Beginner form syllabus for Northern Mantis systems

[Tensei85]

Hey,

I was wondering for the individual and various styles and lineages what beginner forms syllabus do each utilize?

For instance in the 7 Star Praying Mantis system that I study we have the 9 beginner sets that utilize important concepts and provide the base skills for the beginning practitioner.

The 9 beginner sets:

Tan Tui (tan toy)
Tui Jin
Gune Lik Kuen (gong li quan)
Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy (shi su lu tan tui)
Bong bou (beng bu)
Chap Choy (cha chui)
Sap Pa Sau (shi ba shou)
Dore Guan (dou gang)
Ha Fu Ga Chau (hei hu jiao cha)

Which each represent a specific concept of use for developing the base level gong fu.

and beginner weapon sets:
Ng lung guan
Bagua dao
Double broadsword, etc...


Thanks for any input.

[Codeboy]

I'm not positive where Beginner ends and "Intermediate" picks up but from what I can tell at our school, these are beginner level (I will use your spelling of the form names):

Tan Tui
Tui Jin
Gune Lik Kuen
Chap Choy
Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy

I would think Bung Bo, Jeet Kuen, Dau Gong, Sap Baht Sao, etc would be "Intermediate" level.

[MightyB]

... and then after a whole bunch of years you take a closer look at Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy and your realize "my gosh- the man was a genius!"

[seung ga faat]

Tong Long Baht Bouh Kuen is a form that must be taught first before these others.
It is aka the long work form or Work Horse Form.
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[Tensei85]

actually its hard for me to understand the exact meaning without the chinese characters but doesnt that translate as praying mantis 8 step fist?
can you elaborate more about it if possible?

thanks

[EarthDragon]

tang - praying
lang- mantis
ba- 8
bu- step
chuan-fist

kuen means form... there are southern mantis styles that speak cantonese while northern speak mandarin with less of an "owu" sounds in thier dielect hope this helps, wlecome to the mantis family

[Tensei85]

Thanks Earth dragon,
Actually I speak Mando and a decent level of Canto.
It makes a lot more sense to me with characters but your explanantion helps.
On a side note there are some northern systems that use Canto terminology due to Hong Kong migration. For instance certain families of WHF and CCM utilize Canto as well.

Thanks for the welcome, and great info.

[Tensei85]

Hey mightyb,

I agree there's so many essentials in sap sei lo tan toy. Its like the base of a mountain is what it reminds me of. However not my favorite form to practice (sometimes a little boring) but I have tremendous respect for the level of knowledge obtained through the understanding of sap sei lo tan toy.

[Tensei85]

Just wanted to share some of the info my Sifu made me aware of.

Sifu says that the 1st 9 beginner sets can all be divided in "Yao" and "Gong" sequence formats.

each one besides representing hard and soft also represent specific concepts of different parts of the body and attributes that are cultivated.

so the way Sifu divided the sets were as:

Tan Toy (gong)
Gune Lik Kuen (gong)
Sap Sei Lo (gong)
Tui Jin (yao)
Beng Bu (gong-yao)
Chap Choy (gong)
Dou Gang (yao)
Sap Ba Sau (yao)
Ha Fu Ga Chau (yao)

well atleast i found it interesting, so just wanted to share.

[MightyB]

Hey mightyb,

I agree there's so many essentials in sap sei lo tan toy. Its like the base of a mountain is what it reminds me of. However not my favorite form to practice (sometimes a little boring) but I have tremendous respect for the level of knowledge obtained through the understanding of sap sei lo tan toy.

I hated doing it until I realized that sap sei lo basically was the key to fighting with mantis. Learned this through cross-training in Judo. It doesn't cover everything- like I can't figure out why it doesn't have this key combo (spelling phonetically) Tai sa na ding - yi ming chit don - ha fu gou cha (Tai mountain crashes - punch straight to the face - steal the heart).

In my opinion- a person should learn sap sei lo, then applications, then spar - rinse, lather, repeat for three years. Throughout that time they should be introduced to some new offensive and defensive combinations, but no new forms. After about 3 years of that- then start showing forms (cause they'll have applications and sparring down) and then the forms will actually mean something to them.

[Tensei85]

Hey mightyb,
I can definitely appreciate the logic flow of your opinion.
Actually I haven't thought about it that way, but you make a good point however I would add just like you said a few keywords are missing for instance what you listed as well as the concept of seung kua. So to me based on an external side I would say sap sei lo is (#1) by far but on more of an internal side it seems to be lacking in a few areas. I guess thats why Sifu labeled it as a "gong" form. Thanks for the concepts you provided.

[Tensei85]

After further consideration I would have to say that Sap Sei Lo may have a basic intrepretation of Seung Kua from the Chat Sing Bou at the beginning sequence of each road seems to denote a basic concept of seung kua. I still wonder why each road is in the specific sequence that it is. It seems like there must be some type of logic flow behind it.

[MightyB]

IMO-

I think there's too much emphasis on "tea drinking" kung fu in Mantis. I derive this from reading the forum and talking to people. What I mean is- take what we're talking about now and look at Mantis methodology and theory. Sub Sa Lo isn't really a form- it's a series of techniques that are linked- very much like basic warmups... Mantis practitioners like to over think everything- IMO most of the theory and concepts make very interesting topics for discussion when we're "drinking tea" after class, but they confuse students who are trying to learn kung fu. We get very into concepts, translations, and theories...

Regarding Hard and Soft- The most poignant insight I've learned from Sifu is "Yao Yi Gong" - or the concept of using Soft to defeat the Hard... but... really what that means is to relax through the technique- this is a universal truth in all martial arts- you can respond to an attack with force on force, redirection, or yielding. All are valid- but redirection and yielding are high level and have to be worked on constantly. This is truly what Hard and Soft mean. The forms themselves won't and can't teach you to relax in a confrontation. My idea behind starting with Sub Sa Lo- applications- and controlled sparring is to start right away with a technique based approach. Then you actually learn the 8 hard and 12 soft techniques as techniques- not concepts (other very successful MA styles teach this way). Then they aren't vague concepts- they are valid responses to a situation that leads me to the 2nd most important thing you can learn from studying 7*--- that is learning how to occupy and control space. I'm talking about dominating another persons comfort zone and balance. This is somewhat summarized with the phrase "so fot, bo fot, sun yin" hand techniques, foot work, body positioning.

I think then after you learn and internalize the above- you start on your journey of learning forms- and they will mean more to you.

Ok- gotta work- but I do have a lot more to say on this issue- so fire away.

[Tensei85]

Wow! Holy crap, I just gained so much useful insight from your last post!
Actually I have a few things to do as well, but I have a lot more questions and ideas to add and ask.
Thanks in advance.

[Paul T England]

So what are these important concepts relating to each of the set? What is the concept of Ha Fu or Gung Li Keun

Why Ng Long Kwun and Bagua Dao?

Each teacher will teach forms order slightly different....if I did not have a syllaabus from my teacher I would teach them in a very different order. Also I have seen changes in the order taught eaven by the same family!

Also Which family has tong long Baat Bouh Kuen? I have not seen it in LKW family listing.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[MightyB]

So what are these important concepts relating to each of the set? What is the concept of Ha Fu or Gung Li Keun

Why Ng Long Kwun and Bagua Dao?

Each teacher will teach forms order slightly different....if I did not have a syllaabus from my teacher I would teach them in a very different order. Also I have seen changes in the order taught eaven by the same family!

Also Which family has tong long Baat Bouh Kuen? I have not seen it in LKW family listing.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Again- just my opinion, but- that's why I say none of this is important at the beginner level. It's just too darn confusing. You can literally teach all of the techniques and concepts through drilling and sparring without actually telling the students those concepts. I'd wait for them to internalize without knowing they internalized them before I would get into any deep philosophical discussions about key words and theory. Heck- if they can pull off a nou lou choi, tu sou, yin min chit don, ha fu gou cha, foom sau, bung choi, to a yu jom (phonetic spelling of what I think Sifu's saying in Cantonese - but I don't hear the tonal connotations too well though) combo through natural reaction- they would've effectively displayed just about every philosophical concept in mantis. When they can do that- that's the time to start debating theory. Otherwise it's just a bunch-o-gobbly gook that will hinder their progress, not help it.

The above combo English-ized: bad guy throughs a straight punch- you do the hook control punch (choi som sau) they block, you follow with an intercepting hand and punch straight to their face, they block so you drop to a heart stealing strike, they block again, so you (foom sau bung choi) overhand control back fist, they block- so you do the waist chopping strike/take down. Pretty much covers every darn concept except no Fan Che in that combo.

[Tensei85]

I would have to agree with Mightyb's opinion.
But given its the internet and really the only thing we can talk about is the concepts or experiences.
And plus I'm a Univ. Student so I spend most of my time obsessing about concepts and logic flow... (lol, not much of a life)

So for me the forms in themselves represent the concepts for instance not only are there underlying concepts but their are surface layer concepts as well.

1st. the name themselves represent a concept.

Sap yi lo tan toy (12 roads spring leg) Builds a strong core with reactive kicks (not stringent)
Gune lik kuen (Flow Power Fist) or sometimes "Power boxing" etc...
Sap sei lo tan toy (14 roads spring leg) Showcases the concepts and the mechanics of mantis boxing
Beng bu (Crush step)(Burst step)
Chap choy (Thrusting Hammer) Teaches how to issue power from a vertical position.
Dou gang (avoid force-parry) as the name implies teaches the student how to avoid force from a parrying position. Instead of the "force against force" complex
Sap ba sau (18 elders) teaches the student how to issue "Jing" from a soft approach utilizing the Chat Sing Bou.
Ha Fu Ga Chao (black tiger cross) As Mightyb gave descriptive details.

What was stated above represents the surface layer concepts and "body methods" (Sun Faat)

Then we have the concepts that each mantis system will utilize in training (for instance some families will pay more attention to certain sequences or body mechanics) some may use the fa jing concept while other pay more attention to the seung kua concept, etc... then the "12 keyword principles" are of vital importance as well.

Instead of re listing what many have already posted, I'll just post a link to a discussion thread. http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-218.html

[MightyB]

I would have to agree with Mightyb's opinion.
But given its the internet and really the only thing we can talk about is the concepts or experiences.
And plus I'm a Univ. Student so I spend most of my time obsessing about concepts and logic flow... (lol, not much of a life)

So for me the forms in themselves represent the concepts for instance not only are there underlying concepts but their are surface layer concepts as well.

1st. the name themselves represent a concept.

Sap yi lo tan toy (12 roads spring leg) Builds a strong core with reactive kicks (not stringent)
Gune lik kuen (Flow Power Fist) or sometimes "Power boxing" etc...
Sap sei lo tan toy (14 roads spring leg) Showcases the concepts of the mechanics of mantis boxing
Beng bu (Crush step)(Burst step)
Chap choy (Thrusting Hammer) Teaches how to issue power from a vertical position.
Dou gang (avoid force-parry) as the name implies teaches the student how to avoid force from a parrying position. Instead of the "force against force" complex
Sap ba sau (18 elders) teaches the student how to issue "Jing" from a soft approach utilizing the Chat Sing Bou.
Ha Fu Ga Chao (black tiger cross) As Mightyb gave descriptive details.

What was stated above represents the surface layer concepts and "body methods" (Sun Faat)

Then we have the concepts that each mantis system will utilize in training (for instance some families will pay more attention to certain sequences or body mechanics) some may use the fa jing concept while other pay more attention to the seung kua concept, etc... then the "12 keyword principles" are of vital importance as well.

Instead of re listing what many have already posted, I'll just post a link to a discussion thread. http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-218.html

What's funny is that most of my favorite forms are on this list - "basic" doesn't equal "low level". The ones I probably use the most for self analysis and introspection into technique are Sub Sa Lo and Sap ba sau (I've been thinking way more "death gate" lately). Plus I think Chap Choy feels good. My other more advanced favs are Tong Long Chit Don and Siu Fu Yin ( sp? ) Those are pretty much all the forms I practice anymore.

I can find something I like from about every form--- but I only have so much time in a day ;)

[Tensei85]

I agree,
Its actually kinda funny but I have more difficulties sometimes practicing forms like Dou Gang then I do Sern Bei Sau! So beginner definitely doesn't equate to low level.

On a side note at this moment I would have to say Bai Yuen Tuo Tao (Bak Yun Tao Tou) is my favorite form to practice, its short and sweet but straight to the point...

[seung ga faat]

This form is from the LKY, CCM, Chiu Luen Lineage. The late Sifu Chiu stop teaching this form to His Disciples in the late seventies. It consists of the leg work, bodywork, kicking and hand manuevers, as well as animals and ground boxing found in our clan of 7-Star. It is a comprehensive form which prepares the student form the ground up.
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[Tainan Mantis]

The basic forms we learn corrospond to the 14 roads of Mantis Created by Luo Guang Yu for those in that lineage.

8 Step has their own 8 roads and we also have 8 roads.

I just wrote an article with pics showing our second road, which some of you may find familiar, especially if you have trained in Plum Flower Mantis.

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/hide%20the%20peach.htm

[Qixing Tanglang]

For people out there running a commercial school then maybe it makes sense to establish some “beginner” forms. By that I mean something just a little easier for the student to do. Mantis forms are not easy – especially for someone who has never done MA.

Forms like Gong Li Quan 12 Lu Tan Tui are not Praying Mantis. I am sure everyone is clear on that.

For our school (although not commercial by any means) our teacher Kai Uwe Pel teaches Beng Bu Quan, Shi Ba Shou and Duo Gang. These are considered core and most important to our Seven Star system, so they are taught first. Forms are just a small part of our training, but he progressively teaches more peripheral forms throughout the training process.

Rgds,
N