If you had a student or your kung fu sibling

[Shaolin Dude]

was asked to do lion dance for chinese new year's and he said no, what would you do?

[SanHeChuan]

Nothing. :rolleyes:

that's like, Give me $10...

[Raipizo]

well couldn't you ask to do it instead if you were that interested besides it is his/her decision after all.

[TenTigers]

get rid of him. Any student that is too selfish to support his Sifu or Si-Hings will spread his attitude like a cancer throughout your school. It may seem trivial, but it is an attitude, and it will manifest on other levels in time.

[Taryn P.]

Before "getting rid of him", I think it might be useful to talk to him and determine why he didn't want to do it. There are a lot of possible reasons, some of which are not selfish.

[bawang]

hy
whats is important about lion dance? i relly dont know

[Yum Cha]

get rid of him. Any student that is too selfish to support his Sifu or Si-Hings will spread his attitude like a cancer throughout your school. It may seem trivial, but it is an attitude, and it will manifest on other levels in time.

Agreed....

[Violent Designs]

hy
whats is important about lion dance? i relly dont know

LOL same here.

perhaps, it is a Guangdong regional thing？

[Old Noob]

was asked to do lion dance for chinese new year's and he said no, what would you do?

I would remind myself, if I were the sifu of a school that is open to the public and accepts paying students, that this student is a customer who pays for a service your school provides to him and that, absent some kind of pre-existing agreement or understanding about the obligation of lion dancing, nothing should be done. Free world. You want all your students to lion dance, put it in the terms of the contract.

[lkfmdc]

"Hey, I know you're paying me already to learn here but would you mind taking a day away from your family with no compensation to work hard all day.

If you're lucky they might explode some firecrackers on you, hurt your ears, cause a respiratory breakdown and the best part is that a gang fight might break out if we cross another lion so be sure to bring some weapons

hey, wait! come back! come back!"

[RonH]

I've never done a lion dance before. If I was asked to, I'd say no because I have no interest in ever doing it. There shouldn't be any kind of reprecussions. It's like asking your neighbor 'do you want to help me fix my car?'

[sean_stonehart]

"Hey, I know you're paying me already to learn here but would you mind taking a day away from your family with no compensation to work hard all day.

If you're lucky they might explode some firecrackers on you, hurt your ears, cause a respiratory breakdown and the best part is that a gang fight might break out if we cross another lion so be sure to bring some weapons

hey, wait! come back! come back!"

Where's the problem? Sounds like the good ol' days to me... :D:eek:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I would remind myself, if I were the sifu of a school that is open to the public and accepts paying students, that this student is a customer who pays for a service your school provides to him and that, absent some kind of pre-existing agreement or understanding about the obligation of lion dancing, nothing should be done. Free world. You want all your students to lion dance, put it in the terms of the contract.

I agree completely.

It's this 'old school' mentality that some of you have that keep you in the past. If you want to create compelling futures for yourselves, have the courage to leave the past where it belongs.....in the past.

Or, cut your students off because they decide not to play any 'lion dance games.'

You guys are silly. Are you a lion dance school? Did you agree before hand that you would require this of your students? Are you insulted because it's a tradition that YOU care about and they don't? Gimme a break you guys...

[sean_stonehart]

My sifu just paid us to dance out the money he received. If you danced, you got paid. If not...

This was on top of the food & drink he bought for us out of his pocket.

[David Jamieson]

No big deal.

Find someone else to do the dance if you wanna dance.

[Taryn P.]

Personally, I do not wish to put on performances. My reasons for training do not include performing for others- and besides which, I have stage fright.

If it were part of a religious ritual/observance of some sort, I might agree to to do it. That's a somewhat different role from that of an entertainer, or of showing off in order to try to draw in new students. Also, if it seemed like something that was ***really*** important to my teacher, I might agree to do it out of respect for him/her. But I wouldn't be happy about it. (When I studied ballet, I skipped the recitals, too).

Another reason this hypothetical person might be balking is that he isn't confident about his competance at the task.

[Pork Chop]

Where's the problem? Sounds like the good ol' days to me... :D:eek:

tru dat
man, i really miss it sometimes....

on a side note, okinawan eisa drumming has a very similar vibe - without the whole lion rivalry thing tho.

[TenTigers]

there are other ways a student can help if they have performance anxieties. They can help with the door when the Lion enters and leaves, they can do fireworks, they can be a "runner," which is someone who can communicate to the lions in case of a problem.

We are open to the public, but the "service" we provide is a Traditional School, with all the "trappings,"* excellent instruction, personal attention to our students, exciting, motivating classes, and sweat.

* We've gone there before, you don't have to agree with me. I'm sure McDonalds jeers at Burger King for his insistance on flame broiling his burgers. People who want it their way, will go to one place, and people who are looking for something else will go to the other.

[taai gihk yahn]

just bearing in mind that, while for the Chinese, the whole kung-fu school as familial relation thing was a highly functional construct in context of the culture: it demarcated and solidified relationships that were important for little things like livelihood and survival; as such, doing Lion Dancing was a way of enforcing those bonds, not to mention an important source of income: do you think that rival schools got into fights because one thought that the other's lion was prettier?

to superimpose that mentality onto modern-day US culture is silly: Mike, Dave and myself know exactly what that means, vis-a-vis the looks of complete befuddlement on the faces of the suburbanites who accompanied us on our first (and LAST) Chinatown Lion Dance debacle (~'92?), when we had a little "issue" with one of the local "youth enrichment associations", all because of the BS mentality surrounding the whole affair;

personally, if you want to involve your students in an activity that has nothing to do with why they signed up at your school in the first place, you may need to rethink some priorities, especially if it's an activity that could put them at risk; of course, if LD is advertised and if a student's involvement is part of the curriculum, that's cool, as long as they know that before they sign up

[KC Elbows]

Second Old Noob.

One has to consider, when coming from a culture that has more Confucian influenced observance of special occasions, and teaching in a culture that does not share the same, some negotiation is required on both sides. Students do not necessarily come with a knowledge of what, in China, is considered good manners, just as some manners here would be unknown to some newcomers.

Simply imposing Confucian requirements, and drawing Confucian conclusions, when most of the people involved do not share that influence, ends badly. Not just because of the number of disagreements that occur, but because, unlike China, here, when a teacher takes their orthodoxy too far, there is not as strong a chance that friends will intercede and say "Sir, you're being unreasonable".

IF a kung fu teacher is going to enforce Confucian mores on non-Confucians, he must have the knowledge of it to teach it, if that's his choice.

The list of reading required to do this fairly is daunting, but it is unfair to impose a culture on others that one has only a common citizen's knowledge of. People in imperial China spent whole lifetimes studying this topic just to get the chance to get a job, often never really succeeding.

I know of a few scholars, Chinese academics whose area of expertise is Confucianism. One actually is largely Confucian in view. He lives a life of much greater pressure from fulfilling his ideals than any kung fu teacher in America, because in China, if you screw up, everyone around you knows everything. In a kung fu school here, you often have a Chinese teacher who goes out with his or her students, but otherwise is surrounded by other Chinese, who often have little contact with those students, so you get teachers enforcing, but not capable of adequately explaining, Confucian mores, to non-Confucians, who have rarely been asked whether they wish to live in a Confucian way, who don't know that the way the Chinese seem to deal with this is everybody gets to know everything, and the people who most capable of interceding, other Chinese, often don't know anything about it.

[TenTigers]

I understand the issues with opposing teams in Chinatown. (I also was involved in a few dabacles which almost escalated into all out war-ah,,the good ol days)Normally, that does not occur these days, as they now assign specific routes as well as an officer to each team. Nowadays, if one guy refuses passage to another team, the fur no longer flies, they revoke their permits and send them home.
It is always made clear to students applying for membership that Lion Dance is part of the curriculum, and that participation-in any way they feel comfortable, so long as they contribute, (heck, they can hand out lai-see fung to the diners) is mandatory.

[KC Elbows]

Ten Tigers, I respect a sifu's desire to have a traditional school, what I'm getting at is the danger of assuming one can have one outside of the culture of origin and still have all the trappings: it is not possible. The social pressure of the traditional culture does not exist in the sifus interactions with people from a culture with no Confucian influence, and so the sifu is often shielded from losing face for things he should lose face for because there's often few other Chinese around him or her who are aware of the issues, and those who are are often other teachers and other Chinese who, as immigrants, may not have the option of cutting ties with the sifu.

This is entirely not the same as a similar sort of school in China, and never can be.

Negotiation is a given, whether one wishes to believe they are negotiating the process or not. These mores were never more than a negotiation, and so, in a completely different culture, they will be more so.

edit: Mandatory participation is a business owner's prerogative. What I take offense to is an earlier poster's defining the student's role, a student as "a cancer". I'm highly respectful of Chinese culture, people who want to step on mine better not have any cultural egg on their faces, and, in the topic of Confucianism, well, there have been some issues historically. We Americans are a bit more lackadaisical about rites, it is part of our culture, and sometimes a good part.

[lkfmdc]

to superimpose that mentality onto modern-day US culture is silly: Mike, Dave and myself know exactly what that means, vis-a-vis the looks of complete befuddlement on the faces of the suburbanites who accompanied us on our first (and LAST) Chinatown Lion Dance debacle (~'92?), when we had a little "issue" with one of the local "youth enrichment associations", all because of the BS mentality surrounding the whole affair;



Prior to that debacle I had lion danced with Sifu Yip and had done it a few years with White Crane under CTS... I was already completely done with it by then....

PLEASE realize that we aren't Chinese , a school is a VOLUNTARY organization and it is not a "youth enrichment association"...

[TenTigers]

let me also add, when we perform a Lion Dance, students get a share of the tips, and there is always a festive dinner afterwards-my treat. I always make it as enjoyable as possible, and it becomes a method of bonding between hing-dai. For us, it's a party.

[KC Elbows]

The problem is, many people have barely enough time to train kungfu. They go to a school to train kung fu, then, lo and behold, if they don't treat it as a social club, they're gonna have problems. But, if they do, they either have less time to train, or have to take time from elsewhere. From where? Family? Work?

[BoulderDawg]

It is always made clear to students applying for membership that Lion Dance is part of the curriculum, and that participation-in any way they feel comfortable, so long as they contribute, (heck, they can hand out lai-see fung to the diners) is mandatory.

Mandatory? What do you do if someone says "No'?

MA is just a small part of my life. If I had another activity planned (or if I just didn't want to do it) then that's my choice.

I assume you tell your students before they sign up that if they miss certain classes or events they will be booted from the program>

[TenTigers]

our school's atmosphere and what we provide, is one of the things that sets us apart from most other schools, and it is that little niche that we have carved out for ourselves. Also, a large percentage of our school is Chinese, and they come to this school for this very reason.

[bawang]

i guess lion dance is a southern thing
wel if u really wanna keep all the traditions whay not build a square platfarm and ask pepple to come up to fight u, why pick and choose the traditions, right

[KC Elbows]

let me also add, when we perform a Lion Dance, students get a share of the tips, and there is always a festive dinner afterwards. I always make it as enjoyable as possible, and it becomes a method of bonding between hing-dai. For us, it's a party.

It sounds like you run a friendly event. But, I would be a cancer by your definition. I have no spare time. None. When law school starts, less, especially as I may need to work full time while doing it. This leaves time for kung fu, time for my wife, and that's about it. No Chinese New Year, rarely any sort of vacation.

Yet, in China, I was not looking to study kung fu, but ended up studying free because teachers liked me and considered me talented, a very fast learner, and already in possession of decent kungfu, and utterly dedicated to understanding methods. I'm approaching equal in kung fu skill(granted, he knows other martial arts that I do not, speaking of our core style) to my teacher here, which is his least requirement for feeling like teaching was worth it. Teachers like to teach me, but the ones with sufficient experience to be my teacher, all seem to recognize that the Confucian paradigm says that I'm too old to be viewed as even a figurative son, and this requires different manners than other situations. You cannot compel someone my age with my schedule without suggesting that I let down others who are closer to family to me. Likewise, students have relations closer to them that may have more important requirements, and, in the case stated above, there may have been no explicit "my school requires mandatory lion dancing", in which case the student is not at fault at all, much less a cancer.

[TenTigers]

MA is just a small part of my life. If I had another activity planned (or if I just didn't want to do it) then that's my choice.

yes, it is entirely your choice. But, it is also your choice to decide whether or not to join, yes? This is the same thing whether you are taking Kung-Fu, painting, guitar or motorcycle lessons. You find a place with the curriculum, and atmosphere you enjoy. If you don't like it, you simply go to another place that suits your needs.
I studied painting and graphic design at SVA. I chose it over Parsons, Pratt, FIT, and others due to it's atmosphere, it's teachers, and the intensity of its training.
(if you missed a deadline, you failed the class) But, it was what I wanted in an Art school.

[taai gihk yahn]

I understand the issues with opposing teams in Chinatown. (I also was involved in a few dabacles which almost escalated into all out war-ah,,the good ol days)Normally, that does not occur these days, as they now assign specific routes as well as an officer to each team. Nowadays, if one guy refuses passage to another team, the fur no longer flies, they revoke their permits and send them home.
obviously doing LD at local malls, restaurants, schools etc. does not incur the kind of risk a full-fledged C-town episode would (heck, in your neighborhood, it's probably worse just walking down the street w/the wrong color shirt on; BTW, did you hear about the recent gang-related stabbing at Hunt. HS? I missed walking right into the middle of it by literally 30 seconds, LOL - but I did get to see the custodian mopping up the blood...); personally, I think that, as a cultural artifact, LD is great, and many public / private schools have it as part of a Chinese New Years cultural unit;


It is always made clear to students applying for membership that Lion Dance is part of the curriculum, and that participation-in any way they feel comfortable, so long as they contribute, (heck, they can hand out lai-see fung to the diners) is mandatory.
as long as that is put out up front, then that's obviously cool; personally, I think it still should be purely voluntary, but if one is looking for a more "traditional" school, one would probably feel inclined to go along with it as a requirement anyway

[KC Elbows]

Also, a large percentage of our school is Chinese, and they come to this school for this very reason.

Exactly why it works, you do have the necessary ingredients.

But, the poster above, whose student you called cancer, is his situation at all the same? Maybe you are not aware of this, but there are some Chinese sifus who enforce Confucianism on everyone but themselves, because they conveniently don't teach Chinese people(or Chinese people don't train with them), and so the people who those sifus respect never hear the truth about them. Also, there are some trying to run traditional schools without realizing that the student base being from a different culture makes the tradition impossible to achieve without negotiation, which can cause much annoyance for teacher and student alike until equilibrium is met.

[KC Elbows]

as long as that is put out up front, then that's obviously cool; personally, I think it still should be purely voluntary,

Keep in mind, if his students are mostly Chinese, in the case of a Chinese New Year's deal, their family is probably going to see them. They are providing a taste of home for a lot of people, so there's a whole different level of motivation to do it and experience in doing it.

[TenTigers]

KC, I understand your situation. Students contribute in many ways to the school. Some who cannot Lion Dance, contribute in other ways. Some students contribute by setting an example, or by helping in other ways. Their presence is always felt and appreciated, and their time constraints or other limitations are understood.
I mean, let's not get crazy about it.
I was referring to people who are selfish,spoiled and self-centered. We've all met them, and we all know how their presence is felt in the school.
It's not really an issue, as those types usually weed themselves out naturally.

[TenTigers]

obviously doing LD at local malls, restaurants, schools etc. does not incur the kind of risk a full-fledged C-town episode would (
Are you kidding? We almost got killed in an altercation between Gap Kids and OshKosh B'Gosh. There were diapers flying all over the place.
Then the bigger kids with the pullups walked in and leveled the place.
It was a milkbath.

[Old Noob]

Exactly why it works, you do have the necessary ingredients.

But, the poster above, whose student you called cancer, is his situation at all the same? Maybe you are not aware of this, but there are some Chinese sifus who enforce Confucianism on everyone but themselves, because they conveniently don't teach Chinese people(or Chinese people don't train with them), and so the people who those sifus respect never hear the truth about them. Also, there are some trying to run traditional schools without realizing that the student base being from a different culture makes the tradition impossible to achieve without negotiation, which can cause much annoyance for teacher and student alike until equilibrium is met.

I think Elbow's comments have been right on. When I made my post, I didn't really understand that this mindset was Confucian but reading his comments have provided some context.

We don't do lion dancing at my school but my Sifu definitely preaches giving back to the school. Still, he never requires it as a condition of receiving that for which we have paid. Rather, he sets such a good example by volunteering in the community and by giving time to his students that we don't pay for (he says he won't do make-up tests and has a private lesson fee but almost always gives extra time to students outside of class without the charges). Consequently, when he asks us to do a demonstration or to come to a seminar, I go if it's at all possible. Though not technically Confucian, he's appealed to the more modern values of leading by example and by doing good turns to us. That makes us want to return the favor. The fact that he's so earnestly interested in his art gives his students a feeling that they're getting value over what they are paying also helps.

If any of this makes sense...

[TenTigers]

makes perfect sense. That is what I try to accomplish in my own school. I am always giving time to students who need it, and I do alot of community service.(and will continue to do so even after my probation is up! :D) I try to set the example for my students. You sure you're not in my school? LOL

[lkfmdc]

this isn't China, most of us aren't Chinese and a lot of the Chinese are AMERICAN Chinese....

this reminds me of being told I couldn't go to a tournament because I belong to a federation. I remember saying "I never joined this federation" and being told I had to because it was a requirement of all kung fu schools in the area :rolleyes:

Then I was supposed to pay a fine, because as a member of a federation I had no choice in joining, I had to listen to decisions I had no part in making :rolleyes:

I told them NO and they seemed confused :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Are you kidding? We almost got killed in an altercation between Gap Kids and OshKosh B'Gosh. There were diapers flying all over the place.
Then the bigger kids with the pullups walked in and leveled the place.
It was a milkbath.

LOL; of course, if you do go to the Westfield mall, and you have a colored bandanna hanging out of your rear pocket, well...

[David Jamieson]

LOL; of course, if you do go to the Westfield mall, and you have a colored bandanna hanging out of your rear pocket, well...

Why am I getting pictures of Al Pacino in Cruising flashing in my mind? lol

[TenTigers]

Why am I getting pictures of Al Pacino in Cruising flashing in my mind? lol
funny "Cruising," story; when this movie first came out, it was in the late 70's, and I was in art school in NYC. Since there were many people protesting it, and rumors that it would be banned, my friend and I had to go see it. The school "uniform" at that time (hip art school, punk rock era) was black leather jacket,black t-shirt and jeans and black construction/loggers boots, Doc Martins,Army boots, etc. Little did we realize, that it was the identical "uniform" of the leather s&m crowd depicted in the movie! When the film ended and the lights came on, there we were, sitting together, getting looks, stares, giggles, and whispers from the people as they left-dispite our macho "harumph-uh, yeah. How bout them Yankees?" convo.
We promptly left.:eek:

[Yum Cha]

We are not a commercial school. We are also one of the few schools privileged to have an opportunity to dance in Sydney Chinatown at festival time. Lion dancing makes a bit of cash for the Sifu, and that flows to the club in meals, uniforms, etc.

It also provides an important bonding exercise, and a significant social activity.

But most importantly, our lion dancing presents the school and the master to the Chinese community in a good light, with all the respect and face that that involves.

We are a traditional school, and we follow the traditions. Students are informed up front that this is a required activity, and it is one of the things that binds us together.

To each their own, but this is our way.

[Violent Designs]

i guess lion dance is a southern thing
wel if u really wanna keep all the traditions whay not build a square platfarm and ask pepple to come up to fight u, why pick and choose the traditions, right

lion dances up north were perform by people that just learn to . . . lion dance, they were not martial artists.

As far as I know anyway.

[WinterPalm]

Lion Dance is fun...but if someone doesn't want to do it, ask someone else...there, end of story.
And why is it that so many Kung Fu schools can't even teach you to fight properly, or turn out good fighters, but yet expect you to dedicate your time to dancing at a banquet? I think most people are of the opinion that they joined the school to learn martial arts, not to dance...and if you want to, that's fine, but it's not for everybody and the focus should never waver from the fact that it is martial arts, and if the focus has shifted, it should return to applicable realistic fighting skills.