Forms again

[wetwonder]

I think that the thread in the Southern styles forum on forms brought out the basis for disagreement on forms.


It seems your issues with forms is about the fighting side of it.

Our Sifu says that forms, performed correctly, striving for perfect technique, demonstrate the grandeur and beauty of Kung Fu.

IMO, there is a school of traditional practicioners that regard fighting as just one element in studying Kung Fu, rather than a driving force behind learning it.

It seems that the folks that question forms put most all their focus into fighting as a goal. In contrast, the folks that enjoy or don't have a problem with forms are mostly focused on the "art" itself.

On the question of whether practicing forms is "necessary" to be an effective fighter - there is, on the one hand, zero correct answers, and on the other hand millions of opinions.

[Hardwork108]

I think that the thread in the Southern styles forum on forms brought out the basis for disagreement on forms.



Our Sifu says that forms, performed correctly, striving for perfect technique, demonstrate the grandeur and beauty of Kung Fu.

IMO, there is a school of traditional practicioners that regard fighting as just one element in studying Kung Fu, rather than a driving force behind learning it.

It seems that the folks that question forms put most all their focus into fighting as a goal. In contrast, the folks that enjoy or don't have a problem with forms are mostly focused on the "art" itself.

On the question of whether practicing forms is "necessary" to be an effective fighter - there is, on the one hand, zero correct answers, and on the other hand millions of opinions.

The correct approach and understanding of ones forms training will result in a better understanding of one's given style(s) of kung fu on many levels and hence contribute to a better fighting ability, as long as the other aspects of TCMAs are trained in parallel as well.:)

Those who see forms training as irrelevant are better off practicing kickboxing or most probably they already are, even if they don't know it themselves.;)

[golden arhat]

remember people


WE DO NOT FEED THIS TROLL

IGNORING *name removed so as not to recognise his existence* WILL LEAD TO IT GOING AWAY THEN WE CAN DISCUSS MARTIAL ARTS IN PEACE



THIS HAS BEEN A KFM PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT


thankyou.

[wetwonder]

Those who see forms training as irrelevant are better off practicing kickboxing or most probably they already are, even if they don't know it themselves.;)

No no, I wasn't being derogatory towards anyone who focuses on fighting.

I was just thinking through these perpetual form threads, and agree with others who've suggested that the two side of the debate are made up of students who focus on the sporting part of fighting and students that are driven more by the "art" as a whole. Both are important, yet different.

[golden arhat]

please see my previous post. :)

[wetwonder]

Golden, I saw your post but didn't know what it meant. I think I'm missing an inside something or other.

[Hardwork108]

Golden, I saw your post but didn't know what it meant. I think I'm missing an inside something or other.

Wetwonder, golden arhat and some of his (mainly none-kung fu) forum friends have been spreading misinformation about me for a long time here. They just want to convince everyone that I am a troll or even other vile accusations.

The fact is that they don't like it when I "present" anything resembling the traditional approach to kung fu training, while they go on to preach the "benefits" of MMA to everybody and their grandmothers in the forums.

It is still a mystery for me why MMA-ists would want to post in a Kung fu forum rather than an MMA one.

[wetwonder]

Ah OK. Not all this again. I understand.

[Hardwork108]

No no, I wasn't being derogatory towards anyone who focuses on fighting.
I didn't say that you were. Sorry, if it came across that way.:o

You made a valid post and started a valid thread. I was just contributing to it, (unlike our MMA "friend"golden arhat), and perhaps did not get my wording right.


I was just thinking through these perpetual form threads, and agree with others who've suggested that the two side of the debate are made up of students who focus on the sporting part of fighting and students that are driven more by the "art" as a whole. Both are important, yet different.

The forms training is part and parcel of traditional kung fu training. Forms work in various levels. This type of training is more than just going through the motions.

Luckily for me, the sifus with whom I have studied kung fu have been combat but NOT sport oriented. They all regard forms training as fundemental. I suspect that they know something that many of the "kung fu-ists" here in the forums are missing.;)

[Hardwork108]

Ah OK. Not all this again. I understand.

You started a good thread. Let's just ignore anyone who does not contribute to it .:)

[Kansuke]

They just want to convince everyone that I am a troll .



No one could do a better job of that than you, TYGM.

[golden arhat]

CEASE AND DESIST
we can make him go away if we dont talk to him

[golden arhat]

Wetwonder, golden arhat and some of his (mainly none-kung fu) forum friends

**read, everyone



couldnt resist :D

seriously tho

DO NOT TALK TO IT ITS NOT WORTHY OF YOUR ATTENTION

[Hardwork108]

the two side of the debate are made up of students who focus on the sporting part of fighting and students that are driven more by the "art" as a whole.........

Just to emphasis (and sticking to the interesting and relevant subject matter of this thread), that the students who are driven more by the art and who take forms training seriously are more often than not also practicing and perfecting the combat aspects of the kung fu as a part of an holistic approach together with the internals and so on.

The idea that some people present which implies that the sporting part of fighting is the real kung fu and that the forms training part is for the "dancer" is false and is propogated by people who have misunderstood the TCMAs. :)

[lkfmdc]

wetwonder

the Hung Ga I learned only had 4 sets (Gung Gee Fook Fu, Fu Hok, Ng Yuhng Ng Haang and Tit Sin). We spent one year leaning basics, one year each form. I finished Tit Sin in 1987. IE I've been around for a little while....



Our Sifu says that forms, performed correctly, striving for perfect technique, demonstrate the grandeur and beauty of Kung Fu.


Nothing particularly wrong with the above sentiment. Yup, if you can perform them correctly you will learn a lot. But the process learning how to perform them correctly is not scientific, it is "hit or miss" and it also pre-supposes that you happen to have hours a day, every day for the rest of your life

But, perhaps more importantly, just because you can perform the techniques and the sets well, doesn't at all mean you will be able to fight, period




IMO, there is a school of traditional practicioners that regard fighting as just one element in studying Kung Fu, rather than a driving force behind learning it.


the truth, reality, it is a biotch... TCMA are about fighting. Not that long ago that is ALL THEY WERE ABOUT, period. Read Kennedy's great book on training manuals and your eyes will open (or you'll jump out a window)

The "masters of old", and right there we have some issues as well, were trying to be great fighters, but that doesn't mean that their methods were the best path.

[David Jamieson]

martial arts are first and foremost "martial"

there is no reason to pursue martial arts other than to refine, learn how to, or continue to train, fighting skills.

otherwise it's just qigongs for health. which is totally separate.

one could extract all the gongs and do that. But It would be egregious to call that "martial arts".

[bawang]

hy guys

u know funny thing is, all the kung fu movies i watch, i almost never see them training forms

i see them hitting things and sparring

somehow poeple forget that

[Hardwork108]

hy guys

u know funny thing is, all the kung fu movies i watch, i almost never see them training forms

i see them hitting things and sparring

somehow poeple forget that

You must be learning from the same kung fu movies as Lkfmdc....lol...:D

Seriously though, I have seen the type of movies that you talk about and I have also seen ones where forms are trained.

Yes, it is true that kung fu is about fighting but forms training is a fundemental aspect of that together with two man training (including sparring).

Some forms also have internal benefits that are relevant to fighting.

[wetwonder]

I did some searching on forms and found a nice quote:

____________________

"The most precise way to practice [forms in] Hung Gar Maril Arts is slow. To perform it, internal strength must be developed by using all of the inner resources of the body. It is different from the use of external force such as lifting weights, which mainly depend on one's size and weight and which one can by no means get from practice. In contrast, one can get internal strength gradually by means of practice of [forms]. Therefore the practice is not fast, but it must be done precisely.

. . .

The exerciser uses his or her patience in slow motion forms to practice Hung Kuen, to exercise his or her muscles, skeleton and whole body. . . .

. . .

Finally, it must be emphasized that the characterics of Hung Kuen include hardness as well as softness, slowness as well as speed, no external force but internal strength . . . . If one can execute these characteristics, then one is considered an actual exerciser of Hung Kuen."

_____________________

It regards the manner of developing internal strength, and that internal strength is what makes the practicioner. Forms facilitate internal strength.

[Hardwork108]

I did some searching on forms and found a nice quote:

____________________

"The most precise way to practice [forms in] Hung Gar Maril Arts is slow. To perform it, internal strength must be developed by using all of the inner resources of the body. It is different from the use of external force such as lifting weights, which mainly depend on one's size and weight and which one can by no means get from practice. In contrast, one can get internal strength gradually by means of practice of [forms]. Therefore the practice is not fast, but it must be done precisely.

. . .

The exerciser uses his or her patience in slow motion forms to practice Hung Kuen, to exercise his or her muscles, skeleton and whole body. . . .

. . .

Finally, it must be emphasized that the characterics of Hung Kuen include hardness as well as softness, slowness as well as speed, no external force but internal strength . . . . If one can execute these characteristics, then one is considered an actual exerciser of Hung Kuen."

_____________________

It regards the manner of developing internal strength, and that internal strength is what makes the practicioner. Forms facilitate internal strength.

Very good post. Actually, little understood styles such as Southern Praying Mantis use more or less the same approach as you have quoted. Weight training is an apparent no,no in this way of internal cultivation.

[bawang]

meow
meow



meow meow
meow



It seems that the folks that question forms put most all their focus into fighting as a goal. In contrast, the folks that enjoy or don't have a problem with forms are mostly focused on the "art" itself.

i sorry to tell u but the "art" of kung fu is the art of smash another man in face it is art of cruelty
your spiritual masters were smuggling salt robbing people and finishing missionaries and nuns from the demon sect
i think thats honorable and carries spirit of hap but not really spiritual

[wetwonder]

meow


meow



i sorry to tell u but the "art" of kung fu is the art of smash another man in face it is art of cruelty
your spiritual masters were smuggling salt robbing people and finishing missionaries and nuns from the demon sect
i think thats honorable and carries spirit of hap but not really spiritual

I don't think so. I think "bad" people do all that stuff. Regular folk, like myself and most people on this forum, learn kung fu in order to not have to fight, and to feel good about not fighting. Because most people do not want to hurt others. At least regular folks don't.

[TenTigers]

I suffer from occasional irregularity.

[Lucas]

I suffer from occasional irregularity.

lol that made me bust up laughing :D

[wetwonder]

I suffer from occasional irregularity.

There's a difference between contributing and being disrespectful to other people. When a student is disrespectful at our school, Sifu will not teach him/her for a period of time. People in forums, however, answer only to themselves.

[bawang]

I don't think so. I think "bad" people do all that stuff. Regular folk, like myself and most people on this forum, learn kung fu in order to not have to fight, and to feel good about not fighting. Because most people do not want to hurt others. At least regular folks don't.

if you dont want to hurt others, dont fight
if you dont want to fight, no need to learn kung fu, because you will never be able to defend yourself

[lkfmdc]

I don't think so. I think "bad" people do all that stuff.


.




When a student is disrespectful at our school, Sifu will not teach him/her for a period of time.

dear lord , another fantasy land wacko :rolleyes:

[wetwonder]

if you dont want to hurt others, dont fight
if you dont want to fight, no need to learn kung fu, because you will never be able to defend yourself

Yes, I see where you stand on this.

[bawang]

Yes, I see where you stand on this.
if you can finish a man just by reaching out your hand, but you dont want to, that is enlightenment
if you cant fight but say its because you dont want to, that jsut make you a big hairy smelly pusy


Regular folk, like myself and most people on this forum, learn kung fu in order to not have to fight, and to feel good about not fighting. .
first, regular folks like you are the ones being milked for money and taught garbage that if you try to use one day, will make you die

second, regular folks like you are the ones that see someone getting beaten on the ground and stand around and watch, even after 10 years you will never have spirit of the hap the wandering hero

third, regular folks like you are the ones that look down on the ground and hand over robbers your monehs


I suffer from occasional irregularity.
you must be very jealous of me my bowel movment is very good, thanks to testicle five outstanding shouting golden bell qigong i focus qi to the anus meridian and poo shoot like torpedo

[wetwonder]

if you can finish a man just by reaching out your hand, but you dont want to, that is enlightenment
if you cant fight but say its because you dont want to, that jsut make you a big hairy smelly pusy


first, regular folks like you are the ones being milked for money and taught garbage that if you try to use one day, will make you die

second, regular folks like you are the ones that see someone getting beaten on the ground and stand around and watch, even after 10 years you will never have spirit of the hap the wandering hero

third, regular folks like you are the ones that look down on the ground and hand over robbers your monehs


you must be very jealous of me my bowel movment is very good, thanks to testicle five outstanding shouting golden bell qigong i focus qi to the anus meridian and poo shoot like torpedo


Yes, I see.

[YouKnowWho]

don't have a problem with forms are mostly focused on the "art" itself.
A: You need to lean to reach.
B: Reach what?
A: Your opponent.
B: What opponent? :confused:
A: :(

When you remove "opponent" from your picture, you can do anything you want and there will be no right or wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A: You need to lean to reach.
B: Reach what?
A: Your opponent.
B: What opponent? :confused:
A: :(

When you remove "opponent" from your picture, you can do anything you want and there will be no right or wrong.

To add to what John said, remember there is only one constant in any fight you will ever have:
YOU.

[SPJ]

for most people;

1. we start with stances.

2. we learn and practice single move over and over.

3. we learn and practice several moves in a combo or a posture.

--

personally, I hate long forms. b/c I can not remember them all the time.

A. sparring,

1. arranged. we practice to use the single and combo moves in an arranged or rehearsed sparring. or cooperative partners. to be familiar with the conditions that the move work or does not work

2. free sparring, real time, resistant partner.

B. arts

1. timing and space.

2. tactics and strategy to use a single move or combo

if we may use the move or combo well in real time and with resistant partner

we know that we carry the skill of the move and know the "art" part of the move.

in short.

remembering the sequence of long forms and doing them in a certain manner

may not have anything to do with using them in a fight real time and with random counters from the opponent.

that was what YKW meant.

:D

[SPJ]

some functions of long or short forms practice

1. we practice to have the proper structure or frame. Xing Jia.

2. we practice to have balanced distribution of power. Jin Jia

in this, we only learn how to position and release balanced power in a small scale.

never full scale, either stomping feet or punching and kicking.

we have to practice more to full power release with punching bags, and pads, poles, etc. hitting sand or flour bag etc da zhuang.

3. we practice to have the spirits/shen. gong jia.

4. breathing exercise, we practice to move slowly and evenly and also to inhale and exhale slowly and evenly. breathing coupled with moves of opening and closing in our postures.

----


:)

[SPJ]

make a long story short

to know the art of your moves

is to use them in a fight skillfully both in timing and space/position.

also know when and where we may or may not use a certain move etc

how it will or will not work

----

:D

[Hardwork108]

Yes, I see.

Now you see the type of stuff that I have to deal with in this so called Kung Fu forum. Well lets just take it with a pinch of salt shall we.:)

[Hardwork108]

.



dear lord , another fantasy land wacko :rolleyes:

What do you find so wrong with a sifu (a REAL one;)) promoting respectfulness amongst his students?

[wetwonder]

Now you see the type of stuff that I have to deal with in this so called Kung Fu forum. Well lets just take it with a pinch of salt shall we.:)


I'm OK with their opinions. I prefer the opinions being respectful, but everyone is different.

[Hardwork108]

I'm OK with their opinions. I prefer the opinions being respectful, but everyone is different.

My respects to you.:)

[wetwonder]

.

dear lord , another fantasy land wacko :rolleyes:


Well said. Bon dit. Dices bien. Diga buena. Bem dize. Godt han seger. Hoh gahng. Godt se. Wewe ve jema.

[lkfmdc]

I hate to interject reality into TCMA BUT

one of the most prominent members of the West Coast CMA community was a "hit man" for Chinese organized crime

one of the most prominent members of the East Coast CMA community ran both gambling dens and brothels

one prominent Hung Ga sifu used to take his students to the OTB place and have them beat up people who owed money to the local gang

one prominent Tai Chi sifu used to "interrogate" commmunists for the KMT in Taiwan

The list is a long one really

[sanjuro_ronin]

I hate to interject reality into TCMA BUT

one of the most prominent members of the West Coast CMA community was a "hit man" for Chinese organized crime

one of the most prominent members of the East Coast CMA community ran both gambling dens and brothels

one prominent Hung Ga sifu used to take his students to the OTB place and have them beat up people who owed money to the local gang

one prominent Tai Chi sifu used to "interrogate" commmunists for the KMT in Taiwan

The list is a long one really

Very long, the brother of my current HK sifu is still in hiding, LOL !

[Hardwork108]

I hate to interject reality into TCMA BUT

one of the most prominent members of the West Coast CMA community was a "hit man" for Chinese organized crime

one of the most prominent members of the East Coast CMA community ran both gambling dens and brothels

one prominent Hung Ga sifu used to take his students to the OTB place and have them beat up people who owed money to the local gang

one prominent Tai Chi sifu used to "interrogate" commmunists for the KMT in Taiwan

The list is a long one really


And they say that TCMAs are not functional.:D

And it gets worse....some people claiming TCMA background are nothing but Glorified Kickboxing coaches and only hang around the forums to sell their modernized "kung fu":rolleyes: schools and/or merchandizing purposes.:eek:

[golden arhat]

please stop talking to him

[Hardwork108]

please stop talking to him


I want to but he keeps posting to me!

[Kansuke]

That's a clever little quote in the TYGM's sig, but unfortunately I never said what was quoted. No surprise, as Basement Boy lives in his own imagination anyway.