OT: Gates' defense plans

[Mr Punch]

Cuts to:

F22 production
shipbuilding waste
Future Combat Systems
presidential helicopter
new bomber development
communications satellite building
anti-missile systems
navy and airforce reduction

Extra budget to:

drones
special forces training
army and marine corps numbers
body armour
armoured vehicles
surveillance and intel

I think it's a good budget. Anyone else?

[Drake]

Concur. ...

[Mr Punch]

This could be a boring thread.

[Mr Punch]

OK, to spice it up a bit...

Shaolinlueb: why do you think it doesn't make any difference?

And those of you who supported Bush but think that this is a good way to go, what do you think has changed, or what do you think could change that makes this a sensible policy when you thought that Cheney and Wolfowitz's par-for-the-course warmongering escalation madness was a good idea? (Please feel free to ignore my contentious definition of Bush's policy and answer sensibly. I'm just busting your balls)

[golden arhat]

it can be argued ( so i will) that anmy nation just interested in "defence" would just invest in nuclear submarines and nothign else

a moving nuclear weapons platform thats undetectable, cool huh.

[Drake]

It's trying to strike a balance between symmetric and asymmetric warfare is all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A military force should be the best trained, with the best equipment and the SMALLEST possible.
Especially in this day and age.
Unless you look at the military as an "offensive force".
Peacekeeping and things of that nature should be distinct from the military since the training of one ( taking lives and destruction) is opposit of the other ( protecting lives and rebuilding).

[Drake]

The US Army METL is not the same as Canada's. We need to be able to wage and win conventional wars as well as handle terrorism.

[WinterPalm]

So wait a minute, 300million Americans are spending how much to fight 200 dirty lunatics in caves?
You'd think the military would be the last thing on the minds of Americans with how their country is effectively rotting from the core.

[Drake]

So wait a minute, 300million Americans are spending how much to fight 200 dirty lunatics in caves?
You'd think the military would be the last thing on the minds of Americans with how their country is effectively rotting from the core.

It's a LOT more than 200 dirty lunatics in a cave. And don't forget we have other things to deal with as well. NK, anyone? And we're still in Kosovo.... thank you, President Clinton...

[David Jamieson]

Looks like Gates is taking a lesson from the UK.

small super capable, ultra highly trained flexible and scalable units.

I would say it's a good model moving forward, as military models go.

[WinterPalm]

It's a LOT more than 200 dirty lunatics in a cave. And don't forget we have other things to deal with as well. NK, anyone? And we're still in Kosovo.... thank you, President Clinton...

I know, I was being facetious...there's at least 210 bad guys out there.;)
But really, when I occasionally flip on the American news, Canadian news or even the BBC, it's all about how America is imploding...and yet world domination still takes the forefront?

I'd like to see America pull all of it's troops to it's own borders, have a well equipped DEFENSE force, and stop spending half a trillion on its war machine, and maybe use the money for something worthwhile.

[Shaolinlueb]

mr punch

F22 production - i really wanted aircraft like robotech but thats still a couple years off.
shipbuilding waste - i do not understand this. they talking about recycling more or cutting recycling?
Future Combat Systems - could help us down the line.
presidential helicopter - agree unless his is 30 years old.
new bomber development - hmm i guess our bombers are good.
communications satellite building - could always use good comm satellites especially if we still have analog ones out there.
anti-missile systems - with the nuclear missle population growing smaller i can see this.
navy and airforce reduction - let each service grow on its own.

Extra budget to:

drones - terminator will happen, mark my words.
special forces training - agree with.
army and marine corps numbers - let each service grow on its own.
body armour - dragon armor for the win
armoured vehicles - yep
surveillance and intel - always

[sanjuro_ronin]

The US Army METL is not the same as Canada's. We need to be able to wage and win conventional wars as well as handle terrorism.

Well...you don't really NEED to do that.

[Shaolinlueb]

I'd like to see America pull all of it's troops to it's own borders, have a well equipped DEFENSE force, and stop spending half a trillion on its war machine, and maybe use the money for something worthwhile.

unfortunately we are the police of the world. USA gets scrutinized for policing. then we will get scrutinized for not helping. the world needs to make up their minds. it will go to sh*t in some areas if we leave. USA is in places because we are head of u.n. security council.


Well...you don't really NEED to do that.

unfortunately we do SJ. when sh*t goes wrong in the world, who does everyone look at to help? the USA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

unfortunately we do SJ. when sh*t goes wrong in the world, who does everyone look at to help? the USA.

Well, you tend to not be alone, though you do tend to send more and other countries that advantage of that and send less.
Now, lets be honest though, when you do get involved its not to FIGHT a war, and it shoudln't be, but to enforce peace and that, like I stated earlier, is a different ball of wax.

[Shaolinlueb]

Well, you tend to not be alone, though you do tend to send more and other countries that advantage of that and send less.
Now, lets be honest though, when you do get involved its not to FIGHT a war, and it shoudln't be, but to enforce peace and that, like I stated earlier, is a different ball of wax.

and i agree totally, keep the peace. but we americans love our guns ;)

[BoulderDawg]

It's a LOT more than 200 dirty lunatics in a cave. And don't forget we have other things to deal with as well. NK, anyone?

Then just who exactly are we fighting? The only answer I get to that question is the "Terrorists" but, other than OBL, nobody seems to know exactly who these "Terorists" are.

In Iraqi, a place where we have been for six years, they tell us the "Terrorists" are running wild and there is still much work to do.......What terrorists? How did they get into the country? Who supplied them weapons?

[Shaolinlueb]

Then just who exactly are we fighting? The only answer I get to that question is the "Terrorists" but, other than OBL, nobody seems to know exactly who these "Terorists" are.

In Iraqi, a place where we have been for six years, they tell us the "Terrorists" are running wild and there is still much work to do.......What terrorists? How did they get into the country? Who supplied them weapons?

who supplied them with weapons? of thats easy. probably the usa indirectly. ;)

[Drake]

It's all fun and games until someone starts driving planes into metropolitan areas. I'm still irritated about how the republicans blasted Clinton for taking action. We should've went in back then. Aspirin factory? In the middle of nowhere? C'MON.

It's even better how people are now downplaying what happened on 9/11. What, should we let them attack us again just to prove to the idiots that they are still a threat? Some people out there deserve it.

[David Jamieson]

who supplied them with weapons? of thats easy. probably the usa indirectly. ;)

the weapons they are using aren't American for the most part.

as for who you are fighting? You don't know?

It has never been a standing army that's for sure.
It is a world wide network of large and small cells of radical islamic ideologues.
That's who we are fighting in Afghanistan and who the us and uk are fighting in iraq.

There are rogue states that must be brought under control in the near future or there will be not much of a future.

There are problems with some of the propaganda and lobby groups that seek to support war, but ultimately, radical Islam is a huge problem in the world right now.

for instance, think about this. Israel is a tiny speck of a country carved out of crappy desert on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean sea. the Israelis have turned as much of it into an oasis as possible and have really created an amazing country there.

They are surrounded by Arab nations, teeming with millions who have an Islamic superiority complex and produce the worst criminals on the planet as has been shown again and again and yet, people just can't stop talking about how the Jews are a problem. Because the Israelis have teeth they are a problem?

wtf?

[Drake]

In all due fairness, we did pump a ton of weaponry into Afghanistan during the 80s. But like Mr. Jamieson said, everything they are using now isn't American.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's all fun and games until someone starts driving planes into metropolitan areas. I'm still irritated about how the republicans blasted Clinton for taking action. We should've went in back then. Aspirin factory? In the middle of nowhere? C'MON.

It's even better how people are now downplaying what happened on 9/11. What, should we let them attack us again just to prove to the idiots that they are still a threat? Some people out there deserve it.

I don't know of anyone that ever downplayed 3000+ deaths.
That said, you guys could have done a better job at "payback".
Afghanistain was a "given", even though I don't agree on how it was done.
You guys should have gone after the funding not just the arming.
Should have gone after the shelters and the people protecting those groups, after the governments that funded them and fed into the hatred, all the while selling you the oil and taking your money to fund the very terrorists.
In short, you should have gone after ALL the responsibles, not just the ones that got the blame.

[David Jamieson]

In all due fairness, we did pump a ton of weaponry into Afghanistan during the 80s. But like Mr. Jamieson said, everything they are using now isn't American.

The 80's was a proxy war to keep russia from acquiring the afghan territories as their own. At the time, the proxy war was a necessity. Right now, it is still Russia who is an underlying problem and it is still russia who is distributing weapons to the cells directly or vis a vis proxy nations such as Iran, Syria, Pakistan or Egypt.

There are huge propaganda elements too. Hamas and Hezbollah being the largest groups of ideologically run outfits that constantly chant death to America and anything else that doesn't mete out to a worldwide Caliphate run under sharia law.

It's a freakin mess and in my opinion it needs and deserves our undivided attention, not only militarily but compassionately as well. We must begin the process of generational change from within those countries. It gets frustrating as heck at times and politics is played a little to often instead of letting the work get done.

It will be done though.
It has to be done.

We here need to stop loathing ourselves for taking these decisive actions. Iraq was an error only because of the lack of political will in the first place back in GW1. It is problem now because of a power vacuum and an entire nation that has never been ruled democratically, not to mention the sectarian issues coming from Iran through the shia population in Iraq and all that.

there's a lot of factors at play. I think the warmongers miss out on a lot of the details and the peaceniks are certainly missing out on a lot of the point. BUt neither of these groups are the ones who will bring real and lasting change to the region. Only the most objectivist thinking will bring it about and there's no room for radicals from our own or radicals from their own. It has to be done with sober minds and decisive action.

[Drake]

I don't know of anyone that ever downplayed 3000+ deaths.
That said, you guys could have done a better job at "payback".
Afghanistain was a "given", even though I don't agree on how it was done.
You guys should have gone after the funding not just the arming.
Should have gone after the shelters and the people protecting those groups, after the governments that funded them and fed into the hatred, all the while selling you the oil and taking your money to fund the very terrorists.
In short, you should have gone after ALL the responsibles, not just the ones that got the blame.

Well, the fact is, the US Army wasn't ready for unconventional warfare. All of our training up to that point was all about taking on a conventional enemy.

As for those funding them... they get theirs. :D