeed, the very little they show of it to the "consumer".

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 04:41 PM

Oh, I see.
Yes, indeed, the very little they show of it to the "consumer".

Thank you for your input.

Yoshiyahu

04-08-2009, 06:55 PM

Ha Ha why do they modify their forms instead of sharing the form in its original form.

in your opinion, are those grandmasters in the youtube know what they are doing? put aside they modified thier form....etc those type of cosmetics.

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 08:04 PM

Ha Ha why do they modify their forms instead of sharing the form in its original form.

One can modified thier form, but one cant hide the level of their attainment.

omarthefish

04-08-2009, 11:55 PM

Ha Ha why do they modify their forms instead of sharing the form in its original form.

To prevent anyone from learning it from video or alternately, they "mark" the form so that they can tell if they see someone who learned it from one of their public performances.

Violent Designs

04-09-2009, 01:52 AM

To prevent anyone from learning it from video or alternately, they "mark" the form so that they can tell if they see someone who learned it from one of their public performances.

IMHO this is weak. Forms don't make fighters, I could care less if someone wanted to mimic my forms, they are just their for encyclopedic purposes anyway.

omarthefish

04-09-2009, 02:33 AM

Well you are certainly entitled to that opinion. OTOH, those who prefer not to share their forms with the public are entitled to do that as well. Furthermore, I would think that if you value those forms as little as is implied by your post that you would not particularly care that they altered their forms for public performances?

Whatever the reasons, encyclopediac (which Iron Wire is certainly not) or whatever, the people who have these forms in their possession have no moral obligation to share them with anyone other than their direct students and most of them don't.

Violent Designs

04-09-2009, 03:51 AM

Oh I completely agree Iron Wire is not. There are internal sets and such, e.g. dynamic tension, structural development, that I think are far more important that just technique-based forms.

But most CLF forms I learn, are just combinations, techniques, etc. No qigong, etc.

I should have made a better explanation, the forms I know personally I would not care too much if people try and copy them.

As for Iron Wire and such, well, most people that try to mimic will probably not have the skill level necessary to make full usage of the form anyway? (just a thought).

Peace

sanjuro_ronin

04-09-2009, 05:17 AM

Ha Ha why do they modify their forms instead of sharing the form in its original form.

There are reason for that.

One can modified thier form, but one cant hide the level of their attainment.

yes, they can.

bakxierboxer

04-09-2009, 10:05 AM

((re: "hiding the form"))

There are reason for that.

That is heard from time to time.

((re: "hiding their level"))

yes, they can.

The real problem is when you get the distinct impression that what they're doing actually IS "their level".

sanjuro_ronin

04-09-2009, 10:49 AM

The real problem is when you get the distinct impression that what they're doing actually IS "their level".
Yes, that is an issue, especially with Chiu Chi Ling's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

bakxierboxer

04-09-2009, 11:58 AM

Yes, that is an issue, especially with Chiu Chi Ling's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

How'zat go?
Oh.... "You sure know how to pick'em!"

OTOH, I hate it when guys do Tit Sin because there's altogether too much "showmanship" involved to get as good a "read" on their actual skills as you can from a "more typical" set.

Beyond that..... a "somewhat diplomatic": "No comment!" will have to do.

sanjuro_ronin

04-09-2009, 12:00 PM

How'zat go?
Oh.... "You sure know how to pick'em!"

OTOH, I hate it when guys do Tit Sin because there's altogether too much "showmanship" involved to get as good a "read" on their actual skills as you can from a "more typical" set.

Beyond that..... a "somewhat diplomatic": "No comment!" will have to do.

Actually, we do tend to "show" our TSK in a way that best suits what we wanna "show off" at the time, with me because It like to show off the strenght, that is what I do and as you know, other things tend to suffer because of it.
Guilty as charged :D

As for GM Ling's, well, he's know to be a joker so...

bakxierboxer

04-09-2009, 12:13 PM

Actually, we do tend to "show" our TSK in a way that best suits what we wanna "show off" at the time, with me because It like to show off the strenght, that is what I do and as you know, other things tend to suffer because of it.
Guilty as charged :D

Hey, it ain't at all like yer the Lone Ranger in that.... let alone the Lone deRanger.

As for GM Ling's, well, he's know to be a joker so...

Enh!
Family name is "Chiu".

sanjuro_ronin

04-09-2009, 01:26 PM

Hey, it ain't at all like yer the Lone Ranger in that.... let alone the Lone deRanger.

Enh!
Family name is "Chiu".

LOL, thanks and I thought I wrote out the full name..wierd how only Ling showed up...:confused:
Then again, I need to stop drinking on the job.
:D

bakxierboxer

04-09-2009, 03:07 PM

LOL, thanks and I thought I wrote out the full name..wierd how only Ling showed up...:confused:

It's also just possible that you'd ventured a little too close to considering them cunning linguists.......

Then again, I need to stop drinking on the job.
:D

My little brother just informed me that he isn't drinking any more.... which in family parlance can also mean that he ain't drinking any less...........

Liddel

04-09-2009, 05:36 PM

Yes, that is an issue, especially with Chiu Chi Ling's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

Is he a well known Folley artist or something LOL ?

I could see the sound effects used for a fighting video game or something.

hwooo, chaaaa, hahahahaha - YOU LOSE - PLEASE INSERT COIN -

:cool:
DREW

Hendrik

04-09-2009, 05:50 PM

authentic stuffs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtM4MpUlcGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0&feature=related

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=BkXAaNtpRZY

Yoshiyahu

04-09-2009, 06:57 PM

When you guys show your SLT to others in the public...

Do you hide or modify the form?????

Phil Redmond

04-10-2009, 10:57 AM

When you guys show your SLT to others in the public...

Do you hide or modify the form?????
Heck no, it's just a form. Showing a form doesn't mean they're going to be able to apply it. If a person wants to know about the form and how it's applied they can join the school. I think teaching fighting attributes is way more important than any form.

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 11:22 AM

Heck no, it's just a form. Showing a form doesn't mean they're going to be able to apply it. If a persons want to know what the form or how it's applied is for they can join the school. I think teaching fighting attributes is way more important than any form.

Form is like a physical body as soon as the soul is not there it doesnt mean much.

But then for the advance player, even from other style, who can read into the "soul" every point is important.

Thus, I have heard, the secret "half point" of WCK was never in the form but it is hidden and waiting there in the application.

IRON WIRE is certainly not SLT not WCK. That half point of WCK is a different animal and require different type of Jin which is the fast accelerate Jin or Chuck Keng.

Yoshiyahu

04-10-2009, 07:20 PM

Thank you for that post...Good analogy!

Form is like a physical body as soon as the soul is not there it doesnt mean much.

But then for the advance player, even from other style, who can read into the "soul" every point is important.

Thus, I have heard, the secret "half point" of WCK was never in the form but it is hidden and waiting there in the application.

IRON WIRE is certainly not SLT not WCK. That half point of WCK is a different animal and require different type of Jin which is the fast accelerate Jin or Chuck Keng.

bakxierboxer

04-11-2009, 01:20 PM

Phil Redmond

04-11-2009, 02:04 PM

Form is like a physical body as soon as the soul is not there it doesnt mean much.

But then for the advance player, even from other style, who can read into the "soul" every point is important. . . . .
That's exactly why I can't understand why people say their way is the right way and some else's is wrong. Or when they say this or that won't work. There are people that can do all sorts of acrobatics and yet many people can't.
If I'm unable to do something physical (within reason of course), it's because I haven't taken the time to train the necessary attributes.

Hendrik

04-11-2009, 02:36 PM

Time to come out of the closet and drop the pajamas.

Time to approve one self one what it is.

Time to be honest and time to be clear on what one is doing.

Time to not have to follow others just because they said so or comes with a big name.

As soon as there is a legitimate reason for the practioner and tell the world the ingradients as it is. Why not?

punchdrunk

04-11-2009, 05:27 PM

Time to come out of the closet and drop the pajamas.

That should be your signature!! JK:D

sanjuro_ronin

04-13-2009, 05:06 AM

That's exactly why I can't understand why people say their way is the right way and some else's is wrong. Or when they say this or that won't work. There are people that can do all sorts of acrobatics and yet many people can't.
If I'm unable to do something physical (within reason of course), it's because I haven't taken the time to train the necessary attributes.

One can argue that, if people do a form the "same" way then they have not truly grasped the form as it relates to THEMSELVES.

Yoshiyahu

04-13-2009, 01:19 PM

One can argue that, if people do a form the "same" way then they have not truly grasped the form as it relates to THEMSELVES.

Why most everything be so secretative. Why do some people feel that one or two forms is the secret to being good at Kung Fu. Its only one element.

Why not share all your kung fu. People are worried about giving away secrets an causing people to become ruthless killers. But real killers don't kill with iron palm or bil gee but they kill with Guns and Knives~

If you want to be really deadly buy a gun or butcher knife.

But why do people fear giving away to much of their art. Could it be that they are really afraid if their students have to much that the student would be better than they are?

omarthefish

04-13-2009, 04:44 PM

While there may not be any forms out there that are critical to being a good fighter and not training any forms as all may not impair your progress at "kung fu", the forms of many styles are critical to mastering certain styles. You can not really master WC, IMO, without doing literally 1000's of repititions of SLT. You can definately not really understand the Yang Taiji that I study without doing at least a thousand repetitions of that form. (less repititions are needed because the form is at least an hour long)

You could become good at fighting.
You could become good at push hands/Chi Sau.

You just couldn't become good at the style.

Let's take another look at your analogy:

Why not share all your kung fu. People are worried about giving away secrets an causing people to become ruthless killers. But real killers don't kill with iron palm or bil gee but they kill with Guns and Knives~

What if the issue is not about creating killers but about simply refusing to give away for free what one has put many years of blood sweat and tears into acquiring? The attitude that everything should be available on the internet, for free and not require any loyalty to a teacher or style is selfish and spoiled. I know my own teacher truly loves his art. The fighting part is almost irrelevant to the secrecy aspects. He considers what he teaches to be a national treasure. Since this treasure, this cultural heritige is information and skill, it can not be kept in a museum or locked in a safe. It can only be cultivated in and and passed on by a person.

What the hell makes a person think that their ability to access the world wide web makes them entitled to those teachings.

That is the attitude of a spoiled child. Gimme gimme gimme. I want I want I want.

Go earn it. (not addressed to anyone in particular. Just a general principle)

Yoshiyahu

04-16-2009, 09:45 AM

If you have the money...you can buy videos from various masters of different lineages. You can access the knowledge on web. You could by books or borrow books from the library. But this is only one portion of it.

Just because the pure form is online doesn't take away from the sifu.

One you have to practice it too.

Two you will need corrections from a disciplined sifu.

But if you already have the fundamentals then seeing these videos will just increase your understanding or give you an ephipany on certain techniques.

Why does everything have to be a secret.

While there may not be any forms out there that are critical to being a good fighter and not training any forms as all may not impair your progress at "kung fu", the forms of many styles are critical to mastering certain styles. You can not really master WC, IMO, without doing literally 1000's of repititions of SLT. You can definately not really understand the Yang Taiji that I study without doing at least a thousand repetitions of that form. (less repititions are needed because the form is at least an hour long)

You could become good at fighting.
You could become good at push hands/Chi Sau.

You just couldn't become good at the style.

Let's take another look at your analogy:

What if the issue is not about creating killers but about simply refusing to give away for free what one has put many years of blood sweat and tears into acquiring? The attitude that everything should be available on the internet, for free and not require any loyalty to a teacher or style is selfish and spoiled. I know my own teacher truly loves his art. The fighting part is almost irrelevant to the secrecy aspects. He considers what he teaches to be a national treasure. Since this treasure, this cultural heritige is information and skill, it can not be kept in a museum or locked in a safe. It can only be cultivated in and and passed on by a person.

What the hell makes a person think that their ability to access the world wide web makes them entitled to those teachings.

That is the attitude of a spoiled child. Gimme gimme gimme. I want I want I want.

Go earn it. (not addressed to anyone in particular. Just a general principle)

Vajramusti

04-16-2009, 12:36 PM

Go earn it. (not addressed to anyone in particular. Just a general principle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good principle for the most part.. Its not always a matter of secrecy-passive auditors or insufficiently trained observers in most serious subjects often mistakenly assume that they can by pass good instruction, practice and appropriate quality experience.

joy chaudhuri

Yoshiyahu

04-16-2009, 01:20 PM

An after you spent ten plus years with a Sifu learning your Art. Why not add to your art by getting free information from others of different lineages!

Go earn it. (not addressed to anyone in particular. Just a general principle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good principle for the most part.. Its not always a matter of secrecy-passive auditors or insufficiently trained observers in most serious subjects often mistakenly assume that they can by pass good instruction, practice and appropriate quality experience.

joy chaudhuri

Vajramusti

04-16-2009, 02:18 PM

An after you spent ten plus years with a Sifu learning your Art. Why not add to your art by getting free information from others of different lineages!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you trolling?

There can be great differences in the details, that you may miss by just watching a video of a different teaching tradition and way..

Perhaps also for somewhat the same reason that someone who may know a one or two or even 5 string instrument can be a rank beginner with a seven string instrument.

PS> I don't know what you have learned and how well you have learned or from whom you learned.No comment on that.

joy chaudhuri

omarthefish

04-16-2009, 02:44 PM

Genetic

04-16-2009, 05:02 PM

Not everything is for sale.

I think you will find that it is.

But not everything can be bought.

Yoshiyahu

04-16-2009, 06:20 PM

Well excellent response. I am sharing my opinions. If someone already studies lets say Gensi Ryu Karate and they been practing for like 20 years. Would it be wrong for them look at videos on Tae Kwon Do or Shotokan Karate to add new drills or techniques to their fighting demanor. AS you said There can be great difference in details that you miss by watching a video. So why is it that people feel videos need to be so secreative. Why not just share it. Because a video won't give you all of the corrections and golden nuggets to assist with your improvement. How ever if you already have Sifu. An learn from him an also crosstrain by watching videos on Judo for throws, Chin Na for locks, MMA for submission and other WC lineages for difference of applications and energies on different techniques why is that wrong?

An after you spent ten plus years with a Sifu learning your Art. Why not add to your art by getting free information from others of different lineages!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you trolling?

There can be great differences in the details, that you may miss by just watching a video of a different teaching tradition and way..

Perhaps also for somewhat the same reason that someone who may know a one or two or even 5 string instrument can be a rank beginner with a seven string instrument.

PS> I don't know what you have learned and how well you have learned or from whom you learned.No comment on that.

joy chaudhuri

Katsu Jin Ken

04-16-2009, 07:50 PM

How ever if you already have Sifu. An learn from him an also crosstrain by watching videos on Judo for throws, Chin Na for locks, MMA for submission and other WC lineages for difference of applications and energies on different techniques why is that wrong?

IMO cross training doesnt mean watching various youtube videos on how to do a throw. I watch alot of youtube myself but if i see something i like, my sifu is such all i have to do is say hey i saw this good looking throw on youtube can you teach it to me? Most of the time he goes, thats just this and that but you should do it like this because of your body type, height, weight ect... If you want to actually cross train in another MA then do so with an instructor. (by instructor i mean in person not a webstructor)

Yosh ive mastered the art of Web-Fu, i can send you instructions on my famous keyboard lock, mouse bar, Caps-lock guard, space bar right or alt+Ctrl+shift combo

lol

AdrianK

04-16-2009, 08:23 PM

Perhaps also for somewhat the same reason that someone who may know a one or two or even 5 string instrument can be a rank beginner with a seven string instrument.

The major problem with your analogy is the instrument(the human body) is the same among all wing chun lineages.

AdrianK

04-16-2009, 08:25 PM

I think you will find that it is.

But not everything can be bought.

I think you will find that it can.

But not always with money :eek:

Yoshiyahu

04-16-2009, 08:52 PM

Actually...what you got on the net is instructional videos which makes your basic arts better. Mostly I only look at Aikido, Judo and Wing Chun videos since I have experience in that an understand it the most. It really helps my WC. Along with practicing. But as for watching a video. Essentially that is all you do at first. Is watch your Sifu an mimic what he is doing. When he watches you do something wrong then he corrects you!

Then you train and retrain the correction!

IMO cross training doesnt mean watching various youtube videos on how to do a throw. I watch alot of youtube myself but if i see something i like, my sifu is such all i have to do is say hey i saw this good looking throw on youtube can you teach it to me? Most of the time he goes, thats just this and that but you should do it like this because of your body type, height, weight ect... If you want to actually cross train in another MA then do so with an instructor. (by instructor i mean in person not a webstructor)

Yosh ive mastered the art of Web-Fu, i can send you instructions on my famous keyboard lock, mouse bar, Caps-lock guard, space bar right or alt+Ctrl+shift combo

lol

Edmund

04-16-2009, 08:58 PM

So why is it that people feel videos need to be so secreative. Why not just share it. Because a video won't give you all of the corrections and golden nuggets to assist with your improvement. How ever if you already have Sifu. An learn from him an also crosstrain by watching videos on Judo for throws, Chin Na for locks, MMA for submission and other WC lineages for difference of applications and energies on different techniques why is that wrong?

Nothing wrong with that IMHO.
Nothing wrong with paragraph breaks either BTW.

Video is just another way to communicate and like all forms of communication there's the opportunity to deceive people. Not all information out there is good and complaining about it doesn't change that.

Vajramusti

04-16-2009, 10:57 PM

TenTigers

04-17-2009, 11:29 AM

Sure, with your logic.

The karate Tenso's side outer block is WCK's Tan sau

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pBE6EwmkdU&feature=related

So WCK is from Karate.

WCner needs to learn from Mas Oyama how to do SLT/SNT.

and BTW there are all type of WCK technics in Tenso, so, obviously WCK is from Kyokushin!
Right?

So, Hung Gar also equal to Kyokushin Karate?

.

Tell us here where in Hung GAr you can find

WCK's "comes accept Goes return ...." kuen kuit?

and

How do you do WCK's fast jin or short jin?

What type of JIn Iron wire cultivate?

Why did IRon wire mention Qi cultivation within the set and in which kuen kuit?

please Share with us all the details.

You could be totally right. however that doesnt say anything right? see, those are not legitimate reference.

No, you have it backwards. Tensho was derived from Fukien Siu-Lum/Bak Hok P'ai. From China to Okinawa, to Japan.
"Comes accept, goes return" is contained within the Sup Yee Kiu Sao Faht. Not as shown in Tiet Sien Kuen, but felt through the hand.

One only has to, as I, and others have had the opportunity and privelige to, meet and touch Lam Jo's hand to feel his short bridging skills, short power, speed, sensitivity-and this was when he was 98.

Sure, one can buy videos, dvd's and learn the skin and hair of a set. That is just the outside appearance, not the actual skill.
But to understand any real Gung-Fu, one needs to feel the hand. It can only be taught through direct transmission. Not simply by watching and imitating a video.
People who think they "get it" are only decieving themselves.

Hendrik

04-17-2009, 11:49 AM

No, you have it backwards. Tensho was derived from Fukien Siu-Lum/Bak Hok P'ai. From China to Okinawa, to Japan.

I agree.

as I said in the previous post " with your logic."

Now, may be it is the good question to ask which is older Hung Gar or White Crane and Where is the White Crane element of Hung Gar from? is Hung GAr learn from White Crane Or White Crane learn from Hung Gar? when is Hung gar having Crane elements?

We know, WCK is from White Crane.

"Comes accept, goes return" is contained within the Sup Yee Kiu Sao Faht. Not as shown in Tiet Sien Kuen, but felt through the hand.

How do you know "Comes accept, goes return" is contained within the Sup Yee Kiu Sao Faht?

and to be honest, felt through the hand is respected but cant be a reference.

One only has to, as I, and others have had the opportunity and privelige to, meet and touch Lam Jo's hand to feel his short bridging skills, short power, speed, sensitivity-and this was when he was 98.

I have no doubt Lam Jo has advance Kung fu but is it the same with advance WCK? that is the question.

What is WCK? "Comes accept, goes return" means for you? what is the process of WCK cultivate its Jin compare with Hung Gar which is using Iron Wire? who have you learn from? otherwise, how do you compare?

see, disregard of how we think, the following is the description of Hung gar. and how is this can be WCK? as it said 硬桥硬马，刚劲有力，以气催力，以声...。 Hard bridge and hard horse, Kong Jin fill with li, Using breathing to push power, using voice to support ....

洪拳是以龙、虎、狮、豹、蛇、鹤、象、马、猴、虎的象形与特性结合武术技法创编而成。有单形拳术，如龙拳、虎拳等；亦有混合形拳术，如虎鹤双形拳、五形拳、十形拳等。其风格特点是：手法丰富，腿法较少，步稳势烈，硬桥硬马，刚劲有力，以气催力，以声助威。

TenTigers

04-17-2009, 12:26 PM

[QUOTE=Hendrik;930311]
What is WCK? "Comes accept, goes return" means for you? what is the process of WCK cultivate its Jin compare with Hung Gar which is using Iron Wire? who have you learn from? otherwise, how do you compare?"

Ging is cultivated in many other ways-Tiet Sien Kuen is only one method, and the method shown is but one method. Within TSK, there are many breakdowns, each being different. That is like saying SNT is the ONLY method WCK cultivates ging. We all know this not to be true. There are many Lien Gung methods within both systems.

I am still in the process of learning. I have met with and continue to regularly meet with Sifus of several lines of Hung-Ga-(Ho Lap Tien, Jow Wing Duk, Yuen Ling,Chan Tai-Hing, Lao Ke Tong-all Tang Fong line, as well as Sifus from Lam Sai-Wing line, as well as other lines from outside of Hong Kong) We exchange, share, discuss, and play in order to enrich our knowledge and continue to evolve our Gung-Fu.

see, disregard of how we think, the following is the description of Hung gar. and how is this can be WCK? as it said 硬桥硬马，刚劲有力，以气催力，以声...。 Hard bridge and hard horse, Kong Jin fill with li, Using breathing to push power, using voice to support ....

Whose description? Gwok Si, Gwok Faht-each Sifu has his own method, his own experience, his own understanding and refinements and evolution. To wit,Hung-Ga may posess the hard bridge, hard horse, and it is used often, but it is only a small part of how the hand is played. Using breath to push power is understood differently by different people. Hei is not simply breath, yi leads hei, and walks hand in hand with ging and lik. Voice supports but at other levels, the voice is not audible. The breath can be like a baby's.

TenTigers

04-17-2009, 12:45 PM

also-Tiet Sien Kuen is not all about tension. It is very much concerned with release.
You, being a WCK pratitioner, and not a Hung-Ga practitioner, may not be fully aware of many of the actual teachings and methods contained within this vast system, just as my small experience in WCK, prevents me from having the full understanding of this art. But it also is that which prevents me from making false a$$umptions.

TenTigers

04-17-2009, 12:52 PM

"Essentially that is all you do at first. Is watch your Sifu an mimic what he is doing. When he watches you do something wrong then he corrects you!"

This is the beginner's level. The real corrections come from touch.
Even when first learning SNT, your Sifu touches and feels your structure. He doesn't simply reposition your hands. It is not a display.

AdrianK

04-17-2009, 01:37 PM

The major problem with your analogy is the instrument(the human body) is the same among all wing chun lineages.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are entitled to your opinion- but IMO, there are vast differences in the meaning of the body and how various parts are used in different versions of wing chun. Stances, structures, motions,
muscle, joints, tendon usage appears to vary widely to a discerning eye.

joy chaudhuri

Well I never meant that there aren't. I just meant that your analogy was off. :D The vast differences in meaning of the body and how various parts work can be compared to for instance, six-string instruments and how many variations there are. Acoustic, Electric, not to mention all of the various types, styles of music you can play, etc.

Hendrik

04-17-2009, 04:20 PM

Whose description? Gwok Si, Gwok Faht-each Sifu has his own method, his own experience, his own understanding and refinements and evolution. .

Your opinion sure is acceptable.

as your the Gwok Si, Gwok Faht stuffs.

I follow my sigung's teaching, where he follows Yik Kam my ancestors' teaching. and Yik Kam follow Miu Shun the creator of our SLT's teaching. That is what the family tree and position is about.

My sigung, LateGm Cho On who was Gm YKS and GM Yip Man's class, said that

Coffee needs to taste like coffee, it can be plain coffee, milk coffee, and other types of Coffee, but one cant call Tea as Coffee.

I also belive in Dr. Leung Ting's view on Kung Fu, where he says what one really used in the real life is their real kung fu.

With my simple minded, kung fu is simple, WCK is about LEt Go let God and flow, WCK doesnt do this kiu sau or that kiu sau. Everything is sau. because WCK kuen kuit said, Using silence to lead action. No particular shape No particular form. But flow.

and Kung fu is the long term conditioning until one and the art become one. Kung fu is not the explicit shape on mimic.

For me, I can only be one style and practice according to the Kuen Kuit of my lineage; I cant be Emei today, Shao LIn tomorrow, and Wudang the day after or I have everything.

In my lineage, there are milestones one achieved. If one train according to the Kuen kuit, one achieve the milestone when one's kung fu grow. I personally not at the point to evolve the system or develop and new system yet. For, in the past 150 years, there still non in our lineage surpast Yik Kam our ancestor.

So, my personal experience means not much because my personal experience is within the low level expected mile stone as predicted in our lineage.

TenTigers

04-17-2009, 04:30 PM

"See, for me thing is simple, WCK is about LEt Go let God and flow, WCK doesnt do this kiu sau or that kiu sau. Everything is sau. because WCK kuen kuit said, Using silence to lead action. No particular shape No particular form. But flow."

I agree wholeheartedly with this, Hendrick. As I understand it, the sup yee kiu sao are not so much separate kiu sau, but simply a way to describe qualities of energy/usage/movement. The trouble is, when someone tries to pass on knowledge, break it down into words, rather than through touch, much is lost rather than maintained, and it becomes overcomplicated. In reality, there is only sau. When I play with my teacher and ask him which bridge he used, he reponds with,"I don't have any idea. My hand just..goes." Once you nail it down into words, you lose the entire concept.
"The tao (sau)that can be named is not the true tao (sau)."

Hendrik

04-17-2009, 06:19 PM

Hendrik

04-17-2009, 06:51 PM

Ging is cultivated in many other ways-Tiet Sien Kuen is only one method, and the method shown is but one method.

Within TSK, there are many breakdowns, each being different.

That is like saying SNT is the ONLY method WCK cultivates ging.

We all know this not to be true.

There are many Lien Gung methods within both systems.

.

IMHO,

SLT train one type of platform, and from this platform different Jin surfaces. and the whole WCK infact only needs one type of core platform. Because it is impractical to have a Shao lin, a Wudang....etc. it doesnt make sense and the mind/body can only be cultivate one way, unless one is super genious.

similar to meditaion training, either it is Buddhist which cultivate the Buddha Nature or the Daoist which cultivate the Qi and then Shen. There cannot be practice both Buddhist and Daoist meditation in the same time, because they conflict.

TSK is a different type of platform. and thus from this platform different jin surfaces.

That is analogy to Striking with a hammer platform and Cross bow platform. Different type of jin will surface from these platform and they are different.

Those who cultivate the Hammer type of platform will not get the Cross bow platform, thus, those who have the type of Jin in Cross bow will not be the same with the Jin in the Hammer type.

However, Thus, I have heard from the old timer, most people today have never develop these platform. It stops at general muscular force generation. Thus, one cannot differentiate which is which because there has none to begin with. the kung fu is not even deep enough to enter the door.

For example,

paid attention to all these Iron Wire clip from different GM.
See the common denominator of how these GMs manage the breathing, see how to applied force using the Dandien, using the sound.....etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU8XtUh7Cg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH9tFkjg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&index=28&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM

Now, look at this clip on Yik Kam SLT/ mother of SLT the emei 12 zhuang, pay attention how the person start with align the mind and body to enter silence and then cultivate the flow, using as little force or practically working on "let go"/ relax spread, How he let the Qi sink....

Since the WCK kuen kuit said, Using the silence to lead action, the first step of this SLT training is to cultivate enter into the silence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

also

This is how GM TST cultivate his SNT from Gm Ip Man lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJX216fiIbs

Gm Ip Man himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxMLp8TXno&feature=related

For me, by evidence, these are different platform, different Jin comes out of different platform.
Thus, for me, Hung gar and Yik Kam's SLT from the Red Boat era are very different art. training in one platform will not get the jin of other platform. The body condition by one way will be different then the body condition by another way. and the accumulation of body conditioning cannot change over night or acqure over night. those are the Kung fu.

as for the application of SLT/SNT, IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHo, without the the set straight and cultivate the mind/body conditioning, there is no application. beause there is no Kung thus, no WC Kung fu.

Golden Arms

04-20-2009, 12:32 PM

Here is where it gets difficult Hendrik,

I think that you made some strong points with that last post. Unfortunately we are dealing with perception, and typing/talking as our medium of transfer of ideas.

From my perspective thus far,

Many teachers don't pass on the spirit/flavor/kyun kyut of their systems until much later, or may not stress them as "the only way". This leads to people viewing their systems as the movements and what those movements/shapes feel like to perform. From the shapes perspective, Hung and Wing Chung share much.

From the spirit of how they are practiced, they are indeed often practiced very differently. I have elements of my practice that are very much in the 'quiet' method, but I would not say that in general, that is stressed in sets like TSK, with the same flavor as in the footage you posted. (PM for details if you want them)

You bring up a good point. Depending on where on the path the practitioner is, they may see the system as movements, they may see the systems as strong or weak in certain ranges, they may see the system as the 'spiritual approach' taken towards situations, etc. Much like Zen/Chan, you simply are, where you are on your path. For this same reason I wonder sometimes if what I practice will even still "be" Hung Gar, past a certain point, since I use the movements and shapes of Hung, but the Spirit continues to evolve.

Going over my thoughts out loud in part, I hope some of that was cohesive.

Yoshiyahu

04-20-2009, 01:20 PM

From reading your post. it sounds like one should want to be specialist in one area. Oppose to cross training lets say Hung Gar and Wing Chun. Would you say its extremely difficult to learn,practice and cultivate the Kungs from Hung Gar and WC?

Would it be more benefical for someone to choose one an develop the Kung for that system??????

Why type of Kung does one develop from Wing Chun in your opinion...

I always thought of one the well known kungs of Wing Chun was Short Fajing or inch power.

Please share what you think?

IMHO,

SLT train one type of platform, and from this platform different Jin surfaces. and the whole WCK infact only needs one type of core platform. Because it is impractical to have a Shao lin, a Wudang....etc. it doesnt make sense and the mind/body can only be cultivate one way, unless one is super genious.

similar to meditaion training, either it is Buddhist which cultivate the Buddha Nature or the Daoist which cultivate the Qi and then Shen. There cannot be practice both Buddhist and Daoist meditation in the same time, because they conflict.

TSK is a different type of platform. and thus from this platform different jin surfaces.

That is analogy to Striking with a hammer platform and Cross bow platform. Different type of jin will surface from these platform and they are different.

Those who cultivate the Hammer type of platform will not get the Cross bow platform, thus, those who have the type of Jin in Cross bow will not be the same with the Jin in the Hammer type.

However, Thus, I have heard from the old timer, most people today have never develop these platform. It stops at general muscular force generation. Thus, one cannot differentiate which is which because there has none to begin with. the kung fu is not even deep enough to enter the door.

For example,

paid attention to all these Iron Wire clip from different GM.
See the common denominator of how these GMs manage the breathing, see how to applied force using the Dandien, using the sound.....etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU8XtUh7Cg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH9tFkjg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&index=28&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM

Now, look at this clip on Yik Kam SLT/ mother of SLT the emei 12 zhuang, pay attention how the person start with align the mind and body to enter silence and then cultivate the flow, using as little force or practically working on "let go"/ relax spread, How he let the Qi sink....

Since the WCK kuen kuit said, Using the silence to lead action, the first step of this SLT training is to cultivate enter into the silence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

also

This is how GM TST cultivate his SNT from Gm Ip Man lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJX216fiIbs

Gm Ip Man himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxMLp8TXno&feature=related

For me, by evidence, these are different platform, different Jin comes out of different platform.
Thus, for me, Hung gar and Yik Kam's SLT from the Red Boat era are very different art. training in one platform will not get the jin of other platform. The body condition by one way will be different then the body condition by another way. and the accumulation of body conditioning cannot change over night or acqure over night. those are the Kung fu.

as for the application of SLT/SNT, IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHo, without the the set straight and cultivate the mind/body conditioning, there is no application. beause there is no Kung thus, no WC Kung fu.

Katsu Jin Ken

04-20-2009, 03:35 PM

Many teachers don't pass on the spirit/flavor/kyun kyut of their systems until much later, or may not stress them as "the only way". This leads to people viewing their systems as the movements and what those movements/shapes feel like to perform. From the shapes perspective, Hung and Wing Chung share much.

I totally agree, my sifu often refers to wing chun as "the black belts art" because from his experiences wing chun teaches the "black belt level" stuff right from the beginning, the "flavor" of the art is taught (at my school) right from the beginning, our wing chun is not traditional if you can use it in combat it isnt practiced, even our chi sao is much different than anything ive seen on youtube it very alive and we change levels often much like sifu Chu's we are workin on some vids to hopefully post asap.

Askari Hodari

04-20-2009, 04:40 PM

LOL, sounds like all Wing Chun in St Louis is done in underground secret societies and by invitation only run by retired masters who are now in witness protection with secret identities..

One more reason why I'm just passing through.

Hendrik

04-20-2009, 05:03 PM

Depending on where on the path the practitioner is, they may see the system as movements, they may see the systems as strong or weak in certain ranges, they may see the system as the 'spiritual approach' taken towards situations, etc.

Much like Zen/Chan, you simply are, where you are on your path. For this same reason I wonder sometimes if what I practice will even still "be" Hung Gar, past a certain point, since I use the movements and shapes of Hung, but the Spirit continues to evolve.
.

IMHO,

This is the level where most have never touched it or even know it exist.

This is the level of needed the specific details and Xum Faat or the Heart Method.

each indepth art has a specific details and Xum Faat which is unique.

Thus, one cultivate according to that Xum Faat and it wont run into Do I do Yee Jin Jing of Shao LIn or Do I do Emei 12 Zhuang since both of them needs to enter into silence before practice.

For the Yee JIn Jing and Emei 12 Zhuang Case, the Yee Jin Jing starts with open up/activate the Lung medirians. Emei 12 Zhuang starts with open up/activate the liver medirians......

Those are deeper level of differentiation.

Certainly, Wing Chun today evolve as we know, There are Hung Gar + Wing Chun, there are Taiji+ Wing Chun, There are Bjj + Wing Chun, There are CLF +Wing Chun........ everything is ok as soon as one knows what is it.

The following are an example in my own lineage,

This is SLT training which is evolve toward the Southern Shao LIn, Hung Gar, CLF....etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w

This is a typical SLT training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBsnNDXKI8

This is SLT training which is using the SLT kuen kuit and the mother Emei 12 Zhuang as guideline

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

This is Southern Shao lin evolution type

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ

This is Hung Gar evolution type
http://www.shaolin.org/combat/wingchoon.html

This is older version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80

See how different are them even they are within the same lineage from the same ancestor Yik Kam after 100+ years. another 20 years how far it will varies?

Hendrik

04-20-2009, 05:17 PM

it sounds like one should want to be specialist in one area.

why do one called one WCner is one is not specialist in WCK?

Why type of Kung does one develop from Wing Chun in your opinion...

you dont need my opinion, for Wing Chun it obviously have to be Wing Chun Kung right?

I always thought of one the well known kungs of Wing Chun was Short Fajing or inch power.

Is Kung equal to Fajing? what is Kung? what is Fa Jing?

Yoshiyahu

04-21-2009, 09:26 AM

Hmm is Kung Equal to Fajin?

Yes and NO I would say.

Is Tiger Claw a Kung? Yes
Are Light Skills a Kung? Yes
Is Phoenix Eye Fist a Kung? Yes
Is Iron Palm a Kung? Yes
Is Iron Arms and Iron Shins a Kung? Yes
Is Iron Body a Kung? Yes
Is Shortpower a Kung? Yes
Are Iron finger conditioning a Kung? Yes

Not every system uses Fajin type of energy. There is exploding, pushing, pulling dispersing,piercing or pentrating and other types of energy that can be utilize.

So yes Fajin would be a Kung to develop to give your WC teeth. WC is a gun and Kungs are the bullets. Can you use a gun with out bullets?

Well Yes and No. You can beat someone on the head with the butt of the gun. But someone else who has a gun and bullets with defeat you and your gun if you don't have Ammo!

Just my opinion! Please share yours?

What Kungs should one wish to develop in Wing Chun?

Oh an to our second question a Kung is skill! Isn't developing Root,Lightskills,Fajin,Iron Palm and or iron conditioning Skills?

Isn't Kung Fu skill work or Aqcuired Skill?

Is Kung equal to Fajing? what is Kung? what is Fa Jing?

LSWCTN1

04-21-2009, 03:18 PM

who said earlier that hung gar and wing chun have similarities?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k1u7Fn0ahM&feature=related

some of this looks extremely familiar!

also, Hendrik, in your last video at around 30 seconds in. there is a picture of the two 'main' different body structures we tend to see in YM wc. is that only this way because the camera caught a transition shot, or is the way it should be?

which of the two does your Yik Kam system advocate?

kind regards

David

Hendrik

04-21-2009, 04:06 PM

who said earlier that hung gar and wing chun have similarities?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k1u7Fn0ahM&feature=related

some of this looks extremely familiar!

A very different type of body mechanics if you know where to look.

also, Hendrik, in your last video at around 30 seconds in. there is a picture of the two 'main' different body structures we tend to see in YM wc. is that only this way because the camera caught a transition shot, or is the way it should be?

Dont understand what you refer to as Two"main" different body structure?

which of the two does your Yik Kam system advocate?

Yik kam put internal structure more important then the external shape.

An example is when Yik Kam went to teach in Cho family, Yik kam ask them to keep doing their old other styles' forms but change the way how they do it in WCK way.

Hendrik

04-21-2009, 04:33 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0&feature=related

LSWCTN1

04-22-2009, 01:01 AM

A very different type of body mechanics if you know where to look.

Dont understand what you refer to as Two"main" different body structure?

Yik kam put internal structure more important then the external shape.

An example is when Yik Kam went to teach in Cho family, Yik kam ask them to keep doing their old other styles' forms but change the way how they do it in WCK way.

oh, of course, the mechanics will be different, but some of the movements are simillar. especially the opening sequence. like you said with the cho family forms - they may externally look the same as standard choi le fut etc. but they now have wc principles no?

the two main body structures that are often argued about are the pelvis pushed forward, and the body leaning back slightly, and the tailbone just slightly 'popped' out (at least thats how i am taught) and the back completely straight.

what i mean is that the internal structure cannot be the same for these two different shapes. i was wondering if your cho family material prefers one method or the other?

kind regards

David

omarthefish

04-22-2009, 05:47 AM

It's ok.

Hendrik is incapable of finding common threads among martial arts. He believes that Wing Chun is unique and that none of the core ideas can be found anywhere else.

He's "special" that way. ;)

TenTigers

04-22-2009, 08:31 AM

I have said this before;
Take two people, put them in a vaccuum-meaning without any outside help.
Have them develop short-range fighting. They will, by neccesity, develop the following:
1. ebows in, hands foward-protecting the intercostals and internal organs, and intercepting the opponent's strikes
2. sensitivity/bridge training-running, sticking, trapping
3. short power/unified body power
4. chest swallowed, sacrum tucked, chin tucked,knees in (some variation of YJKYM)
5. vital point striking-weapon development
6. evasive footwork
Add to that that WCK, Hakka Kuen (Bak Mei, Lung Ying,SPM) Nam Siu-Lum, share common ancestory, is it no wonder that there are similarities?
It is not coincidence. The similarities far outweigh the differences.
Sure, each style will develop idiosynchrocies, subtle differences,various specialities and development, but they didn't reinvent the wheel.
They simply have different hubcaps.

t_niehoff

04-22-2009, 09:43 AM

Hendrik

04-22-2009, 02:38 PM

oh, of course, the mechanics will be different, but some of the movements are simillar. especially the opening sequence.

If you following this thread, in the previous threads we discuss on one sees different stuffs depend on one's level.

like you said with the cho family forms - they may externally look the same as standard choi le fut etc. but they now have wc principles no?

1, Very often, I have going around asking my school mates are they still do WCK or some other art?

or even it have reached the point, the CLF specialist said one is just monkey around with the movement while the WCK spricilaist said there is no WCK at all.

2, I also I dont buy everyone's "the externally look the same as Standard CLF but using WC principle stuffs. " story.

Yik Kam might be able to do it but how close is one's kung fu relative to Yik Kam?

and also, even Yik Kam can do it, if he meet the founder of CLF or the second generation top student of CLF they will right a way tell Yik kam is not doing CLF even it might looks like.

It is like Yik Kam is good in Act as Female in the opera, but he is not a woman no matter how great is his perfomance.

3, The Yik Kam teaching is something there 100 years or more ago, is it applicable today?

Thus, my view is simply " Do only WCK as written and teach by Yik Kam and nothing else."

Until one is a Specialist, dont pull any stunt and end up becoming a monkey doing monkey business.

the two main body structures that are often argued about are the pelvis pushed forward, and the body leaning back slightly, and the tailbone just slightly 'popped' out (at least thats how i am taught) and the back completely straight.

what i mean is that the internal structure cannot be the same for these two different shapes.

i was wondering if your cho family material prefers one method or the other?

1, what is internal structure means for you?

2, Applied to the Yik Kam lineage only, Anyone who knows the internal structure of Yik Kam lineage will not ask the question you ask. Because what you ask is proper with your understanding but nature doesnt work this way. and Yik Kam's teaching is focus on harmony to the nature instead of following some man made rule or structure.

it is like asking is rainbow black or white?

TenTigers

04-22-2009, 04:48 PM

it is like asking is rainbow black or white?

black, right? It's black. Am I right? What'd I win?

(I knew it! I knew it was black!)

Katsu Jin Ken

04-22-2009, 06:12 PM

a trip to see the leprechaun

LSWCTN1

04-23-2009, 01:09 AM

If you following this thread, in the previous threads we discuss on one sees different stuffs depend on one's level.

1, Very often, I have going around asking my school mates are they still do WCK or some other art?

or even it have reached the point, the CLF specialist said one is just monkey around with the movement while the WCK spricilaist said there is no WCK at all.

2, I also I dont buy everyone's "the externally look the same as Standard CLF but using WC principle stuffs. " story.

Yik Kam might be able to do it but how close is one's kung fu relative to Yik Kam?

and also, even Yik Kam can do it, if he meet the founder of CLF or the second generation top student of CLF they will right a way tell Yik kam is not doing CLF even it might looks like.

It is like Yik Kam is good in Act as Female in the opera, but he is not a woman no matter how great is his perfomance.

3, The Yik Kam teaching is something there 100 years or more ago, is it applicable today?

Thus, my view is simply " Do only WCK as written and teach by Yik Kam and nothing else."

Until one is a Specialist, dont pull any stunt and end up becoming a monkey doing monkey business.

1, what is internal structure means for you?

2, Applied to the Yik Kam lineage only, Anyone who knows the internal structure of Yik Kam lineage will not ask the question you ask. Because what you ask is proper with your understanding but nature doesnt work this way. and Yik Kam's teaching is focus on harmony to the nature instead of following some man made rule or structure.

it is like asking is rainbow black or white?

sorry if i came off rude, i certainly didnt mean too - i am genuinly interested in your system

in answer to your question, internal structure (to me) means creating a strong but mobile foundation to work from. one that allows you to advance/move very fast but still having a strong foundation from which to deliver your blow. which, for us, is the most important factor - dealing with what the opponent has (whether that be by cutting the angles, blocking/parrying/ whatever) and creating the opening to become the attackER not the defender

if by internals, you mean chi, then we dont have that in my system. UNLESS, by chi - you are talking about proper structural alignment? that would be a minefield that i am not particularly knowledgeable on

kind regards

david

Yoshiyahu

04-23-2009, 07:02 AM

Why do some Wing Chun Guys say they do not have Chi...

Thats just nonsense?

Do you practice Sil Lim Tao? Do you practice the Wooden Dummy form...Do you hit a wall bag...do you stand in YGKYM for prolonged periods to develop your stance?

If so you have Chi...

All these things along with punching the air develop chi in different ways.

sorry if i came off rude, i certainly didnt mean too - i am genuinly interested in your system

in answer to your question, internal structure (to me) means creating a strong but mobile foundation to work from. one that allows you to advance/move very fast but still having a strong foundation from which to deliver your blow. which, for us, is the most important factor - dealing with what the opponent has (whether that be by cutting the angles, blocking/parrying/ whatever) and creating the opening to become the attackER not the defender

if by internals, you mean chi, then we dont have that in my system. UNLESS, by chi - you are talking about proper structural alignment? that would be a minefield that i am not particularly knowledgeable on

kind regards

david

t_niehoff

04-23-2009, 07:17 AM

If you following this thread, in the previous threads we discuss on one sees different stuffs depend on one's level.

Rant alert:

Hendrik, I actually agree with you. What you say is true in any endeavor: we can only look at things from our own particular POV which is based on our personal level of development in that endeavor.

But that raises the important question: how do we know what our personal level of development in WCK is? In my view, the only way to determine one's level in a fighting method is by their ability to use what they train actually in fighting. There is no other way. Being able to do something outside fo fighting doesn't mean you can do it in fighting. You can't judge your ability to do something in fighting by not fighting. Moreover, you can't judge anything in a MA except by and through fighting (and with competent fighters).

What I don't hear on these and other threads are people (like you) saying things like "I find this works great against the boxers I train with" or "this works great against the MT fighters I spar with" or "this works great down at the MMA gym". Rather, what I do hear on these and other threads is lots of THEORY, of various IDEAS of how people without actual fighting experience doing the things they talk about believe things should be done. I don't care about experience doing forms or experience doing san sao or chi sao or how you interpret a kuit because that isn't fighting. If someone -- anyone -- can use qi, short power strikes or whatever successfully in fighting, then let's see it. But we never do. And that's because they're not doing it in fighting, they've never done it in fighting, and they've never seen it done in fighting.

Hendrik, you're right-- your perspecitive will depend on your personal level of development. And if you are a nonfighter with WCK, then your personal level of develoment is LOW. You are a beginner and will remain a beginner regardless of however long you've "been in the art", regardless of your title, regardless of your lineage, regardless of certifications, etc. You can't have an "understanding" of how WCK works since you have little to no experience ever seeing WCK work or even trying to make it work in fighting.

The above statement implies that if we don't agree with HENDRIK's view of "SLT" and "proper" WCK development, then we just aren't at YOUR "level". You're right. Of course, you believe that you are more advanced, have a greater "understanding" of these things, etc. But that's where you're wrong. In actually, since you don't and can't do these things in fighting, you're really only at a beginner level. Now, if you can do these things you talk about in fighting, I would be very interested in them. I'm interested in performance, and if you can offer something that will increase my skill and performance, I'm on board. But what you don't seem to grasp is that fighters don't care about THEORY or IDEAS UNLESS THEY ARE PROVEN TO WORK IN FIGHTING (and against competent people). That's the gold standard.

So instead of talking about your interpretation of kuit, about stories from the past, showing nonfighting demos or forms of "masters", show these things in fighting and working against competent fighters. Anything else is empty.

CFT

04-23-2009, 07:20 AM

Yoshiyahu

04-23-2009, 09:25 AM

That is not the same as the cultivating qi via Taoist/Buddhist qigong practices.

Food and drink also gives us qi, but that is still not the same as deliberate/sustained cultivation.

Your right its not the same. But at an advance level both end up being the same...

Tai Chi gets more external and harder at advance stages...An other more external arts get softer at the advance level. One just trains externally or internally more in the beginning an later adds the second part. But the key in my opinion is

Yee

Breath

Slow and Soft Movements in unison with the three dan tiens.

Study Sil lim Tau. Notice at which points your hand movements are reflective from your three Dan Tiens. I have notice more concentration or alignment is made with the Middle Dan Tien. Have you noticed this too? The second most frequent place is the lower Dan Tien.

LSWCTN1

04-23-2009, 09:39 AM

Why do some Wing Chun Guys say they do not have Chi...

Thats just nonsense?

Do you practice Sil Lim Tao? Do you practice the Wooden Dummy form...Do you hit a wall bag...do you stand in YGKYM for prolonged periods to develop your stance?

If so you have Chi...

All these things along with punching the air develop chi in different ways.

so, are you saying that i must have chi?

i dont feel that i have it, although i do feel that i am aligned properly - in a structural sense (is that what you mean?)

i have seen a chi demonstration - it was actually hw108's sifu! it was which chi 'reference point' to use when striking different points - it seemed realistic. i dont have that. i strike in a way that feels natural to me - but not in that way.

some people that i ask say that chi is just proper structural alignment. some people believe that it is a 'magical' power.

it is not something in the wsl system (as far as i know) and it is in the Lee Shing system, but my father never learnt it - so cannot pass it on (i believe its more 'closed-door' in the LS system)

all the best

David

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 10:57 AM

]sorry if i came off rude, i certainly didnt mean too - i am genuinly interested in your system

I dont think you are being rude at all.

if by internals, you mean chi, then we dont have that in my system. UNLESS, by chi - you are talking about proper structural alignment? that would be a minefield that i am not particularly knowledgeable on

To be real honest, we dont even have to get to the Qi stuffs. Yes, Qi exist and the training exist. but most will not commit to go that far.

so, What we need to get into is what is the reality on our body in the most basic level. Those are the most fundamental building block before those Qi cultivation stuffs could be carry out.

the two main body structures that are often argued about are the pelvis pushed forward, and the body leaning back slightly, and the tailbone just slightly 'popped' out (at least thats how i am taught) and the back completely straight.

to take things the above way and argue about it means one doesnt know the nature of human body and breathing and taking consideration of them.

Thus, how far will a "structure" contribute if it is not supporting by the nature of the body and breathing?

Internal structure in Yik Kam lineage means taking consideration on the key nature of the body, breathing, mind.

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 11:16 AM

Hendrik, I actually agree with you. What you say is true in any endeavor: we can only look at things from our own particular POV which is based on our personal level of development in that endeavor.

OK.

But that raises the important question: how do we know what our personal level of development in WCK is? In my view, the only way to determine one's level in a fighting method is by their ability to use what they train actually in fighting. There is no other way. Being able to do something outside fo fighting doesn't mean you can do it in fighting. You can't judge your ability to do something in fighting by not fighting. Moreover, you can't judge anything in a MA except by and through fighting (and with competent fighters).

with your speculating Critical mind, you are absolute right.

But then,

We dont even have to go that far yet.

I have asked you the Two simple questions on YJKYM and SLT, until now, you still didnt answer them.

Now, until you answer them

1, sorry to say, how can I know you even know the most most most most most basic of WCK?

2, It is not pragmatic to examine things by jumping step isnt it? anyone with Critical mind will be able to tell you so.

The above statement implies that if we don't agree with HENDRIK's view of "SLT" and "proper" WCK development, then we just aren't at YOUR "level". You're right. Of course, you believe that you are more advanced, have a greater

That is what you said, not what I mean. Check on my previos post on other thread.

this thread is on SLT, why dont you post your answer to the two simple basic quesions.

What good to keep speculating ?

punchdrunk

04-23-2009, 11:51 AM

here is an article by Tsui Sheung Tin that addresses your questions Hendrik, but i do think different lineages (in fact different people) will really have different answers and none are really right or wrong although some may be better (more useful) than others.

www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

I look forward to others ideas as well.

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 12:38 PM

here is an article by Tsui Sheung Tin that addresses your questions Hendrik,

Good, that is GM TST's.

but i do think different lineages (in fact different people) will really have different answers

True.

and the purpose of that two basic questions are to let all bring up the different way and expectation they practice.

Result is directly related to what one practice.

none are really right or wrong although some may be better (more useful) than others.

Not true.

Cooking sand cant become rice eventhough there are different type of rice.

I look forward to others ideas as well.

Sure,

BTW, care to share what is your own way and practice?

t_niehoff

04-23-2009, 01:09 PM

with your speculating Critical mind, you are absolute right.

But then,

We dont even have to go that far yet.

I have asked you the Two simple questions on YJKYM and SLT, until now, you still didnt answer them.

Now, until you answer them

1, sorry to say, how can I know you even know the most most most most most basic of WCK?

2, It is not pragmatic to examine things by jumping step isnt it? anyone with Critical mind will be able to tell you so.

That is what you said, not what I mean. Check on my previos post on other thread.

this thread is on SLT, why dont you post your answer to the two simple basic quesions.

What good to keep speculating ?

Hendrik, you don't get it. YOU are the one speculating. You believe certain things about SLT and wing chun NOT BECAUSE OF EXPERIENCE FIGHTING with WCK (evidence) BUT out of theory, hearsay, speculation. Your questions themselves are meaningless, they're empty. They are the questions of a theoretical nonfighter. And, even if I were to answer your question, HOW COULD YOU KNOW IF I'M CORRECT OR NOT? You can't since the only way to know is by and through fighting, and you're not doing that. You can only know and "understand" WCK through experience fighting with WCK. Everything else is speculation.

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 01:51 PM

Hendrik, you don't get it. YOU are the one speculating. You believe certain things about SLT and wing chun NOT BECAUSE OF EXPERIENCE FIGHTING with WCK (evidence) BUT out of theory, hearsay, speculation.

Your questions themselves are meaningless, they're empty.

They are the questions of a theoretical nonfighter.

And, even if I were to answer your question, HOW COULD YOU KNOW IF I'M CORRECT OR NOT?

You can't since the only way to know is by and through fighting, and you're not doing that.

You can only know and "understand" WCK through experience fighting with WCK.

Everything else is speculation.

hahaha, either I dont get it or you are totally lost isnt it?

up to now, you still didnt answer the simple question. that is the fact.

No answer, No youtube clip, and keep speculating.

punchdrunk

04-23-2009, 02:31 PM

Hendrik you seem lost in your own ideas, you should take T.'s advice and gain some new experience. It is the only way out of your fantasy to become a sage of Wing Chun.

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 02:47 PM

Hendrik you seem lost in your own ideas, you should take T.'s advice and gain some new experience. It is the only way out of your fantasy to become a sage of Wing Chun.

Sage? me? hahahahaha

Become a sage of Wing Chun? you want to be one? go ahead.

I am interested only to hear different people's sharing on the two simple questions.

Care to share with us on your answer on the two simple questions?

Xiao3 Meng4

04-23-2009, 02:57 PM

As for new experience, I love new experience, thus, please share with us your answer of the two simple questions.

If you're asking about the physiological expression of YJKYM and SLT:

Sharing answers to questions like that over a forum would equate to new knowledge, not experience.

Experiencing the answers to those questions really requires the questioner to go out and touch hands with people.

EDIT: It's really annoying when you quote a post, only to discover that when you post your reply, the original post has changed considerably through edits.

punchdrunk

04-23-2009, 03:19 PM

If you're asking about the physiological expression of YJKYM and SLT:

Sharing answers to questions like that over a forum would equate to new knowledge, not experience.

Experiencing the answers to those questions really requires the questioner to go out and touch hands with people.

EDIT: It's really annoying when you quote a post, only to discover that when you post your reply, the original post has changed considerably through edits.

That's a very good distinction.

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 04:16 PM

That's a very good distinction.

Beside all the side track and getting personal,

you like to answer to the two questions which related to this thread?

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 04:22 PM

If you're asking about the physiological expression of YJKYM and SLT:

just two simple questions why make it so complicated?

Sharing answers to questions like that over a forum would equate to new knowledge, not experience.

That is for you might not applied to everyone.

Experiencing the answers to those questions really requires the questioner to go out and touch hands with people.

That is partial true.

EDIT: It's really annoying when you quote a post, only to discover that when you post your reply,

the original post has changed considerably through edits.[/QUOTE]

Why dont you complain to the forum manager to remove the editing function?

No one said one cannot change thier mind in a discussion right? It doesnt bother me, either others change their mind or I change my mind.

Let's not get side track, care to share your answers of the two basic questions?

Yoshiyahu

04-23-2009, 06:07 PM

When you breath in and out that is chi. Chi Gung is breath work.

You cultivate chi by eating food and breating air around you...

Practicing forms and Basics also cultivate more chi. You were born with Chi. Some people have more others have less. Theory is with out chi you die. So yes you must have chi. Anyone who fights well has more chi. Utlization of chi assist you with developing a kung. Be it striking power or pushing or lifting power. Its like this the more you do something the better you get at it. same thing with chi. it takes alot of practice. Everyone has chi...its not mystical...With out chi your cells can not work...your cells need oxygen to move. oxygen gives your cells energy.

Thus Chi is in the breath.

Natural breath or reverse breath take your pick.

Practice your Chain Punches Fast and Slow
Remember to breathe
Focus your intention at the end of your fist
Sink in your Stance
Relax

Now your developing Chi!

An you can use this in fighting!

so, are you saying that i must have chi?

i dont feel that i have it, although i do feel that i am aligned properly - in a structural sense (is that what you mean?)

i have seen a chi demonstration - it was actually hw108's sifu! it was which chi 'reference point' to use when striking different points - it seemed realistic. i dont have that. i strike in a way that feels natural to me - but not in that way.

some people that i ask say that chi is just proper structural alignment. some people believe that it is a 'magical' power.

it is not something in the wsl system (as far as i know) and it is in the Lee Shing system, but my father never learnt it - so cannot pass it on (i believe its more 'closed-door' in the LS system)

all the best

David

Phil Redmond

04-23-2009, 07:41 PM

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 08:56 PM

When you breath in and out that is chi. Chi Gung is breath work.

Qigong is a function of Breath. However, breath in and out doesnt default as chi and or Chi gung.

In fact, screw up breathing do harm to Chi.

You cultivate chi by eating food and breating air around you...

That is not true either. Eating food and breathing air around you produce different type of Qi but it is not cultivating Qi.

There are two part in Qi gong, part a, growing the Qi, part b, transport the Qi.

Both are needed to have a complete handling.

But before one can reach this state one needs to have a nature structure. otherwise one cant get this far.

Practicing forms and Basics also cultivate more chi.

That is not true either, in fact qigong related forms practice wrongly will create health or internal organs damage due to stagnated Qi or drain Qi.

Just face it most never get to this far on kung cultivation.

Hendrik

04-23-2009, 08:58 PM

LSWCTN1

04-24-2009, 05:09 AM

LSWCTN1

04-24-2009, 05:15 AM

When you breath in and out that is chi. Chi Gung is breath work.

You cultivate chi by eating food and breating air around you...

Practicing forms and Basics also cultivate more chi. You were born with Chi. Some people have more others have less. Theory is with out chi you die. So yes you must have chi. Anyone who fights well has more chi. Utlization of chi assist you with developing a kung. Be it striking power or pushing or lifting power. Its like this the more you do something the better you get at it. same thing with chi. it takes alot of practice. Everyone has chi...its not mystical...With out chi your cells can not work...your cells need oxygen to move. oxygen gives your cells energy.

Thus Chi is in the breath.

Natural breath or reverse breath take your pick.

Practice your Chain Punches Fast and Slow
Remember to breathe
Focus your intention at the end of your fist
Sink in your Stance
Relax

Now your developing Chi!

An you can use this in fighting!

so chi to you is just breath, or oxygen?

AFAIK that is quite misguided and you may have taken the translation of 'breath work' a little too literally

i dont believe in 'chi projection' (Derren Brown showed how that is done in 'The Heist') although i do feel that chi cultivation can improve your health and fitness. however, IMHHHHHO, that may be down to the same effects as faith healing.

t_niehoff

04-24-2009, 06:22 AM

Sage? me? hahahahaha

Become a sage of Wing Chun? you want to be one? go ahead.

I am interested only to hear different people's sharing on the two simple questions.

Care to share with us on your answer on the two simple questions?

Hendrik, your "two simple questions" as I told you are empty, meaningless, and are the questions of someone who doesn't know what they are doing. They (the questions themselves) make no real sense. To put it plainly, they are idiotic questions, and ANY answer to an idiotic question is also idiotic.

You only believe your questions make sense because you have no experience actually trying to fight with WCK. If you did that, you'd know better. Instead you have some view that these questions are important, that you (of course) know the answer, etc. You are the same as 97% of all WCK people: you can't do it in fighting but are certain you know how it should be done! You don't even realize that you are asking the WRONG QUESTIONS.

And I've tried to tell you that you can onlyfind the RIGHT QUESTIONS by trying to fight with your WCK. The fighting will bring out the questions. The questions of theoretical nonfighters are the questions of fantasy martial artists.

Look, a person either is DOING WCK (fighting with WCK) or they're not. If they are fighting with WCK, then they can see for themselves what is working in fighting, what is not working in fighting. But, if they are not fighting, then they can only IMAGINE what works or what doesn't work.

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 06:34 AM

t_niehoff

04-24-2009, 06:45 AM

I totally accept your point of view and your assumption , for you have your freedom in the way you like to think and express yourself.

If you would like to discuss something related to this thread, share your answer to the two questions.

There is no assumption on my part. YOU are the one assuming. You are assuming that your questions have merit, that the answers to your questions have significance, that you know the answers, etc. But as I keep trying to point out, this is all SPECULATION on your part. The only way to know is by seeing for yourself whether your assumptions are true -- and the only way to see that isn't to imagine the answer but to find out by actually fighting.

The answer to EVERY question in WCK is only found by and in fighting. Are there fighting applications to the SNT? Fight and find out. If you are fighting and are doing things from your SNT successfully and consistently, then you have your answer. If you're not fighting, then you can never know.

Yoshiyahu

04-24-2009, 08:58 AM

I'm going to try and stay on the thread topic. Many people say the SLT has no fighting apps and I'm not criticizing what others think or do. My SLT is chock full of fighting apps as are the other forms. Do any of you teach/learn fighting apps from SLT/SNT? I don''t mind showing the fighting apps in our SLT.

Excellent Post...Right Back on top...I actually forgot the purpose of this thread...We have been on some many various tangents.

so chi to you is just breath, or oxygen?

AFAIK that is quite misguided and you may have taken the translation of 'breath work' a little too literally

i dont believe in 'chi projection' (Derren Brown showed how that is done in 'The Heist') although i do feel that chi cultivation can improve your health and fitness. however, IMHHHHHO, that may be down to the same effects as faith healing.

Well who is Afaik? Anyway...Yes, In my opinion Chi is simply the breath which is the energy your cells needs to work. I hear alot of mumbo jumbo talk of mysterious philosopical thought. But I don't believe in Esoterical stuff. I believe in what I can Punch kick and feel against my face. As for Chi Projection it could be possible. But again it would take years of dedicated practice every day for hours. Just like running a mile. You run,You work the muscles and breath. As you exert the muscles they receive air traveling through your blood stream via blood cells. As for oxygen. Oxygen I stated because it is element in the air that everyone knows about. There are other Elements we also need to breathe in along with oxygen. But essentially in point of view thats what your doing...

Phyiscally working the muscles causing them strecth and strained an or become exhausted.

When your body gets exhausted you breath harder. When your muscles get exhausted they gasp for air too.

You do proper breath work the kind that won't cause harm.

You focus your mind mentally into doing the movements correctly and properly

Everytime you do a push up,pull up,sit up,run,chainpunch,chi sau,sil lim tao. Your cultivating chi. Contrarty to what ever any non-fighter says.

Mike Tyson didn't do any chi kung but test his chi out against your chin?

Mike Tyson chi was very strong. Many people develop chi in different areas.

As for hendrik I believe he is speaking about chi cultivation for healing. Thats great. That is what 18 Figure Chi Gung is for. That is what the Yang Long Form is for. But I am more concern about developing Chi for fighting with. I want to develop chi to point where I can project it. That would be nice. But I will settle for being able to do damage to someones face so they can not fight back and I can escape.

For Hendrik. Share with us about Chi Cultivation that can benefit a fighter? I am not talking about getting healthy or longevity.

If you really wanna get healthy an live longer...

1.Eat only Veggies.
2.Run one miles five times a week.
3.Do sit up and Push up six times a week.
4.Jump rope for five to twent mintues every day
5.Get a jack o lane juicer
6.Pray daily
7.Get atleast eight hours of sleep every night
8.Take Multivitamins
9.Shadow box daily
10.Spar a few times a week.

This will give you your desired health.

But Hendrik tell me about using Chi Kung to assist me in fighting. How can Chi Kung increase fighting skill or give one an advantage?

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 09:24 AM

There is no assumption on my part. YOU are the one assuming.

You are assuming that your questions have merit, that the answers to your questions have significance, that you know the answers, etc.

But as I keep trying to point out, this is all SPECULATION on your part.

The only way to know is by seeing for yourself whether your assumptions are true -- and the only way to see that isn't to imagine the answer but to find out by actually fighting.

The answer to EVERY question in WCK is only found by and in fighting.

Are there fighting applications to the SNT? Fight and find out.

If you are fighting and are doing things from your SNT successfully and consistently, then you have your answer. If you're not fighting, then you can never know.

sure , according to you you are 10000% right.

But the fact is you have no clue what is SLT ; under the criterion of the Chinese WCK ancestors' teaching.

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 09:31 AM

As for hendrik I believe he is speaking about chi cultivation for healing. Thats great. That is what 18 Figure Chi Gung is for. That is what the Yang Long Form is for. But I am more concern about developing Chi for fighting with.

That is your assumption.

I want to develop chi to point where I can project it. That would be nice.

But I will settle for being able to do damage to someones face so they can not fight back and I can escape.

That alone is the good reason any one who is expert in Qi will not reveal the art.

For Hendrik. Share with us about Chi Cultivation that can benefit a fighter? I am not talking about getting healthy or longevity.

Why do I want to do that?

If you really wanna get healthy an live longer...

1.Eat only Veggies.
2.Run one miles five times a week.
3.Do sit up and Push up six times a week.
4.Jump rope for five to twent mintues every day
5.Get a jack o lane juicer
6.Pray daily
7.Get atleast eight hours of sleep every night
8.Take Multivitamins
9.Shadow box daily
10.Spar a few times a week.

This will give you your desired health.

Good general advise which fit some.

But Hendrik tell me about using Chi Kung to assist me in fighting. How can Chi Kung increase fighting skill or give one an advantage?

I am not your sifu right? so ask your sifu.

Yoshiyahu

04-24-2009, 09:44 AM

There is no assumption on my part. YOU are the one assuming. You are assuming that your questions have merit, that the answers to your questions have significance, that you know the answers, etc. But as I keep trying to point out, this is all SPECULATION on your part. The only way to know is by seeing for yourself whether your assumptions are true -- and the only way to see that isn't to imagine the answer but to find out by actually fighting.

The answer to EVERY question in WCK is only found by and in fighting. Are there fighting applications to the SNT? Fight and find out. If you are fighting and are doing things from your SNT successfully and consistently, then you have your answer. If you're not fighting, then you can never know.

Excellent advice Terrence...So true...

Hendrix you are not my Sifu correct...But The purpose of this thread is Applications of Sil Lim Tao?

Do you know of atleast one? If so please share?

Also Hendrik how does one become an expert in Chi?

AS for Tai Chi and Chi Kung I study it a little.

Xiao3 Meng4

04-24-2009, 09:57 AM

But the fact is you have no clue what is SLT ; under the criterion of the Chinese WCK ancestors' teaching.

That is your assumption.

Why do I want to do that?

I am not your sifu right? so ask your sifu.

Dear Mr. Hypocrite,

I hope this letter finds you well. I would like to bring to your attention the vast discrepancy vis-a-vis the persistent requests you make on this forum regarding the sharing of information, and the attitude you take when others ask you to share.

I would also like, in simple terms, to bring to your attention the inequalities concerning your posts on Qi, Yi, and Shen, compared to the behaviours you exhibit as a poster on this forum. More than once, your response to people who actually do share as you requested has frequently been rude, conceited, egotistical and dismissive. Granted, you gradually, through edits, change the tone and content of your posts to be less so, however this knee-jerk, responsive habitual behaviour seems to reflect, in part, an unsettled Yi, which means that what you perceive as "focus" in your posts could very well be Stagnation or phlegm misting the mind. Admittedly, I commend you for your re-evaluation and editing of the tone of your posts, it allows everyone to be more open. As a reminder, the "preview post" button is located directly beside "submit reply."

t_niehoff

04-24-2009, 11:25 AM

sure , according to you you are 10000% right.

But the fact is you have no clue what is SLT ; under the criterion of the Chinese WCK ancestors' teaching.

Hendrik, you are so confused, and you don't even know it. You are lost in your fantasy and imagination. The SNT/SLT form/set can only give you the general movements and shapes -- the outward appearance -- of the WCK tools. It is like we take bike riding movement and practiced them in the air. Only by using those tools in application, i.e., fighting, can we learn and develop how to correctly perform those actions and how they fit together seamlessly, etc. In other words, you can only learn to ride the bike by actually riding the bike.

No matter how brilliant and skilled our ancient chinese ancestors were, they couldn't put together a bike riding form (SLT) that would teach you to ride the bike or even how to properly perform those bike-riding movements in the bike riding form. You need to ride the bike to do that, to get the proper feeling, to use the actual musculature, etc. Now, once you are riding the bike and have learned how to really perform those bike-riding actions, you can go back and put them into your form (if you want to). But then you can't teach anyone else how to really do that form as you do it -- you can only ever teach the outward movement and shapes. Only by riding can a person "fill in" the real mechanics, feelings, etc. for themselves.

In other words, the fight teaches you the form, the form doesn't teach you to fight.

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 11:55 AM

Hendrik, you are so confused, and you don't even know it. You are lost in your fantasy and imagination.

Sure, according to you you are 10000% right, sweet dream.

Could you please open another thread so that others can discuss SLT here?

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 12:19 PM

Hendrix you are not my Sifu correct...

Good.

But The purpose of this thread is Applications of Sil Lim Tao?

As in my previous posts , I have shared what I feel to share.

AS for Tai Chi and Chi Kung I study it a little.

Good, that is the reason you need to ask your sifu, your sifu know will know you better then others.

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 12:33 PM

Dear Mr. Hypocrite,

I hope this letter finds you well. I would like to bring to your attention the vast discrepancy vis-a-vis the persistent requests you make on this forum regarding the sharing of information, and the attitude you take when others ask you to share.

I would also like, in simple terms, to bring to your attention the inequalities concerning your posts on Qi, Yi, and Shen, compared to the behaviours you exhibit as a poster on this forum.

More than once, your response to people who actually do share as you requested has frequently been rude, conceited, egotistical and dismissive.

Granted, you gradually, through edits, change the tone and content of your posts to be less so, however this knee-jerk, responsive habitual behaviour seems to reflect, in part, an unsettled Yi, which means that what you perceive as "focus" in your posts could very well be Stagnation or phlegm misting the mind.

Admittedly, I commend you for your re-evaluation and editing of the tone of your posts, it allows everyone to be more open. As a reminder, the "preview post" button is located directly beside "submit reply."

Perhaps, you are right.

Perhaps what you 'see' is just the rigid judgemental mind set of yours which expect others to have your approval , because you want everything to run or happen under your Law and according to you, your way.

Well, if that is the case, only you can drop that mind set of yours No one can do it for you.

But either case, these got nothing to do with this thread ---- SLT Aapplications

If you dont like my following post as you quote, dont read ignore them. It is not for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik

But the fact is you have no clue what is SLT ; under the criterion of the Chinese WCK ancestors' teaching.

Originally Posted by Hendrik
That is your assumption.

Why do I want to do that?

I am not your sifu right? so ask your sifu.

t_niehoff

04-24-2009, 01:13 PM

Sure, according to you you are 10000% right, sweet dream.

Could you please open another thread so that others can discuss SLT here?

Hendrik, could you please stop talking about something you really know nothing about -- SLT?

You are the dreamer, Hendrik. Your discussions of SLT are your empty speculations about SLT. You are doing your bike-riding movements in the air (SLT), doing them as you believe they should be done based on your fantasy-projections, thinking you have the secret knowledge of the ancients, but that's all nonsense since you can't ride a bike! It's all in your head, in your imagination.

The ONLY people who can intelligently discuss SLT are people who are fighting with WCK. They are the only people who can talk from experience (genuine evidence) and not speculation, imagination, and fantasy.

punchdrunk

04-24-2009, 01:31 PM

But Hendrik has the secret kuen kuit that has been lost to all others, thus he plainly has great knowledge and is merely showing bricks to laugh at our jade!!:eek:
The answer to his questions is he should ask his sifu. Or maybe he should find out for himself?;)

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 01:41 PM

Hendrik, could you please stop talking about something you really know nothing about -- SLT?

You are the dreamer, Hendrik. Your discussions of SLT are your empty speculations about SLT. You are doing your bike-riding movements in the air (SLT), doing them as you believe they should be done based on your fantasy-projections, thinking you have the secret knowledge of the ancients, but that's all nonsense since you can't ride a bike! It's all in your head, in your imagination.

The ONLY people who can intelligently discuss SLT are people who are fighting with WCK. They are the only people who can talk from experience (genuine evidence) and not speculation, imagination, and fantasy.

You sure will use all your debate/argument tactics to win, isnt it.

In fact, you dont have a clue on what the SLT training is about.

t_niehoff

04-24-2009, 02:04 PM

You sure will use all your debate/argument tactics to win, isnt it.

In fact, you dont have a clue on what the SLT training is about.

The only "debate/argument tactics" I'm using is to point out common sense. But common sense can defeat fantasy everytime.

I have explained what "SLT training" is about. As I indicated, any form/set (in martial arts or in any other athletic activity) can only show the outer appearance of an action/movement (tool) -- a form can't show you or get you to feel how to really do that action or use that tool in the activity itself. And that's because you are not getting and can't get the "proper" feedback doing a solo exercise. Your fighting tools need to be able to deal with fighting intensity, fighting pressures, etc. You're not getting those in forms or by doing forms. The activity itself -- fighting -- is what "fills in" the missing elements. You don't understand this because you've never done it.

Robert's structure tests, for example, are a way to get rank beginners to feel some (nonfighting) pressure on their horse (YJKYM, for example) and to use that to make adjustments to their horse so that they can receive pressure. Without the pressure, you couldn't make those adjustments. But this is for beginners. That's not fighting pressures. With fighting, you make further adjustments to your horse.

The SLT/SNT (the forms) can teach someone the outer skin of WCK, it can teach you the general movements/actions. It's like doing bike-riding movements without a bike and in the air. To make those movements "work", you need to ride the bike. You know when you have it "right" when you can make the movements work to ride the bike. You can't tell any other way. Doing them in the air or on a stationary bike (an unrealistic exercise) doesn't mean anything.

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 03:14 PM

Robert's structure tests, for example, are a way to get rank beginners to feel some (nonfighting) pressure on their horse (YJKYM, for example) and to use that to make adjustments to their horse so that they can receive pressure. Without the pressure, you couldn't make those adjustments. But this is for beginners. That's not fighting pressures. With fighting, you make further adjustments to your horse.

The SLT/SNT (the forms) can teach someone the outer skin of WCK, it can teach you the general movements/actions. It's like doing bike-riding movements without a bike and in the air. To make those movements "work", you need to ride the bike. You know when you have it "right" when you can make the movements work to ride the bike. You can't tell any other way. Doing them in the air or on a stationary bike (an unrealistic exercise) doesn't mean anything.

Thank you for your reply based on your view.

The questions are beginer level stuffs.

and let's hear others' sharing on the same level.

Until the beginer level stuffs get sorted out how effective is to go into deep stuffs?

speaking based on this level of skill,
and what is the likely one can response to the situation without even have experience the feeling of pressure in static form? That is a good question.

Xiao3 Meng4

04-24-2009, 03:55 PM

Regarding SLT applications, my understanding is:

1st section: Jing
Sucker punch (best defense is a good offense)
maintaining structural initiative (rooting, facing, resolving pressures, aligning, compartmentalizing, etc.)
Asking Hand/Guarding Hand
Bridging methods/Deflections (Tan Sau, Pak Sau, Fook sau, left vs right, left vs left, etc.)
Inch Power
Summary: Learning how to hit and run, and how to deflect/disrupt/absorb and run.

2nd section: Qi
Bridged energies (Both grabbed and ungrabbed, grabbing or striking, one bridge or 2 bridges)
Explore from wrist bridges, elbow bridges, shoulder bridges, and all variations, left and right
Summary: learning how to issue disruptive force across different bridges/standup grappling situations (maybe the clinch too, but I haven't explored that yet.)

3rd section: Shen
Implementing sections 1 and 2 in a cohesive, goal oriented manner (deflecting and disrupting multiple attacks in multiple gates; feinting; effective situation-specific responses to common attacks; simultaneous attack and defense)
Summary: git 'er done and run!

CK is the same, and BJ is the same. The emphasis of a whole form relates to what is emphasized in its numerically related section. So SLT is, as a whole, about exploring section 1 (survive); CK is, as a whole, about section 2 (plus kicks.) BJ is, as a whole, about section 3 (intent/desire.)

Anyway, that's how I approach the applications of Wing Chun.

Genetic

04-24-2009, 04:26 PM

Hendrik, you are so confused, and you don't even know it. You are lost in your fantasy and imagination. The SNT/SLT form/set can only give you the general movements and shapes -- the outward appearance -- of the WCK tools. It is like we take bike riding movement and practiced them in the air. Only by using those tools in application, i.e., fighting, can we learn and develop how to correctly perform those actions and how they fit together seamlessly, etc. In other words, you can only learn to ride the bike by actually riding the bike.

No matter how brilliant and skilled our ancient chinese ancestors were, they couldn't put together a bike riding form (SLT) that would teach you to ride the bike or even how to properly perform those bike-riding movements in the bike riding form. You need to ride the bike to do that, to get the proper feeling, to use the actual musculature, etc. Now, once you are riding the bike and have learned how to really perform those bike-riding actions, you can go back and put them into your form (if you want to). But then you can't teach anyone else how to really do that form as you do it -- you can only ever teach the outward movement and shapes. Only by riding can a person "fill in" the real mechanics, feelings, etc. for themselves.

In other words, the fight teaches you the form, the form doesn't teach you to fight.

I really like this post. It makes a lot of sense.

t_niehoff

04-24-2009, 07:14 PM

Thank you for your reply based on your view.

The questions are beginer level stuffs.

and let's hear others' sharing on the same level.

Until the beginer level stuffs get sorted out how effective is to go into deep stuffs?

speaking based on this level of skill,
and what is the likely one can response to the situation without even have experience the feeling of pressure in static form? That is a good question.

Hendrik, you talk only nonsense. Your questions are nonsense, your views are nonsense. Your questions aren't about "beginner level stuffs", they are nonsense.

Hendrik

04-24-2009, 08:51 PM

Phil Redmond

04-25-2009, 07:54 AM

I've got to make some form apps clips today so that we can get back on topic . . . lol

LoneTiger108

04-26-2009, 07:35 AM

The ONLY people who can intelligently discuss SLT are people who are fighting with WCK. They are the only people who can talk from experience (genuine evidence) and not speculation, imagination, and fantasy.

One of the reasons I haven't posted in a while! :D

I've liked reading the posts of everyone here, but c'mon peeps, what are you all discussing?? Why all the negative comments about each other? AGAIN!

SLT Applications?

Who here even knows the theory of SLT in the first place to attempt to 'test' it in reality (real fighting T, not in a cage) AND if you have A theory, as Hendrik DOES, why is it it's taken as gospel or the ONLY theory available?

Kuent Kuit is just as it states. Ideas to grasp a hold of, all be it just some poetic ramblings and hints and tips from past ancestors they're still helpful. That's not fantasy Terence, it's the results of research, study and practise.

WHAT IS THE ACTUAL THEORY OF SLT?

To shed some light on my ramblings, the way I learnt SLT was a long and arduous process. Copying shapes before being told what they were called. Dismantling the simple names to see the underlying theories in each set. And training each set individually in many areas:- empty hand, interaction, with equipment, weaponry and on the wooden man.

All this madness before even learning 'how to read' Chinese.

From experience (and FWIW!) without further training & study SLT is a useless collection of 'pictures'. And to actually try to 'fight' with it before solid foundation is just ridiculous. Part of that foundation IMHHO is 'study'. SLT, CK & BJ all have their supporting foundation literature (theory) IN CHINESE. Without this supporting knowledge you can only ever speculate. The Kuen Kuit from Yik Kam is NOT the only evidence I have seen that supports what I say here.

Problem is, everybody has variations in their foundations, so ultimately SLT is different from person to person depending on experience. My question is, do you really think that is the way it was meant to be?

Why practice in threes sets when there are distinctly more? (count how many times you withdraw the fists to your side) Why do we not move the feet, when they're needed to actually fight? Why do we only practise in Jinsun, yjkym?

Most of these answers are within the kuen kuit. BUT where are the instructions on 'how to use' SLT?

Where's the guidelines to each sets application?

Regarding SLT applications, my understanding is:

1st section: Jing
Sucker punch (best defense is a good offense)
maintaining structural initiative (rooting, facing, resolving pressures, aligning, compartmentalizing, etc.)
Asking Hand/Guarding Hand
Bridging methods/Deflections (Tan Sau, Pak Sau, Fook sau, left vs right, left vs left, etc.)
Inch Power
Summary: Learning how to hit and run, and how to deflect/disrupt/absorb and run.

2nd section: Qi
Bridged energies (Both grabbed and ungrabbed, grabbing or striking, one bridge or 2 bridges)
Explore from wrist bridges, elbow bridges, shoulder bridges, and all variations, left and right
Summary: learning how to issue disruptive force across different bridges/standup grappling situations (maybe the clinch too, but I haven't explored that yet.)

3rd section: Shen
Implementing sections 1 and 2 in a cohesive, goal oriented manner (deflecting and disrupting multiple attacks in multiple gates; feinting; effective situation-specific responses to common attacks; simultaneous attack and defense)
Summary: git 'er done and run!

CK is the same, and BJ is the same. The emphasis of a whole form relates to what is emphasized in its numerically related section. So SLT is, as a whole, about exploring section 1 (survive); CK is, as a whole, about section 2 (plus kicks.) BJ is, as a whole, about section 3 (intent/desire.)

Anyway, that's how I approach the applications of Wing Chun.

An excellent breakdown of the commonly learnt Ip Family SLT. But three sections?? Does everybody here practice in this way?? With three sections?? I can understand how the above relates to the three forms, but to SLT alone?

Another reason why I find it hard to post here these days, as there seems to be more differences than similarities IMO. :(