The All South East Asian Full Contact Fights from the late 50's, 60's and 70's.

[banditshaw]

Does anybody have any stories, info, footage, or winners lists from these tournaments held?
I have heard there were fights between different Kung Fu styles and even fights with Thai Boxers that were all full contact and got quite bloody at times.

I think Master Chan Sau Chung produced some fighters that won in those events.

Any info would be appreciated.

Cheers.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.liuhopafa.com/fight11.JPG

Wai Lun choi fighting in one of these, he says on his page he fought for 4 days :eek:

Tat Mau Wong also fought in some, had a pic or two of them in an old article

[banditshaw]

Cool link. Thanks.

It seems a shame there isn't a lot of footage of these fights around. It could be a great learning tool for some to see how CMA's fought in that arena.

[lkfmdc]

I've seen old 8 mm black and white footage of it, but doubt it is commercially available

if you do variations on the name in google you'll find several short accounts by people like Lai Hung, and even this crazy fighitng tai chi guy from HK :D

[banditshaw]

Found this on Lai Hung.

http://www.buksing.com/history/lai_hung/l_h_2.html

[lkfmdc]

brief mention in this tai chi article

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/1979v3n10_1.html

fukien white crane article

http://www.usadojo.com/styles/about-shaolin-white-crane-kung-fu.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

brief mention in this tai chi article

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/1979v3n10_1.html

fukien white crane article

http://www.usadojo.com/styles/about-shaolin-white-crane-kung-fu.htm

I have Bernards Book on White Crane, Fukien Flying Crane to be exact.
Not bad at all, a good read.

[Baqualin]

brief mention in this tai chi article

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/1979v3n10_1.html

fukien white crane article

http://www.usadojo.com/styles/about-shaolin-white-crane-kung-fu.htm

Very nice!!!! Great thread so-far.
BQ

[Baqualin]

I have Bernards Book on White Crane, Fukien Flying Crane to be exact.
Not bad at all, a good read.

SJ....a little off subject....you posted a few vid,s of some really good Tai Chi combat apps a couple of months ago....could you repost them....can't remember what thread they were on....getting old:)
BQ

[sanjuro_ronin]

SJ....a little off subject....you posted a few vid,s of some really good Tai Chi combat apps a couple of months ago....could you repost them....can't remember what thread they were on....getting old:)
BQ

Ah dude, I can't remember which ones you are referring too, can you give me an idea of what was on them?

[Baqualin]

Ah dude, I can't remember which ones you are referring too, can you give me an idea of what was on them?

I think it was on the Tai Chi thread....they were vid.'s from the UK and showed real combat apps for various postures from the Yang form. I really liked them....they were very modern and straight to the point.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think it was on the Tai Chi thread....they were vid.'s from the UK and showed real combat apps for various postures from the Yang form. I really liked them....they were very modern and straight to the point.

This one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqVMKXf4ogw

[Baqualin]

This one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqVMKXf4ogw

YES Thanks!!! When the internal students go into the external classes and spar they get their a$$es kicked.....I'm working with them to turn the tables...a couple are starting to get it...I've got them wedging.

[sanjuro_ronin]

YES Thanks!!! When the internal students go into the external classes and spar they get their a$$es kicked.....I'm working with them to turn the tables...a couple are starting to get it...I've got them wedging.

The main reason that "internal" ( no such thing by the way) students get their asses hand to them is because they tend NOT to train their fighting principles in a fighting way.
Taiji has some of the best power production for short distance strikes, but when was the last time you saw a taiji person doing them VS a bag, much less another fighter?
Then how do they expect to be able to them for real?

[lkfmdc]

The main reason that "internal" ( no such thing by the way) students get their asses hand to them is because they tend NOT to train their fighting principles in a fighting way.
Taiji has some of the best power production for short distance strikes, but when was the last time you saw a taiji person doing them VS a bag, much less another fighter?
Then how do they expect to be able to them for real?

the label "internal" was the worst thing to ever happen to those arts, because in practice their techniques are good striking and good grappling, but since they seldom train realistically anymore, much of it is being lost (or is lost totally)

[sanjuro_ronin]

YES Thanks!!! When the internal students go into the external classes and spar they get their a$$es kicked.....I'm working with them to turn the tables...a couple are starting to get it...I've got them wedging.

Here is another :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1OOPdkiPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jy9CxSb_1M&feature=related

[Baqualin]

the label "internal" was the worst thing to ever happen to those arts, because in practice their techniques are good striking and good grappling, but since they seldom train realistically anymore, much of it is being lost (or is lost totally)

I understand that, just using the universal label. I agree! In the 70's at my school we were taught that way... our push hands are all about strikes, sweeps,locks, kicks, throws, and some grappling....that's all I knew.......it has been really frustrating lately when I play hands with other Tai Chi players outside of our school and they tell me I'm not using real Tai Chi because I do all of the above. All they want to do is push and say if you push somebody down enough they will get frustrated and quit.....I'm thinking no, their going to get pi$$ed off and get up and kill you. I also tell them that pushing is fine until someone slaps the sh!t out of you, then what are you going to do. It's crazy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Push hands, like Chi Sao in WC, is in many ways the main problem.

A drill that was used to develop a certain skill set or attribute(s) becomes the "end all" of a system in terms of functional training.
Just sad.

[lkfmdc]

Push hands, like Chi Sao in WC, is in many ways the main problem.

A drill that was used to develop a certain skill set or attribute(s) becomes the "end all" of a system in terms of functional training.
Just sad.

Told this a few times before

Guang Yi Ren is Chen Xiaowang's rep in NYC. We ar friends with one of his students. They have video tape of the push hands competitions they do at Chen village

IT IS WRESTLING

it is not the touchy feely no force crap you see over here

a US based "push hands champion" went to Chen village and asked to push, he was picked up in a body lock and thrown, he told them they weren't doing tai chi push hands :rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Here is another :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1OOPdkiPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jy9CxSb_1M&feature=related

Those are more familiar.....I've been practicing Chen for around 10 years now and it's my primary focus (or should I say my favorite) along with Baqua (30 years here). Not saying I'm good...it's just a big part of my life.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Told this a few times before

Guang Yi Ren is Chen Xiaowang's rep in NYC. We ar friends with one of his students. They have video tape of the push hands competitions they do at Chen village

IT IS WRESTLING

it is not the touchy feely no force crap you see over here

a US based "push hands champion" went to Chen village and asked to push, he was picked up in a body lock and thrown, he told them they weren't doing tai chi push hands :rolleyes:

I agree that push hands SHOULD turn into clinch wrestling, I mean, why shouldn't it and how can it not in a functional way?

The problem is the lack of "aftermath" of "clinch wrestling" within taiji training (typically).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those are more familiar.....I've been practicing Chen for around 10 years now and it's my primary focus (or should I say my favorite) along with Baqua (30 years here). Not saying I'm good...it's just a big part of my life.

Chen for 10 years too :)

[lkfmdc]

I agree that push hands SHOULD turn into clinch wrestling, I mean, why shouldn't it and how can it not in a functional way?

The problem is the lack of "aftermath" of "clinch wrestling" within taiji training (typically).

there is something to be said for throwing them down hard and running away (or stomping on their head)

I think in the grand scheme, ground work must be intergrated, but I can see where they are coming from

to me, much of Tai Chi is wrestling, we know wrestling works, but as a friend said to me recently "only the Chinese could take wrestling and make it a non functional TMA" :D

[Baqualin]

Told this a few times before

Guang Yi Ren is Chen Xiaowang's rep in NYC. We ar friends with one of his students. They have video tape of the push hands competitions they do at Chen village

IT IS WRESTLING

it is not the touchy feely no force crap you see over here

a US based "push hands champion" went to Chen village and asked to push, he was picked up in a body lock and thrown, he told them they weren't doing tai chi push hands :rolleyes:

Two names I respect the most.....been to a Chen Xiaowang workshop and plan to attend more! he's awesome...no BS
Our school went to Chen village in 98 and a couple of our masters pushed with a couple of theirs...your right it was no patty cake...we left with a lot of mutual respect.

[Baqualin]

there is something to be said for throwing them down hard and running away (or stomping on their head)

I think in the grand scheme, ground work must be intergrated, but I can see where they are coming from

to me, much of Tai Chi is wrestling, we know wrestling works, but as a friend said to me recently "only the Chinese could take wrestling and make it a non functional TMA" :D

Sometimes I don't understand why people get so upset with you....yes you can be a D!ck...but you really call it like it is;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Chen for 10 years too :)

Yeah I love it.....Tai Chi / Baqua / Hsingi / Iron Bone....that's all I do anymore, I figure that's all I need to keep me busy at my age. Really have a lot of respect for Dale & Dr. Painter Too.
BQ

[lkfmdc]

Sometimes I don't understand why people get so upset with you....yes you can be a D!ck...but you really call it like it is;)
BQ

one bolded answers the other ;)

[jmd161]

Does anybody have any stories, info, footage, or winners lists from these tournaments held?
I have heard there were fights between different Kung Fu styles and even fights with Thai Boxers that were all full contact and got quite bloody at times.

I think Master Chan Sau Chung produced some fighters that won in those events.

Any info would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Just so happens I spoke to my sifu about this subject, just last week. He said not as many fighters attended this event as you may think. He said yes there were some schools there and some Thai Boxers, but, not the level of experience you would expect to see at a event of that size.

He used an actor winning one yr as proof the competition was not the greatest in his opinion.

jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

He used an actor winning one yr as proof the competition was not the greatest in his opinion.



the "actor" he is talking about was a professional fighter in Asia, winning fights in Japan and Thailand as well, he became an actor AFTER being a fighter!

[jmd161]

the "actor" he is talking about was a professional fighter in Asia, winning fights in Japan and Thailand as well, he became an actor AFTER being a fighter!

I assume you're speaking of Chan Sau Chung's student?


jeff:)

[banditshaw]

If I'm not mistaken the actor was Chen Kuan Tai.

He always looked like he knew what he was doing in the movies that's for sure.:D

[Pork Chop]

the "actor" he is talking about was a professional fighter in Asia, winning fights in Japan and Thailand as well, he became an actor AFTER being a fighter!

chen kwan tai's my favorite. :)


remember my first (and only) time trying to do push hands in a tournament in the states (had done it in japan a bit with a sister school).
i got matched up with a friend of mine from the shuai chiao school, with a lot of height and reach on me.
when i found out it was fixed foot position, i was like "wtf :confused: ?"
he won the match by blasting me with palm strikes in my chest, while i was stuck outside of my range.
i kept looking at the judge to do something.
kinda lost my cool afterward, but once i calmed down i realized that it wasn't really a game i wanted to get good at.

[jmd161]

If I'm not mistaken the actor was Chen Kuan Tai.

He always looked like he knew what he was doing in the movies that's for sure.:D

I don't get the feeling he was too impressed with his skill. I'm not trying to start a debate over it, It's just the feeling I got from him. He knows Chan Sau Chung and according to him my sigung knew Kan Tak Hoi. Apparently Kan Tok Hoi was very much the real deal and Chan Sau Chung while he moves good, his skill level is no where near that of his sifu.


jeff:)

[taai gihk yahn]

the label "internal" was the worst thing to ever happen to those arts, because in practice their techniques are good striking and good grappling, but since they seldom train realistically anymore, much of it is being lost (or is lost totally)
it was an attempt by some of the folks at the end of the 19th cen. to carve out a niche for a more "gentlemanly" practice of kung fu (Yang Lu Chan, Sun Lu Tang, etc. - although not to say that they couldn't fight themselves...) - meaning that if you want upper-middle and royalty class peeps to come train with you (you know, the ones with the $$$), you have to sell them on the idea that they can learn to be whirlwinds of death without getting the trim of their robes soiled (hence, the gentrification of taiji by Mr. Yang: stomping, low spinning sweeps, stomping kicks and fine details that would relate to actual trapping range skill - all buh-bye); then, all you then have to do is come up with a series of arguments as to why a TRUE internal practitioner doesn't have to fight to prove his skill, and you're home free!


I agree that push hands SHOULD turn into clinch wrestling, I mean, why shouldn't it and how can it not in a functional way?
if you check out my friend's school here, that's exactly what does happen:
http://www.taichili.com/training_for_tournament_competit.htm


to me, much of Tai Chi is wrestling, we know wrestling works, but as a friend said to me recently "only the Chinese could take wrestling and make it a non functional TMA" :D
if you look at "the form" from a grappling perspective, it starts to make a lot more sense...

[lkfmdc]

If I'm not mistaken the actor was Chen Kuan Tai.

He always looked like he knew what he was doing in the movies that's for sure.:D

I was thinking of Chan Wai Man, he won the second of those south east asian cups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg0wfyACzCQ

[Violent Designs]

Does anybody have any stories, info, footage, or winners lists from these tournaments held?
I have heard there were fights between different Kung Fu styles and even fights with Thai Boxers that were all full contact and got quite bloody at times.

I think Master Chan Sau Chung produced some fighters that won in those events.

Any info would be appreciated.

Cheers.

I want to interview sifu Tat Wong maybe get some article on these fights?

That would be hella sick.

[Eddie]

I don't get the feeling he was too impressed with his skill. I'm not trying to start a debate over it, It's just the feeling I got from him. He knows Chan Sau Chung and according to him my sigung knew Kan Tak Hoi. Apparently Kan Tok Hoi was very much the real deal and Chan Sau Chung while he moves good, his skill level is no where near that of his sifu.


jeff:)


You sure know how to offend people don’t you. 99% Of the kung fu people out there study crap, and Chan Koon Tai was just an actor who happened to have won the fight – that proving the event wasn’t so good?

Your sifu should perhaps contact the TSPG guys in HK and Canada and tell them, what he thought about them. See how they react? You do know that the TSPG gym in HK still to this day produce some pro MT fighters. They also follow a very modern approach in fighting, not unlike many of the US gyms.

I met Chan Koon Tai, Lau Gar Fai and a few other Asian movie stars, and I must say, I was pretty intimidated by CKT’s presence. He’s definitely not just an actor.

Just btw, who is your sifu?

[jmd161]

You sure know how to offend people don’t you. 99% Of the kung fu people out there study crap, and Chan Koon Tai was just an actor who happened to have won the fight – that proving the event wasn’t so good?

Your sifu should perhaps contact the TSPG guys in HK and Canada and tell them, what he thought about them. See how they react? You do know that the TSPG gym in HK still to this day produce some pro MT fighters. They also follow a very modern approach in fighting, not unlike many of the US gyms.

I met Chan Koon Tai, Lau Gar Fai and a few other Asian movie stars, and I must say, I was pretty intimidated by CKT’s presence. He’s definitely not just an actor.

Just btw, who is your sifu?

Eddie,

Let me say this...

I don't always post on this forum, but, I do read a lot of the post here. I've always respected your post and have never had a problem with you. I might not always use the right words or get across the point I was trying to make, I'm Human I make mistakes...It seems all you want to do is nit pick and point out negative or what you take as negative attacks. There are many ways to take a post since you can't always tell intent from words on a page.

The fact that you look to go negative in everything I post might just show you have problems with how you see the world. I said that Chan Sau Chung didn't move as well as his sifu, that was someones opinion. I'm sure Chan Sau Chung would more than likely say the same himself. My sifu while amazing to those who know him admits he is not 1% of what his sifu Grandmaster Wong Cheung was.

I wrote a few peoples opinion... every person has an opinion be it justified or not. I mentioned what my sifu said I never mentioned the persons name or style. You assumed I was talking about a student of Chan Sau Chung like many. I don't know how many people were actors that competed just from the post here I'd say there were more than one.

You need to ask questions before you assume or jump on the negative band wagon all the time with my post. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Chan Sau Chung and have admitted that on this and many other forums across the net. If you feel that I'm wrong in my using percentages...why not spend more time proving me wrong than just starting petty arguments?!?!

Or better yet bring something useful to the table...

jeff:)

[Shaolindynasty]

here is some video of chen style sifu chen bing at a mma gym doing clich work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u25XHzlZu9Q

You definatly don't see this in most taiji practice

[lkfmdc]

here is some video of chen style sifu chen bing at a mma gym doing clich work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u25XHzlZu9Q

You definatly don't see this in most taiji practice

can view at the gym but if it is the footage shot in a cage, yup, not your typical tai chi (but yet probably how it was originally done!)

[taai gihk yahn]

can view at the gym but if it is the footage shot in a cage, yup, not your typical tai chi (but yet probably how it was originally done!)

yup; basically how to grapple / throw in the clinch: meaning that, like pretty much everything else, taiji emphasizes certain skill sets over others; end of story

[lkfmdc]

Taai Gihk Yaan

YOUR the best ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am still not 100% convinced that Taiji is more a "grappling based" system...

It lacks the typical grappling based training methods, I mean, outside of Push hands, what grappling drills do you have in Taiji?

[lkfmdc]

I am still not 100% convinced that Taiji is more a "grappling based" system...

It lacks the typical grappling based training methods, I mean, outside of Push hands, what grappling drills do you have in Taiji?

but in chen village, the way they do push hands is teh way wrestlers wrestle (wreally)

but more like Greco Roman, very upright, as opposed to free style

[sanjuro_ronin]

but in chen village, the way they do push hands is teh way wrestlers wrestle (wreally)

but more like Greco Roman, very upright, as opposed to free style

I know, but that is only ONE drill of many. plus the core of Taiji is the forms, not somethign typical of grappling systems where the core is, well, grappling.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am still not 100% convinced that Taiji is more a "grappling based" system...

It lacks the typical grappling based training methods, I mean, outside of Push hands, what grappling drills do you have in Taiji?

you are right, that it lacks drills to that effect - my belief is that probably they were "sanitized" out by YLC - remember that the majority of taiji out there was propagated through a guy who basically observed silently on the sidelines as a servant in the Chen household and then went to Beijing to teach the upper-class twits how to be whirlwinds of martial death without having to get the hems of their Mandarin robes dusty...

one bit of "evidence" is that if you look at the form and run the apps as grappling moves versus trapping / striking ones, they "work" better...IMPE...which is all that really matters anyway...

[taai gihk yahn]

Taai Gihk Yaan

YOUR the best ;)

yes, I am...:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

you are right, that it lacks drills to that effect - my belief is that probably they were "sanitized" out by YLC - remember that the majority of taiji out there was propagated through a guy who basically observed silently on the sidelines as a servant in the Chen household and then went to Beijing to teach the upper-class twits how to be whirlwinds of martial death without having to get the hems of their Mandarin robes dusty...

one bit of "evidence" is that if you look at the form and run the apps as grappling moves versus trapping / striking ones, they "work" better...IMPE...which is all that really matters anyway...

Point made.

[taai gihk yahn]

Point made.

it's Miller time!

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's Miller time!

Don't you love it when logic and common sense are recognized?

[lkfmdc]

I know, but that is only ONE drill of many. plus the core of Taiji is the forms, not somethign typical of grappling systems where the core is, well, grappling.

well, only the Chinese can take a functional thing like grappling and make it a static traditional martial arts, it's a skill, REALLY! :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, only the Chinese can take a functional thing like grappling and make it a static traditional martial arts, it's a skill, REALLY! :p

So you guys don't agree with the likes of Erle and some others that view taiji as a striking system?

[taai gihk yahn]

well, only the Chinese can take a functional thing like grappling and make it a static traditional martial arts, it's a skill, REALLY! :p

THERE'S your "authentic" kung fu!

[taai gihk yahn]

So you guys don't agree with the likes of Erle and some others that view taiji as a striking system?

it definitely has some striking stuff in it, mostly "whipping" type open hand stuff (despite it being taiji QUAN, oddly enough); I think that in Chen Village, they had a plethora (:eek:) of things more "punch / kick" oriented available to train, whereas the taiji was more specific to grappling scenarios; again, what the vast majority of peeps know as taiji comes through what amounts to a non-sanctioned source...

[sanjuro_ronin]

it definitely has some striking stuff in it, mostly "whipping" type open hand stuff (despite it being taiji QUAN, oddly enough); I think that in Chen Village, they had a plethora (:eek:) of things more "punch / kick" oriented available to train, whereas the taiji was more specific to grappling scenarios; again, what the vast majority of peeps know as taiji comes through what amounts to a non-sanctioned source...

My Chen Taiji teacher always aid that because of my striking as was better suited for Pau Chui, probably something there...;)

[bawang]

many whipping circular movements are changes just to make form more beautiful
a lot are straight palm stike

[lkfmdc]

I believe that originally Tai Chi was like Cilnem (Mongolian form of wrestling for combat, ie martial art, as opposed to entertainment and festivals) where striking is intergral part of method, similiar to "Sumai" as well (forerunner of Sumo).

Of course you practice punches, slaps, shouldering and kicks with your wrestling... and of course, if you want to teach people who don't want close contact with anotehr human being you stress that striking part, IN THE AIR



it definitely has some striking stuff in it, mostly "whipping" type open hand stuff (despite it being taiji QUAN, oddly enough); I think that in Chen Village, they had a plethora (:eek:) of things more "punch / kick" oriented available to train, whereas the taiji was more specific to grappling scenarios; again, what the vast majority of peeps know as taiji comes through what amounts to a non-sanctioned source...

[Baqualin]

My Chen Taiji teacher always aid that because of my striking as was better suited for Pau Chui, probably something there...;)

Chen is the real Tai Chi.....the rest are pu$$y fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chen is the real Tai Chi.....the rest are pu$$y fu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnhE0B-ro9U

Indeed...

[David Jamieson]

It was the bolding that really threw me so...


You're = YOU ARE

Your = yours as in "that is yours" or "is that your foot in your mouth?" or "Is that your set of gkk shoes?"

Yore = The timeline some kungfu people think on.

Yor = The hunter from the future a b rated film.

thank you
that is all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was the bolding that really threw me so...


You're = YOU ARE

Your = yours as in "that is yours" or "is that your foot in your mouth?" or "Is that your set of gkk shoes?"

Yore = The timeline some kungfu people think on.

Yor = The hunter from the future a b rated film.

thank you
that is all.

You use of GKK has been noted.

[David Jamieson]

You use of GKK has been noted.

Good thing too because these shoes are brand new!

[taai gihk yahn]

r "Is that your set of gkk shoes?"

ROFLMAO!

:)


that is, it's GKK, NOT gkk


:mad:

[Liokault]

Dan Docherty talks about the South east Asian thing a bit here:

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/tai_chi_gladiator.html

Going back to training methods, how did you manage to adapt Tai Chi for competition fighting and how did the training you used for competition fighting differ from ordinary Tai Chi training?


The contests which I took part in were fought on raised platforms, with no ropes. Full contact was allowed to any part of the body except the groin. Throwing, punching, kicking, knee, elbow and head butting techniques were all perfectly legal. Each fight was scheduled for 3 two minute rounds with one minute between each round. The object was to either stop your opponent or outpoint him. In this type of contest you cannot afford to just wait for your opponent to attack as time is strictly limited. Furthermore, when we fought in the South East Asian Martial Arts Contests representing Hong Kong you must consider that our opponents were highly trained champions representing their own countries and their own individual styles. Fitness and power therefore are vital in this type of competition. Also to become champion you must expect to fight a number of times within a few days.


In both the 1976 and the 1980 South East Asian Martial Arts contests I and one fellow student were the only Tai Chi fighters, not just in the Hong Kong team, but in the whole competition. In our training we used the type of gloves and rules that corresponded with those of the contest and only practised techniques, including throws, that were practical with those gloves on. When sparring one would adopt the methods of other styles such as White Crane, Thai Boxing, Choi Li Fat etc., while the other would counter. We also did a lot of Tai Chi stamina and internal strength training. Between times we'd do the hand form to balance the training and help massage our aching limbs. I also used to practise pushing hands and this came in useful when throwing an opponent from the platform.


How useful did you find the four years' Karate training you'd done?


It wasn't that helpful. The first time I did full contact sparring - with a much smaller senior student, I got whacked in the face so hard that my nose was pouring with blood. My automatic reaction was to turn round to Cheng Tin-hung expecting him to stop the fight and warn my opponent. Instead I got hit again.


What differences did you find between the 1976 and the 1980 South East Asian Martial Arts Championships?


In 1976 I was very raw, with only one year of Tai Chi behind me and so my defence in particular was not that well developed. That was also a particularly vicious competition because the gloves we used were like driving gloves with the fingertips cut off. In my first fight against a hard stylist from Malaysia I got two black eyes a bleeding nose, puffed lips and heavy bruising from the left hip down to the foot from Thai Boxing kicks. My left foot was so bad I couldn't get a shoe on and I had to have a tetanus shot followed by herbal mudpacks to reduce the swelling. I won the fight by the way! Four days later I stopped my next opponent as well, but lost on points the day after in the final of the Heavyweight division, to Lohandran of Malaysia and Chi Ke Chuan. He was fully fit as he'd only had to fight one contest lasting one round before the final. I felt really frustrated because I was sure I could have taken him if I'd been uninjured.


The next South East Asian Martial Arts Championships was held In Malaysia in 1980. This time we used Thai Boxing gloves. In fact the Malaysians had been training with Thai Boxers and they had a top Thai Boxing coach as one of the corner men for their fighters. This time there was a Superheavyweight Open Weight category for those over 220lbs. I weighed around 190lbs., but, against my teacher's advice, I opted to step up two weight categories to fight in this division as I figured there would be more 'face' to gain and in any case I'd be faster than my opponents. In my first the fight against Roy Pink of England and Five Ancestors, who weighed over 300lbs., I knocked him out in the first round. Then I was in the final against my old friend, Mr. Lohandran. I beat him on points in front of his home crowd in Kuala Lumpur. The only other Hong Kong boy to emerge as a champion was my fellow student, Tong Chi-kin who won the Middleweight title. After all that, I decided not to fight in competition again.


Why would a well-educated man like yourself take part in this kind of bloodbath?


I felt that the only way to test the system and to have credibility as a practitioner of the system was to fight the best people from other styles in full contact competition. Apart from that my teacher asked me to fight . . . and I do come from Glasgow.

There is a film of Dan knocking Roy Pink out, I think you can but it from Neil Rosak of Renessance Tai Chi....its only about 20 seconds of grainy footage.

[KC Elbows]

I know, but that is only ONE drill of many. plus the core of Taiji is the forms, not somethign typical of grappling systems where the core is, well, grappling.

The core of any system is the moves that make it up, it's fighting methodology.

Now, for many, the core of their training methodology is in forms. However, this does not mean that using the forms that way actually equates to expressing the fighting methodology of the system better, it doesn't. The moves require the context of another person, so individual practice alone cannot do it.

I know I'm not saying anything you don't know, merely pointing out that those who make the form the sole center of their training methodology do not necessarily express a system's fighting methodology as reliably as those who make the actual moves, which cannot be actual without an additional practitioner, usable, imo.

Those who seem best able to use taiji use a good amount of throws, but Chinese styles are not big on specialization(reducing jujitsu to judo, et al), so it would be a bit of an aberration for taiji to be specifically a throwing style, not to mention a number of the forms clearly are not solely a throwing catalog. It also seems like a large number of those who train taiji more realistically might make little of the distinction between striking and throwing, and there are fairly obvious strikes in a lot of taiji forms.

Let's say you made a functional style that largely encapsulated all the strikes of boxing and half the throws of judo. That style's form would entirely seem to be a throwing set, having "only a handful" of strikes and many many throws. If one guy practiced only that form, while someone else practiced only in using it's components with a partner, the second guy would more than likely end up being the truer expression of the style, not the first, and the expression might not mean more throws would occur than strikes, in fact, it might be just the opposite, but the throwing and striking would be a fair representation of the methodology that went into the selection of techniques.

Whether taiji is a throwing style and whether a lot of people practice it as one are not necessarily the same question. But, it is rather unlikely, given the culture it came from, that is solely a throwing style.

[SaekSan]

Don't know if this is of any interest, but here's some photos of the SEA tournaments along with other Kuoshu related pics:

http://www.zykfa.org/gallery/taiganau

[banditshaw]

Cool pics. Thanks for sharing those.

[Eric Olson]

I want to interview sifu Tat Wong maybe get some article on these fights?

That would be hella sick.

Hey Miluo, how's school going?

[Eric Olson]

Here's the "secret" of internal...shhhh....don't tell anyone.

-Linear movement=stiff movement=inefficient movement
-Round movement=relaxed movement=efficient movement

Thus,

-Whoever is the roundest is the most efficient in their movement
-Internal=very round in all planes of motion, hence very efficient

Rinse, lather, repeat....

[Eric Olson]

Oops almost forgot...

-Internal training starts with the principles of long, soft and round....as you become more advanced it is still long soft and round but its less obvious to the untrained eye.

-But you have to go through the first part of the training or you will end up stiff...no cialis required.

EO

[banditshaw]

Found this footage from the 80's on youtube. Anyone knowing who the one guy is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6aUqvqIDB8

[cerebus]

I've been wondering about that as well. I recognize some of the people in it actually. Near the end, there's the guy who quits and walks back to his corner, well the cornerman with the mustache who seems to be shooing him back into the ring with a towel is Master Giuseppe Bon of Vicenza Italy and behind him, the Korean in the tank top is Master Shin Dae Woung, the head coach of the Italian team. This was from the 1986 World Kuoshu tournament in Taiwan.

But there are also scenes interspersed from some bare-knuckle tournament as well. Not sure what tournament that was.

[kfman5F]

http://crane.50megs.com/index6d.htm