Training!... for teh str33t!

[AdrianK]

I was checking out a JKD school the other day and listening to one of their students go on and on and on and on about how they don't train for competition, they train specifically for the deadly streets.

Yet the school lacked any mock guns, multiple opponent scenarios, anyone with solid knowledge on the legalities of street fighting (you can't exactly kill someone on the street and expect to get away with "self defense"), any ideas on how to defuse a confrontational situation, or even sparring(I was told it was only for the advanced class).

So if you're training for the street, what do you personally do, to prepare yourself or your students?

I mean, if I personally got into a street fight, I'd try and end it as quickly as possible and get out of there before the cops come. But I think thats a horrible and unrealistic lesson to pass onto your students that can potentially get them into more trouble.

Does anyone have any real legitimate knowledge on the legal consequences of fighting? Or is it just second hand knowledge?

[TenTigers]

maybe they all wore running shoes...

[taai gihk yahn]

they could not possibly be have been teaching t3h d3dly, because only I know t3h d3dly...

[AdrianK]

I know, right?

[Lee Chiang Po]

The problem with most schools like that is that they have students coming in all the time and everyone seems to be at different levels of training and skill. If a person is training for self defense he or she must train a small number of effective techniques until they are very proficient with them, as well as entry and bridge techniques. Then they can be applied to different scenarios. Gun, knife, club, whatever. Most of these schools start out by teaching you a full self defense move and expect you to train that efficiently. Most people would do better to stay at home or away from places where they could run into trouble.
Self defense moves require one to be committed completely. If you attempt to disarm someone with a weapon you have to be so committed that you will follow through to the end and give it everything you have. You must be able to apply deadly force if you are capible of such. A person with such a weapon is also prepared to harm you if it becomes necessary. And self defense might also be applied in other ways. An example of this was back in the lat 60's in New Orleans. A man that had been robbing Fill A Sack stores and shooting the clerks entered a store one night and robbed it. He then ordered everyone in the store to go into the cold room. This ment that he intended to shoot them there. One of the customers reached and grabbed a can of English Peas and threw it at the man. It struck him in the temple area and killed him stone dead. That was effective self defense.
However, one does not need a complete fighting system in order to provide self defense. Like in the Army, you would be taught a few good techniques that could save your life. You practice these techniques well and they will serve you well.

[AdrianK]

I think its important to know how to apply deadly force... but in modern day society, applying deadly force can mean going to prison, especially if you don't have an understanding of the laws in your country, or if you don't have any plan on how you would deal with the consequences.

I'd say fights with someone who isn't legitimately trying to take your life are a lot more common than actual self-defense scenarios where someone is trying to murder you - But, that also depends on where you live. I've personally never had anyone try to rob or kill me in southern california, but on the other hand I was followed by some suspicious looking folk while walking down the vegas strip... in broad daylight.

But anyways, on another note, if anyone has ever heard of the boxer Michael Katsidis, the poor guy received a TWO YEAR sentance in a high security prison for breaking someones jaw in a self defense situation. :|

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I think a street defense course should give the student tools which they can employ immediately upon leaving the very 1st class. Stuff like

Lesson 1 - heightening awareness

Lesson 2 - picking safe routes to travel (avoiding dark alleyways and darkened alcoves, making wide berths past and around corners, groups, etc.)

Lesson 3 - Dress for success (avoiding clothes that restrict movement, etc.)

Lesson 4 - Employing respect and politeness, and assertiveness

Lesson 5 - Employing subtrefuge (carrying a fake wallet w/ you, claiming you have AIDS, etc.)

Lesson 6 - The Sucker Punch Attack and Escape (vs. one or multiple opponents)

From then on, it's details and refinement along those lines, with the inclusion of

responding to an attack and escaping

Combat

[bakxierboxer]

But anyways, on another note, if anyone has ever heard of the boxer Michael Katsidis, the poor guy received a TWO YEAR sentance in a high security prison for breaking someones jaw in a self defense situation. :|


The main problem in that case could well have been the fact that he was a boxer.... and a pro, at that?
That said, I see nothing about jail time on the following page:

http://www.answers.com/
main/ntquery?s=Michael%20Katsidis&gwp=16

[AdrianK]

The main problem in that case could well have been the fact that he was a boxer.... and a pro, at that?
That said, I see nothing about jail time on the following page:

http://www.answers.com/
main/ntquery?s=Michael%20Katsidis&gwp=16

It could have been that because he was a professional, he was held to that higher standard.

At the same time, its a harsh sentence for not even coming close to killing the guy. But the justice system is littered with things similar to that in both criminal and civil cases. Seriously injure someone and without a proper legal defense and understanding of what to say to the police and how to state your side of the story, and you could not only be looking at jail time but also giving up a significant amount of money and assets.

The page you gave is exactly like the wikipedia page on him, which doesn't have any information on his jail time. However, HBO has mentioned it during his fights and there's several pages you can find online about it, like this one: http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php?title=Michael_Katsidis&redirect=no

[TenTigers]

Being a proffessional or trained artial Artist can work for you or against you, depending on circumstance and if you have a good lawyer. I have heard of a case where the MAist was innocent, due to his training and experience, in that he was capable of recognizing a threat of physical violence, and acted accordingly.

[wetwonder]

From a legal perspective, saying it was self-defense to justify injuring another person only works if your use of force was excusable. Excusability is where (1) you injure someone by force during a physical altercation, (2) you were not the aggressor, (3) you couldn't walk away from the altercation w/o using force to escape, and (4) you used no greater force than was being threatened against you.

Element (3) can be tricky b/c that's where ego gets people into trouble. Most assault convictions from fights could have been avoided if the offender walked away from the scuffle instead of hitting back. If it's a felony level conviction, some rights go away, like 2nd amend right to own a gun. So it's pretty important.

Element (4), the "force threatened against you," is a tricky one to understand. The test for it is what a reasonable person would see as a threat. So if someone half your size, and apparently unskilled, punched you in the chest, it would not be exusable to haul off a tiger claw palm to his sternum and fracture it. In that case, the "reasonable person" would probably find that your force was excessive, considering the threat against you.

The best way to ensure not getting convicted for assault is to walk away - if you have access to walk away and can do so without real risk of being harmed. Of course, that's not always possible.

[Jimbo]

Back in the late '70s, Hee Il Cho, a L.A.-area TKD instructor, defended himself from an man who walked into his school and reportedly walked up to the bag during class and started hitting it. He was asked to please sit down and watch quietly, but apparently wanted to fight. As Cho's brother was about to escort him out, the guy attacked Cho, who said he responded with a spin back kick and two punches, which put the guy down. Later the guy returned with the police and eventually sued Cho and won. The courts had ruled that although he had acted in self-defense, Cho, due to his level of training compared to his attacker, was a legal weapon.

It's weird that the courts apparently expected Cho (any anybody else) to know the level of training or not of any potential attacker, and that one should only physically defend himself if the attacker's level of training is at an equal level to his, as if it should be some type of fair contest.
Jim

[diego]

Back in the late '70s, Hee Il Cho, a L.A.-area TKD instructor, defended himself from an man who walked into his school and reportedly walked up to the bag during class and started hitting it. He was asked to please sit down and watch quietly, but apparently wanted to fight. As Cho's brother was about to escort him out, the guy attacked Cho, who said he responded with a spin back kick and two punches, which put the guy down. Later the guy returned with the police and eventually sued Cho and won. The courts had ruled that although he had acted in self-defense, Cho, due to his level of training compared to his attacker, was a legal weapon.

It's weird that the courts apparently expected Cho (any anybody else) to know the level of training or not of any potential attacker, and that one should only physically defend himself if the attacker's level of training is at an equal level to his, as if it should be some type of fair contest.
Jim
which is hilarious...I remember hearing that when you're a Legal Weapon you have to tell the guy "Stop, I have a Black Belt" so you can give him the required time to pull out his weapon to make the fight seem more fair...