How real traditional kung fu was taught?

[jmd161]

The more you learn about CMA the more you realize you don't know. You hear and see so many different things... you don't know what is truth or fiction anymore. The more I train with my sifu, who is very traditional. The more I see the way we've come to visualize CMA and it's training methods are completely wrong.

In 99% of CMA schools the students are taught forms and very little time, if any, is spent on actual application. If any sparring is done, it's usually a badly taught half ass basic kick boxing method. Many people some how believe that learning this way is traditional and one day they will some how see everything clearly.:rolleyes:

When you look at today's kung fu schools you see two separate methods being taught. In the majority of schools you see the forms with little application, and then there's the schools that teach Sanshou. Of course then comes the debate on who's traditional the forms collectors or the sanshou people?:confused:

The truth of the matter is they're both traditional, but lacking in certain areas. In speaking with old timers from Hong Kong and China traditional CMA is Sanshou and forms taught together, but, only after you've learned some Sanshou to defend yourself. In today's CMA they openly teach you forms but offer no substance after you learn a form. Usually after learning one form you're pushed to start learning the next form and so on.

This brings up a question my sifu asked me.

" People want to make lots of money off teaching Chinese martial arts, but they choose to teach crap...Why Not teach the real thing and show it actually works and make even more money?"

Good question, I can't seem to come up with a good answer though...:confused:


jeff:)

[banditshaw]

I think the majority of people that flock to CMA's don't want to do the hard work and would rather be fed the fantasyland bullcrap. As soon as these peeps get smacked in the face, thrown around, get bruised ego's and limbs...... they quit. It seems they would rather play patty cake and prance around in pajamas.
The movies and the Kung Fu Tv show have a lot to do with some of the false myths propagated.

[Drake]

I'd say it's hard to use terms like "majority" and "99%" without some real research. Generalizations are useless. What styles have been known to teach impractical methods? How long has this been going on? What determines if a technique is useless, if it fails in one scenario? Is brawling an effective way of teaching if it's the majority of the learning? Do forms have a place in training, and if so, are thye over/underutilized?

Let's try and be a bit more systematic in our assessments.

[jmd161]

I'd say it's hard to use terms like "majority" and "99%" without some real research. Generalizations are useless. What styles have been known to teach impractical methods? How long has this been going on? What determines if a technique is useless, if it fails in one scenario? Is brawling an effective way of teaching if it's the majority of the learning? Do forms have a place in training, and if so, are thye over/underutilized?

Let's try and be a bit more systematic in our assessments.


Are you serious?

Or is this just an attempt to debate for the sake of debating?:confused:


Yes I was very general in my post, If you've been involved in CMA I don't really have to be more forth coming because you would know exactly where I'm coming from. If you've read any martial arts forums you'd understand where I'm coming from as well....

I obviously want to discuss this... but, I don't want to write a two page post on the same stuff that has been covered on every forum already either. I'm sure many here will know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry If you don't, which means you couldn't really participate in this discussion anyway...



jeff:)

[WinterPalm]

You have to consider that many people are doing just what you're suggesting: and here on this forum they get ragged on for not being TCMA enough.

[YouKnowWho]

Today people think about TCMA training is not the true TCMA training. The true TCMA training are:

- Drill "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years.
- Go to the woods and use your shoulder dropping to break 1,000 tree branches.
- Set up a fence pole and use your feet to sweep it until it's out of the ground.
- Crack on steel chain until the spark come out of it.
- ...

[jmd161]

You have to consider that many people are doing just what you're suggesting: and here on this forum they get ragged on for not being TCMA enough.


You also have to take into account, who's doing the ragging!


You have many people on forums that only experience of martial arts, is the movies they've seen and web pages they've read:rolleyes:

In my experience I have seen schools that do this, but they are few and far between. I work in the airline Industry, so it allows me to travel and meet many a martial artist, and visit many different schools.


jeff:)

[jmd161]

I commend Mr. Ross on what he is doing with teaching fighting and Sanda. I want to know why aren't more doing this, and why isn't Mr. Ross taking some of his top fighters and now teaching them the forms, so they have a better understanding of the forms and techniques?


I could very well be wrong, and Mr. Ross might already be doing this...


I really feel most schools don't do this because the skills and techniques have already been lost. If you learn from someone that has never fought and they learned from someone who never fought...How could they teach you to fight?

Who knows, maybe my sifu has it all wrong and is breaking the trend... He always teaches to evolve and keep testing the art and make changes where needed. According to him this is traditional and the exact way his sifu taught him. In creating Hak Fu Mun So Hak Fu took the knowledge of 17 different styles of kung fu and created the 5 original forms. Later At his school in Canton he taught well over 50 forms. When Grandmaster Wong Cheung died in 1989 Hak Fu Mun had over 100 forms.

I think when the fighting stopped and people tried to keep things secret they misunderstood what keeping secret meant. It didn't mean to not test or share.... since most styles where created from the blending of different styles and meeting of masters.

Again, I could be completely wrong too....


jeff:)

[TenTigers]

Forms were taught last and usually only to lineage bearors in many cases.(Unless they were specific training sets designed to develop structure, breath, power, etc.(sam bo ging, saamjien, siu-lim tau, etc)
There was an interview with a descendant of Yang Lu-Chan, who said that the form wasn't taught at all. Just applications, push hands and fighting. The short sequences(single whip, brush knee, etc) practiced later, and the form wasn't taught until it was taught to the public.

Here's a newsflash-people LIKE hitting things.
Bag drills are fun, and a great workout. People LIKE putting on handwraps, bag gloves and hitting the pads. They feel that they are developing real skills.(they also like buying them. Owning fight gear is like owning a gun or something. It's empowering.)
They ENJOY sparring-in a safe enviornment, taught in a methodical manner.
It develops confidense-which is why they came in the first place.

[jmd161]

Forms were taught last and usually only to lineage bearors in many cases.(Unless they were specific training sets designed to develop structure, breath, power, etc.(sam bo ging, saamjien, siu-lim tau, etc)

This I can believe because this is exactly what my sifu does. We learn a lot of techniques from all the forms, but we rarely learn an actual form until he feels you're ready. By the time you actually learn a form you've already drilled many of the techniques hundreds of times already. I've also come to realize in actual fighting systems there is not much hidden with in the forms like many lead you to believe. If anything the technique might just be used in a different manner in the form.





jeff:)

[Shaolin of Old]

What do you think Traditional kung fu would look like if trained propery like it used to be? Is what wong kiew kit doing right? i dont think it is but just curious, in actual combat what would it look like would it be similar to modern day sanda or totally different? Just wondering what your opinion is if you have seen some real kung fu schools? I think it certainly would be with what i have seen but just curious what you think traditional kung fu would look like in sparring.

[jmd161]

What do you think Traditional kung fu would look like if trained propery like it used to be? Is what wong kiew kit doing right? i dont think it is but just curious, in actual combat what would it look like would it be similar to modern day sanda or totally different? Just wondering what your opinion is if you have seen some real kung fu schools? I think it certainly would be with what i have seen but just curious what you think traditional kung fu would look like in sparring.

I've said before I think actual CMA sparring and fighting would look a lot like MMA fights, but with some variations of course. WHEN WE MOVE YOU SEE WHAT WE ARE DOING THERE'S NO HIDDEN SECRET TECHNIQUE. sorry I hit the caps button by mistake. You see the difference in the movement and the foot work. You see us stepping in and locking the legs or attacking the legs while our hands are in use.

One of my training brothers recently went to a MMA gym here in Miami and held his own against two guys both over 6'2' he's 5'7' and over 200 he's about 140 even though the guys turned out to be jerks and ruptured his ear drum. When you fight like you train the body doesn't need to result to old bad habits or bad basic lvl kick boxing.

I don't think what Wong Kiew kit does is right either, but, that's just my opinion. You fight in what works for you not some pre-fashioned stance. Just my .02 cents


jeff:)

[Shaolin of Old]

I've said before I think actual CMA sparring and fighting would look a lot like MMA fights, but with some variations of course. WHEN WE MOVE YOU SEE WHAT WE ARE DOING THERE'S NO HIDDEN SECRET TECHNIQUE. sorry I hit the caps button by mistake. You see the difference in the movement and the foot work. You see us stepping in and locking the legs or attacking the legs while our hands are in use.

One of my training brothers recently went to a MMA gym here in Miami and held his own against two guys both over 6'2' he's 5'7' and over 200 he's about 140 even though the guys turned out to be jerks and ruptured his ear drum. When you fight like you train the body doesn't need to result to old bad habits or bad basic lvl kick boxing.

I don't think what Wong Kiew kit does is right either, but, that's just my opinion. You fight in what works for you not some pre-fashioned stance. Just my .02 cents


jeff:)

Yeah i think you make a valid point, its an interesting one to say the least. Im thinking more we engage the more our punches and kicks look like any other however the principles and intent can be different hence the different footwork or movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM

Bruce lee above sparring, of course he wasn't traditional but he has a unique way of doing things compared to your general kickboxer, how similar or different is traditional kung fu?

[jmd161]

Yeah i think you make a valid point, its an interesting one to say the least. Im thinking more we engage the more our punches and kicks look like any other however the principles and intent can be different hence the different footwork or movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM

Bruce lee above sparring, of course he wasn't traditional but he has a unique way of doing things compared to your general kickboxer, how similar or different is traditional kung fu?

In looking at that video we are much different, but it was more of a demo in my opinion than actual sparring. I train Black Tiger we are very aggressive and never really use kicks above the waist. We attack the legs relentlessly while striking and we rarely take steps backwards. We attack in coming attacks so speed and power is of the impotence. In Black Tiger defense is offense so we block by striking very rarely will you see an attempt to block. Once we commit to attack we don't play that strike and wait game, we keep coming.

My sifu knew Bruce in Hong Kong and says Bruce wasn't very good when he left HK. He says that Bruce did get much better and what made the difference was his learning to effectively use his short power.

jeff:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I commend Mr. Ross on what he is doing with teaching fighting and Sanda. I want to know why aren't more doing this, and why isn't Mr. Ross taking some of his top fighters and now teaching them the forms, so they have a better understanding of the forms and techniques?


I could very well be wrong, and Mr. Ross might already be doing this...


I really feel most schools don't do this because the skills and techniques have already been lost. If you learn from someone that has never fought and they learned from someone who never fought...How could they teach you to fight?

Who knows, maybe my sifu has it all wrong and is breaking the trend... He always teaches to evolve and keep testing the art and make changes where needed. According to him this is traditional and the exact way his sifu taught him. In creating Hak Fu Mun So Hak Fu took the knowledge of 17 different styles of kung fu and created the 5 original forms. Later At his school in Canton he taught well over 50 forms. When Grandmaster Wong Cheung died in 1989 Hak Fu Mun had over 100 forms.

I think when the fighting stopped and people tried to keep things secret they misunderstood what keeping secret meant. It didn't mean to not test or share.... since most styles where created from the blending of different styles and meeting of masters.

Again, I could be completely wrong too....


jeff:)

Reply]
All the original usage of Kung Fu was preserved in Indonesia. That is why everyone respects all these Kuntao Silat guys.

[Shaolin of Old]

I train Black Tiger we are very aggressive and never really use kicks above the waist. We attack the legs relentlessly while striking and we rarely take steps backwards. We attack in coming attacks so speed and power is of the impotence. In Black Tiger defense is offense so we block by striking very rarely will you see an attempt to block. Once we commit to attack we don't play that strike and wait game, we keep coming.


jeff:)

Yeah i understand your points and do like them. I hope you don't mind but you couldn't give me your opinion on the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmmcgocSmWI

I would consider the Hung gar guy's approach traditional and to me it does not look like kickboxing, what do you think of his approach and how effective or uneffective is it?

[Violent Designs]

Yeah i understand your points and do like them. I hope you don't mind but you couldn't give me your opinion on the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmmcgocSmWI

I would consider the Hung gar guy's approach traditional and to me it does not look like kickboxing, what do you think of his approach and how effective or uneffective is it?

This is what happens when you think your Sifu is a god and subconsciously refrain from hitting him.

[bawang]

why do manies peopl ein noth america obsess about lineegge and history?

[jmd161]

Yeah i understand your points and do like them. I hope you don't mind but you couldn't give me your opinion on the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmmcgocSmWI

I would consider the Hung gar guy's approach traditional and to me it does not look like kickboxing, what do you think of his approach and how effective or uneffective is it?

Well, I've heard a lot about sifu Albright...from people I trust they say he is the real deal. The video shows me two things right away. There is definately a huge skill and experience gap and the guy with the sash although clearly overmatched his attacks are half assed.

He's trying to be something... i'm not sure if it's traditional or what. At times in the video it looks as if he's trying to fight using a form. He definately thinks too much and is not fighting natural. He telegraphs all of his attacks and is unsure of his attacks.

jeff:)

[jmd161]

why do manies peopl ein noth america obsess about lineegge and history?

There are many reasons for this, but usually it's a way to legitimize that they are learning the real deal.


jeff:)

[Drake]

why do manies peopl ein noth america obsess about lineegge and history?

We like stories. :D

[golden arhat]

Yeah i understand your points and do like them. I hope you don't mind but you couldn't give me your opinion on the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmmcgocSmWI

I would consider the Hung gar guy's approach traditional and to me it does not look like kickboxing, what do you think of his approach and how effective or uneffective is it?

the "master" there looks so arrogant
with his hands behind his back trying to be like some movie he's pathetic

i'd own both of those guys, at the same time.
i'm not exagerating, their method is flawed it looks stiff and uncoordinated, i dont know what the crane guy was doing when he was walking about backwards and forwards side to side like a duck for no reason.


anyone with a good jab cross would have them on the floor.

[golden arhat]

Is what wong kiew kit doing right?

no, he is not. that is all:D

[David Jamieson]

We like stories. :D

stories with bewbies in them!

Hey Jeff, you should fly up and visit with me and Stanley one day!

[Shaolinlueb]

why do manies peopl ein noth america obsess about lineegge and history?

so people believe they have the best or the oldest. idk my lineage is all messed up. lineage isnt that important to me. its the people who teach you and their experience that mattter.

[Eddie]

The more you learn about CMA the more you realize you don't know. You hear and see so many different things... you don't know what is truth or fiction anymore. The more I train with my sifu, who is very traditional. The more I see the way we've come to visualize CMA and it's training methods are completely wrong.

In 99% of CMA schools the students are taught forms and very little time, if any, is spent on actual application. If any sparring is done, it's usually a badly taught half ass basic kick boxing method. Many people some how believe that learning this way is traditional and one day they will some how see everything clearly.:rolleyes:

If you are going to use percentages and claim it as fact, then you should make sure you have done the research. By saying 99% if the schools do it wrong, you make it seems like you think you are part of the 1% that does it right. Sure, we all think we have the real deal, and we all think we know the real stuff, but this type of arrogance is actually what is damaging the CMA.



When you look at today's kung fu schools you see two separate methods being taught. In the majority of schools you see the forms with little application, and then there's the schools that teach Sanshou. Of course then comes the debate on who's traditional the forms collectors or the sanshou people?:confused:

San Shou can be taught separately without forms, and are still called CMA.



The truth of the matter is they're both traditional, but lacking in certain areas. In speaking with old timers from Hong Kong and China traditional CMA is Sanshou and forms taught together, but, only after you've learned some Sanshou to defend yourself. In today's CMA they openly teach you forms but offer no substance after you learn a form. Usually after learning one form you're pushed to start learning the next form and so on.


I have seen some “Traditional” that comes from Hong Kong and some parts of China that were just as bad, if not worse, than some of the stuff we find else where in the world. Its dangerous to assume that they had the right stuff back then (or there), where as we don’t have it now. Actually, its just plain foolish, and arrogant of you to even post such things.

[QUOTE=jmd161;927590]
This brings up a question my sifu asked me.

" People want to make lots of money off teaching Chinese martial arts, but they choose to teach crap...Why Not teach the real thing and show it actually works and make even more money?"

Sure, your sifu is right, so that’s why MMA gyms are growing and most of the “Traditional” CMA schools are struggling to pay rent.

People should move away from this “Traditional” Vs “Modern way of thinking. We are living in 2009. Be serious!

[dougadam]

I agree jeff.

[GreenCloudCLF]

We like stories. :D

Not to mntion without lineage and history we may actually be called upon to prove our Kung-Fu through actual competition. That would be no good for anyone.

[Drake]

Not to mntion without lineage and history we may actually be called upon to prove our Kung-Fu through actual competition. That would be no good for anyone.

Which, ironically, is how history and lineage came to be so important to begin with.

[Eddie]

Not to mntion without lineage and history we may actually be called upon to prove our Kung-Fu through actual competition. That would be no good for anyone.

:cool:
I like what you are saying here

[Drake]

Even if you fight and lose, you still come out more respected than if you never fought at all.

[jmd161]

If you are going to use percentages and claim it as fact, then you should make sure you have done the research. By saying 99% if the schools do it wrong, you make it seems like you think you are part of the 1% that does it right. Sure, we all think we have the real deal, and we all think we know the real stuff, but this type of arrogance is actually what is damaging the CMA.

Not trying to be arrogant, but, I do feel I'm part of the 1% doing things right. That 1% represents many, if not millions of people... there is no way to get an accurate count. I used a precentage, it's my opinion... it could be 99% of the schools I've witnessed, is that better?





San Shou can be taught separately without forms, and are still called CMA..

If you read my post? I did say it was also...



I have seen some “Traditional” that comes from Hong Kong and some parts of China that were just as bad, if not worse, than some of the stuff we find else where in the world. Its dangerous to assume that they had the right stuff back then (or there), where as we don’t have it now. Actually, its just plain foolish, and arrogant of you to even post such things.

You took what I said out of context...I didn't say the kung fu was any better or worst back then, infact, I didn't mention anything about skill level. What I said was in talking to oldtimer's from back then, they said that you learned self defense first, so you could fight, and then you learned forms.



Sure, your sifu is right, so that’s why MMA gyms are growing and most of the “Traditional” CMA schools are struggling to pay rent.

People should move away from this “Traditional” Vs “Modern way of thinking. We are living in 2009. Be serious!

How can we move away from it when the history of CMA, is what draws most people to it?

What has CMA proved lately?

Every forum I read all I see is flame wars and In family fighting and CMA artist being destroyed by other style/system artist.:eek:

We need to get back to the traditional and evolve our styles and stop all this inner family fighting. We need to start testing our stuff in as close to realstic conditions as we can find and disgard what doesn't work.

Hmmmm, sounds a lot like what my sifu preaches...



Hey Jeff, you should fly up and visit with me and Stanley one day!

Hey Dave, I'm planning on doing that, I've just been so busy relocating as you know the last 5 yrs. I'm back in Miami, so maybe I can finally unpack all my stuff and relax...lol

jeff:)

[Drake]

I also think a lot of people like the history and stories, and they like feeling as though they are part of a rich heritage and tradition. The US is a very new country, so you can only go back so far. You'll also find a lot of Americans identifying with other old cultures as well, as a way of being part of a long history of whatever.

TCMA isn't just about fighting, despite what it may have been in the past. For me, hand to hand combat is secondary anyway, as mastering my current weapons set would do me far more good on the modern battefield. You can't fu jau an M240B. In fact, an M240B would likely decimate any army of TCMA fighters out there, in a very VERY short period of time.

My point is, people get involved with this stuff for different reasons, and nobody has a right to tell them they are wrong in doing so.

[Eddie]

Every forum I read all I see is flame wars and In family fighting and CMA artist being destroyed by other style/system artist.:eek:
.....
We need to get back to the traditional and evolve our styles and stop all this inner family fighting. We need to start testing our stuff in as close to realstic conditions as we can find and disgard what doesn't work.



By claiming that 99% of the people do it wrong, one could say you are very much part of the problem, or should I rather say, the reason why there are flame wars on internet forums when ever people are talking about CMA. We as Chinese Martial Artists, are 'destroying' ourselves.

This is a big problem within the CMA (and even within Chinese culture in general), where it is far to easy to diss someone else’s ability, than to acknowledge his/ her actual skill.

If you do it right, instead of just making outragious claims on the net, why dont you tell us exactly what it is that you do right, instead of just saying we all do it wrong?

[Drake]

By claiming that 99% of the people do it wrong, one could say you are very much part of the problem, or should I rather say, the reason why there are flame wars on internet forums when ever people are talking about CMA. We as Chinese Martial Artists, are 'destroying' ourselves.

This is a big problem within the CMA (and even within Chinese culture in general), where it is far to easy to diss someone else’s ability, than to acknowledge his/ her actual skill.

If you do it right, instead of just making outragious claims on the net, why dont you tell us exactly what it is that you do right, instead of just saying we all do it wrong?

I acknowledge your skill, Sifu Eddie! :D

[lkfmdc]

the problem is there is no criteria or standards in TCMA

oh, you do "XYZ sytem" and it's famous so you are good

oh, you study under "Sum Ting Wong" so you are good

just because your system is famous and you come from a lineage of good fighters doesn't mean YOU are good

[jmd161]

By claiming that 99% of the people do it wrong, one could say you are very much part of the problem, or should I rather say, the reason why there are flame wars on internet forums when ever people are talking about CMA. We as Chinese Martial Artists, are 'destroying' ourselves.

This is a big problem within the CMA (and even within Chinese culture in general), where it is far to easy to diss someone else’s ability, than to acknowledge his/ her actual skill.

If you do it right, instead of just making outragious claims on the net, why dont you tell us exactly what it is that you do right, instead of just saying we all do it wrong?


If this is the case, you're doing that same thing you accuse me of now...You choose to argue with me over my post. I named somethings we need to do yet, you come right back to bicker about my post.:rolleyes:

What are "YOU" doing to help CMA get back on track?


I want to get some discussion on how we can change things not bicker over spelling or other crap in a post.:mad:

Jeff:)

[Drake]

If this is the case, you're doing that same thing you accuse me of now...You choose to argue with me over my post. I named somethings we need to do yet, you come right back to bicker about my post.:rolleyes:

What are "YOU" doing to help CMA get back on track?


I want to get some discussion on how we can change things not bicker over spelling or other crap in a post.:mad:

Jeff:)

How do you accuse 99% of other schools of doing things wrong, and then be unhappy when they take offense?

[Drake]

I'd say I read it as:

"Everyone else is doing it wrong (99% of you, anyway), and I want to figure out how to fix you."

[jmd161]

How do you accuse 99% of other schools of doing things wrong, and then be unhappy when they take offense?

People dwell on what they choose to dwell on. At the time of writing the post I had a lot of thoughts going through my mind. In hind sight I could have used other words and not a percentage, but, I never said this was fact. I should have known people would choose to harp on the percentage and not discuss what's at hand.

It's much easier to attack someone trying to discuss ways of fixing CMA's misuseage of percentages than it is to have actual discussions on fixing CMA.:confused:

I could have worded it differently can we get past that and try to address the issues that are making CMA a joke, and what we all can do as CMAist to change it?

Now of course someone will attack the fact that i used the word Joke behind CMA:rolleyes:


jeff:)

[Drake]

By fix do you mean make it more like your style? What is meant by fix?

[jmd161]

By fix do you mean make it more like your style? What is meant by fix?

If you are training CMA or even familiar with CMA, I'm sure you can think of ways to fix CMA. I'm not telling anyone they have to use the approach we are using but, I think anyone with a bit of knowledge of CMA would agree it needs fixing.


jeff:)

[Drake]

If you are training CMA or even familiar with CMA, I'm sure you can think of ways to fix CMA. I'm not telling anyone they have to use the approach we are using but, I think anyone with a bit of knowledge of CMA would agree it needs fixing.


jeff:)

People study CMA for different reasons, so no, I can't think of any one-shot fix that would work. Not everyone goes into it wanting to be a championship fighter. Some just want to lose weight and be healthy, others just think it's fun. MA no longer works in the terms it was originally used for in many cases. You can't go to war with it, you can't rebel against the gov't with it, and it's probably not a good idea to try and get into a street fight with it.

[jmd161]

People study CMA for different reasons, so no, I can't think of any one-shot fix that would work. Not everyone goes into it wanting to be a championship fighter. Some just want to lose weight and be healthy, others just think it's fun. MA no longer works in the terms it was originally used for in many cases. You can't go to war with it, you can't rebel against the gov't with it, and it's probably not a good idea to try and get into a street fight with it.


I don't buy that...

Yes some people take it for health and some for something to do... but, even those people expect what they are learning to have some self defense usefulness. No we aren't trying to overthrow a Gov't but you still have to worry about protecting yourself in the streets.

Maybe you haven't noticed but people still get beaten up and attacked in the streets. Not all attacks are with guns or knives read the paper people still get beaten to death.

There are many gyms you can join for health most in look of health join them. Most join CMA schools because they want health and self defense, unless it's parents unloading their kids in the little tiger's course.

jeff:)

[Drake]

I don't buy that...

Yes some people take it for health and some for something to do... but, even those people expect what they are learning to have some self defense usefulness. No we aren't trying to overthrow a Gov't but you still have to worry about protecting yourself in the streets.

Maybe you haven't noticed but people still get beaten up and attacked in the streets. Not all attacks are with guns or knives read the paper people still get beaten to death.

There are many gyms you can join for health most in look of health join them. Most join CMA schools because they want health and self defense, unless it's parents unloading their kids in the little tiger's course.

jeff:)

All I've been reading about lately are shooting rampages. I also remember some article about a guy getting stabbed. I don't recall any recent articles where someone was hand to hand beaten to death.

Even if what you say is true, a person is normally not attacked by a single, unarmed person. Fighting multiple people (all unarmed) takes more than a couple sessions after work during the week.

[Eddie]

Ok, I apologise if I seemed a little harsh, this wasn’t my intention. I’m not angry at all, and certainly not nitpicking, sorry if you think that.

My problem is just, we are always being told that we do it wrong, no matter what we do. There are always people accusing everyone of not knowing the real things, or of simply doing a form of ‘glorified kickboxing’, or … yada yada yada. Personally I just think this is getting a little old. I’m also just curious now about what REAL kung fu is actually looking like.

Ok, instead of attacking you, let me clear this up for you. I am simply attacking two points you made. Number one, the percentage you claim, 99% - this is a big number. So for every 100 people on this site, only 1 is doing it right. So if there are a million people practicing martial arts, only ten thousand of them are doing it right? That claim is a little harsh, and borders on arrogance, hence my comment. Was not directed at you personally – I don’t actually know you. So I’m mostly trying to debate this line of thought.

We all like to believe that we are doing it right, even if we don’t. We don’t want to hear that we have been spending hundreds of thousands of hours practicing the wrong methods.

Btw – I didn’t criticise your spelling at all.

[jmd161]

We all like to believe that we are doing it right, even if we don’t. We don’t want to hear that we have been spending hundreds of thousands of hours practicing the wrong methods.

Eddie,

I think this is a big problem in martial arts. No one wants to hear I've been doing this for 10 yrs and you mean it's not the real thing? It's better to hear it from someone on a forum than to find out from the guy in the street with your life at his mercy!

When I was young I watched every street fight I could. Not because I wanted to see who would win, but because I wanted to see what would happen in those fights.

(1) What did the winner do that the loser didn't?

(2) What happened if one fighter was much more skilled than the other?

(3) What position/hold/lock could the loser not escape?

I then went home and had my friends apply these moves on me...My friends thought I was cray! I wasn't crazy I had seen a fight where a kid about 15 was at the mercy of his attacker another kid about the same age. I saw the look in his eyes and I knew right then and there I never wanted to be in that position, if I could help it.

That is when I turned to learning martial arts and spent yrs and hrs learning forms and kicks and punches, but had only a handful of techniques I could actually use. I still kept training thinking one day all these forms will pay off and I'd somehow become a fighter and could defend my family and myself, if I had to. I was fooling myself for yrs. It is because of this I try to open peoples eyes and make them look at what they are doing. If you aren't drilling techniques and spending lots of time on application you need to question it. No matter what people tell you there is always a martial aspect to CMA. But people preach the art of not fighting not because they don't want people to get hurt. They preach it so you can't see for yourself they aren't what they claim to be.


Btw – I didn’t criticise your spelling at all.

I know you didn't I was just throwing that in there because I've seen people take a thread off topic with such things as not using proper spelling. That wasn't really directed to you, but others that might have tried to derail the thread.


jeff:)

[Eddie]

I agree that you need to fight to improve your skill, and I am sure many Martial Artists believe the same.

So let me get this right. What is your view on forms training?

[jmd161]

What is your view on forms training?

I think forms are a tool box full of tools that you use to get the job done. I think forms are intended to be a guide on how you should move not how you should fight. Forms are for passing on a styles techniques, concepts and theroies with how you should move with speed and power.

The problem is that forms are not played that way in many styles. People change techniques to make them more pretty for demostrations. After sometime the demo form becomes the only form taught and techniques are lost. I think forms should be taught after you have at least a basic understanding of self defense. By this I mean taking techniques from the forms and drilling them and applying them giving the student useful stuff for all ranges. Then after this is achived you give them new techniques to drill and apply. But what they don't know is you're actually teaching them the first form broken down in to drills and applications.

Then as you teach them the form you point the techniques out that they drilled and worked on. Now they see and understand 1. How to use the technique 2. Why they use the technique and 3. when to use the technique.

When, Why and How!

this is the way my sifu teaches and I would have it no other way. I'll be the first to admit I almost quit several times because it was too hard. We all say we want the real deal when it comes to CMA but the real deal is not easy or fun. What makes it fun is when you move and use it, and there is no doubt that it works. Then all the pain and bruises are worth it.

jeff:)

[lkfmdc]

My problem is just, we are always being told that we do it wrong, no matter what we do. There are always people accusing everyone of not knowing the real things, or of simply doing a form of ‘glorified kickboxing’, or … yada yada yada. Personally I just think this is getting a little old. I’m also just curious now about what REAL kung fu is actually looking like.



it's 2009 and kung fu is no longer secret and underground. We have the internet, we have video, we have YOUTUBE

Why is it that you can't find a single clip of someone fighting, when the fighting is for REAL, like the "kung fu purists" insist it should look like? Pretty basic question isn't it? Of the millions of people doing it and the wide access to it, why can't you point out a SINGLE CLIP - not a demo, not point sparring, not a fake TV staged fight, but a REAL FIGHT WITH CONTACT

[Drake]

it's 2009 and kung fu is no longer secret and underground. We have the internet, we have video, we have YOUTUBE

Why is it that you can't find a single clip of someone fighting, when the fighting is for REAL, like the "kung fu purists" insist it should look like? Pretty basic question isn't it? Of the millions of people doing it and the wide access to it, why can't you point out a SINGLE CLIP - not a demo, not point sparring, not a fake TV staged fight, but a REAL FIGHT WITH CONTACT

1:Oh crap, John's in a fight with those thugs. Quick, videotape it!!

2:But shouldn't we be helping him fi-

1:I SAID F&*^ING VIDEOTAPE IT!!!

[lkfmdc]

1:Oh crap, John's in a fight with those thugs. Quick, videotape it!!

2:But shouldn't we be helping him fi-

1:I SAID F&*^ING VIDEOTAPE IT!!!

so, Kung Fu only works in life and death deadly street combat? :rolleyes:

and while it works on the street, with no rules, under extreme stress, it never seems to work when a kung fu guy gets in a ring or a cage and has a regular old, "just sport" match :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Not to mention the fact you can find HUNDREDS, maybe THOUSANDS of street fights on YOUTUBE yet NONE of them look like kung fu as the "purists" would lead you to believe

or, in conlusion, teh fail

[Drake]

Hell, I dunno. When I fight I just try and disable the guy whichever way I can in the shortest time possible. I HAVE found that overwhelming force and violence of action work wonders. :D

[lkfmdc]

Hell, I dunno. When I fight I just try and disable the guy whichever way I can in the shortest time possible. I HAVE found that overwhelming force and violence of action work wonders. :D

you mean you don't circle them, making hand gestures, calling out each animal, just before you disable them with a chi blast? :eek:

[Drake]

you mean you don't circle them, making hand gestures, calling out each animal, just before you disable them with a chi blast? :eek:

I use elegant, ancient techniques, such as the choke slam, head punch, and various beautiful, flowery moves to cut off circulation to the brain. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms were taught last and usually only to lineage bearors in many cases.(Unless they were specific training sets designed to develop structure, breath, power, etc.(sam bo ging, saamjien, siu-lim tau, etc)
There was an interview with a descendant of Yang Lu-Chan, who said that the form wasn't taught at all. Just applications, push hands and fighting. The short sequences(single whip, brush knee, etc) practiced later, and the form wasn't taught until it was taught to the public.

Here's a newsflash-people LIKE hitting things.
Bag drills are fun, and a great workout. People LIKE putting on handwraps, bag gloves and hitting the pads. They feel that they are developing real skills.(they also like buying them. Owning fight gear is like owning a gun or something. It's empowering.)
They ENJOY sparring-in a safe enviornment, taught in a methodical manner.
It develops confidense-which is why they came in the first place.

Someone has groin kicked the correct.

[MightyB]

MMA is cool, but now I'm thinking it's becoming too g@y. Too much focus on sporting rage and no substance- having thugs pound the $hit out of each other- it's not really that accessible and it's really more like TMA than it cares to admit.

Judo can be sweet, but it's falling victim to it's own success- Judo was a better form of Ju-Jitsu- basically Ju-Jitsu simplified for effectiveness and Randori. It started to become BJJ even before BJJ existed, but- for some crazy reason (sport) the Kodokan put limits on Newaza and all of the gains that could've been made because of the Kozen school ceased and had to wait for the Brazilians to do their thing.

TCMA- it's getting old. Just like Judo, just like MMA will become. But- we do see that because of MMA- TCMA is getting better. Is it effective in MMA? Who the frig knows 'cuz UFC style is UFC style. Pure BJJ isn't represented anymore, Thai Boxing, wrestling, etc it's really not in MMA cuz it's UFC style kung fu.

Kung Fu works- if you have an open mind. TCMA is supposed to be a mishmash of styles. Think about it- what is Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut? Basically any TCMA- they're mishmashes of different styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung Fu works- if you have an open mind. TCMA is supposed to be a mishmash of styles. Think about it- what is Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut? Basically any TCMA- they're mishmashes of different styles.

Blasphemy !!
Crazy talk !!
Sure its true, but don't be bringing truth into this !!

[lkfmdc]

you need to constantly test your stuff

if you are content with where you are now, you are actually moving backward

if you are content because in the past someone did something, well, it really means nothing

"MMA" is this incarnation of the cycle, but think back to the 60's when a bunch of Americans said "point sux" and created kickboxing, only to discover that Muay Thai is reall kickboxing.

Heck, go back to Maeda and the other Kodokan challenges, heck to the police college matches where PEOPLE DIED

in TCMA go back to the days of Lei Tai, when you had to put up or shut up. But that was over 100 years ago really

[lkfmdc]

Blasphemy !!
Crazy talk !!
Sure its true, but don't be bringing truth into this !!

glorified kickboxer!

[sanjuro_ronin]

you need to constantly test your stuff

if you are content with where you are now, you are actually moving backward

if you are content because in the past someone did something, well, it really means nothing

"MMA" is this incarnation of the cycle, but think back to the 60's when a bunch of Americans said "point sux" and created kickboxing, only to discover that Muay Thai is reall kickboxing.

Heck, go back to Maeda and the other Kodokan challenges, heck to the police college matches where PEOPLE DIED

in TCMA go back to the days of Lei Tai, when you had to put up or shut up. But that was over 100 years ago really
Everything most "evolve", it must grow.
EX:
Having been exposed to kali I know do not teach any blocks that expose the inner part of the arm to possible knife cuts, which was something that never occured to me until I was exposed to Kali.

[MightyB]

you need to constantly test your stuff

if you are content with where you are now, you are actually moving backward

if you are content because in the past someone did something, well, it really means nothing

"MMA" is this incarnation of the cycle, but think back to the 60's when a bunch of Americans said "point sux" and created kickboxing, only to discover that Muay Thai is reall kickboxing.

Heck, go back to Maeda and the other Kodokan challenges, heck to the police college matches where PEOPLE DIED

in TCMA go back to the days of Lei Tai, when you had to put up or shut up. But that was over 100 years ago really

But- if this was historical China or Japan- you'd evolve a style- but you'd represent it with a slight name change to pay respect to your influences. For instance- you could say that you're doing Ross school Lama Pai. It'd still be considered LP- but it'd be recognized for your innovations. That's why there were so many styles of TMA- heck- Judo was called Kano Ju Jitsu.

[lkfmdc]

But- if this was historical China or Japan- you'd evolve a style- but you'd represent it with a slight name change to pay respect to your influences. For instance- you could say that you're doing Ross school Lama Pai. It'd still be considered LP- but it'd be recognized for your innovations. That's why there were so many styles of TMA- heck- Judo was called Kano Ju Jitsu.

I'll tell you a secret if you promise not to tell anyone else :D

In Chinese my ranking certificates read
"Si Jih Hao San Da Kyuhn Faat"

or

"Lion's Roar San Da System"

because obviously I didn't really create anything, I just codified and/or passed on stuff

But according to some people I don't know any kung fu and just teach glorified kickboxing :D

[MightyB]

I'll tell you a secret if you promise not to tell anyone else :D

In Chinese my ranking certificates read
"Si Jih Hao San Da Kyuhn Faat"

or

"Lion's Roar San Da System"

because obviously I didn't really create anything, I just codified and/or passed on stuff

But according to some people I don't know any kung fu and just teach glorified kickboxing :D

I don't care what the Canadians say, but "Lion's Roar San Da System" is a frigg'n cool name.

[taai gihk yahn]

glorified kickboxer!

please use the "official" acronym: GKK (Glorified Kickboxer Knucklehead) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53703)

[lkfmdc]

please use the "official" acronym: GKK (Glorified Kickboxer Knucklehead)

YOUR right ;)