Lik? Jin? what are these stuffs? [Archive]

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Hendrik

03-26-2009, 01:18 PM

I started this thread yesterday but some how it was missing this morning.

So here I start again.

Some says, to fajing one needs

coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil;

Is that true? is that adequate to tell the story or is it too general to a point that it doesnt tell much?

What is Lik? what is Jin?

PS. Ed, I saw your reply last night but the whole thread is gone this morning.
To reply to your post, I start this thread intending to examine into what the heck are these stuffs and how the general public think; instead of just words and interpretation or guess.

IMHO, these stuffs need to be examine very closely, because we might not do SLT / WCK at all with the present day general view.

if we dont know what they are we dont know how to get it. IMHO.

Edmund

03-26-2009, 04:10 PM

PS. Ed, I saw your reply last night but the whole thread is gone this morning.
To reply to your post, I start this thread intending to examine into what the heck are these stuffs and how the general public think; instead of just words and interpretation or guess.

No offense but you are never clear yourself about how *you* think. You obfuscate the issue more than any other poster.

So how can you be complaining about other definitions of Jin not being good enough and ask for more details?

People gave their definitions and I may not agree fully with them but they were a LOT more clear than you ever were - even if they weren't adequate for you.

You had an answer:
"coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil"

If you think it's not enough, you should offer a better one.

Hendrik

03-26-2009, 06:24 PM

No offense but you are never clear yourself about how *you* think. You obfuscate the issue more than any other poster.

So how can you be complaining about other definitions of Jin not being good enough and ask for more details?

People gave their definitions and I may not agree fully with them but they were a LOT more clear than you ever were - even if they weren't adequate for you.

You had an answer:
"coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil"

If you think it's not enough, you should offer a better one.

No offense,

May be you are correct.

However, may be you dont comprehend my posts because I communicate in a different way?

as for this post, My intend on this thread is clearly posts.

As for Jin and Lik, I would love to see everyone's view because there is lots of ways to describe the same thing and I am not neccesary to have a better one.

So, if you like to discuss, lets not start with accusation on others but let's focus on sharing what is Lik and Jin.

No offense.

Best Regards

Genetic

03-26-2009, 06:31 PM

What is Lik? what is Jin?

...

if we dont know what they are we dont know how to get it. IMHO.

I dont know what lik is, or what jin is, but then my daughter doenst know what walking is, consciousness it, talking it etc etc but she seems to get it fine.

She doenst seem to need to study it, to learn defenitions, to quote wise sayings, or any of the above to walk, talk or posess consciousness.

Since when do you have to understand something to poseess it?

Since never.

But it is possible that people that dont possess something will intelectualise and fantasize about how they could posess it...

Hendrik

03-26-2009, 06:41 PM

I dont know what lik is, or what jin is, but then my daughter doenst know what walking is, consciousness it, talking it etc etc but she seems to get it fine.

She doenst seem to need to study it, to learn defenitions, to quote wise sayings, or any of the above to walk, talk or posess consciousness.

Since when do you have to understand something to poseess it?

Since never.

But it is possible that people that dont possess something will intelectualise and fantasize about how they could posess it...

You have a great point, however, that is the point I hear over and over again in the East and the West ---- keep doing it and somedays WAH LA one will have it.

as an exmaple, consciousness, one can study different kinds of state with the brain wave monitor.
and
those who has real training in meditaion can enter into different conscious state or call for different Brain wave at will.

Thus, it is nothing to do with intelectualize. it is todo with knowing what one intent to get/do/arive and have a process to do it. It certainly not that Keep Doing it and someday's WALLA...

sure there are lots of meditators think they know but can one do it under the brain wave monitor to evoke a specific state?

Another example is

WCK's uniqueness is fast accelearte Jin.
as for wrestle's uniqueness is take down....etc.

Imagine, when the WCner who knows nothing about thier uniqueness trying to compete with a wrestle who is well train in thier uniqueness, what is the outcome need not be said.

Just some thoughts.

Genetic

03-26-2009, 06:49 PM

You have a great point, however, that is the point I hear over and over again in the East and the West ---- keep doing it and somedays WAH LA one will have it.

as an exmaple, consciousness, one can study different kinds of state with the brain wave monitor.
and
those who has real training in meditaion can enter into different conscious state or call for different Brain wave at will.

Thus, it is nothing to do with intelectualize. it is todo with knowing what one intent to get/do/arive and have a process to do it. It certainly not that Keep Doing it and someday's WALLA...

sure there are lots of meditators think they know but can one do it under the brain wave monitor to evoke a specific state?

Another example is

WCK's uniqueness is fast accelearte Jin.
as for wrestle's uniqueness is take down....etc.

Imagine, when the WCner who knows nothing about thier uniqueness trying to compete with a wrestle who is well train in thier uniqueness, what is the outcome need not be said.

Just some thoughts.

I still have no idea what jin or lik are, but do you think that means that I dont know how to apply energy despite my practice?

Edmund

03-26-2009, 07:38 PM

No offense,

May be you are correct.

However, may be you dont comprehend my posts because I communicate in a different way?

Probably! But I don't think you should complain about other people definitions when you can't communicate yours.

All I can glean from your definitions is you have to stand there, close your eyes and sing 80's music to Asian p0rn stars. Forgive me if I didn't catch all the details.

As for Jin and Lik, I would love to see everyone's view because there is lots of ways to describe the same thing and I am not neccesary to have a better one.

"coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil"

Hendrik

03-26-2009, 09:16 PM

I still have no idea what jin or lik are, but do you think that means that I dont know how to apply energy despite my practice?

You might know how to apply energy despite of your practice.
However,
Evidentally, the Classical TCMA has different types of Jin and Lik.
They are very specific.

So the issues are is what we do accord with what the style mean to do?

Hendrik

03-26-2009, 09:24 PM

Probably! But I don't think you should complain about other people definitions when you can't communicate yours.

All I can glean from your definitions is you have to stand there, close your eyes and sing 80's music to Asian p0rn stars. Forgive me if I didn't catch all the details. ------

Thanks for your good opinion and sharing what is reside in your mind.

"coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil" -----

Great.

Yoshiyahu

03-28-2009, 12:06 PM

Hendrik

03-28-2009, 12:15 PM

In WC I have not studied or read many things concerning the different types of Lik and Jin...

Can you please share the titles the various types of Lik and Jin Hedrick

In WC there are 8 types of Ging or Geng!

Geng or ging = energy
1. bau ja geng = explode power
2. chi geng = sticking power
3. keng geng = listening power
4. juun geng = drilling power
5. jek jip geng = direct power / gan jip geng = indirect power
6. yaan geng or daai geng = guiding power

Jin and Lik ..................

IMHO,

1, The so called 8 types of Gings above is a made up of modern days. and some or the translation is in correct and dont make much sense.

2, these above type of definition and "coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil " are very worry some. Because IMHO it is misleading.

3, everyone almost can qoute the above and make a big elaboration /speculation on these, however, these stuffs doesnt contribute much certainty. Thus, it open up to different intepretation where every one think they are right and argue with ego.... and non conclusive.

4, you and some here might question why am I trash these stuffs including the ROOT and Internal stuffs which you posts. Well, the answer is simply that these are a dead trap like a mirage in the desert. because they were distorted in a big time.

it is like the old pop song....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSTlLYMo02w&feature=related

Thus, I have heard, in the ancient time,

To learn about Lik and Jin and Qi clearly are not difficult at all from the sifu knows what these are.

the name of the game is to perfect them so that they become a part of one's life and become more and more effortless when one evoke them. That is the depth of Kung Fu.

and due to these 24/7/365 practice the unique of WCK will surface.

That is WCK instead of today's learning Tan Bong Fook... some ch isau and limit one to have to fight in a certain way is WCK.

I could be wrong but that is what I have heard.

Do I know the answers NOPE.
So, Those who read this thread and knows the answer please share.

Best Regards

Hardwork108

03-28-2009, 04:41 PM

IMHO,

1, The so called 8 types of Gings above is a made up of modern days. and some or the translation is in correct and dont make much sense.

2, these above type of definition and "coordinated function of awareness, breath, ground reaction force (rooting), muscle contraction and tendinous recoil " are very worry some. Because IMHO it is misleading.

3, everyone almost can qoute the above and make a big elaboration /speculation on these, however, these stuffs doesnt contribute much certainty. Thus, it open up to different intepretation where every one think they are right and argue with ego.... and non conclusive.

4, you and some here might question why am I trash these stuffs including the ROOT and Internal stuffs which you posts. Well, the answer is simply that these are a dead trap like a mirage in the desert. because they were distorted in a big time.

it is like the old pop song....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSTlLYMo02w&feature=related

Thus, I have heard, in the ancient time,

To learn about Lik and Jin and Qi clearly are not difficult at all from the sifu knows what these are.

the name of the game is to perfect them so that they become a part of one's life and become more and more effortless when one evoke them. That is the depth of Kung Fu.

and due to these 24/7/365 practice the unique of WCK will surface.

That is WCK instead of today's learning Tan Bong Fook... some ch isau and limit one to have to fight in a certain way is WCK.

Very true.

I could be wrong but that is what I have heard.
No you are not wrong.:)

Do I know the answers NOPE.

You know more than most.

So, Those who read this thread and knows the answer please share.

I have a feeling that we will have to wait for them for a long time to give the answer in this forum.;)

Meanwhile, I am happy reading your posts that point the finger in the right direction.

Hendrik

03-28-2009, 05:40 PM

I have a feeling that we will have to wait for them for a long time to give the answer in this forum.;)

When spring time cant see sun ...

You will suprise lots share this song....

" If Im Ever Going To Get Back"

The rain is knocking at my door,
And I cant see the sun no more,
Im a have to fight my way If I'm ever going to get back get back g-get back.
This is something you cant ignore,
Life is turning into war,
Im a have to fight my way If I'm ever going to get back (hey)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWclpQLQUFY

or chinese version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Von21YBRuCw

I heard a tale in the past....

The strength of water flow which support the flow is lik.
The flow type is Jin.

The strenght can be generated via pump, water fall....
the Flow type can be forward thrust, downward, upward, spiral.....

Without the strength there is no flow, without the flow the strength are not use effectively.

So, in SLT, what kind of strength one generate? how many flow type one creates?
and what kind of strength generation is more suitable to what flow type?

Nope, it is not just that Tan Bong Fook.
it is something that is not visible but known make it WCK.... Different Strenght generation and that different flow types.

For powerlifting,

How many ways are there in doing a squat?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_(exercise)

And what is the different between Squat and deadlift?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadlift

Different Lik different Jin.

what make one thinks SLT Lik/Jin training is any different?
What make one thinks Just do it naturally without a clear objective will do it right?

Who says just standing there clamp the knees and doing YJKYM with fixing stance and Root deep ?

Root? Fixed?
No Fixed Root, but alive and adaptive.

So, where does Qi comes into the picture? That I let those advance people to continou the story....

Yoshiyahu

03-30-2009, 07:12 PM

So, where does Qi comes into the picture? That I let those advance people to continou the story....

My Question is

What is Lik?

What is Ren?

What is Jin?

What is Chi?

You said:

The strength of water flow which support the flow is lik.
The flow type is Jin.

The strenght can be generated via pump, water fall....
the Flow type can be forward thrust, downward, upward, spiral.....

Without the strength there is no flow, without the flow the strength are not use effectively.

My Question is this old chinese tale from a Wing Chun sifu? Is this Wing Chun you are qouting from?

Hendrik said:

To learn about Lik and Jin and Qi clearly are not difficult at all from the sifu knows what these are.

Has your Sifu shared this with you Hendrik? If so how does one perfect Lik,Jin and Qi so that they become a part of one's life and become more and more effortless when one evoke them?

Please share?

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 11:21 AM

My Question is this old chinese tale from a Wing Chun sifu? Is this Wing Chun you are qouting from?

What is more important? whether the description is a fact or where the description is from?

Dale Dugas

03-31-2009, 11:30 AM

Yoshiyahu,

why not train more and post less?

you would answer many of your own questions

Hardwork108

03-31-2009, 11:33 AM

Yoshiyahu,

why not train more and post less?

you would answer many of your own questions

Christ!

Dale Dugas, you must be psychic as I was just about to give the same advice to you!:eek:

Yoshiyahu

03-31-2009, 01:30 PM

What is more important? whether the description is a fact or where the description is from?

Well for my point the most important would be the origin. If your desciption is not
WC why are you mixing non-WC sayings in. Its not true WC as you always say!

Question still not answer by Hendrik who always complains about his questions going unanswered!

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 02:24 PM

Well for my point the most important would be the origin. If your desciption is not
WC why are you mixing non-WC sayings in. Its not true WC as you always say! -----

Thanks for sharing your view. and what is origin WCK?

Yoshiyahu

03-31-2009, 06:53 PM

My Question is

What is Lik?

What is Ren?

What is Jin?

What is Chi?

You said:

My Question is this old chinese tale from a Wing Chun sifu? Is this Wing Chun you are qouting from?

Hendrik said:

Has your Sifu shared this with you Hendrik? If so how does one perfect Lik,Jin and Qi so that they become a part of one's life and become more and more effortless when one evoke them?

Please share?

Well for my point the most important would be the origin. If your desciption is not
WC why are you mixing non-WC sayings in. Its not true WC as you always say! -----

Thanks for sharing your view. and what is origin WCK?

Hendrik answer my questions first..then i will share the origin of WCK...

Hendrik

03-31-2009, 07:07 PM

Hendrik answer my questions first..then i will share the origin of WCK...

If you know the origin of WCK you will certainly not asking the questions you ask me.

Yoshiyahu

04-01-2009, 09:25 AM

I will take that as you dont know as much as you think you know.

Thanks for you candor!

Hendrik

04-01-2009, 12:35 PM

I will take that as you dont know as much as you think you know.

Thanks for you candor!

Sure, you are right. Beside argue and want to be right what else do you know ?

Yoshiyahu

04-06-2009, 06:11 PM

Sure, you are right. Beside argue and want to be right what else do you know ?

Lik means Force

Jin means Force

Whats the difference between the two???

From my teachings!!!

Lik is Muscular Force mostly use by Arm strength!

Jin is more of body force utilize or emitted by the waist or hips!

Ging or Jing is known as sperm or life essence. When you jiggle or shake the hips it is said one can dispersed or transmit the sperm into energy. Thus transforming it into chi. An then emitting it as force. I have read and heard this in the past. Not sure how true it is. But thats a theory I have heard of.

You may think Lik and Jin to be different please share your opinion...If you have one please share it simply and briefly for all to read and understand.

Here are some links for you to read hendrik:

http://www.damazen.com/blog/2008/02/09/the-difference-between-using-jing-or-strengthpower-in-wu-shu/

http://www.dragonslist.com/difference_between_using_jing_or_strengthpower_wu_ shu

In Wu Shu, Jing and Strength are two different concepts. If a person know how to attack using their entire bodys power focused into just one part of their body, then we say this person know how to Fa Jing, meaning Use Jing. In a fight most people can only use part of their limbs power; i.e. they punch by moving just their arm against their opponent. In Wu Shu we call this kind of partial power/strength Jruo Li or Dull Strength/Power. Everyone has the ability to use Jruo Li when fighting. It is only through special training that someone learns how to Fa Jing in a fight, making Jing is a unique offspring of Chinese Wu Shu. Most of Fa Jings power is generated in the lower limbs.

There is one saying in Tai Chi Chuan that goes like this; Li Fa Yuu Goon, Ju Jai Yuu Yao, Xing Yuu Sou, or The power from the root/feet, controlled from the waist, used by the hand. This explains how to Fa Jing in Tai Chi Chuan.

Lik or Li is partial force.

Ging or Jing or Geng is whole body force.

When utlizing Jing you also use Lik or Li.

Google:
Gung Lik Kune (Strength Building)

Gung Lik
Kung Lek is a romanization of a chinese definition meaning: "Power Generation" and also meaning "Strong Fundamentals".

It can also be a name of a person and is a name of a Kungfu set. Also known as a "form" or "taolu" and in some circles the Karate terminology is used and it is called a "kata"

the set is called "Kung Lek Kuen" or gongliquan"

Alternate spellings include "Gong Lik" and "gongli" as well as "Kung Lik" ,"Kung li", "Gungli" and "Gung Lik"

Fa Jing
A sudden surge of chi or energy. It is the main means of striking in internal martial arts such as tai chi. The way in which energy is emitted.
Though completly relaxed the Tai Chi master could send his students flying back several feet by using fa jing.

Additional information on Gung Lik in Wing Chun:

http://www.kamonwingchun.com/FeatureChiSaoSeminar.asp

Additonal Information on Fa Jin

http://www.londonwingchun.co.uk/info.html

So in conclusion one may think of the following as:

Fa Jing (exploding energy/penetrating power)

Gung Lik (hard energy/strength Building)

Hendrik

04-06-2009, 08:31 PM

Cooking sand will never become rice.

Lik means Force

Jin means Force

Whats the difference between the two???

From my teachings!!!

Lik is Muscular Force mostly use by Arm strength!

Jin is more of body force utilize or emitted by the waist or hips!

Ging or Jing is known as sperm or life essence. When you jiggle or shake the hips it is said one can dispersed or transmit the sperm into energy. Thus transforming it into chi. An then emitting it as force. I have read and heard this in the past. Not sure how true it is. But thats a theory I have heard of.

You may think Lik and Jin to be different please share your opinion...If you have one please share it simply and briefly for all to read and understand.

Here are some links for you to read hendrik:

http://www.damazen.com/blog/2008/02/09/the-difference-between-using-jing-or-strengthpower-in-wu-shu/

http://www.dragonslist.com/difference_between_using_jing_or_strengthpower_wu_ shu

Lik or Li is partial force.

Ging or Jing or Geng is whole body force.

When utlizing Jing you also use Lik or Li.

Google:
Gung Lik Kune (Strength Building)

Additional information on Gung Lik in Wing Chun:

http://www.kamonwingchun.com/FeatureChiSaoSeminar.asp

Additonal Information on Fa Jin

http://www.londonwingchun.co.uk/info.html

So in conclusion one may think of the following as:

Fa Jing (exploding energy/penetrating power)

Gung Lik (hard energy/strength Building)

Hendrik

04-06-2009, 08:34 PM

Cooking sand will never become rice.

Yoshiyahu

04-07-2009, 06:53 AM

Cooking sand will never become rice.

What does cooking Sand mean?

How can sand something non-edible ever become rice?

Please speak plainly?

Do you disagree with my opinion?

Hendrik

04-07-2009, 11:03 AM

What does cooking Sand mean?

How can sand something non-edible ever become rice?

Please speak plainly?

Do you disagree with my opinion?

It is as plain as , cooking sand can never become rice.

for those who dont know what is Li and Jin, go baisi and learn so that one could avoid cooking sand and expecting rice.

Yoshiyahu

04-07-2009, 11:23 AM

It is as plain as , cooking sand can never become rice.

for those who dont know what is Li and Jin, go baisi and learn so that one could avoid cooking sand and expecting rice.

What is the answer Hendrik?

Please share...

Li is muscular strength....

Jin is power directed by entire body...

what more needs to be said?

Arm Strenght is merely Lik

Utlizing Arm strenght supported by your structure, Stance and Waist power is Jin!

Hendrik

04-07-2009, 11:29 AM

What is the answer Hendrik?

Please share...

Li is muscular strength....

Jin is power directed by entire body...

what more needs to be said?

Arm Strenght is merely Lik

Utlizing Arm strenght supported by your structure, Stance and Waist power is Jin!

1, the answer is in my previous post. those who knows know. and if you cant make sense out of my post. you seriously needs a sifu who could lead you in this subject.

2, keeping saying the matra of Jin is this and Lik is that or keep speculate Jin is this and Lik is that is not going to get your any where but blind you and delude you from what is it.

Yoshiyahu

04-07-2009, 06:07 PM

I have stated my opinion on what Lik and Jin is...

Which the purpose of this thread which you created is?

Is it not called

Lik? Jin? what are these stuffs!

I don't mean to toot my own horn. But meaning and definitions giving as wrong as they may be are very clear and concise and everyone knows what I am saying. Others besides me have criticize your writing style. You lack structure and organization in your writing. I have repeated my definition which you call my mantra...

If you do not wish to summarize your previous post an explain the meaning more clearly instead of saying Basai all day. Then atleast provide a link to your post which actually details the true definition to Lik and Jin...Provide us with the actual number of your Post?

Asked others if they think your post are clear,concised,well organized and present an actual complete thought.

I personally see most of your post as complete jumbled jargon. Except for when your asking a question!

1, the answer is in my previous post. those who knows know. and if you cant make sense out of my post. you seriously needs a sifu who could lead you in this subject.

2, keeping saying the matra of Jin is this and Lik is that or keep speculate Jin is this and Lik is that is not going to get your any where but blind you and delude you from what is it.

Edmund

04-07-2009, 07:22 PM

I don't mean to toot my own horn. But meaning and definitions giving as wrong as they may be are very clear and concise and everyone knows what I am saying. Others besides me have criticize your writing style. You lack structure and organization in your writing. I have repeated my definition which you call my mantra...

If you do not wish to summarize your previous post an explain the meaning more clearly instead of saying Basai all day. Then atleast provide a link to your post which actually details the true definition to Lik and Jin...Provide us with the actual number of your Post?

Well I think I was the first one to criticize Hendrik and his bad attempts at philosophical writing but even I understand what he's saying.

He said it a long time ago:
"The strength of water flow which support the flow is lik.
The flow type is Jin. "

Actually IMO it's what I said in my post that did not survive the system crash. The difference being I didn't throw in a stupid song and read a half baked fortune cookie. The crash gave Hendrik the chance to post the same **** thing in Chinglish instead of English. Ah well.

Anyway, you asked Hendrik for his definition but he gave it already!

You just keep posting other definitions that agree with you and then say "please share" over and over for some reason.

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 08:48 AM

isnt it interesting that different people sees different things from the same post?

Perhaps, one sees what one likes or hate to see, instead of what is there?

Yoshiyahu

04-08-2009, 09:27 AM

"The strength of water flow which support the flow is lik.
The flow type is Jin. "

So In short this is hendriks answer...Okay got you!

What was your answer?

As for Hendrik what is flow?

What is strength of Water?

Well I think I was the first one to criticize Hendrik and his bad attempts at philosophical writing but even I understand what he's saying.

He said it a long time ago:
"The strength of water flow which support the flow is lik.
The flow type is Jin. "

Actually IMO it's what I said in my post that did not survive the system crash. The difference being I didn't throw in a stupid song and read a half baked fortune cookie. The crash gave Hendrik the chance to post the same **** thing in Chinglish instead of English. Ah well.

Anyway, you asked Hendrik for his definition but he gave it already!

You just keep posting other definitions that agree with you and then say "please share" over and over for some reason.

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 10:42 AM

"

As for Hendrik what is flow?

What is strength of Water?

everything is in the previous post, read it again and again until you see it.

Yoshiyahu

04-08-2009, 01:14 PM

everything is in the previous post, read it again and again until you see it.

Please by all means tell me which post?

anerlich

04-08-2009, 02:57 PM

I don't mean to toot my own horn.

You have nothing to toot your horn about.

Edmund

04-08-2009, 03:57 PM

"The strength of water flow which support the flow is lik.
The flow type is Jin. "

So In short this is hendriks answer...Okay got you!

What was your answer?

Like I said, it was pretty much the same. I can't remember the exact wording and I don't really want to split hairs over it. It was something like:
Lik is your strength. You use it to do everything. There's no negative connotation in the word. Ging (Jin) is any physical skill depending on the context. It's not always referring to striking or whatever. There's even Listening Ging and Empty Ging (chi blast).

The point being you are making Ging out to be good and lik to be bad. That would be wrong usage and definitions of the words.

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 04:44 PM

Ging (Jin) is any physical skill depending on the context.

Ging (Jin) is any physical skill ?

Edmund

04-08-2009, 05:19 PM

Ging (Jin) is any physical skill ?

depending on the context.

Perhaps one sees what one likes or hate to see, instead of what is there?

Thanks for your view.

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 05:21 PM

depending on the context.

ok. for example....

Edmund

04-08-2009, 06:18 PM

ok. for example....

I gave one already.

Listening Ging - sensing your opponent's movement through touch.

Yoshiyahu

04-08-2009, 06:43 PM

That is infact one of eight Ging/Jings....Great info...Thanks Edmud for a clear and concise answer!

I gave one already.

Listening Ging - sensing your opponent's movement through touch.

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 08:02 PM

I gave one already.

Listening Ging - sensing your opponent's movement through touch.

movement is not Jin.

Hendrik

04-08-2009, 08:24 PM

Please by all means tell me which post?

read the post in the begining of this thread. and the one under the root thread, all of these stuffs are inter-related.

Edmund

04-08-2009, 08:37 PM

movement is not Jin.

Thanks for your view!
Not sure what you're saying (I didn't say movement is Jin) but thanks!

Hendrik

04-09-2009, 11:39 AM

That is infact one of eight Ging/Jings....Great info...Thanks Edmud for a clear and concise answer!

Originally Posted by Edmund View Post
I gave one already.

Listening Ging - sensing your opponent's movement through touch.

"Listern to Ging/jin " is not a type of Ging/jin. it is about "listen"

Sensing your opponents movement through through touch is not Listen to jin.

punchdrunk

04-09-2009, 03:34 PM

have you answered your question yet? LIK? JIN? What are these stuffs? Do you know the answer? if so why do you ask the question?

Hendrik

04-09-2009, 05:51 PM

have you answered your question yet? LIK? JIN? What are these stuffs? Do you know the answer? if so why do you ask the question?

read the previous posts

Yoshiyahu

04-09-2009, 06:49 PM

have you answered your question yet? LIK? JIN? What are these stuffs? Do you know the answer? if so why do you ask the question?

No he simply likes to ramble on as if he knows something....Great humbleness on Edmund part...I will try to follow his example!

Violent Designs

04-10-2009, 05:58 AM

IMHO

Jin - energy, specifically the transference of energy via whole body, correct biomechanical connection.

Lik - muscular power, liken to root, structural integrity, supporting/balancing muscles.

Combine proper power transference biomechanic (so the technique for a strike), and together with STRONG muscule for root, sink, rise etc . . you have a certain type of fajing.

Maybe I am wrong, so this is just my opinion.

Yoshiyahu

04-10-2009, 09:41 AM

I totally agree...I also said the same thing...get ready hendrik will you that your wrong buddy...

Hendrik what is your opinion on Wing Chun Conditioning side?

http://books.google.com/books?id=S7O9g4-tzFMC&pg=PA115&dq=wing+chun+iron+body

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fi5mafq41SwC&pg=PA84&dq=wing+chun+iron+shirt

Also what about the weapons of Wing Chun?

http://books.google.com/books?id=CtKbGjP1XqUC&pg=PA57&dq=wing+chun+snake+strikes

IMHO

Jin - energy, specifically the transference of energy via whole body, correct biomechanical connection.

Lik - muscular power, liken to root, structural integrity, supporting/balancing muscles.

Combine proper power transference biomechanic (so the technique for a strike), and together with STRONG muscule for root, sink, rise etc . . you have a certain type of fajing.

Maybe I am wrong, so this is just my opinion.

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 11:25 AM

I totally agree...I also said the same thing...get ready hendrik will you that your wrong buddy...

Those are words and it doesnt come with experience but thinking and speculating.

Dont believe me? describe how each of those stuffs you talk about being evoke in real life?

How is it all these GENERALIZED stuffs applied as the following ?

In the ancient there is Term, Chun Jin Chie Li or Inch Jin join power.

How is the above description of "via whole body" Muscular power, liken to root. linking or describe or contribute to the evoke of Inch Jin join power?

in another word, how do all what you says above make "inch Jin join power" alive?

Sure, some are going to complain I am ramble....etc... again.

Hendrik what is your opinion on Wing Chun Conditioning side?

What good is all the Opinions? The bottom line is can you do it?

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 11:38 AM

No he simply likes to ramble on as if he knows something....

Is it I love to ramble or you dont have the basic to comprehend at all?

Violent Designs

04-10-2009, 11:51 AM

I said it is one TYPE of fa jing . .

There are different type of jin, but li would always be li . . . power/strength/integrity.

It is, strength of muscle.

Jin and Li must be together.

With very weak Li . . . and just jin? You cannot have the most powerful fajing (aka power delivery).

Just Li and no Jin? It is brute force, no technical of PROPER, energy direction or power transference so the result is not real "fajing" it is just . . . hit with muscle.

punchdrunk

04-10-2009, 01:07 PM

Those are words and it doesnt come with experience but thinking and speculating.

Dont believe me? describe how each of those stuffs you talk about being evoke in real life?

Is your point that words can't describe it? It must be experienced to have knowledge?

On another note Violent Designs, do you feel the use of terms like LIK and JIN are necessary or that they are helpful in explanations or training? Or would more modern english terminology be more appropriate for westerners in your opinion? Just curious I'm not being judgemental of your answer.

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 01:21 PM

I said it is one TYPE of fa jing . .

ok, acceptable for hard bow Jin.

There are different type of jin, but li would always be li . . .
It is, strength of muscle. power/strength/integrity.

ok

Jin and Li must be together.
With very weak Li . . . and just jin? You cannot have the most powerful fajing (aka power delivery).

In general, Yes.

But when it is IE Taiji Jin this rule changes.

Just Li and no Jin? It is brute force, no technical of PROPER, energy direction or power transference so the result is not real "fajing" it is just . . . hit with muscle.

In general, Yes.

However there is Hun Yuan Li or Lio Mian Li or holisity power or six directional force/power which is Li but not brute force.

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 01:24 PM

Is your point that words can't describe it? It must be experienced to have knowledge?

Those who has experience, when they describe it they will use certain critical phenomenon which only those who knows know. but those who speculate doesnt think those phenomenon making sense.

so, yes, it is possible to check on if one can do it based on description, if the other party honestly describe what is thier experience.

and only those who can clearly describe those critical phenomenon they have a good handling on it.

Those who is posts lots of generalization... , rooting, relax.. biomachenic...whole body..etc. mostly doesnt really have it or not at high level.

punchdrunk

04-10-2009, 01:33 PM

Hendrick you mean personal phenomenon and experiences that are not generally shared with the public? So you are trying to test people to see their experience level?

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 01:59 PM

Hendrick you mean personal phenomenon and experiences that are not generally shared with the public?

Nope,

any one who have been in San Francisco can describe San Francisco in their own way and others still know it is San Francisco.

So you are trying to test people to see their experience level?

Nope,

To communicate and share and learn different site of San Francisco. No one know it all.
and those who not yet gp within San Francisco will have a clear path to not waste time.

but then ofcorse those who loves to argue about San Francisco even they have no clue will never see what is San Francisco is about.

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 03:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjVsRH0dl3g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeodbargP8M&NR=1

root?

Yoshiyahu

04-10-2009, 07:37 PM

I totally agree excellent post...I think Hendrik is looking for something more!

I said it is one TYPE of fa jing . .

There are different type of jin, but li would always be li . . . power/strength/integrity.

It is, strength of muscle.

Jin and Li must be together.

With very weak Li . . . and just jin? You cannot have the most powerful fajing (aka power delivery).

Just Li and no Jin? It is brute force, no technical of PROPER, energy direction or power transference so the result is not real "fajing" it is just . . . hit with muscle.

Yea I liked Violent Designs definition too..Sometimes one has to use chinese words because the english words do completely define it. Where as you can use one chinese word which takes about ten english words to describe it.

Is your point that words can't describe it? It must be experienced to have knowledge?

On another note Violent Designs, do you feel the use of terms like LIK and JIN are necessary or that they are helpful in explanations or training? Or would more modern english terminology be more appropriate for westerners in your opinion? Just curious I'm not being judgemental of your answer.

Nice Video. So with actual fighting applications how is the old guy pushing another old guy off him applicable. What advantage does this ability give him against skilled younger hung gar fighter?

Also before you stated that Wing Chun doesn't practice the root?

What about this old chinese guy in high stance on a scale being pushed?

Near the end of the video starting at 1:41?

His name Segung Tsui Seung Tin and he does Wing Chun!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wDsaMsypk

As for Tai Chi?

Do you believe this is real or fake?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je90EiTe7Po&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGaWhP4lbys&feature=related

What is this all about Hendrik?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh5JVhhePBA&feature=quicklist

In your opinion is it possible to be well rooted on one leg?

Is it possible to develop a root using Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjVsRH0dl3g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeodbargP8M&NR=1

root?

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 10:13 PM

What is the point to look at others? Train and see if one can do what one said.

Violent Designs

04-11-2009, 02:47 AM

Is your point that words can't describe it? It must be experienced to have knowledge?

On another note Violent Designs, do you feel the use of terms like LIK and JIN are necessary or that they are helpful in explanations or training? Or would more modern english terminology be more appropriate for westerners in your opinion? Just curious I'm not being judgemental of your answer.

That is a hard question to answer. Being a native Chinese speaker but having grow up half of my life in the United States as well, and going back and forth, learning both cultures...

I must say that if you want to learn TRADITIONAL Chinese fighting arts, then yes, because you will get the cultural baggage/terminology. But this is just a tradition, cultural aspect. Knowing a term, doesn't mean you can use your skill to fight or hurt someone.

On the aspect of training, it depend on the individual. If you are a Westerner without education on Chinese language and its intricacies then, IMHO words and description such as Jin, Li, Shen, Fajing, etc. can be brutally confusing.

I am still in shock, at how much mistranslation there is from Chinese terminology to English. I talk to a lot of so-called "Internal" players that claim they have a powerful "fajing" or they meet people with strong "fajing."

OK, "fajing" is not an independent thing. But they way they describe it, as if it were an INDEPENDENT skill. You can learn a roundhouse kick but you cannot learn "fajing." It is a culmination of a number of DIFFERENT variables and techniques, when put together, produce maximum power in a certain way.

Going on that note, you have different TYPES of jin right? I don't agree with Hendrik on everything or like him even, but he made excellent description of a variety of Jin in different threads. There is yielding, shocking, whipping, and number of others.

In my honest opinions I think these terminology should not be used as be-all, end-all type of stuffs. Even among Chinese there is disagreement on these topics, and you start including Western perspective, mistranslation and it become very confusing . . .

In China I never even heard the "perspective" that Qi/Chi was "energy." Qi/Chi has always been regards to breathing technique, breathing/air circulation and related training method. Qigong, has been the cultivation of "Qi" and is one aspect of training, the breath work. Exercizing Dantien, etc, etc. Just like lifting weight increase muscle power and mass, Qigong cultivate the Qi.

I think explain in Western terminology. But instead of trying to directly translate, it would be better if you can explain in sentences . . . and scientific/logical explanation of these various things. Because there is no magic, force, energy. Just way to develop the human body into a weapon. That is martial art . . .

Hendrik

04-11-2009, 10:36 AM

If you are a Westerner without education on Chinese language and its intricacies then, IMHO words and description such as Jin, Li, Shen, Fajing, etc. can be brutally confusing.

In my honest opinions I think these terminology should not be used as be-all, end-all type of stuffs.

Even among Chinese there is disagreement on these topics, and you start including Western perspective, mistranslation and it become very confusing . . .

Even if they are Chinese, or even spending decades practicing TCMA or Qigong they might not know or still confuse about exactly what is Jin, Li, Shen, Yee, Fajing....

The root cause of this is "fuzzy" away to face the real issue and they never really get it to work. Those "just do it", "do it 10000 days and then you will know" , "ZEn, use your feeling...." , WCK is simple and direct, those are the poison to screw lots of people up.

From what I have heard, only after one knows and can handle the basic clearly then the sifu will said "just do it.' because that is a different state of cultivation/training. without knowing a thing and go for Zen, Just do it, WCK is simple is screwing things big time.

The ancient says " WCK is simple to learn but difficult to master." That is what the basis of the above comment.

Simple because every details is clearly lay out. Thus, WCK call its core set " the training of the details" or Siu Lin Tao.

Difficult to master because there are multiple ever changing interaction from those simple details combination and evolvution which one needs to masters.

Jin, Li, Shen, Yee, Zhen Qi..... all are needed to describe the different details. otherwise one will never be able to learn the art in full.

So,

what is Li ,

Li is the power which support or sustain a move or an action or a structure in static or dynamic state. And there are different ways to generate Li. See, it doesnt say it has to be WHOLE BODY or ROOT ....etc. it just said, Power Which support or sustain.

There are many ways to generate powers. some is good for sustaining some is good for high accelerating. some uses muscle some uses join some uses body weight......or different combination.

what is Jin,

Jin is the flow of the power vector. Thus, similar to water flow with flow from high to low, higher pressure to lower pressue, Jin needs to have potential or Kinetics offset /displacement to flow.

There are different patern of the jin, such as straight, curve, up ward, down ward, diffuse....

What is Shen,

Shen is the Consciousness.

Shen cannot be thought but it can be know. It cannot be thought because it is the beyond the Thought.

The way to know shen is simple, every one knows it.

IE: after a good sleep, one view a movie, one's consciousness is fresh, attentive and open. That Fresh, attentive, and open is the indication of Shen is full.

late at night, one view the same movie, one's consciousness is dull, cant concentrate, and shut down. That Dull, absent minded, and shutdown is the indication of Shen is dissipate.

or when one is having a cold, one doesnt seem to be in the well being state. that is when the shen is weak. rest make the shen full. worry make the shen weak by draining it with non stop speculation.. fear drain the shen.

So, as in the first Kuen kuit of SLT said, " collect the yee, Union with the Shen." that means quiet the mind and get into the state of the Shen when it is full."

That is the requirement of starting the SLT training.

So, there will be a question, what if one is in a shen dissipate state? well, then one needs to rest or take a sleep until one is in that full state. without that state, the training will not be effective.

So why is the Shen is important?

That is because one needs to use the Yee or intention. without a full shen state, one will not have good handing on Yee.

So what is Yee.

Yee is intention. It is the guiding of the thoughts, Zhen Qi and body movement. ...etc.

Thought is not Yee. Thinking is Not intention. Intention lead to action. It is the chief command of mind and body action

IE: thinking on a movie. Intend to go to a movie.

Thus, when one stand in the YJKYM and doing SLT/SNT, one is keep drilling with these above again and again with different technics and the combination....etc.

The form is just the finger, it is via the "form" finger, one drill the above to "see" the moon.

it is not just do the form. it is what one is doing with the form.

Finally, what is Fa Jin?

Fa is issue.

There is a different between Da Kuen and Fa Jin.

Da kuen means strike out a strike.

Fa Jin means issue/release a force flow.

Da Kuen is similar to using a hammer to strike something.

Fa Jin is similar to release the string of the bow to let the arrow shoot out.

Da or strike out have some hold on force/power in the related physical part using to strike.

Fa or release have no hold on or stagnation in the related physical part totally. for a clean release, the full body has no residue of force at all. clean and clear.

AS one knows from the WCK kuen kuit. it said, Kuen Choong Sum Faat/fa. it doesnt said Kuen choong sum Da. Also, Sum here means the Yee which support by the Full Shen.

By the ancient definition until one is clear and can handle the above within SLT, there is not much Kung Fu earn.

and The kuen Kuit said, "Ten million thread is created from the Details" meaning all the response and movements....etc is raised from the Details above.

Thus, when some one said The Chinese is not Good in teaching physical skill. Well, IMHO, that person is wrong and deadly wrong, the chinese break the components of physical skill down to very details and deal with it in a very scientific way.

The trouble is lots of so called expert is "half bake" or very surface. and even those who knows might not interested to commit to the training. thus, the art lost with time.

What is Zhen Qi?

Zhen Qi is the fuel of the physical body as blood in liquid state formand Zhen Qi in heat/thermal state form. It is not a believe it is something which can be know and handle.

however, the core of the Zhen Qi is not in Qi itself but in Shen.

Why is the Qi medirians needs to be activate?

In a very surface and simplest explation,
That is the preparation for awaring the whole physical body. See, not everyone is born strong or aware of every part of thier physical body. by activate the Qi medirians one knows to the minimum most dominant part of the body is awared.

Finally,

Why is Buddhism or Taoism.,...etc. Involve?

That is because, The key of the Core is how to cultivate the Shen so that it is always stay in Full. and Buddhism or Taoism Technology is needed to handle the Shen.

Zen is not a philosophy. it is a technology which keep the Shen in full. But then that is another deeper story where most 99% of the so called Zenist is trapping in the mind thus dont know Zen.

Why then Love or compassionate is mention? that is because only in the State of Love one can keep the Shen in Full. Dont believe me, think about a loving situation in your life see how full you will be within 10 min. Think about something you hate and angry. See how drain your will be within 10 mins.

See, Spring is not about Anti Qing because Anti drain the Shen, and the body tense up. (how can one fajing or flow when the body continous living in a tense up or hold on state by keep remind oneself Anti Anti?) Spring is Love only love one make the Shen full and strong.

No one said, to be loving kind is not be able to use the art in a superior way.

and only with the Full Shen, one release the strike. as it said, Kuen Choong Sum faat.

Nothing philosophical but everything has a physical consequence if you pay attention to all the details.

That is the mission of Siu Lien Tau --- Pay close attentioin to all the small details.

PRaise the spring.

and every details have its meaning and physical consequence.

Just some thoughts.

punchdrunk

04-11-2009, 02:40 PM

Violent Designs

04-11-2009, 07:01 PM

Thankyou Vioent Designs your response was very clear and understandable, and very much appreciated! It's also refreshing to hear that the chinese people aren't all in aggreement on the issues either, sometimes people make it sound like there is an official answer that every legitemate practitioner knows and accepts! Again thanx!

You are welcome. I enjoy technical discussion, that is the only thing I don't troll or bullsh1t on.

Anyway, do you practice Wing Chun Kuen?

punchdrunk

04-13-2009, 03:41 PM

Yes I practice Wing Chun, I enjoy it immensely and have found it life changing. Hendrick thanx for the last post as well you finally gave some of your answers!!

chusauli

04-13-2009, 04:41 PM

Hendrik's description of the terms above is what is taught in classical Chinese Martial arts.

Heart houses the Shen (Spirit), Spleen houses Yi (thought, intention). These two must work together and one then has clear spirit and intention. These are backed by your Zhi (Will), manifested from your Kidneys. When balanced by the Hun (Soul) of the Liver and Po (Anima) of the Lungs, one can act correctly in this life.

Then one will have correct conduct and be a man of society for the people in accord with the Dao.

Of course, this is mumbo jumbo to those not studied in TCMA.

chusauli

04-13-2009, 04:47 PM

Hendrik

04-13-2009, 04:57 PM

Robert,

Thanks for the critical to physical body link insight.

I urge the old timer to bring back these "mumbo Jumbo" otherwise WCK only create monsters which is have balance on oneself and do no good for others.

How can one fa jing when all the internal organs are screw up? That is suicide.

Hendrik

04-13-2009, 04:58 PM

Yes I practice Wing Chun, I enjoy it immensely and have found it life changing. Hendrick thanx for the last post as well you finally gave some of your answers!!

you are welcome.

Yoshiyahu

04-13-2009, 05:44 PM

you are welcome.

Your last post was alot clearer and straight forward. Thank you for giving answers finally...

Anyway a little long...So I am taking the liberty to highlight the key points

Li is the power which support or sustain a move or an action or a structure in static or dynamic state. And there are different ways to generate Li. See, it doesnt say it has to be WHOLE BODY or ROOT ....etc. it just said, Power Which support or sustain.

There are many ways to generate powers. some is good for sustaining some is good for high accelerating. some uses muscle some uses join some uses body weight......or different combination.

Jin is the flow of the power vector. Thus, similar to water flow with flow from high to low, higher pressure to lower pressue, Jin needs to have potential or Kinetics offset /displacement to flow. There are different patern of the jin, such as straight, curve, up ward, down ward, diffuse....

Shen is the Consciousness.

Shen cannot be thought but it can be know. It cannot be thought because it is the beyond the Thought.

Yee is intention. It is the guiding of the thoughts, Zhen Qi and body movement. ...etc.

Thought is not Yee. Thinking is Not intention. Intention lead to action. It is the chief command of mind and body action

IE: thinking on a movie. Intend to go to a movie.

Finally, what is Fa Jin?

Fa is issue.

There is a different between Da Kuen and Fa Jin.

Da kuen means strike out a strike.

Fa Jin means issue/release a force flow.

Da Kuen is similar to using a hammer to strike something.

Fa Jin is similar to release the string of the bow to let the arrow shoot out.

Da or strike out have some hold on force/power in the related physical part using to strike.

Fa or release have no hold on or stagnation in the related physical part totally. for a clean release, the full body has no residue of force at all. clean and clear.

Zhen Qi is the fuel of the physical body as blood in liquid state formand Zhen Qi in heat/thermal state form. It is not a believe it is something which can be know and handle.

however, the core of the Zhen Qi is not in Qi itself but in Shen.

Why is the Qi medirians needs to be activate?

In a very surface and simplest explation,
That is the preparation for awaring the whole physical body. See, not everyone is born strong or aware of every part of thier physical body. by activate the Qi medirians one knows to the minimum most dominant part of the body is awared.

Hendrik

04-13-2009, 06:02 PM

Your last post was alot clearer and straight forward. Thank you for giving answers finally...

Anyway a little long...So I am taking the liberty to highlight the key points

what is the point of highlight?

That is just mumbo jumbo if one cant do it. in fact, it is misleading , such as

Too many becomes Parrot such as in Chan or Zen. They talk and repeat Zen Zen Zen but have no clue of what is Zen when it is infront thier eyes.

You obviously missed the most important part which I didnt say, but GM Robert of Chu Sai-Lei WCK is kind enough to reveal it.

Heart houses the Shen (Spirit), Spleen houses Yi (thought, intention). These two must work together and one then has clear spirit and intention. These are backed by your Zhi (Will), manifested from your Kidneys. When balanced by the Hun (Soul) of the Liver and Po (Anima) of the Lungs, one can act correctly in this life.

Then one will have correct conduct and be a man of society for the people in accord with the Dao.

Of course, this is mumbo jumbo to those not studied in TCMA.

Yoshiyahu

04-14-2009, 05:29 PM

I wanted to highlight your clear answers...an bypass the mumbo jumbo...But sir can you do it?

If not your answers are merely mumbo jumbo...

what is the point of highlight?

That is just mumbo jumbo if one cant do it. in fact, it is misleading , such as

Too many becomes Parrot such as in Chan or Zen. They talk and repeat Zen Zen Zen but have no clue of what is Zen when it is infront thier eyes.

You obviously missed the most important part which I didnt say, but GM Robert of Chu Sai-Lei WCK is kind enough to reveal it.

Hendrik

04-14-2009, 06:42 PM

I wanted to highlight your clear answers...an bypass the mumbo jumbo...But sir can you do it?

If not your answers are merely mumbo jumbo...

As in Zen, it said, my answer is mine, my mumbo jumbo is also mine.
what good is for you to keep trace on others garbage or jewels?

hahaha

See, you still dont understand, there is no mumbo jumbo or clear answer. It is just some description of what is it.

chusauli

04-15-2009, 12:20 AM

Yoshiyahu,

Worry more about yourself - As Hawkins Cheung always asked me, "Can you do it?!" It was never a question if he had ability or not, what mattered was if I could duplicate it...

In the recent Ip Man movie, the Northerner declares after Ip Man defeats him, "Today Northern Fist loses to Southern Fist!"

Donnie Yen's Ip Man states, "It's not the North or South question, the question lies with you." (I am translating from Mandarin to English in my head - I didn't see the movie at first with English subtitles)

Chan Master Hsuan Hua (Hendrik's Chan Sifu) stated, "Only you can drink the water and know if its cool or hot." :)

If not, cultivate, be humble, and ask your sifu and good knowing advisors how you can develop. Telling you what enlightenment is will not get you enlightened.

Master Hsuan Hua also said, "Boiling sand will not produce rice". Very plainly, starting out wrong will only lead you to incorrect results.

Hendrik is not your sifu; you have to do your work. No one is privledged to get all the information without paying their dues of time and energy.

As I quoted Confucious, "If I point out one corner of a table, and the student cannot point out the other three corners of the table, I refuse to teach him."

WCK people think that the art is simple, direct and economical. I assure you, it may be simple to understand, but difficult to attain; It might be direct in application, but you will take many lumps and hit many ruts before you can really attain; and finally, it may be economical in function, but that attainment comes after spending many years of eating bitter and suffering, and will take its toll mentally, emotionally and physically. And for all the alleged economical, its certainly not in $ - it certainly has cost me in lots of time and money over the last 3 decades.

Keep training!

Golden Arms

04-15-2009, 11:01 AM

Agreed, the "knowing" comes from directly experiencing, from my experience thus far. Any other type of knowledge is really knowing of a thing, but knowing it is a different animal.

To quote John Wang, "The skill that you can use in sparring is your true skill. The skill that you can't use in sparring is the skill that you think you have but you truly don't have it yet."

I put that in here to illustrate that knowing of a thing and experiencing a thing can vary quite a bit. I apologize if this gets into the realm of being too "Zen/Chan" for anyone.

Yoshiyahu

04-16-2009, 09:41 AM

As for worring about myself. i guess if I did that I would not post at all on boards...this is a Forum or discussion if you will. Dialogue goes both ways. As for me worring about Hendrik. He attest that certain answers may or may not be right. So I called him out on what the true answers is. Everything he has said I hold him accountable for. He said before unless you have Jing you have no WC. So when I asked does he have Jing or have the ability to express what he is saying it is clearly correlating something he has written in the past.

As for my Sifu, Brothers and Uncles. Yes of course I train,listen and asked questions. Thats why they are there. But on Forum I have time at work to be entertained an discuss ideas with people of different lineages and styles. To me its great to discuss head knowledge. Who knows something you do may be different from what we do. Why not asked questions on a Forum, With other martial artist you meet at school,church,work or the tournments? why not learn more from interactions,altercations and fights. After all these things give us extra experiences. The more experience you have the more your skill will increase.

As for true demostration. People speak about Chi and Jing and correct body structure. But the truth is when you touch hands can they demostrate against a skilled oppopnent. There are many varibles to why they may or may not be able to actually demostrate Jing or Inch power. One reason why they can not is because their adversary is more skilled than them. Or because they really do not know what they are doing.

But in either case. Like Niehoff always says. Talking about doing static exercises or non-realistic drills is not real fighting. So when it comes to actual combat the quasi knowledge you have in jing,zhen,shen,jin,fajin,chi or Tao won't aid you in the least.

I asked questions because I want to hear peoples viewpoints. Even if I disagree I still want to hear your opinion. I share my opinion honestly from time to time for you to criticize so why not share yours. Stop making everything a secret. You guys complain all the time about stuff being hard and costing time and money.

Well who cares. If you want to be good at basketball you have to buy a ball and hoop and net. You have shoot thousands of three pointers and layups and dunks if you want to be good. You have to run everyday and also shoot the ball every day. You have to be diligent. An along with that you have to go to practice regularly. So to be good at basketball player you have to go to practice. An you have to practice on your own at home. The be a good defensive player you need an opponent to practice one on one. If you only shoot by your self an never play against another opponent you will never learn how to shoot under pressure.

Same with Running,Swimming,Football,boxing and Karate.

If you want to be good boxer I suggest you jump rope,hit a heavy bag and speed bag. Go to gym regularly. Also lift weights. Do some running. Practice shadow boxing and sparring. If you only shadow box and do all the other training but never spar with an opponent the first time you have fight you will get knocked out because you have no experience on how to connect all the punches and bobbing and weaving you learned.

With WC it also takes blood sweat and tears. Outside of Class you need to practice. Besides doing Stationary drills and Chi sau you need to spar. You need to spar different scenarios or different opponents. That way you will be well rounded. But if your not willing to practice on your own at home and spar then you will only aquire one third of your WC.

Wing Chun Skills

1.Class Practice
2.Home practice
3.Sparring-Chi Sau-two man drills

All three make up the bulk of your WC. Your class should include Two man drills and Chi Sau and if it includes sparring too thats great. Also at home sometimes practice with other WC brothers and sisters. Or invite friends who practice other arts to train with. That way you can spar.

As for the mumbo jumbo...my question remains

Can you duplicate what your talking...If not then all you say is empty words!!!

~ Shalowm ~

Yoshiyahu,

Worry more about yourself - As Hawkins Cheung always asked me, "Can you do it?!" It was never a question if he had ability or not, what mattered was if I could duplicate it...

In the recent Ip Man movie, the Northerner declares after Ip Man defeats him, "Today Northern Fist loses to Southern Fist!"

Donnie Yen's Ip Man states, "It's not the North or South question, the question lies with you." (I am translating from Mandarin to English in my head - I didn't see the movie at first with English subtitles)

Chan Master Hsuan Hua (Hendrik's Chan Sifu) stated, "Only you can drink the water and know if its cool or hot." :)

If not, cultivate, be humble, and ask your sifu and good knowing advisors how you can develop. Telling you what enlightenment is will not get you enlightened.

Master Hsuan Hua also said, "Boiling sand will not produce rice". Very plainly, starting out wrong will only lead you to incorrect results.

Hendrik is not your sifu; you have to do your work. No one is privledged to get all the information without paying their dues of time and energy.

As I quoted Confucious, "If I point out one corner of a table, and the student cannot point out the other three corners of the table, I refuse to teach him."

WCK people think that the art is simple, direct and economical. I assure you, it may be simple to understand, but difficult to attain; It might be direct in application, but you will take many lumps and hit many ruts before you can really attain; and finally, it may be economical in function, but that attainment comes after spending many years of eating bitter and suffering, and will take its toll mentally, emotionally and physically. And for all the alleged economical, its certainly not in $ - it certainly has cost me in lots of time and money over the last 3 decades.

Keep training!