VTM Discussion\Black Flag Wing Chun [Archive]

Chango

04-09-2009, 07:32 AM

Hudson,

Your assertions are incorrect H.F.Y. and the V.T.M. have always been two different things. So at this point it is clear on the web site. This was a complaint by some in the past (****ed if you do! ****ed if you don't) We have promoted many different lineages in the past HFY, Chi SIm, TWC, Moy Yat, Ip Ching, Ip chun, etc.... This does not mean the VTM staff is converting. This is the function of the VTM. I do have to admit that I'm very impressed with what I've been shown so far. I have to also say that I've been very impressed some of the others I've seen. We live in a great time for Wing chun and I'm really glad that the VTM has provided me a place where I get to experience 1st hand from the top representatives all of the great lineages that have came and shared and represented their culture and methods.

Terence,

Once again this is not a debate. I'm sure you raise valid points however this simply is not the thread to do that in.

I get it you do not like how the information is presented this has been noted.

As far as those who have the Ng mui history. To this day we have hosted more masters with Ng Mui historical lineage then those with shaolin. All of them have been presented in a fashion that states their history as it is. Weather the VTM agrees with it or not.

As I said I offered you an open invite to present what you have. Make the arrangements if not then lets still move on.

As for the third hall concept please do not assume that just because you don't understand it or you're not aware of it that it does not exist or it belongs to the person who presents it. This concept is not Benny Meng's as you have put it. But once again I do not wish to see this thread hi-jacked with debate.

Are you going or not? if so it will be great to see you! If not then I hope the next time you can make it.

t_niehoff

04-09-2009, 07:52 AM

Are you going or not? if so it will be great to see you! If not then I hope the next time you can make it.

No, I won't be attending. I no longer have any interest in seeing more "branches" of WCK -- for me, it's just more of the same (and not in a good way), only with different packaging.

Hudson Li

04-09-2009, 01:10 PM

Chango,

It's clear to me that the V.T.M. is such a huge umbrella that covers as many W.C. styles as possible, and that's an amazing job.
I note, however, that Meng's Martial Arts websites do not mention H.F.Y. as a part of its program anylonger, rather they mention Shaolin Wing Chun and Three Halls of Shaolin (as Terence pointed out, something created by Benny Meng).
So I'm inclined to believe that Benny Meng is letting go of H.F.Y. and slowly replacing it by Black Flag Wing Chun.
It's amazing that nowadays Black Flag shares the same information and the same wordings, in Benny Meng's well known style, that were attributed to H.F.Y.

For instance, http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/main.html

"Black Flag Eng Chun ( Wing Chun ) style can be seen as the "Martial Science" which is the application of the human skeleton, body mechanics and energy management at the right time and right place.
The reality of self defense is how to stop an opponent's attack using the most direct and economical means possible with the least amount of time, space and energy.
How ? There are some core concepts and formulas in the Black Flag Wing Chun system, which are the essence of the original Shaolin Fukien combat technology, that allow any practitioner to express themselves without relying on muscle size/strength, speed and hundreds of techniques."

Coincidences may happen, but sometimes they're too big to be considered as such.

punchdrunk

04-09-2009, 01:51 PM

I like the idea of the VTM, and plan to visit one day. I don't feel a need to learn about every different version of wing chun but i admire how the museum has given so many schools and instructors a chance for public promotion. I wish them continued success in the future.

Firehawk4

04-09-2009, 02:38 PM

It mentions something about Vikoga Wing Chun and Victor Leow , Malaysian Wing Chun , Yip Man Wing Chun and Something about Ho Yang Pai wich i think would be Ngo Cho Kun or Southern Tai Zhu . This is very confusing as i looked at the Black Flag Wing Chun History 3 or 4 years ago and what i thought was there history is what is at this website .I am confused .
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory

Hudson Li

04-10-2009, 05:50 AM

t_niehoff

04-10-2009, 06:25 AM

It looks like you're right.

duende

04-10-2009, 11:45 AM

I've got this from Antonio Martins Junior, from Brazil:

"Benny Meng's Hung Fa Yi schools in Brazil are no more referred to as Hung Fa Kwoon. Benny's South American headquarters in Fortaleza has replaced its domain's name and its advertisements from Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to Shaolin Wing Chun and is now announcing Black Flag Wing Chun as the elite of the anti-Qing secret societies, while, according to their renewed website, HFY was designed for average infantry soldiers. Check it out: www.hungfakwoon.com.br
This link will take you automatically to www.shaolinwingchun.com.br and show you Benny Meng's new venture".

I checked their nice site and I guess my perception on Benny Meng's moving from H.F.Y. to Black Flag Wing Chun was right.

For the record, HFY oral history and written codes from our Secret Society ancestors is very extensive. Much of which has not been shared with the public.

Therefore while Black Flag Wing Chun may have a "Red Flag Wing Chun" as well as a purple flag, green flag, yellow flag, and orange flag etc... in there history. Beyond all doubt, we can assure you it has nothing to do with Hung Fa Yi.

HFY stands for Red Flower Boxer Society NOT Red Flag WIng Chun. One only has to look at their body mechanics to see that the two have little in common.

As there is absolutely no HFY Sup Ming Dim/Tin Yan Dei body structure in there physical expression, or anything remotely similar in there awareness of Time Space and Energy. I could post pics for reference, but most of them were removed when BF WC redid their website. Thanks to Firehawk, I was made aware of them years ago.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2669
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2665

The VTM seeks out new branches of Wing Chun as a part of their stated mission. I wish them all the best in their endeavors, and look forward to hearing more about Black Flag Wing Chun. But it is important to be clear... Hung Fa Yi does not equal Red Flag WIng Chun.

Good training to all.

Hudson Li

04-10-2009, 01:30 PM

Duende,

Thank you for your precious inputs. I must confess that I'm confused at this point, since the V.T.M. is supposed to be an unbiased organisation, and with a little good will it will be understood by those who read Spanish that Benny Meng is declaring at his Brazilian website that according to historical records Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun was taught to regular Infantry and Black Flag Wing Chun was taught to the Elite revolutionary troups. It will also be understood that the words Flag and Bandana used to share the same meaning, so Hung Gun could be translated as Red Bandana or Red Flag.

As to Benny Meng's convertion into Black Flag, I asked Antonio Martins to translate a piece of the Brazilian website, and here's what I got:

"Benny Meng has been acting behind Garrett Gee's back for at least the last four years. With the help of a self-proclaimed Wing Chun Sifu called Alexandre Magnos de Brito, Benny created a web of pseudo-HFY schools throughout Brazil, distributing the title of "HFY black belt" to people who had not even had one single day of instruction in HFY. The first Brazilian HFY group, formed in Rio de Janeiro, tried to make Garrett Gee see it, in vain. When Garrett Gee came to Fortaleza, Northern Brazil, I myself tried to talk to him about it, but he did not give me ears. Now Benny Meng's and Alex Magnos' betrayal are no more hidden. That's what is written on the homepage of Benny Meng's headquarters in Brazil:

Portuguese * Uma vez mais, Mestre Benny Meng iniciou seu processo de aprendizagem e promoção dessa "nova" linhagem de Wing Chun que também preservou os Três Tesouros do Chan/Zen, Qigong e Artes Marciais do Shaolin do Sul. Essa linhagem é a linhagem Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun (Haak Kei Mun Wing Chun). Hoje, a missão do Ving Tsun Museum e da Shaolin Red Flower Boxer Society, através de seus líderes, Mestre Benny Meng e Sifu Alex Magnos, é promover o Ciência Martial Shaolin, transmitindo o conhecimento dessa ciência através das artes marciais para todos os praticantes que têm as qualidades de um verdadeiro Guerreiro Marcial e conduzir a todos que busquem o caminho para chegar ao Estágio Último de evolução Marcial (Físico, Mental e Espiritual) atingido pelos monges guerreiros de Shaolin - chamado Weng Kiu [永橋] (Iluminação ou Momento Enterno).

English * Once more, Master Benny Meng began his learning process and the promotion of this "new" lineage of Wing Chun that has also preserved the Three Treasures Cha/Zen, Qigong and Martial Arts of Southern Shaolin. This lineage is Hek Ki Boen Chun (Hakka Kei Mun Wing Chun). Nowadays, the mission of the Ving Tsun Museum and the Red Flower Boxer Society, through its leaders, Master Benny Meng and Sifu Alex Magnos, is to promote the Martial Science of Shaolin, by transmitting the knowledge of this science through the Martial Arts to any practitioner that has the qualities of a true martial warrior, and to lead everyone who seeks the way for the Ultimate Level of martial evolution (physical, mental and spiritual) that was attained by the warrior monks of Shaolin - called Weng Kiu (ilumination or eternal moment).

This is confusing, at least for me. Why would Benny Meng, a well known and respected Wing Chun master, convert from Hung Fa Yi into Black Flag Wing Chun, just as he had converted from Moy Yat into Hung Fa Yi ten years ago?
What is so strong in history and/or practice that led the V.T.M.'s Curator to declare that Hung Fa Yi was for avarage soldiers and Black Flag was for elite troups?
What is so important that made Benny Meng risk his reputation by opening H.F.Y. schools in South America in spite of Garrett Gee's approval, just for converting those schools into Shaolin/Black Flag Wing Chun in such a short time?
And why did Benny Meng choose to plant the seeds of his new project in the distant land of Brazil?

I can only see two options: or Benny Meng found out that H.F.Y. was not the advanced Martial Art he used to proclaim, or Benny Meng found in Black Flag a treasure that even H.F.Y. lost its value before his eyes. Whatever it is, the answer speaks no good of H.F.Y.'s credibility, that, by the way, has been involved in controversies and disputes since Benny Meng started that B.S. that "our" (Ng Mui/Yip Man) Wing Chun was inferior to "his" (Cheung Ng/Hung Fa Yi) Wing Chun.

B.T.W., Duende, would you mind to clarify if the postures of the Black Flag Wing Chun practitioners of Benny Meng's headquarters in Brazil that appear at http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/inicio.php are really different from H.F.Y.'s postures? I ask this because, in spite of your affirmation above, their physical expression reminds me the ones at Mastering Kung Fu.

punchdrunk

04-10-2009, 01:45 PM

Any relation to the guys in this clip ? http://emsergipe.globo.com/multimidia/?id=17236 I posted this a long time ago it was hardly secret though they did deny it was HFY or at least decent HFY. http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50445&highlight=rare+clip Honestly whatever is happening in Brazil would be hard to get the full picture of unless we are there.

Marcelo-RJ

04-10-2009, 03:56 PM

Good evening, everyone!

I was the first Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun student in Brasil and the promoter of all of the 10 international HFY workshops that were held in Rio de Janeiro.
As a member of the original group and a close friend and training partner of the current head of our local Hung Fa Kwoon, I want to make sure that we, from Rio de Janeiro, are directly connected to Grand Master Garrett Gee and the World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association. I also want to make sure that we have nothing at all to do with "Three Halls of Shaolin", "Shaolin Wing Chun", "Black Flag Wing Chun" or any other activity of Mr. Meng and Mr. Alex(andre) Magnos in this Country.
The video referred to on the post above was released by Mr. Meng and Mr. Alex(andre) Magnos (btw, never a certified Moy Yat instructor as some would mistakenly say) and , in my opinion, it is not, by any means, a fair representation of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Rather, I have always found that video poor, out of time and highly deceiptive.
Thank you,

Marcelo A C Santos
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil

Hendrik

04-10-2009, 05:25 PM

1, VTM doesnt seem to realized that Eng (eternal) Chun is not Wing (praise) Chun.

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html

2, For me after looking at the site, based on the set practice ....etc

With all the respect to HKB Engchun and the ancestors of this lineage, in my humble opion, HKB Engchun is more likely to be a lineage evolution of White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian.

3, As for Wing Chun, we know by evident, The core SLT is fusion from White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang. Where the tale of the Crane and Snake comes.

Today, we could still probe into the Crane and the Snake which fusion into SLT. In the history of China, Both the White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian can be traced to mid 1600 where the founder Ms Fang Chi Niang teaches Eng Chun Kuen in Fujian prior to spread the art to Taiwan. Emei 12 Zhuang could be traced to 1300.

Wing Chun is called Wing Chun because it is the art of the Opera Actors such as Lee Man Mau who lead the Red Bandana or the first Opera Artists revolution in the Chinese history and red boat artist Yik Kam who both exist in mid 1800.

According to Yik Kam's lineage record, the Name of the WCK style prio to WCK is simply Siu Lin Tau. and the Salutation performing before SLT and pole kuit of the Six point half pole is the Code for the revolution to identify the identity of the lineage.

4, I see HKB Engchun as a sister art of WCK from the mother Crane side, but it is not an older art because SLT is based on a 400 years + 700 years old trace able in Chinese official history martial art system.

and the family tree in

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html

might be true for others but certainly not for WCK.

also in this family tree, Eng Chun is preciesly translate as Eternal Spring.

As a conclusion, in my opinion, it is alway good to learn something from other sister art, however, it is a disaster to confuse the source of the art.
As in the Chinese culture, mess up the source of the water is not an act of a filial decendent or a righteous gentle man.

I really hope and pray that VTM do a better job and bring up quality work of finding the source of WCK; and best wishes to HKB Eng Chun's future expansion.

My bottom line is simply, perhaps, it is the time for the WCK community to describe what it is instead of lumping /linking and making more confusion. That present no benifit to anyone in the long run.

t_niehoff

04-10-2009, 06:55 PM

I can only see two options: or Benny Meng found out that H.F.Y. was not the advanced Martial Art he used to proclaim, or Benny Meng found in Black Flag a treasure that even H.F.Y. lost its value before his eyes. Whatever it is, the answer speaks no good of H.F.Y.'s credibility, that, by the way, has been involved in controversies and disputes since Benny Meng started that B.S. that "our" (Ng Mui/Yip Man) Wing Chun was inferior to "his" (Cheung Ng/Hung Fa Yi) Wing Chun.

A cynic might see a third option, one that pertains to the almighty dollar.

Hudson Li

04-10-2009, 07:25 PM

t_niehoff,

Until a few hours ago I've been somewhat trustful about the V.T.M.'s ideological isemption. At this point, however, I'd be inclined to bet on the third option.

Peter-Malave

04-11-2009, 10:35 AM

This workshop should be interesting. On their page here: http://www.blackflagwingchun.com/main.html Their talk is eerily familiar to the language the VTM has used in their articles on Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

an excerpt:

What is Black Flag Wing Chun Kung Fu ?

Fukien Black Flag Wing Chun Kungfu is a unique system that allows practitioners to express maximum efficiency toward an opponent's attack using the most economical means possible with the least amount of time, space, and energy. The focus of the system is to occupy the opponent’s space at the right time and to use our energy very efficiently.

This system originated from Southern Shaolin in Fukien. The creation of the system was due to the invasion and overthrow of the Ming by the Qing in 1644. The place they used to discuss the new hybrid system was called Eng Chun Tim (Weng Chun Dim), which meant “Hall of Forever Spring” inside the Southern Shaolin Temple. Many Ming loyalties, Senior Monks and Martial Art Masters, through their combined effort, ended up developing a new hybrid system as the essence of all advanced styles to be taught to secret rebellion warriors to overthrow the Qing Dynasty and preserve the depth of wisdom and knowledge within the Shaolin Temples.

What was created inside the 'Eng Chun Tim' in the Fukien Shaolin Temple goes beyond just new techniques, styles or concepts. From the Shaolin Temple in Fukien, this secret treasure was passed on to the hands of the Black Flag Secret Society as the gate keeper of the system.

We take the student beyond just learning the techniques of self defense. Students will have a chance to see and understand the paradigm of time, space and energy, starting by the understanding of the microcosm (own self/identity=Mind, Body and Energy), followed by understanding the macrocosm (Time and Space) and at the end, to achieve emptiness (Ngo Kek) where there is no more illusion of attachment. Everything becomes clear. These stages are referred to as "Sam chin sam tue" (Three stages of life/learning).

To harmonize your own energy toward the changes of time and space (Illusion of Attachment), one must understand the original Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun formula, such as:
1. Two Line of Offense, using Im-Yang Hand.
2. 3-Dimentional body structure, along with triangle point of ‘square’ body & stance structure.
3. Three vertical references of Heaven, Earth and Man.
4. Five lines of width (Two Shoulder line [Yang Line], Two Chest Line [Im Line], and Centerline).
5. Three bridge range of Heaven, Earth and Man.
6. Nine gates reference and four directions.
6. Wheel bearing body.
7. Impulse/shock Power Generation (Hoat Keng).
8. Internal Power (Nui Kang).
9. Blind Side Entry (Siam), Triangle (Sa Kak Bhe), 4 corner (Si Kak Bhe) and Zig-Zag (Goan Po) footwork.I hope that after the workshop there will be some input from the attendees as to whether or not this is a coincidence. I hate to say it, but since the apparent fallout on HFY108 with Benny Meng I can only speculate that Hudson Li and Terence Niehoff's suspicions are correct.

Peter

Peter-Malave

04-11-2009, 10:59 AM

After following the (now gone) 3 Halls and HFY thread on HFY108 over the past month or so, and seeing this "new" Eng Chun/VTM corroboration I'd say that Hudson Li is a pretty good detective. I've also noticed that on HFY108.com (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=120) there are no more listings for certain schools, in comparison to his new forum Shaolin Wing Chun 108 (http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/)

The schools for Dayton, Centerville, Richmond, Cincinnati, Kansas City, North Kansas, and Houston, are not on HFY108. There are also listings on HFY108 that are not on Benny Meng's forum... hmmm.

I visited one of their websites here (http://www.mengsofkc.com/mengsfamilylocations.htm) and noticed that the links to several schools no longer promote HFYWC either. Sifu John Lambert seems to be the only one listed as an official Hung Fa Kwoon on his site. Sifu Chango Noaks only mentions anything about HFY or Grandmaster Garrett Gee on his bio page.

In reading some comments on Shaolin Wing Chun 108 (http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/), such as this one (http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/index.php/topic,33.0.html):
I would like to join in on congratulating Sifu and everyone else involved on deciding to have our own Forum. I never actually made one comment, nor did I post even one message in the other Forum because of all of the negative energy. I did not want to get drawn into the middle of it. I think this is a very good idea. I also think it will provide a much richer understanding of the information about Shaolin training and the Third Hall info. I used to have many problems deciphering what was true and what wasn't because of all of the arguing going on in HFY108. I also want to say thank you to everyone who thought of this because it will help me learn faster than before.

Aaron M.

And lastly, after viewing the Brazilian page, I'd say there was a DEFINITE split. Their new logo looks like a total rip off of the HFY logo. I can't copy the logo image, but it's easily seen here (http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/inicio.php).

Yikes!
Peter

Hudson Li

04-11-2009, 11:33 AM

duende

04-11-2009, 01:21 PM

It's not needed to be a good detective when all the clues are right before our eyes, Peter!
Black Flag Wing Chun "history" has changed considerably after Benny Meng started speaking about them, just like Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun "history" has changed consideraby since Benny Meng started writting about it. Benny's writting style is the same in both cases. Note that Garrett Gee's Irish website states that H.F.Y.'s identity was stablished by Hung Gun Biu while Benny Meng's articles used to preach that Hung Fa Yi has never ever changed since Cheung Ng due to the so-called Formula. Now Benny used to say H.F.Y. was for highest level monks and militaries only, and now his Brazilian website states that H.F.Y. rebels were regular Infantry, while Black Flag was the elite division. It all depends on Benny's (and the V.T.M.'s) convenience.
Now look who I've found on the website recommended by Chango: http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/main.html
Scroll down and you will see Benny Meng on Black Flag's uniform!
Moy Yat, Garrett Gee... who's the next?

Hmm... as both Hung Gun Biu and Cheung Ng have ancestral role's in HFY's Lineage. I don't see how you deem this a change.

The only change I can think of, is when HFY went public, and we revealed that our true name was Hung Fa Yi, and not Hung Suen. The Hung Suen name simply being a general WC term for public use. So that was a change. (Incidentally, the act of going public itself was quite a bigger change than revealing our true name)

As time goes on, our GM will determine when it is proper to release more info as he sees fit. It is not my place to do so, although I must admit, there have been times when I would have liked to. ;)

So I am happy to say that at our upcoming workshop in AZ, GM Gee will publicly reveal certain details about our history that many here have been asking about for quite sometime.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2754

Good training to all.

Hudson Li

04-11-2009, 02:29 PM

Well, duende... it's clear as the purest crystal that if Hung Gun Biu is the one behind H.F.Y.'s signature, then Cheung Ng's original style, if any, was obviously changed.
Benny says H.F.Y. remained intact from the very beginning, but the Bai Jong article on the Irish website says Hung Gun Biu gave H.F.Y. its characteristical elements based on the spear technology (as you, H.F.Y. and now also B.F., put it). Dude, you guys even call yourselves Hung Gun Biu lineage, c'mon!

Hudson Li

04-11-2009, 02:56 PM

duende

04-11-2009, 03:18 PM

Hudson,

Get your arguments straight. Are you talking about history or system. If we are talking about History, I've already shared that both Hun Gun Biu and Cheung Ng are our ancestors. That has not changed. END OF ARGUMENT.

If you are talking about system, then you'd better learn some HFY before we can even have this conversation, because you do not know what our system is, how it works, or how it can be used with other "outside the box" techniques. So again.. END OF ARGUMENT.

As for hand techniques developing out of spear technology, this is nothing new. Nor is it something unique to HFY. Besides, one hand form technique/drill does not define what is or what is not the HFY system. So again. END OF ARGUMENT.

You have taken two out-of context statements. One from BM and one from Ireland. Both have only been exposed to the martial arts side of HFY. Neither can speak for our lineage. Not by a long shot.

The real question here is, what motivates you to try confuse people with these accusations?

Hudson Li

04-11-2009, 05:59 PM

duende,

Sorry to say this, but it seems it's only you who cannot get the meaning of my straight affirmation. I do not know where you've taken this history or system mess from, since my statement was clear: we have (had) Benny Meng saying H.F.Y. had not changed a bit since Cheung Ng (late 1600, early 1700), and we have not only the now defunct Irish site but also many at hfy108.com saying that Hung Gun Biu (half 1800, contemporary of the Red Junks) introduced new elements into H.F.Y.

I'm not being rude towards your organization. My words have nothing to do with myself not being a H.F.Y. student, they have nothing to do with Cheung Ng being or not an ancestor and they have nothing to do with system vs. history. It's all about two affirmations coming from your K.F. family (H.F.Y. had never changed since Cheung Ng/ H.F.Y. was improved, thus changed, by Hung Gun Biu). Those affirmations simple do not match. Period.

For you, who's got the reason, duende? Is H.F.Y. the same since the fall of Shaolin or had Hung Gun Biu introduced some modifications to the system?

duende

04-11-2009, 06:33 PM

Hudson,

I can't speak for why others do the things they do. I am only speaking for myself.

But what I can tell you, is simply this. The WC formula (Sup Ming Dim/Tin Yan Dei body karma expression) does not change. This is because they are based on the physical structure and body mechanics of the human body. However, this awareness of self and martial knowledge can be adapted to be used with new techniques and so forth.

Therefore, one could say that nothing has changed since Cheung Ng (meaning the WC formula/inside-the-box)), and also say that new elements were introduced during he Hung Gun Biu period. (incorporation of outside-the-box techniques and tactics)

What's my reason? I am trying to help you understand how HFY works. New technology effects everything. We adapt our arts accordingly. But the human body does not change. Physics of Time Space and Energy do not change. Get it??

I know it can be confusing, but I am honestly just trying to help you. :)

Peace out

Hudson Li

04-11-2009, 06:51 PM

Thank you, duende. I need sometime to think of what you said. For now, the piece of information you provided leads me to the conclusion that H.F.Y., as expected from any martial art, is in constant evolution - which ultimately means it has changed since it was created.

Hendrik

04-11-2009, 06:54 PM

The WC formula (Sup Ming Dim/Tin Yan Dei body karma expression) does not change. ................

But the human body does not change.

Physics of Time Space and Energy do not change. Get it??

ARe you serious?

How do you link this with Chan of Shao Lin? is it even Chan related?

Peter-Malave

04-11-2009, 10:43 PM

So now that Black Flag has a 'formula'... is anyone trying to capitalize upon H.F.Y.'s terminology? If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release.
This is quite an interesting statement.

"If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release."

While I can appreciate challenging and opposing views in intellectual discussions, I cannot appreciate collectors of information who engage in such politics as you are suggesting. Unless I am wrong, either you have no respect or integrity, or you are suggesting that the VTM doesn't. Are you being sarcastic? Too difficult to tell, and I'm sorry if I'm being offensive.

Considering your recent posts, let's say you are indirectly saying the VTM is collecting information from B.F.E.C. in order to gain some ill-perceived marketing advantage over the HFY association. That is a very disgusting thing to suggest in my book, and I'd really be interested in seeing what the VTM has to say about that *if* that is what you are saying. If you're talking about yourself, then that's a shameful thing to admit man.

If not, then in my book you are indirectly saying there is no integrity in the VTM's research, and that their "marketing" is more so some person's agenda rather than open sharing and honest promotion. On the VTM Discussion thread you suggest he did something similar to Moy Yat, Garrett Gee, and that he may be repeating this yet again to the Black Flag Eng Chun guys. Can you clarify what you mean?

The Black Flag Wing Chun system contains deep knowledge and concepts, showcasing a different point of entry into the Third Hall of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

Benny Meng took some heat back on HFY108 concerning his 3 Halls program. It was VERY obvious he is a very private person because he never answered any of the questions people were asking, including mine and I don't even train martial arts. I've asked myself why he even bothered posting on a discussion board if he was unwilling to discuss. That boggled my mind at the time, but to each his own I guess.

Now it looks like his new angle is to replace the "Third Hall" material which supposedly consisted of HFY, with Black Flag Eng Chun. His 3 Halls program is making less and less sense to me. The more I am reading about the VTM and the development of their program the more I see lines being blurred between business marketing, professional education, research, and history. Not to mention the fact that people are getting seriously burned in the process. I want no part in that at all.

I used to have an interest in driving down to Dayton to learn from Benny Meng. He was the closer of the two to me, and I wasn't about to drive all the way to California from Illinois on a regular basis to learn HFY. Unfortunately after seeing all this take place and watching it unfold now forget it. My kids and family are more important, and I've had much less frustration and drama in pursuing other ventures. WAY too much drama. I might reconsider the local MMA school a few blocks from here. I know they don't have these kind of problems. I hope things pan out for everyone.

Peter

Hudson Li

04-12-2009, 04:06 AM

My statements go on the same page as yours, specially re-read your two last paragraphs and you`ll see mine and yours are the same book.
Let me be clear about my thoughts on the V.T.M. I, like you, used to consider learning from Benny Meng somewhere in the future and I used to believe the V.T.M. was unbiased.
However... a couple of days ago I`ve realized that Black Flag Wing Chun had changed their initial statements regarding history and adopted some of the well known Hung Fa Yi terminology, and reading back the old material released by the V.T.M. it was clear to me that it was Benny Meng`s style printed on the new B.F. declarations.
Now let me tell you this, as it is being advertised, Garrett Gee will be giving out never released information on H.F.Y.`s history at the upcoming seminar in Arizona. Never released information means that not even Benny Meng has ever heard about it. And that never released information is coming out after Benny Meng joined Black Flag and stated that H.F.Y. (until recently, according to his articles, "for highest level monks and militaries only") was in fact a form of W.C. practiced by regular infantry, while Black Flag was the true W.C. of the real elite division.
Note that H.F.Y. student duende has declared that Hung Fa Yi has nothing to do with any Banners, but the new genealogy tree on B.F. website shows Black Flag and Red Flag side by side and under Red Flag it reads Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.
If it`s not information and counter information, I wonder what it is.
The point is that I`d sincerely love to attend both seminars, after all it seems both groups have the utmost interest in showing their best. So it`s not my intention to collect info and counter info for political purposes, as you put it, but as a popular Wingchunner, as they put it, I have a legitimate interest in seeing and hearing what both groups have to say.

Marcelo-RJ

04-12-2009, 12:53 PM

Greetings from Rio!

There's enough room for everyone. Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is a wonderful martial art, and Black Flag Wing Chun surely has its own greatness and value. Wing Chun is rich, no matter what branch we're talking about.
If there are inconsistencies and controversies in how each lineage presents their historical version, let's give time a credit and wait for common points to speak louder.
Shaolin or White Crane, Ng Mui or Cheung Ng... until we have undisputable and objective evidences (artefacts, written texts etc), there ain't no point in creating divisions because of how each branch relates to the greater Wing Chun lore.
HFY WC was for the highest level secret society members or regular infantry? BF WC was for the elite divisions or outer circle rebels? Maybe both are right, for the common primitive form of Wing Chun might be the one practiced by high level secret society revolutionaries, and that form could have been the one that Hung Gun Biu has learned and protected. But these are just especulations and, most of all, does it all really matter right now, when the guardians of those sistems have never had the opportunity to speak to each other and try to figure out what their lineages carry in common, both re. system and re. history?
The point is that GM Gee and GM Tio don't seem to care about proving the world which (hi)story is right. All in all, each Wing Chun branch is a legitimate martial art on its own, and even different versions, expressions and traditions may cohabit this vast world in peace.
These are my 2 cents.

Marcelo

Hendrik

04-12-2009, 02:34 PM

Shaolin or White Crane, Ng Mui or Cheung Ng... until we have undisputable and objective evidences (artefacts, written texts etc), there ain't no point in creating divisions because of how each branch relates to the greater Wing Chun lore.

Marcelo

Marcelo,

I dont have problem in living with peace with others because to be real honest, others life is none of my business.

I respect everyone's Story or His-story but others have no right to screw up my lineage with their confusion mind or thier history for marketing purpose.

I believe in mutual respect, thus,

1, I dont agree with your " Undisputable objective evidence" assumption because no one have right to making such claim for my lineage of WCK

For my lineage, Yes, there is solid evidence from my lineage to prove White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang are the parents of SLT/SNT.

In our lineage we have make connection to the White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang gate keeper.

we have result such as the following

http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html

and

also the endosement from the Fujian White crane that Wing Chun is an evolution White Crane of Fujian.

http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/origin.htm

2, as for creating " divisions " check into various Kung Fu magazine article since about a decade ago and see who and which party is the one create division for yourself.

Not to mention, there is no solid evidence upto now to back thier claim.

looking at this family tree

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html

is the evidence of misleading with intention unless solid evidence is provided with solid evidence and endosement from the Shao lin that the RED Flag group or the HFY society is the source of all general public WCK.

See,
In Chinese tradition, Yee means doing what is right for others. it is Not doing what is right for oneself and Screw all the others and thier ancestors.

how is when one keep preach Yee Yee Yee but act in a totally opposite way?
Chan Chan Chan but violate all the Chan teaching ?

again, in Chinese tradition, modifying Blood line or making HIs-story for one's own convenient is called "Bullying the teacher and destroy the Ancestors" or Chi Shr Mia Tzu. That is the biggest sin in Chinese Tradition for a student.

Finally,

I wish your lineage family and yourself to be success and prosper, and every lineage live in mutual respect.

Best Regards
Hendrik

t_niehoff

04-12-2009, 02:36 PM

Greetings from Rio!

There's enough room for everyone. Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is a wonderful martial art, and Black Flag Wing Chun surely has its own greatness and value. Wing Chun is rich, no matter what branch we're talking about.

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O

If there are inconsistencies and controversies in how each lineage presents their historical version, let's give time a credit and wait for common points to speak louder.

Oh, I think the "commonality" is already speaking loud and clear.

Shaolin or White Crane, Ng Mui or Cheung Ng... until we have undisputable and objective evidences (artefacts, written texts etc), there ain't no point in creating divisions because of how each branch relates to the greater Wing Chun lore.

There will never be any objective evidence. And, in my view, no one in their right mind would take those stories as even remotely possible. The Ng Mui story is an allegory. The Cheung Ng story comes from a pulp novel.

Maybe, just mayube, someday people will be more interested in proving the "richness" of their art or the "greatness" of their art with something besides madeup history. But, of course, to do that, they would need to fight -- and I don't expect that to happen.

HFY WC was for the highest level secret society members or regular infantry? BF WC was for the elite divisions or outer circle rebels? Maybe both are right, for the common primitive form of Wing Chun might be the one practiced by high level secret society revolutionaries, and that form could have been the one that Hung Gun Biu has learned and protected. But these are just especulations and, most of all, does it all really matter right now, when the guardians of those sistems have never had the opportunity to speak to each other and try to figure out what their lineages carry in common, both re. system and re. history?
The point is that GM Gee and GM Tio don't seem to care about proving the world which (hi)story is right. All in all, each Wing Chun branch is a legitimate martial art on its own, and even different versions, expressions and traditions may cohabit this vast world in peace.
These are my 2 cents.

There is no point in arguing which fairy tales of a recently created WCK branches are correct. That's like arguing over whose pretend fighting is better.

Marcelo-RJ

04-12-2009, 06:42 PM

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O

The greatness and the richness of a martial art are far beyond fighting and fighters, IMHO. History, discipline, values, body expression, coordination, courage, self confidence (...) and also allegories and tales do play a special role in my conception of greatness and richness.
BTW, I'm also a Luta Livre (Brazilian no-Gi submission/grappling) practitioner and I train MMA with one of the major Brazilian teams at least once a week here in Rio de Janeiro. Although I personally know and respect a lot of good fighters, some of them internationally renowned, I do not consider their original martial arts richer or greater than Wing Chun - in my case, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.
But, of course, each one's opinion is valid on its own. And here's where respect enters.

Marcelo
PS: considered as such, what's wrong with myths, allegories and tales?

First Blood

04-12-2009, 09:59 PM

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O.

Though most of your posts are grounded you are nontheless a victim of your own logic.

Greatness And Richness can have validity both historically and present.

Where is WCK history does it mention that it was designed to compete and defeat MMA trained fighters in a ring enviroment ? I'm sure the system would be different it if that was their objective.

If you know anything about WCK history then you will realise the system was born in an enviroment of handweapons and it's objective and subsequent objective was to destroy life and to preserve one's own in the quickest and most efficient way.

Historically how do know have many real lifes were taken or saved through WCK training ?

So your above statement is almost comical......So i cant refer to Peking Opera as 'Great or Rich' just because it hasn't won any international opera awards ?

Peter-Malave

04-13-2009, 12:23 AM

Interesting. By what standard to you gauge"greatness" or "richness" -- the number of fighters the art produces? The level of the fighters the art produces? O

Oh, I think the "commonality" is already speaking loud and clear.

There will never be any objective evidence. And, in my view, no one in their right mind would take those stories as even remotely possible. The Ng Mui story is an allegory. The Cheung Ng story comes from a pulp novel.

Maybe, just mayube, someday people will be more interested in proving the "richness" of their art or the "greatness" of their art with something besides madeup history. But, of course, to do that, they would need to fight -- and I don't expect that to happen.

There is no point in arguing which fairy tales of a recently created WCK branches are correct. That's like arguing over whose pretend fighting is better.It will be a sad day on this Earth if the greatness of America, or any country for that matter, is judged by Terence's value system. There's a difference between value and values, as well as history and personal achievement.

I'm with First Blood and Marcelo-RJ on this one. Sorry dude, but I seriously hope you get your head back where it's supposed to be.

Good luck,
Peter

t_niehoff

04-13-2009, 06:26 AM

Interesting series of posts. It seems that when many talk about the "greatness and richness" of their martia art, they are talking about "the greatness and richness" of the bullsh1t associated with their MA -- the stories, the fairly tales, the nonsensical "conceptual systems", etc. I don't find that surprising: this is what SELLS those particular martial arts. (Certainly what sells them isn't their proven record of developing fighting skills, since they have no record!).

Hudson Li

04-13-2009, 06:53 AM

as for creating " divisions " check into various Kung Fu magazine article since about a decade ago and see who and which party is the one create division for yourself.
Not to mention, there is no solid evidence upto now to back thier claim.
looking at this family tree
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html
is the evidence of misleading with intention unless solid evidence is provided with solid evidence and endosement from the Shao lin that the RED Flag group or the HFY society is the source of all general public WCK.
See,
In Chinese tradition, Yee means doing what is right for others. it is Not doing what is right for oneself and Screw all the others and thier ancestors.
how is when one keep preach Yee Yee Yee but act in a totally opposite way?
Chan Chan Chan but violate all the Chan teaching ?
again, in Chinese tradition, modifying Blood line or making HIs-story for one's own convenient is called "Bullying the teacher and destroy the Ancestors" or Chi Shr Mia Tzu. That is the biggest sin in Chinese Tradition for a student.

Looking at the family tree you mention, I can only agree with you and once more point out there seems to be a not so subliminar message of Black Flag Eng Chun being purer, more special and superior than the other Wing Chun versions, Hung Fa Yi included. Since it's getting clearer and clearer that something hapenned between Benny Meng and Garrett Gee, as well as that Benny Meng converted to Black Flag Eng Chun, I wonder whose purposes all those new historical (?) informations about Black Flag serve.
I remember Benny Meng's articles used to segregate Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi from the rest of the Wing Chun world. Those were the pure, the special, the superior, and "we" were just the rest. Then Benny Meng had an issue with Andreas Hofman, and suddenly it was only Hung Fa Yi that reunited the qualities of being pure, special and superior. Now Benny Meng switches over Black Flag Eng Chun and suddenly Hung Fa Yi, like all the "rest", becomes but another regular Wing Chun style. There's an obvious pattern here.
Chi Shr Mia Tzu. I wonder what passed on Moy Yat's, Andreas Hofman's and Garrett Gee's minds.

Hendrik

04-13-2009, 10:48 AM

Hudson,

1, we need to make sure we are not practicing Chi Shr Mia Tzu ourself. as for the others, time will tell, and it is really no longer our concern because that is the Karma they choose.

As in the Shao Lin legend,there is a monk name Ma Ninger, a common disciple. In the Qianlong Age of the Qing dynasty, Ma Ninger betrayed Shaolin and guided Qing troops to burn down the temple.

Ma Ning er choosed his own karma.

2, Looking at
http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html

This is trouble for sifu Lin.

It is obviously, those who do this family tree doesnt understand classical Chinese martial art tradition.

That also indirectly pointing to the authenticity of the claim.

In Classical Chinese martial art tradition, one needs to have the authorization and agreement to do this type of trees. Otherwise, is like calling someone "*******".

IE: Say those who have last name Chen will not let others by passed their ancestor and become a branch of Lee.

This familytree is trouble because there is no right for the person who makes or endose this tree to make the Red Boat Opera, Yim Wing Chun, Foshan City, Guangzhou, Yip Man, Bruce Lee a branch of Red Flag Group and Eng Chun Tim.

Indirectly, making and endosement of this tree put one in the position of Ignorance on the CLASSICAL CHINESE TRADITION.

IE: I am from the Yik Kam lineage of WCK. We were taught in case we meet some decendent of other WCK from the Red Boat Era, we have to show them our code with respect, and going by the CLASSICAL CHINESE TRADITIONAL rule, if his generation is higher then me, I need to call him as senior.

If ENG CHUN TIM exist. The above example activity will have to carry out without ambiguity. So that one doesnt become " Mei DA Mei Siao" or no respect of others, which is a big no no in Classical Chinese tradition.

And since these Classical Chinese Tradition comes with the Art similar with two wings of a bird. How could it be, in one hand claiming the inheritance of the Art but not the Tradition?

3, As I mention in this forum and other forum a few time, Yes, there is code to identify oneself in the Red Boat era. In fact, I have post the Yik Kam's WCK lineage's Code which comes with the salutation movement.

Which is

1,

反清復明五湖四海十指連心遝我河山

Over turn the Qing, Return to Ming, Five lakes four seas, ten fingers with the same heart, return me my country.

2,

劍指膀肘逞英雄

Sword finger, Bong Elbow present to the Hero (Yin Hung)
(Yin Hung was used in that era for to refer to the Hung Mun because the pronouciation of Hung in hero is similar to the Hung of Hung Mun.)

Notice the following CLF stanza, in the following site, it starts also with Yin Hong. and we know CLF was also involved in the uprising activity in the same era of 1800's

http://www.hongshengguan.com/his.htm

This Yin Hung term also could be found in YUE YUAN / Dim Chun hall exhibit of Shang Hai. there is a picture on the Shang Hai Yin Hung Stanza some where in the old article in Rene's site.
One can sees the activities between Shang Hai, Taiping, Canton, Opera....etc at that era. Rene and Robert have written a series of details article on these.

http://www.w1ng.com/shanghai-connection-wing-chun-dim-chun-siu-do-wui/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDVkKg9iSQY&feature=related

半点子午定太平

Half Point of center spear settle the Tai Ping
( Taiping for Tai Ping Tien Kuo, )http://wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM

If Red Group or VTM of HKM Engchun (since they post the family tree) belive in thier position, then they need to post thier code in the Red Boat era or even older era with multi-ple verify-able source to present thier identity.
otherwise, they have no position to step on top of the Red Boat opera and WCK of Red Boat, Cantoon....etc.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory

The Name Tan Sau Ng, or Hung Gam Biu or Eng Chun Tian doesnt means much without specification and multi-verify-able source. It is similar to Obama, which Obama?

See, from the History of Tien Tee Hui, Taiping, Shang Hai, Canton above, today we knows the Name such as Lee Man Mau, Hung Xiu Chuan..... all the top leaders of the era. There is no Hung Gam Biu. As for Tan Sau Ng. yes, he contribute to the Opera hundred years ago prior to 1850's. However, what is his martial art style? Not to mention, even White Crane of WIng Chun going through at least one major evolution from 1660 to 1820 --- Martial art changes and style evolve to keep up with the progress changes.

Also, what kind of art is the Red Flag and Black Flag? what is the uniqueness with multi-ple varify-able source. IE: Yip Man WCK can be Varified with YKS WCK, Yik Kam WCK, Koo Lo WCK, and all of them echo each others even they are from different location.

Those VTM needs to take the responsibility to clearify instead of just post something and expect everyone to take it as the truth for no reason and evidence.

That is the Chinese Traditional way. any classical TCMA Sifu will expect to see. and expect VTM live up to the Standard of their mission.

Finally,

I am open with different views and ideas; but it needs to be done properly when it comes with tradition so that we dont screw the future generation. I wish a prosper future for HKM EngChun and VTM.

chusauli

04-14-2009, 02:56 PM

The Chinese consider respecting the ancestors important and also hold high the concept of preventing to lead future generations astray. This is in keeping with the ancestor worship which identifies the Chinese people since the beginning of our culture.

This is the sum of Hendrik's statements. It may not mean a lot to others, but this is something that is very important to traditional minded Chinese culturally.

I realize since WCK has become international, that many may not see the issues here.

Hudson Li

04-14-2009, 03:40 PM

Looking at all that has been said here, do you mean Benny Meng is not Chinese or is it all about becoming integrated to the modern global liberal paradigm?

Hendrik

04-14-2009, 04:13 PM

Robert,

Thanks for the summary.

The Chinese consider respecting the ancestors important and also hold high the concept of preventing to lead future generations astray.

That is the teaching of Confucian to be a responsible person. Responsible for the past, present , and future.

This is in keeping with the ancestor worship which identifies the Chinese people since the beginning of our culture.

As above,
Thus, behind the surface of ancestor worship act. To become a responsibility person who can Ding Tien Li Dee or Support the sky and stand solid on the earth is the idea.

To be a sifu or a grand master or a leader, one has influence on others life. thus, one needs to be even carefull.

If one is not truthfull with the ancestors, how can one be truth full with others?

It may not mean a lot to others, but this is something that is very important to traditional minded Chinese culturally.

I realize since WCK has become international, that many may not see the issues here.

Everything has a consequence, become international means there are more responsibility to others well being.

Thus, learning Chinese culture must go deep instead of wearing some pajamas type of clothing, saying some chinese words, joining some club, but true-ly know what is the meaning to become a good citizen of the earth where benifit oneself and others.

Just some thoughts

Hendrik

04-14-2009, 04:20 PM

is it all about becoming integrated to the modern global liberal paradigm?

When we screw up and lost the root and the past, chaos will be surface.

if that is what modern global liberal paradigm lead into ;
then what is the point to bring the Buddhist monk of Shao lin, the great sages of the past into the picture of WCK?

what is Zen or Chan? Chan means Taking full responsibility and living in Now. does one taking full responsibility on one's act ? that one knows in one's own heart.

Hendrik

04-15-2009, 09:38 PM

Try the following site you will find out all what you want to know.
see, it is no longer myth lots of people has done research...

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13155#13155

Marcelo-RJ

04-16-2009, 03:48 AM

:confused:
:eek:
:confused:

Marcelo

Hudson Li

04-16-2009, 06:25 AM

Interesting stuff indeed, but 99 out of 100 people here won't know how to read it.

This is for duende. You wrote:

HFY stands for Red Flower Boxer Society NOT Red Flag WIng Chun.
Something must be really wrong or someone must be really behaving in bad faith. Why does Benny Meng call his new organization Shaolin Wing Chun Red Flower Boxer Society, just to drive you H.F.Y guys crazy? http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/inicio.php

Hendrik

04-16-2009, 10:43 AM

wcextreme

04-17-2009, 04:28 PM

You guys go sort out what is what who is who, if you love to.

In the mean time, I am enjoying this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMYFqhXIW1o&feature=related

They are illusions
They are not the solutions they promised to be
The answer was here all the time

Don't cry for me Argentina

Have I said too much?
There's nothing more I can think of to say to you.
But all you have to do is look at me to know
That every word is true

Hey Hendrik, I can tell you are obsessed with singing but come back to reality for a second. Do you have any info on the Black Flag Eng Chun group in all your mountain of resource material? Can you shed any light on this?

The last I heard of them, about 3 years ago, before the VTM got involved with them was that they were actually bandits who came about after the birth of New China in 1911. Before that, there was a lot of anti-manchurian movements, pro-Ching movements, and anti-foreigner movements, all over the place. In other words, the Boxer Uprising.

But after 1911 there was no more Ching Dynasty, so how can the Black Flag Eng Chun guys claim to be anti Ching when they came about after the demise of the Ching rule? This is the problem with HIS-story, isn't it???

That's like Pres Obama fighting for MLK Jr's cause when it's been nearly 50 years after the fact!

On top of that, how can they have anything to do with the development of Wing Chun when they weren't around before the 20th century???

Of course, this is last I heard of them before the VTM came up with another HIS-tory.

Anything you got that can help on this topic? Any use of black flags in your archives, or in your WC ancestry?

wcextreme

04-17-2009, 05:05 PM

I don't believe in Shaolin having 3 Halls. There's 36 Halls, and each are used for individual kung fu styles! I guess the VTM's next step is to fill in the other 33 halls of their theory.

I don't believe in learning a Chinese Mixed Martial Arts program created by someone who isn't a certified Sifu in the arts he's mixing.

Why don't we all take a couple of workshops on a particular martial art, like Chi Sim for example, incorporate it into a marketable product, and scam the buyers into believing it's the real deal???

I AM SO P1SSED AT MYSELF for falling for it. Never again. Do not go to their schools. Do your homework before you spend your money!!!

Besides, Shaolin Wing Chun already exists: www.shaolinwingchun.com

They're from Vietnam. :eek:

Hendrik

04-17-2009, 09:15 PM

Hey Hendrik, I can tell you are obsessed with singing but come back to reality for a second.

dont ask me about Ms. Wing Chun, watch this clip and found out for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRks3wpCfU

chusauli

04-18-2009, 08:43 AM

Besides, Shaolin Wing Chun already exists: www.shaolinwingchun.com

They're from Vietnam. :eek:

Dear wcextreme,

WCK has never been proven to be from Shaolin at all, let alone Vietnam or other places.

Its only verifiably traceable to the Opera Boat people, and only after the Opera Boat people were forced to leave the Opera due to the Li Wenmao incident.

There is a saying in history, "Those who don't learn history's lessons are doomed to repeat them."

Best regards,

TenTigers

04-18-2009, 09:22 AM

is that why Hendrick has been singing so much as of late?:D

Hendrik

04-18-2009, 09:53 AM

is that why Hendrick has been singing so much as of late?:D

hahaha

Another song for the Wing Chuner, I like the lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRe4Dk327wg

看不穿是你失落的魂魄
猜不透是你瞳孔的颜色
一阵风一场梦爱如生命般莫测
你的心到底被什么蛊惑

Unable to see throught your wandering spirit.
Unfathomable, the colour of your puplis.
A passing wind, a walking dream, Like life, WCK remains undefined
Your heart, what confuse it so?

Yang_Siheng

04-20-2009, 10:13 AM

chusauli

04-20-2009, 11:24 AM

I think you are certified in whatever a person gives to you on the certificate. If you take the certificate, you are the one who is certified with "so and so" training. I would not take that in accord with one's skill, but rather, someone who has fulfilled requirements to be certified as such.

As for specifics on Master Meng's organization, you'd best contact them.

Certificates are more of a Japanese innovation and especially important as legal documented training here in the USA and western world.

Yang_Siheng

04-20-2009, 11:28 AM

Thanks for the info Mr. Chu its much appreciated.

wcextreme

04-21-2009, 04:14 PM

My question on this topic would be this:
As with most programs, certifications etc... once completed you are recognized as having completed the minimal qualifications for said specialized topic. And recognized for such by a legit organization. That being said is Benny Mengs Shaolin 3 Halls program recognized by Shaolin as a legitimate Shaolin system or led alone training method?? If not then why is it using the name Shaolin and stating that the Master has a certain level or degree in Shaolin. Is Benny Meng recognized by Shaolin for his said degrees? Everyone knows of the Shaolin 36 chambers or halls.
It seems if someone is using the word Shaolin as a training model then it should atleast be recognized by Shaolin regardless of how "modern wushu" like Shaolin seems they should atleast have an idea or "oral legend" if this method has always been in existence at Shaolin.

That's just my thought on this topic.
Any insight would be appreciated.

Yang

It's no longer a question. Benny has been promoting himself as a 9th generation Shaolin disciple when we all know he's a disciple of HFY. 9 generations removed from Shaolin? People must have lived a very long time. There are no official endorsements from the Shaolin Temple that I've seen at his school. I've often wondered why we never learned actual HUNG FA YI WING CHUN, and so I figured either it's really that advanced (not for beginners/intermediate folk) or he must have not learned enough of it to teach it with competence.

I spent too many months of my life in his school, yet I can't even follow the HFY discussions on HFY108. Lol. Why is it all the guys in CA and AZ can hold conversations about what they've learned in HFY with such detail, yet a long time (former) student like myself has no clue what they are talking about - they can talk in details I simply have never heard in Ohio. Even some of their system details contradict what I've been taught. Why? It's because Benny doesn't spend time teaching HFY to people. I was told it's too advanced for me to learn, and I have to learn the basics of martial arts first called the four combat skills. Granted I did learn a lot of things in those classes, but now I know it wasn't HFY. Did I pick up skills? Yes, but after watching what happened on HFY108 a couple months back, with questions being asked by a lot of people - and questions I had myself - and no answers being given by any of my sihing or sisuk I knew that something wasn't right. If other schools can teach HFY to beginners, then why couldn't it be done at his school? That made no sense AT ALL. So I quit. It's all a BS show they're running.

If you want HFY and live in Ohio, just realize that you're SOL. It's pretty darn clear they ain't teaching HFY anymore. At this point I don't give a cr@p if I learn Wing Chun so long as I can apply what I know and protect myself and my family. Don't waste my time or hard earned money with a bait and switch. Integrity? That's my bottom line, and it'd better be there when the buck stops. There's so many different schools in the Dayton area I'm not worried about that anyways.

As for "Shaolin disciple"? It's a scam and IMO an insult NOT to demonstrate some frickin' respect and honor to the HFY family as a disciple and teacher and student. I don't see any other instructors in HFY promoting themselves like that. :eek: What's he got to be ashamed about?

And the VTM's new venture with Black Flag? Good luck with your new version of HIS-story. I've a long time friend who teaches Chinese history in London. She's doing research on the Boxer Uprising and secret societies right now. The Black Flag group came about after 1911 not before that. The 1850's and "1911 New China" are two different eras. New China's got nothing to do with the Ching Dynasty which also means the Black Flag (known as bandits from her research) have nothing to do with anti-Ching movements and Wing Chun at all. Wing Chun existed before 1911, so the "history" on their website is total BS.

Bo_toxic

04-22-2009, 09:42 AM

Yes I have watched the Black Flag website change their pages over the last 4 or so years too. With so many changes happening so often its hard to get a grip on what they are trying to promote as their own tradition and history regarding their anti-Qing connections.
My own research show that the Black Flag Army was a division of the Manchu Army which in 1854 were primarily used to fight off the invading French in Vietnam.
Then you have the well known Rebel Bandit groups the Black Flag and the associated Red Yellow and Green groups from Northern China's Shan Tong Province but they did not come into existance until 1919 - 1923 meaning they have no anti-Qing connection because the Qing were no longer in power at that time. This was all documented by Author Elizabeth Perry in "Rebels and Revolutionaries in North China".
So even mixing the 2 and trying to confuse the issue doesn't really work because of the time line that removes the possible anti-Qing connections. So I would think more changes should be expected from the Black Flag Web pages or at least some more detail into how they could ever be associated with any anti-Qing groups.

Can someone from either org. the Black Flag org themselves or the VTM if you could explain the anti-Qing connections or claims from the Black Flag website it sure would clear up maybe not all the issues but mabe the simplest ones to start.
http://www.engchunkun.com/history.html

punchdrunk

04-23-2009, 12:08 PM

anerlich

04-23-2009, 03:38 PM

I know that basicaly people are accussing B. Meng of lineage jumping just to make a few more $$ but really couldn't he make more money by just having more HFY seminars?? Maybe he's just researching black flag because he found something new and important there? Just asking as the devil's advocate, I find it hard to beleive he has any need for another certificate or license in his resume.

I think the reason for people getting annoyed and the rampant skepticism is that Benny seems to be using pretty much the same marketing spiel, even some of the same text, for Black Flag that he did for HFY, and then going on to say more or less "HFY was inner circle but Black Flag is the inner circle of the inner circle". Its hard to avoid seeing this as anything but transparent, and lazy, opportunism.

A number of readers of MKF etc. had problems with the claims about HFY at that time. and there seems to be no attempt to address those in this new campaign.

AS for more seminars, maybe Benny's HFY well is drying up, and he needs another bandwagon to ride.

Benny also has a history of lineage jumping - Moy Yat, TWC, HFY, BF (sorry if I left anyone out), and waxing equally hyperbolc about each of them. Either he's an eternal fanboy or not totally honest.

If Black Flag is the shiznit as claimed, then this marketing strategy will do it no favours.

And of course, the old maxim - if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Anyone remember the old dubbed Japanese TV show "Phantom Agents"? With the arch bad guys "The Black Flags of SMIG Z"?

chusauli

04-23-2009, 03:47 PM

Also is it true that B.Meng was a student of R. Chu? I know these type of questions are undelicate but so is the humour that's been going around the forum and knowing more of the situation could help me understand it.

What is the relevance of this?

Over ten years ago, Benny Meng came to me twice in Los Angeles to take private lessons under me. One time for about 3 hours, another time for about 10 hours. He came and paid for lessons, and I reviewed with him forms, structure, applications, Chi Sao and weaponry of the way I taught and also went through my Gu Lao WCK system.

At that time, we were friendly and we openly shared information. We also shared the same root in Moy Yat's Ving Tsun. Interestingly, Benny also came out to meet my friend, Andreas Hoffman, at the first Weng Chun seminar in the US held at Hawkins Cheung's school in Los Angeles. And we even had lunch together with Andreas and Hendrik Santo.

Over the years, politics ruined that relationship, and recently, we put things behind us. Its not a secret, especially on this board. He has studied with GG for the past decade and most recently with Kenneth Lin. Whatever he does, I only wish the best for him.

I hope this answers your question.

LSWCTN1

04-24-2009, 05:24 AM

What is the relevance of this?

Over ten years ago, Benny Meng came to me twice in Los Angeles to take private lessons under me. One time for about 3 hours, another time for about 10 hours. He came and paid for lessons, and I reviewed with him forms, structure, applications, Chi Sao and weaponry of the way I taught and also went through my Gu Lao WCK system.

At that time, we were friendly and we openly shared information. We also shared the same root in Moy Yat's Ving Tsun. Interestingly, Benny also came out to meet my friend, Andreas Hoffman, at the first Weng Chun seminar in the US held at Hawkins Cheung's school in Los Angeles. And we even had lunch together with Andreas and Hendrik Santo.

Over the years, politics ruined that relationship, and recently, we put things behind us. Its not a secret, especially on this board. He has studied with GG for the past decade and most recently with Kenneth Lin. Whatever he does, I only wish the best for him.

I hope this answers your question.

what a respectful answer. its nice to see :)

punchdrunk

04-24-2009, 08:29 AM

R. Chu thanks for the answer, I was just trying to get more of the overall picture. A lot of the humour has come from you and your student T. and I was curious if there could be personal reasons.

Annerlich you have a good point too... if RF is marketed the same way as HFY it will seem pretty shallow, but also pointless. Upper echelon of the inner circle of the once secret fighting style of secret societies, still has to prove itself by having competent students. That would matter more than any super duper history!

chusauli

04-24-2009, 09:40 AM

Humor is what we can all share in. And real life is often stranger than fictional satire. :)

anerlich

04-24-2009, 10:22 PM

Upper echelon of the inner circle of the once secret fighting style of secret societies, still has to prove itself by having competent students. That would matter more than any super duper history!

you are indeed correct.

Bo_toxic

04-24-2009, 11:08 PM

1919-1940...山東土匪中以黑旗會最邪惡以搶劫、勒贖為生的黑旗會土匪公開叛敵.日本侵略者利用漢奸黑旗會成員為其侵華反共服務。<中共历史记录>
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2763&page=2
Since I can't read Chinese not that I speak it either but anyway can someone translate for us say Hendrik or one of the Chinese speaking members thanks.

CFT

04-25-2009, 02:30 AM

Just look further down that thread. Duende has translated it correctly.

In the Shantang province, the bandit group known as the black flag society and their chief Lau Gui Tang betrayed the Chinese army to the Japanese invaders. They are considered the worst of the bandit groups from this time period, because not only did they rob and kill, but actually betrayed their Chinese race.

(Chinese Government Historical Document)

Oops ... sorry he translated the preceding text but the sentiments are the same.

Hendrik

04-25-2009, 07:21 AM

as in the Ip Man movie, WCK is not about fighting fighting with brute force and showing power....etc.

the teaching of Buddhism in the lotus sutra

"With violent and dangerous sports
And all manner of frivolous games,
As well as with dissolute people,
You should not seek to involve yourself whatsoever. ---- lotus sutra chp 14

http://www.mit.edu/~stclair/Lotus14.html

The WCner's ancestors and Buddhist MA's direction is very clear.

What good is it to make the rebels, bandits, secret soocieties/ religious group, figthing fighting violance group to be an idol ? The following are these type of groups either using the Daoism, Buddhism, or anti -qing for their own in appropriate self-center self fish action which actually screwing China up.

Why choose a path of do no good to others and screw up one's own live? those are the sickness of China. and now people think they are hero?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

　　本文涉及到的「土匪」，就是指超越法律范圍進行活動而又無明确政治目的，并且以搶劫、勒索為生的人。土匪是1949年前中國一個嚴重的社會問題，它不僅人數眾多，分布面廣，還擁有自己的武裝和根据地，甚至能左右當地的政治、經濟和社會生活，從而形成「官匪分治」的格局。

「會道門」是一种從事特殊宗教、社會或政治活動的，具有秘密宗旨和禮儀的，与政府抗衡的秘密團体。在194 9年前的中國，所指的就是一些异端教派如黃天道（亦稱黃天教）、先天道（亦稱先天教）等（此類組織主要頌經拜神、制造和傳播迷信邪說，迷信色彩极為濃厚）和會門組織如哥老會、紅槍會、大刀會等等（此類偏重吞符念咒，練功習武，据地自保），也就是統治者所說的「邪教」1。

　　自近代以來，中國的土匪和會道門的活動一直是密切相連的。到了民國時期，它們的關系更加密切，已呈現錯綜复雜、難解難分的局面2，對中國政治、社會產生著日益重大的影響。基于這個原因，本文將二者視為一個整体予以研究。

　　史料顯示，民國時期，東北的馬賊、閩浙兩廣地區的海盜、太湖運河地區的鹽梟以及蘇豫皖、湘鄂贛、西北諸地區的土匪均以驃悍、善戰而在全國具有重要影響。保守估計，1930年全國土匪人數為2,000万左右3。山東是全國土匪問題最為嚴重的省份之一。据統計，1918年，山東約30個州縣曾擁有土匪三万多名，步馬槍約2.3万枝，自來得槍3,000余枝，他种手槍2,800余枝4。而魯西東昌一帶就曾擁有「土匪一万余人，匪首300余人」5。到1930年，山東境內的土匪人數超過20万人6。山東土匪都是有武裝、有組織的，大的成千累万，具有較強的戰斗力（如劉桂棠部號稱「黑旗軍」，曾流竄整個華北）。1921年11月，北洋陸軍一營剿匪官軍在曹州劉庄便被擊敗7。至于發生于1923年5月的臨城劫車案更是震惊中外的大事。民國時期，中國的會道門勢力也极為強大。以當時山東的會道門為例，該省會道門有的影響力遍及全國，如一貫道﹔有的在華北地區產生影響，如八卦教、皈一道、九宮道、圣賢道以及以紅槍會為中心的各种槍會﹔至于省內的會道門組織更是不胜枚舉，計有150余种，据已知道的會道門就有：新民會（不同于漢奸新民會）、复興會、保皇党、圣人道、斥堠隊、黃天道、五道會、九宮道、万字會、先天道、黑旗會、紅旗會、黃旗會、藍旗會、白旗會、青旗會、皇天教、一貫道、八卦教、戰壇會、道德會、紅槍會、無极道、九宮會、同心會、快道万仙會、万國道德會、猴子會、大刀會、金鐘罩、大地壇、小地壇、皈一道、黃中會、小刀子會、孫臏大師會、眼光會、清真會（婦女占多數）、西干會、金丹會、青年會、老年會、金錢會、中央道、圣賢道（又名一柱香、無形無像道）、秘密教等五十几种8。

http://www.rbw.org.cn/article.aspx?ty=uuw&i=uLk&pg=2

Hendrik

04-25-2009, 02:53 PM

Just look further down that thread. Duende has translated it correctly.

Oops ... sorry he translated the preceding text but the sentiments are the same.

1, again, what good is to become cult member or rebels or bandits.
True shao lin doesnt produce those type of stuffs.

2, VTM has to clearify are the two black flag from a similar group or different. Until then, my take is innorcent until proven guilty.

Hendrik

04-25-2009, 03:00 PM

more on Black flag

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Yongfu

So which is which? and what is the relationship with WCK?

Bo_toxic

04-27-2009, 03:32 PM

which is which is something we must learn on our own. There is obvious conflicting information coming from the Black Flag web pages their own credibility is in question because they have been changing their own history not with new information but with information that might help them market their product to the general public. That was before Benny Meng Joined them.

Benny Meng and the VTM have their own credibilty to deal with since this is the same Benny that changed his Chi Sim training to Shaolin kung fu so he doesn't have to give credit for that training to GM Hoffman. Which is similar to a pattern that caused Benny's feud with the Moy Yat family which is now in line with Black Flag looking and sounding similar to HFY. The pattern continues so its nothing new to see Benny confusing the identity of the Bandit Flag org. 1919-1923 Black Red Yellow and Green flags for his own marketing purposes.

I think the reason for people getting annoyed and the rampant skepticism is that Benny seems to be using pretty much the same marketing spiel, even some of the same text, for Black Flag that he did for HFY, and then going on to say more or less "HFY was inner circle but Black Flag is the inner circle of the inner circle". Its hard to avoid seeing this as anything but transparent, and lazy, opportunism.Yeah anerlich I have to agree with you. I feel good it is so transparent because even his newbies might be able to see it for what it is. At the same time I also agree it is so transparent because Benny at this late stage of the game seems to be "lazy" careless in his pursuit of more and more profits.

This is why if you want to know which is wich you will have to do some of the research.

wcextreme

04-29-2009, 03:35 PM

I took my kids up to Toledo for the past few days. Needed to get my mind off things. Had a great time up by Maumee Bay.

So I checked my email today and got two interesting messages. One was an invitation to check out another local school in Dayton (thanks btw! I'll check it out). The other was an invite for the next Black Flag workshop at Meng's Martial Arts. Anyone interested in going?

Date: 4/27/2009 2:06:59 PM
Subject: (Huber) Special Workshop May 16th

Dear Students, Parents, and Friends,

On Saturday, May 16th, from 9a to 4p, Meng's Martial Arts and the Ving Tsun Museum are proud to host Sifu Kenneth Lim of the Black Flag Wing Chun system for the first ever public workshop.

In six hours you will receive actual experience with an expert, hear first-hand discussions on the history and philosophy of this newly revealed system, and have the opportunity to experience the system directly from the Fourth Generation Master.

The core system in our schools is Wing Chun. Wing Chun is known for efficiency and the ability to be dangerous and generate explosive power in very short distances, such as Bruce Lee's famous 3-inch punch.

Can you imagine being able to do damage and finish an altercation quickly, with one move - and no distance? This is something that mostpeople have only heard about... and you have the chance to see it for yourself. This is your opportunity to experience it for yourself.

The VTM's latest discovery is the Black Flag Wing Chun. We invited the only Master teaching in the United States for a special workshop... get registered today! The workshop is the 3rd weekend in May - you can still pre-register and save $10 for regular students and $22.50 for black belt club members.

Speaking for myself, Sifu Lin's ability to release power is most impressive. According to what he's shared with me, his teacher is multiple times better and more powerful... yet he's in his sixties and weighs less than 130 lbs! I hope to see you there!

Sincerely,
Master Meng

Hendrik

04-29-2009, 04:04 PM

wcextreme

04-29-2009, 04:09 PM

I know that basicaly people are accussing B. Meng of lineage jumping just to make a few more $$ but really couldn't he make more money by just having more HFY seminars?? Maybe he's just researching black flag because he found something new and important there? Just asking as the devil's advocate, I find it hard to beleive he has any need for another certificate or license in his resume.

Also is it true that B.Meng was a student of R. Chu? I know these type of questions are undelicate but so is the humour that's been going around the forum and knowing more of the situation could help me understand it.

Extremewc I feel sympathy for you, no-one deserves to leave a school feeling they were somehow cheated. May I ask what you were taught and for how long? I have no connection with HFY or the VTM so I don't know what may be happening between G. Gee and B.meng but maybe you could share some experience?

Benny isn't teaching HFY anymore. As you can tell from my post above, that once more they just remove the label and repackage their course material. I checked out some Chi Sim vidz and it is what it is. What I learned was not to look at styles, and focus on how things connect at a universal level. Inefficient -> Effective -> Max. Efficiency. Benny doesn't really teach the classes either. His senior students do a lot of the work. In the end, everything is HFY and HFY is everything - or so I thought.

There's a lot of good people there, and I have good friendships there, but I simply cannot learn there I know what I want and it's not MMA's MMA. You'll pay a lot of money for something you won't get, and that's legit Wing Chun.

"The CORE systems in our schools is Wing Chun???"

Effing smoke screens. Enter the Jeet Kune Do!

wcextreme

04-29-2009, 05:02 PM

Go,
these days there is no different between Martial art and entertainment.

So why not? spend some money social with others get some entertainment.

Life cant be to serious, it is an illusion anyway.Wow :eek:

Ummm..... NO.

Hendrik

04-29-2009, 09:04 PM

Wow :eek:

Ummm..... NO.

hahahaha,

Everything is the reflection of your Buddha Nature. Accept everything and nothing is so good or bad.

When there is no Self, there is no time, no space, no energy. It is just it is.

So? what is not peace and silence?

Rolf

05-07-2009, 10:56 PM

First Blood

05-07-2009, 11:41 PM

Is Benny Meng still teaching Hung Fa Yi material? Maybe he is now just using a different name, “Black Flag Eng Chun”?

Would the Black Flag Eng Chun Grandmaster really allow that to happen? If so, what does that say about their lineage and their lack of commitment to it. The “Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun Formula” seems pretty close to the “Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Formula” to me.

Check for yourself. Keep in mind, Benny Meng spent 10 years learning Hung Fa Yi. Now, only recently, he has found “The Answer” in Black Flag.

http://www.blackflagwingchun.com/main.html

Who cares ? Its his Life , why the deep concern ?

It's attitudes like yours that makes WCK a joke amongst martial artist, you would rather spend your efforts on polictics than training !

If he found 'The Answer' in BF then maybe instead of b*tching about it, it might me a good idea for you to have a look as well, afterall how do you know you have it right ?

Hudson Li

05-09-2009, 06:29 AM

Benny Meng deeply disappointed G.M. Moy Yat.
Benny Meng deeply disappointed G.M. Robert Chu.
Benny Meng deeply disappointed G.M. Andreas Hofman.
Benny Meng deeply disappointed G.M. Garrett Gee.
All his previous teachers got VERY disappointed with him.
It seems many of Benny Meng's students in North and South America left him when he once more betrayed a teacher, namely G.M. Garrett Gee.
Too sad. I'd say that It's attitudes like Benny Meng's that makes WCK a joke amongst martial artist.
Don't play de censor. This forum is free and Benny Meng is among its subscribers, so it seems he can speak for himself if he wants or needs to.

First Blood

05-09-2009, 10:59 AM

It seems many of Benny Meng's students in North and South America left him when he once more betrayed a teacher, namely G.M. Garrett Gee.

What do you mean by betray ? Did he receive his training for free, or did he pay a fee for tuition ? Or did he get a refund and that is what you are b*tching about ?

Too sad. I'd say that It's attitudes like Benny Meng's that makes WCK a joke amongst martial artist.

Anything polictical and unrelated to training or performance is seen as a joke, and if i am not mistaken it takes 2 sides to create polictics.

Don't play de censor. This forum is free and Benny Meng is among its subscribers, so it seems he can speak for himself if he wants or needs to.

I am doing no such thing, i just prefer a more balanced thread. In case you havent realised we talk about different instructors all the time, sometimes good and sometimes bad, how many of them have actually responded personally, and why should they ?

I dont see any of the 3 GM listed posting on here ?

Do you somehow think that you are an acting WCK judicial court of Law ?

No one is denying you free speech, but its clear from your posts that your intent are full of personal and vindictive hate towards this guy, maybe an Agony Aunt counselling or grievance forum might be more appropriate ?

anerlich

05-09-2009, 11:41 PM

If he found 'The Answer' in BF then maybe instead of b*tching about it, it might me a good idea for you to joined as well, afterall how do you know you have it right ?

He earlier claimed to have found "The Answer" in TWC, and then in HFY.

He seems to have messed up twice before as far as "The Answer" goes, so follow his example at your peril.

First Blood

05-10-2009, 01:23 AM

He earlier claimed to have found "The Answer" in TWC, and then in HFY.

He seems to have messed up twice before as far as "The Answer" goes, so follow his example at your peril.

True and history can repeat itself, but on the otherhand as they say ;

Failiure is part of the process to success, after all its hard to find what we dont seek.

Bo_toxic

05-10-2009, 08:54 PM

He earlier claimed to have found "The Answer" in TWC, and then in HFY.

He seems to have messed up twice before as far as "The Answer" goes, so follow his example at your peril.

Some people are saying that as long as Benny can squeeze as much money out of his students (clients) as possible, he doesn't seem to care about true history or "The Answer." Take a closer look in Brazil where Benny and Alex Magnos have been teaming up behind Garrett Gee's back for many years, collecting a lot of money and certifying people to teach HFY in Brazil without Garrett Gee's knowledge or permission. It seems that in Brazil, people are greedy, money hungry, and manipulative. Do you really think Black Flag Eng Chun has an answer for wing chun? No way!! Black Flag Eng Chun's own credibility is in question based on their claims on their old website - they claim that black flag, green flag, yellow flag, and red flag are the secret group of the secret societies of Wing Chun, which cannot be true because even according to the Chinese government's history they are a group of bandits and traitors cooperating with the Japanese army killing the Chinese people in the beginning of the 19th century. That is the REAL history of Black Flag. How can he claim himself to be a historian when he doesn't even understand basic Chinese history?

Hendrik

05-10-2009, 09:17 PM

You know, I think Benny knows how to market and organized stuffs very well. and he loves it.

So, why Benny not use this skill to do good for WCK. and if he did good certainly he will deserve the profit where he put his effort into.

I really think we need to encourage him to be a real historian and to run a real museum.

I myself interested in doing my research and testing my experiment .... no interest at all for promoting WCK or organized or teaching.....etc. (in fact, I cant teach because I hate Dummy student ? or I have no patient toward beginner :D) So why not give the promotion of WCK job to Benny where he does well.

Bottom line, WCK benifit right? Every one benifit right?

You know, let's not practice Anti-Qi here, transcent Benny to be a succesfull WCK promoter and organizer, let him know we will support him and we are all WCners.

WCK needs some one to do the organization and promotion job right? so give it to Benny who can do a good job.

I know some might think I must be out of my mind. Well, my real job is thinking out of the box .

as my latest Idea of creating a Latin WCK or LWC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL7CW7p-25Q
life is too short for anti this and anti that.
hahahaha

Just some thoughts.

Peter-Malave

05-10-2009, 11:45 PM

Hi Hendrik,

I think Bo Toxic has a great point. The Black Flag Eng Chun history is highly suspect as a fake. There are a lot of texts that have been translated from Chinese government docs shared by Boxer1408 here:

Historical question from Rio de Janeiro (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2763)

I believe you read Chinese. Can you tell if the translations are accurate enough? There is a google translator (http://translate.google.com/translate_t#) that translates this part:

山東土匪劉桂棠是黑旗會的领袖,他一面投靠日本侵略者,充當侵華日軍的「皇協軍前進總司令」. 幹著屠殺中共幹部及進步人士、殘害人民群眾、進攻八路軍的罪惡勾當。<中共历史记录>

as this:

Shandong is刘桂棠bandit's black leaders, to join his side of the Japanese invaders, the Japanese invasion of China to serve as the "imperial army advance Society commander-in-chief." Stem the progress of the massacre and the Chinese Communist cadres who harm the people, to attack the criminal activities of the Eighth Route Army . <Chinese Communist history>

And this:

1919-1940...山東土匪中以黑旗會最邪惡以搶劫、勒贖為生的黑旗會土匪公開叛敵.日本侵略者利用漢奸黑旗會成員為其侵華反共服務。<中共历史记录>

中华人民共和国国歌義勇軍進行曲

As this:

1919-1940 ... bandits in Shandong will be the most evil black flag with robbery, kidnapping of the black flag will be living in public disaffection against the enemy bandits. Japanese invaders would use a traitor black service members for their anti-communist invasion of China. <Chinese Communist history>

Volunteer march People's Republic of China national anthem

I can't speak on Benny Meng's business practices, but after his separation from the HFY association it seems he went full steam into the Black Flag Eng Chun Association without validating their history.

I posted some comments on that thread but didn't get too much of a response to my actual questions:

"I searched the web and came up with threads here and on KFO when googling. I've also read up on the Black Flag Army, and they don't seem to have any connections to the history on the BF's website or the other stuff people are finding now. The Black Flag Army and the Black Flag Eng Chun are definitely not one and the same. Is there anything about the Black Flag Eng Chun group that is actually true?

What is it about the Black Flag group that the Ving Tsun Museum sees as worthy for historical recording? And from the posts on kung fu magazine, why would Benny Meng and his staff deem it necessary to replace what they've integrated from HFY into their training product with Black Flag's kung fu? Does the BF kung fu really compliment their training model to the point it actually can replace the HFY content?

Hopefully after their workshop they'll have more answers, but so far everything looks to be a personal invention of the Benny Meng. This doesn't look good for their credibility as historical researchers."

What doesn't fit for me is where this group came across their Wing Chun, because in the 1920's guns and knives were the weapons of choice and there was no more anti-Ching movements. I don't see any plausibility in the BFEC having any historical ties to the anti-Ching Wing Chun groups of the 1850's. This is contrary to the historical thread for Wing Chun in general. Forgive me for this pun, but the BFEC missed the "boat" on that one by about 70 years.

Much of the history I've read on Wing Chun has to do with restoring power to the Chinese people from the Manchurians. If the translations above are correct, the Black Flag Eng Chun group had to do with joining the Japanese forces and killing their own race in the modern era. I hope the VTM has considered these findings to verify them against the current version of the BFEC's history and any commonalities with the other Red, Green, etc... Flag societies.

Peter

Peter-Malave

05-10-2009, 11:48 PM

Oops. When I said "historical thread for Wing Chun in general" that was in regards to being anti-Ching just to clarify.

Peter

Hendrik

05-11-2009, 08:35 PM

To be Fair, there are different Black Flat group in China between 1850 and 1940. So, one must not lump them together.

Benny cannot see things clearly doesnt mean we have to follow his path.

Also, the claim of Chi Sim or HFY.....etc have never being support by solid evidents that suggest they exist in 1850. Thus, That is no different then the claim of Black flag. So, if Black flag is being questions then Chi Sim or HFY also have to be question in the same fair way.

As for the Ng Mui legend, we knows today, it is the White Crane from Fujian influence.... we can trace the DNA of the art of SLT/SNT to Fujian White Crane and even we know White Crane of Fujina does Endose WCK.

On the other hand, which Shao Lin willing to Endose WCK?

So, IMHO, stick with what we know and not Romancing the Anti-Qing or Rebels or Shao Lin, we got to see things as it is.

As for the Red flag, badana.....etc, Lee Man Mau is the biggest Leader, there is no other there. So? how can one explain the Hung Gam biu stuffs? must everyone discard the Facture history of China and believe in other speculation as the Truth?

Shao Lin? Which Shao Lin? Where Shao LIn?

Saying these above, I know I must Pi$$ off lot of people, but then, I rather put things up front.

otherwise, wait and see for yourself how is the historian 100 years later going to rate all of us. as the Chinese said, Paper cannot wrap fire. things and history will be sorted out.
Dont even get close if you dont want your name to be dirty in the history of WCK. There are still time to make proper correction and VTM still have time to do that.

I have addressed these in this forum and WCML about a decade ago but people dont believe me and some even make up all sort of things trying to discredit me.

after a decade or so, look at it, today, the White Crane and Snake stories never got modified but get clearer and clearer in details, more and more supportive information are surface.

You see, the Red Boat WCK ancestors which were accused to have WATER DOWN WCK were telling the truth and infact there were the REAL WCners.

and thier truth is being more and more proven because what ever has happen will leave a trace.

As a decendent of these Red Boat WCK ancestors, it is our duty to champion them, instead of create all kind of HIs-story and practicing Bully the sifu and Destroying the ancestors for one's own selfist benifit.

Those who betray their sifu will be betray by thier students, that is just the law of Karma. I hope those claim they are from Shao Lin learn this basic law of Buddhism.

Finally, in the Chinese Buddhism, it says, the sea of suffering has no end, turn back there is the shore. I hope all these his-storians turn back when things are not cast in stone.
Just some opinions.

Bo_toxic

05-11-2009, 11:07 PM

You know, I think Benny knows how to market and organized stuffs very well. and he loves it.

More than you and I can image, lol. Benny's follower, Alex Magnos, has made many crazy claims in Brazil in order to make some fast, easy money. Only recently, Brazilian martial arts communities became aware of the real history of Shaolin and more people are starting to realize there's no such thing as Shaolin 3 Halls or Shaolin Black Flag Eng Chun. For that reason, my Brazilian friend Peterson just told me that some of Alex's students also just left him.

So, why Benny not use this skill to do good for WCK. and if he did good certainly he will deserve the profit where he put his effort into.

Hendrik, Benny is twice as cunning as you at pulling in a profit! Benny's ambitions to replace Chi Sim and HFY with his Shaolin 3 Halls is his idea of doing good and deserving a prize. The only problem is many of his students would not buy into his self-invention of "Shaolin 3 Halls." In truth, many people are aware of Shaolin having 36 halls, not three halls, and secondly many of Benny's students know how much Benny had learned from Andreas Hoffman and Garrett Gee because they were also learning Chi Sim and HFY alongside Benny at the workshops. The funny thing is Benny now he expects more money from his students to pay for the same material repackaged under a different name. Is that an honest way to profit more from his students? Only Benny knows!

First Blood

05-12-2009, 12:38 AM

The funny thing is Benny now he expects more money from his students to pay for the same material repackaged under a different name. Is that an honest way to profit more from his students? Only Benny knows!

IMO i cant see anything wrong with mixing similar styles, this is the process to how we improve. History has shown us styles like Wing Chun,Choy Li Fut,Five Ancestors..... to name a few have successfully combined other styles to form a new fighting system.

As we all know MMA is the most obviously modern take on what has been happening for centuries in kung fu.

Take away the business side of things, as i dont see many people people boycotting Microsoft software because of their past business eithics or practices. At the end of the day to be good at business you need to eliminate the competition, the question should be, is the product any good ?

This is clearly polictics, and the one thing we know about polictians is that they dont always do the right thing for the people, but rather for their own personal agenda.

The person maybe dishonest, but are they paying for a good product ? MY/TWC/HFY/CS/BF sounds like as good mix to me than anything else out there !

So tell me, if the students are learning more new material, should the guy give it away for free ?

wcextreme

05-12-2009, 10:16 AM

Guys, guys, guys. You just don't understand. That's difficult to do without actual experience. Bo_toxic, Hendrik, Peter, First Blood, etc... Sifu Meng is in a unique position to understand all of us because he is the only one not trapped by illusions of style. He has created the new MMA of Wing Chun, and has proven to be much the wiser than all the grandmasters of the past. He has found the escape out of the traps of the classical mess. Shaolin Wing Chun is THE new Mixed Martial Art with an ever evolving tradition representing all styles and NO styles. This is the eternal spring! Hendrik, this perfect for you!

By removing the labels of other martial arts, and overlaying your own ideology, you too can do this. The only competition he faces is the "Rosy Bottom Cheeks For Wimpy Clown-@ss Knock Off" group (RBCFWCK). LOL

As an entrepreneur, he has to make a living and if that means charging more and more for an evolving system well then the evolution itself incurs cost upon its members. Common sense! We all need as much $$$ as we can, especially when some of us have four or more mortgages to pay off. :eek: These are very difficult times, you know. People make a living off of other people in one way or another. When business is the top priority, throats WILL get cut. That's a promise! Give things out for free First Blood? Hell no! Take them for all they got!

If Benny Meng is a lineage hopper, then he's the best gosh darn grasshopper around! David Carridine would be proud! Hop, skip, and jump your way beyond fads into the new horizon and blaze your own trail! Everything is an investment, and you should never put all your eggs into one basket! Alex Magnos has found his salvation in Benny Meng. Assimilation of your style into their Shaolin Halls is entirely possible. If their means of survival is to sell people a chinese buffet of Wing Chun flavors in the states and in Brazil, then realize some people live off of buffets. Yum! But if you want the sirlion steak, you'll have to go elsewhere. Boo. The problem will happen when you pay for the sirloin steak and get the buffet instead. Grrrrrrr. You get fed, but not what you wanted.

Sent: May 6, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: [Huber] The meaning of Tradition in the Martial Arts

Dear Students, Parents, and Friends,

At Meng's Martial Arts, we pride ourselves on being a traditional school. But to understand what that means, we need to understand the three types of Traditions: Modern Tradition, Dead Tradition, and Living Tradition.

Modern Tradition
This is the fad of martial arts from stereotypical ninja to kid's programs to cardio kickboxing to mixed martial arts. This approach typically comes on strong and then fades away over time. Only time will reveal if this approach will translate into one of the other two approaches.

Dead Tradition
This is where personality takes over, students mimic or copy the teacher or basically when asked why you do certain things, the answer is 'because the teacher says so ' or 'that's the way it's always been done.' *This type of learning is dead kung fu. Sifu Jeremy calls this "Convention" or "Conventional Thinking."

To begin the journey of martial arts, having a proper mentor or instructor is of paramount important. The essence of a good teacher or mentor is to act as a pointing finger to the truth and the student's true potential. The teacher's personality or personal likes and dislikes should not enter into the relationship. Once the foundation is laid for the student, one of the essential skills is for the student to be able to think and act on his or her own, rather than copying or blindly following the dictates of the teacher's whim.

Dead tradition also includes following a path blindly rather than testing the teaching against the realities of life.

Living Tradition
This is where students are constantly challenged and motivated to elevate their attitude, thinking, and lifestyle. In the true sense of a traditional system, knowledge and experience are preserved through successive generations allowing students to go into the system itself to find the answers to their questions about fighting, about attitude, about thinking, about success, and about life itself. The goal in a living tradition is to preserve the knowledge and wisdom of previous generations in a manner readily understandable by the new generation, without compromising the depth and breath of the original principles and knowledge, without sacrificing quality in the results.

By searching deeper into the system, you can discover the answers to your questions. This is our approach - we have breadth and depth, and universal Wisdom. We can relate to everything else rather than create separations. This is what Master Lin (of the Black Flag Wing Chun lineage) calls Traditional Progressive. Since I started the VTM project in 1993, I have never left the system... but students from the Dead Tradition mindset feel I have left the lineage or changed the system. In truth, I've just gone deeper into the concepts and principles that guide the Wing Chun system. To students of the Modern Training, Wing Chun was a fad of the late 70s and early 80s.

As a youngster and into my 20s in the martial arts my path, interest, and training revolved around swimming through the seas of style and technique. I was fortunate to train with many Masters and Grandmasters, yet if I continued on that approach, I would still be trapped by the illusion of style 20 years later. It wasn't until I started to focus on the Wing Chun system under great teachers such as Grand Master Moy Yat that I started to see a new way. The late Grand Master Moy taught about concepts and the nature of things. In essence, he was using a Chan approach to martial arts. This methodology is reflected in the VTM's approach to the Ip Man linage of Wing Chun: from techniques to attributes to mechanics to concepts. It was not until the past 12 years that the picture was finished and complete, when I was exposed to Shaolin Wing Chun, which goes deep into the principles and beyond. This experience led to the development of the Six Wisdoms and the current Halls of Shaolin approach to training the martial arts.

At this moment, I am no longer trapped by the illusion of style, dead traditions, or fads. I am no longer attached to the surface or external level of martial arts.

The goal of our training is to advance your ability and thinking, to be able to relate to all martial art families and appreciate what makes each family unique. My job as the Master Instructor is to blaze trails, motivate, and inspire those along the same path. I hope this email has helped to give you a better idea about Meng's Martial Arts and the outcomes we look to create in your life.

Sincerely,
Master Benny Meng

Hendrik

05-12-2009, 10:33 AM

Sifu Meng is in a unique position to understand all of us because he is the only one not trapped by illusions of style. .

From what you post, yes you are absolutely right.

wcextreme

05-12-2009, 10:54 AM

Hi Peter,
About the new Shaolin Black Flag Eng Chun guys. This is where their Wing Chun comes from:

"Our wingchun origin came from two sources, VIKOGA wingchun and Fukkienese Wingchun. VIKOGA Wingchun came from many different sources such as the Yip man lineage, Malaysia Wingchun, Nan Yang WIngchun, Vietnam Wingchun(Vingh Xuan), and Yuen Kay San Wingchun. Fukkienese Eng Chun (Wingchun) came from the Fukkien area in China and was brought down to Indonesia. It is a very unique Wingchun style and uses the fukkienese dialect."

Hendrik, enjoy the buffet but don't forget your wallet.

chusauli

05-12-2009, 11:25 AM

HumbleWCGuy

05-12-2009, 11:27 AM

Responding to the Original post.

I have never trusted the VTM. I think that everything that they do has an ulterior motive. If you ask me they are trying to set themselves up as authorities and elevate their WC above others. This is evident in their posts on this very forum. They try to impose their terminologies and ideologies unique to their style on others.

To be honest, I don't care if any of their story is true or not. What I care about is their motive.

anerlich

05-12-2009, 04:05 PM

I don't think the motive is anything beyond self-promotion, bandwagon-jumping and $$$. This is hardly unique or evil.

It's the marketing and the spiel that get under people's skin because it has in the past involved putting down others to build himself up and general insulting of the prospects' intelligence. Not that this is partcularly unusual either - look at William Cheung's marketing, as just one example.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. I bought MKF - I won't be buying anything else.

Bo_toxic

05-12-2009, 08:52 PM

The impetus falls on the consumer here. BM is merely passing on his system and way of teaching. Its fine. If you buy into it, great. If you don't, its okay. He doesn't force anyone to go to his school, but in the midwest, you probably have few choices, probably few have his credentials and understanding over there.

I think you have a point. What bothers my Brazilian friends the most is that Alex had only one HFY workshop with their GM Garrett Gee three years ago. Most people in Brazil are aware that Alex is not a certified HFY instructor. Please correct me if I'm wrong (anyone from HFY lineage), but I've read posts somewhere on hfy108 forum that only Garrett Gee can certify HFY instructors under the name of WHFYWCKFA, which Marcelo Santo had stated many times before. That begs the question, how could he have any credentials to teach HFY and certified people in Brazil? As far as I know, Alex's excuse to his associates is that he had already paid a big chunk of money to Benny and so now he could get away with anything. As you say, if you buy into it, great... But I know many of these Brazilians do not. I know that a lot of people are having doubts regarding the information on Alex's VTM website.

chusauli

05-13-2009, 09:21 AM

It is true only GG can certify people from his organization and his system.

BM can certify people from his system and organization.

If Alex is teaching, then he is simply teaching BM's art that he was certified in, and not necessarily HFY as taught by GG...perhaps to distinguish it, it should be called VTM HFY?

duende

05-13-2009, 01:17 PM

If Alex is teaching, then he is simply teaching BM's art that he was certified in, and not necessarily HFY as taught by GG...perhaps to distinguish it, it should be called VTM HFY?

No.

There is only now and forever one Hung Fa Yi Red Flower Rightous. Our system is founded upon the physics of Time, Space, and Energy, and has a highly defined and constant logic flow throughout. It is therefore not open to self-interpretation and/or modifications.

These (Time Space Energy) are not merely marketing terms or buzz words, but rather an accurate description for our system's basis of knowledge. We have been using these terms long before they became popular in martial art's circles, and will continue to do so.

VTM's WC schools already have a name they have been promoting for sometime now. Namely "Shaolin Wing Chun".

Rolf

05-13-2009, 10:06 PM

wcextreme

05-14-2009, 10:16 AM

[QUOTE=anerlich;934239]I don't think the motive is anything beyond self-promotion, bandwagon-jumping and $$$.

It's the marketing and the spiel that get under people's skin because it has in the past involved putting down others to build himself up and general insulting of the prospects' intelligence.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. QUOTE]

I agree 100%

Putting others down is generally a negative thing. Especially when he's been jumping from one lineage to another. So it's official, the VTM does not teach HFY. It teaches "Shaolin Wing Chun" or "Black Flag Wing Chun." Or is it Krav Maga or Chi Sim Weng Chun?

By the way, who is the leader or GM of the "Shaolin Wing Chun" system? is BM the leader or does he have an instructor?

Rolf he does teach HFY, just not the way it's done on the west coast. He doesn't call it HFY anymore either, but the material was there. The same thing happened with the Chi Sim stuff a while back. Shortly after Benny Meng stopped pursuing his CS research, he removed the Chi Sim label from his program but kept the content for a while. Hence the use of the name "Shaolin Wing Chun." He has no Sifu as you can tell from his letter on Tradition and Martial Arts. It's a good read. He is the Clyde Drexler of the "trail blazers". Lol!

Robert, have you ever been booked on a wrong flight? I'll put it this way to you. Let's say you book a nonstop flight from LA to SF. You purchase your ticket. Your purchase goes through no problem so far! During your flight the pilot decides to stop in Burbank, Phoenix, Vegas, Reno, Denver, Spokane, and Portland before hitting SF. Tell me you wouldn't be a tad bit upset. Business is just business, but what's business without integrity? Extreme!

We get to where we are because things happen, and we should not regret our experiences I know. I don't. I'm just ****ed I didn't get the nonstop flight I paid for. When Benny Meng first moved here in OH he was looking for a kung fu school. His teacher said "yeah we teach kung fu" and signed him up. He wasn't a kung fu teacher. The irony man.

Where the hell did the BF/VTM workshop thread go???
EXTREME!

chusauli

05-14-2009, 10:24 AM

Robert, have you ever been booked on a wrong flight? I'll put it this way to you. Let's say you book a nonstop flight from LA to SF. You purchase your ticket. Your purchase goes through no problem so far! During your flight the pilot decides to stop in Burbank, Phoenix, Vegas, Reno, Denver, Spokane, and Portland before hitting SF. Tell me you wouldn't be a tad bit upset. Business is just business, but what's business without integrity? Extreme!

Thank you. Yes, I understand where you are coming from. I'd certainly have to speak to the BBB, Consumer Affairs, or management about this airline and their flight policies and about improper business transactions like bait and switch, time delay, possible refunds, etc. Most airlines will try to accomodate their unhappy passengers.

BTW, here's more on VIKOGA: http://www.vikoga.com/

Marcelo-RJ

05-14-2009, 06:02 PM

The problem in Brazil is that Benny Meng have been teaching his whatever-it-is stuff for the last four years under the label Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It was only when I went to SF and brought some of GM Gee's teachings to Rio that part of my colleagues realized that we were not learning HFY, although we paid so high for that.

Even now, that Benny Meng is no longer a HFY man, his franchises in Brazil keep on selling part of the VTM cr@p under the label HFY. Just take a look at shaolinwingchun.com.br and you'll see that, apart from Black Flag Eng Chun, Alex Magnos is still promising fake HFY black belts for those who are willing to buy them.

The sad part of it is that Rio is the only focus of resistence against Meng's + Magnos' cr@p and a lot of people, specially in the North of Brazil, still believe that Benny Meng and Alex Magnos are the real deal. And when those people look at the pictures at shaolinwingchun.com.br, they take those funny positions for HFY's structures.

Of course, some will soon realize they're being cheated. I remember when Benny inserted some pseudo-BJJ ground game to his pseudo-HFY/Shaolin/Three Halls and tried to teach it in Rio. Hey, halt!!!!!!!!! How can anyone think of teaching "BJJ" in RIO DE JANEIRO not being a real BJJ teacher?

Now, Alex Magnos + Benny Meng say they'll make you a black belt with all of the skill and knowledge of Taekwondo, Karate, Northern Shaolin, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Krav Maga, BJJ, Judo and Wrestling (yes, that's what you'll find at www.shaolinwingchun.com.br). I, who practice MMA with a majour Brazilian team, am a witness of how real fighters laugh on Wing Chun, specially when they speak of things like shaolinwingchun.com.br. For me, Shaolin Wing Chun is a disgrace, for it will never be able to give people what it promises. I bet neither Alex Magnos nor Benny Meng would ever roll with ANY Brazilian JJ or Luta Livre blue belt. Never ever.

Bo_toxic

05-14-2009, 07:36 PM

First Blood

05-15-2009, 07:19 AM

I, who practice MMA with a majour Brazilian team, am a witness of how real fighters laugh on Wing Chun

I'm curious, in light of what you have just said, why do you still continue to learn Wing Chun ?

Marcelo-RJ

05-15-2009, 07:52 AM

First Blood (hmmm... I guess I know who you are...), why should I stop learning Wing Chun? The thing is: who are you learning from and what is s/he teaching you? In my case, I decided I would not keep on paying for the VTM pseudo-HFY program; instead, I'd learn from the source. And that's what I did, but not without having Benny Meng threatening and slandering me and my colleagues of Rio de Janeiro for almost three years.
Yes, I love MMA, but I'm sorry to tell you that I prefer to learn from the ones who really master what they teach. If I want to learn Muay Thai, I'll go to a Muay Thai expert, not to Meng/Magnos. If I want to learn Luta Livre or BJJ, I'll go to the best guys in the world, never Meng/Magnos.
Yes, if I wanted to learn something in Moy Yat's line, maybe I'd go to Benny - maybe, I say, for Leo Imamura's, one of Moy Yat's top students, has a nice school here in Rio. But, no, I wanted to learn HFY and I got tired of being deceived by Benny Meng and his pseudo-HFY "Shaolin/Three Halls of Shaolin" Wing Chun.
The point is: stuff like what is seen at www.shaolinwingchun.com.br under the affirmation of being the supreme martial art that comprises all the secrets of the all the other martial arts is laughable. So, how should I blame my Vale-Tudo colleagues??? And, since that cr@ap is not Wing Chun, why should I stop learning Wing Chun from someone who masters it?

Bo_toxic: yes, you're right. The Sifus who live in Brazil did not want to have anything to do with Benny Meng. Some of them met him once or twice, but soon discarded the idea of keeping any conection with the VTM or its curator.

chusauli

05-15-2009, 09:06 AM

I am curious as to what BM taught in Brazil, after all, did he not study and teach HFY for 10 years at all his branch schools? I do not understand. And did not GG authorize him and his schools to teach HFY? How does something like this happen?

Again, why is it fake HFY, as opposed to real HFY? Is it not from the same source?

First Blood

05-15-2009, 10:02 AM

I am curious as to what BM taught in Brazil, all, did he not study and teach HFY for 10 years at all his branch schools? Again, why is it fake HFY, as opposed to real HFY? Is it not from the same source?

Hard to believe after 10 years he taught fake HFY more likely either ;

1) There probably was real HFY material, but it was encorportated into a broader program so you had to really understand inorder to separate it out.

2) As often happens, what we learned suddenly becomes fake after we leave our Sifu under non amicable circumstances.

3) Benny spoon fed HFY material at such a slow rate to draw out his programs.

Marcelo-RJ

05-15-2009, 11:30 AM

Benny Meng used to teach a little bit of everything under the label Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun: Chi Sim, Krav Maga, English Boxing, Wrestling, "Yip Man" Wing Chun, Kickboxing etc. There was some HFY progressions within his program, but, apart from the Siu Nin Tau form, the material he learned from GM Garrett Gee was "for black sash club members only". If you buy his "Shaolin Wing Chun DVD Series", you'll have a glimpse of the pseudo-HFY he taught us (Benny Meng's program was posted by myself to hfy108.com; maybe you can find it with a little search).
Of course, we are not that fool and from the start we perceived that he was not teaching us Wing Chun and that he was hidding the real HFY material from the broader public, but each time we questioned his teachings he (1) promised "next time" he'd show us some amazing stuff from the HFY Headquarters; or (2) said we should learn proper Kung Fu etiquette and stop questioning our superior; or (3) threatened us by saying he'd expell us if we dared to contact GM Garrett Gee directly; or (4) called us - specially, myself and Jacques Menezes - some bad names, such as snakes, nobodies, idiots, on hfy108.
One thing that seemed to be so strange was that each time Benny was showing us part of the material he was learning from GM Garrett Gee, he had to double check his personal notes or to take a look at his "secret" HFY DVDs. I believe that was because he was much more concerned with creating his Shaolin Wing Chun than with practicing what GM Gee was teaching him.

First Blood, you're quite wrong: I've been complaining about Benny Meng and Alex Magnos and their not-so-hidden agenda for the last four years. When GM Gee gave me permission to learn directly from him, more than two years had passed since I and my colleagues from Rio started to question Benny Meng openly. So, what was fake was fake much before we left our "Sifu".

chusauli

05-15-2009, 11:45 AM

There was some HFY progressions within his program, but, apart from the Siu Nin Tau form, the material he learned from GM Garrett Gee was "for black sash club members only".

One thing that seemed to be so strange was that each time Benny was showing us part of the material he was learning from GM Garrett Gee, he had to double check his personal notes or to take a look at his "secret" HFY DVDs. I believe that was because he was much more concerned with creating his Shaolin Wing Chun than with practicing what GM Gee was teaching him.

This is quite strange - Are you saying that BM was not allowed to teach "Black sash club member" material to students who were in his "Black sash program"? How would other HFY be able to teach then? Since I never studied in a commercial school, I am quite confused with this strange practice. Was this how HFY was taught traditionally? And as you say, there are HFY progressions in his material. It all sounds odd.

Why would BM, a 10 year student of HFY, have to look at notes, DVD's? I thought HFY was not allowed to be videotaped? After all, he taught it daily at his school..? Perhaps there is some misperception? He is a competent martial artist and when I knew him, he remembered all the 3 sets of WCK, the jong, pole and knives quite well.

Marcelo-RJ

05-15-2009, 07:31 PM

No. What I'm saying is that if you go to SF, you'll learn HFY right away.
On the other hand, if you went to one of BM's schools, you'd NOT learn HFY (with a little help of luck, sooner or later you'd find you were not learning HFY) unless you enter (by paying much much more than a regular student) his "Black Belt Club". The Black Belt Club member would first learn a lot of other stuff under the label HFY and between one grade and another, he'd practice a little bit of what he paid for, that is, HFY.

As to BM needing to see notes and dvds, my belief is that he was focused in creating his Shaolin Wing Chun, so he did not have the time required to master the stuff he was learning from GM Garrett Gee (differently from the Yip Man lineage stuff, that he surely mastered by training focused for a lot of years).

And, hey, not only we, from Rio, but also some of the old BM's schools in the US quit for the very same reason, so I do not believe in misperceptions here.

chusauli

05-16-2009, 08:50 AM

Marcelo,

Thank you for clearing this up.

I guess I am still confused, if you joined the "Black Sash/Belt Club" (Why do you have to join one if you are in the same school? :confused:), how much more do you have to pay? And then wouldn't you be learning essentially the same as what the HFY SF taught?

I can understand everyone is different and teaches a curriculum slightly different, after all, that is human nature.

How many of BM's schools have also quit? Is that not disloyalty and dishonorable to the sifu and system that he "opened" you with? It seems you did not have a relationship of trust built up.

I realize this is a traditional Chinese martial arts mind set I probably have.

Thank you for your replies.

Best regards,

Marcelo-RJ

05-16-2009, 10:48 AM

Mr. Chu,

Frankly, I don't know how much it used to cost for Americans to join BM's black belt club. In Brazil, that was a few thousand dollars.

And then wouldn't you be learning essentially the same as what the HFY SF taught?

No. In fact, you'd be learning Chi Sim, Taekwondo (spinning kicks included), English Boxing, Wrestling, Yip Man Wing Chun, Krav Maga etc, everything under the name "Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun". If you dared to complain, you'd be called a "Fau Kiu Student". Eventually, at the end of each grade, you'd learn one or two techniques that are taught in SF.

I do not know how many schools quit in the US, but I'm sure at least two of them did.

As to disloyalty... well, all I can say right now is that we, from Rio, brought BM to Brazil at least four times in order to have "administrative meetings" and try to solve the problems. From the start, we saw him betraying GM Garrett Gee - the DVDs that he sold and/or gave us were just a small part of a long history of betrayals, and we tried and tried (in vain) to convince him that his behaviour was not fair, neither with us, neither with our Grand Master. It was only when the situation reached the point of the unberable that we asked GM Garrett Gee to intervene and try to settle things down. That was 2007, and it seems that from then to 2009, BM did not take the chance to step back and correct his behaviour.

I wish him luck, though, and hope his way within the Black Flag group will be clearer.

chusauli

05-16-2009, 01:34 PM

Marcelo.

Thank you again. Wow, a few thousand! :eek:

LOL! Fau Kiu must mean something bad in your HFY lingo, but I thought that is just a natural progression in your system...but of course, it sounds like a more derogatory term... LOL!

Sounds a bit like bait and switch...and then 1 or 2 techniques?

2 Schools? That's a long time and very deep hurt on all sides.

Its very sad.

Marcelo, we have a lot in common - I have experiences similar to you, perhaps we should chat in private some time. Email me anytime.

canglong

05-16-2009, 03:05 PM

originally posted by Robert Chu
Wow, a few thousand!

When you accepted the thousand dollars from Master Meng years ago I doubt you said wow then.

originally posted by Robert Chu
Over ten years ago, Benny Meng came to me twice in Los Angeles to take private lessons under me. One time for about 3 hours, another time for about 10 hours. He came and paid for lessons, and I reviewed with him forms, structure, applications, Chi Sao and weaponry of the way I taught and also went through my Gu Lao WCK system.

WOW Robert maybe you forgot about the time you charged Master Meng thousands of dollars for the priviledge of listening to you read notes off a pad when Master Meng was representing the VTM doing historical research. Robert again you reveal yourself as someone with hidden agendas and less than honorable intentions. Again you are showing 2 faces one in public that would have you surprised and dismayed at the mention of thousands of dollars being payed to a certified Sifu and the one in private where you charge thousands of dollars for simply reading your notes.

Whatever happened between Marcelo and Master Meng is between student and teacher and no business of yours. Robert why would you try to instigate illwill online with your little game of criticizing the methods of Master Meng for doing something you have always done.
Robert when Master Meng wanted to investigate your Gu Lao background further you wouldn't even provide him with the necessary information to do so. But today WOW you are here online passing judgment on the private actions of Master Meng and the relationship of one of his private students. Robert you were a hypocrite when you were taking Master Meng's money then and you are a hypoctite now for your public display of interest about something that does not concern you, wow.

Peter-Malave

05-16-2009, 03:28 PM

Hey guys, I wanted to share an interesting website I found while googling. If you read the thread, there is a good amount of people who know quite a bit about the Shangdong province and the Japanese and German involvements.

Militaryphotos.net (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=85248)

Alan Orr

05-16-2009, 05:59 PM

When you accepted the thousand dollars from Master Meng years ago I doubt you said wow then.

WOW Robert maybe you forgot about the time you charged Master Meng thousands of dollars for the priviledge of listening to you read notes off a pad when Master Meng was representing the VTM doing historical research. Robert again you reveal yourself as someone with hidden agendas and less than honorable intentions. Again you are showing 2 faces one in public that would have you surprised and dismayed at the mention of thousands of dollars being payed to a certified Sifu and the one in private where you charge thousands of dollars for simply reading your notes.

Whatever happened between Marcelo and Master Meng is between student and teacher and no business of yours. Robert why would you try to instigate illwill online with your little game of criticizing the methods of Master Meng for doing something you have always done.
Robert when Master Meng wanted to investigate your Gu Lao background further you wouldn't even provide him with the necessary information to do so. But today WOW you are here online passing judgment on the private actions of Master Meng and the relationship of one of his private students. Robert you were a hypocrite when you were taking Master Meng's money then and you are a hypoctite now for your public display of interest about something that does not concern you, wow.

Hey Tony

You are talking BS as always. The web is a great place to talk and then hide.

Paying for lessons is normal. I talked to Benny when he was in the UK and he had nothing bad to say about my teacher Robert Chu. In fact he made it quite clear it was a few mindless guys from the HFY group that continued with this pointless line of thought.

I think the 'wow' is for the 'show' fee, which was not an instructional fee.

Alan Orr

First Blood

05-16-2009, 06:19 PM

Marcelo.

Marcelo, we have a lot in common - I have experiences similar to you, perhaps we should chat in private some time. Email me anytime.

Its common knowledge on here that you and Benny were not on the best of terms. So its a little hard to imagine your gesture being genuine or honourable. So do you entend to console Marcelo ?

Marcelo-RJ

05-16-2009, 06:44 PM

Whatever happened between Marcelo and Master Meng is between student and teacher and no business of yours.

I think the 'wow' is for the 'show' fee, which was not an instructional fee.

Tony, brother;
Alan,

Let me clarify this. There is a lot of wrong information circulating in Brazil and abroads regarding Benny Meng and the original South American HFY group in Rio de Janeiro. So, I guess it's a good opportunity to give out our (Rio) version of the facts, which is supported by solid evidences, as some threads at hfy108 register.

The main reason why we quit the VTM was that for years we watched BM and his Brazilian partner, Alex Magnos, betraying GM Garrett Gee and, although we had many, many "administrative meetings" in which those things were discussed upon with BM and AM in person, nothing really changed in spite of all the promises that were made by those two gentlemen. Another relevant reason was that we were spendind rivers of money and BM insisted in not teaching us only HFYWC - rather, specially after the beginning of 2005, the focused his teachings in a kind of MMA curriculum which was conveniently baptized "Outside-the-box HFYWC".

So, yes, the problem regarding money was not paying for the lessons. The problem was that we were paying for something and receiving another thing. If we had received that what we paid for, there would be no monetary problem at all. That's quite fair: s/he who knows charges; s/he who wants to know pays for it. If fees, dues and prices are previously adjusted and agreed upon, that's fine.

And this deserves a note: GM Garrett Gee gave many an opportunity to BM and AM to step back, unfortunately in vain. But this is another history and I end-off here.

Thank you for this opportunity,

Marcelo

chusauli

05-17-2009, 09:01 AM

So, yes, the problem regarding money was not paying for the lessons. The problem was that we were paying for something and receiving another thing. If we had received that what we paid for, there would be no monetary problem at all. That's quite fair: s/he who knows charges; s/he who wants to know pays for it. If fees, dues and prices are previously adjusted and agreed upon, that's fine.

Thank you for this opportunity,

Marcelo

Marcelo,

Thank you, you are a man of class. You are absolutely correct - paying for the lessons and time is correct when you are shown the materials you asked/agreed upon.

Personally, I charge for my time and I show everything and then more. I believe that if a person has a sincere desire to learn, I teach. I even show you the list my sifu taught me off of, which has become a distorted story, so you know I have not left anything out. I try to be a thorough teacher.

Many thanks for your time and energy. You are a class act.

Best regards,

duende

05-17-2009, 09:37 AM

Tony, Alan...

Let's keep this thread on topic. As we all know there was plenty of negative energy back then to go around.

No need to beat a dead horse into the ground.

Good training to all.

Ultimatewingchun

05-17-2009, 09:45 AM

Alan Orr

05-17-2009, 04:29 PM

Tony, Alan...

Let's keep this thread on topic. As we all know there was plenty of negative energy back then to go around.

No need to beat a dead horse into the ground.

Good training to all.

I am not sure why you are asking me to keep on topic. I was only making clear my stand point on the lies that tony likes to keep putting out. I answered every lie put out by these few guys like tony. In the end I was banned from the hfy forum as they could not 'win' with the BS they talked.

SO, as long as we have no BS then the quite life is good for me. I don't care one bit about which colour flag is up who's a-s! I just like to train. But I will not have people talk BS about my teacher.

These same guys all hide when it come to the real world. Walk on and start thinking about what you should be doing with your time.

Best

Alan

duende

05-17-2009, 05:05 PM

I am not sure why you are asking me to keep on topic.

Because you both went off topic... and I thought it would be good for every one to chill before we had another waste of time flame war.

I was only making clear my stand point on the lies that tony likes to keep putting out. I answered every lie put out by these few guys like tony. In the end I was banned from the hfy forum as they could not 'win' with the BS they talked.

You were banned because you didn't like the answers given to you. This being because you are simply outsider to our organization. In the end it got silly and redundant. But if you think you made some grand point then more power to you.

SO, as long as we have no BS then the quite life is good for me. I don't care one bit about which colour flag is up who's a-s! I just like to train. But I will not have people talk BS about my teacher.

No BS? Great... I'm all for it. So with that in mind, just how exactly does my comments warrant this response of yours?

FWIW, I tend to believe that most of us would actually get along quite well in real life. Hard work, dedication, an experience tends to make people more open-minded.

Anyways, most of us have better things to do then play king of the mountain on a silly internet forum.

Alan Orr

05-17-2009, 05:35 PM

Because you both went off topic... and I thought it would be good for every one to chill before we had another waste of time flame war.

You were banned because you didn't like the answers given to you. This being because you are simply outsider to our organization. In the end it got silly and redundant. But if you think you made some grand point then more power to you.

No BS? Great... I'm all for it. So with that in mind, just how exactly does my comments warrant this response of yours?

FWIW, I tend to believe that most of us would actually get along quite well in real life. Hard work, dedication, an experience tends to make people more open-minded.

Anyways, most of us have better things to do then play king of the mountain on a silly internet forum.

Same old stuff. Your comments say it all. Who is playing king of the mountain? I don't post much on wing chun forums. The only time I do is when I feel I need to voice my point if my teacher talked about or when I am asked a question.

I post updates on what my group is doing in mma / training as guys show interest on our feedback.

Other than that ....? when I read stuff that makes me laugh. The hfy site was very funny, but I am not allowed to play anymore.

duende

05-17-2009, 05:51 PM

Same old stuff. Your comments say it all. Who is playing king of the mountain? I don't post much on wing chun forums. The only time I do is when I feel I need to voice my point if my teacher talked about or when I am asked a question.

I post updates on what my group is doing in mma / training as guys show interest on our feedback.

Other than that ....? when I read stuff that makes me laugh. The hfy site was very funny, but I am not allowed to play anymore.

Alan,

My King of the mountain comment wasn't aimed at you. Just giving a portrayal of the foolishness that can take place here, that's all.

Btw... The Southern Shaolin Forum really is for everyone. I encourage anyone who is interested to come by and check it out. (even those who got banned can come back if they like ;) )

Best,

Alex

Alan Orr

05-18-2009, 10:11 AM

Alan,

My King of the mountain comment wasn't aimed at you. Just giving a portrayal of the foolishness that can take place here, that's all.

Btw... The Southern Shaolin Forum really is for everyone. I encourage anyone who is interested to come by and check it out. (even those who got banned can come back if they like ;) )

Best,

Alex

Hi Alex

Thanks for your pm. I think we agree that positive debate is what a forum is for. I hope others from your group see it the same way. As I said we should be able to agree or disagree, but not be personal about it.

I be happy to join in with more fourm exchanges. I hope people can see that questions are not attacks. Questions are to clear our minds not close them.

Best

Alan

LSWCTN1

05-19-2009, 05:23 AM

hi Marcelo

can i ask if you are one and the same Marcelo who studied Shaolin wing chun under Andria Pivcevic?

i am not naive enough to think that there arent mopre Marcelo's in Brazil, just wondering thats all!

Marcelo-RJ

05-19-2009, 12:06 PM

Hey, LSWCTN1!

Although I've met Andria once or twice, I've never trained with/under him. BTW, I haven't heard any news about him for a long, long time.
All I can say is that Andria was wide known in his neighborhood for wearing Shaolin or middle age European military costumes on the streets, and that his Kung Fu had plenty of different things, like animals styles blended with some Wing Chun movements.
He seemed to be a silent and nice man.

Bo_toxic

05-19-2009, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Victor Parlati
***NOT SURPRISED in the least. Benny Meng is one of the biggest phonies I've ever met in all my 34 years in the martial arts. He's played a lying, cheating, double dealing game of self promotion time-and-time again. And this is just the latest chapter.

I 've noticed that Benny Meng is not a popular person. Even Moy Yat's families had many issues with him, including a monetary issue. So, in this case, there is only sorrow!

Originally posted by Marcelo Santo

Yes, if I wanted to learn something in Moy Yat's line, maybe I'd go to Benny - maybe, I say, for Leo Imamura's, one of Moy Yat's top students, has a nice school here in Rio. But, no, I wanted to learn HFY and I got tired of being deceived by Benny Meng and his pseudo-HFY "Shaolin/Three Halls of Shaolin" Wing Chun.

Benny Meng just wants to be rich and famous, he goes beyond likes and dislikes. I believe he doesn't give a **** about anything except his wallet.

GeneChing

04-15-2013, 10:30 AM

Marcelo-RJ

04-15-2013, 02:42 PM

Vajramusti

04-15-2013, 03:01 PM

[QUOTE=Marcelo-RJ;1225559]Man, oh man, why did you do this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Commerce.

Marcelo-RJ

04-15-2013, 03:06 PM

$ure! $ign of time$ :(

GlennR

04-15-2013, 03:08 PM

Yawn, yawn................... yawn

Another, 1st seen, never released, blah blah blah.....

Good for an argument though, come on you Black Flag guys.... defend your honour!

Vajramusti

04-15-2013, 03:38 PM

[QUOTE=GeneChing;1225531]
Like tossing a grenade in the room...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a hand grenade-just a dud.

duende

04-15-2013, 04:09 PM

If anyone's curious about the Tin Yan dei structure/5-line theory seen on the posters in the promo vid actually works... DON'T WATCH THE VIDEOS!! :p

What a mess.

Wayfaring

04-15-2013, 07:37 PM

Like tossing a grenade into the room....

And by "grenade" obviously what Gene means is the "Jersey Shore" / urbandictionary.com definition -

the fat girl that needs to get laid before anyone else in the room gets action

GeneChing

04-16-2013, 01:33 PM

Commerce.
Just like every media platform, we must cater to our advertisers. When another style can bring us some income, I will welcome them.

Eric_H

04-16-2013, 01:42 PM

Just like every media platform, we must cater to our advertisers. When another style can bring us some income, I will welcome them.

Then why not switch to a mostly MMA focused format? That's where the money is right now.

At least till ninjitsu makes a comeback in 2015.

GeneChing

04-16-2013, 01:50 PM

Then why not switch to a mostly MMA focused format? That's where the money is right now.

At least till ninjitsu makes a comeback in 2015.
Well, there's actually a glut of MMA mags out there right now. There are a lot of small start-ups giving start-up MMA companies the promise of eyeballs, but they aren't really getting that much distribution and for some, the bubble has already burst. Our main advertiser, MartialArtMart.com (http://www.martialartsmart.com/), caters to a lot of different styles, including MMA (http://www.martialartsmart.com/mma-gear.html), but with so many small start-ups, there isn't a big enough market share to justify going that direction. Our company, TC Media Intl, has published magazines dedicated to the other styles previously (Dojo (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dojo-magazine.html), Dojang (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dojang-magazine.html), World of Martial Arts (http://www.martialartsmart.com/world-martial-arts.html)) but none of those proved as successful as Kung Fu Tai Chi (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kungfu-magazine.html). In short, we've found our niche on the newsstands. I hope you all understand.

As for ninjas, they don't advertise. They are ninjas. ;)

Vajramusti

04-16-2013, 01:55 PM

Then why not switch to a mostly MMA focused format? That's where the money is right now.

At least till ninjitsu makes a comeback in 2015.
-------------------------------------------

The MMA journalism field is already fairly crowded.Even the old Black Belt mag is heavy with mma.
material. With the demise of JAMA and Inside Kung Fu..- Kung Fu mag still has a market.

poulperadieux

04-16-2013, 02:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea8ZUUuZ14

Masta Ken Said : "Stop Ninjutstu".

Wise man.

JPinAZ

04-16-2013, 02:42 PM

And by "grenade" obviously what Gene means is the "Jersey Shore" / urbandictionary.com definition -

the fat girl that needs to get laid before anyone else in the room gets action

Haha. In this instance, I took "grenade" to be more akin to a turd with a lit M-80 stuffed into it..

enoajnin

04-16-2013, 02:51 PM

After seeing the number of views jump a thousandfold for the new KFM Black Flag vid, all I know is I need to make me a Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun video. Cheese and rice is it getting viewed.

Vajramusti

04-16-2013, 04:18 PM

Benny Meng's ship has flown many flags. Not too long ago- one of them was for Garrett Gee
and HFY.

Eric_H

04-16-2013, 04:51 PM

Benny Meng's ship has flown many flags. Not too long ago- one of them was for Garrett Gee
and HFY.

Yep, and we all know how that went.

Wayfaring

04-16-2013, 04:53 PM

Well, there's actually a glut of MMA mags out there right now. There are a lot of small start-ups giving start-up MMA companies the promise of eyeballs, but they aren't really getting that much distribution and for some, the bubble has already burst. Our main advertiser, MartialArtMart.com (http://www.martialartsmart.com/), caters to a lot of different styles, including MMA (http://www.martialartsmart.com/mma-gear.html), but with so many small start-ups, there isn't a big enough market share to justify going that direction. Our company, TC Media Intl, has published magazines dedicated to the other styles previously (Dojo (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dojo-magazine.html), Dojang (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dojang-magazine.html), World of Martial Arts (http://www.martialartsmart.com/world-martial-arts.html)) but none of those proved as successful as Kung Fu Tai Chi (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kungfu-magazine.html). In short, we've found our niche on the newsstands. I hope you all understand.

yep understand the niche - hope you keep it there. and advertising revenue keeps things in circulation so no worries there....

Wayfaring

04-16-2013, 04:56 PM

Yep, and we all know how that went.

http://www.wisconsincentral.net/People/People/USSComfort_files/kamikazeattack.jpg

Josexx

04-16-2013, 08:16 PM

After seeing the number of views jump a thousandfold for the new KFM Black Flag vid, all I know is I need to make me a Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun video. Cheese and rice is it getting viewed.

more like vodka and gulliable views. everything about black flag is fake, right down to number of youtube views. black flag buys views, likes, ect. from this site. fake fake fake

http://buyfanstoday.com/youtube-views/buy-youtube-views
5000 views 99$
10,000 views 195$

LoneTiger108

04-17-2013, 02:38 AM

Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s-dcrS-4xE)

Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun: Basic Movements (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bm013.html)
Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun 18 Lohan Part 1 – Separate Drill (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bm014.html)
Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun: 18 Lohan Part 2 - Basic Applications (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bm015.html)
Wing Chun 8 Slashing Sword (Pat Cham To) (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bm012.html)

See also The Treasure of Southern Shaolin By Benny Meng, Shaolin Special 2013 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1088)

First of all... I thought I was the only crazed Wing Chun Flag waver around here, so this comes as a huge blow to my international business!! WAIT! They are called Black Flag, but DO NOT have any Flag Training??!!! I may be in the clear :)

Personally I have no issue with any individuals interpreting what they like from what they know and calling it whatever, but it get's a little boring when the 'truth' is shielded from the masses, even by the more commercial magazine publications who obviously service the money-makers in Martial Arts out there more-so than the smaller more personal groups. Mind you, this may be the way it all works in the USA.

We had the promise of an uprising in the UK but that has since dwindled and now, since Benny and his business partner are at least selling this as Lohan stuff, the HKB dudes are looking at another relaunch attempt here... but the close Chinese Martial Arts community here will not be fooled and there is already an undercurrent of speculation from some pretty knowledgable characters who will challenge what they see with specific questions and some may even want to cross hands too.

They may well have an audience of newbies and converts, but like other trends, it may simply just pass through with very little impact on the many Wing Chun families here that already have a hold on the commercial market.

GeneChing

04-18-2013, 10:43 AM

the more commercial magazine publications who obviously service the money-makers in Martial Arts out there more-so than the smaller more personal groups. Actually, the majority of our content services the 'smaller more personal groups'. We don't have that many outside advertisers, usually about half a dozen total. The bulk of our articles focus on smaller groups because let's face it, Kung Fu and Tai Chi are relatively small, at least in an economic sense. We're huge in the grassroots sense, but they generally don't advertise.

Vajramusti

04-18-2013, 10:52 AM

Actually, the majority of our content services the 'smaller more personal groups'. We don't have that many outside advertisers, usually about half a dozen total. The bulk of our articles focus on smaller groups because let's face it, Kung Fu and Tai Chi are relatively small, at least in an economic sense. We're huge in the grassroots sense, but they generally don't advertise.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Yup. Gene has a huge task keeping the magazine alive in a difficult economy and market.
I read the Indian Martial art article and ignored the black flag.
Minimalist but supportive.

LoneTiger108

04-19-2013, 06:01 AM

Actually, the majority of our content services the 'smaller more personal groups'.... The bulk of our articles focus on smaller groups because let's face it, Kung Fu and Tai Chi are relatively small, at least in an economic sense.

Nice to see you have this approach to your magazine... as many others do not especially here in the UK

Josexx

04-19-2013, 04:50 PM

Personally I have no issue with any individuals interpreting what they like from what they know and calling it whatever, but it get's a little boring when the 'truth' is shielded from the masses, even by the more commercial magazine publications who obviously service the money-makers in Martial Arts out there more-so than the smaller more personal groups. Mind you, this may be the way it all works in the USA.

hey Lonetiger
i also read something interesting on this link http://vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com/
worldwide the truth is coming out.

LoneTiger108

04-21-2013, 04:14 AM

hey Lonetiger
i also read something interesting on this link http://vtmshaolinbull5hit.blogspot.com/
worldwide the truth is coming out.

Wah! And I was trying to be diplomatic because I haven't bought a copy of the magazine in a while now but this blog really does stick it to these guys... I know there are always many sides to the same story, its what makes Wing Chun so diverse, so in cases like this I really don't know who to believe and if I'm honest, because I don't teach for profit, I don't care and have no business that will be affected.

Josexx

04-26-2013, 01:36 PM

Man, oh man, why did you do this?
Nice dancing, nice hakka-style shaking movements, many taps on the same arm before hitting the opponent etc. Now it's clear that this black flag thing is the fakest wing chun around. Man, oh man...

After i read through all these public information about Kenneth Lin, I can understand his feeling towards the false black flag story. A lot of marketing talks about a big fictional story about its fake past, pushing its fake story in every way imaginable. whether its franchise, magazines, videos, gulliable students, the story is fictional. The fake stories changes constantly to fit the market, marketing names change, pedestals change, stories change. The attempt to spread the latest fictional story is to repeat the lies 1000 times in hopes it $ell$. But really what are the actual events, motives and questions to ask?

Where do the 5 flag fictional story come from?
It comes from one person, Kenneth Lin.

Where did Kenneth Lin's kung fu come from?
1.In Canada about 10 years ago people said Kenneth Lin's Wing Chun was immature, that he was more of Wing Chun fan.
2.Public information and Sifu Sergio research and 18 Lohan members point all in the same direction to Kenneth Lin's past..
Kenneth Lin's websites and internet activitys points in the same direction. Base on Kenneth Lin, himself on his old websites his teachers are Master Tio and Chung Che Man.
See Kenneth Lin give credit to his teachers, Master Tio and Chung Che Man here and another variation of the fake story.
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory
Chung Che Man who is 5th generation Ip Man teacher.

Whats the motive for the 5 flag fictional story?
Kenneth Lin's 18 Lohan teacher, Master Tio, said he help Kenneth Lin repackage 18 Lohan with a Wing Chun name because his student Kenneth Lin ask him to help with his failing business. Kenneth Lin told Master Tio the Wing Chun name is the way to go.

Later on Master Tio realized how serious he was tricking the whole martial art community with this fictional story. Master Tio felt like this was the biggest mistake of his life and had great regret. so he apologies in written statement and on video that 18 Lohan is not Wing Chun. This is the most screwed up story ever to ask your teacher to lie and ruin the his schools repetition.

Actually both of Kenneth Lin's teachers deny black flag wing chun. Master Tio says 18 Lohan is not Wing Chun. Inside Chung Che Man's Wing Chun family not one person said anything about black flag. Kenneth Lin is the only student of both teachers to say anything about black flag wing chun.

Another interesting part is when Sifu Sergio first met Kenneth Lin. Kenneth Lin told Sifu Sergio that Biu Jee was lost. So Kenneth Lin never learn the complete Wing Chun system from Chung Che Man. Sifu Sergio said Kenneth Lin's SLT look like modified Ip Man SLT.

Many parts of Kenneth Lin's fictional story changes to fit the market. Just recently he change names again from shaolin hkb kuntao to shaolin black flag wing chun. Nobody in there right mind can keep up a fictional story.

Kenneth Lin motive was the Wing Chun name to promote his failing business. Kenneth Lin did not learn the complete Wing Chun system from Chung Che Man and 18 Lohan is not Wing Chun. Both of Kenneth Lin’s teacher deny the black flag wing chun fictional story.

anerlich

04-27-2013, 08:08 PM

Nobody in there right mind can keep up a fictional story.

There are a number of religions with billions of followers who show that statement to be false.

PalmStriker

04-27-2013, 09:53 PM

There are a number of religions with billions of followers who show that statement to be false. There's Gold in them thar Religions. :)

dante-s

05-03-2013, 05:41 PM

After i read through all these public information about Kenneth Lin, I can understand his feeling towards the false black flag story. A lot of marketing talks about a big fictional story about its fake past, pushing its fake story in every way imaginable. whether its franchise, magazines, videos, gulliable students, the story is fictional. The fake stories changes constantly to fit the market, marketing names change, pedestals change, stories change. The attempt to spread the latest fictional story is to repeat the lies 1000 times in hopes it $ell$. But really what are the actual events, motives and questions to ask?

Where do the 5 flag fictional story come from?
It comes from one person, Kenneth Lin.

Where did Kenneth Lin's kung fu come from?
1.In Canada about 10 years ago people said Kenneth Lin's Wing Chun was immature, that he was more of Wing Chun fan.
2.Public information and Sifu Sergio research and 18 Lohan members point all in the same direction to Kenneth Lin's past..
Kenneth Lin's websites and internet activitys points in the same direction. Base on Kenneth Lin, himself on his old websites his teachers are Master Tio and Chung Che Man.
See Kenneth Lin give credit to his teachers, Master Tio and Chung Che Man here and another variation of the fake story.
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory
Chung Che Man who is 5th generation Ip Man teacher.

Whats the motive for the 5 flag fictional story?
Kenneth Lin's 18 Lohan teacher, Master Tio, said he help Kenneth Lin repackage 18 Lohan with a Wing Chun name because his student Kenneth Lin ask him to help with his failing business. Kenneth Lin told Master Tio the Wing Chun name is the way to go.

Later on Master Tio realized how serious he was tricking the whole martial art community with this fictional story. Master Tio felt like this was the biggest mistake of his life and had great regret. so he apologies in written statement and on video that 18 Lohan is not Wing Chun. This is the most screwed up story ever to ask your teacher to lie and ruin the his schools repetition.

Actually both of Kenneth Lin's teachers deny black flag wing chun. Master Tio says 18 Lohan is not Wing Chun. Inside Chung Che Man's Wing Chun family not one person said anything about black flag. Kenneth Lin is the only student of both teachers to say anything about black flag wing chun.

Another interesting part is when Sifu Sergio first met Kenneth Lin. Kenneth Lin told Sifu Sergio that Biu Jee was lost. So Kenneth Lin never learn the complete Wing Chun system from Chung Che Man. Sifu Sergio said Kenneth Lin's SLT look like modified Ip Man SLT.

Many parts of Kenneth Lin's fictional story changes to fit the market. Just recently he change names again from shaolin hkb kuntao to shaolin black flag wing chun. Nobody in there right mind can keep up a fictional story.

Kenneth Lin motive was the Wing Chun name to promote his failing business. Kenneth Lin did not learn the complete Wing Chun system from Chung Che Man and 18 Lohan is not Wing Chun. Both of Kenneth Lin’s teacher deny the black flag wing chun fictional story. Josexx, i find ur post over on FB. I think you are few who can answer regard this Lim guy. To changing Chinese history as you share link from WC pedia, this guy make up his own story of history. Ur link showing this is fact now. My queston to u sir, if reason why is for save business why chose to make up history? I follow ur explaining to use Ving Tsun name to making new image but i don't see why also he make up new history 4 that same reason. I do tho see a photo on FB that may be real reason why this Lim guy do try to change history. What do you think about this photo from FB showing Lim comment?

dante-s

05-03-2013, 06:08 PM

Here is the link to the FB page http://www.facebook.com/pages/Planet-Ving-Wing-Tsun/255251561276573

dante-s

05-13-2013, 04:42 PM

Josexx provide a clear picture of this guy.

Kenneth Lin’s kung fu experience is not check out to achieve grandmaster level. Just 10 year ago in Canada people who met Lin report that Lin,s kung fu was very young & green they say he more like a Wing Chun fanboy , & Sergio done his own research finding there is no Cham Kiu no Biu Tze in hkb & interview Lin’s teacher who reveal truth its all a lie from his sifu own mouth. This video show use harsh word but also show what is problem for Lin contradict his teacher now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGe1Ypn3n8I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

How to defend against whatcannot be defend? Only ignore it hoping people forget over time I guess. If honest mistake in research very easay to fix, just to confess truth. If not easy fix then what is that say?

Lin’s two teachers don’t add up to support Lin’s Black Flag story Sergio research find out Master Tio never learn or teach Wing Chun n I found Chung Che Man is from Ip Man ‘Vikoga’ Wing Chun none of those guy ever say anything about Black Flag. Lin sihing say that Lin only spend about 10 month with Master Tio learning Saam Chien & 18 Luohan hands at that time Lin only just a kid age. No Wing Chun there just few only 4 form not all 44 of 18 luohan hands. Is that reason Lin going online to find more kung fu video & photos? I think so. Other website found his posts from other sites before Lin delete all those things.

Lin’s make up story of 5 Wing Chun Flag from Shoalin also not check out. You can see on WCPedia the fake story Lin trying to spread into the world he is one copyright on bottom of page too.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory

His kung fu background expose now contradict his story today & 5 Wing Chun Flag story also incorrect. Red Boat is not Red Flag Ip Man is not red Flag there is no such thing as Red Flag or Black any color flag Wing Chun.

LoneTiger108

05-17-2013, 04:51 AM

http://youtu.be/IZ_eb-eHzAU

dante-s

05-20-2013, 10:38 AM

I copy this from FB some incredible blackmail going on with Kenneth Lin Scandal. Insider info come out this weekend. This is most unbelievable character and toxic to martial arts.

I have read more about this Black Flag Wing Chun stuff online I can tell you I am very shocked to see the story that has been made up. Concerning this so called 5 flags Shaolin nonsense, I ask myself “if my Sitaigung Ip Man were alive today what would he have to say about it?” How would he react I think he would turn over in his grave! I think he would literally kick this Lim/Salim’s ass, and my Sigung Ip Chun actually calls this Meng guy “a CRAZY boy doing stupid things who lost his sense of dignity.” Sigung Ip Chun does not support the Ving Tsun Museum, and he even told me of the time Benny's teacher Moy Yat had his stone carved Kuen Kuit chops physically removed from the VTM in Ohio. I think that says a lot.

I write to share some information with you PV-WT. Tho I recently join the FB site, I have been in contact with one of Kenneth Lim/Salim’s sihing when I visited Indonesia. He shared with me a lot of inside information but he wishes to stay anonymous. So I must respect that. He trained under Sifu Tio Te Kwie along w/about ten other guys. Kenneth Lim was also one of them. They criticized Lim that he was only there for less than year training just “here and there” he told me. They all said he didn’t have much skill but now Lim/Salim calls himself a grandmaster! How can less than one yr training in 18 Lohan mix with Chung Che Man’s Ving Tsun style get him to grandmaster level? That defy all logic.

Anyway his sihing who told me many things about Lim. This fraud used their HKB Lohan to create his own thing and become somebody big like David Copperfield. When Lim/Salim was posting in the Indonesia forums online, he use the name Saam Chien, I know because I was there online too. Lim/Salim was searching a lot for more things to learn for his gung fu. Video, photo, you name it. It is ironic he told people online he is from Sifu Tio but also criticized his Sifu Tio telling people Tio has very limited knowledge. Does that make any sense to you? Lim’s sihing was set off and visibly angry after he read about all of Lim’s activity and lies. I could see he was real when he told me these things.

He told me how Lin would fantasize about becoming like Benny Meng after seeing Meng in a magazine. Lim wanted to show off his ego like Meng. He idolized him and studied and copied everything from Meng’s video collections! That is really a laughing joke and one messed up story but true. What is more ironic is Lim/Salim made Benny Meng HIS student! Lim came up with plan to make a lot of $$$ and to send back $ to the HKB group, but that never happened. Lim just lied to them. Instead he sees Lim intentionally marked Benny Meng as his target from the start. Now that he has seen Lim’s dirty work was that Lim made up the 5 Flag story and coached his Sifu Tio into helping to sell the story to VTM. Sifu Tio originally agreed in order to help Lim be successful. Lim/Salim sought to deceive Meng from the very start. This was Lim’s original plan.

In order to convince Benny Meng and Sergio Ialadora about Black Flag, Kenneth Lim flew to Indonesia a few days before Meng and Sergio arrived. He showed one of the elders his version of Siu Lin Tau so that the elder can demo it in front of BM and SI. This was how Lim planned to trick them! Then after they saw the old man demo the form, Lim went to another room and Sergio asked the man about Chum Kiu. The old man was a bit confused but pulled out a paper and told Sergio that Lim asked him to do Siu Lin Tau. We know that created doubt in Sergio mind. All a part of Lim’s deception to trick Meng and Sergio, but Sergio did not buy into it like Meng did. I found out Sergio went back with a few of his students to Indonesia in secret for a second time to find out the truth! Sergio asked about all the public attacks and backlash against Black Flag and Tio. Sifu Tio realized he made a mistake against the gung fu community and told Sergio the truth. Sifu Tio felt it was only right to tell the truth after seeing how the community reacted. You posted the video on your page too.

Lim/Salim’s sihing then told me most bothersome story even I am disgusted by this. That the teacher has two children that went to America illegally a son and daughter if I remember right. And the son was going to go to visit Meng directly and tell him the truth about what is behind Black Flag. Well Lim found out the son’s plan and became so frightened he threatened the son telling him if he dare go to speak with Meng he will tell immigration about him and have him deported! That part is so shocking and shameful! This Lim guy have no ethics and no morals.

After Sifu Tio issued the public apology video, Lim totally disrespected Tio and threatened him too all after Tio was trying to help him. Lim’s sihing is totally disgusted by Kenneth Lim/Salim and his lies. I thought this was just a simple meeting with Lim’s sihing on my last vacation. Instead it’s the most shocking story what I personally found out about this character Kenneth Lim from the source. Yes, all this public information regarding to the false history of five flag Ving Tsun was intentionally made up by one man to deceive the whole martial arts community for the purpose of cheating gullible students for their money. It’s a shameful act! Kenneth Lim shows no respect to the martial art community and insults everyone intelligence. Thumbs down to this cheater Lim. People might say “who cares, this dude Lin just want to make $ and be happy.” Surely it’s getting better pay than when Lim used to working in McDonald’s flipping burgers, but what’s really the story here? Now, Lin’s sihing told me about Lin’s original plan. Kenneth Lim is a scandalous joke, a fake, the number one liar, liar to 18 Lohan Hands and HKB, liar to the Ving Tsun community, for his fantasy to become like Benny Meng a fake gung fu master on some stupid MA magazine and a low life gold digger.

You have many things on your site about Lim’s Black Flag evil scandal. So I reach out to you to help share the message from HKB in Indonesia. This seem like the right place thank you. Please share with your friends.

Raymond You can find it and more things from here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Planet-Ving-Wing-Tsun/255251561276573

kentchang

05-27-2013, 07:20 PM

Where is Chung Che Man?

kentchang

05-31-2013, 04:15 PM

This report is essentially interesting.

I have read more about this Black Flag Wing Chun stuff online I can tell you I am very shocked to see the story that has been made up. Concerning this so called 5 flags Shaolin nonsense, I ask myself “if my Sitaigung Ip Man were alive today what would he have to say about it?” How would he react I think he would turn over in his grave! I think he would literally kick this Lim/Salim’s ass, and my Sigung Ip Chun actually calls this Meng guy “a CRAZY boy doing stupid things who lost his sense of dignity.” Sigung Ip Chun does not support the Ving Tsun Museum, and he even told me of the time Benny's teacher Moy Yat had his stone carved Kuen Kuit chops physically removed from the VTM in Ohio. I think that says a lot.

I write to share some information with you PV-WT. Tho I recently join the FB site, I have been in contact with one of Kenneth Lim/Salim’s sihing when I visited Indonesia. He shared with me a lot of inside information but he wishes to stay anonymous. So I must respect that. He trained under Sifu Tio Te Kwie along w/about ten other guys. Kenneth Lim was also one of them. They criticized Lim that he was only there for less than year training just “here and there” he told me. They all said he didn’t have much skill but now Lim/Salim calls himself a grandmaster! How can less than one yr training in 18 Lohan mix with Chung Che Man’s Ving Tsun style get him to grandmaster level? That defy all logic.

Anyway his sihing who told me many things about Lim. This fraud used their HKB Lohan to create his own thing and become somebody big like David Copperfield. When Lim/Salim was posting in the Indonesia forums online, he use the name Saam Chien, I know because I was there online too. Lim/Salim was searching a lot for more things to learn for his gung fu. Video, photo, you name it. It is ironic he told people online he is from Sifu Tio but also criticized his Sifu Tio telling people Tio has very limited knowledge. Does that make any sense to you? Lim’s sihing was set off and visibly angry after he read about all of Lim’s activity and lies. I could see he was real when he told me these things.

He told me how Lin would fantasize about becoming like Benny Meng after seeing Meng in a magazine. Lim wanted to show off his ego like Meng. He idolized him and studied and copied everything from Meng’s video collections! That is really a laughing joke and one messed up story but true. What is more ironic is Lim/Salim made Benny Meng HIS student! Lim came up with plan to make a lot of $$$ and to send back $ to the HKB group, but that never happened. Lim just lied to them. Instead he sees Lim intentionally marked Benny Meng as his target from the start. Now that he has seen Lim’s dirty work was that Lim made up the 5 Flag story and coached his Sifu Tio into helping to sell the story to VTM. Sifu Tio originally agreed in order to help Lim be successful. Lim/Salim sought to deceive Meng from the very start. This was Lim’s original plan.

In order to convince Benny Meng and Sergio Ialadora about Black Flag, Kenneth Lim flew to Indonesia a few days before Meng and Sergio arrived. He showed one of the elders his version of Siu Lin Tau so that the elder can demo it in front of BM and SI. This was how Lim planned to trick them! Then after they saw the old man demo the form, Lim went to another room and Sergio asked the man about Chum Kiu. The old man was a bit confused but pulled out a paper and told Sergio that Lim asked him to do Siu Lin Tau. We know that created doubt in Sergio mind. All a part of Lim’s deception to trick Meng and Sergio, but Sergio did not buy into it like Meng did. I found out Sergio went back with a few of his students to Indonesia in secret for a second time to find out the truth! Sergio asked about all the public attacks and backlash against Black Flag and Tio. Sifu Tio realized he made a mistake against the gung fu community and told Sergio the truth. Sifu Tio felt it was only right to tell the truth after seeing how the community reacted. You posted the video on your page too.

Lim/Salim’s sihing then told me most bothersome story even I am disgusted by this. That the teacher has two children that went to America illegally a son and daughter if I remember right. And the son was going to go to visit Meng directly and tell him the truth about what is behind Black Flag. Well Lim found out the son’s plan and became so frightened he threatened the son telling him if he dare go to speak with Meng he will tell immigration about him and have him deported! That part is so shocking and shameful! This Lim guy have no ethics and no morals.

After Sifu Tio issued the public apology video, Lim totally disrespected Tio and threatened him too all after Tio was trying to help him. Lim’s sihing is totally disgusted by Kenneth Lim/Salim and his lies. I thought this was just a simple meeting with Lim’s sihing on my last vacation. Instead it’s the most shocking story what I personally found out about this character Kenneth Lim from the source. Yes, all this public information regarding to the false history of five flag Ving Tsun was intentionally made up by one man to deceive the whole martial arts community for the purpose of cheating gullible students for their money. It’s a shameful act! Kenneth Lim shows no respect to the martial art community and insults everyone intelligence. Thumbs down to this cheater Lim. People might say “who cares, this dude Lin just want to make $ and be happy.” Surely it’s getting better pay than when Lim used to working in McDonald’s flipping burgers, but what’s really the story here? Now, Lin’s sihing told me about Lin’s original plan. Kenneth Lim is a scandalous joke, a fake, the number one liar, liar to 18 Lohan Hands and HKB, liar to the Ving Tsun community, for his fantasy to become like Benny Meng a fake gung fu master on some stupid MA magazine and a low life gold digger.

You have many things on your site about Lim’s Black Flag evil scandal. So I reach out to you to help share the message from HKB in Indonesia. This seem like the right place thank you. Please share with your friends.

Raymond