Wing Chun for Combat

[Yoshiyahu]

Question. With all the threats that may befall you in dark alley or getting jumped by thugs while walking to your car in parking garage or parking lot. I was woundering what you guys think of fingers conditioning to make your Bil Gee strikes more pliable and able to penetrate an send Chi to a given pressure point on the center line?

http://members.tripod.com/RyuBuKan/images/Conception_Vessel.JPG

Training the Fingers:
1.Holding Jars filled with sand or water?

http://shaolin.org/images/shaolin/claw06c.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=KFQ95tE1UowC&pg=PA129&dq=eagle+claw+conditioning#PPA130,M1

2.Push ups on your fingers?

http://shaolin.org/images/shaolin/claw05c.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=KFQ95tE1UowC&pg=PA129&dq=eagle+claw+conditioning#PPA125,M1

3.Finger striking a hanging bag filled with beans or sand?


4.Thrusting fingers into a Bowl filled with Rice.(later Beans, Sand,Gravel and steel shots).

http://shaolin.org/images/shaolin/claw02c.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=KFQ95tE1UowC&pg=PA129&dq=eagle+claw+conditioning



Many say that doing finger exercises cause deformities or side effects such as arthritis later on????


Well doesn't Dit Da Jows and Iron Palm liniments help heal the hands so their is no long term or extended damage?



It is very important to apply suitable medication for such training. Wash the hands in medicated concoction before and after training. This will clear blockage and generate blood flow, overcome swelling and eliminate pain.


Some say striking surfaces with your fingers cause damage to your eyes?


Once a week drink a medical concoction called “Brightening Eyes Concoction”. Piercing beans may affect the eyes. Aspiring students must not be ignorant of the importance of medical supplement. Otherwise, not only they may fail in acquiring the art, but hurt their hands and eyes. In kungfu terminology, this is “zou huo ru mo” (“Chow for yup mo”), which is “fire escapes eveil enters” or in simple modern language, “deviation”.


Also what if some one practices 18 Figure Chi Kung Daily twice a day. Wouldn't this also aid in the promotion of healthy eyes and hands and body?

If someone develop the ability to pierce their hands through a bag of sand would this be a good tool to use against multiple attackers?



http://books.google.com/books?id=DBsfcUGZTcYC&pg=PA29&dq=eagle+claw+training#PPA49,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=DBsfcUGZTcYC&pg=PA29&dq=eagle+claw+training#PPA50,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=_tYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA20&dq=piercing+hand+training#PPA20,M1

One can use a century bob to place red or yellow stickers along the points of 14 main meridans. Then one can practice striking them over and over again each day until it becomes natural.

The Meridan that has points running down the center line is called the conception Meridan.

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/images/cv_meridian.gif

http://www.thebodyworker.com/conceptionvesselmeridian.gif


Along the center of the back there is the Governing Meridan

http://archaeomyth.com/China%27s%20Arts/governing2-clear.gif

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/images/gv_meridian.gif




Points to attack:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m90/Anno_Nonymous/KungFu/Pressurepoints.jpg?t=1240970055


Pressure Point charts:

http://www.mothernature.com/images/library/books/newchoices/pg14.GIF

http://www.handsoflight2012.com/images/12-meridians_1_.gif

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i sometime do number 3, i dont really worry about it if im gonna finger strike it'll be to an eye and your fingers dont have to be conditioned to do damage to that organ.

on a second note, if i manifest my chi consiously i can direct it towards an oncoming advisery and blind him with a thunderous boom and tremendous flash of light...............my chi has transformed into a cylinderical form, imbedded a pull pin all i do is pull and throw. Some might say its a flash banger but to me its my chi

[Vajramusti]

Good grief!!

[Lee Chiang Po]

When I was a young man, I would use a large box of loose sand for training my hands. I would spear my fingers into the sand box in an effort to drive them as deeply into the sand as possible. At first the fingers will try to turn in every direction. Eventually, the hand strengthens and learns to align itself so that it has stability and penetration. Your hands will become extremely tough and take some really blows. It will not injure your hands or your eyes. Targets for Bil Jee are the eyes, the throat, the face and sides of the head and neck, the arm pits, the groin, and the liver and the spleen. By groin I am not refering to the testicles, but the crease from the hip bone to the pelvic bridge. This area is just loaded with nerves and large blood vains, and a strong bil jee to the groin can prove fatal. The throat is a good target, and it will drop an opponent instantly. But if you are not careful you can collapse the wind pipe and kill the person.
You really do not have to abuse your hands in order to train them to become serious weapons. Just consistancy in your training of them. Use loose sand.
The way you use the hand is to use the 2 middle fingers as the main spear point with the little finger and the first finger as a brace for the middle 2. And of course you know how to roll the hand at the wrist on impact.

[Yoshiyahu]

i sometime do number 3, i dont really worry about it if im gonna finger strike it'll be to an eye and your fingers dont have to be conditioned to do damage to that organ.

on a second note, if i manifest my chi consiously i can direct it towards an oncoming advisery and blind him with a thunderous boom and tremendous flash of light...............my chi has transformed into a cylinderical form, imbedded a pull pin all i do is pull and throw. Some might say its a flash banger but to me its my chi

I am not trying to condscending or arrogant but by your statement I can see your Sifu or older Brothers have never shared this information with you. Your statement shows your lack knowledge in this area. Actually I started the conversation as way to enlighten some people on this forum. I was training atleast three to four years before my Sifu discuss this type of training with me. When I first was introduced to it. It was totally new and strange. I want to share topics that came up with me as young man. So others will have atleast heard or been exposed to various training and kungs of Wing Chun that may or may not been done in their lineage. I really desire that my threads become a spring board for dialogue and sharing of useful information that can improve and inform Newcomers to Wing Chun. I love the Yuen Kay San art an wish to share more with others. But I also wish to learn from other lineages an how they condition and strenghten themselves for fighting.

Please if you can share an valid opinion on Wing Chun or Snake Fist conditioning please share something concerning your Karate Iron fist or Hand conditioning.

Whats the Karate way of developing the spear hand?



When I was a young man, I would use a large box of loose sand for training my hands. I would spear my fingers into the sand box in an effort to drive them as deeply into the sand as possible. At first the fingers will try to turn in every direction. Eventually, the hand strengthens and learns to align itself so that it has stability and penetration. Your hands will become extremely tough and take some really blows. It will not injure your hands or your eyes. Targets for Bil Jee are the eyes, the throat, the face and sides of the head and neck, the arm pits, the groin, and the liver and the spleen. By groin I am not refering to the testicles, but the crease from the hip bone to the pelvic bridge. This area is just loaded with nerves and large blood vains, and a strong bil jee to the groin can prove fatal. The throat is a good target, and it will drop an opponent instantly. But if you are not careful you can collapse the wind pipe and kill the person.
You really do not have to abuse your hands in order to train them to become serious weapons. Just consistancy in your training of them. Use loose sand.
The way you use the hand is to use the 2 middle fingers as the main spear point with the little finger and the first finger as a brace for the middle 2. And of course you know how to roll the hand at the wrist on impact.


Excellent Post. Do you have any pictures to illustrate some of what you are sharing concerning the spear hand formation. I am glad atleast one person on this forum has done some serious training!

[t_niehoff]

From my perspective, finger strikes are a really, really poor idea (and that's not what the biu jee is for IMO). And I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all anyone needs to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try throwing some finger strikes, providing, of course, that they don't mind breaking some of their fingers (because that's all that is going to happen). Not only is it extremely risky to use that "weapon" itself, the idea that you can hit pinpoint targets -- whether the eyes or, some silly "pressure point" -- is another really, really poor idea. Again, I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all they need to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try to pinpoint strike. They'll find that sort of fine motor skill simply doesn't work under the pressure of high intensity. Things like finger strikes to fine targets make great fantasy, but are so extremely low percentage and high risk in reality that trying them is essentially asking to fail.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

From my perspective, finger strikes are a really, really poor idea (and that's not what the biu jee is for IMO).

Agreed.



the idea that you can hit pinpoint targets -- whether the eyes or, some silly "pressure point" -- is another really, really poor idea. Again, I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all they need to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try to pinpoint strike. They'll find that sort of fine motor skill simply doesn't work under the pressure of high intensity.


...finger strikes to fine targets make great fantasy, but are so extremely low percentage and high risk in reality that trying them is essentially asking to fail.

In my opinion, the range of target specificity in all out combat varies from person to person. The average fighter can specify large targets such as the head or gut; a good fighter can aim a bit better, say to specific structures on the head (chin, Angle of jaw, nose.) I'm open to the possibility of someone being able to stay cool enough under combat pressure to get even more specific than that.

There is, however, a situational reality that trumps target specificity, and that is target availability (the areas where are they open/unguarded.) The average fighter aims for the openings. A good fighter can better pick a specific part of the opening to hit.

As far as pressure point attacks, most lists are really just the acupoints found around common targets. I believe that to even think about that level of target specificity without having proficiency in the other to levels is both useless and foolhardy. We're much better off learning to consistently hit open targets under pressure first, and working from there.

[t_niehoff]

In my opinion, the range of target specificity in all out combat varies from person to person. The average fighter can specify large targets such as the head or gut; a good fighter can aim a bit better, say to specific structures on the head (chin, Angle of jaw, nose.) I'm open to the possibility of someone being able to stay cool enough under combat pressure to get even more specific than that.


From my perspective, you are absolutely correct about it varying from person to person (based on skill level, experience, etc.). But it doesn't have anything to do with "staying cool"; when your body is moving/working at 100%, the fine motor skill goes out the window (actually, long before you get to 100%). For example, just significantly raising your heart rate (which comes with exertion) will significantly decrease your fine motor ability. And if you are fighting, your heart rate is going up!

I also agree that good fighters (those that have greater levels of skill) can generally strike more accurately, e.g., chin vs, head. However, when you look at their percentages of hitting specific targets (# times hitting the target/# total shots at target), you'll see that they frequently miss the target (yes, the strike to the chin knocked his opponent out, but how many times did he throw trying to hit the chin?).



There is, however, a situational reality that trumps target specificity, and that is target availability (the areas where are they open/unguarded.) The average fighter aims for the openings. A good fighter can better pick a specific part of the opening to hit.


Certainly you can't hit what isn't open.

A corrollary of this is that the better skilled your opponent, the less openings he gives you.



As far as pressure point attacks, most lists are really just the acupoints found around common targets. I believe that to even think about that level of target specificity without having proficiency in the other to levels is both useless and foolhardy. We're much better off learning to consistently hit open targets under pressure first, and working from there.

And those accupoints won't do much even if you do hit them.

My view is that if people actually got out and fought -- put in some significant time sparring at 100%, full-out intensity, particularly with some competent fighters -- they'd see this stuff for themselves.

[Yoshiyahu]

From my perspective, finger strikes are a really, really poor idea (and that's not what the biu jee is for IMO). And I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all anyone needs to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try throwing some finger strikes, providing, of course, that they don't mind breaking some of their fingers (because that's all that is going to happen). Not only is it extremely risky to use that "weapon" itself, the idea that you can hit pinpoint targets -- whether the eyes or, some silly "pressure point" -- is another really, really poor idea. Again, I don't care what stories people have heard or what they've been told; all they need to do to appreciate this is to spar full-contact (going all out, 100%) and try to pinpoint strike. They'll find that sort of fine motor skill simply doesn't work under the pressure of high intensity. Things like finger strikes to fine targets make great fantasy, but are so extremely low percentage and high risk in reality that trying them is essentially asking to fail.


You are correct people need to spar and also practice using finger techniques while sparring under pressure.

In my opinion just memorizing a pressure point chart is not enough...You must train your fingers to strike hard objects so they don't break when you strike a person. Like for instance a Heavy bag,Wall Bag,Bucket filled with steel shots and a Century Bob.

A century bob is a useful tool. I suggest getting circular stickers an placing them along the Conceptional Meridans points and Maybe the Governing Meridans points and practice striking them. First one may do it slowly to build up finger strength along with push ups on ones fingers and plenty of dit da jow. Then after time begin to strike the century bob harder and faster to you get to the point where you engage in a anarobic work out. Work on striking with accuracy. Also a small ball of foil on string or rubber bands can help with hand and eye cooridation and accuracy when striking with fingers.

Personally I think the phoneix Eye fist is a better weapon against pressure points than Bil Gee. But I am simply throwing the information out there.

But in short one should be able to strike the century bob with force with his fingers before trying it in sparring. But if you can develop your fingers to the point where you can strike a 100lb heavy bag with out jamming or breaking your fingers. Than and only then will striking those acupressure points do damage or atleast slow down an attacker. When your fingers are strong enough to pierce through a wooden board about half and inch thick then your able to do real harm.



"Lian quan bu lian gong, dao lao yi chang kong”

in Cantonese pronunciation “Lean khuen pat lean kung, tou lou yit cheong hoong”.

“If you only train form without training force, you will be futile even if you train you whole life.”

”Quan wei gong zi beng, gong wei quan zi bu”

(“Khuen wai kung zi phoon, kung wai khuen zi phoor”)

“Techniques are the base of force, force is the support of techniques.”

[Xiao3 Meng4]

When your fingers are strong enough to pierce through a wooden board about half and inch thick then your able to do real harm.


Hey!


Puff Puff Pass, dude... don't hog it all to yourself now. :D


One point I DO agree with you on is grip strength. The old Jar filled w/ heavy sh*t is always good, but there are modern methods that work as well.

Personally, if I'm going to be ramping up an attribute, I try to make it an attribute that is widely applicable in my life. For instance, grip strength is good in MA, but I actually practice and develop it more from giving Tui Na massage.

If you can develop an attribute through practical, multi-disciplinary applications, then it's an attribute worth developing.

Finger striking is very very very limited in application and attribute development. Not my cup of tea at all.

Also, with WCK having a core philosophy of optimization, it makes sense to me to be able to develop, practice and apply attributes across different fields.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Yosh-

please dont make assumptions about me thats kinda childish

your in STL im in springfield, we should meet up to discusses some WC sometime.

[Yoshiyahu]

Finger striking is very very very limited in application and attribute development. Not my cup of tea at all.QUOTE]

Wing Chun is a striking Art...Using the fingers is way to give you more extension. Fingers are longer than fist...


http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/jeeshin/pressure_points_dim_mak.html


Check this out dude???

[QUOTE]Centre line theory, one of our major principles, is not only used to gain the straight line attack and the shortest distance of travel, but also employed to protect our major striking targets along the centre line. Also, attacking along the centre line will automatically direct your strikes to your opponent's pressure points.

If your fingers are strengthen enough why not use them for multitasked along with piercing holes in things.


Biu Jee

- The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques.

- Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.

- The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power.

- The phoenix eye punch has no compassion.

- Fak Sau, Ginger Fist, and Guide Bridge; their movements are closely coordinated and hard to defend and nullify.

- Springy power and the extended arm are applied to close range.

- The situation is different when preventing from defeat in an emergency.

- The Biu Jee is not taught to outsiders.

- How many Sifu pass on the proper heritage?



http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Biu_Jee



Yosh-

please dont make assumptions about me thats kinda childish

your in STL im in springfield, we should meet up to discusses some WC sometime.

I'm Sorry Great Grand Master Chi Orb...Please next time your in St.louis look me up or call me...so we can chi sau. Let feel your Chi powers!

Katsu Jin Ken said:
on a second note, if i manifest my chi consiously i can direct it towards an oncoming advisery and blind him with a thunderous boom and tremendous flash of light...............my chi has transformed into a cylinderical form, imbedded a pull pin all i do is pull and throw. Some might say its a flash banger but to me its my chi





http://www.angelfire.com/pa/99vs66/BilGee.html

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1110354

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Let feel your Chi powers!

are you hittin on me? i dont switch hit bro sorry

[t_niehoff]

Anyone who believes the fingers can be used effectively to strike viatal points (in stand up) is living in fantasyland. As I said, all they need to do is spar at 100% and they'll see.

[Yoshiyahu]

are you hittin on me? i dont switch hit bro sorry

Oh I am sorry I didnt realize you were lesbian young lady...ha ha...

I thought you were the reincarnation of Yim Wing Chun...So sorry...

[couch]

..here we go again. Glad I came around to get in a good laugh.

[Yoshiyahu]

An Niehoff:

Well my friend Tell me this if you practice finger strikes consistently and also practice applying them consistently with several sparring partners over the course of year would it still be mere fantasyland? Or would it be something that is possible.

Also Wing Chun deals with Trapping too...Wouldnt it be safe to say that if your skilled at trapping an hitting one could get a good clean crisp hit with the fingers.

If you developed the ability to slash your fingers through a bag that standing still filled with sand and put a dent in wooden board. What if you back your opponent up against the wall, fence, cage or ropes and trap his arms while finger jabbing him at the same time?

Please share T. what about then?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Yosh-

u have any pics of vids or you, your sifu, or classmates practicing wc?

who is your instructor again? My sigung knows some wc guys in and around stl he might know yours.

i think eye pokes can be very effective, as for actually hitting pressure points not so much imo, its hard enough to hit someones head thats moving dancin around cant imagine tryin to hit a very small part of someones torso. just not an aspect thats practical to me

[anerlich]

I've seen young pups that think they can include finger strikes in sparring. Probably once a year or so.

No one ever gets any body damage, let alone suffer Dim Mak effects, but someone always gets poked in the eye in the first couple of minutes and has to stop, even if they are both trying not to hit each other.

Then a more senior student will explain why sparring like that is a really stupid idea, though by that time the explanation is usually redundant.

[Wayfaring]

BJ Penn has th3 d3@dly Dim Mak thumb to the eye strikes.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I can see where a person would think it is fantasy, but it is really not. Bil Gee was not taught to just anyone. It requires a lot of discipline, and a lot of training. The hands are the weakest part of the body. I can control anyone if I can get hold of just one of his hands. It can be balled up and used as a club, and if you train it right and with conviction you can develop it into a real weapon. The use of the hand must be specialized in that manner, so that it can be utilyzed for that purpose. As I stated in an earlier post that when you first start to train the hands they will lack the stiffness and stability to make a good weapon. The fingers will try to go out in just about every direction for a while. Eventually the hand develops the stability to remain stiff and follow through. You can then move to harder surfaces with less give. You would be completely surprised at just how hard your hands can get, and even without causing injury to them.
I would never spar anyone in such a manner. If the person was a friend or training associate I would not be able to justify such a thing. It would be criminal, and show total disrespect for his well being. That is why the dummy and the pads. As I felt that my hands were able to handle the sand well, I graduated to small pea gravel. I went through the same thing with it as with the sand. But it makes the hands really stiff and strong. I did this because even though I worked as a printer for most of my life, I made a good part of my living by the use of my fighting skills. Fighting skills are greatly enhanced if you can develop your hands into strong weapons.

[Kansuke]

I can control anyone if I can get hold of just one of his hands.




LOL! Oh really?

[couch]

I can see where a person would think it is fantasy, but it is really not. Bil Gee was not taught to just anyone. It requires a lot of discipline, and a lot of training. The hands are the weakest part of the body. I can control anyone if I can get hold of just one of his hands. It can be balled up and used as a club, and if you train it right and with conviction you can develop it into a real weapon. The use of the hand must be specialized in that manner, so that it can be utilyzed for that purpose. As I stated in an earlier post that when you first start to train the hands they will lack the stiffness and stability to make a good weapon. The fingers will try to go out in just about every direction for a while. Eventually the hand develops the stability to remain stiff and follow through. You can then move to harder surfaces with less give. You would be completely surprised at just how hard your hands can get, and even without causing injury to them.
I would never spar anyone in such a manner. If the person was a friend or training associate I would not be able to justify such a thing. It would be criminal, and show total disrespect for his well being. That is why the dummy and the pads. As I felt that my hands were able to handle the sand well, I graduated to small pea gravel. I went through the same thing with it as with the sand. But it makes the hands really stiff and strong. I did this because even though I worked as a printer for most of my life, I made a good part of my living by the use of my fighting skills. Fighting skills are greatly enhanced if you can develop your hands into strong weapons.

Biu Jee is NOT for finger strikes. It is for recovery when your centreline tactics have been comprised.

Some people practice the beginning of BJ with finger strikes. IMO, it's about covering up the centre with small movements driven by the elbow - but blocking with the wrist. This movement also comes up at the beginning of the 5th section of the dummy (Moy Yat lineage).

It's not about hitting with the ends of my fingers. This is silly.

Best.

[Lee Chiang Po]

LOL! Oh really?

As funny as it might now seem, If I were to get hold of one of your hands, I would take your lunch money too. I have 4 degrees of black belt for Japanese Jujitsu, and I have developed great skill in applying wrist locks. I am only 5'4" tall, and large men seem to be very confident when they can see across the top of my head. But that in itself has always given me the advantage over them because they would not expect that I could take possession of them so completely.

[Lee Chiang Po]

> Biu Jee is NOT for finger strikes. It is for recovery when your centreline tactics have been comprised.

Some people practice the beginning of BJ with finger strikes. IMO, it's about covering up the centre with small movements driven by the elbow - but blocking with the wrist. This movement also comes up at the beginning of the 5th section of the dummy (Moy Yat lineage).

It's not about hitting with the ends of my fingers. This is silly.

Best.<

I agree that it is not about finger strikes, but finger strikes are a part of the Bil Gee system. And in order to apply them in a meaningful manner, they do need to be developed just like striking with the fist against firm surfaces. And to be sure, delivered against the throat or eyes, and even against some of the other more delicate areas of the body, they can be very injurous to an opponent. More so than the fist. Ignoring the finger strikes or deleting them from your training is probably a mistake. It is part of the Bil Gee form for a good reason, and the founders must have felt that it was a valuable part of the system.
On the other hand, I find the finger strikes to be well documented in the first part of the Bil Gee form. I can think of nothing that I would use such a wrist block or cover up for. This has to be a simple difference in lineage maybe? I have to say that I am not acquainted with very many WC people, but of those that I am acquainted with, the Bil Gee hands were developed into strong stabbing weapons. Developed also is the grip of the fingers of both hands. This is for grabbing tender flesh or tearing off of some extremeties. Particularly around the face and head. The grip is also good for when you pull an opponent into you and off his balance. An example of this is that rather than having to wrap the hand around an arm or wrist in order to jerk him off balance, you simply grag the flesh of the arm and jerk. Or any fleshy surface that you can touch. It is called the hand dragon, or dragon hand. I never did quite understand that part of it.

[Lee Chiang Po]

For anyone that does not fully understand the application of the Bil Gee finger strikes, I will give you a description of how I do it.
The first finger is not based. Like the thumb, it is not in alignment with the forearm. The 2 middle fingers are, and the little finger is way too short to apply. It and the first finger can then be used to brace the center 2 fingers. The hand is not held straight and rigid as this would make the contact point the center finger tip. It will break if jammed back with no place to go. The 2 center fingers are not even. Still the middle finger is longer. You can hold the hand straight, then sort of angle the fingers toward the little fingers direction. Until the 2 middle fingers are near even. This gives you a supported striking point. Also, the slight curve or angle of the fingers will cause the hand to collapse to the side if really strong resistance is met. If you stab into a fleshy part of the body, the hand being well developed for the purpose, will press right on into the soft tissue until it strikes bone or something, then will break over rather than jamming the fingers back into the hand. And if you have used the sand and pea gravel methods of developing the hand for this purpose, you can strike with tremendous force without self injury. However, there is always a chance of injuring ones self. But that can happen with a fist strike or even an elbow strike.

[Kansuke]

LOL! Oh really?

As funny as it might now seem, If I were to get hold of one of your hands, I would take your lunch money too.



I'm sure you think so. :rolleyes:

[Firehawk4]

What is the diference between a Spearhand and the Wing Chun Bil Jee Spearing Fingers ? What I mean is other Kung Fu styles use the Spearhand but they form it differently .

[Hendrik]

What is the diference between a Spearhand and the Wing Chun Bil Jee Spearing Fingers ? What I mean is other Kung Fu styles use the Spearhand but they form it differently .



Good question,

similary, what is the different with Tan sau...?

[Lee Chiang Po]

What is the diference between a Spearhand and the Wing Chun Bil Jee Spearing Fingers ? What I mean is other Kung Fu styles use the Spearhand but they form it differently .

I have seen it done in Karate too. But again it looked different to me. I am not familiar with the methods of other styles. I have learned to do it different ways though, and at least one other way works well to avoid finger injury. It does not apply as much power.
I learned it from a Japanese man that taught me Jujitsu. The hand weapons are part of the traditional Jujitsu system too. I would draw the hand into a sort of cup position so that the fingers would be fairly even at the tips. The 3 longest fingers. I would strike sort of like a large bird pecking, and curl the fingers into the target. The hand would strike like a palm strike and on contact would roll into a finger stab. It is very effective, but it is not even close to the WC Bil Gee strikes.
As for Tan Sao, I have not actually seen it applied outside of WC. I would imagine that should it be a part of another system that it might differ in centerline application. Tan Sao always applies on center line. You have to shift or turn slightly to apply it on center line sometimes, but it gives you more power in order to deflect a strong fist attack as well as taking you out of the direct line of fire. To me, anything outside of that is not really Tan Sao.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yosh-

u have any pics of vids or you, your sifu, or classmates practicing wc?

who is your instructor again? My sigung knows some wc guys in and around stl he might know yours.

I think eye pokes can be very effective, as for actually hitting pressure points not so much imo, its hard enough to hit someones head thats moving dancin around cant imagine tryin to hit a very small part of someones torso. just not an aspect thats practical to me

No pics. My Sifu is Woody. But as for finger pokes. No pokes don't work...But a well conditioned hung ga fighter who can poke his fingers through sand bags can do damage to your body. As for pressure point strikes. One should be able to strike ones fingers against Wood,Bricks and then stones with out damaging your finger. If you can peirce through wood you can hurt someone by striking their centerline on their chest or stomach or striking the neck.

But your right a moving opponent would present a diffcult target.

Unless he keeps coming in and moving forward. Or you have his hands trapped an ready for a strike. Also if you have him corner against a wall or fence so he can not move back an trap his hands an strike deep into his ribs,stomach,abs,chest,under the nipple or throat...

But please elaborate what you mean by hitting a very small part of someones torso? Do you mean accuracy?

How to Develop Bil Gee Kung....Conditioning Fingers to be Weapons

*Get a Medium size cloth bag and fill it with beans...finger strike it for one year then add sand. Finger strike the sand bag every other day until you can pierce your fingers through it then add Rocks...then steal shots or shot gun BB's

**Also get a large pot that both hands can fit in at the same time. Start with Rice. Practice piercing the rice with both hands then grab the rice and squeeze hard and withdraw the hands an let go of the rice. Do this for a year. Then move to beans,then gravel then steel shots.

~Making Pressure Point Striking as Second Nature~

Once you have done both above conditioning methods for like three to five years...Then get a Wooden Trunk and make a Torso with groin and head with neck. Use colorful stickers or paint circles of red on pressure points found on the conceptual meridan line. Color the Conceptual meridan line yellow. Practice hitting the stickers or red dots in a room full of light over and over again. Also do so until you get comfortable with doing it with out looking. Similair how you can type on the computer with out looking down. When you hit the points with out looking. Then start dimming the lights. An keep hitting the points. Until you can hit the points in complete darkness. If you use paint keep striking the wooden body pressure points until the dots turn white.

Also until the five year point one can buy Century Bob with a groin. An place Round Stickers on all the Pressure points found on meridan line. Practice first with alot light until you memorize an can strike with out looking then dim the lights until you get to the point you can strike the points in complete darkness. Mastery level is Blindfolded. The Century Bob is soft enough you can start earlier. But the Wooden Trunk should be done once you have mastered finger conditioning from Sand Bag and Striking the Pot or Bucket with gravel or loose sand. Internal Methods should accompany these External practices.

~Internal Methods~

1.Five Elders Dit Da Jow before and after practice. (Internal Use)

2.Brightening Eyes concotion for the eyes.

3.Also practice striking the at a piece of paper until you can move it with your fingers.
(Start at one foot distance, As you acheive movement increase distance Max at 3 feet).

4.Practice striking a Candle flame putting the flame out(One foot to three feet distance).

5.Practice Chi Kung Daily

6.Practice standing in YGKYM with fingers straight outfor five to ten minutes daily.

7.Later Practice putting out the candle flame with an obstruction infront of it, an increase the distance progressively. (First with a sheet of paper, then cardboard then wooden sheet then metal sheet).


Note: Some people say distance the distance for putting out the flame or striking the paper should be from a foot to six feet. Which is fine. But making a paper sway from six feet or putting out a candle at six feet may take you ten years.


***Lee Chaing Po

Excellent advice...You are true Wing Chun artist I feel I can learn alot from you...

1.As I felt that my hands were able to handle the sand well, I graduated to small pea gravel. I went through the same thing with it as with the sand. But it makes the hands really stiff and strong.

2.I agree that it is not about finger strikes, but finger strikes are a part of the Bil Gee system.And in order to apply them in a meaningful manner, they do need to be developed just like striking with the fist against firm surfaces. And to be sure, delivered against the throat or eyes, and even against some of the other more delicate areas of the body, they can be very injurous to an opponent.

3.Ignoring the finger strikes or deleting them from your training is probably a mistake. It is part of the Bil Gee form for a good reason, and the founders must have felt that it was a valuable part of the system.

4.If you stab into a fleshy part of the body, the hand being well developed for the purpose, will press right on into the soft tissue until it strikes bone or something, then will break over rather than jamming the fingers back into the hand. And if you have used the sand and pea gravel methods of developing the hand for this purpose, you can strike with tremendous force without self injury. However, there is always a chance of injuring ones self. But that can happen with a fist strike or even an elbow strike.


Another Qoute:

Yet, whether you prefer strikes or grappling, strength and speed are essential. "I will always point out," says Lam, "it is not 'Death Touch.' It is 'Death Strike.' You need the power."

Attaining the necessary power and the precision to apply it requires years of training. In Lam's words, "Knowing the point, finding it, and applying the technique are all different things." First, time is spent learning to direct energy to the hands and focus this energy in the fingertips. Next, the student practices striking at pressure points on a dummy until he can strike them accurately and without hesitation. Then the dummy is moved, and the student must follow. When the student can follow a moving target, clothing is added to further obscure the targets.

This process, as described by Lam, can take a decade of intense training to master. In fact, according to Lam, in the old days sifus would not even speak of such techniques. Today, they are much more openly discussed--not because they are any less deadly, but because it is growing more difficult to find, and commit to, the level of training necessary to master this dangerous technique. http://home.pacbell.net/pbwriter/writing/pressure.html

[m1k3]

Yoshiyahu,

Why would you want to spend years jamming your fingers into sand and gravel and trees?

For all of you who practice Dim Mak, death strikes or meridian strikes, have YOU ever seen it work on anyone who is not either a student or a believer of its effectiveness? Have YOU ever seen it work on a resisting opponent who was not a practitioner of TCMA?

There are a lot of stories out there, how about a little proof. :confused:

As for self defense, avoid, disengage and escape are my primary goals.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[Yoshiyahu]

I personally don't believe in the waving of your hand to cause someone to fall out. I believe with your Fist, Palm, Ridgehand or finger jab with enough force you can injure someone. As for dim mak. I really don't like the word. But many of the so called pressure points are mere weak points of the body. Like your diaphram or windpipe and knock out points on the face. But the two components that are needed an well conditioned fist or palm and enough power to hurt someone. As for seeing these meridan strikes in action. If you ever saw Mike Tyson hit someone in the body an cause them to fall or hit them in the chin or nose an knocked them out. You have saw a meridan strike. Its not all mystical like some people imagine. As for years of practice. Thats what we should all do. Practice Punches,Palm strikes, finger strikes kicks sil lim tao, wooden dummy, punching bag drills and strength and conditioning drills for years. We should practice power and sensitivity for years. Wing Chun is hard work An if you don't work hard. The second you come up against fighter who does work hard your dead meat. I agree advoidance, disengagements and escaping are great goals. But sometimes the safest place to be is in the lions den. Wing Chun is close combat style. or infighting system. Wing Chun is explosive and agreesive. Its not really about resisting force or running away from it. its about dissolving force or deflecting it away from you. Its about marching across the bridge and destroying the hour glass or the castle. Wing Chun to me is a system that is meant to totally destroy your opponent quickly with out a chance for them to defend, counter or evade once. Once you make contact to their bridge instantly you should execute three moves at once to trap and an attack. My Primary Goals is to develop my Wing Chun to a point to stop a fight quickl or make my opponent loose the desire to fight. Those are my primary goals. To totally destroy my opponent quickly to where he can not fight me or to make him loose heart and desire to take flight. I am not into turning my back to get something thrown at the back of my head when I am trying to run away. Or Making a mistake when I am trying to run an end up in a unfavorable posistion.

AS for resisting opponents Some pressure point strikes or manipulation I have used on resistanting opponents. But not the kind that can kill or maime. I have not developed that sort of power as of yet. But as for practicing on someone. Thats totally out of the question. Now pressure point is also found in Jiujitsu with joint manipulation. I have done things like that with a resistance opponent an yes it works. But the main thing is your opponent hands has to be trapped first then the lock can be applied. Same with striking the neck with the fingers. Which I can do easily.
Yoshiyahu,

Why would you want to spend years jamming your fingers into sand and gravel and trees?

For all of you who practice Dim Mak, death strikes or meridian strikes, have YOU ever seen it work on anyone who is not either a student or a believer of its effectiveness? Have YOU ever seen it work on a resisting opponent who was not a practitioner of TCMA?

There are a lot of stories out there, how about a little proof. :confused:

As for self defense, avoid, disengage and escape are my primary goals.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[m1k3]

I personally don't believe in the waving of your hand to cause someone to fall out. I believe with your Fist, Palm, Ridgehand or finger jab with enough force you can injure someone. As for dim mak. I really don't like the word. But many of the so called pressure points are mere weak points of the body. Like your diaphram or windpipe and knock out points on the face. But the two components that are needed an well conditioned fist or palm and enough power to hurt someone. As for seeing these meridan strikes in action. If you ever saw Mike Tyson hit someone in the body an cause them to fall or hit them in the chin or nose an knocked them out. You have saw a meridan strike. Its not all mystical like some people imagine.


This definition makes sense. There are places are more venerable to strikes that others. The problem is landing a clean strike against such a target when your opponent is fighting back. Using Mike Tyson as an example, and I am a boxing fan, is that I never saw him knock someone out with the first punch he threw or the even the first punch that landed. So, while not a bad strategy it probably should not be considered a high probability response.


As for years of practice. Thats what we should all do. Practice Punches,Palm strikes, finger strikes kicks sil lim tao, wooden dummy, punching bag drills and strength and conditioning drills for years. We should practice power and sensitivity for years. Wing Chun is hard work An if you don't work hard. The second you come up against fighter who does work hard your dead meat.


True for the most part, but again it depends on what you train for. Based on this I assume you are training to fight other trained fighters. Do you compete in MMA, Lei Tai or other such events?



I agree advoidance, disengagements and escaping are great goals. But sometimes the safest place to be is in the lions den. Wing Chun is close combat style. or infighting system. Wing Chun is explosive and agreesive. Its not really about resisting force or running away from it. its about dissolving force or deflecting it away from you. Its about marching across the bridge and destroying the hour glass or the castle. Wing Chun to me is a system that is meant to totally destroy your opponent quickly with out a chance for them to defend, counter or evade once. Once you make contact to their bridge instantly you should execute three moves at once to trap and an attack. My Primary Goals is to develop my Wing Chun to a point to stop a fight quickl or make my opponent loose the desire to fight. Those are my primary goals. To totally destroy my opponent quickly to where he can not fight me or to make him loose heart and desire to take flight. I am not into turning my back to get something thrown at the back of my head when I am trying to run away. Or Making a mistake when I am trying to run an end up in a unfavorable posistion.


Dude, this is the heart of FBSD (Fantasy Based Self Defense), to totally overwhelm your opponent before he can do anything to harm you.

There are several problems with this.

One is that people can take a tremendous amount of damage and keep on fighting. I was watching a show the other night when a person gets gut shot by a LEO (it was his car camera) and still manages to engage him in hand to hand combat. The bad guy was still on his feet when backup arrived.

Two, people don’t always play fair. You may launch your devastating attack across your bridge only to find that you have been cut or stabbed without even knowing that he had a knife. You may not know that you are even in a fight until you have been hit, kicked, struck with a blunt object or taken to the ground.

Three, you are successful and launch a devastating attack, strike him in the throat knocking him out, he falls and hits his head and suffers brain damage. You are now truly scr3wed! You face the possibility of jail time, years of court expense and the possibility of being sued for the damages you caused in your legally irresponsible use of excessive force.

Real self defense is based on avoiding bad situations. If they can’t be avoided disengage as quickly as possible and removing yourself from future contact. Any of the macho posturing that you stated above is not good self defense, but it is a good way to mess up your life big time no matter if you win or lose the fight.

[Vajramusti]

Jamming your fingers into rocks, gravel, sand and wood is not good for you on the long run and not necessary with good wing chun. IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Jamming your fingers into rocks, gravel, sand and wood is not good for you on the long run and not necessary with good wing chun. IMO.

joy chaudhuri

For the Long run...One should accompany thrusting fingers along with Chi Kung. Internal Medicine for the eyes and external medicine for hands to promote healing and proper blood flow and chi circulation...

MIK23 great points let me highlight a few of them!


The problem is landing a clean strike against such a target when your opponent is fighting back.

I have stated before ways to increase your accuracy by use of dummy with red dots illustrating the pressure points. When you can strike the dummy with out looking an even strike the spots in a dark room then your accuracy will be good enough to strike an moving opponent. Although the best the time to strike these pressure points would be when you have both hands of your opponent pinned or trapped an you still have a free hand to strike with. Or Tan Da or Pak Da strikes would work well with this. Because one hand intercepts or bridges while the other hand attacks the opening. Chi Sau is designed to developed sensitivity so one can feel for openings. You won't always get a clean hit with your punches either. The key is continous flow along with attacking and defending relentlessly. But of course I don't think that you will knock someone out or damage them severly with the first Bil Gee contact. It make take several hits to the throat or kidneys or diapram to stop your assailant.


Based on this I assume you are training to fight other trained fighters. Do you compete in MMA, Lei Tai or other such events?


No, I have not competed in MMA. But with the use of Gloves many techniques will be hindered. Plus MMA is a competiton many techniques need not be used there. I suggest building up punching power and kicking power for MMA along with developing techniques and mastery escaping takedowns and possible joint locks. If I was competing in the MMA this would be focus. But what I spoke of as for training has to do with conditioning for regual street fighters as well. You want to have an edge an the ability to do damage quickly against untrained and trained figthers you may encounter on the street. If you have exceptional skill but no power you lack ability to defend against well conditioned and strong fighter. Especially when fighting someone from the same style.


Two, people don’t always play fair. You may launch your devastating attack across your bridge only to find that you have been cut or stabbed without even knowing that he had a knife. You may not know that you are even in a fight until you have been hit, kicked, struck with a blunt object or taken to the ground.


This sorta of case happens rarely maybe when some is attempting to rob you. But in most cases you see your assailant coming. They jump out on you an try to take you by surprise then you have seconds to react. The good thing about WC is it is designed for inclose fighting an makes use of inch power. When you are in fight and in up getting stabed or hit with a blunt object an your still still standing. Then you have legal precendence to be mericiless and use deadly force. Especially if you were cut or stabbed an still able to fight due to adrenaline. Who says anything about playing fair. You dont play with real fights. If you can not run I suggest trying to end the fight with extreme force.


Three, you are successful and launch a devastating attack, strike him in the throat knocking him out, he falls and hits his head and suffers brain damage.

This can happen in fight when you try to push your assailant, Punch him, Get out his grab or even if you kick him an he looses his balance an falls an hits his head. For real even if you try to run away an are struggling with three men who are holding you trying to bring you to ground if one of them falls an hits their head an dies you can still be liable. If you put someone in submission hold an they pass out the lack of oxygen to the brain affects them in away that causes severe damage they could die an you can get in trouble. Every time you fight you could die to. If you run away an slip an fall on a nail or hit your head on fence or the concrete or rock when your trying to escape you could die.

I agree about self Defense. But I am speaking of using Wing Chun for combat not self defense. If i want to learn self defense I think i might take up some Judo or Jiujitsu class. But I am speaking about combat right now. Not self defense. Wing Chun is an offensive art like Hung Gar and Eagle claw. They are about self defense. They are about combat. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

[m1k3]

I agree about self Defense. But I am speaking of using Wing Chun for combat not self defense. If i want to learn self defense I think i might take up some Judo or Jiujitsu class. But I am speaking about combat right now. Not self defense. Wing Chun is an offensive art like Hung Gar and Eagle claw. They are about self defense. They are about combat. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

:eek::eek::eek:


You live in St Louis! No matter how bad crime may be there it is no way even close to being combat! You are in combat when you are serving in Iraq or Afghanistan or someplace like that. Are you dealing with mortars and RPGs and roadside explosive devices and every one over the age of 12 carrying an AK-47?

Combat is what the military engages in, not someone in the middle of the heartland of the US.

What you are leaning is self defense. It is governed by criminal and civil law, not the UCMJ.

Have you even served in the military?

IMO you have lost whatever cred you may have had in this forum spouting BS like that.



Whew, I feel better now. That "I'm training for combat" BS just really, really p1sses me off. I think it does a real disservice to all those people who do serve and have served in the military and have experienced real combat up close and personal.

BTW, I have trained Wing Chun, as well as wrestling, BJJ and boxing. I also spent 3 years in the Marine Corps.

[Hendrik]

Wing Chun is close combat style. or infighting system. Wing Chun is explosive and agreesive. Its not really about resisting force or running away from it. its about dissolving force or deflecting it away from you. Its about marching across the bridge and destroying the hour glass or the castle. Wing Chun to me is a system that is meant to totally destroy your opponent quickly with out a chance for them to defend, counter or evade once.

until you can clearly describe how it is done. It is the biggest fantasy.

[Yoshiyahu]

I could care less about Cred on a forum my friend. i come here to listen others experience and draw from them as well as share some of my own. I also enjoy hearing others theories and training methods.


But as for crime an such. What is combat to you? does combat have to be military?


Dictionary definition

1com·bat
Pronunciation: \ˈkäm-ˌbat\
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French, from combatre to attack, fight, from Vulgar Latin *combattere, from Latin com- + battuere to beat
Date: 1546
1 : a fight or contest between individuals or groups
2 : conflict, controversy
3 : active fighting in a war : action <casualties suffered in combat>


Main Entry: 2com·bat
Pronunciation: \kəm-ˈbat, ˈkäm-ˌ\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): com·bat·ed or com·bat·ted; com·bat·ing or com·bat·ting
Date: 1564
intransitive verb
: to engage in combat : fight
transitive verb
1: to fight with : battle
2: to struggle against ; especially : to strive to reduce or eliminate <combat pollution>
synonyms see oppose


Although war is apart of combat...War is not the only time your engage in combat. Anytime your in a street fight you are engaged in hand to hand combat. A fight is combat. When i think of self defense I think of neutralizing an opponent with out actually having to hurt them badly. Like Aikido or Tai Chi.

If I peed you off please by all means meet me in St.louie. An show me your combat. Please lets touch hands. Only then can my creditability be tested.


:eek::eek::eek:


You live in St Louis! No matter how bad crime may be there it is no way even close to being combat! You are in combat when you are serving in Iraq or Afghanistan or someplace like that. Are you dealing with mortars and RPGs and roadside explosive devices and every one over the age of 12 carrying an AK-47?

Combat is what the military engages in, not someone in the middle of the heartland of the US.

What you are leaning is self defense. It is governed by criminal and civil law, not the UCMJ.

Have you even served in the military?

IMO you have lost whatever cred you may have had in this forum spouting BS like that.



Whew, I feel better now. That "I'm training for combat" BS just really, really p1sses me off. I think it does a real disservice to all those people who do serve and have served in the military and have experienced real combat up close and personal.

BTW, I have trained Wing Chun, as well as wrestling, BJJ and boxing. I also spent 3 years in the Marine Corps.

[m1k3]

Looks like I touched a nerve there.

First of all, this isn't about me. I have never been in combat and never claimed to have been in combat. It is about you, and many others like you, co opting military terms to make themselves seem more important.

IMO, what you do and what you learn is not combat or even combat relevant. It the same as when they refer to the fighters on the UFC as warriors. Sorry but they're not. They are fighters, very good ones, very dedicated ones but not warriors.

They are many areas of civilian life that like to use military terminology. It give a certain aura of might and bravery to things that are otherwise pretty mundane. These words even become common in their usage. But that doesn't make it so. The war on drugs is not a war, fighting in the street is not combat and those that fight in the ring or octagon are not warriors.

Whether you like it or not, whether it offends you or not, it doesn't matter. Those people in the military are the warriors who are truly engaged in combat.

The fact that you like to call what you do combat merely cheapens the word in respect to those warriors. There is a BIG difference between what they do and what you do.

The fact that you were offended by that only goes to show how little you know about the gap between what they do and what you do. Your whining about it merely belittles you and dishonors them.

Grow up.

[Kansuke]

I could care less about Cred on a forum my friend.



You've made that perfectly clear by now.

[Kansuke]

Whew, I feel better now. That "I'm training for combat" BS just really, really p1sses me off. I think it does a real disservice to all those people who do serve and have served in the military and have experienced real combat up close and personal.

BTW, I have trained Wing Chun, as well as wrestling, BJJ and boxing. I also spent 3 years in the Marine Corps.




Well said, and thank you for your service.

[Yoshiyahu]

Frankly I have negative view on the quasi military or armed forces. Especially those who stem from a history of Genocide of Natives and Aboriginals to take over an colonize a land that they are not indigenious of. But this is my opinion. True the war against other people, religions, creeds, nations and ethnic groups. They wipe out whole populations with Chemical and Biological warfare and those left after the fall out or shot in the head. But still if you read the definition of Combat it also means fighting. Does it not.

As for TKD olympics and mma fighters. I can agree that they are at best competiting. Its a competition. So they are competitors who seek victory through fighting.


But a fight for your man hood, livelyhood, property, life, children or family is different than fighting in a ring.

Its also way different than fighting a war that some aristocrats decide to wage because they are greedy for land, oil or slaves(cheap labor).

So as for a nerve being struck. No not actually. What gets on my nerves is people who always dismiss what they do not understand. Its like religion. No one has ever seen the face of the Most High. But many of you believe their is intelligent being out there somewhere don't you?


Looks like I touched a nerve there.

First of all, this isn't about me. I have never been in combat and never claimed to have been in combat. It is about you, and many others like you, co opting military terms to make themselves seem more important.

IMO, what you do and what you learn is not combat or even combat relevant. It the same as when they refer to the fighters on the UFC as warriors. Sorry but they're not. They are fighters, very good ones, very dedicated ones but not warriors.

They are many areas of civilian life that like to use military terminology. It give a certain aura of might and bravery to things that are otherwise pretty mundane. These words even become common in their usage. But that doesn't make it so. The war on drugs is not a war, fighting in the street is not combat and those that fight in the ring or octagon are not warriors.

Whether you like it or not, whether it offends you or not, it doesn't matter. Those people in the military are the warriors who are truly engaged in combat.

The fact that you like to call what you do combat merely cheapens the word in respect to those warriors. There is a BIG difference between what they do and what you do.

The fact that you were offended by that only goes to show how little you know about the gap between what they do and what you do. Your whining about it merely belittles you and dishonors them.

As for offense I think your the one offended:


Whew, I feel better now. That "I'm training for combat" BS just really, really p1sses me off. I think it does a real disservice to all those people who do serve and have served in the military and have experienced real combat up close and personal.

Grow up.

[Mr Punch]

English isn't your first language is it Yoshiyahu? (That's not being facetious - it's an honest question) The definitions of combat that you've posted prove that in the vast majority of cases the word combat is used for military combat, and after that for combating social problems etc. If I have a street fight, I don't call it combat.

The fact that the title of this thread is highly irrelevant or at least over-generalized for the subject matter is neither here nor there, as you did state quite clearly in the first post what you were talking about so quite why suddenly everyone's jumping on you for the use of 'combat' I don't know.


Frankly I have negative view on the quasi military or armed forces. Especially those who stem from a history of Genocide of Natives and Aboriginals to take over an colonize a land that they are not indigenious of...Your views on the military in this context are fairly naïve and contemptible… but most of us have got over them by the end of high school. You are confusing the actions and motives of the ruling upper classes with those of the rank and file. And even if that were not simplistic enough you are ignoring that

a) EVERY culture except perhaps a couple of small remote tribes has a history of colonialism, genocide and brutality,

b) even some of the ruling classes of even the most contemptible regimes have noble (if misguided motives) – note for example the use of the British navy to try and stamp out slaving (which the UK abolished before any other modern country) at great expense to the country’s coffers and sovereignty,

and c) as Orwell had it:
" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. " Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with the ruling classes motives or not, the existence and sometime use of military force is what maintains our freedom.

And finally d) I know that while some members of my country’s army do some things I’m not happy with, none of them committed any genocide against Australian, American, African, Polynesian or any other aborigines… you’re talking about a different age, different checks and balances and different rules of engagement.

[Mr Punch]

Question. With all the threats that may befall you in dark alley or getting jumped by thugs while walking to your car in parking garage or parking lot. I was woundering what you guys think of fingers conditioning to make your Bil Gee strikes more pliable and able to penetrate an send Chi to a given pressure point on the center line?Not much. I don't have the time, and feel it's not necessary when a relatively unconditioned fist or palm will do just as well in knocking someobody out or otherwise stopping them. The chi point is moot. I’m agnostic about chi for those kind of powers in general, but even if I weren’t, from what people tell me who go for that kind of stuff, it is all about improving flow of energetics, something which I can’t see rigidly jamming your hands into hard surfaces really achieving. Add to the this the potential for hand damage and the obvious point of still having to choose your targets more carefully than with a fist/palm and it doesn’t seem worth it other than out of historical/scientific experiment.

By the way, in my line anyway, Biu Jee has more to do with the energy in the arm than the action of the fingers... we practice biu jee by practising striking through and around the opponent's arm using, well, biu jee, rather than worrying about the finger strike. If you get that it's icing, just like trapping.

[Mr Punch]

I have stated before ways to increase your accuracy by use of dummy with red dots illustrating the pressure points. When you can strike the dummy with out looking an even strike the spots in a dark room then your accuracy will be good enough to strike an moving opponent.Total bollocks alert. Practising in light or dark on a motionless object will improve your accuracy and ability to hit motionless objects in the light or dark. If you have someone dress up in full body armour and paint dots on their vital points and try and hit them while they're hitting you you're getting closer, although of course many of these vital points are between the armour!

Have you tried nailing the vital point on the point of the chin when they’re moving around and trying to punch you? Try it with a palm or punch first and see if you can knock them out. Then work your way up to finger jabbing smaller more covered spots…

OK, now I’m being facetious! :p :D

[m1k3]

The fact that the title of this thread is highly irrelevant or at least over-generalized for the subject matter is neither here nor there, as you did state quite clearly in the first post what you were talking about so quite why suddenly everyone's jumping on you for the use of 'combat' I don't know.



It was really only me that jumped on him. Its a pet peeve of mine and I clearly stated in the post that it was a rant.

However, I do feel that claiming what we do as martial artists as "combat" is way off target and devalues the meaning of the word. There are those who know the difference between "martial arts combat" and combat on the battlefield and that difference is huge.

Just in case anyone is interested.

[golgo]

Sounds like you a bashing the guy over semantics.

[Mr Punch]

It was really only me that jumped on him. Its a pet peeve of mine and I clearly stated in the post that it was a rant.

However, I do feel that claiming what we do as martial artists as "combat" is way off target and devalues the meaning of the word. There are those who know the difference between "martial arts combat" and combat on the battlefield and that difference is huge.

Just in case anyone is interested.
Don't get me wrong: I agree with you completely... just didn't know how come it came up on page 3/4.

And yes, Golgo, when semantics means the difference between language that everybody understands to mean one thing and something that means something else to someone else, it's pretty ****ing important.

[m1k3]

Don't get me wrong: I agree with you completely... just didn't know how come it came up on page 3/4.

And yes, Golgo, when semantics means the difference between language that everybody understands to mean one thing and something that means something else to someone else, it's pretty ****ing important.

We got there when he made this statement:


I agree about self Defense. But I am speaking of using Wing Chun for combat not self defense. If i want to learn self defense I think i might take up some Judo or Jiujitsu class. But I am speaking about combat right now. Not self defense. Wing Chun is an offensive art like Hung Gar and Eagle claw. They are about self defense. They are about combat. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.


Up to then the use of the word combat didn't bother me but when he said he didn't train for self defense but for "COMBAT"....well, you get point. I went into rant mode.

So there is the whole ugly story.

And no, I'm not sorry I did it, so there! :p

[golgo]

Don't get me wrong: I agree with you completely... just didn't know how come it came up on page 3/4.

And yes, Golgo, when semantics means the difference between language that everybody understands to mean one thing and something that means something else to someone else, it's pretty ****ing important.

OK. Sorry. Please feel free to discredit anything that ever comes out of his mouth, due to the fact that you disagree over the distinction between "combat" and "self defense."

I forgot that this board was Bullshido-lite: Where civil discussions go to die.

[m1k3]

OK. Sorry. Please feel free to discredit anything that ever comes out of his mouth, due to the fact that you disagree over the distinction between "combat" and "self defense."

I forgot that this board was Bullshido-lite: Where civil discussions go to die.

You see, he made the distinction between them. Up until then I was fine and the discussion was civil.

[Yoshiyahu]

What does Self Defense mean in your opinion?



We got there when he made this statement:



Up to then the use of the word combat didn't bother me but when he said he didn't train for self defense but for "COMBAT"....well, you get point. I went into rant mode.

So there is the whole ugly story.

And no, I'm not sorry I did it, so there! :p

[chusauli]

What does Self Defense mean in your opinion?

There should be no opinion what Self defense is. Self Defense is a legal term; Basically it means you must break off your attack as soon as the opponent breaks off his attack to you. If you continue, you are doing aggravated assault (illegal) and dueling (illegal). Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...you'd best check with Terence Niehoff. :)

BTW, in my opinion, WCK would fall under the category of dueling. The only outlet that is legal would be sport.

[m1k3]

What does Self Defense mean in your opinion?

I am probably being too picky about this.

Self defense has to do with protecting yourself or others against harm, both verbal and physical. It can be as simple as being aware of your surroundings and avoiding bad places, to verbal deescalation, to leaving the site of a potential conflict (fancy talk for walking away from a fight), to restraining someone to out and out fighting with or without weapons. It can be as simple as saying I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that or fighting for your life as need be.

There really isn't an easy answer for it.

I tend to define combat as something that happens betweens groups of armed individuals, usually as least one side being members of the armed forces. These groups are usually heavily armed and willing to inflict damage on people and property to accomplish a mission.

I tend to see what happens in self defense as random, at least for the victim, or a form of dueling, an agreed upon fight for honor or out of anger, by those involved. Self defense may end in death of the participants but almost never escalates beyond those in the general area of the fight.

I tend to see combat as intentional, at least in the sense that those involved knew the potential for combat was possible and maybe even likely. They are usually armed, often trained and willing to bring in additional resources if needed. Combat is intended to end in death with the possibility of collateral damage to others and damage to their property. Wholesale damage to locations and large numbers of deaths is not unusual in combat. Combat can and often does escalate to involve those not involved in the initial phase of the conflict as additional resources are called in by one or both sides.

The difference is in intention and scale. Self defense is usually personal, combat is usually to achieve an objective or to accomplish a mission.

[Yoshiyahu]

There should be no opinion what Self defense is. Self Defense is a legal term; Basically it means you must break off your attack as soon as the opponent breaks off his attack to you. If you continue, you are doing aggravated assault (illegal) and dueling (illegal). Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...you'd best check with Terence Niehoff. :)

BTW, in my opinion, WCK would fall under the category of dueling. The only outlet that is legal would be sport.

According the dicitionary Chusauli whats the definition of combat?




I tend to see combat as intentional, at least in the sense that those involved knew the potential for combat was possible and maybe even likely. They are usually armed, often trained and willing to bring in additional resources if needed. Combat is intended to end in death with the possibility of collateral damage to others and damage to their property. Wholesale damage to locations and large numbers of deaths is not unusual in combat. Combat can and often does escalate to involve those not involved in the initial phase of the conflict as additional resources are called in by one or both sides.

Interesting I read your thoughts on combat. Sounds alot like Crips and Bloods mentality when they have shoot outs in the street. Or the incident that happen downtown on salisbury where several innonence people were killed as well. Or the case of mistaking identity when drug dealers shoot someone down at a gas station who looks someone they were beefing with. Also its interesting because they intend to attack one or a group of indiviual but alot times collateral damage happens. Its usually involving two separate groups of indivuals with similiar ideologies who have different agendas. Be it terriority, Finacial gain or maybe pure revenge for someone in their clique who shot down.

The first definition for combat is "a fight or contest between individuals or groups
"

Interesting it could be a contest or a fight. Combat is not always with uzi, ak-47 and nine milli's.




Mr Punch you made some great Points concerning getting a Armored Vest an placing dots on it. An practice striking those points on moving opponent. That is pretty good actually. But realistically The points on the center line are so close together that one just merely has to continously hit down the conception line with enough force an you will acheive your goal. Just hitting a point one time may not render the desire effect. Although it may render some pain in your opponent an make them loose interest in continuing the fight. An that way you would have defending your self an can walk away with out having to do serious harm.

I believe with Wing Chun you should fight renlentlessly and with out restraint. But this is my opinion of course.

The Kuen Kuit says:

Enemies are fought fiercely and attacks may be initiated in order to gain control.

Also it is written:

Once an initial attack is made, it is followed in succession until the target is no more.

Of course I don't mean go on a killing spree. Fighting is scary and depending on who your fighting having 3 to 10 years in Muay Thai and Jiujitsu may not prevent you from getting your arse beat down and then placed in a choke hold by a 17 year old six foot 290lbs Vice Lord who entry into the Set is to beat down some civilian who walks by. An low and behold its you. Some say I am speaking about fantasy stuff. But Not really. When I go to visit my brother who use to live on street where atleast one person is shot an killed on his street atleast once a month an usually every weekend during the summer. Being aware that a possible Jack Move could occur at anytime An i am not even thinking about trying to defend myself but just simply stay alive at all cost. Are dating a woman who just moved to projects due to finiacial sitituations or going to a woman's house who I met in the club who lives in a high gang problem area. To me its very real. Going to visit relatives or going to a certain church where the area has its problems can be a opportunity for problem. I remember this year and last year I went to two funerals that were in problem areas. So I am always on guard. An keep my car alarm on at all times.

I think differently than many of you. Because my Family, History and Lifestyle is different. I think of ways to maximize my Wing Chun. I don't want to be like some kung fu guy who does forms all day an doesn't fight and lacks stopping power. I feel the practioner should be strong, His art should fierce and his fighting skills should be dangerous. This is my opinion. Not for mere competitions and sports but for life. Otherwise why train. Whats the purpose of taking a MARTIAL art. If you do not learn it for its Martial applications.

[Yoshiyahu]

Before when I started this topic. it was concerning a Kung Found with in Wing Chun that seems to be ignored by many people. Why is that. A technique with out skill behind it is usesless. With in Sil Lim Tao you have finger strikes. Whats the purpose?

Also some wing chun lineages include the Phoenix Eye Fist and Ginger Fist. With out proper conditioning these Techniques are useless. You must acquire the Kung to be able to properly apply the technique.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=931851&postcount=1


This information I shared earlier

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=932690&postcount=31



I am sharing information I feel will greatly increase one's options with Wing Chun.

You can develop many things in WC
1.Iron Fingers
2.Peircing Toe Kick
3.Iron Palm
4.Iron Arms
5.Phoenix Eye Fist

These Kungs can make your Wing Chun more formidable.

AS for Finger training many doubt it's real aunthencity.

Well what does Kuen Kuit say?

- Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.

- The phoenix eye punch has no compassion.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Biu_Jee


I am not speaking of Chi Magic or Mysterious powers. I am speaking of traditional hard training which will give one a well conditioned Wing Chun System. Even a Knive needs to be sharpen. Wing Chun is the knife and the kungs are a blade that has been newly sharpen!

Bil Gee and eagle claw kung fu
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBLQ7gImjS4C&pg=PA84&dq=wing+chun+iron+fingers

Snake Hand and Ginger Fist mention here
http://books.google.com/books?id=t36y4sRDkWMC&pg=PA57&dq=wing+chun+phoneix+eye


Later on this speaks of conditioning too!
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBLQ7gImjS4C&pg=PA84&dq=wing+chun+iron+sand+palm

[chusauli]

According the dicitionary Chusauli whats the definition of combat?

I believe with Wing Chun you should fight renlentlessly and with out restraint. But this is my opinion of course.

The Kuen Kuit says:

Enemies are fought fiercely and attacks may be initiated in order to gain control.

Also it is written:

Once an initial attack is made, it is followed in succession until the target is no more.

I think differently than many of you. Because my Family, History and Lifestyle is different. I think of ways to maximize my Wing Chun. I don't want to be like some kung fu guy who does forms all day an doesn't fight and lacks stopping power. I feel the practioner should be strong, His art should fierce and his fighting skills should be dangerous. This is my opinion. Not for mere competitions and sports but for life. Otherwise why train. Whats the purpose of taking a MARTIAL art. If you do not learn it for its Martial applications.

Yoshiyahu,

You certainly don't need me to look up a word in the dictionary :) - provided you can spell the word properly.

And you are free to do what you want, but always know there will be retribution and the law. Relying on old Kuen Kuit not in accord with the times is foolish, naive and dangerous.

Of course, it might just be your age or ignorance. You learn MARTIAL ART, not MARTIAL art, or martial ART, so that you can learn to walk away from most conflict, because that you know who you truly are and are capable of knowing outcome ahead of time. If you need it, its there, and you must know you can always avoid a majority of conflict. Wu/Mo means to stop conflict, save a life, protect a life, but no killing. I think it was a disservice for you to not educate yourself on self defense and the law.

Your mentality shows more of a thug-like, or animalistic side, completely on the lower three chakras of power, control, reproduction. It is a mentality based on greed, anger, ignorance. I hope you reform your nature and find more peace, or at least educate yourself better, perhaps move into a better environment, and maintain vigilance if you must enter these areas.

I was like that, too. I grew up a chinaman in Manhattan's low income Spanish Harlem. I thought and trained like a thug for years. I also had a lot of street fights and stupid conflicts. But now I know better.

Might I suggest:

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Self-Protection/dp/0553195190/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241713518&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440508835/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241713545&sr=1-1

Best regards,

[Yoshiyahu]

I feel what you are saying about the law. I have two friends who are cops and cousin who is a cop too. So I understand. By no means do I got out all texas ranger style. But if something was to occur where I was faced against some thugs. I would more than likely try to hurt them if they didnt hurt me first. Thug mentality call it what you will. Ignorance no...maybe arrogance Greed no...Yes Fear and Anger will play a factor. But my reason for hurting them badly would be more Fear than anger. Before MA's training I was a scary kid. So because of that I see fighting differently. As for Power. I wish to over power my foe and control them...As for reproduction I only wish to shoot blanks if i can...lol as for chakaras i dont believe in that garbage...





Yoshiyahu,

You certainly don't need me to look up a word in the dictionary :) - provided you can spell the word properly.

And you are free to do what you want, but always know there will be retribution and the law. Relying on old Kuen Kuit not in accord with the times is foolish, naive and dangerous.

Of course, it might just be your age or ignorance. You learn MARTIAL ART, not MARTIAL art, or martial ART, so that you can learn to walk away from most conflict, because that you know who you truly are and are capable of knowing outcome ahead of time. If you need it, its there, and you must know you can always avoid a majority of conflict. Wu/Mo means to stop conflict, save a life, protect a life, but no killing. I think it was a disservice for you to not educate yourself on self defense and the law.

Your mentality shows more of a thug-like, or animalistic side, completely on the lower three chakras of power, control, reproduction. It is a mentality based on greed, anger, ignorance. I hope you reform your nature and find more peace, or at least educate yourself better, perhaps move into a better environment, and maintain vigilance if you must enter these areas.

I was like that, too. I grew up a chinaman in Manhattan's low income Spanish Harlem. I thought and trained like a thug for years. I also had a lot of street fights and stupid conflicts. But now I know better.

Might I suggest:

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Self-Protection/dp/0553195190/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241713518&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440508835/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241713545&sr=1-1

Best regards,

[Genetic]

Yoshiyahu,
I think it was a disservice for you to not educate yourself on self defense and the law.


Okay, it is possibly a difference between US and UK law, but your defenition of Self Defense (as a legal term):

"Self Defense is a legal term; Basically it means you must break off your attack as soon as the opponent breaks off his attack to you. If you continue, you are doing aggravated assault (illegal) and dueling (illegal). Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...you'd best check with Terence Niehoff."

This isnt the case in the UK.

In the UK you are allowed to use reasonable force if you consider yourself to be in danger. This is before you are attacked i.e premptive strikes are legal if you consider yourself to be in danger, and as long as you are in danger, prior to an opponent being rendered unconscious or incapable of further retribution.

Which makes a lot of sense.

[Yoshiyahu]

Genetic I have to say Chausli is right concerning


Subsection 1 He has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened use of unlawful force; or


However there is a clause here:
Subsection 2 A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 unless he reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or another against death, serious physical injury, rape, sodomy or kidnapping.

But in either case I am speaking in situtations where your assailiant will still attack you after he breaks off the attack. Developing a Kung may infact give you the ability to inflict enough pain on biggest guy in the gang to make the others break off an attack. An then your fight is over. I do not mean to keep hitting someone who runs away. If he runs why chase him. But if he has or is going for weapon than simply go for one of his limbs. Chances are in real fight you don't have time to think. Things are a blur an go fast. Especially when your in tunnel vision an everything turns red in your viewing. The only thing your thinking about is not getting hurt. To me totally ending a fight in 30 seconds or a minute is ideal. Why fight or chase people to fight over and over. I agree with chausli concerning self defense law. An when I use my 45 instead I will keep that in mind. Chances are I would just shoot my assailants. Wing Chun is good for giving me time to draw down on my enemies. I don't believe in fighting in the streets. Someone wants to mug me. If they got a gun. I aim for the chest an then the head. If they got a knife or nada I aim for the legs and or foot. That way the threat is no more. If its gang of five or more, I aim for the chest.

But I feel those days when your gun is no where to be found, developing iron fingers can end a fight quickly. Now you don't need to kill your opponent. Simply strike them to incapacitate them for awhile so you can go your way. But as for self defense law. In the areas I speak of ain't no one going to say they are done fighting until they drop or you drop. So realistically that clause doesn't always apply.

Thats the end of my debate from now!


Okay, it is possibly a difference between US and UK law, but your defenition of Self Defense (as a legal term):

"Self Defense is a legal term; Basically it means you must break off your attack as soon as the opponent breaks off his attack to you. If you continue, you are doing aggravated assault (illegal) and dueling (illegal). Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...you'd best check with Terence Niehoff."

This isnt the case in the UK.

In the UK you are allowed to use reasonable force if you consider yourself to be in danger. This is before you are attacked i.e premptive strikes are legal if you consider yourself to be in danger, and as long as you are in danger, prior to an opponent being rendered unconscious or incapable of further retribution.

Which makes a lot of sense.

[chusauli]

This may help you all:

http://www.spw-duf.info/force.html

Excerpt below:

The Golden Rule of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents.

Deadly force is that force which could reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm.

Grave bodily harm generally refers to crippling injuries. In some jurisdictions it is also known as great bodily injury.

When someone says, "Your presence offends me, I'm going home to go get my gun to shoot you," the threat is not immediate.

When someone says, "Your presence offends me, if you return here tomorrow, I will be waiting with my gun to shoot you," the threat is not otherwise unavoidable. Even if you must return to that location, you have ample time to contact law enforcement.

The other definitions require a little more explanation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't live in fantasyfu-land. Educate yourselves.

And finally, if you want to talk about guns, get some training in that as well. Aim at the center of mass and breaking the pelvis is better than what you are saying for targets above. Very lame.

When fight or flight reflex hits you, you're not a marksman and can't pick your targets. Same with Dimmak nonsense. And you need to practice dry fire all the time with your gun...

Do they allow you to carry a .45 without a permit in St. Louis?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

all ive got to say is if you do decide to use deadly force on someone i would make 100% sure it was the only option. Not only will it weigh on your conscience (atleast it would weigh on mine) but in my neck of the woods, wether your use of deadly force is justifiable or not is up to the responding officer 99% of the time if the officer warrants that deadly force shouldnt have been used..........you better have a good lawyer.


Mr. Chu,

you can carry concealed weapons in missouri but there is a class you have to take and alot of red tape before you can legally. That applies to southern missouri, Kansas City and St. Louis may have different laws.

[punchdrunk]

I really think it is nice to see a thread about Wing Chun use in self defence. Honestly though most people only train for social purposes, so most will not be able to offer any real advice or have any real experience. Unfortunately that includes a lot of instructors.
About iron skills:
I have never worried about bui gee conditioning or toe kicks or iron this and that... far more valuable to simply learn to step and punch correctly. Most attackers don't occupy or protect the center line at all and all you need to do is strike. Practice full power strikes and stepping.
About the law:
Really comes down to "better to be judged by a jury than carried in a coffin." If you worry about hurting an attacker you will hesitate and lose opportunities and give an advantage to the attacker! I am no thug, I use verbal skills or posturing whenever possible because I don't wanna get hurt or go to jail or really hurt anyone else. But there are people out there that will happily jump up and down on your head till you die. Do what you must and leave before cops come. Keep your training private so you are not judged by it.
About kuen kuit:
They are just advice from past practitioners, definately not the "law" on Wing Chun.

Yoshiyahu this is a good topic, my advice is to keep training simple and work the basics.

[Genetic]

I was relating about the law in the UK, it is different from the US, I have no doubts about that

[Wayfaring]

you can carry concealed weapons in missouri but there is a class you have to take and alot of red tape before you can legally. That applies to southern missouri, Kansas City and St. Louis may have different laws.

CCW classes are offered quite commonly across the US. They typically are prerequisites for applying for a CCW license. If you own, carry, shoot a handgun I would highly recommend a good one of these classes. Topics they cover include the law (and local classes cover precise state laws, which vary in the US), carrying a weapon, non-lethal alternative weapons, and actual practice in realistic situations. Also a lot of logistics considerations regarding whether to carry or not, or when. Safety of carrying and storage is also covered.

The class I took had an exercise drawing a weapon and dry firing while someone is running towards you illustrating the ground someone can cover in the time it takes to draw and fire. Also, covering and issuing verbal commands to an aggressive assailant and firing at the correct time.

When speaking of self-defense, I highly recommend these types of classes. They cover practical details most people don't think about when discussing self defense and martial arts.

[Yoshiyahu]

chauasli said: "When someone says, "Your presence offends me, I'm going home to go get my gun to shoot you," the threat is not immediate.

When someone says, "Your presence offends me, if you return here tomorrow, I will be waiting with my gun to shoot you," the threat is not otherwise unavoidable. Even if you must return to that location, you have ample time to contact law enforcement."


Thats plan foolishness. Why would you return to a place where someone wants to beat your head in. Thats like me testfying against a drug dealer who saw shot someone in broad daylight. What fool is going to go looking for the drug dealer at his house to fight him. Its like the drug dealer says in court I am gonna kill you when i see you. Do I go to his house to help the guy. No you advoid him. This is foolishness. I think your view of my statement is totally off based.

I am not saying you go looking for a fight. Someone is talking trash an you make them fight...or someone tries to fight you an when you hit them in the face they run away so you chase them. There was incident one time. I was at a skating rink. I had words with this DJ.

Another story: He was playing some horrible music that people my age really don't want to hear. I let him know it was wack. His younger brother had a problem with me. This guy walked up in my face talking big an bad. He was saying some stuff Like he wanted to go. So I jumped up ran in his face and told him don't ever come up to me like you hard an you gonna punk me I aint the one. I got right in his face close enough for chi sau range, So if he threw a punch I would be inclose to throw elbows. The guy then retracted his statement back up and said he had no problem. No fight there.

You guys say things that are ridiculos. Fighting is scary not something you go looking for. If you can go home. Why not close your door an lock it. If the guy follows you home. Guess what I am gonna call my cousin who is police officer first and then some of buddies. So if anything kick off I got legal eye witnesses on the scene. But I am not going outside my door to attack the guy. If the guy is big and bad enough to enter my domain then deadly force is gonna happen. Once he passes through my threshold and pass my foyer. Thats when I unload.


punchdrunk said:
Keep your training private so you are not judged by it.


I agree. I am not speaking as they believe. I am speaking of sitituations where there is no other option. Thats what I train for. As for Basics. I practice them daily. It don't matter if you can break bricks with your pinky finger. If you have no technique your hidden skills are useless. So yes Basics are major factor. First key is to build short power and punching power and kicking power. Those should be built up both externally and internally.

But as for subject many people seem not to want to include this part of their training in their wing chun. the Kuen Kuit still mentions Iron Fingers. So obviously its apart of Wing Chun Plus those sayings are not that old!

[punchdrunk]

Again you are right Yoshi, calling the police very rarely solves anything. The legal system simply doesn't offer much protection.
About Bui Jee ... you know the kuen kuit "bui jee does not go out the door"? Seriously i think most people have crazy ideas about the techniques from the form, like throwing downward elbows and throat chops every 10 secs in chi sao. Or bui jee's at eachothers eyes in chi sao. The techniques are very simple and easy to train in better ways than chi sao, and i think you are practical enough to find your own. But they are not to be shown or understood by everyone. That is why i stress the basics (and because they usually work). I sincerely hope you find yourelf and your family in a better neighbourhood soon, where self defence can be a fantasy and not a reality.. then you can study secret pressure points and chi gung like so many "masters" do. Shoot I might even buy your book!

Peace.

[chusauli]

Rather than CCW classes where you get a minimum of training, I strongly suggest:

http://www.ayoob.com/LFIschedule.html

http://chapmanacademy.com/about.shtml

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=10503

http://www.spw-duf.info/training.html

http://www.gunsite.com/

You will get an education of real world self defense and completely applicable to martial arts training. And no fantasy gun training here. This is real gun fu.

I also strongly suggest you study a real knife art like Kalis Ilustrisimo or Mark Wiley's Integrated Escrima. You will learn some real knife use as well and how at 20 feet, the knife is greater than the gun.

Best regards,

[chusauli]

chauasli said: "When someone says, "Your presence offends me, I'm going home to go get my gun to shoot you," the threat is not immediate.

When someone says, "Your presence offends me, if you return here tomorrow, I will be waiting with my gun to shoot you," the threat is not otherwise unavoidable. Even if you must return to that location, you have ample time to contact law enforcement."


Thats plan foolishness. Why would you return to a place where someone wants to beat your head in. Thats like me testfying against a drug dealer who saw shot someone in broad daylight. What fool is going to go looking for the drug dealer at his house to fight him. Its like the drug dealer says in court I am gonna kill you when i see you. Do I go to his house to help the guy. No you advoid him. This is foolishness. I think your view of my statement is totally off based.

I am not saying you go looking for a fight. Someone is talking trash an you make them fight...or someone tries to fight you an when you hit them in the face they run away so you chase them. There was incident one time. I was at a skating rink. I had words with this DJ.




Yoshiyahu,

You are obviously uneducated in this area. The statement is done by Steve Wenger to illustrate the three major components for justified self defense using lethal force: 1) immediate, otherwise 2) unavoidable threat of death or 3) grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents.

You just jump knee jerk with little analysis of what is being said. It shows how ignorant you are.

Please get an education.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For those of us that have ACTUALLY been in and seen combat, combat is something best to be avoided.
Stick to self protection within the scope of the law, you'll live longer, be freer and sleep better at night.

[AdrianK]

Please get an education.

Hahahah, Wow! :D

[Yoshiyahu]

Again you are right Yoshi, calling the police very rarely solves anything. The legal system simply doesn't offer much protection.
About Bui Jee ... you know the kuen kuit "bui jee does not go out the door"? Seriously i think most people have crazy ideas about the techniques from the form, like throwing downward elbows and throat chops every 10 secs in chi sao. Or bui jee's at eachothers eyes in chi sao. The techniques are very simple and easy to train in better ways than chi sao, and i think you are practical enough to find your own. But they are not to be shown or understood by everyone. That is why i stress the basics (and because they usually work). I sincerely hope you find yourelf and your family in a better neighbourhood soon, where self defence can be a fantasy and not a reality.. then you can study secret pressure points and chi gung like so many "masters" do. Shoot I might even buy your book!

Peace.

Actually I think calling the police is great thing. Depending on the neighbor you are in. In the county tthe police is one of my first options. But I would call my friend who is a police officer up the street first and my cousin who is a police officer in another county. But if you don't have those avenues I would definetly call the police. Again when I am speaking I may not convey all my thoughts accurately. I am not speaking of a sitituation where you can use a phone or gun. I am speaking of a sitituation where you are about to get jumped on by five or more guys. No where to run. An your scared they are going to hurt you. I am not speaking of situtation where if you begin fighting with one that he is going to say hey man I give up I don't want to fight any more. I am speaking of people who actually get a kick out of jumping people for the fun of it. I knew of people like that. Fortunately for me I knew them. There was a time when I was 20 years old I went to this girls house who live in neighbor a little more ghetto than mine. It was still the county. I had on red that day. An a few men who were outside started walking up on me. They didn't say a word. At first I didn't realize they were trying to flank me. But one of guys spoke up. He Knew my name. He said hey I went to school with him back in the day. He's cool. Then he said to me over you can't wear red. Another time when I was in highschool I went to different girl house. I was standing on her porce. I had a blue tommy hilfiger shirt. A car pulled up and asked me whats up with all that flu I had on. I was really taking back. I was like are you serious. I am dress preppy why do you think I am crip? I talked to guys for a while they figured I was a square so they drove off. That instance I had a chance to talk my way out of it. The first one something would have just happen with out me knowing. Those types of guys just do things like that for the heck of it.

As for Bui Jee. I need to clear this up. When I speak of Bil Gee I am not really just saying the form. Bil Sau is a technique. Bil Gee is also a technique. So when I say Bil Gee I mean thrusting fingers. Or Shooting fingers. Using your fingers as weapon is what I mean. But yes some say bil gee doesnt go out the door means it is only taught to serious students. But Bil Gee contains emergency techniques. I guess the question would be. Whats an emergency? When your getting mugged? When your getting jumped on? When your getting raped or your manhood taking? ha ha...nasty i know...

As for books I wouldn't right a book on WC. Maybe my Scriptural beliefs. But yea. I actually live in okay neighborhood. I stay in the county. Stuff still happens. I heard a white lady got robbed in the park by two black guys. An yes when I pass guys on street my fist are always ready to go. But I do not think pressure point study is for the sole purpose of killing. Shoot I don't need your pressure points to kill you. I always keep a pen or some tool like a small vice grip or screw driver in my pocket to you with. All I need is a clear shot with a metal pen or vice grip to the neck. Don't need pressure points to kill. But pressure points on the center line can stop a person from fighting. Make them loose interest. An be your finger,phoenix eye fist or something else used to strike those points. I think its worth it. Don't need to kill them. I am not saying that.



As for chausli i won't respond back just call me ignorant all you like. We don't have to agree. My only question to you. Is do you think iron fingers techniques exist in the Wing Chun System?

[chusauli]

Iron finger, palm, fist, elbow all exist in WCK. If you have trained these to a level to be considered "iron", I would agree. Good to have proper Lien Gung Jow at your disposal.

BTW, regarding UK law, best to check with a barrister or local law enforcement. Don't guess.

[Wayfaring]

Rather than CCW classes where you get a minimum of training, I strongly suggest:

http://www.ayoob.com/LFIschedule.html

http://chapmanacademy.com/about.shtml

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=10503

http://www.spw-duf.info/training.html

http://www.gunsite.com/

You will get an education of real world self defense and completely applicable to martial arts training. And no fantasy gun training here. This is real gun fu.


Well, sure, if you have $5000 and unlimited travel budget you can train some more advanced courses all over the country. 2 of your links above provide CCW classes in their curriculum.

Courses I took were at http://www.maricopatactical.com - CCW as intro and a couple other more advanced shooting courses. Valpone has plenty of credentials and ability to teach equally with any of the schools you reference above. He trains SWAT teams so can scale up any armored tactical stuff. Great stuff a lot more than I can review shortly here but certainly as good as or better as any of the above courses.

In general though for people who aren't putting a lot of rounds through a handgun, a CCW course is like your first intro to that kind of thing. $120 and a weekend will get you going there. Then you can branch out. As anything else, if you search for qualified CCW instructors in a local area, then check out their backgrounds to ensure you have someone that can teach real combat self defense that's probably the best.

Also, a local course will have information pertinent to state law in the state they are teaching as opposed to more general information. And state laws vary. California to Arizona to Texas to New York, you could get yourself in real trouble by going with legal info from the wrong state as a baseline assumption. Even more so between countries.



I also strongly suggest you study a real knife art like Kalis Ilustrisimo or Mark Wiley's Integrated Escrima. You will learn some real knife use as well and how at 20 feet, the knife is greater than the gun.

Best regards,
Edged weapons are a whole other topic. They're great but from my perspective take a lot of active work. I tend to go with combat pens, keys, flashlights, sprayables, other non-lethals both when I am and am not carrying. That's all a personal choice.

But from a combat shooting stance with a drawn sidearm at 20 ft. - I'll argue with the statement the knife is better. Similarly with both weapons holstered or put away, especially with some of the carry rigs available.

[Yoshiyahu]

Iron finger, palm, fist, elbow all exist in WCK. If you have trained these to a level to be considered "iron", I would agree. Good to have proper Lien Gung Jow at your disposal.

BTW, regarding UK law, best to check with a barrister or local law enforcement. Don't guess.

Thank you for your opinion. Great explanation. Now we are beginning to get somewhere reasonable with out adding insults to injuries. Lol...To me there are techniques with in the Wing Chun that can not be truly use unless one has train and conditioned his seven stars to where they can applied accurately and fiercly. My Sifu has shared various training methods with me. Some I practice others I do not. But I love to talk about them all.

[Lee Chiang Po]

When I was in my first training years, I was shown many different techniques that are no longer of value because of our changed world. And because we can not see the future, it was commonly considered that what we did at the time would continue to be what we would do years later. But as we all know, this is not the case. I was told never to teach outside of family, and if I did, not outside the Chinese community. I have kept my word on that. Bil Gee was not taught to me for several years, and I was told many times why it should not be taught to people outside of our own. Along with learning it comes a concept for it's use. And it was also expected that in order to learn it you would have to train it, and this required that you train the hands. You don't have to make crooked stubs of your hands in order to use it efficiently, but you do need to make the hands strong, otherwise you will not be able to make it work for you.
I think the main reason for not teaching it to just anyone is that in doing so you remain forever responsible for what they do with it. That would not even enter into the thinking here in this country today as long as money is paid.
There is concern over using finger strikes against someone that's fighting back with you. First off, this is a fear that comes from not knowing it's limitations to begin with. Like many other techniques, you do not stand off and jab at a moving target. I will say however that if you are close enough to hit me, then I am close enough to hit you back. And rather than try to hit a moving target you use it as a follow up to another entry technique or attack. If you can trap an arm and move an opponent off balance for even a split second you can then move right in and strike targets accurately. If you are in your center line you are close enough that you are not striking all that far, so accuracy is not that difficult.
For those that choose not to train it or even to recognize it, that is ok. In these times it is not a necessity anyway. Most fighting is done in sparing, which is really fantasy fighting, and in this type of fighting you don't really need it or most likely shouldn't use it. You wouldn't shoot or stab your training partner, so why crush his windpipe or put out his eyes?

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree. But some of his train for real street combat. Just in case he run up against a thug who wishes to give chase down a dead end alley an you have to fight with your back up against the wall. Been there. Sometimes your successful an can hop a fence of a neighbor that knows you. Or you run into someone who knows you are the police is out walking around an you can stand next to him. But sometimes there is no one but you with no one around except for the guy or guys who wishes to prove how tough he is by beating some poor schmuck to death. Are you out numbered. I believe you should build your fist, phoenix eye and fingers or palm strikes to be strong enough to lay someone in their backs. But with the fingers if they are strong enough you can use them to squeeze flesh too. An cause some one to drop to their knees especially if you squeeze their groin tight. Thats why in my lineage we work on grip too. But any way. I think true Iron Gee can be deadly if you strike someone in the wind pipe or eyes. But with out condition hands I can use my thumb to injure eye just as easily. or a ridge hand to your throat works nicely.

But so true. I feel the deadly weapon of course is a gun and then a 45. But for the Martial artist Bil Gee may help you survive an armed attacker or group fight. So with sparring of course don't bil gee and iron palm your training partner. But in actual confrontation where you are afraid I would use it. But not to kill but to hurt to make the attacker give up.



When I was in my first training years, I was shown many different techniques that are no longer of value because of our changed world. And because we can not see the future, it was commonly considered that what we did at the time would continue to be what we would do years later. But as we all know, this is not the case. I was told never to teach outside of family, and if I did, not outside the Chinese community. I have kept my word on that. Bil Gee was not taught to me for several years, and I was told many times why it should not be taught to people outside of our own. Along with learning it comes a concept for it's use. And it was also expected that in order to learn it you would have to train it, and this required that you train the hands. You don't have to make crooked stubs of your hands in order to use it efficiently, but you do need to make the hands strong, otherwise you will not be able to make it work for you.

I think the main reason for not teaching it to just anyone is that in doing so you remain forever responsible for what they do with it. That would not even enter into the thinking here in this country today as long as money is paid.

There is concern over using finger strikes against someone that's fighting back with you. First off, this is a fear that comes from not knowing it's limitations to begin with. Like many other techniques, you do not stand off and jab at a moving target. I will say however that if you are close enough to hit me, then I am close enough to hit you back. And rather than try to hit a moving target you use it as a follow up to another entry technique or attack. If you can trap an arm and move an opponent off balance for even a split second you can then move right in and strike targets accurately. If you are in your center line you are close enough that you are not striking all that far, so accuracy is not that difficult.
For those that choose not to train it or even to recognize it, that is ok. In these times it is not a necessity anyway. Most fighting is done in sparing, which is really fantasy fighting, and in this type of fighting you don't really need it or most likely shouldn't use it. You wouldn't shoot or stab your training partner, so why crush his windpipe or put out his eyes?

[Hendrik]

兵者不祥之器，非君子之器，不得已而用之，恬淡為上。
勝而不美，而美之者，是樂殺人。
夫樂殺人者，則不可得志於天下矣。

[Yoshiyahu]

Your post didn't show up....its like a bunch of hollow blocks!



兵者不祥之器，非君子之器，不得已而用之，恬淡為上。
勝而不美，而美之者，是樂殺人。
夫樂殺人者，則不可得志於天下矣。

[punchdrunk]

Maybe your comp isn't set to display chinese characters?
Basically he insulted you calling you a brute and saying you can never win that way. I can't stand people who insult or ridicule others in a language they know they don't understand, it's snobby, childish and cowardly all in one! BTW there are chinese to english translators on the net I'm sure they don't work very well but they can help a bit. Best of luck.

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh hendrik must be upset I am not paying him any attention...


Look at what hendrik says...



Maybe your comp isn't set to display chinese characters?
Basically he insulted you calling you a brute and saying you can never win that way. I can't stand people who insult or ridicule others in a language they know they don't understand, it's snobby, childish and cowardly all in one! BTW there are chinese to english translators on the net I'm sure they don't work very well but they can help a bit. Best of luck.



Hendrik said
as for Chi, hahaha, do you have enough breath to sing and jump and move like her? do you think doing the SLT/SNT will get there? hahaha


Now he is beginning to sound like a five yearold If you asked me?
I hate DEAD WCK. hahaha get some life man.


Hendik even believes Jennifer Lopez is good person to show you the Kuen Kuit of Wing Chun...What kinda of crap is that?


The following clips are what the kuen kuit communicate/ means into day's communication.

You dont need Chinese or English which misled,

Let Jennifer Lopez Show the basic beyond language in a four dimensional reality. and use your knowing to know. Stop your brain. using Chinese term has become to much a burden.



the only thing I agreed with that hendrik mention was utilizing the teachings from Shaolin Snake and Crane body motions. This will make your Wing Chun lively. I agree with that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Stop believing in magic and train hard so that you don't get yourself beaten up.

[Hendrik]

Maybe your comp isn't set to display chinese characters?
Basically he insulted you calling you a brute and saying you can never win that way. I can't stand people who insult or ridicule others in a language they know they don't understand, it's snobby, childish and cowardly all in one! BTW there are chinese to english translators on the net I'm sure they don't work very well but they can help a bit. Best of luck.



How much could one trust the words of a Drunk person? Zero.

This shows your character isnt it?

[Hendrik]

Oh hendrik must be upset I am not paying him any attention...




Are you drunk to trust a drunk person with drunk talk? why insult your own IQ and EQ?




These are the teaching of the Sage Lao Tze. Chapter 31.


兵者不祥之器，非君子之器，不得已而用之，恬淡為上。



Weapons are tools of violence,
Not of the sage;
He uses them only when there is no choice,
And then calmly, and with tact,
For he finds no beauty in them.


勝而不美，而美之者，是樂殺人。
夫樂殺人者，則不可得志於天下矣。

Whoever finds beauty in weapons
Delights in the slaughter of men;
And who delights in slaughter
Cannot content himself with peace.

[punchdrunk]

Just saying what the translator spat out... if your writing to someone who reads English you should write in English. And a poetic insult is still an insult, Ok sage of snake oil wing chun. Maybe you should bai si to an English teacher.

Yoshi I did not mean to mislead or mistranslate I was using an online translator and thought I was helping you. Basically it said

Soldier unlucky, the non-gentleman, has to use it, indifferent to fame or gain for on.
Wins but is not beautiful, but US, is the happy murder.
Husband happy slayer, then cannot be successful in the world.


so I said
Basically he insulted you calling you a brute and saying you can never win that way

either way it sounds the same to me. BTW here is the translator I used.. http://us.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php translators are not perfect but poetic or not the message is simmilar.

[Yoshiyahu]

No I am not drunk that I would trust your drunk talk...I was simply stating somethings you said that were reserved for out there T.V.

You can go off onto a tanget sometime. But now you back to Tao Te Ching I see. Interesting...


Are you drunk to trust a drunk person with drunk talk? why insult your own IQ and EQ?




These are the teaching of the Sage Lao Tze. Chapter 31.


兵者不祥之器，非君子之器，不得已而用之，恬淡為上。



Weapons are tools of violence,
Not of the sage;
He uses them only when there is no choice,
And then calmly, and with tact,
For he finds no beauty in them.


勝而不美，而美之者，是樂殺人。
夫樂殺人者，則不可得志於天下矣。

Whoever finds beauty in weapons
Delights in the slaughter of men;
And who delights in slaughter
Cannot content himself with peace.


Punchdrunk its okay. I often speak to Hendrik concerning his idocycranices.

Thanks for the help.

[Hendrik]

N

You can go off onto a tanget sometime. But now you back to Tao Te Ching I see. Interesting...

.


If memory serve, you share with us you study Tao Te Ching....ect right?

[Yoshiyahu]

If memory serve, you share with us you study Tao Te Ching....ect right?

I didn't understand your sentence here...Please retype it in correct english?

Not trying to be funny!!!

[Katsu Jin Ken]

If memory serve, you share with us you study Tao Te Ching....ect right?


I didn't understand your sentence here...Please retype it in correct english?

Not trying to be funny!!!

you two have alittle bit of a rivalary going on here :D

meeeeoooww cat fight :eek:

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes he is my Nemesis. I must defeat him with my Almight Wing Chun Pak Da.




you two have alittle bit of a rivalary going on here :D

meeeeoooww cat fight :eek: