Chi Sao

[Katsu Jin Ken]

my sifu and i were discussing chi sao the other day an i'd like to get your take on it. We see chi sau as having mostly 1 range "grappling" range. Its clinch work already close to the opponent. Its not the outside range, where your jab/ thai kicks range, to us chi sao is most useful for that touch sensitivity when youve already gotten in. I dont see chi sau as a bridge to get inside your already there if your close enough to touch. We also do JJ throws and sweeps from chi sao. Anyone else do that type of stuff?

that make sense? what do you all think?

[anerlich]

We see chi sau as having mostly 1 range "grappling" range.

I see grappling range as closer than chi sao range. Pummelling is a more appropriate drill at grappling range. You can't chi sao from over/underhooks or a wrestler's tie up, unless your definition of chi sao is rather more flexible than mine.


We also do JJ throws and sweeps from chi sao. Anyone else do that type of stuff?

Yes, but IMO good throws and takedowns rely on establishing good grips and/or controls, for which IMO there are better drilling platforms than chi sao.

[mjw]

If you are starting at roling hands chi sau yes it's close, at times we've started at wrist to wrist etc into chi sau which still isn't working on the outside bridge etc. Chi Sau itself with rolling only touched a few ranges but keep in mind Chi Sau is a drill and you won't fight like that in a real fight.
There will be disengagements etc.
As for using throws and sweeps etc. yes, and it is good to flow into whatever will help you conquer the given situation.

[LSWCTN1]

there are many elements to chi sau, but the way i learn it is:

aside from the obvious (developing sensitivity/'listening' skills) it is (for us) to develop the 'smothering' range to restrict the opponents movement. once mastered at close quarters the idea is that it can then be used at any distance to stile movemnt and create your own opening

i know i am probably stating the obvious, but thought i would add it anyway! :D

[Vajramusti]

Hi: i dont know your sifu and dont wish to argue with him/her through you. Chi sao is not just for one fixed range.Chi sao IMO is not just rolling-it can dove tail with work closer or further and help with closing. Good coordination including footwork.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

I see grappling range as closer than chi sao range. Pummelling is a more appropriate drill at grappling range. You can't chi sao from over/underhooks or a wrestler's tie up, unless your definition of chi sao is rather more flexible than mine.


I don't see "grappling" as a range but as something you are doing -- and for me that is maintaining a physical attachment to your opponent (typically toeither control or setup an opponent). Sometimes that attachment is very close, for example chest to chest which permits pummeling. At other times, that attachment is further away, for example with the plum tie in muay thai (too far to pummel) or with a 2-on-1/russian tie. And, at other times, as when attached to an opponent's limbs, you are even further away. For me, chi sao is grappling (whereyou are also striking) as it is maintaining an attachment with your opponent.



Yes, but IMO good throws and takedowns rely on establishing good grips and/or controls, for which IMO there are better drilling platforms than chi sao.

I agree with you. If you want to do judo-type throws, for example, you need to set them up like judoka do, with their grips, movement, etc. However, in my experience, WCK has it's own vairieties of fast throws/takedowns that work off of WCK movement (for example, the white crane seizes fox).

[Wu Wei Wu]

Chi Sao is a drill which is as valuable as you want to make it (no more valuable than other drills; hubud, pummeling...)

Use it to work footwork, positioning, structure... use it to control opponent and create positions from which to strike (dirty boxing)... use it to close gap and go in for tie ups (clinch/stand-up grappling)... It's not necessarily a 'range' thing but more like a 'contact' thing i.e. I have contact with opponent - now what can I do?

Suki

[anerlich]

Chi Sao is a drill which is as valuable as you want to make it (no more valuable than other drills; hubud, pummeling...)

I agree - however I think each drill may be more valuable than others for developing specific skills and/or qualities.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

yall know any drills?

we do: hubud, pummeling, chi sao, stone monkey, man sau drill, poon sau drill

yall know anymore?

[Pacman]

if you are doing chi sau without hooking your wrists (your whole arm should always look like an 'S' or a 'Z') then you are incapable of really sticking to your opponent.

in this case you are not doing chi sau you are simply exchanging at a close range.

this is one of the reasons why many unproperly trained people thing chi sau is useless or impractical

[Pacman]

look at these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD7nrNaOmZc

their center is wide open and they are not sticking. there are not giving each other any resistance.

[couch]

if you are doing chi sau without hooking your wrists (your whole arm should always look like an 'S' or a 'Z') then you are incapable of really sticking to your opponent.

in this case you are not doing chi sau you are simply exchanging at a close range.

this is one of the reasons why many unproperly trained people thing chi sau is useless or impractical

I don't advise speaking in absolutes like this.

I can control my opponent just fine without hooking my wrists. In fact - not a lot of energy should be in the wrists or else they could end up being the engine instead of the elbow.

I believe that hooking can be a good thing, but I'm more concerned with hitting. I doubt that lack of hooking is why many, as you say, 'unproperly trained people think Chi Sau is useless or impractical.' Simply, it's because they don't bang! Hit, hit, recover, hit, and hit some more.

Peace,
K

[anerlich]

if you are doing chi sau without hooking your wrists (your whole arm should always look like an 'S' or a 'Z') then you are incapable of really sticking to your opponent.

A number of lineages, William Cheung's for starters, do not use the wrist hook, and are quite capable of sticking.

IMO only an unproperly [sic] trained person would think otherwise.

The hook might work in some situations, but might be a liability in others.

[couch]

The hook might work in some situations, but might be a liability in others.

Agreed. There can be no absolutes and I hate when people start spouting off with this authority BS.

Within the Chi Sau framework, I find hooking very effective only if I need to bring the person back after a push or hit !BUT! this only works if they are trying to stick to me also, ie: we're both playing the CS game.

[Liddel]

if you are doing chi sau without hooking your wrists (your whole arm should always look like an 'S' or a 'Z') then you are incapable of really sticking to your opponent.

in this case you are not doing chi sau you are simply exchanging at a close range.


I disagree - Take Chi Dan Sau - Anyone who would prescribe to this mindset would surely see the practitioner who is drilling Tan Da Bong as NOT STICKING because the actions they are practicing do not envolve hooking :rolleyes: :o

...or that they heavily bend / hook the wrist when using Bong (which where i train is a no no) and see only Bong as a sticking action, rendering the other two hand techs useless.

Apply the same mindset to Lop Sau... Chi Gerk... Chi Do...enough said.



look at these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD7nrNaOmZc

their center is wide open and they are not sticking. there are not giving each other any resistance.

I see resistance, thats why its somewhat sloppy, that and the fact they seem less than advanced students :o
I say this because other than the repeated raising up on the toes to reach overtop which should not be common place with advanced practitioners...
I see both arms inside and no Pak Sau aswell as no use of the body and horse turning together...white shirt uses Bong turning to the side without his horse often.....
There is a disclaimer they had just finished 120 pushups but personally i use more mechanics when my muscles are fatigued cause they simply cant do all the work :).


Within the Chi Sau framework, I find hooking very effective only if I need to bring the person back after a push or hit !BUT! this only works if they are trying to stick to me also, ie: we're both playing the CS game.

Good point Couch

The use of Fook Sau also enables you to -

* Have more sensitivity - it has three main touch points rather than just touching with the base of the palm and

*Loads transitions to other actions via wrist/inch power.

If you have good inch power in the wrist it enables you to Press(Jut/Jum) Pull(fook) turn(huen) with more force.

It also loads other actions like Tan for outside attacks, the rotation of the forearm is an important force for blocking with Tan and coming from Fook when learning in a Chi Sau platform forces the user to automatically rotate from Fook rather than putting out a static unsuported action....same effect generated with actions coming from Wu IMO.


Chi sao is not just for one fixed range.Chi sao IMO is not just rolling-it can dove tail with work closer or further and help with closing. Good coordination including footwork.

Im with Joy on this one.

DREW

[AdrianK]

my sifu and i were discussing chi sao the other day an i'd like to get your take on it. We see chi sau as having mostly 1 range "grappling" range. Its clinch work already close to the opponent. Its not the outside range, where your jab/ thai kicks range, to us chi sao is most useful for that touch sensitivity when youve already gotten in. I dont see chi sau as a bridge to get inside your already there if your close enough to touch. We also do JJ throws and sweeps from chi sao. Anyone else do that type of stuff?

that make sense? what do you all think?

There are so many variations in chi sao that there can be no overly-specific rules or definitions. It is sticking hands, which can be interpreted as several things.

Interpret the words as you want, the template as you wish to train what you need to train and if it works for you, you've found a useful application for it.

I relate it to sparring in that the number of skills you can train with it is fairly vast. It doesn't need to start and end with a single thing, or with only a few things. It can be incorporated into training many things.

Don't bother with rules or any such ridiculousness, "This is the way chi sao should be". You already have the template and concepts, now you should build on them.

[Pacman]

I don't advise speaking in absolutes like this.

I can control my opponent just fine without hooking my wrists. In fact - not a lot of energy should be in the wrists or else they could end up being the engine instead of the elbow.


i dont mind speaking in absolutes about this, because i can guarantee that you will be able to stick to your opponent better with your wrists hooked.

its undeniable. if your entire arm from your elbow to your fingertips is flat, another persons arm can slide off easier than if your wrists are hooked.



I believe that hooking can be a good thing, but I'm more concerned with hitting. I doubt that lack of hooking is why many, as you say, 'unproperly trained people think Chi Sau is useless or impractical.' Simply, it's because they don't bang! Hit, hit, recover, hit, and hit some more.




THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT


you hit the nail on the head. "hit, recover, hit, hit..." as you say. you think you are doing chi sau, but you are actually just exchanging punches at a close range. you arent sticking to your opponent. the winner in one of your 'chi sau' sessions will simply be the person who hits the first and probably whoever hits the fastest

[Mr Punch]

1. Chi sao (poon sao/gor sao...) starts with one wrist to wrist contact and goes all the way in to say a fuk sao control on the back of the head/neck (past elbow to elbow and more like collar-and-elbow 'range' in wrestling). It is not one range, and moving in and out of the ranges is part of the skill.

2. As T said, grappling isn't a range, it's a range of techs and principles for one or both hands gripping the opponent somewhere and aiming to throw, lock or takedown. As such it is definitely not exclusive of chi sao.

3. While judo should be practised from judo set-ups, there's no reason not to practise slipping into judo set-ups from chi sao is there, if you're both game and you realize that you're not actually doing chi sao (you're still doing a useful drill)? I've never done judo (other than a few throws in shooto classes) but I've slipped double and single leg tackles and a number of aikido throws (which when entangled at close range are pretty similar to judo throws anyway) into chi sao before without too many problems.

4. The idea that you need hooks to stick is bollocks. Even the idea that you need hooks to stick better is bollocks. That's about as close I get to a categorical statement! :p :D Why do you think half of chi sao is tan-bong, where tan is straight and bong can be?! And do you never use jut as a wrist-elbow control?! You shouldn't be thinking of winners anyway but the person with the most control is the one who defines when and where the other one hits. You don't need a particular shaped arm for that: you need whole body positioning and good structure. a) I want to be able to attack his structure ('stick') with any part of my body in contact. b) My aim is to hit him until he falls over; sticking is on the way to achieving that. If he slips off my straight arm my fist should be in his face.

Nice red letters though. :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

...(for example, the white crane seizes fox).What's that?

[Edmund]

What's that?

It's like a foot sweep. I'll see if I can find a pic.


Check out Rene's article:
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie02_twelveforms.html

[Phil Redmond]

Here's a clip of dcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VUuW4mdizQ

[Pacman]

Why do you think half of chi sao is tan-bong, where tan is straight and bong can be?!


thanks again for helping me make my point.


my whole point is that if you do your tan sau and bong sau with a straight flat palm, you are not going to be as effective in sticking to your opponent, providing resistance for his movements as you would be if you hooked your hands.

this is a divergence between some lineages that is important where one can't say "wing chun is wing chun" or "all wing chun lineages are essentially the same" as some uninformed people on this site has stated

[Mr Punch]

thanks again for helping me make my point.
More funky formatting doesn't make what you're saying make any more sense. And how is expressing an opposing point helping you make yours?! :confused: :D


my whole point is that if you do your tan sau and bong sau with a straight flat palm, you are not going to be as effective in sticking to your opponent, providing resistance for his movements as you would be if you hooked your hands.

this is a divergence between some lineages that is important where one can't say "wing chun is wing chun" or "all wing chun lineages are essentially the same" as some uninformed people on this site has statedWay to totally miss the point about control and having a structure to automatically hit someone. LOL, go and fight someone. Or even spar. I'm done with talking to you.

Some good posts by others though.

[Mr Punch]

It's like a foot sweep. I'll see if I can find a pic.


Check out Rene's article:
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie02_twelveforms.htmlThanks for the link... nice article. Can't actually see what's going on there with that tech mind...!

[Phil Redmond]

Here's an app from the TWC Dan Chi Sao (with some embellishments), against an uppercut/round punch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4dzwaBeKxs

[LSWCTN1]

its undeniable. if your entire arm from your elbow to your fingertips is flat, another persons arm can slide off easier than if your wrists are hooked.


quite possibly true, however what about when you do strike you have more chance of giving away feeling as the wrist moves to strike

i think that this has been pointed out before by Ali Rahim when commenting on a Philipp Bayer video too.

pro's and con's for each method.

[anerlich]

my whole point is that if you do your tan sau and bong sau with a straight flat palm, you are not going to be as effective in sticking to your opponent, providing resistance for his movements as you would be if you hooked your hands.

Tan: I don't want to "stick" the way you seem to be talking. I want the punch to slip or slide with my tan redirecting it. If the tan is at the proper angle, it would only slip over the top of the wrist/fingers where your hook would be when the arm is being retracted, in which case you are following it or striking anyway. You want to stick and not strike there? I don't.

Bon: The strike's going to slip over the elbow end, not the wrist/fingers, if the angle is correct, which is why you have the wu sao there to catch it.

Fook: you got me there - I'm going to hook on that one.

This is the TWC approach. I'm quite confident I can prove its veracity.


this is a divergence between some lineages that is important where one can't say "wing chun is wing chun" or "all wing chun lineages are essentially the same" as some uninformed people on this site has stated

No one said that on this thread. Try and rein in your tendency to patronise, it's no substitute for logic.

[Edmund]

Thanks for the link... nice article. Can't actually see what's going on there with that tech mind...!

Not the best photo.
It's really just a sweep of the supporting leg in that photo.

Another way when you don't have hold of their leg is just sweeping their lead leg while your arm chops the chest.

[Sihing73]

thanks again for helping me make my point.


my whole point is that if you do your tan sau and bong sau with a straight flat palm, you are not going to be as effective in sticking to your opponent, providing resistance for his movements as you would be if you hooked your hands.

this is a divergence between some lineages that is important where one can't say "wing chun is wing chun" or "all wing chun lineages are essentially the same" as some uninformed people on this site has stated

Hello,

I am sorry but I must disagree with your concept of "Sticking" requiring some sort of hooking action. First off, if you insist on "hooking" you will be providing tension and thus lowering your own sensitivity. Now, one can lay the hand on the opponent and allow the shape to take a somewhat hooked appearence but this will be different from doing an active "hooking action". Remember, when you provide tension you not only impede your own sensitivity but you also provide a "hook" for your opponent as well.

Chi Sau is about energy and does not rely on a specific hand position. While it is true that the three seeds of Taun\Bong and Fook provide structure for the platform of Poon Sau, one would be foolish, imho, to think that only these three hand shapes can be used for Chi Sau or sensitivity training.

Consider that during Chi Sau drills one can perform both a Jum and Jut Sau from the Fook seed. In neither of these shapes would one want to "hook" the opponent.

If one opts to hook during Bong Sau there are both advantages and disadvantages, as in anything else. To take advantage of either shape woudl rely more on ones understanding of energy both giving and accepting and less on whether the arm is hooked or not.

If I am doing Chi Sau or using sensitivity why would I want to provide "resistence" to my opponent? Does this not run the danger of meeting force with force?

IMHO, fwiw, Chi Sau should rely on the contact point of the wrist and is not reliant on a hook. Try this: take your one hand and place it in contact with the other at the wrists. Lay the one hand on the top of the other, lightly, do not try to put any pressure or tension. Close your eyes and move the other or lower arm around. Pay attention to the feeling and energy provided to your "sensing" arm. Now do the same thing but this time apply an active "hook" with the upper arm. Tell me which is more sensitive.

Of course Chi Sau ultimately involves more than arms or legs but is an application of the entire body. IMHO

[Pacman]

you are right, chi sau requires the proper energy. chi sau also requires the proper body structure.

you are also right, you do not need hand positions to stick to an opponent, but you do need proper hand structure so that your opponent will not slide off of your arms.



Hello,

I am sorry but I must disagree with your concept of "Sticking" requiring some sort of hooking action. First off, if you insist on "hooking" you will be providing tension and thus lowering your own sensitivity. Now, one can lay the hand on the opponent and allow the shape to take a somewhat hooked appearence but this will be different from doing an active "hooking action". Remember, when you provide tension you not only impede your own sensitivity but you also provide a "hook" for your opponent as well.

Chi Sau is about energy and does not rely on a specific hand position. While it is true that the three seeds of Taun\Bong and Fook provide structure for the platform of Poon Sau, one would be foolish, imho, to think that only these three hand shapes can be used for Chi Sau or sensitivity training.

Consider that during Chi Sau drills one can perform both a Jum and Jut Sau from the Fook seed. In neither of these shapes would one want to "hook" the opponent.

If one opts to hook during Bong Sau there are both advantages and disadvantages, as in anything else. To take advantage of either shape woudl rely more on ones understanding of energy both giving and accepting and less on whether the arm is hooked or not.

If I am doing Chi Sau or using sensitivity why would I want to provide "resistence" to my opponent? Does this not run the danger of meeting force with force?

IMHO, fwiw, Chi Sau should rely on the contact point of the wrist and is not reliant on a hook. Try this: take your one hand and place it in contact with the other at the wrists. Lay the one hand on the top of the other, lightly, do not try to put any pressure or tension. Close your eyes and move the other or lower arm around. Pay attention to the feeling and energy provided to your "sensing" arm. Now do the same thing but this time apply an active "hook" with the upper arm. Tell me which is more sensitive.

Of course Chi Sau ultimately involves more than arms or legs but is an application of the entire body. IMHO

[Sihing73]

you are right, chi sau requires the proper energy. chi sau also requires the proper body structure.

you are also right, you do not need hand positions to stick to an opponent, but you do need proper hand structure so that your opponent will not slide off of your arms.

Hello,

If you believe that "hooking" is the only "proper" hand structure then I am afraid your exposure to Chi Sau has been or is quite limited. Kind of like a horse wearing blinders so it is not distracted by its surroundings. Just cause he can't see it does not mean it is not there.

When one deals in absolutes one puts themselves into a box and limits their ability and growth potential.

[LSWCTN1]

you are also right, you do not need hand positions to stick to an opponent, but you do need proper hand structure so that your opponent will not slide off of your arms.

that i agree with - it seems your chi sao may be simmilar to ours - its about smothering and not always all out attack

incorrect HAND structure causes the energy to not be transferred correctly. that the way i learn and feel

[Pacman]

Hello,

If you believe that "hooking" is the only "proper" hand structure then I am afraid your exposure to Chi Sau has been or is quite limited. Kind of like a horse wearing blinders so it is not distracted by its surroundings. Just cause he can't see it does not mean it is not there.

When one deals in absolutes one puts themselves into a box and limits their ability and growth potential.

talking about avoiding absolutes absolutes and boxes and potentials sounds very nice and flowery.

check it out.

what if someone punched with their thumb sticking straight out--and they had some ****amamie reason for doing this? regardless of what they said its undeniable that sticking your thumb out will lead to a bigger chance of you spraining or breaking it.

im not saying you cant do chi sao without hooking your hands

but what i can say, without a doubt, is that by adopting this posture you will increase the ability to stop your opponents hands from sliding off your arms and therefore stick.

[couch]

you hit the nail on the head. "hit, recover, hit, hit..." as you say. you think you are doing chi sau, but you are actually just exchanging punches at a close range. you arent sticking to your opponent. the winner in one of your 'chi sau' sessions will simply be the person who hits the first and probably whoever hits the fastest

When two people enter into a fight, are they not exchanging punches at close range?

And yes the winner of my CS sessions is the usually the one who hits first. "He who hits first, wins." Good saying for the street, too. If I hit my opponent, I can disrupt timing and balance. This also allows me to keep hitting and therefore win. If my attack is challenged, I recover and hit again.

Should we make Wing Chun any more complicated???

[Liddel]

Hey i realise there are many approaches so lets keep this about techs and theory and not about bashing you per se....ok, cause i realise we are different branches of VT.


i dont mind speaking in absolutes about this, because i can guarantee that you will be able to stick to your opponent better with your wrists hooked.

This IME is not true and if a Wing Chun practitioner could not stick without hooks or solely with hooks such as Fook sau then your paving your way to being for lack of a better term a 'one trick pony' , its better to be able to perfom with and without hooks... so if you can stick better with hooks great but clearly from peoples responces here its a personal thing not a generic phenom that applies to all :o



its undeniable. if your entire arm from your elbow to your fingertips is flat, another persons arm can slide off easier than if your wrists are hooked.

Yes but where does it slide buddy, not to your center if you know what your doing.

This is precisely why i have my Tan and Bong flat from elbow to finger tips im redirecting forces that i dont want loaded on my body...im letting it go and following up.
My opinion is that for one - it requires you to use energy at the wrist stiffening you up some and two - lessens responce time transitioning to other actions.

Thats my experience, others differ fine.

If i wanted the forces/ action to stay for example using Bong - not only would you have a bend at the wrist there would be no need to have the wrist lower than the elbow...your Bong would be level to make actions stay put which most lineages Bong Saus are not. So if you want actions to stay start with a horizontal Bong or do away with bong and just use different applications of Lan Sau ;)


you do not need hand positions to stick to an opponent, but you do need proper hand structure so that your opponent will not slide off of your arms.

If you can make an opponents action slide away to a position that puts you at an advantage thats good no ?

Making actions slide or coercing them away from your center more often puts me in a better position which generally gets my fist closer to the opponents face :D

Picture you sliding your punch further and further up your own arm on my bong, my Bongs touch point is the same, at or near the wrist, your touch point begins at your wrist and slides further up your arm to your elbow as you press foward and you end up bent foward and off to my side with my bongs elbow near your face and my Wu Sau ready to change to a punch and travel the inches to your face.

Thats just one example, same results if you slide on my Tan :p

I think you should contemplate the angles that are everywhere in VT and ask why ? I say this because my VT revolves around angles that coerce forces away from my center and put me in advantageous positions and this lends directly back to when we learn Chi Sau and are told to minimise force against force.
Angles are key hooks not so much IME.

VT has Chi Do with the BJD and Kwan Do with the Pole. we stick with the Do but yet cant hook the blades we stick with te pole but cant bend the shaft....
how do you suppose your theory lends to other ares of VT ?

DREW

[Pacman]

When two people enter into a fight, are they not exchanging punches at close range?


what i mean by "exchanging" is the free flow of punches without any sticking/resistance from the other opponent. if you are using chi sau technique successfully, your opponent should not be able to move freely.



And yes the winner of my CS sessions is the usually the one who hits first. "He who hits first, wins." Good saying for the street, too. If I hit my opponent, I can disrupt timing and balance. This also allows me to keep hitting and therefore win. If my attack is challenged, I recover and hit again.

Should we make Wing Chun any more complicated???

the point i was trying to make was that if two people are in a close range, and neither person is sticking to the other person, then obviously all you have to do to get a hit on the other person is be the first to throw a punch.

at that close range, with no resistance no one can block your punch. its too fast.

you are missing a very important principle of chi sau

[Pacman]

i appreciate your desire to discuss.

my purpose is not to bash.


before responding to other points in your post, i would like to respond to this:




Yes but where does it slide buddy, not to your center if you know what your doing.


where does it slide? perhaps not your center if you are doing things correctly, you are right. but imagine doing chi sau on a person who doesn't want to chi sau! your opponents hands wont slide to your center but it will slide off of yours somehow--your opponent will detach from you and render your chi sau useless.

people practice chi sau like this for years..then they run into a boxer in the street and BAM they get knocked on their ass. then they think chi sau is useless and you have people like t niehoff saying chi sau is "fantasy"

[Katsu Jin Ken]

pacman
if you unlink i can follow. Chi sau isnt chum kiu (seeking the bridge) you've already bridged. rolling in chi sau isnt fighting its training for fighting. In a real fight, if we touch hands (say someone starts trying to grapple) i try to feel his intentions control him then strike, chi sau to me is about controling the opponent and sensitivity nothing more.

[Pacman]

yes controlling the person and sensitivity--i think we can both agree that losing contact inhibits both of those endeavours

keeping contact helps control and sensitivity

as you know, even if you strike, it is beneficial to keep contact and therefore control.

like i said in my other posts, many people think chi sau is not practical due to incorrect training and improper application

[couch]

what i mean by "exchanging" is the free flow of punches without any sticking/resistance from the other opponent. if you are using chi sau technique successfully, your opponent should not be able to move freely.



the point i was trying to make was that if two people are in a close range, and neither person is sticking to the other person, then obviously all you have to do to get a hit on the other person is be the first to throw a punch.

at that close range, with no resistance no one can block your punch. its too fast.

you are missing a very important principle of chi sau

Understood.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well in my Opinion Chi sau is very useful. Buts its only one third of the equation.

Now in the states legally you can do three things that will improve your Wingchun.


1.Chi Sau = The connection here allows you to get use to feeling your opponents bridge. The sensitivity here will assist you in striking if you are ever against someone who uses grappling or hard iron bridges. Chi Sau teaches you how to destroy a bridge, dissolve force and turn off your opponents power. Chi Sau allows you to practice, develop and learn techniques in semi-pain free enviroment. It allows you to flow freely with random motions while attacking and defending or you can drill set patterns.


2.San Shou = This is also very useful. Unlike Chi Sau there is no bridge. Your partner should do random drills with force using various attack patterns from Wrestling, Boxing, TKD or some other art. This trains your reflexes, Eyes, Responses and basic self defense against a fighter who tries to be elusive and dissolve your bridge so you can not feel their intent. One should train Both San Shou and Chi Sau alike. That way your ready for both ranges and able to defend against both. Hint:In a fight When you throw a punch and your opponent has intercepted or blocked your punch there you have created a bridge. From there chi sau should kick in an instantly go to trapping and striking. If your opponents strikes the second you Bong Sau, Tan Sau or Bil Sau his attack you
have just created a bridge. Now you can march across and destroy the castle.


3.Fighting = Since legally you can not fight people in the west I suggest settle for full contact sparring. Gear up with Mouth Piece, Cup, Headgear, and Kenpo gloves.
Punch hard. Work on trapping your opponent. Kick hard. Try to make your opponent fall from your power. Try to knock him on his back. If you can knock your opponent down from your kicks or punches and stop him from knocking you then you are improving an need to find a different type of fighter. Freestyle sparring is hard and painful unlike Chi Sau. An if your fighting someone thats trying to knock you out or bust your nose then you have an incentive to actual practice your art for real. Also you can also try to use various WC techniques. The more you practice San Shou and Chi Sau with various WC techs and apply them while drilling eventually if you keep sparring more and more of the techs will come out. If you don't have gear to go full contact. Then go medium force. For instance maybe just use light slaps to face to give your opponent a sting so he knows he has been hit. An hard punches and palm strikes to body which will give you a reason to put dit da jow on the red spots later. All the while you arebuilding up your cardio, Iron body, threshold for pain and skill in technique while fighting.


Chi Sau is just one component. Before I said three...but actually their are four parts to making your WC better.

1.Chi Sau

2.San Shou

3.Sparring

4.Real Fights

***Its illegal to challenge strangers to fight with you. But sometimes real fights happen. Sparring you can get the same effect as fighting. But in actual fight there no rules, equipment or protection. You are afraid of being hurt in a real fight. It could be your life if you loose. A real fight is scary and the idea of the unknown is a factor. You may not know why your advesary is attacking you. You may not know them personally or if they have Martial training at all. An untrained fighter is totally different than a skilled fighter. They are totally unpredictable. You have to be ready for anything with them. Real street fights are unpredictable too. Really scary. But a person who can use his Wing Chun in real street an survive with out a scratch is a master of his art. His Fighting art is fully functional and has been tested by fire. Only those who have use their Wing Chun in real fights have true experience with the system. All the rest of us only have 3/4ths of the system to draw from. But in a real fight many techniques you use in sparring you may not be able to use in a fight. Some techniques not used in sparring can be used in a real fight. So there is a total difference. A person who has to fight with his art has a wealth of functional and appliable knowledge on his system. Reason being is they have different memories, epiphanies, experiences and wisdom to draw from. Actual fights change your understanding and perception of sparring, Chi Sau and San Shou.

[Liddel]

where does it slide? perhaps not your center if you are doing things correctly, you are right. but imagine doing chi sau on a person who doesn't want to chi sau!

your opponents hands wont slide to your center but it will slide off of yours somehow--your opponent will detach from you and render your chi sau useless.

LOL the first sentence applies to every sparring partner i have :p of course they dont want to stick, anymore than a standup fighter wants to be taken to the ground...your in someone elses house or expertise.

You have a relevant point but this supposes Chi sau is only about sticking.
Point being that those that dont want to stick while in close with me wont see me chasing hands just for the sake of sticking.

Accept what comes...stick sure.... follow what goes...no stick or loss of sticking attack ! right ?

Your POV to me seems to be that VT has no tools to deal with 'no contact'.

For example Detach is a general word i would put foward that my punch touching your face is attatched IMO. :rolleyes:

To me the most important part of Chi Sau/ VT/ Fighting is catching the target !

only when that cant happen because of the opponents ability to avoid my attacks and or attack me do i need to stick to gain control. Punching comes first sticking comes second, which anyone who has gone beyond training into application should realise.

This is my concern with the way most VT is learnt, i only realised later in training that the first thing related to having an opponent in front of you in the VT learning cirriculum was actually a few steps into a confrontation senario....which lends to your next point -



people practice chi sau like this for years..then they run into a boxer in the street and BAM they get knocked on their ass. then they think chi sau is useless and you have people like t niehoff saying chi sau is "fantasy"

My take on T's POV is that his issue is not with the content... he does/has done VT. His issue is with 'the method', people only practicing non realistic compliant drills - and not sparring or performing at the same speed and force as the act of fighting.

Which is why as well as Chi Dan Sau and Poon Sau VT also has Lux Sau and Gor Sau. and if your keen on fighting skills - sparring !

Hooks or not a VT practitioner is NEVER going to be able to force someone to stick who doesnt know its VTs bread and butter, which is why we have maxims (sp?) which tell us how to act when things dont go our way.

AGAIN as one example - Accept what comes follow what goes - the "follow what goes" part is actually a loss of contact right ? :rolleyes:

My sparring partners know i do VT so of course they try to avoid sticking with me as much as they can if im in close... they would rather tie me up / take me down / or stay on the outside and bridge in minimising the sticking regardless of how well i can use hooks.

DREW

[Pacman]

hi liddel

very analytical response.



You have a relevant point but this supposes Chi sau is only about sticking.

it does not suppose that chi sau is only about sticking, but that sticking is a very important part of chi sau (chi sau as you know literally means "sticky hand")


Point being that those that dont want to stick while in close with me wont see me chasing hands just for the sake of sticking.

i dotn want to chase either. by sticking you don't have to chase. there are other options



Your POV to me seems to be that VT has no tools to deal with 'no contact'.

absolutely not. what im driving at is that lots of people who think they are practicing sticky hands are not practicing sticky hands. they are simply exchanging blocks and punches at a close range.


My take on T's POV is that his issue is not with the content... he does/has done VT. His issue is with 'the method', people only practicing non realistic compliant drills - and not sparring or performing at the same speed and force as the act of fighting.

the issue i have with niehoff's POV on chi sau is that he seems to think that only live fighting has learning value.


Hooks or not a VT practitioner is NEVER going to be able to force someone to stick who doesnt know its VTs bread and butter

i think you are saying that a VT practitioner is never going to be able to stick to an opponent who does not know VT? i vehemently disagree

[CFT]

i dotn want to chase either. by sticking you don't have to chase. there are other optionsFor arguments sake, let's assume we are in a chi sau drill, you have your lower fook sau on his tan sau. If he moves his tan way off his centre, say outside his shoulder, what are you going to do? Still stick or huen and punch/palm?


i think you are saying that a VT practitioner is never going to be able to stick to an opponent who does not know VT? i vehemently disagreeIn sparring how are you going to stick to someone who does not offer you a bridge? Hooking your hands isn't going to offer enough control. You can only stick in chi sau because it is a cooperative drill to develop certain habits.

[Mr Punch]

Not to mention sticking with jum sao, gaun sao, gum sao, sticking pak, lan sao... He's talking bollocks, Chee mate.

[Pacman]

For arguments sake, let's assume we are in a chi sau drill, you have your lower fook sau on his tan sau. If he moves his tan way off his centre, say outside his shoulder, what are you going to do? Still stick or huen and punch/palm?


what i would do depends on the location of his other hand and the rest of his body. there isnt a formula you can follow. i can tell you in general that if my opponent left his center open i would of course strike it, but even while striking i would want to detach as little as possible and try to keep contact with both my hands if possible.


In sparring how are you going to stick to someone who does not offer you a bridge? Hooking your hands isn't going to offer enough control. You can only stick in chi sau because it is a cooperative drill to develop certain habits.

i mentioned the improper hand posture as one example of how i have seen people performing chi sau ineffectively. this is not all there is to it--you won't master chi sau control by simply adopting the proper hand posture so you are right, hooking your hands" isnt going to be enough.

i can't explain how to perform chi sau in one post, or even two or three posts, but I just want to throw out there the notion that chi sau is not just a drill and that you can stick to your opponent even when they dont want you to.

i am not surprised that you think chi sau is just a drill and not applicable. many think that too. that was one of the points of my post.