Chi And Internal Power

[hulkout]

Okay, I'm not trying to start any kind of flame war here. But I have to ask the question. Has anyone ever seen a REAL demonstration of this internal power that everyone always talks about? For years, I've heard about internal power and how guys like me (mainly JKD having also trained in Choy Lay Fut and Western Boxing) only train externally and not internally. I honestly can't see any of this supposed internal power. I mean striking power or grappling techniques can all be explained by physics such as weight shifting, twisting of the waist and hips, leverage, angles, etc. And as far as those Shaolin monk demos go, my understanding is that those are basically parlor tricks. Sure some people can train themselves to withstand a lot of punishment. But then again, you can give a professional boxer a shovel hook right in the gut and he'll stand there and take it without keeling over. That doesn't mean he is a master of Chi. It simply means that he's well trained and conditioned. I've even heard people bull**** about how they channeled their chi into a glass of water and gave it to a sick man and was cured. And there's a youtube video of a guy who supposedly uses hard Chi Kung to stiffen a 20 dollar bill enough to break a rice bowl. I'm sorry but as far as I can tell, external training is the only thing that will actually train you to fight.

[bawang]

hy hulkout
there is no such thing as internal
some ming dynasty guy wrote a book, his opinion was there is internal and he didnt know much kung fu
in the end "internal" "external" end up the same

"internal" involves diet fasting and qigong meditation to get as small as possible
internal kung fu also lift weights and beat bags

has nothing to do with qi, just trying to look not strong for safety reasons in ancient china

[RonH]

Okay, I'm not trying to start any kind of flame war here. But I have to ask the question. Has anyone ever seen a REAL demonstration of this internal power that everyone always talks about?

There is a wide range of things that would fall under this category. Some are subtle, some aren't.


For years, I've heard about internal power and how guys like me (mainly JKD having also trained in Choy Lay Fut and Western Boxing) only train externally and not internally. I honestly can't see any of this supposed internal power. I mean striking power or grappling techniques can all be explained by physics such as weight shifting, twisting of the waist and hips, leverage, angles, etc.

So, then how do you explain why they are possible? And I don't the mechanistic reasoning. Science has no place when it comes to the 'why' of a thing. There are many areas of knowledge that do not use science. If you think that, you need to re-examine everything in your life, including the arts, like TV or sculpting or painting.


And as far as those Shaolin monk demos go, my understanding is that those are basically parlor tricks. Sure some people can train themselves to withstand a lot of punishment. But then again, you can give a professional boxer a shovel hook right in the gut and he'll stand there and take it without keeling over. That doesn't mean he is a master of Chi. It simply means that he's well trained and conditioned. I've even heard people bull**** about how they channeled their chi into a glass of water and gave it to a sick man and was cured.

You say this, but at the same time, you admit to have never studied it. Do you understand why? So, if you really want to study this area of knowledge...if it is true or not...why are you coming into this study with such preconcived notions and assumptions? You're starting with the idea of 'prove me wrong', assuming that what you believe is the truth automatically and unquestionable. That's your attitude going into this.

Why should qi studies be subservient to such problems of an individual person's ego? If you went in any other kind of studies, literature or even chemistry, would you feel this is appropriate or should you be laughed at and told to get out?


And there's a youtube video of a guy who supposedly uses hard Chi Kung to stiffen a 20 dollar bill enough to break a rice bowl. I'm sorry but as far as I can tell, external training is the only thing that will actually train you to fight.

Even within hard/external styles, you've got charlatens. The soft styles are no different. Nor should it be a slam against the validity of soft styles' studies, including qi studies. There have been charlatens in the physical sciences. Does it make sense that we should disregard science just because of these charlatens? No, because you would keep searching to see if it's true. The charlaten doesn't factor into it. What factors in is the study of the actual material.

Do you find the use of this double standard to be appropriate, as well as in the example above? Or are you gonna say 'okay, I'm gonna stop and try to understand what it is that they are saying and doing and what this whole thing is based upon?

For someone that's acting with a supposed scientific method mindset, you aren't being very scientific. Or even logical.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ever hear of an old lady who can pick up a car...




www.kungfuchengdu.com

You know, and not to say I don't agree with our post Andy, but this "old lady" keeps being brought up, that and 'records" of other people doing these "supernatural" feats, but were are these records and who was that "old lady"?
Serious question.

[taai gihk yahn]

For someone that's acting with a supposed scientific method mindset, you aren't being very scientific. Or even logical.

this from a man who believes that he can project his intention to singlehandedly create a cascade of healing energy that will have a direct effect on millions of people worldwide and the use of black magic rituals as a way of meting out justice to rapists and murderers who slip through the cracks of the judiciary system (or something weird like that, I don't completely remember, but it amounts to the same thing) :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

hy hulkout
there is no such thing as internal
some ming dynasty guy wrote a book, his opinion was there is internal and he didnt know much kung fu
in the end "internal" "external" end up the same

"internal" involves diet fasting and qigong meditation to get as small as possible
internal kung fu also lift weights and beat bags

has nothing to do with qi, just trying to look not strong for safety reasons in ancient china

qft

p.s it was Sun lu-tang who perpetuated the myth of internal/external (in the qing dynasty).

[taai gihk yahn]

p.s it was Sun lu-tang who began the myth.

what a putz...;)

[David Jamieson]

what a putz...;)

How else was he gonna sell people on the idea of yet one more style of tai chi? lol

Anyway, the whole argument is moot in my opinion.

as in, there is no such thing as delineated internal and external ways to achieve martial expertise one way over the other.

there are benifits to practicing so called internal arts. for instance, older people or weaker people are unable to practice practical and usable martial arts, and so they can do these exercises instead to keep their blood flow good and the joints supple.

It's been shown to be pretty much useless material when it comes to virtually any form of combat however, even with the whole idea of combat tai chi, which turns out to be mostly chin na and structural advantage. :-)

[bawang]

qft

p.s it was Sun lu-tang who perpetuated the myth of internal/external (in the qing dynasty).

there was another guy in ming dynasty
who is sun lu tang? i never heard of him??

[taai gihk yahn]

How else was he gonna sell people on the idea of yet one more style of tai chi? lol

Anyway, the whole argument is moot in my opinion.

as in, there is no such thing as delineated internal and external ways to achieve martial expertise one way over the other.

there are benifits to practicing so called internal arts. for instance, older people or weaker people are unable to practice practical and usable martial arts, and so they can do these exercises instead to keep their blood flow good and the joints supple.

It's been shown to be pretty much useless material when it comes to virtually any form of combat however, even with the whole idea of combat tai chi, which turns out to be mostly chin na and structural advantage. :-)
you are obviously nothing more than a Glorified Kickboxer Knucklehead (GKK)

[David Jamieson]

you are obviously nothing more than a Glorified Kickboxer Knucklehead (GKK)

so be it... :)

[David Jamieson]

there was another guy in ming dynasty
who is sun lu tang? i never heard of him??

inventor of sun style tai chi. borrowed from wu(hao) style quite a lot though.
last of the big 5 tai chi styles. (Chen, Yang, Wu(hao), Wu and Sun)

[bawang]

oh that guy
he took out all the fight application out of the forms and teach to old people

[taai gihk yahn]

oh that guy
he took out all the fight application out of the forms and teach to old people

and rich people, don't forget them!

[RonH]

First off, you are attacking me instead of what I say. If you're gonna respond, debate the logic of the argument and don't let yourself drop down to character attacks in place of a rebuttal. You're presenting yourself as childish and there's no reason for that. If you don't agree with what I say, debate the points themselves. Otherwise, you're just making posts that just take up space, like a lot of the other drek on this board.


this from a man who believes that he can project his intention to singlehandedly create a cascade of healing energy that will have a direct effect on millions of people worldwide

It's far simpler than you've propping it up to be. You aren't one of those people that doesn't believe that even socially, people are interconnected, right? The whole bleedin' world is. You don't have to believe me. All you got to do is look at how royally fu@ked up the world's economy is. And if you can't even agree with me on that, I see no point in speaking with you.


and the use of black magic rituals as a way of meting out justice to rapists and murderers who slip through the cracks of the judiciary system (or something weird like that

I wasn't advocating any type of mysticism for that use. What's his name was using as an arugment against the existence of energy manipulation the notion that there is no legal recourse for people to use when they are attacked in that fashion. It lacked a logic foundation then and it still does, no matter how much you jump up and down about it.


I don't completely remember, but it amounts to the same thing) :rolleyes:

Then, here's a tip. Take the time that to find out what was actually said instead of participating in the politics of the situation. The only thing you're making yourself out to be is one of the mindless masses always looking for someone else to tell them what to do.

If you can't be bothered to try to figure out what was said before attacking someone, don't make yourself look pitiful by attacking with an argument that isn't even based on facts.

[Baqualin]

It's been shown to be pretty much useless material when it comes to virtually any form of combat however, even with the whole idea of combat tai chi, which turns out to be mostly chin na and structural advantage. :-)

I feel Baqua & Hsing I are very useful for combat.

[David Jamieson]

I feel Baqua & Hsing I are very useful for combat.

They haven't really been demonstrated as such in recent history. They may very well be that, I've not seen them practiced in any way other than solo form work.

I think I've seen one clip of "bagua" sparring, but it degenrated fast into glorified kickboxing knuckle headedness...so the jury is still out with me. :)

On the other hand, I've seen people beat the crap out of others using karate, kempo, shaolin, choy li fut, hung kuen, wing chun, preying mantis, boxing, jujitsu, wrestling, mma, MT, Burmese boxing and so on and so on.

I've never actually seen a so called internal fighter succeed in any venue of fisticuffs or even gong sau...

pointing it out, but look at that moon! not my finger! lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

They haven't really been demonstrated as such in recent history. They may very well be that, I've not seen them practiced in any way other than solo form work.

I think I've seen one clip of "bagua" sparring, but it degenrated fast into glorified kickboxing knuckle headedness...so the jury is still out with me. :)

On the other hand, I've seen people beat the crap out of others using karate, kempo, shaolin, choy li fut, hung kuen, wing chun, preying mantis, boxing, jujitsu, wrestling, mma, MT, Burmese boxing and so on and so on.

I've never actually seen a so called internal fighter succeed in any venue of fisticuffs or even gong sau...

pointing it out, but look at that moon! not my finger! lol

The Term is GKK, get it right !
:mad:

[taai gihk yahn]

I think I've seen one clip of "bagua" sparring, but it degenrated fast into glorified kickboxing knuckle headedness...so the jury is still out with me. :)
please use the official abbreviation of GKK (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53703):mad:

[David Jamieson]

wow, you gkk guys are really pushing your agenda.

I'm going to have to make a modified gkk style and promote it to spite you!

I will call it, GKSH! It will be deeper. You already know what the sh means. :D

[Old Noob]

please use the official abbreviation of GKK (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53703):mad:

I think it would have to be "GKKness" in this instance.

[taai gihk yahn]

I think it would have to be "GKKness" in this instance.

do not presume to modify the content of the directive!



:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think it would have to be "GKKness" in this instance.

Kick boxing ninjas with WC background from Tibet have been sent to deal with you, ursurper !!!

[Baqualin]

They haven't really been demonstrated as such in recent history. They may very well be that, I've not seen them practiced in any way other than solo form work.

I think I've seen one clip of "bagua" sparring, but it degenrated fast into glorified kickboxing knuckle headedness...so the jury is still out with me. :)

On the other hand, I've seen people beat the crap out of others using karate, kempo, shaolin, choy li fut, hung kuen, wing chun, preying mantis, boxing, jujitsu, wrestling, mma, MT, Burmese boxing and so on and so on.

I've never actually seen a so called internal fighter succeed in any venue of fisticuffs or even gong sau...

pointing it out, but look at that moon! not my finger! lol

Glad to see you do have an open mind..... with Baqua & Hsing I is, it's still rare to most people....not a lot of real teachers out there ..I do agree with your points.......the old saying...show me.....the only true test.:)
BQ

[taai gihk yahn]

The Term is GKK, get it right !
:mad:
do not presume to speak on behalf of the directive!


:mad:



wow, you gkk guys are really pushing your agenda.

I'm going to have to make a modified gkk style and promote it to spite you!

I will call it, GKSH! It will be deeper. You already know what the sh means. :D
your deviance in regards to the directive has been noted...



:mad:

[David Jamieson]

Kick boxing ninjas with WC background from Tibet have been sent to deal with you, ursurper !!!

you forgot the part about the bat shaped shurikens too.

anyway.... look out beloooooowwww!!!

[taai gihk yahn]

Kick boxing ninjas with WC background from Tibet have been sent to deal with you, ursurper !!!

all who speak out either against or in support of the directive are suspect...


:mad:

[David Jamieson]

do not presume to speak on behalf of the directive!


:mad:



your deviance in regards to the directive has been noted...



:mad:

s'ok, my deviance has been noted plenty of times. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

do not presume to speak on behalf of the directive!


:mad:



your deviance in regards to the directive has been noted...



:mad:

The directive is getting out of hand already !!

[taai gihk yahn]

the directive has decided to take a break and make a really yummy pot of coffee!

:)


err, that is


:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

all who speak out either against or in support of the directive are suspect...


:mad:

*smacks the directive*
Directive?
DIRECTIVE????

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING DIRECTIVE !!!!!

[David Jamieson]

The directive is getting out of hand already !!

martial law happens fast in these parts...

[sanjuro_ronin]

So does rebellion !

[taai gihk yahn]

the directive is on a coffee break and so does not pay heed to any rumblings of the hoi polloi...

[bawang]

too much tlaking waste qi
lets go train mor plz
instead of say how bad kung fu is ,lets impove

[sanjuro_ronin]

too much tlaking waste qi
lets go train mor plz
instead of say how bad kung fu is ,lets impove

We are busy ursurping the power of the directive, kung fu comes later !!

[Old Noob]

I'll be taking my concerns about the directive, and the ninjas, to the committee.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll be taking my concerns about the directive, and the ninjas, to the committee.

No you won't:

[Baqualin]

No you won't:

I've been there:D

[Old Noob]

No you won't:

If you think some GKK is going to distract me with... HOLY CRAP!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've been there:D

You had that dream too?
:p

[David Jamieson]

If you think some GKK is going to distract me with... HOLY CRAP!!!!

that's right man, these are NOT the droids you were looking for. :D

[Baqualin]

You had that dream too?
:p

Are you dreaming about my girlfriend again:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you dreaming about my girlfriend again:mad:

All my witty replies would involve things that could offend your sense of honour, as such I will simple say this:

[Baqualin]

All my witty replies would involve things that could offend your sense of honour, as such I will simple say this:

I knew it,:D she likes hot girls TOO