My first class with Sifu Othal Thomas

[harkfu]

Thanks loki for recommending Sifu Thomas.
My first class was learning basic stances ( something Sifu called botbo)and chigun (something to do with moving and breathing ). I learned the first three steps; wah se, Gun se and dio mah (not sure about the spelling).
Sifu Thomas teaches each of us one at a time and he is the only one that does the teaching. One of the students said that Sifu Thomas won't let others teach because people pay to learn from the instructor not a student.
Eventhough I only learned 3 stances I was alowed to try the entire drill along with the class during the class work out. My legs shook so badly I wanted to quit but the class encouraged me not to give up.
The breathing I just don't get yet but, it was my first class and I now know what is expected. Also Sifu Thomas uses a lot of chinese words and he told me to bring a notebook so that I can right down everything that I learn.
I also learned that in his class the word block is no used and if you think that you can block a mantis you are in trouble.
I know Sifu Thomas reads the posts so, Thanks Sifu see you in class tonite.
PS Man am I sore!!! :)

hark fu

[loki]

Hope it works out for you. Stick with it.

Sifu Thomas is right, my Sifu also taught me that the mantis does not block.


Take care :)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[robertwilliam]

Wadda ya mean by "mantis does not block" , and "you can't block mantis" ? Just curious

[8stepsifu]

yeah; I was taught block and attack at the same time

King of the Assyrians

[robertwilliam]

...well... does anyone have anything to say about "mantis does not block" - I've been thinking for 2 days now about how stupid it sounds...It must be that "monty python -getting hit in the head system"

[harkfu]

Thanks Again Loki, In class tonight I asked one of my seniors to explain what Sifu means by no blocking. My senior explained it by saying there is no keyword for block in our style and that blocking is slow fighting. Then he also explained how the 18 styles which also are keywords contain no blocks.
I asked about the kwa choi (please excuse the spelling) and he said kwa means to suspend or cover it is up to you what you suspend or cover.
Sifu tould the senior that was enough info and told us to practice.
Loki, what I realized is that movements areonly limited by my own point of view or at least it seems that way.
Sifu seemed to known just how much I could understand. It seems that he wants us to open up to the infinite possiblities. Loki, later and to all who read this post all I can say is that Sifu Thomases point of view makes perfect sense to me. :)

make me humble so, that I may learn
Harkfu

[robertwilliam]

Maybe not blocking in the Karate or TKD sense of the word, but there must be a moment, even a 10th of a second where the momentum of the opponents attack is stopped dead, parried, defected, re-directed etc...(unless you dodge and avoid completely, and counter) I call that blocking, or neutralizing the offense.Remember all movements are neither defensive or offensive -each contain potential of the opposite.Just the act of shaving up the inside or outside of the opponents arm right before you mantis grab is blocking that arm from attacking you.

[loki]

Hi,

I just finished reading the replies here and it seems that there is some confusion with regards to the idea that there are no blocks in mantis. I don't have much time to get into that right now but will be happy to say something when I get back.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Lost_Disciple]

Redirection is one of the principles.

I think the point of the statement "no blocking" is that a mantis practisioner doesn't look at a deflection for deflection's sake. Usually contact and redirection are used to take an incoming attack and hook it. In other cases, you use redirection to open up room for an attack. In karate, blocks are practised as single, seperate moves. In mantis this isn't so, and any time what would be considered a block, is used, it's usually used in combination with something else. Meaning, it is not a seperate entity unto itself. "Blocking" may be a component of a larger technique, but not a goal by itself.


Actually, the principles that I can find that seem related include:

From the 12 flexible methods (Baat kung sup yee yau) - from the old Lee Kam wing 7 star book:

5. Deflecting the straight forward punch in accordance with the key word "Hook".

10. Flipping off an attack. (no, not the middle finger)

11. Combining the hands again instantly after the "open arms" blocking movement.

I also see how principles 2 and 3 could include "blocks" as components as well.

From the 8 hards- there's always "ou lau tsoi".

These are just my opinions; I'm just a total beginner, and I'm probly totally wrong.


Hey loki- I might be moving back east, to Baltimore, at the end of the summer, maybe we can hang out when I visit my aunt in manhattan. :

[loki]

Hi Lost Disciple, you're right on track. One of our mottos says that "defense turns into offense the action rounds" and also "attack the attack". One of our most important principles is "Da" which means to hit or strike. Observe two people fighting and you will usually see the one on defense stop, flinch or move away to block , then they will try to initiate an attack as the other opponent goes through the same motions on defense. This just wastes too much time and puts you in a defensive mode. You cannot attack effectively if you are too busy defending. So what we do is defend by attacking (DA) that is, attacking the opponent's incoming attack with one of our own. Whatever we see coming our way we simply attack it and keep moving forward. This keeps you on the attack and immediately forces the opponent to be on the defensive intead. It basically comes down to not being afraid of getting hit. The natural tendency when you see something threatening coming at you is to move away or block it so it takes alot of practise to get that impulse out of your system. It helps to know that your opponent does not want to get hit either. There's more that can be said about this but it is very difficult to do so by typing. It is much esaier to demontrate what is meant in person. Hope this helps a bit.

LD, my Sifu told me you were moving. If you are ever in the N.Y. area do not hesitate to drop me a line right away. Heck, we're practically family(Kung Fu family that is ;) ). I've already met Sifus Fogg, Hughes and Cheng. I also met Phillip Bolton so it would be nice for you to come down and visit Sifu Albright and myself.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[seung ga faat]

You are both on the track and have boarded the train.
LD since you are using LKW as a reference here is something you can try; With the help of a chinese to english dictionary translate the chinese characters contained in LKW first book, specificly the 12 flexible and the 8 rigid methods. You will be surprised to find out what the characters really state. The ideas expressed

are not as rigid as the translations. :)

Thanx, Sifu Othal Thomas

[robertwilliam]

Pardon my ignorance to 7 star - the tapes and videos that I've reviewed on 7 star appeared that there was some blocking used, and some of the 12 flexible, and 8 ridged methods appeared to have blocking techniques.It must be that 8-step has more, since there is the Hsing Yi, and Bagua influence involved.I checked out some Hsing Yi , and Bagua information, and they both definately had blocking in the techniques.It's just my frame of reference coming from an 8-step background.And all of the 8-step technique that I have learned so far start off with blocking, then striking, then into joinlock / throw, then finishing move.

[loki]

Please forgive my ignorance of 8 Step but can't your blocks be used as attacks ? The problem may lie with the fact that you are looking at certain moves just one way and categorizing things such as "these are the blocks and these are the strikes". Now, there is nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do but wouldn't it be more efficient if you thought of it in terms of your attack is your defense and your defense is your attack. When you spend time blocking (defending) then attacking you waste time. Remember also that the insect which our style derives it's namesake from is a predator. It always moves forward aggressively to "catch" it's prey. That's how we think about it. Again, it's pretty hard to explain in writing. In our system we don't think about techniques per se rather we are always thinking principles. In our keyword formula there is no keyword for "block". Many people translate the word KWA as block but that is incorrect. The proper translation would be along the lines of "hang" or "suspend" in air. By translating it as simply a block you limit the keyword into a specific technique rather than a principle. When we use KWA we use it in various ways, particularly to attack with it. There is really no differentiation between defense and offense. I'm sure you can see moves in our system which you would say "hey, that's definitely a block" but like I said before it depends on how you look at it. We are not in the habit of retreating and when we do we are still attacking. When we look like we may be blocking something it is not in the usual manner in which most people do it. We are charging forward aggressively taking away the opponent's weapons as they are coming at us.

Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[This message was edited by loki on 02-11-01 at 03:34 PM.]

[Lost_Disciple]

Sifu Thomas- I'll make a serious attempt to get those characters translated. I've got some in-house documentation on those principles, I just wanted to quote something that was public and well-published. There's a good chance I'll be working with the NSA in Baltimore, starting in late August, early September. In that case, I might be showing up at your school, begging you to accept me as a student. :)

Loki- I'll definitely drop you guys a line sometime in September, when I go to New York, can't wait! Thanks

[8stepsifu]

Please stop talking about key word principles as if you actually know what they are.

They are actually 12 sub styles within mantis. Not just hooking a punch or clinging to an opponent. It has little to do with the extremeties and everything to do with waist movement. Thats the original 12 characters of wong long and not something that strictly originated in 8-Step. Frankly I'm supprised that you guys don't know this. I'm not trying to be rude, it just seems silly to speculate. If there is one thing I have learned getting into the higher levels in mantis is that there are no absolutes. (Paradoxical eh?) To say "Mantis has no......" Or "Mantis always....." is wrong. It's too huge to generalize. If you are getting into the meat of mantis, then every generalization you have will soon be exploded to creat fertile soil for new learning

[This message was edited by 8stepsifu on 02-12-01 at 09:22 AM.]

[BeiTangLang]

How about "mantis never blocks hard like TKD"?

"It's all the same; Only the names have changed........."

[loki]

8stepsifu,

I dont't know where that came from . My point is simply that we do not concern ourselves with blocking when we fight. That is not to say we have no defense and we walk into oncoming attacks blindly. Let's just say our attack and defense is interchangeable. What does that have to do with what you said? You are right in saying that mantis is "too huge to generalize" but it can be broken down into different parts for the sake of a particular discussion. Obviously, you cannot cover all aspects of the art via a couple of posts but you can certainly talk about the different aspects which make up the art. Again, the no blocking concept has nothing to do with techniques. It's just a way of thinking.

Question for you 8StepSifu, what do mean by "they are actually 12 substyles of mantis" ? Are you referring to the 12 keyword formula? When you say system aren't you limiting the system ? We are are taught that they are principles , not techniques, not styles or system. This opens up the possibilities of what can be done. The mantis, as I am sure you know is made up of 17 different styles plus the mantis itself but knowing that is different from knowing the principles, concepts and theories that have been developed through the generations. Otherwise we would only be using the specific techniques which are outlined in each particular style which makes up the mantis system i.e., 17 techniques + the mantis techniques developed by Wang Lang.

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[robertwilliam]

There are 12 flexible, and 8 ridged methods - and 12 keyword formula - two different things.Wong Long created the 12 keywords while observing the mantids over three years.I don't know when the 12 flexible, and 8 ridged were created.
I didn't say the word "hard block" about TKD - I meant to say that I think a karate or TKD block has different ?philosiphy? than Kung fu blocking - that's all.

[robertwilliam]

... and the 17 styles in combination with mantis. And yes, in 8 - step, the blocks can be thought of as both offensive and defensive - as per Loki's statement -I totally agree - in fact,when showing, or diplaying the blocks (8 basic upper body blocks, and 8 basic lower body blocks), they could be mistaken for a strike.Ie, the uppercut looks alot like the inside to outside block, and vice versa.And vice versa as far as applying them.Same with the axe kick and the instep block...etc. ,etc...Your absolutly right about concepts vs black and white ideas "this is a block,and this is a strike".Something that looks like an uppercut can turn into 20 million things other than just an uppercut.

[loki]

Exactly!

Peace :)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[harkfu]

Loki, I have been watching the posts and being very quiet because I don't know that much about mantis to engage in the discussion but, it seems that I am learning the real thing which was the reason why I placed this post in the first place.
Before anyones ego starts to flare up remember I am new to this and you must admitt that this must be important to cause such discourse.
Sifu Thomas is a good no nonsense instructor and by the way I am almost finished the baht bo drill Thanx again to everyone for enlightening me. :)

make me humble so, that I may learn
Harkfu

[loki]

Harkfu, stay in touch! ;)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[This message was edited by loki on 02-13-01 at 02:59 PM.]

[seung ga faat]

I was amazed by some of the responses. How can something so simple be seen as so unbelievable?
________
r47 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/BMW_R47)
________
WENDIE 99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[EarthDragon]

Shifu Thomas, sometimes our students take things to literal and confuse the obvious.

I once said to one of my students that 8 step mantis fighters have no retreat.......... When I defended an attack and slid back to counter, my student said umm shifu, I thought you said we dont go backwards.