WC's Ground Game

[Katsu Jin Ken]

The title of this thread is kindof misleading. I wanted to say in MMA but the UFC isnt real mixed martial arts more like jack of all trades master of none. Sorry, back on point.

Do you all believe that WC has a ground game? How about throws? Could it rival BJJ on the ground? Whats your take on TWC being used in a combat sport setting? TWC on the street in a true NHB setting?

This has probably been asked several thousands times before but ive been viewing this forum for a few years now. It has less trolls and more info than ever before thats why i posted these questions again for the umtenith time.



My take on it:

Ground Game: You can use the same basic principles of wing chun on the ground just as if you were standing. You have to have a good base nomatter what position your in. Constant forword pressure. Dont let your self collapse, right and left defend accordingly. dont give up your center. Those can all be used on the ground. William Cheung recently wrote and article in Bla** Belt magazine about just such techniques.

Throws: I love throws having a JJ background, but its all there in the wing chun. Chum Kiu has the outside leg circles at the beginning of the form (atleast our version does) those are clearly leg reaps. The turning double lan saus can become head & arm throws like Uchi Mata or Ochi Gari variations. In Biu Gee, the Emergency bend at the waist towards the end of the form easily become hip throws like Ogoshi. Just looking at the motions looks alot like Seio Naga. If you just set down at the bend over position its a sit down throw.


BJJ: im not a huge fan of. They pretty much ignore the lower half of the body. Im more fond of the Russian sambo style of leg locks position. "Position over submission"- Tony Cecchine (Catch as Catch Can)


What do you all think?

[Knifefighter]

You can take some of the principles of anything and use them on the ground. However, unless you know where the specific differences lie, they won't do you much good.

As far as leg locks go, they are great. However, throw strikes and or weapons into the ground mix and you will find that the position before submission approach of BJJ probably makes more sense.

[Genetic]

you will find that the position before submission approach of BJJ probably makes more sense.

This is possibly the single most important factor of BJJ that can be assimilated into any art to make it better.

It should already be in wing chun, (if not in the psyche of many of the exponents.)

If not it needs re-incorporating. Hitting someone for the sake of it is a waste of time. You should be hitting them to finish the fight.

In BJJ you control the opponent before submitting them. In wing chun you should be controling the opponent before finishing them.

BJJ has a lot to offer. As far as on the ground, wing chun just cannot compete. Wing chun principles on the ground wont necessarilly stop you being on the wrong end of an arm bar or a triangle choke, when you thought you were going to finish the opponent off with an attempted strike to their head. etc...

But as to wing chun having a lot to offer on the ground. It does. Explosive power. Short range striking and close quarters fighting. Sensitivity.

But the pins and transitions of BJJ are a powerful toolset on the ground that attempting to circumvent, or avoid would be a mistake, as they form the basis of the solid foundation that you need on the ground, when you dont have YJKYM to support you.

As to UFC jack of all trades, master of none, I think we have been watching different fights. Those guys are warriors. And are masters of MMA. they are professional fighters, and I dont get why people dont appreciate them for what they are. But then Im not insecure...It doesnt bother me that they would kill me in unarmed combat.
How many of them are BJJ black belts? BJJ black belts dont come free in your morning cerial. If that isnt mastery, what is?

[anerlich]

TWC (William Cheung) has always had techniques for fighting from the ground. But the emphasis is on keeping the guy away, hurting him or taking him down so that you can stand back up rather than any real positional game.

On the ground, a TWC guy's major weapons are his legs. Keep your legs between you and him (basic BJJ as well, but the emphasis is very different). If he moves, spin or turn to follow him. Kick his shins, knees, ankles, groin, torso, head. There are a few ways to take him down by entangling his legs with yours.

If he gets past your legs, you're pretty vulnerable, though there are a few desperation measures.

My MMA coach espouses a pretty similar strategy when striking is allowed and the guy is in range (generally meaning not close enough to control your legs). Antonio Inoki lasted the entire fight with Muhammad Ali unscathed using this strategy, Renzo Gracie KO'ed Oleg Taktarov with it, and Allen Goes used it successfully against Sakuraba.

Is it as good as BJJ for groundfighting? If I though it was, I wouldn't have worked toward my purple belt in BJJ.


BJJ: im not a huge fan of. They pretty much ignore the lower half of the body. Im more fond of the Russian sambo style of leg locks position. "Position over submission"- Tony Cecchine (Catch as Catch Can)

I'm not sure the generalisation you make about BJJ is that valid any more, though, yes, the upper body is usually seen as a better submission option. Miss a leg lock, you're often left in a poor position. "Position over Submission" is a BJJ maxim and hardly something Tony C came up with on his own. Most sensible grapplers these days like to learn from each other and don't get hung up on stylistic purity, unlike too many TCMA people.

Victor has been kind enough to send me a few Tony C tapes, and there is some good stuff on there, and the foot/leglock stuff is very good. But Tony C has collaborated with BJJ guys too,

Rigan Machado won an American Sambo championship fairly easily a while back. By all accounts Russian Sambo is a lot better though.

Also BJJ is a lot easier to find than catch wrestling, except maybe in the US.

[punchdrunk]

The number 1 problem for wing chun on the ground is few schools train it at all, not to mention training it to the point where they are as comfortable there as a true grappler. If you spent just an hour a day wrestling people you might possibly start a descent wing chun ground game for yourself, but you would probably be re-inventing things you could learn more quickly elsewhere.
However if your training does make progress in the ground there is no reason to not include it as part of your own wing chun. Wing Chun has room to grow!
Good topic, good posts.

[Wu Wei Wu]

It is inefficient to try to make Wing Chun work on the ground, when there are far superior methods for that range. Sure you can try to find Wing Chun principles and try to make them apply to the ground, or alternatively, you can save time by just learning from someone who moves well on the ground, be it wrestling, BJJ, catch, sambo etc etc.

Take Wing Chun out of the equation. To be a complete fighter, one should incorporate some grappling into his method.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

As to UFC jack of all trades, master of none, I think we have been watching different fights. Those guys are warriors. And are masters of MMA. they are professional fighters, and I dont get why people dont appreciate them for what they are. But then Im not insecure...It doesnt bother me that they would kill me in unarmed combat.
How many of them are BJJ black belts? BJJ black belts dont come free in your morning cerial. If that isnt mastery, what is?


I love MMA watch it all the time but...90% have mastered nothing. When you say "i want to train MMA" i think i just have an issue with the name. Mixed Martial Arts means a mixture of different martial arts not just going to a gym you know what i mean? I think Combat Sport is a more suitable name. MMA today you arent learning an "art". Martial arts isnt just about fighting.

BJJ black belts dont come free thats true its hard to get one. BJJ is probably the most popular grappling art today. We can all thank Al Bundy (Ed O'Neil) for that

IMO Wing chun doesnt have ground work because on the battlefield going to the ground would mean death. Going to the ground for any length of time now is a bad move it is never 1 on 1 anymore.

[punchdrunk]

of course a ground game includes taking an opponent off their feet to finish them with a hold or strikes, something that would be useful on any battle field. Not many wing chun schools train striking an opponent you have knocked or thrown to the ground and it is something that should be studied for practical purposes. I know even before the BJJ revolution most JJ dojo's included this in their drill training and i suspect many traditional systems had it before as well. Those kind of ideas would be very easy to start training and find results fast.

[Genetic]

Martial arts isnt just about fighting.

If not, there is something seriously wrong.



BJJ black belts dont come free thats true its hard to get one. BJJ is probably the most popular grappling art today. We can all thank Al Bundy (Ed O'Neil) for that


You have lost me there, what does Al Bundy have to do with BJJ?



IMO Wing chun doesnt have ground work because on the battlefield going to the ground would mean death. Going to the ground for any length of time now is a bad move it is never 1 on 1 anymore.

And it is never let them get back on their feet and resume from standing anymore. Times and cultures change. And if a martial art doesnt adapt, it may as well be dead. BJJ has lots to offer and learn from, when it comes to being comfortable on the ground, it is a great place to look. Me Im not comfortable on the ground, that is why I train BJJ. Because I was uncomfortable, and because it was a problem area.

Like you say going to the ground for any length of time is a bad move, so if you find yourself there, you need to be comfortable, or you are in serious trouble.

[taai gihk yahn]

Me Im not comfortable on the ground, that is why I train BJJ. Because I was uncomfortable, and because it was a problem area.
this, in a nutshell, should be the attitude that everyone has about their MA training; in Buddhism they talk about "leaning into the sharp points"...

[anerlich]

You have lost me there, what does Al Bundy have to do with BJJ?

Ed O'neill, the actor who plays Al Bundy, has been doing BJJ for a long time. He was presented with his black belt not that long ago, at age 60, by Rener and Ryron Gracie (I think). You can find Youtube of him getting his black belt, and jpeg's of him play wrestling with Helio Gracie.

To suggest that he is significantly responsible for the popularity of BJJ is to do both BJJ and him a major disservice, though, nd is a ridiculous thing to say. I've certainly never met anyone who said "I took up BJJ because Al Bundy does it."

The popularity of BJJ is largely due to the UFC and clever marketing by Rorion et al.

That and the fact that it is pretty ****ed effective.

[anerlich]

IMO Wing chun doesnt have ground work because on the battlefield going to the ground would mean death.

Some of the predecessor arts of Jiu Jitsu were also allegedly battle field arts. A soldier would take the enemy down and control him long enough to find a way to stab him though *****s in the armour.

[Genetic]

To suggest that he is significantly responsible for the popularity of BJJ is to do both BJJ and him a major disservice

I guess this was the aim, trying to associate BJJ to Al Bundy via Ed O'Neil, as opposed to BJJ to its considerable success in the world of mixed martial arts and its major role in the shaping of modern martial art.

Oh I forgot, that is if you consider fighting to even be considered a martial art at all...

[anerlich]

I respect Ed O'Neill and his training. He took up BJJ when he was about the same age I was when I took it up. I'm hoping I'll make black belt before I become a sexagenarian.

He's typecast as Al Bundy, but he's done OK as a serious actor as well.

[Genetic]

I respect Ed O'Neill and his training. He took up BJJ when he was about the same age I was when I took it up. I'm hoping I'll make black belt before I become a sexagenarian.

He's typecast as Al Bundy, but he's done OK as a serious actor as well.

I love Al Bundy! Okay I've not watched the show in years, but used to really enjoy it when I was younger.

I was wondering though how you have a forum join date of 1970?

Did the internet even exist then??? :)

At the moment, Id be happy to get to blue belt. I've still got to get comfortable on the floor. Im getting there though.

[Knifefighter]

BJJ black belts dont come free thats true its hard to get one. BJJ is probably the most popular grappling art today.
Freestyle and folkstyle wrestling are the most popular grappling systems today.


IMO Wing chun doesnt have ground work because on the battlefield going to the ground would mean death.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions of what happened on the battlefields before firearms came into existence.

Grab some weapons, put on some armor and grab about 60 guys to go 30 on 30. You will find that, just as often as not, people end up grappling on the ground.

As far as using WC principles on the ground, that is about as ludicrous as saying you can use ground principles in the standing realm.

[Knifefighter]

The title of this thread is kindof misleading. I wanted to say in MMA but the UFC isnt real mixed martial arts more like jack of all trades master of none.

Actually, what they are masters of is MMA.

[Knifefighter]

"Position over submission"- Tony Cecchine (Catch as Catch Can)

That was not Tony's philosophy at all. His quote was "submission from any position."

[t_niehoff]

This is one of the biggest misconceptions of what happened on the battlefields before firearms came into existence.

Grab some weapons, put on some armor and grab about 60 guys to go 30 on 30. You will find that, just as often as not, people end up grappling on the ground.

As far as using WC principles on the ground, that is about as ludicrous as saying you can use ground principles in the standing realm.

I can't remember the title of the book that cited the study off-the-bat (I'll try to find it), but the US Army recently did a "study" of combatants that had actual hand-to-hand confrontations on the "battlefield" and determined that all of them ended up in grappling, and the overwhelming majority went to the ground.

P.S. I found the source: "Hand to Hand Combat" by Greg Thompson and Kid Peligro. Matt Larson, the man considered to be the "father of Modern Army Combatives" (the system of hand to hand combat taught to the U.S. Rangers and special forces), interviewed hundreds of soldiers that engaged in hand to hand combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. According to Larson, "every hand-to-hand fight we have documented has involved grappling, but not a single one has involved only striking."

[anerlich]

John Will, one of the earliest Aussiie BJJ black belts, does regular seminars with the Australian army and other police and military groups.

According to a number of his military students who have seen combat in Iraq, it is fairly common in house-to-house clearing operations for the guys they are trying to track down to conceal themselves then try to tackle the soldier as he enters the room, rendering their rifles less effective. So ending up on the ground is definitely seen as a potential problem scenario by modern soldiers.

The soldiers don't try to armlock or choke the guy just create enough space with their legs to draw a knife and kill the enemy.

I don't know too many details as it was a farily short anecdote in the context of teaching techniques, but the man is no bu11Sh1tter and definitelty knows his stuff.

[anerlich]

I was wondering though how you have a forum join date of 1970?

Did the internet even exist then???


It was all tin cans and bits of string. Or tubes :cool:

The forum went belly up a few years back and everyone woh had joined before it went belly up ended up with that join date when it came back on line.

[taai gihk yahn]

I was always skeptical of the argument that "traditional" and "battlefield"-based styles (???) didn't teach ground because in a battle between two armies, going to the ground was neither desirable nor likely; if you are talking about HTH between 2 large groups, I think a lot of peeps are going to end up on the ground: if it's random, crazy weapons melee, sooner or later someone's going to slam into you and knock you over from behind or the side, or you are going to trip over someone's corpse, or your opponent will charge you to get inside your weapon's range (especially if he has been somehow disarmed); also, so-called "battlefield" arts are predicated more on large troop movements, using serfs with pikes as cannon fodder, that sort of thing; if you ever watch Branagh's Henry V, while some of the HTH choreography is questionable, you get a pretty good idea of the craziness that battlefield combat involved, and a lot of it was rolling around in the muck...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gravity rules, people fall, perhaps more so in large scale combat than in 1-on-1.
The differnence would be that in a "mass combat environment" the primary goal is to defend and get off the ground instead of trying to fight ON the ground, though obviously that would play a huge part in it.

[t_niehoff]

Gravity rules, people fall, perhaps more so in large scale combat than in 1-on-1.
The differnence would be that in a "mass combat environment" the primary goal is to defend and get off the ground instead of trying to fight ON the ground, though obviously that would play a huge part in it.

But the better you are at fighting on the ground, the better your skill will be at getting up off the ground should you want to. In other words, it is grappling skill that is involved in getting up (escaping holds and pins, being able to control your opponent, etc.).

[Kansuke]

Freestyle and folkstyle wrestling are the most popular grappling systems today.



Thank you.

[AdrianK]

BJJ: im not a huge fan of. They pretty much ignore the lower half of the body. Im more fond of the Russian sambo style of leg locks position. "Position over submission"- Tony Cecchine (Catch as Catch Can)


What do you all think?

I think singing the praises of wing chun ground game and then criticizing an extremely effective and extensively proven art which has in general, a much higher level of quality control, is extremely disrespectful, not to mention idiotic.

You want to criticize some arts, start with wing chun itself.

And while wing chun concepts will work on the ground, the fact of the matter is, Wing Chun does not have even close to a complete understanding of the ground fight.

[taai gihk yahn]

I think singing the praises of wing chun ground game and then criticizing an extremely effective and extensively proven art which has in general, a much higher level of quality control, is extremely disrespectful, not to mention idiotic.
although at the same time, it does manage to encapsulate in a rather pity manner the inherent quirkiness that is the TCMA mentality!

[monji112000]

The title of this thread is kindof misleading. I wanted to say in MMA but the UFC isnt real mixed martial arts more like jack of all trades master of none. Sorry, back on point.

Do you all believe that WC has a ground game? How about throws? Could it rival BJJ on the ground? Whats your take on TWC being used in a combat sport setting? TWC on the street in a true NHB setting?

This has probably been asked several thousands times before but ive been viewing this forum for a few years now. It has less trolls and more info than ever before thats why i posted these questions again for the umtenith time.



My take on it:

Ground Game: You can use the same basic principles of wing chun on the ground just as if you were standing. You have to have a good base nomatter what position your in. Constant forword pressure. Dont let your self collapse, right and left defend accordingly. dont give up your center. Those can all be used on the ground. William Cheung recently wrote and article in Bla** Belt magazine about just such techniques.

Throws: I love throws having a JJ background, but its all there in the wing chun. Chum Kiu has the outside leg circles at the beginning of the form (atleast our version does) those are clearly leg reaps. The turning double lan saus can become head & arm throws like Uchi Mata or Ochi Gari variations. In Biu Gee, the Emergency bend at the waist towards the end of the form easily become hip throws like Ogoshi. Just looking at the motions looks alot like Seio Naga. If you just set down at the bend over position its a sit down throw.


BJJ: im not a huge fan of. They pretty much ignore the lower half of the body. Im more fond of the Russian sambo style of leg locks position. "Position over submission"- Tony Cecchine (Catch as Catch Can)


What do you all think?

Do you know anything about martial arts? I'll ignore the MMA attack, because its silly. WC has 0 ground techniques outside of maybe chain punching from a version of knee of belly.
Ground Game: You can use the same basic principles of wing chun on the ground just as if you were standing. First off you go from school to school and you find that nobody agrees on the basic "principles" and even ones that seem the same its not used in the same way. Its like saying I'll use WC to ride a horse.. sure.. but you have to first learn how to ride a horse.
I love throws having a JJ background, but its all there in the wing chun. Chum Kiu has the outside leg circles at the beginning of the form (atleast our version does) those are clearly leg reaps.
Anyone can stretch a kung fu forms into being they are not.

BJJ ignores half of the body? WTF?? Maybe some people do, but thats pretty blind. The general mantra of every BJJ school is position over submission.
You have no idea what the heck your talking about. Don't quote Tony Checchine, like anyone cares what he thinks. How can you talk about leg locks and then say position over submission? a large amount of them put you out of position, which is why you don't see them as much in MMA. Its a gamble unless you are VERY good at them. Even then they aren't as high percentage. That doesn't mean they don't work or they aren't good. The are NASTY! But in all honesty, why gamble with getting your face smashed over a heel hook? Why not take the top and knock his teeth out? Allot of people will just let their legs get jacked up and continue to fight. How many people have a broken arm and continue fighting? I can think of only one person I have ever heard of in MMA. :D Perfect example is the recent Rafael dos Anjos fight. Great JJ guy, had a calf crush from hell on the guy. I believe the guy had surgery from it, because he probably destroyed his knee. Rafael dos Anjos lost the fight. He should have taken the guys back and finished the fight.

again you know nothing about martial arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ground Game: You can use the same basic principles of wing chun on the ground just as if you were standing. You have to have a good base nomatter what position your in. Constant forword pressure. Dont let your self collapse, right and left defend accordingly. dont give up your center.

The principles are fine, in theory, they just have to be modified quite a bit in practice and practice in a ground fighting environment, not a WC one.
EX: the principle of constant forward pressure applied to the ground may get you subbed in more ways than one cares to imagine, even more so if applied as typiclaly done while STANDING.

[lkfmdc]

I"m afraid that by introducing logic into this thread, I'll disrupt the flow of this conversation and perhaps, e gad, end the thread :eek:

Can you take certain wing chun principles and apply them on the ground? Yes.

Unforatunately, you'll be wasting a lot of time trying to figure out what is real and what is fantasy on the ground and developing techniques.

But, more importantly, you'll then find out the end that those wing chun principles that do work on teh ground are already part of established grappling systems

YOur time might be better spent trying to invent a device with four wheels that runs on a fossil fuel and can convey people to locations

[CFT]

Your time might be better spent trying to invent a device with four wheels that runs on a fossil fuel and can convey people to locationsTssk! That is so "backward" looking. :p

[lkfmdc]

Tssk! That is so "backward" looking. :p

that is sorta da point ;)

[monji112000]

I"m afraid that by introducing logic into this thread, I'll disrupt the flow of this conversation and perhaps, e gad, end the thread :eek:

Can you take certain wing chun principles and apply them on the ground? Yes.

Unforatunately, you'll be wasting a lot of time trying to figure out what is real and what is fantasy on the ground and developing techniques.

But, more importantly, you'll then find out the end that those wing chun principles that do work on teh ground are already part of established grappling systems

YOur time might be better spent trying to invent a device with four wheels that runs on a fossil fuel and can convey people to locations

I don't like the idea of trying to use WC "techniques" for the ground. I would say I use WC ideas, concepts, ect.. to help me learn faster, and give me ideas on how things work. I do once in a while use a literal technique but its all in context. Some people say forward pressure is a Fundamental of WC, I don't .. but ok. Thats a perfect example of how it can be misused. A perfect example of using a "WC" concept is Push and pull. My Sifu is always talking about it in Chi sao. It comes up in ground fighting allot also. Another example is protecting yourself, and not putting yourself in harms way for the sake of attacking.
I'm sure allot of martial arts have these ideas. I don't like saying Center .. because it means allot of things to allot of people, depending on the situation.

[Knifefighter]

I don't like the idea of trying to use WC "techniques" for the ground. I would say I use WC ideas, concepts, ect.. to help me learn faster, and give me ideas on how things work. I do once in a while use a literal technique but its all in context. Some people say forward pressure is a Fundamental of WC, I don't .. but ok. Thats a perfect example of how it can be misused. A perfect example of using a "WC" concept is Push and pull. My Sifu is always talking about it in Chi sao. It comes up in ground fighting allot also. Another example is protecting yourself, and not putting yourself in harms way for the sake of attacking.
I'm sure allot of martial arts have these ideas. I don't like saying Center .. because it means allot of things to allot of people, depending on the situation.

The thing with groundfighting is that the principles change, depending on one's position. In certain positions you want space, while in others , you need to shut it down. In some positions you want to face the opponent's center, while in others you want an angle.

[Yoshiyahu]

Does traditional Wing Chun have a ground game?

Does Boxing have a ground Game?

Does Tae Kwon Do have a ground Game?

Does Karate have a ground game?


Do they need a ground game? Answer in short NO!

They are standing arts. With some take downs,sweeps maybe or chin na techniques.

As for the ground game. If you are fighting ground fighters in an arena,stage,competitions I suggest studing a valid ground fighting style. An Use that. If you are fighting off an attacker on street trying to hit you in the mouth. I suggest learning Karate,TKD Wing Chun or become a golden glove boxer. These will fare better in a street fight.

Also it depends on what you interest is. Do you like ground fighting or do you like kung fu more. Which ever one is your interest that is the one you will prevail in most.

When a fight breaks out what you practice the most will aid you. Using what you practice the least could get you killed an at the very least hurt badly.

I think WC principals work best when you are inside fighting. Also medium range fighting WC principals work well. I think if you choose to fight on the outside or long range. Choy Li Fut,Tae Kwon Do or ChangQuan(Long Fist) would serve you best. This is my opinion.

How can you use WC principals while throwing high kicks?

What about WC principals when doing Aerial Kicks?

You can not. Its a different system.

But I for one love WC the most. An to me the best thing to do is learn how to defeat other fighters with out utlizing their system. In other words who ever is the best will prevail. This is the key to me. Instead of throwing high kicks or jumping in the air with an opponent I will try to move out of their flight path. Instead of trying to wrestle a grappler down to ground so I can submit him. I will attempt to counter his takedown attempt an continously strike him.

If I fail his fighting spirit prevailed. If I win my fighting spirit prevails. Who ever has the most skill an fighting with their art wins. That what it boils down too. No need to get a ground game if you can defeat an opponent before going to ground. But if your interested in learning how to fight different ranges. I suggest you do following

Study Kick Boxing and Greco Wrestling.

That way you got punches,kicks and grappling! An both are western fighting systems. No need to dedicate yourself to a bunch of chinese stuff! when you dont have too.

[Kansuke]

No need to get a ground game if you can defeat an opponent before going to ground.



If you can defeat every opponent every time before going to ground? Yeah, that's a good bet...good thinking...

[SimonW]

TWC (William Cheung) has always had techniques for fighting from the ground. But the emphasis is on keeping the guy away, hurting him or taking him down so that you can stand back up rather than any real positional game.

Yeah, we saw it in action once ;)

[bakxierboxer]

that is sorta da point ;)

Maybe this is some other kinda point?

GM/Segway co-op

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090407/D97DLJ180.html

[anerlich]

Yeah, we saw it in action once

The OP asked about using WC on the ground. I detailed the TWC party line on groundfighting. If I though it was good enough, I wouldn't have trained BJJ to purple belt level over the last ten years.

You apparently have no solutions to offer regarding WC's ground game, so why don't you just go back to practising headbutts on your wooden dummy?

[mjw]

When I trained with my sifu in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) we would chi sau/ spar and when it would go to the ground we would keepgoing as a way of training VT on the ground. Wether or not VT in the art yes principles were used.

Later on I went on to cross train in BJJ and I would say that a lot of the princiles do work such as the pressue and sensitivity also works for armlocks etc at times.
As for the centerline and punching from the center isn't part of the theory itself to go in the shortest distance possible or to hit the middle of the mass so it doesn't turn out and diffuse the force?

Well using some of these same principles sometimes a hook punch might be the shortest distance due to the position of your bodies. and as for the center of the body and hitting the core is something that I also stride to do but I look at it as the centerline shifts at times as when your oponent may turn their head and also it is key to try to strike square where you make a level sandwich with your strike, the floor or wall and your oponents body which makes things different but still uses the principles of Ving Tsun.

Many times there is angling in BJJ positioning however when you shift to do for instance tan da or dip da etc. you are making an agle just the same but instead of a simple shift one might be circling a body in BJJ from side mount to reverse mount down to to knee on the belly over to taking their back based on how they are turning and still going for the path of least resistance many times but never letting up on their structure when you are crushing it also like VT.

They are different however I think the principles still can apply very much so.

[lkfmdc]

Just to refresh newbie memories

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i think that for the most part everyone says that TWC doesnt do a very good job at addressing the ground game so i pose this question

why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?


thoughts?

[anerlich]

i think that for the most part everyone says that TWC doesnt do a very good job at addressing the ground game so i pose this question

Do you mean generic traditional Wing Chun or William Cheung's TWC?

If the latter, I'm not sure that any other lineage of WC can demonstrate any real facility with groundfighting either. Certainly yet to see anyone step up on this thread. As for TWC's failure on the ground, I can think of at least two high profile examples where other lineages of WC/T failed miserably against groundfighters.


why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?

Because they aren't omniscient gurus? Because (shudder) they were only trying to develop a standup pugilistic art, and recognised that it did have some limitations that they didn't try to address, but perhaps learned other arts as well to compensate?

[t_niehoff]

i think that for the most part everyone says that TWC doesnt do a very good job at addressing the ground game so i pose this question

why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?


thoughts?

Yeah! And I wonder why the "founders" of boxing left out kicking, the clinch, and the ground? And why the "founders" of muay thai left out the ground? And the Gracies left out striking and stand-up? You're right, it seems they were all a bunch of morons!! ;)

[AdrianK]

why not?........why would the arts founders leave out something like that?

They worked within the limitations of their knowledge and experience. If they had known shuai chiao for instance, then shuai chiao would've probably shown up in wing chun.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

just FYI for everyone alittle on my background i am not a TWC guy, never was, i dont train at a "wing chun" school. My instructor is an instructor in wc as well as jj (PM me if you want specifics).

how about you all? anyone a pure WC fighter? that is to say the only formal training in MA you have is WC

[AdrianK]

Nope. Definitely not. :D

That being said, I doubt you'll find any Wing Chun "Fighters" here. That is to say, anyone actively fighting, using strictly wing chun... practitioners, sure, but a fighter is a lotta different.

[Phil Redmond]

Nope. Definitely not. :D

That being said, I doubt you'll find any Wing Chun "Fighters" here. That is to say, anyone actively fighting, using strictly wing chun... practitioners, sure, but a fighter is a lotta different.
I can understand you saying that you doubt you'll find many WC people here fighting but you are most definitely wrong about there being no WC fighters here. We have fighters that used strictly WC in full contact events. You never know who's a member of this forum.

[monji112000]

The thing with groundfighting is that the principles change, depending on one's position. In certain positions you want space, while in others , you need to shut it down. In some positions you want to face the opponent's center, while in others you want an angle.
well thats why I said I what I said. Even in Wing Chun you don't have a universal understanding of "principles". For example you say you want to face the opponents center. Thats all well and good, but I can say many examples when NO you don't want to face the opponents center. it is very easily observed that by always facing his center you loose all torque. Many kicks , punches, setups ect.. are based on turning your body , no facing his center. Its a idea, not a law. the same applies in BJJ. Yes its a basic fundamental idea that you want to face your opponent, the idea in a nut shell being you can use your limbs and he can't take your back. I'm sure you can come up with times when you may for a moment no directly face your opponent.. of if you throw them you may not want to face them. Try and do a ogoshi and always face them.. good luck.

Space isn't a principle, in my ultimate understanding of "wing chun". Their are other ideas that use space to explain things. For example, being safe.. the closer I am to you the more I'm in danger. This is a basic principle in my Sifu's Wing Chun. So once you engage you must be aware of what you do, and COVER. The same idea can be applied in BJJ. some one has side 100 kilos or whatever. He is trying to keep the space as small as possible.. so I'm in danger. I must create space to try and escape, I must make my self "safe".

Ideas or principles are what you make of them. They aren't written on two tablets given from G-d. You treat them like that and you loose all the worth they may have.

Another basic idea I use ALL THE TIME in WC and BJJ/Judo...is Push and pull or opposite power. so many sweeps, submissions, throws, escapes ect.. use this idea. Another idea is set-tup, this is super important in Chi sao. You can never do anything outright. If you don't have the proper set-up, IE timing, feeling, technique to setup.. it doesn't work when people resist. This is universal in BJJ and Judo. Yet its one of the hardest things to do for us lower belts.Judo is nothing without Kazushi.. man do I have horrible Kazushi. ect..

ect...
ect..
If you use logic and reasoning you can figure this stuff out. For me that is the most important lesson my Sifu has taught me, be self-sufficient and understand what you do. If something doesn't make logical sense, its wrong or you don't understand what's going on.

Its good to see you posting here Knifefighter.

Brian L.
Student of Gorden Lu and Gustavo Machado.

[Museumtech]

Just to refresh newbie memories

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY

Try posting the full clip and the full story or just drop it. Meet the man, train with the man, then post an informed opinion.

Peter

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think most people are comparing to UHF fighting in the ring as to who has ground game. It is a sport and the list of rules is endless. No style of fighting has groung game. None of them except BJJ. That seems to be the only thing anyone trains aside from fist battering. If they can't beat you down they shoot for a take down and either a choke or an arm bar. What the hell is that about? The rules only allow certain arm bars and no small joints, which seems to mean the wrists too. It don't matter how good one might be with any particular MA system, if he can't use it, it is no good. So why is everyone picking on WC? I have seen black belt Karate, kung fu, and several other supposedly powerful systems represented by some of these fighters and they still get their brains hammered or arms barred. Maybe even choked half to death. They are all allowed to use the same techniques and no more. So everyone in the ring is fighting using the very same techniques and nothing that would represent their own chosen fighting style. Now and then one of them will surprise everyone by using a karate kick or kung fu move while stand up fighting, but it is not often seen. But by and far it all amounts to who is the strongest and most agressive fighter. Skill is not really all that important as long as you can exibit greater strength. And then of course there is pure luck. Like the first punch out ends with a knock out, Or the first kick landed ends in a broken leg for the kicker. A kick where the shin bone is the contact point can injure the kicker more than the kickee, and this makes it absolutely idiotic. It is like shooting ones self in an effort to kill an opponent.

[Kansuke]

I think most people are comparing to UHF fighting in the ring as to who has ground game. It is a sport and the list of rules is endless. No style of fighting has groung game. None of them except BJJ. That seems to be the only thing anyone trains aside from fist battering. If they can't beat you down they shoot for a take down and either a choke or an arm bar. What the hell is that about? The rules only allow certain arm bars and no small joints, which seems to mean the wrists too. It don't matter how good one might be with any particular MA system, if he can't use it, it is no good. So why is everyone picking on WC? I have seen black belt Karate, kung fu, and several other supposedly powerful systems represented by some of these fighters and they still get their brains hammered or arms barred. Maybe even choked half to death. They are all allowed to use the same techniques and no more. So everyone in the ring is fighting using the very same techniques and nothing that would represent their own chosen fighting style. Now and then one of them will surprise everyone by using a karate kick or kung fu move while stand up fighting, but it is not often seen. But by and far it all amounts to who is the strongest and most agressive fighter. Skill is not really all that important as long as you can exibit greater strength. And then of course there is pure luck. Like the first punch out ends with a knock out, Or the first kick landed ends in a broken leg for the kicker. A kick where the shin bone is the contact point can injure the kicker more than the kickee, and this makes it absolutely idiotic. It is like shooting ones self in an effort to kill an opponent.



This was a joke, right?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

well i think LEE may have a point. If you look at Tim Cartmell for example, 10 years in China studing all three major internal arts, plus has an 8th degree black belt in kung fu sansau and still felt the need to get a black belt in BJJ. BJJ is a great art i love it but i also love the wc. Where your completely wrong at LEE is saying BJJ is the only art with a ground game. Judo has had one since its inception, even a seemly gentle art like aikido has "finishing" techniques for when the enemy is on the ground.

[monji112000]

I think most people are comparing to UHF fighting in the ring as to who has ground game. I don't know what that's supposed to mean. The topic is WC's ground game. UHF .. that supposed to be MMA or UFC?

So why is everyone picking on WC? Nobody is picking on anyone..

just to help you understand the sport a large amount of takedowns in MMA are not just shooting in. They are anything from just falling, to a number of greco,judo,sombo, ect..

examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VAFcw64mYg&feature=PlayList&p=290A5DA6226839E7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQytGr9Gi_E&feature=related

it takes allot of skill to throw someone, and then submit them without hitting someone. You could even make a argument that throwing, and sweeping people fit nice a neatly into WC. Will often find ourselves too close or clinched up allot.
JMO

[El_Nastro]

There is no "ground game" in Wing Chun. I suppose it's possible to work groundfighting & find a way to adapt WC principles to the ground, but in truth WC's simply not designed for that kind of fight. In my opinion, when it comes to groundfighting & WC, the best use of your training-time is to practice not going down in the first place, and if you do, your goal should be getting back up.

We should be aware that there is a difference between a streetfight & a duel. A streetfight is full of variables that simply aren't present in a ringfight, ie, a duel. For example: In MMA it makes perfect sense to take someone to the ground, wrap 'em up, and very very patiently wear them down. I've see it time & time again. One of BJJ's favorite strategies & greatest strengths is patience, and it works great in the ring, or in a 1:1 duel on the beaches of Brazil. In real life though, is patience an intelligent strategy to employ? Would you really want to lay a takedown on your enemy? A takedown is great in the ring or on a beach, but how about on a busted up sidewalk? Can you really afford to assume he doesn't have any buddies waiting to kick the **** out of you while you're wrapped up on the ground? If your objective is to prepare for an emergency confrontation as opposed to fighting a duel, maybe a better strategy would be to train to stay on your feet, and get back up if you're taken down. At least that's what I think, and that's how I work WC.

If you're interested in developing a top-notch ground game though, it'd probably be best to learn BJJ. Trying to adapt WC to groundfighting is possible, but doesn't make much sense. I suppose it'd be like trying to adapt BJJ to a standing/striking style.

[anerlich]

I like Tim Cartmell's approach.

It's also worth reminding people that Andreas Hoffman (sp?), GM of Chi Sim WC, is also a BJJ black belt under Flavio Behring.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why must WC have a ground game. Its like boxing, kickboxing or muay thai. There is no ground game in WC. Some have added Ground techs but in reality they come from some ground fighting system previously learn by that sifu.

***If you want a ground game go learn a ground fighting art like BJJ, Submission wrestling, Clinch fighting, or Collegaite wrestling.


If you want to be able to defend against your average punching street fighter then learn WC. Simple...

WC is not designed to fight on the ground.

Boxing is not designed to fight full contact karate tournments.

MMA is not designed to fight in the Tae Kwon Do Olympics.

Brazilian JiuJitsu is not designed to fight in Boxing Circuit.

If any of the various styles step outside their skill set and fight in competition with rules and regulations different than what they have trained for, all of them will be at a great disadvantage.

The MMA guy will not be able to adapt TKD rules, Full Contact Karate, Chi sao competions, Push hands competitions or a Judo match!

Everyone has a skill set. An in actual non-competitve combat the one with most skills will win.

[Knifefighter]

One of BJJ's favorite strategies & greatest strengths is patience, and it works great in the ring, or in a 1:1 duel on the beaches of Brazil. In real life though, is patience an intelligent strategy to employ? Would you really want to lay a takedown on your enemy? A takedown is great in the ring or on a beach, but how about on a busted up sidewalk? .

Sounds like you don't know much about either BJJ or street situations.

LOL @ the busted up sidewalk... only a guy who has never actually been in a real fight would think something like that.

[El_Nastro]

Sounds like you don't know much about either BJJ or street situations.

LOL @ the busted up sidewalk... only a guy who has never actually been in a real fight would think something like that.


Dude, how many MMA matches (especially in the old days of the UFC) have you seen where the BJJ guy latches onto his opponent while in the guard and waits him out, patiently waiting for the other guy to give him an opeining? There've been times when the ref had to break up the fight after a long time because nothing was happening.

And yeah, If I can avoid going to the ground in the first place, I'd rather be able to do that than deliberately take the fight to the ground & wrestle around on concrete.

But apparently you're the expert, so please expound.

[lkfmdc]

But apparently you're the expert, so please expound.

He's a black belt in BJJ with other grappling in his background so he knows a heck of a lot about grappling. He's also a dog brother, and with respect I say those guys are crazy because they go FULL CONTACT with weapons

[dirtyrat]

Interesting thread.

From a historical point of view, its possible the practitioners were knowledgable of ditang methods, or more likely they never expected to be unarmed. If wing chun fighters were originally rebels trying to overthrow the government of their day than these guys were playing for keeps. Unarmed, hand to hand combat would've been the last thing they would resort to. And it would be foolhardy to grapple a knifefigther.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Interesting thread.

From a historical point of view, its possible the practitioners were knowledgable of ditang methods, or more likely they never expected to be unarmed. If wing chun fighters were originally rebels trying to overthrow the government of their day than these guys were playing for keeps. Unarmed, hand to hand combat would've been the last thing they would resort to. And it would be foolhardy to grapple a knifefigther.

Well reasoned.

[Knifefighter]

Interesting thread.

From a historical point of view, its possible the practitioners were knowledgable of ditang methods, or more likely they never expected to be unarmed. If wing chun fighters were originally rebels trying to overthrow the government of their day than these guys were playing for keeps. Unarmed, hand to hand combat would've been the last thing they would resort to. And it would be foolhardy to grapple a knifefigther.

More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all.

As far as from a historical point of view, people who developed primarily weapons-based systems also tended to develop some type of shielding and/or armor to go with that weaponry.

[Knifefighter]

Dude, how many MMA matches (especially in the old days of the UFC) have you seen where the BJJ guy latches onto his opponent while in the guard and waits him out, patiently waiting for the other guy to give him an opeining? There've been times when the ref had to break up the fight after a long time because nothing was happening.
Newsflash... that only happened during the times when the other guy's defense was good enough to keep the BJJ guy from forcing his game on him. The main strategy of BJJ is takedown, mount, strike, choke. Everything else is secondary to that.


And yeah, If I can avoid going to the ground in the first place, I'd rather be able to do that than deliberately take the fight to the ground & wrestle around on concrete.
Sometimes it's best to keep things standing... sometimes it's better to take it to the ground... sometimes you don't have a choice and one or the other just happens.

[m1k3]

Dude, how many MMA matches (especially in the old days of the UFC) have you seen where the BJJ guy latches onto his opponent while in the guard and waits him out, patiently waiting for the other guy to give him an opeining? There've been times when the ref had to break up the fight after a long time because nothing was happening.

And yeah, If I can avoid going to the ground in the first place, I'd rather be able to do that than deliberately take the fight to the ground & wrestle around on concrete.

But apparently you're the expert, so please expound.

1. BJJ does NOT teach you to deliberately take the fight to the ground all the time. There are a large number of techniques for standing, especially if you focus on the self defense side of BJJ. At the school I went to we did a lot of standing clinch work. I have done WC also and I find the clinch work I learned in BJJ ties in nicely with what I learned doing WC.

2. You may end up on the ground whether or not you want to be there. In the US at least there are a lot of people who have wrestling backgrounds from school, not to mention US football. Its not a bad idea to know what you are doing if you end up there. The wrestler/football player/rugby player approach to fighting is a) double leg tackle, b) sit on his chest, c) feed him his teeth. You don't have to be have to have great striking skills when you have full mount on someone, you don't need to know any submissions either.

3. How come all the guys who know BJJ are loners, out wandering around in the bad part of town alone and friendless only to be attacked by gangs of thugs. Believe it or not BJJ players have friends and travel in groups also.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all.

I may be wrong on this, but if you plan on training to engage someone who has a knife, wouldn't this (generally) imply that you yourself have a weapon?

Grappling with weapons seems friggin' dangerous, and counter to the situation.

At any rate, if I'm faced w/ a knife wielding attacker, and I have no weapon, I'm getting the f*ck out of there if possible. If I DO have a weapon, I'll use it - to get the F*ck out of there if possible.

The whole "grappling with weapons" idea may have value within a certain context (mass melee, maybe), but I'm not sure that training along these lines is an efficient use of time.

[dirtyrat]

"More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all."

My grandfather, his cousins and my other FMA instructors would like to see someone try and grab them. :D

General rule: Run from a knife if you are able. This isn't cowardice, just smart self-defense.

[Knifefighter]

1. BJJ does NOT teach you to deliberately take the fight to the ground all the time. There are a large number of techniques for standing, especially if you focus on the self defense side of BJJ. At the school I went to we did a lot of standing clinch work. I have done WC also and I find the clinch work I learned in BJJ ties in nicely with what I learned doing WC.

2. You may end up on the ground whether or not you want to be there. In the US at least there are a lot of people who have wrestling backgrounds from school, not to mention US football. Its not a bad idea to know what you are doing if you end up there. The wrestler/football player/rugby player approach to fighting is a) double leg tackle, b) sit on his chest, c) feed him his teeth. You don't have to be have to have great striking skills when you have full mount on someone, you don't need to know any submissions either.

3. How come all the guys who know BJJ are loners, out wandering around in the bad part of town alone and friendless only to be attacked by gangs of thugs. Believe it or not BJJ players have friends and travel in groups also.

+1 on everything except for the self-defense aspect of BJJ. BJJ's self-defense is about as sufficient for self-defense as is WC's training is for groundfighting.

[Knifefighter]

"More often than not, if you engage someone who has a knife, you will end up grappling, so understanding how to grapple with a blade would not be foolhardy at all."

My grandfather, his cousins and my other FMA instructors would like to see someone try and grab them. :D

General rule: Run from a knife if you are able. This isn't cowardice, just smart self-defense.

You are not always able to run from a blade. Sometimes engaging is the only option. If someone pulls a blade, often you won't even know it until you are about to be or have been shanked. Sometimes you have no room to maneuver or escape. In these cases, grappling is often you only option.

[m1k3]

+1 on everything except for the self-defense aspect of BJJ. BJJ's self-defense is about as sufficient for self-defense as is WC's training is for groundfighting.

What? You never read Royce Gracies' Jiu Jitsu for Self Defense book? :rolleyes:

[dirtyrat]

"If someone pulls a blade, often you won't even know it until you are about to be or have been shanked."

Exactly!!! A good knifefighter has quick, short movements and more importantly he has deceptive strategies and tactics.

A knife fight will never be fair. Even an untrained guy would rather sneak up on you than announce their intentions.

[Knifefighter]

"If someone pulls a blade, often you won't even know it until you are about to be or have been shanked."

Exactly!!! A good knifefighter has quick, short movements and more importantly he has deceptive strategies and tactics.

A knife fight will never be fair. Even an untrained guy would rather sneak up on you than announce their intentions.

And once you get stabbed, you'd sure better know how to grapple if you want to increase your chances of surviving.

[dirtyrat]

And once you get stabbed, you'd sure better know how to grapple if you want to increase your chances of surviving.

Providing you're in any condition to fight back....
Look, I'm not disagreeing with you about grappling being effective. Even my bjj instructor told me there's no real sure way to deal with a knife attack. Just hope luck's on your side.

Since this is a WC thread, I'll say this about WC and kung fu in general. Some people think cma is a striking only art. And that's where most students fail to realize kung fu's real potential. Kung fu fighters don't just try to hit you. Even if blocked, a good kung fu fighter can take advantage of that and affect his opponent's center of gravity thereby unbalancing him into a vunerable position.

[Kansuke]

The wrestler/football player/rugby player approach to fighting is a) double leg tackle, b) sit on his chest, c) feed him his teeth.




You are simplifying wrestling a bit with that grouping.