Sparring Question

[dnovice]

Hello guys,

When I spar i keep getting faked out with kicks, that either go high mid or low. Low I'm not too worried about because I instinctively react with my legs. The problem arises when my jkd sparring partner uses mid to high gate attacks. For example I might assume he's going mid and use a guan sao only to find out he was going high and get clobbered.

My first solution to this was to use the Kwan sao. However, I'm not able to get it of in time especially when i'm in the middle of doing something else.

Any suggestions on dealing with this upredictable kicks: ie high or mid gate kicks??

[Liddel]

Never sparred a JKD guy but several of my sparring partners are TKB's....

I find the easiest way to stiffle thier kicks is to punch !
Sounds to simple i know, but good straight punching from in close at any sign of a comming kick is a good start to work your timing and not let them dictate timing to you.

Its also easy to keep your guard on the kicking side and cross with the opposite side making your punch sucessful while protecting against the kick.
Im south paw while sparring partners are natural so....you can picture that in your head. :rolleyes:


My first solution to this was to use the Kwan sao. However, I'm not able to get it of in time especially when i'm in the middle of doing something else.

RANGE is the decider for ME..... with regard to your Kwan - some of the younger guys where i train are moving too much and over exagerating Kwan moving hands far from thier body - so without seeing you first hand make sure your only moving the hands inches like really small movements and let the body bring the force to them from turning stepping etc..... Its not forms its application !

That said i find im best protected using actions like Dai Bong or guarn when the opponent is closing the gap and launching kicks - the intention is more obvious to me and gives me ample time to react as they are further away. space = time.

I will say IMO - chasing kicks is the same as chasing hands - the first thing we as VT people want to do is control the center and be aggressive hence when you feel a kicks comming PUNCH !

Lin wan kuen is good for blocking if you maintain good elbow position as one pucnh goes out the other returning sides elbow covers ribs etc with body movement thrown in your dynamic and hard to catch hopefully :o

Just a few points that i find useful, good sparring mate.

DREW

[dnovice]

Just a few points that i find useful, good sparring mate.

DREW

Some very good points. I will try them out. Thanks liddel.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello guys,

When I spar i keep getting faked out with kicks, that either go high mid or low. Low I'm not too worried about because I instinctively react with my legs. The problem arises when my jkd sparring partner uses mid to high gate attacks. For example I might assume he's going mid and use a guan sao only to find out he was going high and get clobbered.

My first solution to this was to use the Kwan sao. However, I'm not able to get it of in time especially when i'm in the middle of doing something else.

Any suggestions on dealing with this upredictable kicks: ie high or mid gate kicks??

Hit him before he kicks you.

[Lindley]

Dnovice, very good topic. I would recommend that, if you want to help yourself improve on handling kicks, you should consider what we call a distance awareness drill. In this drill, you start off using a kick shield. You must pretend the kick shield is part of your body and don't rely on it for protection. You have good kickers go at you for a preset time. The key is that there are two things you can do with a kicker - stay out of range and Jam them. So, this will help you practice understanding what that range is as well as help develop the timing to enter and jam the kicker. Once you have gotten comfortable with this drill, you can move to wearing just a chest protector but keeping your hands behind your back. you will find this is an eye opening experience as you must let go of your fear of being so open. On the same token, now you can use your legs to stock certain kicks in addition to training keeping out of range and now jamming them with your dim gerk or your body in general.
Another thing you may want to consider practising comes from Cung Le (and I am sure others) training where you can use the same side arm to scoop and grab the kick, while the other hand heads for the center line and you can simultaneously take out the remaining leg. You should consider not training hand techniques to stop the legs. The leg is a powerful tool that when placed correctly can do a lot of damage to your limbs. You can also consider attacking the kick by using a technique in weak areas (i.e. near the knee) or punching the thigh.

Good Luck with your training

[Lindley]

In rereading your post - "For example I might assume he's going mid and use a guan sao only to find out he was going high and get clobbered. " A key word here is assumption. As well as it sounds like you are stationary ready to "block". One should treat a feint as real. To utilize true Ving Tsun Kung Fu effectively in sparring you must avoid standing, staring, circling aimlessly and being less inactive against your opponent. This does not mean rush in, but just that once the bell sounds you have to close that gap immediately. Ving Tsun Kung fu should not be studied as a system of blocks for every technique. Good kickers will use you for target practice if there is any hesitation on your part. Hence, per my previous post, you will need to gain better understanding of distance awareness and develop good timing to truly disable the effectiveness of your opponents kicking. Also note that there is the strategy of using frustration. After he throws a few kicks you might notice wider openings for you to enter, as kicking takes a lot out of you.

Good luck with your kung fu

[Phil Redmond]

This thread is what martial artists should be about. Helping each other out. I hope is stays positive even if we disagree on methods.
At about 2:07 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A there is a gan sao that covers high and middle attack. But you don't want to block with the ulna bone against a kick. Use the outer (yang) side of the arm between the radius and ulna bones.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys, I can honestly tell you that, doing the whole " if he does this do that and if he moves here do this and if the kick is here do that" line of thinking is what is getting you in trouble in the first place.

[dnovice]

The key is that there are two things you can do with a kicker - stay out of range and Jam them.
Good Luck with your training
Thanks man. Those are some good drills. I like the no hands one in particular.


One should treat a feint as real. To utilize true Ving Tsun Kung Fu effectively in sparring you must avoid standing, staring, circling aimlessly and being less inactive against your opponent. This does not mean rush in, but just that once the bell sounds you have to close that gap immediately.

very good point, lindley.


This thread is what martial artists should be about. Helping each other out. I hope is stays positive even if we disagree on methods.
At about 2:07 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A there is a gan sao that covers high and middle attack. But you don't want to block with the ulna bone against a kick. Use the outer (yang) side of the arm between the radius and ulna bones.

Thank you phil. Its good to see a visualization.


Guys, I can honestly tell you that, doing the whole " if he does this do that and if he moves here do this and if the kick is here do that" line of thinking is what is getting you in trouble in the first place.

Sanjuro, I understand that danger. My mentality is that once the fight has started I do whatever comes out. if i get hit i just eat the punch/kick and treat it as a sacrifice for achieving a higher goal to hit the person. I think the only thinking in a fight should be in terms of strategies, and weak points etc.

That said I do think it is good to familiarize yourself with the options for defending certain attacks so that you have the option of using it. (just an extra option.)

Thanks for all your responses, they are helpful. I'll try them out.

[Edmund]

My first solution to this was to use the Kwan sao. However, I'm not able to get it of in time especially when i'm in the middle of doing something else.

Any suggestions on dealing with this upredictable kicks: ie high or mid gate kicks??

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're in the middle of doing something else like attacking with your hands and your opponent has the opportunity to kick other high or mid level? At that point your kwan sao is too slow to use because your hands are doing something else?

I think there's a number of things I'd suggest (some of this you may already know but didn't spell out in your post):
1. Like others have said, if your "something else" isn't pressuring the opponent to defend, you give them the chance to kick. It's very hard to prevent them from kicking 100% of the time but the more effectively you can attack, the less time you give them to throw the kick well.

2. Given that you haven't pressured the opponent and they HAVE the chance to kick mid or high, you're devoting your hands to attacking them (or whatever you're doing) so much that you can't change to the kwan sao quick enough when it's coming at you. So there's an imbalance there, you're committing to your thing too much and when defence time comes you aren't in position for defence. The kwan sao can defend both your mid and head level but not if your hands are too busy doing something else.

If you can't pressure your opponent to defend, you should be ready to be attacked. Make a little effort to keeping your arms in position to defend. There will always be a bit of give and take strategically. You can try pressure him but he may avoid it or survive it and you let up, THEN he'll have his chance to attack and he's going to go for your openings, the bigger the better.

Your guard position is a neutral posture - quick to either attack or defend or move around. So if the opponent is not busy defending, use crisp attacks that return to the guard position so you're ready to defend or move if the opponent attacks back.

3. There will always be occasions where you happen to try something just at the moment they kick. You won't be in your guard position and ready to switch to kwan sao. You'll have to interrupt what you're doing to defend. The nature of kwan sao is that you're using both hands possibly and your body is facing a particular way. This sometimes makes it difficult to use in time when you are interrupted.

Instead you use your shin to cover the mid level raising your knee up, one arm to cover the head level. Generally you can tell what side of your body the kick is attacking easier than what level. Even while doing something else, you have the arm and leg of that side ready for defence - Feet at a width that you can raise your knee to defend, Arm bent ready to cover the head. Your other hand can be more free.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Guan Sao/kwan sau against a good hook kick = ouch.

Defending kicks with hand shapes? Not generally a good idea. Musculature, weight of limb + hip rotation stacks odds heavily in favour of the leg.

A couple of good points. Treat feint like real. Agree.

A good kicker has the ability to kick low, mid or high. His "tells" e.g. hip motion just prior to execution, will be the same irrespective of what level he kicks. So, on that basis it may be worthwhile developing a 'fits all' cover that uses a knee up position (to defend against low kick), as well as elbow/arm cover to head (to defend against possibility of mid of high). That said, the cover should be designed in such a way that you can immediately follow up with strikes.

Aside from that, the skills to develop to negate kicks (and other offensive and counter offensive tools) are timing and distance based. So perhaps this should be your topic of research, rather than hand shapes. The successful fighter is usually the one who dictates the pace.

One thing to be commended though, is that you are sparring for which you have my absolute respect! ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Guan Sao/kwan sau against a good hook kick = ouch.

Defending kicks with hand shapes? Not generally a good idea. Musculature, weight of limb + hip rotation stacks odds heavily in favour of the leg. . . .
Against a hook kick there are different methods. But I've used gan, kwan, double lop against kicks when I fought. And I am an advocate of hand shapes against kicks. Myself and our fighters use them successfully in full contact events.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hopefully this illustrates my point;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_HjNOGgVk

Phil, clearly you are way tougher than Vegeta. And he's pretty d@mn tough.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Once again we have an assertion that magical mysterious hand shapes could stop kicks in a full contact fight. I have to take this with a pinch of salt, with the assumption being that 'full contact' can be applied to cover many arenas where even people with dubious skill levels can enter for the sake of a tussle.

For the safety of you and your guys you should be glad that you haven't met any good kickers Phil. And I hope that continues.

Hand shapes (like guan sau/kwan sau) do not provide an adequate support structure to stop a (good) kick.

I wanted to find an example of a good kicker and looked up a Buakaw fighting reel. Interestingly, I found this fight between him and my brother's mate (my brother's mate gets beaten unfortunately). It shows a couple of kicks which would send shivers down my spine if I saw someone trying to arm block them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6oePazo1Oc&NR=1

On the topic I found this article from a Wing Chun man who strongly advocates NOT blocking and cites an example of a couple of guys who broke their arms attempting to block kicks;

http://www.wing-chun-training.com/articles/counters-for-kicks.htm

This article gives you an idea of the type of cover I suggested as well as other tactics. It also confirms that a cover should adequately cover all areas of attack from kicks i.e. low, mid and high level;

http://www.muaythaikickboxingtraining.com/muay_thai_round_kick_defence.html

This article has some good photos to illustrate a high (head) cover;

http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=674

Lastly, the point I want to emphasize is that although a good cover should be established, the goal should remains to hit back immediately.

Suki

[sanjuro_ronin]

Once again we have an assertion that magical mysterious hand shapes could stop kicks in a full contact fight. I have to take this with a pinch of salt, with the assumption being that 'full contact' can be applied to cover many arenas where even people with dubious skill levels can enter for the sake of a tussle.

Where was magic mentioned ??

For the safety of you and your guys you should be glad that you haven't met any good kickers Phil. And I hope that continues.

No need to be condesending.


Hand shapes (like guan sau/kwan sau) do not provide an adequate support structure to stop a (good) kick.

Depends on how they are done.


I wanted to find an example of a good kicker and looked up a Buakaw fighting reel. Interestingly, I found this fight between him and my brother's mate (my brother's mate gets beaten unfortunately). It shows a couple of kicks which would send shivers down my spine if I saw someone trying to arm block them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6oePazo1Oc&NR=1

One of the many reason that I do not advocate RIGID blocking of kicks with the arms, and while Buakaw is a "freak", anyone that has done full contact knows that Blocking a kick like that is the last resort, not the first.


Lastly, the point I want to emphasize is that although a good cover should be established, the goal should remains to hit back immediately.

or before, or during...

[Phil Redmond]

. . .

For the safety of you and your guys you should be glad that you haven't met any good kickers Phil. And I hope that continues.

Hand shapes (like guan sau/kwan sau) do not provide an adequate support structure to stop a (good) kick. . . .
I trained with Yoel Judah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=areuoTC_IQE and I fought Jonas Nunez. They are excellent kickers along with others I fought. You assume a lot don't you? If a person trains something over and over they can eventually do it.
And btw. I'm not trying to impress you. I'm simply stating fact. ;)

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Phil,

That was a really good clip you posted of Judah in a kickboxing match. I'm not a huge fan of the way that the kicks are chambered in those types of matches but in any event it had all the elements that I enjoy watching; resistance, movement, timing, spontaneity.

Problem is, that there is no correlation between
(a) that (good) clip;
(b) what you are advocating (arm blocking against kicks), and;
(c) your own Wing Chun clips.

None.

Suki

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil,

That was a really good clip you posted of Judah in a kickboxing match. I'm not a huge fan of the way that the kicks are chambered in those types of matches but in any event it had all the elements that I enjoy watching; resistance, movement, timing, spontaneity.

Problem is, that there is no correlation between
(a) that (good) clip;
(b) what you are advocating (arm blocking against kicks), and;
(c) your own Wing Chun clips.

None.

Suki
The correlation was that you said I haven't met any good kickers without knowing whom I've met or whom I've fought. There is no way you can know that. The bottom line is I have and can still block strong kicks with my arms and so can my students who train for competition. It's not impossible as you seem to think. What else can I tell you?

[Lucas]

im with lidell on this one. i dont practice wing chun but i have definately sparred heavy kickers. range and distance are of the most important in conjunction with timing IMO. using your range and timing to get inside for a stop hit/clinch/throw based on your opponents caedence.

like the saying;

box a brawler, brawl a boxer.

sometimes i feel, punch a kicker, kick a puncher can be adequate here as well.

also, if you feel your kicks outclass your opponents, you can just beat him at his own game and force him to change tactics. then take advantage.

just a couple thoughts from me.

[Phil Redmond]

Hello guys,

When I spar i keep getting faked out with kicks, that either go high mid or low. Low I'm not too worried about because I instinctively react with my legs. The problem arises when my jkd sparring partner uses mid to high gate attacks. For example I might assume he's going mid and use a guan sao only to find out he was going high and get clobbered.

My first solution to this was to use the Kwan sao. However, I'm not able to get it of in time especially when i'm in the middle of doing something else.

Any suggestions on dealing with this upredictable kicks: ie high or mid gate kicks??
I see that you're in the "city". I'm in Chinatown's Columbus Park Sats. 3:30pn - 5:00pm. We train in the Pavilion in case it rains. You're very welcome to come by and I can show you my methods. Or you're welcome to come by and just watch. Here's a clip of where we train. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A

[dnovice]

I see that you're in the "city". I'm in Chinatown's Columbus Park Sats. 3:30pn - 5:00pm. We train in the Pavilion in case it rains. You're very welcome to come by and I can show you my methods. Or you're welcome to come by and just watch. Here's a clip of where we train. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A

Hey Phil, I'll definitely swing by and check out your class. Thanks for the invite. I'll send you a pm and let you know when i'm coming by.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Phil, I'll definitely swing by and check out your class. Thanks for the invite. I'll send you a pm and let you know when i'm coming by.
That'll be great. Online discussions are one thing. But when people meet face to face it's usually a lot more friendly because most people are really good at heart. A good example is Dale aka Knifefighter. He's a really knowledgeable, skilled, and nice guy in person. He just enjoys jerking WC people's chains. ;)

[omarthefish]

Of course you can block kicks with arms/hands. People do it all the time....especially high kicks *duh*...

You just need to have the complete package. Just throwing an arm up there may get it broke but as long as you are either cutting the angle or jamming it or something else along those lines, then you are good to go.

[Saltire]

Another option that I find works well for me is attacking the opponent's legs.

A good straight kick to the groin, or kicking his inner thigh can be a fantastic tool against a kicker. If you're both wearing groin protection and aware that it can be introduced into the match, no misunderstandings should arise. You can kick his kicking leg, or supporting leg- the latter being easier.

The basic premise of "kicking the post", in conjunction with forward pressure from your hands should make a lot of difference. Nice thread.

[Phil Redmond]

Of course you can block kicks with arms/hands. People do it all the time....especially high kicks *duh*...

You just need to have the complete package. Just throwing an arm up there may get it broke but as long as you are either cutting the angle or jamming it or something else along those lines, then you are good to go.
Definitely you can. I have one student who studied in Thailand when he was in the Corps and he can KICK. There are also a few others who have monster kicks. I'll make a vid of the Chinatown class this Sat. with the guys blocking full power kicks with their "arms" ;)

[omarthefish]

The irony of the comment, for me, is that even in Muay Thai gyms kicks are blocked with arms. Only low kicks are always blocked with legs. I know a lot of MT schools teach to raise the knee to block everything from nearly the armpit down but the school I trained at for a bit was more conservative. Basically everything from the waist up was blocked with arms. Horriblly designed website but very authentic Muay Thai: www.imissu.org

[Liddel]

Hand shapes (like guan sau/kwan sau) do not provide an adequate support structure to stop a (good) kick.
Suki

If its just a basic static shape i agree LOL, but moreover 'what is adequate' ...

There are many examples of guys that can kick so well they can break you even when your in the most advantageous position.
MA's are for survival ring or street IMO, but one has to realise that your own abilities physical or otherwise have thier limits.

That said ive had times where my own inproper use of hands to block kicks hasnt turned out how i like :o but i still endeavour to work those actions because ive had more times where they have worked a treat :rolleyes:

However i dont compete in a ring consistently and nor so far do my sparring partners, we are not proffessionals so i know where i stand. I may choose a different set of tools if i were to face Mirko in a dark alley... said tools being my legs and my ability to use them in RUNNING :p LOL

DREW

[Phil Redmond]

Speaking of Jonas Nunez, I met him last night at an MMA event in NJ. He's still fighting at 50 years old .
Some of his students competed in the MMA fights. He says there's some over 50 guys who still fight
Hmmmm . . .Who knows?
Yeah, that's Bruce Leroy (without the glow), in the background talking to the movie guy Warrington Hudlin.