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t_niehoff
04-05-2009, 09:11 AM
I've just read "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey " by Kennedy and Guo and think it should be required reading for anyone who either practices or is thinking of taking up a TCMA. It puts the TCMA into a solid historical and cultural perspective, dispels many of the myths associated with TCMA and explains when and how they arose in the first place (for example, how Shaolin had nothing really to do with martial art development in China), and so on. A word of caution: this book isn't for larpers.

It can be found on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Martial-Arts-Training-Manuals/dp/1583941940/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238947485&sr=8-1

or previewed on Google books

http://books.google.com/books?id=L5FVYobC7VsC&dq=Chinese+Martial+Arts+Training+Manuals:+A+Histor ical+Survey&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=z9fYSayZJ4vEMZW3zewO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

Phil Redmond
04-05-2009, 02:44 PM
If you read it and recommended it I'm going to order a copy.

AdrianK
04-05-2009, 03:00 PM
Oh yeah, I skimmed through this at the local bookstore a little while back. I have a couple of the texts they show in the book.

anerlich
04-05-2009, 03:28 PM
this book isn't for larpers

I'm more of a pak'er and a garn'er, so I guess I'm permitted to buy it.

What is a larper, anyway?

t_niehoff
04-05-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm more of a pak'er and a garn'er, so I guess I'm permitted to buy it.

What is a larper, anyway?

LARPer is Live Action Role PlayER.

duende
04-05-2009, 05:30 PM
I looked at the book and found it interesting. But could not take it serious as historical research or a legitimate "survey" as it claims. As it provided no evidence for it's premise. IE... no references, no citations, no bibliography, nada.

Sorry, this book maybe a good read and provide interesting points, but it is not a myth buster.


Here's a review from amazon.com

However, the book presents itself as almost academic, and in this aspiration it falls on its face. The call for scholarship in martial arts writing is well received by this reader, but the authors do not set an inspiring example. One glaring omission is the complete lack of citation. There is not even a bibliography, despite the fact that the bulk of the work is a series of book reviews. This lack of citation is frustrating for one who would be interested in further inquiry. The presentation therefore fails as academic, and rests in the "wanna-be" category. Better editing -- in English and in ESPECIALLY IN THEIR USE OF PINYIN -- would also help this otherwise rare example of a commendable book on this fantastic subject.

anerlich
04-05-2009, 07:45 PM
LARPer is Live Action Role PlayER.

I play the role of a responsible adult at work, and that's live, I guess.

Your post was interesting until you decided to be a smarta$$ with the larper comment BTW. It makes you sound like Basil Fawlty in the Gourmet Night episode, where he puts "No Riff-Raff!" on the flyer advertising the night.

t_niehoff
04-05-2009, 08:03 PM
I looked at the book and found it interesting. But could not take it serious as historical research or a legitimate "survey" as it claims. As it provided no evidence for it's premise. IE... no references, no citations, no bibliography, nada.

Sorry, this book maybe a good read and provide interesting points, but it is not a myth buster.


It's true that the book doesn't footnote its references (though it does mention in the text the scholarly sources it is drawing from). For example, it references the chinese scholarly works that refute the Shaolin myth.



Here's a review from amazon.com

However, the book presents itself as almost academic, and in this aspiration it falls on its face. The call for scholarship in martial arts writing is well received by this reader, but the authors do not set an inspiring example. One glaring omission is the complete lack of citation. There is not even a bibliography, despite the fact that the bulk of the work is a series of book reviews. This lack of citation is frustrating for one who would be interested in further inquiry. The presentation therefore fails as academic, and rests in the "wanna-be" category. Better editing -- in English and in ESPECIALLY IN THEIR USE OF PINYIN -- would also help this otherwise rare example of a commendable book on this fantastic subject.

I see the book itself not as a scholarly treatise, but more as a sourcebook that references the scholarly work already done (in China) and compiles their findings. As such, it can direct you to the specific chinese source.

t_niehoff
04-05-2009, 08:12 PM
I play the role of a responsible adult at work, and that's live, I guess.

Your post was interesting until you decided to be a smarta$$ with the larper comment BTW. It makes you sound like Basil Fawlty in the Gourmet Night episode, where he puts "No Riff-Raff!" on the flyer advertising the night.

As you seem to be someone who spends most of his postings making smartass jibes -- like this one -- I guess you feel that I somehow infringed on your action.

anerlich
04-05-2009, 09:39 PM
As you seem to be someone who spends most of his postings making smartass jibes -- like this one -- I guess you feel that I somehow infringed on your action.


Not really. THanks for your concern all the same.

sanjuro_ronin
04-06-2009, 06:12 AM
I've just read "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey " by Kennedy and Guo and think it should be required reading for anyone who either practices or is thinking of taking up a TCMA. It puts the TCMA into a solid historical and cultural perspective, dispels many of the myths associated with TCMA and explains when and how they arose in the first place (for example, how Shaolin had nothing really to do with martial art development in China), and so on. A word of caution: this book isn't for larpers.

It can be found on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Martial-Arts-Training-Manuals/dp/1583941940/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238947485&sr=8-1

or previewed on Google books

http://books.google.com/books?id=L5FVYobC7VsC&dq=Chinese+Martial+Arts+Training+Manuals:+A+Histor ical+Survey&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=z9fYSayZJ4vEMZW3zewO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

I read that a whiel back on recommendation from David Ross, that sactimonious chi blaster.
I concur, its a great read.

lkfmdc
04-06-2009, 07:30 AM
when your sources are primary documents that neither have ISBN information nor are housed in an established, recognized academic institution then you can not cite in the traditional format

For example, the initial literature on the dead sea scrolls. There are no other copies, they weren't housed in a location you could refer to (ie no box and ailse number, etc)

If you found an original letter of St Paul in the dessert, you certainly could write about it, but how would YOU footnote it?

sanjuro_ronin
04-06-2009, 07:37 AM
when your sources are primary documents that neither have ISBN information nor are housed in an established, recognized academic institution then you can not cite in the traditional format

For example, the initial literature on the dead sea scrolls. There are no other copies, they weren't housed in a location you could refer to (ie no box and ailse number, etc)

If you found an original letter of St Paul in the dessert, you certainly could write about it, but how would YOU footnote it?

A valid point.
If I recall, Brian mentioned the names of many, many MA and the books they wrote and where he got a vast majority of the info.

lkfmdc
04-06-2009, 07:50 AM
A valid point.
If I recall, Brian mentioned the names of many, many MA and the books they wrote and where he got a vast majority of the info.

Yes, Brian, not surprisingly, used teh CORRECT CITATION METHOD for the sources he was using

IE, no ISBN or box/isle/container references then you say "Mr Wong in 1923 in Shanghai self published the mantis boxing book called...."

Really, newbies should not make criticisms on things they don't understand or don't have training in

t_niehoff
04-06-2009, 07:56 AM
Really, newbies should not make criticisms on things they don't understand or don't have training in

If that were the case, this forum would be very quiet.

lkfmdc
04-06-2009, 08:16 AM
If that were the case, this forum would be very quiet.

yeah, but a lot more enjoyable

Yoshiyahu
04-06-2009, 08:37 AM
Personally I think the forum would be a ton better. If non-Wing Chun guys stop posting in the Wing Chun section. An stick to the threads they know best...

sanjuro_ronin
04-06-2009, 08:58 AM
Personally I think the forum would be a ton better. If non-Wing Chun guys stop posting in the Wing Chun section. An stick to the threads they know best...

You have a valid point, are you suggesting that only those with verifiable history in WC post in the WC forum?

sanjuro_ronin
04-07-2009, 05:39 AM
You have a valid point, are you suggesting that only those with verifiable history in WC post in the WC forum?

LOL, well...I guess that suggestion didn't go over very well !
LMAO !!

ChangHFY
04-10-2009, 11:16 AM
Hey t_niehoff,
Thanks for the book find. I haven't read this one yet, so I'll check it out asap.


see ya,

duende
04-10-2009, 11:53 AM
I'd like to add this book to the recommended reading list...

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18034#post18034

Very interesting information in regards to the interaction between the Secret Societies and Shaolin Monks. Surprising really...

t_niehoff
04-10-2009, 01:15 PM
I'd like to add this book to the recommended reading list...

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18034#post18034

Very interesting information in regards to the interaction between the Secret Societies and Shaolin Monks. Surprising really...

Actually, I have read that one too. I agree that in is an interesting book (though expensive). However, most of the "interaction" -- at least significant interaction, like the 5 ancestors of Shaolin starting the triads -- you talk about is reported as folklore and as having been discounted (as factual) my both western and chinese researchers.

duende
04-10-2009, 05:41 PM
Actually, I have read that one too. I agree that in is an interesting book (though expensive). However, most of the "interaction" -- at least significant interaction, like the 5 ancestors of Shaolin starting the triads -- you talk about is reported as folklore and as having been discounted (as factual) my both western and chinese researchers.

I didn't say that the Shaolin started the Triads for one thing.

For another, the book clearly states that not only did the Triads exist before the Southern Shaolin Temples, but also postulates that there had to be interaction and assistance between the two organizations due to similar circumstances, traditions, writings.. and so fourth.

Otherwise, I guess it's how you take the information presented. Somethings can be proven, other things can't. But that doesn't mean that all the pieces of the puzzle are clearly known.

But yes.. the book is expensive!

t_niehoff
04-10-2009, 06:47 PM
I didn't say that the Shaolin started the Triads for one thing.

For another, the book clearly states that not only did the Triads exist before the Southern Shaolin Temples, but also postulates that there had to be interaction and assistance between the two organizations due to similar circumstances, traditions, writings.. and so fourth.

Otherwise, I guess it's how you take the information presented. Somethings can be proven, other things can't. But that doesn't mean that all the pieces of the puzzle are clearly known.

But yes.. the book is expensive!

If you don't mind, could you please tell me where in the book does it say that there definately was a southern shaolin temple (I know it talks about that as a possibility and how it is being investigated, but I don't remember seeing where this was concluded). Also, could you direct me (a page number would suffice) to where the author concluded "that there had to be interaction and assistance between the two organizations due to similar circumstances, traditions, writings.. and so fourth" as I can't recall that either. Thanks.

duende
04-10-2009, 07:12 PM
If you don't mind, could you please tell me where in the book does it say that there definately was a southern shaolin temple (I know it talks about that as a possibility and how it is being investigated, but I don't remember seeing where this was concluded). Also, could you direct me (a page number would suffice) to where the author concluded "that there had to be interaction and assistance between the two organizations due to similar circumstances, traditions, writings.. and so fourth" as I can't recall that either. Thanks.

Correct, the book mentions three possible areas that could possibly be the location of southern shaolin temples.

As for page numbers, there are numerous pages where it gives examples of stories and occasions where there are simularities between Triad folklore stories and poems and those from Shaolin monks.

I don't remember the exact page (I'm at work), but I do recall it even giving an hypothesis that perhaps the monks got some of their folklore traditions from the Triads themselves.

Anyways.. it's a good read. I thought it was both culturally intuitive and well written.

For those interested in this subject matter, our next seminar is going to share some of our family history regarding these matters. I think it will be very informative for both the believers and the cynics.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18037#post18037

t_niehoff
04-10-2009, 07:39 PM
Correct, the book mentions three possible areas that could possibly be the location of southern shaolin temples.


As I recall, the book mentions that different areas have been suggested by different groups as being the location of the legendary southern shaolin temple. However, this does not mean that the existence of a southern shaolin temple has been proved or accepted as true by scholars. The author does mention how there are economic ($) incentives, in tourism for example, involved in this.



As for page numbers, there are numerous pages where it gives examples of stories and occasions where there are simularities between Triad folklore stories and poems and those from Shaolin monks.

I don't remember the exact page (I'm at work), but I do recall it even giving an hypothesis that perhaps the monks got some of their folklore traditions from the Triads themselves.


I agree that the author documented that there was some shared folklore, stories, etc. However, I don't think that supports a conclusion "that there had to be interaction and assistance between the two organizations due to similar circumstances, traditions, writings.. and so fourth" as you indicated. And certainly this was not the author's conclusion.



Anyways.. it's a good read. I thought it was both culturally intuitive and well written.

For those interested in this subject matter, our next seminar is going to share some of our family history regarding these matters. I think it will be very informative for both the believers and the cynics.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18037#post18037

I liked the book as well.

As far as HFY "family history" goes, I'm sorry but in my view until a "family" can first be documented and substantiated (with verifiable, independent evidence of lineage), any family history can't be taken seriously.

duende
04-10-2009, 11:57 PM
As far as HFY "family history" goes, I'm sorry but in my view until a "family" can first be documented and substantiated (with verifiable, independent evidence of lineage), any family history can't be taken seriously.

Fair enough. I guess this kind of outlook stems from one's own experiences. For myself, while I certainly appreciate "independent evidence of lineage", I also know that in reality, things do not always fit so conveniently into such pre-determined exacting formats.

Thankfully, life is much more extensive and complicated than that imo.

Anyways, best to you, and good training to all.

t_niehoff
04-11-2009, 06:04 AM
Fair enough. I guess this kind of outlook stems from one's own experiences. For myself, while I certainly appreciate "independent evidence of lineage", I also know that in reality, things do not always fit so conveniently into such pre-determined exacting formats.

Thankfully, life is much more extensive and complicated than that imo.


In my case,"this kind of outlook" stems from critical thinking -- which requires that we have good (hence, independently verifiable) evidence BEFORE drawing conclusions. In that way, we won't find ourselves believing in things without good evidence to support them.

Chuan fa
04-11-2009, 06:57 AM
I have that book and its one I highly recommend.

duende
04-11-2009, 07:44 AM
In my case,"this kind of outlook" stems from critical thinking -- which requires that we have good (hence, independently verifiable) evidence BEFORE drawing conclusions. In that way, we won't find ourselves believing in things without good evidence to support them.

Critical thinking aside, both believing and disbelieving can sometimes stem from ignorance.

It is important to have "independently verifialble" evidence, but it has to be enough to truly represent the entire picture at hand BEFORE drawing conclusions.... that's all...

t_niehoff
04-11-2009, 04:59 PM
Critical thinking aside, both believing and disbelieving can sometimes stem from ignorance.

It is important to have "independently verifialble" evidence, but it has to be enough to truly represent the entire picture at hand BEFORE drawing conclusions.... that's all...

I, for one, don't put critical thinking "aside".

In terms of WCK history, we're never going to have "the entire picture" -- we're never going to know what happened before the Red Boat era (if there was anything). The best we can hope for, I think, is a clear idea of lineage after that time. Some lineages (those descending from Leung Jan, for instance) are very clear and fairly well documented or corroborated (that the people really existed, that they really practiced wing chun, that they really taught who they say they taught, etc.). In other cases, well, let's just say that things are much, much less clear. I'd be saitisfied with much less that "the entire picture" in those cases, and just happy with some solid evidence as opposed to grandiose claims.

Hendrik
04-11-2009, 05:53 PM
WE knowby evidence the pre Red boat source of the technology of WCK which match even with double blind test; and that is enough. we can track the source and the evolution of the technology.


As for all the other connections....revolution..... those are just similar to some type of "filler" or back ground in a "movie". If one examine it closely. One knows, it doesnt matter. because it doesnt contribute to the identifying of the technology mostly.


story makers are just using the "filler" to make thier His-story sounds great but then there is no substance within it at all; it is just an empty relationship. it doesnt contribute a little bit to the development of the technology of the art.


So, the point is knowing those "filler" doesnt lead one to know more on the technology of the art. those "filler" is great if someone is making a movie. But for really kung fu? contribute nothing. and infact, as we have seen, this type of His-story will even mis-lead one away from the art and get lost.



For example,

Shao Lin, Chan.... those are similar to advertisement slogan,
how many know the real thing? check it out, these people advertise CHAN CHAN but none of them know what is going on. and none of them have a clue on what is the practice.


Chan is a practice of NON attachement. promoting Anti-Qing is a totally ATTACHMENT ACT.

how the heck is a Chan top buddhis monk who take VOW on practice NON ATTACHMENT and in the SAME time promoting the act of ANTI Qing or seriously ATTACHMENT? It totally doesnt make sense.

In fact these people who make this type of His Story doesnt even have a clue thus make all these ridiculus fantasy His-story.



Ming General Zhen Cheen-Kung with Chen Chin-Na fleet to taiwan after the down fall of Ming and lost to the Qing. They then were using Taiwan as a based to start underground, Tien Ti Hui or Hung Mun activity in China . We know by Evidence White Crane of Fujian involve because it has mark in the history of Qing to verify. The rest, WCK? doesnt even have a mark in the history.

Xiao3 Meng4
04-11-2009, 06:34 PM
Chan is a practice of NON attachement. promoting Anti-Qi is a totally ATTACHMENT ACT.


Promoting "Pro-Qi" is also an attachment act.

Hendrik
04-11-2009, 06:50 PM
Promoting "Pro-Qi" is also an attachment act.



True, thus, Shao Lin Chan has a different way of training.

Pro Qi is Daoist related.

duende
04-11-2009, 06:55 PM
Terence,

thanks for taking my "critical thinking aside" comment out of context.

Hendrik,

Ming General Zhen Cheen-Kung with Chen Chin-Na fleet to taiwan after the down fall of Ming and lost to the Qing. They then were using Taiwan as a based to start underground, Tien Ti Hui or Hung Mun activity in China . We know by Evidence White Crane of Fujian involve because it has mark in the history of Qing to verify. The rest, WCK? doesnt even have a mark in the history.

So only your WCK has a mark in the Hung Mun, Tien Tii Hui history?? Ha ha.... how chan of you!

A great example of non-attachment.

I think I'll go back to being non-attached to your posts, and ignore them once again.:rolleyes:

Hendrik
04-11-2009, 07:14 PM
[I] from hendrik : Ming General Zhen Cheen-Kung with Chen Chin-Na fleet to taiwan after the down fall of Ming and lost to the Qing. They then were using Taiwan as a based to start underground, Tien Ti Hui or Hung Mun activity in China . We know by Evidence White Crane of Fujian involve because it has mark in the history of Qing to verify.

The rest, WCK? doesnt even have a mark in the history.



So only your WCK has a mark in the Hung Mun, Tien Tii Hui history?? Ha ha.... how chan of you!




You? me? what is that got to do with You ? me?


It is about reporting the facts in the past.

if there is trace-able evidence; then there is; if there is not; then there is not.

if you have trace able evidence show it and enlightent us here.


BTW: Chan promote living in Now or reporting the facts as it is.

chusauli
04-11-2009, 07:47 PM
To clarify things a bit, WCK is closely tied with historical facts of the famed Koxinga (國姓爺; pinyin: Gúoxìngyé), aka Zheng Chenggong (鄭成功 pinyin: Zhèng Chénggōng; WG: Cheng Ch'eng-kung; Cheng Kung) (1624 - 1662), who was a military leader at the end of the Chinese Ming Dynasty. He was a prominent leader of the anti-Qing movement opposing the Manchu Qing Dynasty, and a Han Chinese general who seized Taiwan from Dutch colonial rule in 1661. (From http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t53877.html)

Fujian Weng Chun White Crane Fist is also very closely related to this turn of events.

More can be found in Dian Murray's book on the Tian Di Hui.

Best regards,

t_niehoff
04-11-2009, 08:35 PM
To clarify things a bit, WCK is closely tied with historical facts of the famed Koxinga (國姓爺; pinyin: Gúoxìngyé), aka Zheng Chenggong (鄭成功 pinyin: Zhèng Chénggōng; WG: Cheng Ch'eng-kung; Cheng Kung) (1624 - 1662), who was a military leader at the end of the Chinese Ming Dynasty. He was a prominent leader of the anti-Qing movement opposing the Manchu Qing Dynasty, and a Han Chinese general who seized Taiwan from Dutch colonial rule in 1661. (From http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t53877.html)

Fujian Weng Chun White Crane Fist is also very closely related to this turn of events.

More can be found in Dian Murray's book on the Tian Di Hui.

Best regards,

Since there is no solid evidence (other than oral fairy tales) that WCK existed prior to the mid-to-late 1800s, I don't see how WCK is "tied" to any of that.

Hendrik
04-11-2009, 08:52 PM
Since there is no solid evidence (other than oral fairy tales) that WCK existed prior to the mid-to-late 1800s, I don't see how WCK is "tied" to any of that.



1, you are correct. there is no sign of WCK yet in 1650 era where Zheng Chenggong was active or at the begining of the organization of the Hung Mun or Tian Tee Hui. or the era of Fujian White Crane was created.



2, One of the solid evidence we know on WCK link to the Hung Mun is from the Yik Kam's salutation stanza and six point half pole stanza which match and related to Hung Mun in the Taiping Era, or also the era of Lee Man Mau's Red Bandana uprising.

Notice Red Boat opera actor Lee Man Mau is the leader of this Red Bandana uprising. and Lee himself is a practitioner of White Crane of Fujian.


From Yik Kam's stanza, that also lead us to found out the activity between Canton and Shang Hai which link to the Shaing Hai's uprising where head quater located in Yue Yuan. These activity one could find in history book. and Rene and Robert have written an article on it in details.


Again,
that is the 1850 era not the mid to end of 1600 era where Zheng Chenggong was active or at the begining of the Hung Mun or Tian Tee Hui.




3, As we now know, technically, WCK is a evolution of White Crane of Fujian.

Thus, WCK is not likely to exist even in 1650 era.

Not until perhaps 100 to 150 years later.

The reason for that is that there was an evolution within White Crane of Fujian around late 1700.

Since within the SLT kuen kuit passed down by red boat opera actor Yik Kam was using the pre late 1700 White Crane terminology in this kuen kuit, from that, we could safely said SLT was created prio to the White Crane late 1700 evolution. otherwise, the SLT Kuen Kuit will use the post late 1700 white crane evolution terminology.


So, that lead us to know the creation of SLT has to be between 1700 and 1800.




4,
At the Era of 1600,

Robert is right White Crane of Fujian was recorded in Qing history that supporting Zheng's in Taiwan.

When the Qing finally take over Taiwan, it is recorded A White Crane of Fujian master Bai Jieh brought the art of Inch jin Join power back to Fujian on late 1600.




The above are factual activity/ history mark that had happen and can be traced by evidence.





4,
As for the Southern Shao Lin...etc. that those who promote the story line needs to supply evidence which track the Chinese History and official history of Qing. Otherwise, it is an un proven story until it is proven.

and we expect the same amount of specific details including the type of art mother art of WCK to be present similar to the above to be presented to support the Southern Shao Lin story.

Mr Punch
04-11-2009, 09:50 PM
Really, newbies should not make criticisms on things they don't understand or don't have training inNewbies in what? I know a lot of kung fu people who've never been near enough to academia to know the correct citation methods... all somebody did was point out that it didn't look right without proper citations. So are you saying you can't post unless you've got a Masters?! :D Pompous twat. :rolleyes:

And as for not having newbies posting on the board being more interesting, I don't think a bunch of old ****s agreeing with each other is all that exciting! :p

t_niehoff
04-12-2009, 06:51 AM
1, you are correct. there is no sign of WCK yet in 1650 era where Zheng Chenggong was active or at the begining of the organization of the Hung Mun or Tian Tee Hui. or the era of Fujian White Crane was created.

2, One of the solid evidence we know on WCK link to the Hung Mun is from the Yik Kam's salutation stanza and six point half pole stanza which match and related to Hung Mun in the Taiping Era, or also the era of Lee Man Mau's Red Bandana uprising.


Having a similar "salutation stanza" implies that there may be a link, but it doesn't prove that there is a link or how direct that link was. As the book I recommended indicates, the Chinese were prolific "borrowers".



Notice Red Boat opera actor Lee Man Mau is the leader of this Red Bandana uprising. and Lee himself is a practitioner of White Crane of Fujian.


Otherthan stories, how do we"know" Lee was a practitioner of Fujiam White Crane?



From Yik Kam's stanza, that also lead us to found out the activity between Canton and Shang Hai which link to the Shaing Hai's uprising where head quater located in Yue Yuan. These activity one could find in history book. and Rene and Robert have written an article on it in details.


And that's all speculation, a house of cards built upon questionable premises. Taking a few pieces of a complex puzzle and then speculating on what the puzzle really looks like (it must look like this) essentially is projection (projecting your desired conclusion).



Again,
that is the 1850 era not the mid to end of 1600 era where Zheng Chenggong was active or at the begining of the Hung Mun or Tian Tee Hui.


Which may or may not have anything to do with WCKdevelopment.



3, As we now know, technically, WCK is a evolution of White Crane of Fujian.

Thus, WCK is not likely to exist even in 1650 era.

Not until perhaps 100 to 150 years later.

The reason for that is that there was an evolution within White Crane of Fujian around late 1700.


I tend to agree with you that there is a relationship between white crane and WCK, I don't think we can know for certain what that relationship is. There are many possibilities.



Since within the SLT kuen kuit passed down by red boat opera actor Yik Kam was using the pre late 1700 White Crane terminology in this kuen kuit, from that, we could safely said SLT was created prio to the White Crane late 1700 evolution. otherwise, the SLT Kuen Kuit will use the post late 1700 white crane evolution terminology.


People can steal kuit from other sources -- again, the book I recommended goes into this -- so just because you have the kuit doesn't prove anything. Also, we can'tknow precisely when the kuit was adopted into your lineage. While your oral tradition may tell you it was at a certain time, that isn't proof. It could be another fairly tale.



So, that lead us to know the creation of SLT has to be between 1700 and 1800.


Instead of trying to figure out when WCK was developed based on oral traditions, based on questionable premises, etc., let's look at evidence that can be independently verifiable: actual lineage. We can only trace WCK back with certainty to the Leng Jan era, mid-to-late 1800s). If we can't show with independently verifiable evidence that someone actually lived and practiced WCK, we can't say that WCK existed.



When the Qing finally take over Taiwan, it is recorded A White Crane of Fujian master Bai Jieh brought the art of Inch jin Join power back to Fujian on late 1600.


Recorded? When? By whom? How do we know that is accurate?

Also, "inch power", like so many other aspects, can develop indepdently, is part of many martial arts, etc. These things are not unique.



4,
As for the Southern Shao Lin...etc. that those who promote the story line needs to supply evidence which track the Chinese History and official history of Qing. Otherwise, it is an un proven story until it is proven.

and we expect the same amount of specific details including the type of art mother art of WCK to be present similar to the above to be presented to support the Southern Shao Lin story.

Lots of people want to talk WCK history, but the history of WCK is a history of its practitioners: lineage. It's silly to talk about how your lineage goes back to Shaolin if you can't prove your lineage one step back. And when we focus on lineage, the best we can do is go back to the mid-1800s. If you can't show that someone really existed and really practiced WCK before that, you can't say that WCK existed before that.

chusauli
04-12-2009, 09:56 AM
I would like to correct myself, that White Crane Eng Chun (Weng Chun) is related to the era of Zhèng Chénggōng; (Wades Giles romanization : Cheng Ch'eng-kung; Cheng Kung) during 1624 - 1662. This is written in their Quan Pu (Fist Register), which is readily accessable in Taiwan and can be ordered on the internet.

WCK proper as we practice it is from the era of the Red Boat Opera (1850's), in fact ,an alternate translation is "Praise of the Opera Boxing". Prior to the Opera Boat generation, we cannot be sure, and is speculation and source of debate for scholars and historians. For example, we can verify Leung Jan and surmise he had teachers Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bao. Wong Wah Bao as we know is mentioned in all verbal accounts of WCK oral history of the major branches of WCK.

WCK is related to White Crane Eng Chun, but is not White Crane Eng Chun - we do not have an emphasis on San Zhan Quan (aka, San Chin - 3 Battle Fist), considered the beginning and ending of White Crane Eng Chun. We in WCK do Siu Lien Tao or Siu Nim Tao.

White Crane Eng Chun is probably an ancestor or a major influence on the development of WCK - the five element movements can be found in WCK proper today. After seeing the Xiao Zi Zhuang of the Emei 12 Zhuang system, and comparing that to Siu Lien Tao, I would say that Emei 12 Zhuang is also a great influence on Siu Lien Tao, the principle set of WCK. Emei 12 Zhuang and White Crane Eng Chun are in all probably the ancestors of WCK, from their signature moves and core body applications.

Just my $0.02.

Best regards,

Hendrik
04-12-2009, 12:38 PM
Robert,

Great summary.

For me, it is the technology which I am upto. meaning, get the key precise so one can turn on the ancestor's treasure in SLT.


As for the "filler", as I mention above, those are just like the back ground story in a movie. it is great if it is a big time back ground. as we know, we do related some how with the Red Boat Opera uprising which link to Shang Hai....etc.

But, those are nice to have instead of the must have.


I am happy to be able to decode the technical writing definition of the past so I know how Yik Kam in 1850 practice SLT. the bottom line is White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang process does contibute the SLT work toward its full potential.

as for the movie "filler" , those are good story when telling to the students and grand students.... but contribute nothing much.




As for Terence's book,

this is a good book, but this is just one of the book.
there have much more which were written in classical chinese where it is not exist in the translation Western world yet. As Robert have the collection from the indept writting of the White Crane and the Emei 12 zhuang.

Not to mention, one needs to go to the zone of fire to learn about what is going on instead of just based on a book. otherwise that is still very acedamical non realistic or even bias.





as for the history of Bai Cieh within Fujian White crane, the return of the Inch Power to Fujian, and the uniqueness and the link to Wing Chun kuen, the following site from the White Crane of Fujian union is a good reference.

http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/origin.htm

清乾嘉年間,
永春白鶴拳第三或第四代傳人五枚師太,在永春白鶴拳的雄厚基礎上,加以創新,並將這種嶄新的拳法傳給嚴詠春 ,由嚴詠春與其夫梁博儔發揚光大,人們稱這由嚴詠春傳教出來的新拳法為「詠春拳」(永春拳),也就是現時風 行世界的廣東「詠春拳」。


as for the estimation of the White Crane people WCK is created around mid 1700.

NOte: this estimation from the White Crane side does converge with our estimation where WCK was created between 1700 and late 1700.




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康熙二十二年(一六八三年)夏曆六月,康熙命福建水師提督施瑯進兵台灣,八月與與鄭克塽謝和,台灣終與大陸 統一,隸屬福建省,兩岸民眾自由往來,其時施「從台灣帶來一名師白戒,亦是教練寺傳授的,入永春教」節力」 (寸勁節力),從此永(春)拳更增愈好」,使白鶴技法更加完善。

鄭寵,林添等多人隨其學藝,後人稱白戒為「後永春名師」,傳人中以鄭寵,林添,鄭畔,辜初,辜榮五人最傑出 ,世稱「後五虎」。

白戒在永春傳授「寸勁節力」後,使白鶴拳技術內容更加豐富完善,彈抖震勁的特點更加突出。

Brief translation:
and Bai Cieh was brought to Fujian from Taiwan by the Qing Chief general Sze lang after the eight luna month of 1682. ...

Bai Jie taugh Inch Jin join power in Eng Chun of Fujian, and this type of Jin make the Bounce, Shake vibrate Jin of White Crane to a higher level.





anyone who is interested to dig up more, go a head, there are plenty of resources in chinese which could be dig deep into these days.


Just some thoughts.