Do you have a root?

[stonecrusher69]

Hope you like it..


Do you have Root?

A lot of people who begin taking up a martial art for the first time, such as Wing Chun, tend to be overly eager. Many just want to learn the "good stuff" and jump right into advanced training. Beginner martial artists try to take short cuts by spending as little time as possible on the basics, bypassing the "hard, boring, and mundane" aspects of training like developing a strong root.

What they fail to realize is that a strong root is essential to building a good foundation in preparation for advanced training. Simply put, without a strong root you have no gung fu. What does a strong root really mean? Without a solid root, one's techniques will simply not work against someone with a developed root, and ones attack and defense will lack the necessary force to deal with their opponent's attack. A person who has failed to develop a strong root is like a house of cards, apply modest pressure and it totally collapses .Also a person devoid of a root has no real structure and can be controlled easily by one who is rooted. Without structure, this type of person must rely solely on brute force or sectional power to generate force (such as the power of only the hand or foot.) Although this type of power can be great, it is unconnected from the whole body and lacks the power which comes from one's root.

When issuing force from the root, however, whole body power is used. This power originates from one's root and is connected from the ground-up and transmitted through one's structure. Not just the portion of the hand or leg is used, but the whole connected body. This power is unbroken like the chain on a bicycle. When released; the force feels like being hit by a tidal wave or a sudden shock wave. This type of power is what gives the smaller person the ability to generate a tremendous amount of power compared to someone who relays solely on his arms or legs. In the old days of the great masters, you often heard about persons of a small stature who were able to defeat larger foes with their ability to deliver power beyond the normal. I'm sure such great masters from the past, must have spent a lot of time on their foundations and had tremendous root in order to accomplish these great feats. Besides basic horse and stance training another very useful way to develop a strong and stable root is from regular Chi Sao practice.

(The practice of Chi Sao is unique to the Wing Chun system.) By regular practice, one feels what it is like to have their root and structure tested continuously. This is very useful in root training. The constant forward pressure from ones opponent during Chi Sao is a great way to test the root. One must learn to channel this pressure from the structure into the ground, and issue power from the ground though ones structure. If your root is weak one will simply fall over or lose balance. This is the basic and most invaluable skill one should develop in order to advance to higher levels of training in Chi Sao.

In my opinion, one should not concentrate to much on fancy or complicated techniques in the beginning. The focus should be on learning how to root. Fancy hand techniques or combinations may seem impressive to the beginner, but without a solid root all those techniques go out the window. Without a firm foundation, one will not be able to issue any stopping power to one's opponent, or have the ability to use his structure. One will simply have to rely on external factors like speed and brute force to overcome their opponent. In conclusion, without a root, hands have no meaning and are neutralized and nullified. Without root, there is no gung fu.

By Sifu Michael McIlwrath

[Katsu Jin Ken]

:D excellent!! not to long which i like, good info for beginners and vets alike.

[Yoshiyahu]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53543


You will notice this is an old topic...

Many people disbelieve you can root in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma.

[AdrianK]

^
Those people have no understanding of the definition of root then.

You can't root when suspended in mid-air.

But if you're on the ground, there is always root.

[Mr Punch]

Interesting post SC69 (BTW is McIlwrath you? Interesting name - Scots Irish?)

Glad someone linked to the other recent thread too.

My tuppence:

1) Root is important. Rooting in YGKYM is important, possible and useful. However, more important than over-emphasis on root, is emphasis on footwork and when to root and when not to (rooting should be a fleeting instant, as turn-off-and-onable as a punch).

2) Moving in YGKYM or at least applying its principles to your movement is more important than standing there and thinking you're both the immovable object AND the unstoppable force. You can't be an unstoppable force if you don't start in the first place!

3) As Hendrik pointed out in the other thread, there is no word analogous to 'root' in the kuen kuit. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist in wing chun, just that its over-emphasis is wrong.

4) I was always taught turning and stepping drills as soon as I started on SLT: how to apply SLT in fighting. Of course I was taught root too.

5) I was also taught things like, 'Kick with three legs, not with one': I was taught to force my opponent to root and use him to provide me with a good connection to the earth! My kobujutsu teacher seems to be able to develop an internal root somewhere around his hips/the arch created by his thighs. I'm pretty sure, looking at Biu Jee, that this is one of the 'missing' components of a lot of wing chun. Nobody has taught me that, but I am learning to apply it, and I'm sure it's out there somewhere in the world of wing chun.

And further from that point about using your opponent's balance: my contact point could be my shoulder, my elbow, my hand, my wrist - I should be able to root using him wherever I make my bridge.

[Mr Punch]

You can't root when suspended in mid-air.
A straw man will always blow away without a firm root too! Can you find me anyone who said anything like this in that thread?

[Edmund]

^
Those people have no understanding of the definition of root then.

You can't root when suspended in mid-air.

But if you're on the ground, there is always root.

Well *now* I'm not sure what your definition is.

I think just having contact with the ground isn't quite the same as thing.

Someone stumbling around is not in a position to actually fight or even control where they want to go but they are still "on the ground"!

[t_niehoff]

"Root" is another of the old chinese terms that is silly. Attached to the ground? Duh. How are you going to fight if not on the ground?

Boxers, kickboxers, savate fighters, muay thai fighters, etc. all have great punching and kicking power, but when do they talk about "root" or needing to develop a "strong root"? And if that sort of concept is so useful, where are all the great, powerful TCMAists that have used it so successfully?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4Nz1cH4LDU

Where is the "root"?

[Yoshiyahu]

lets get ready to rumble folks....


Niehoff has just thrown a round house kick to face of stonecrusher66 knocking him off his root. MrPunch is standing on side lines ready to chain punch away and he is like the big bad wolf he just blew down the straw man's house. Who can stand against the fierce fighter Terrence with their immovable root. Who can use thier root to knock terrence off his feet?

[Mr Punch]

lets get ready to rumble folks....


Niehoff has just thrown a round house kick to face of stonecrusher66 knocking him off his root. MrPunch is standing on side lines ready to chain punch away and he is like the big bad wolf he just blew down the straw man's house. Who can stand against the fierce fighter Terrence with their immovable root. Who can use thier root to knock terrence off his feet?

LOL, very good.

You can't hit what you can't see - float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!
:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4Nz1cH4LDU

Where is the "root"?



@ 1:40.... what kind of matchup was that????

[Xiao3 Meng4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_QPNf-fYLM&eurl=http://rumsoakedfist.com/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D6%26t%3D4492&feature=player_embedded


Now to sit back and watch the show. :D

[t_niehoff]

@ 1:40.... what kind of matchup was that????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey0UVew1xNc

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_QPNf-fYLM&eurl=http://rumsoakedfist.com/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D6%26t%3D4492&feature=player_embedded


Now to sit back and watch the show. :D

Fantasy. Nonsense. I'm sure it makes money since fantasy and nonsense are always in big demand.

[stonecrusher69]

Interesting post SC69 (BTW is McIlwrath you? Interesting name - Scots Irish?)

Glad someone linked to the other recent thread too.

My tuppence:

1) Root is important. Rooting in YGKYM is important, possible and useful. However, more important than over-emphasis on root, is emphasis on footwork and when to root and when not to (rooting should be a fleeting instant, as turn-off-and-onable as a punch).

2) Moving in YGKYM or at least applying its principles to your movement is more important than standing there and thinking you're both the immovable object AND the unstoppable force. You can't be an unstoppable force if you don't start in the first place!

3) As Hendrik pointed out in the other thread, there is no word analogous to 'root' in the kuen kuit. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist in wing chun, just that its over-emphasis is wrong.

4) I was always taught turning and stepping drills as soon as I started on SLT: how to apply SLT in fighting. Of course I was taught root too.

5) I was also taught things like, 'Kick with three legs, not with one': I was taught to force my opponent to root and use him to provide me with a good connection to the earth! My kobujutsu teacher seems to be able to develop an internal root somewhere around his hips/the arch created by his thighs. I'm pretty sure, looking at Biu Jee, that this is one of the 'missing' components of a lot of wing chun. Nobody has taught me that, but I am learning to apply it, and I'm sure it's out there somewhere in the world of wing chun.

And further from that point about using your opponent's balance: my contact point could be my shoulder, my elbow, my hand, my wrist - I should be able to root using him wherever I make my bridge.

Hi Mr Punch..yes my last name is Mc Ilwrath.It's Irish I'm also part Italian from my mothers side. Glad you liked my article. IMO I've found to many WC'er have a very poor root or not root at all.Which is why I wrote the article. The YJKYM IMO is a poor stance not for fighting only chi gong. I use the J stance sort of like the bik ma stance but one leg is turn in a bit and the square horse both low and high most of the time. To me foor work and root are the same.You most have root when you move and like you said be able to turn it off and one.Turn it one when you hit turn off when you get hit..

[stonecrusher69]

One way to look how a root is used is when you push a car. When you move the car where is the power base comming form? the arm? or the root? root and leg are the same thing.If the car started to roll back you would be able to hold the car with your root now replace the car with a live person.This is using root..

[t_niehoff]

One way to look how a root is used is when you push a car. When you move the car where is the power base comming form? the arm? or the root? root and leg are the same thing.If the car started to roll back you would be able to hold the car with your root now replace the car with a live person.This is using root..

Another way to look at it is if you want to learn how to push a car, then get out and really push a car (or have someone who can push a car really well show you how to do it). You don't need any silly concept of "root" or "rooting" to DO that. That's why boxers, kickboxers, etc. who are really out there "pushing cars" find they don't need to talk about "root".

There are mechanically sound ways to do anything. "Root" doesn't really help explain it, describe it, or do it.

[Yoshiyahu]

Hi Mr Punch..yes my last name is Mc Ilwrath.It's Irish I'm also part Italian from my mothers side. Glad you liked my article. IMO I've found to many WC'er have a very poor root or not root at all.Which is why I wrote the article. The YJKYM IMO is a poor stance not for fighting only chi gong. I use the J stance sort of like the bik ma stance but one leg is turn in a bit and the square horse both low and high most of the time. To me foor work and root are the same.You most have root when you move and like you said be able to turn it off and one.Turn it one when you hit turn off when you get hit..

Is there ever a time where YGKYM can be used in fighting?

[stonecrusher69]

Is there ever a time where YGKYM can be used in fighting?


In The YJKYM you can't move,and in fighting you have to move. It could be used to cover-up the groin say from a kick.Used sort of as a last resort or caught by suprise other then that I don't see any use for it as far as fighting.

[AdrianK]

Well *now* I'm not sure what your definition is.

I think just having contact with the ground isn't quite the same as thing.

Someone stumbling around is not in a position to actually fight or even control where they want to go but they are still "on the ground"!

Uh, the common definition in any major dictionary, as in to become fixed or established.

Having contact with the ground is the same thing.

Root, is like saying punch. Anyone can root. Anyone can punch, but understanding the intricacies of such give way to stronger root, stronger punch.

[t_niehoff]

In The YJKYM you can't move,and in fighting you have to move. It could be used to cover-up the groin say from a kick.Used sort of as a last resort or caught by suprise other then that I don't see any use for it as far as fighting.

From my perspective and IME, the YJKYM is not a stance or a static or immovable positition, it is a "horse", a way of using the (whole) body. And you can step with it, turn with it, sink with it, etc. It is the basis for everything else in WCK. Moreover, in fighting, you sometimes are stepping, sometimes turning, sometimes stationary, etc.

[Yoshiyahu]

In The YJKYM you can't move,and in fighting you have to move. It could be used to cover-up the groin say from a kick.Used sort of as a last resort or caught by suprise other then that I don't see any use for it as far as fighting.

Why do you feel you can not move in YGKYM?

Isn't it possible to lift the knee to cover. To step backwards or sideways from YGKYM?

What about when your inclose. Could YGKYM be used to adminster elbow strikes more effeciently?

[Edmund]

Uh, the common definition in any major dictionary, as in to become fixed or established.

Having contact with the ground is the same thing.

Root, is like saying punch. Anyone can root. Anyone can punch, but understanding the intricacies of such give way to stronger root, stronger punch.


How is that "fixed" to the ground? You're not anchored.

[Yoshiyahu]

How is that "fixed" to the ground? You're not anchored.

Please elaborate on your statement?

Whats your contradicting opinion?

[Edmund]

Please elaborate on your statement?

Whats your contradicting opinion?

AdrianK said anyone not leaping in the air is rooted.

THEN he said the definition is anything fixed to the ground.

I don't want to stick words in his mouth but I think he's saying that everyone is rooted to differing degrees even the most unbalanced person tripping over themselves.

While that may agree with AdrianK's definition of the term, it's not that helpful. The term isn't meant to discuss all the people flying in the air!

*Most* discussions want to contrast between people tripping over themselves and people in a balanced stable posture.

So FFS let's at least put the topic of airborne people aside in the discussion: unrooted = falling over yourself (or if you must include them, the airborne people also are unrooted). Rooted = not falling over yourself.

[AdrianK]

How is that "fixed" to the ground? You're not anchored.

Anchor or Anchored is not a synonym of fixed. So your interpretation of the definition is incorrect.

Definitively fixed can mean, attached(which by extension can mean either connected or bound), made stable or permanent, set or intent upon something.

I would call someone who is stumbling all over themselves as having root, however definitively even if you're stumbling over yourself, there is one part, even as small as a toe or the side of your foot, that is firmly connected to the ground well enough so that you don't down. That root is a variable that if you're stumbling over yourself, changes from point to point, but nonetheless, it is root, by definition. Better described as weak root, but still root.



it's not that helpful. The term isn't meant to discuss all the people flying in the air!

Its actually very helpful if you understand root as something that is a part of life, not a technique. This allows you to look at root as a concept, and apply it to everything you do, instead of just what you're taught to do.



*Most* discussions want to contrast between people tripping over themselves and people in a balanced stable posture.

Those discussions should then discuss the concepts and techniques of rooting as how it relates to the martial arts, and not the definition, or something as abstract and vague as "do you have a root", "you can't root in this position", etc.

Or you could even say, do you have a strong root? Or do you have a weak root? Descriptive terms like that allow you to properly express yourself to other people.

[Edmund]

I would call someone who is stumbling all over themselves as having root, however definitively even if you're stumbling over yourself, there is one part, even as small as a toe or the side of your foot, that is firmly connected to the ground well enough so that you don't down. That root is a variable that if you're stumbling over yourself, changes from point to point, but nonetheless, it is root, by definition. Better described as weak root, but still root.

Its actually very helpful if you understand root as something that is a part of life, not a technique. This allows you to look at root as a concept, and apply it to everything you do, instead of just what you're taught to do.


Well if you think it's helpful, okay.

I just find yours a very liberal and inclusive definition.

[AdrianK]

Well thats because it is a very liberal and inclusive definition. The problem is this - Root as it relates to martial arts is defined in several different ways depending on who you talk to. Because there is not a single agreed term to the definition of root when it comes to martial arts, we need to go back to the definition itself to have any kind of factual description.

If you'd like to define what a good root is, then that is where the more in-depth and helpful descriptions come into play. Maybe we should have a word for good root? For instance, there is a difference between punch and jab, or punch and cross, or punch and hook.

[LSWCTN1]

Another way to look at it is if you want to learn how to push a car, then get out and really push a car (or have someone who can push a car really well show you how to do it). You don't need any silly concept of "root" or "rooting" to DO that. That's why boxers, kickboxers, etc. who are really out there "pushing cars" find they don't need to talk about "root".

There are mechanically sound ways to do anything. "Root" doesn't really help explain it, describe it, or do it.

using your same analogy, would some doing weight (for example) not increse his 'car pushing' skills? by training the attributes of 'car pushing' (strength).

also why do MMA fighters run/skip etc etc is this not to train attributes (endurance)?

i agree with you for the most part about you must train to fight and practise your art by fighting. but the part i disagree on is the 'fighting alone will only improve you' style stance

IMHO wc IS a complete art. the only problems with wc technique is the person using it. however if these individual techniques are practised enough in isolation then they CAN be used in a 'live' situation (sparring/tournaments/street/whatever)

with all due respect i think advocating fighting as the one true way to practice wc is wrong. too much sparring and not enough time on other things will actually diminish your skills. if you learn a technique that is used very infrequently and you spar and spar and spar and you dont use that technique for a while it will eventually leave you. you must practise everything you have been taught, but i do agree that you must spar too


From my perspective and IME, the YJKYM is not a stance or a static or immovable positition, it is a "horse", a way of using the (whole) body. And you can step with it, turn with it, sink with it, etc. It is the basis for everything else in WCK. Moreover, in fighting, you sometimes are stepping, sometimes turning, sometimes stationary, etc.

agreed entirely

[Hendrik]

Why make it such a big deal?

Rooting in Chinese just means the ability to make use of the Ground support at the needed instant.


There are variaty of ways of that making use of the Ground Support.


BTW, the way how Taiji Tap/making use of Ground are different compare with WCK making use of Ground ; due to the different structure or the platform of the art.

Thus, importing Taiji or other art's even the Hung Gar iron wire will for sure screw up WCK cultivation if one is not clear on what is what.




EI: a simple question is so how is the so called rooting support the Chang Dai Lek or Force under the elbow? Will in general the Taiji type of rooting lead one to develop Chang Dai Lek? Will Iron Wire ?


For some, what is Chang Dai Lek or of WCK's trade mark? how is it develop? one could in general screen off to know if it is WCK or not via examine does the art got Chang Dai Lek.

[stonecrusher69]

Why do you feel you can not move in YGKYM?

Isn't it possible to lift the knee to cover. To step backwards or sideways from YGKYM?

What about when your inclose. Could YGKYM be used to adminster elbow strikes more effeciently?


if you step backwards or sideways or anyother way is that the YGKYM?

[Hendrik]

That's why boxers, kickboxers, etc. who are really out there "pushing cars" find they don't need to talk about "root".

There are mechanically sound ways to do anything. "Root" doesn't really help explain it, describe it, or do it.


That is because you have no clue on what the Chinese means by "root" or "rooting".


MT kicker root different then a boxer. pushing a car root different then MT kicker.... with the term Rooting, if one knows one can be very specifically communicate what type of root. and that you are clueless.

[stonecrusher69]

:D excellent!! not to long which i like, good info for beginners and vets alike.


Glad you liked it..

[Hendrik]

Rooting , in general there are two different type of rooting. and from these two different types more derivative are given birth to.

Thus, Rooting is something DEAD similar to the Root of a Tree. It is a live and dynamic.

[stonecrusher69]

Rooting , in general there are two different type of rooting. and from these two different types more derivative are given birth to.

Thus, Rooting is something DEAD similar to the Root of a Tree. It is a live and dynamic.

It would be nice if you can write something on these two types of rooting your talking about.

[Hendrik]

It would be nice if you can write something on these two types of rooting your talking about.

I would let others who knows WCK to share first. That way I can learn also.


and


most of so called Rooting or Structure training of YJKYM doesnt even work when one stand on the top of a wrestling mat.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

YJKYM is a training tool to get you to "feel" your root. As SLT is the only stationary (that is you dont move the legs) form, rooting is introduced in the beginning because it is somethin you need from the very beginning. SLT is the "beginning" of the WC system so why not learn all the tools including rooting at the beginning of the system. YJKYM isnt a fighting stance its a training stance. If you spar in YJKYM your much much better than me.

[Hendrik]

1, YJKYM is a training tool to get you to "feel" your root.

2, As SLT is the only stationary (that is you dont move the legs) form, .




Your idea above is a contradiction; and the root cause of a serious WCK problem.


Again, similar in the WuZu Vesus WCK Chi sau thread some with CRITICAL THINKING might think what I said doesnt make any sense.

Silence and all these stuffs doesnt make any sense with CRITICAL LOGICAL THINKING because it is not about THINKING but KNOWing.


A nature one piece trying to describe with multiple segments and every blind keep speculating with what they touches. and all are blind.

Just some thoughts.

[AdrianK]

Yes lets all stop thinking and start knowing :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Anyone like to translate what GM Chen Xiao says at 1.20/1.42 ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28


Is is about "rooting" into ground....etc?

Or is it about the six or eight directional vector force?

[stonecrusher69]

Anyone like to translate what GM Chen Xiao says at 1.20/1.42 ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28


Is is about "rooting" into ground....etc?

Or is it about the six or eight directional vector force?

I have no audio, but I can see from when Sifu Chen was being pushed( standing on leg) Sifu Chen was able to redirect the force from his partner back to him ,so in essence he was pushing himself. other times he sifu Chen was directing the force into his root and into the ground.

[Hendrik]

I have no audio,


but I can see from when Sifu Chen was being pushed( standing on leg)


Sifu Chen was able to redirect the force from his partner back to him ,so in essence he was pushing himself.


other times he sifu Chen was directing the force into his root and into the ground.



Is what you think what he is doing? Find out.

You see, cooking sand cannot make rice. A wrongly train YJKYM, SLT/SNT disregard how sound is the theory or Sifu says is a kissed of death. IMHO

[Hendrik]

here is a chat between my close WCner friend and me.



Take it for what it worth.


---------------------

Hendrik,


this is probably a better clip from Chen XW with some more explaining and thanks for the subtitle too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J85ARLul9h8&feature=related

However, I feel that Ju Dai Tong's demo has a different emphasis. Opponent's force does not even enter the body, so what root? what 8 face support?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj1DoQ04sx8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EBcwpvJyuk&NR=1


------------------------------


DY,


The CXW is the basic.

The Ju Dai Tong is the Hua (disolve) state after the CXW.

Thus, it is said, The Young Chuan is not the root, the waist is not the master, the spine similar to willow, one hand spread become thousands of hand.

One cant jump step from the CXW state to JDT state. It is impossible. only when one is very very fluent with the 6/8 force vectors one let go into the silence and enter the Hua State.

Thus, The Using Silence to lead action of WCK is not as what the general think. it is the Hua State stuffs.

But now, if one doesnt even know the 6/8 direction force basic stuffs and stuck with the stupid rooting concept, it is hopeless.

[Hendrik]

I am sorry if I shattered some of your's dream on the rooting. IMHO, to know now is better then putting another 10 years and found out later it cant sustain a BJJ take down. Face it most YJKYM or SLT training was going a wrong direction and it wont work.

Best Regards

[Violent Designs]

I am sorry if I shattered some of your's dream on the rooting. IMHO, to know now is better then putting another 10 years and found out later it cant sustain a BJJ take down. Face it most YJKYM or SLT training was going a wrong direction and it wont work.

Best Regards

BJJ takedowns suck.

[Hendrik]

BJJ takedowns suck.


That is their issues.

The issue here is if one has a reasonable training which can deal with it instead of lots of lips service in the name of TCMA or sifu says or .....etc which doesnt work even in the first order.

Do you have a solution?

[Pacman]

I am sorry if I shattered some of your's dream on the rooting. IMHO, to know now is better then putting another 10 years and found out later it cant sustain a BJJ take down. Face it most YJKYM or SLT training was going a wrong direction and it wont work.

Best Regards

you misunderstand. "rooting" doesnt make you invincible against all takedowns and it is not supposed to, but it can help.

lowering your center of gravity and angling properly can only help against takedowns

[Hendrik]

you misunderstand. "rooting" doesnt make you invincible against all takedowns and it is not supposed to, but it can help.

lowering your center of gravity and angling properly can only help against takedowns



1, no one talk about invincible here.



2,
want to share what is rooting? how is it work? and how is it help in a dynamic situation? and how do you root with your YJKYM? and SNT/SLT?

[MysteriousPower]

The people I've played hand with who talk about rooting always do the same thing:

1. They demonstrate rooting from their format of playing such as chi sao. They don't seem to deviate because their rules are only true in their equations.

2. They uprooted me only when I was touching them.

I challenge the rooters of this thread to put sparring gear on and go at it with people instead of just doing their normal format. It's not so easy to uproot someone who isn't giving you a bridge to do so.

[Violent Designs]

That is their issues.

The issue here is if one has a reasonable training which can deal with it instead of lots of lips service in the name of TCMA or sifu says or .....etc which doesnt work even in the first order.

Do you have a solution?

Your posts show you have very little understanding of traditional BJJ techniques, strengths and weaknesses.

[Hendrik]

Your posts show you have very little understanding of traditional BJJ techniques, strengths and weaknesses.


ok.

Please enlightent me.

[Yoshiyahu]

In my opinion Rooting in Wing Chun is not designed to uproot but it is design to generate power in your strikes, add jing to your strikes and give you a stable bridge that can deflect or intercept a hard attack.



The people I've played hand with who talk about rooting always do the same thing:

1. They demonstrate rooting from their format of playing such as chi sao. They don't seem to deviate because their rules are only true in their equations.

2. They uprooted me only when I was touching them.

I challenge the rooters of this thread to put sparring gear on and go at it with people instead of just doing their normal format. It's not so easy to uproot someone who isn't giving you a bridge to do so.

[stonecrusher69]

In my opinion Rooting in Wing Chun is not designed to uproot but it is design to generate power in your strikes, add jing to your strikes and give you a stable bridge that can deflect or intercept a hard attack.

These are all good points. A strong root can be used in many ways including up-rooting.

[Hendrik]

Yoshiyahu In my opinion Rooting in Wing Chun is not designed to uproot but it is design to generate power in your strikes, add jing to your strikes and give you a stable bridge that can deflect or intercept a hard attack.


Great!






Originally Posted by Violent Designs View Post
Your posts show you have very little understanding of traditional BJJ techniques, strengths and weaknesses.


Excellent!






stonecrusher69
These are all good points. A strong root can be used in many ways including up-rooting.

Super!







Originally Posted by Pacman View Post
you misunderstand. "rooting" doesnt make you invincible against all takedowns and it is not supposed to, but it can help.

lowering your center of gravity and angling properly can only help against takedowns


marvelous!








Now, could anyone tell me what is this ROOTING is about


and how is it usefull at all as in the following clip?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4




Until then, as a customer, I love to buy yours product --- ROOTING. But what is it? What is it for?





Please enligthen me.

Thanks.

[Hendrik]

Also, I am just very curious about Rooting when dealing with these Kyokushin?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaCZ3amOm_U



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk&feature=related

[Lee Chiang Po]

Rooting is as simple as taking breath. If you stand erect and push a heavy object, you will exert force in one direction and then in the oposite direction equally. You will shove yourself over backwards. By placing a foot behind you, you become rooted. Simple as that.
You can improve this root by dropping your center of gravity and aligning your limbs. When you brace like that, the force that is being equal in the opposite direction will then deflect back and follow course with the original direction of force. I feel that it is safe to assume that your force is taken in half when you are not rooted, and the simple act of bracing or rooting will focus all of your expended energy in one direction, thereby, increasing the power of your hand thrusts.

[Hendrik]

Rooting is as simple as taking breath. If you stand erect and push a heavy object, you will exert force in one direction and then in the oposite direction equally. You will shove yourself over backwards. By placing a foot behind you, you become rooted. Simple as that.
You can improve this root by dropping your center of gravity and aligning your limbs. When you brace like that, the force that is being equal in the opposite direction will then deflect back and follow course with the original direction of force. I feel that it is safe to assume that your force is taken in half when you are not rooted, and the simple act of bracing or rooting will focus all of your expended energy in one direction, thereby, increasing the power of your hand thrusts.

If that is rooting, then everyone knows including the WCner to the BJJ, and in fact the Bjj might know even more since they are the expert in push and pull and submissive.... So ?

What is big deal about rooting and how to do it in YJKYM?


for me, I would not buy a product which sell me nothing. So, I hope someone answer my questions above on the product they are marketing.

[Pacman]

want to share what is rooting? how is it work? and how is it help in a dynamic situation? and how do you root with your YJKYM? and SNT/SLT?


Rooting does not mean you have to remain completely stationary for the entire duration of the fight.

Rooting refers to the ability to position your body in such a way that a force coming at you (whether back through your own fist or via a guy trying to take you down) is redirected toward the ground.

the tucked pelvis of YJKYM straightens the spine and the angles of your feet and knees redirect force towards the ground. if you are rooted correctly and you punch a bag, you will feel the stress of the back hitting back at you in your legs. if you are not rooted you will feel your upper body being pushed back.

if the force is directed towards your leg and to the ground, you can also push back from the ground, which for argument's sake is very solid. this is why it is often said that punching power comes from the legs.




So you can hop around while you fight, and when it is time to strike, you can take root and "grip the ground" with your feet for that strike.

or when someone tries to take you down, you can sink yourself and lower your center of gravity to withstand the tackle.

t_niehoff's example of kickboxers etc having root because they are all touching the ground is foolish at best. rooting is not about standing on the ground, it is about the redirection of force

[Pacman]

Great!


and how is it usefull at all as in the following clip?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4




first off you have to be careful with these types of clips. they say this vs. that and you assume this guy is a KF master because someone labeled him as such. then he is defeated and the vid is used to discredit.

gracie charged at him and tackled him basically. not very skilled. against most people who dont know how to fight (including this guy) a barrage will work.

this is also why unskilled chain punching can also work against someone who doesnt know squat about fighting.

rooting could help in this instance for resisting the double leg take down. simple as that.

if you want to know how utlize the concept against a takedown, see your local qualified KF instructor

[Yoshiyahu]

Pacman and Lee Chiang Po...Excellent responses.

Hendrik when you speak of Rooting are you talking about connection or opening of the meridans?

What are you getting at. Are you looking for an internal answer that goes deeper than the simple workings of tendons, joints, bones and muscles?

Interesting Articles

Robert Chu's Opinion on Rooting in Wing Chun:


With this basic posture aligned, you should try a simple test of alignment with the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma (Yee Character pinching goat horse), the basic stance practiced in Wing Chun. First, you should try to stand when a force or pressure is exerted upon you. For example, let's say a person puts their palm on your chest and presses with continuous force. The pressure should not send you flying back, but should root you to the ground. You cannot develop this power if you are leaning backwards like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or "hunchbacked" like Quasimodo of Notre Dame. You need to relax and sink and maintain the proper alignment in doing these tests. You equalize the pressure exerted by adjustmenting your balance and pushing forward with the pelvis. The buttocks and the quadriceps are brought into play and also help with this equalization. You should not be as limp as a noodle when relaxed, nor as rigid as a board. You have to have a Yin & Yang, a dynamic interplay of the soft and hard to be able to do this.


This first test often upsets people who think that the basic stance is not a fighting stance at all, and not strong in the face of frontal force. What I write here is contrary to the majority of Wing Chun practitioners's experience. Most who lean backwards or are hunch over like a patient sick with pulmonary emphysema will fail this test. Some will have practiced Wing Chun kuen for many years and not be able to pass this simple little test. I consider this a shame. The basic stance, Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma, is practiced about fifty percent of the time in Wing Chun training. It is used throughout the first form, as the beginning and end of every section in the second and third form, the dummy set, and the knife techniques, and and forms the basis for many partner exercises as well.

Failing this test may suggest that your lineage is stressing form over function. My motto is "stress function over form and allow application to also be your sifu". The benefit to learning something like this is that you can see if you are actually using power with your entire body, rather than from the limbs alone. The key here is using the pelvis and making sure that the buttocks is ahead of the heels.



In the beginning, I suggest that you stand in Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma with hands held at the sides first. Later, you can do these tests with variations. Instead of pushing on the sternum, you can have hand postures of double Tan Sao position (Dispersing Arms, test one, variation 1), double Fuk Sao position (Subduing Arms, test one, variation 2), and double Gum Sao position (Pressing Arms, test one, variation 3). You can then test the structure by pushing on the arm position. With this, you can see if the arms are ideally connected with the torso. The idea is the feet grip the ground and support the legs, the legs support the knees, the knees support the thighs, the thighs transfer power to the pelvis, the pelvis to the waist, the waist to the torso and from the there, the torso connects to the shoulder. From the shoulder, the arms connect to the elbow, the elbow to the wrist, and finally to the hands. From controlling your intent and having awareness and sensitivity to adjust for changes, you should be able to easily have this feeling of being rooted.




HOWEVER HENDRIK DOESN'T BELIEVE WING CHUN HAS A ROOT

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923987&postcount=5


HENDRIK MAY BE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION CONCERNING THE MERIDANS
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924001&postcount=7



Now my post in the past in response to Hendrik the Phatom Menace


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924219&postcount=26

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924354&postcount=33

I hope you enjoy your journey...your about to go down a rabbit hole!

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;932854]
Hendrik when you speak of Rooting are you talking about connection or opening of the meridans?




Everything is so clear in the previous posts and clips with Chen XW and all.


Either you dont read my previous posts or you are highly absent minded. :D






Here I repeat myself toward you again,

Now, could you tell me what is this ROOTING is about, instead of posting a lists of things?

such as this

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924219&postcount=26



and how is your lists of things usefull at all as in the following clip?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4




Until then, as a customer, I love to buy yours product --- ROOTING. But what is it? What is it for?



Please enligthen me.

Thanks.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yuen Kay Shan Yiu Ku - (Important formula)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Specific7


Hendrik What does this mean?




[QUOTE]



Everything is so clear in the previous posts and clips with Chen XW and all.


Either you dont read my previous posts or you are highly absent minded. :D






Here I repeat myself toward you again,

Now, could you tell me what is this ROOTING is about, instead of posting a lists of things?

such as this

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924219&postcount=26



and how is your lists of things usefull at all as in the following clip?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4




Until then, as a customer, I love to buy yours product --- ROOTING. But what is it? What is it for?



Please enligthen me.

Thanks.

[Mr Punch]

Rooting does not mean you have to remain completely stationary for the entire duration of the fight.

Rooting refers to the ability to position your body in such a way that a force coming at you (whether back through your own fist or via a guy trying to take you down) is redirected toward the ground.

the tucked pelvis of YJKYM straightens the spine and the angles of your feet and knees redirect force towards the ground. if you are rooted correctly and you punch a bag, you will feel the stress of the back hitting back at you in your legs. if you are not rooted you will feel your upper body being pushed back.

if the force is directed towards your leg and to the ground, you can also push back from the ground, which for argument's sake is very solid. this is why it is often said that punching power comes from the legs.




So you can hop around while you fight, and when it is time to strike, you can take root and "grip the ground" with your feet for that strike.Very nicely put. We agree on something.


or when someone tries to take you down, you can sink yourself and lower your center of gravity to withstand the tackle...Uh-oh... it's going pear-shaped... could we agree to get a 'try to' in front of 'withstand' in there?


t_niehoff's example of kickboxers etc having root because they are all touching the ground is foolish at best. rooting is not about standing on the ground, it is about the redirection of force

Nah, it's not foolish. Just because Thai boxers etc don't talk in terms of force vectors and redirection of force and all that pseudo-scientific bollocks doesn't mean they aren't doing it. Ever tried pushing over a Thai boxer while he's kicking? A kyokushin guy in the middle of slow kicking practise? Ever tried one of those nifty little wing chun stamp kicks to the knee of the post-leg of a TKD guy in full kick? They have root (and you'd get your head taken off).

[Mr Punch]

first off you have to be careful with these types of clips. they say this vs. that and you assume this guy is a KF master because someone labeled him as such. then he is defeated and the vid is used to discredit.Jason Delucia's history is easy enough to find. He wasn't what I'd call a master back then, but better than a lot of mouthboxers, and certainly versed enough in various basics.


gracie charged at him and tackled him basically. not very skilled. against most people who dont know how to fight (including this guy) a barrage will work. ****ing lol, I still don't get how people are making this kind of ****ing pants-on-head stupid remark! :D That tackle wasn't skilled? He's used that against people of a lot higher skill level than Delucia was, as have many many other fighters. The tackle is a basic tech, sure, and one with a history as long as the human species, but so what? Many strikers can't get off their basic techs to counter it so what's your point (and these strikers’ techs are a lot quicker).


rooting could help in this instance for resisting the double leg take down. simple as that.Yep, and it would probably help him get his single or just pick you up and drop you on your head. You’ve never practiced against a wrestler or BJJer have you?


if you want to know how utlize the concept against a takedown, see your local qualified KF instructorLOL, yep do. That’ll teach you the basics of this mysterious ‘rooting’… then go and practice it against some qualified grappler so you know what not to do.

[Yoshiyahu]

can someone share more about the root in Wing Chun

[Hendrik]

Yuen Kay Shan Yiu Ku - (Important formula)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Specific7


Hendrik What does this mean?



[QUOTE=Hendrik;932866]


How can I know? Ask those who post it.

[Edmund]

HOWEVER HENDRIK DOESN'T BELIEVE WING CHUN HAS A ROOT

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923987&postcount=5


HENDRIK MAY BE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION CONCERNING THE MERIDANS
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924001&postcount=7
..


Do you have to obsess over Hendrik's stuff again and keep revisiting it?
It was pretty screwed up the first time.

All people have their own definition of rooting. Some of them don't even make much sense within their own logic sometimes. Nevertheless it's clear you can't just say one idea is right or another is wrong.

Look, I'm going to give my def. and see if it helps:

1. It's force. Simple physics is if someone is pushing you and you aren't moving, you are supplying force in the opposite direction that is equal. AND Friction from the ground is equal as well. That's the base that you are sitting on. If it's alignment or just being tense doesn't really matter. Obviously tensing takes more effort.

Lowering your centre of gravity (COG) makes it easier to supply the force in the opposite direction. As does lowering your stance.

2. When you go to punch someone or push or pull them it is force as well. If they move it's because you overcame any resistant force.

3. When someone takes you down they usually aren't even trying to overcome your force. They are trying to break your posture. That makes you fall over. It takes a lot less force. e.g. I pick your foot off the ground and you can't balance on the other one so good. You can lower your COG all you like at that point and it won't help.

Actually having done a few years of judo now, I can say there's lots of different ways to take a fight to the ground so there's no one solution to counter them. But the best solution is usually to get your favourite controlling grip or hold.

4. When you deflect force you are actually just pushing in a different direction. This is what happens in a lot of taiji. Rather than just holding off someone's push (providing the exact same force in the opposite direction), you push actively in a different direction. This breaks the opponent's posture and you don't have to be that strong. You break their posture and the force they can supply or impart on you is reduced.

Lots of stuff can break their posture. Doesn't even have to be a push. You could twist them or block their legs or whatever.

5. Because you don't *need* a lot of force to take someone to the ground or defend a take down, it's not that important to be able to impart your strongest force, push or pull. We'd all take a car pushing posture if that was the case. It's far more important to be in a ready posture that can react to what's happening and adjust to or apply a force in the best direction.

Same goes for striking. You could take a wide solid stance for throwing a huge punch but you'd be vulnerable to all sorts of counter attack. Far better to take a compromise between mobility and power.

[Pacman]

Very nicely put. We agree on something.

Uh-oh... it's going pear-shaped... could we agree to get a 'try to' in front of 'withstand' in there?



sure. rooting is not the only thing you should do, but it is a component




Nah, it's not foolish. Just because Thai boxers etc don't talk in terms of force vectors and redirection of force and all that pseudo-scientific bollocks doesn't mean they aren't doing it. Ever tried pushing over a Thai boxer while he's kicking? A kyokushin guy in the middle of slow kicking practise? Ever tried one of those nifty little wing chun stamp kicks to the knee of the post-leg of a TKD guy in full kick? They have root (and you'd get your head taken off).

in the styles you mentioned, neither their punching nor kicking techniques discuss adjusting the body to use the ground

[Pacman]

****ing lol, I still don't get how people are making this kind of ****ing pants-on-head stupid remark! :D That tackle wasn't skilled?

let me explain. im sure he is skilled in his double leg takedown...and i am sure he can make it work on many people more skilled than the guy in the vid.

what i meant by unskilled was that he basically charged at him head first...head and neck wide open for a hit


Yep, and it would probably help him get his single or just pick you up and drop you on your head. You’ve never practiced against a wrestler or BJJer have you?

actually i wrestled for 4 years in high school and made varsity starting my first year as a freshman. i came in 2nd in state so i know about wrestling. i also have studied bagua so i do know about throws and how rooting comes into play

i apologize for not being attached to gracie's dong

[Pacman]

Robert Chu said:


Most who lean backwards or are hunch over like a patient sick with pulmonary emphysema will fail this test.

thats funny. if robert chu is a student of the Yuen Kay San/ Sum Nung lineage, then he should be adopting the hunched back and concave chest posture.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It is like I said, rooting is as simple as breathing, and it is also just as necessary. The whole purpose of YGKYM is that it is a stance where you can maintain this rooting even as you move about quickly. I have to admit, it is a very uncomfortable stance and appears and feels clumsy to the new trainee. Just like most of it. Sil Lim is very clumsy at first until the trainee learns that it is not really a stationary form. Not in the way most think of it anyway. This is why it is so important to practice this stance in it's different variations while training your footwork. Without it, your WC is not complete and is not strong. Whether you are inching, moving up quickly, or running, as long as you stay in stance you are rooted as such. Jumping about like a boxer is dangerous. A quick rush by an opponent will catch you in a poor balance and not rooted as such. You can get bowled right over. Remember, when a boxer goes down, his opponent goes to a neutral corner. In a steet confrontation there are no neutral corners.
Footwork is extremely important. When you are chasing an opponent you move quickly forward until you are approaching range and then you angle to violate his center line while maintaining your own. When you are moving away from an opponent you do so at angles when possible, which takes you out of his center line and thus out of his line of force. You need to be able to do this while maintaining solid rooting. Forward, backward, sideways, just about any angle you choose to move, you need to train this while in YGKYM so that you learn to stay rooted.
People are teaching WC and yet have no concept of rooting at all. This is so important that it should be the very first thing a practitioner should have learned. It is the foundation of Wing Chun. The best way to do this is to work with a partner and chase one another about a very large space while in YGKYM. Staying rooted while doing so, chasing one another back and forth. You learn to pursue, he learns to evade, then you switch roles. You can forget about all the parler tricks that people are showing in video clips because it is not useful at all. I have a parlor trick that I used to wow people with. The largest and strongest man alive can not lift me up off the floor while I am in a simple standing position. It is a simple parlor trick, yet completely impossible to do.

[Pacman]

you can be hop around and still utilize rooting skills

if you stand like a potted plant, your offense will be easily neutralized by your opponents footwork if he simply circles you.

your defense will be all the more difficult as you are a sitting duck

[Hendrik]

first off you have to be careful with these types of clips. they say this vs. that and you assume this guy is a KF master because someone labeled him as such. then he is defeated and the vid is used to discredit.

gracie charged at him and tackled him basically. not very skilled. against most people who dont know how to fight (including this guy) a barrage will work.

this is also why unskilled chain punching can also work against someone who doesnt know squat about fighting.

rooting could help in this instance for resisting the double leg take down. simple as that.

if you want to know how utlize the concept against a takedown, see your local qualified KF instructor


Thanks for your view!

[Hendrik]

Robert Chu said:



thats funny. if robert chu is a student of the Yuen Kay San/ Sum Nung lineage, then he should be adopting the hunched back and concave chest posture.



what is the benifit of Hunched back and concave chest posture?

[Pacman]

the idea is that with a straight back you

1. have a higher CG
2. are already completely extended

with a higher CG you are less mobile in your footwork...you will be slower to move in any direction. try for yourself. adopt the straight back, flat footed weight on the rear leg, straight arm out posture of some WC lineages like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDhuX1DY

now try to move forward quickly. you will find yourself having to lean forward, lower your CG, and shift your weight to the front before you can move

this is opposed to the hunched back posture where you are already leaning forward with your weight on the balls of your toes. this is more similar to wrestlers (although not as low, they bend a lot at the waist), who is able to shoot forward quickly.


with a straight back you are also completely extended. with a hunched backa nd concave chest, your body is coiled like a spring ready to extend. this is relevant for striking as well as footwork.

look at the guy in the vid. if he wants to strike iwth his lead hand he needs to retract it first. he really only has one weapon, which is his rear hand. he is already cutting himself short with respect to attacking

if i were fighting him i would know that his rear hand is his main weapon. id also know that he is completely immoble. id use footwork to circle him and avoid that hand

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post Lee I feel many on this forum can learn a thing or two from you...keep up the good work...



It is like I said, rooting is as simple as breathing, and it is also just as necessary. The whole purpose of YGKYM is that it is a stance where you can maintain this rooting even as you move about quickly. I have to admit, it is a very uncomfortable stance and appears and feels clumsy to the new trainee. Just like most of it. Sil Lim is very clumsy at first until the trainee learns that it is not really a stationary form. Not in the way most think of it anyway. This is why it is so important to practice this stance in it's different variations while training your footwork. Without it, your WC is not complete and is not strong. Whether you are inching, moving up quickly, or running, as long as you stay in stance you are rooted as such. Jumping about like a boxer is dangerous. A quick rush by an opponent will catch you in a poor balance and not rooted as such. You can get bowled right over. Remember, when a boxer goes down, his opponent goes to a neutral corner. In a steet confrontation there are no neutral corners.
Footwork is extremely important. When you are chasing an opponent you move quickly forward until you are approaching range and then you angle to violate his center line while maintaining your own. When you are moving away from an opponent you do so at angles when possible, which takes you out of his center line and thus out of his line of force. You need to be able to do this while maintaining solid rooting. Forward, backward, sideways, just about any angle you choose to move, you need to train this while in YGKYM so that you learn to stay rooted.
People are teaching WC and yet have no concept of rooting at all. This is so important that it should be the very first thing a practitioner should have learned. It is the foundation of Wing Chun. The best way to do this is to work with a partner and chase one another about a very large space while in YGKYM. Staying rooted while doing so, chasing one another back and forth. You learn to pursue, he learns to evade, then you switch roles. You can forget about all the parler tricks that people are showing in video clips because it is not useful at all. I have a parlor trick that I used to wow people with. The largest and strongest man alive can not lift me up off the floor while I am in a simple standing position. It is a simple parlor trick, yet completely impossible to do.

[Hendrik]

the idea is that with a straight back you

1. have a higher CG
2. are already completely extended

with a higher CG you are less mobile in your footwork...you will be slower to move in any direction. try for yourself. adopt the straight back, flat footed weight on the rear leg, straight arm out posture of some WC lineages like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDhuX1DY

now try to move forward quickly. you will find yourself having to lean forward, lower your CG, and shift your weight to the front before you can move

this is opposed to the hunched back posture where you are already leaning forward with your weight on the balls of your toes. this is more similar to wrestlers (although not as low, they bend a lot at the waist), who is able to shoot forward quickly.


with a straight back you are also completely extended. with a hunched backa nd concave chest, your body is coiled like a spring ready to extend. this is relevant for striking as well as footwork.

look at the guy in the vid. if he wants to strike iwth his lead hand he needs to retract it first. he really only has one weapon, which is his rear hand. he is already cutting himself short with respect to attacking

if i were fighting him i would know that his rear hand is his main weapon. id also know that he is completely immoble. id use footwork to circle him and avoid that hand



This is a good reason however it comes with an extremely costly payment long term. and it also limit one's progress. IMHO.


Thus, the Kidney Qi return to origin Qigong was introduced into the system to neutralized the defect or damage cause.



Sure, i could be wrong.

[punchdrunk]

hey maybe ther's a difference between how to stand when fighting and when doing snt?

[Hendrik]

hey maybe ther's a difference between how to stand when fighting and when doing snt?

Doesnt making any sense isnt it?

[Pacman]

This is a good reason however it comes with an extremely costly payment long term. and it also limit one's progress. IMHO.


Thus, the Kidney Qi return to origin Qigong was introduced into the system to neutralized the defect or damage cause.



Sure, i could be wrong.

what does this have to do with Qigong and how is this posture costly?

[AdrianK]

thats funny. if robert chu is a student of the Yuen Kay San/ Sum Nung lineage, then he should be adopting the hunched back and concave chest posture.

Sifu Robert Chu has been a student of several wing chun lineages and martial arts, he's not just an instructor in YKS.



with a higher CG you are less mobile in your footwork...you will be slower to move in any direction.

Speed of a straightforward technique like movement is really a moot point.

Countless Wing chun people try to justify that a hook is inefficient and ineffective in comparison to a vertical punch, but it makes no ****ing difference if the guy is faster at throwing the hook than you are at throwing your vertical punch.

Speed is a physical and mental attribute that can be trained. Comparing the speed of one technique to another is even more ridiculous when you consider that timing is ultimately more important.

[Hendrik]

what does this have to do with Qigong and how is this posture costly?

The posture doesnt follow the rule of nature of human body. in fact, elbow to the center line compremise long term health big time. Thus, a long term conditioning in this way create health issue.

As I have heard, the excercise, I would not call it qigong , was introduce by late GM SN to the system for health reason.

I could be wrong.

[AdrianK]

The posture doesnt follow the rule of nature of human body

What is the "rule of nature of human body" exactly? And can I find this so-called rule published anywhere except this forum?

[Hendrik]

What is the "rule of nature of human body" exactly? And can I find this so-called rule published anywhere except this forum?


Something extremely simple and I only share with those TRUE WCNER who is humble and humanistic.

[Lee Chiang Po]

you can be hop around and still utilize rooting skills

if you stand like a potted plant, your offense will be easily neutralized by your opponents footwork if he simply circles you.

your defense will be all the more difficult as you are a sitting duck

Pacman, one does not remain standing in place simply because you are in YGKYM. There are 7 different positions of that basic stance You can move quickly in any direction and remain rooted. Hopping about takes you off your balance and makes you vulnerable. If you were to remain stationary you would become a bowling pin at best. What makes you feel that you have to remain in a fixed positon? I can not run fast, but I can run full out while in YGKYM. I can run sideways, backwards, forwards, and any other angle I want to move in. And I can do so with one foot firmly planted at all times, just not always in the same spot. It requires you train this footwork. It will not seek you out.

[Hendrik]

you can be hop around and still utilize rooting skills

if you stand like a potted plant, your offense will be easily neutralized by your opponents footwork if he simply circles you.

your defense will be all the more difficult as you are a sitting duck

Pacman, one does not remain standing in place simply because you are in YGKYM. There are 7 different positions of that basic stance You can move quickly in any direction and remain rooted. Hopping about takes you off your balance and makes you vulnerable. If you were to remain stationary you would become a bowling pin at best. What makes you feel that you have to remain in a fixed positon? I can not run fast, but I can run full out while in YGKYM. I can run sideways, backwards, forwards, and any other angle I want to move in. And I can do so with one foot firmly planted at all times, just not always in the same spot. It requires you train this footwork. It will not seek you out.


Lee,

To be real honest, I dont believe in the one foot firmly planted at all times type of stuffs. In fact, it doesnt work because that is not nature, it doesnt flow, it is a conditional state. it cannot be unconditional.

as soon as ond need to sustain any conditional state, one is trap by the condition one needs or defend.


As I mention in my previous post, the so called rooting is just 1/6 of the whole story. not to mention, there are two catagories on rooting. without knowing these, the training is always conditional and thus it might works well in demo but not real time because it is always conditional. and one always has to take care of that conditional before even doing anything. thus, it is no suprise to see a well train kung fu man get take down by a 3 months junior mma because one is busying trying to keep a certain condition.

The Chinese ancestors said, Heaven and Man becomes non dual. That is unconditional, and that is also the reason one needs to enter into Silence. because only in Silence, one can let go and let God or Flow with bound less.

when there is nothing to defense, that is when the real game starts.... when there is no pull back that is where reality is. same thing with Oyama's Kyokushin, but WCK called it Silence.

all these rooting stuffs are just trying to walk with a chair. and those who knows how to walk let go of the chair because the chair itself is a burden.


Does an eagle root? sure. it needs that to fly but it doesnt stand with one leg in order to fly.

Just some thougths.

[Pacman]

Sifu Robert Chu has been a student of several wing chun lineages and martial arts, he's not just an instructor in YKS.




Speed of a straightforward technique like movement is really a moot point.

Countless Wing chun people try to justify that a hook is inefficient and ineffective in comparison to a vertical punch, but it makes no ****ing difference if the guy is faster at throwing the hook than you are at throwing your vertical punch.

Speed is a physical and mental attribute that can be trained. Comparing the speed of one technique to another is even more ridiculous when you consider that timing is ultimately more important.

i understand what you are saying. a component of perceived speed is reaction time etc.

however, when we talk about actual speed we really do not need to overanalyze this. think...why do runners start in a crouched position? why do football linemen start at crouched position ready to explode forward?

if you start from a straight position and then attempt to move forward you will have to shift your weight, lower your CG, etc etc before you can move.

[Hendrik]

GM Robert knows the issue because he is a TCM doctor.

[Pacman]

you can be hop around and still utilize rooting skills

if you stand like a potted plant, your offense will be easily neutralized by your opponents footwork if he simply circles you.

your defense will be all the more difficult as you are a sitting duck

Pacman, one does not remain standing in place simply because you are in YGKYM. There are 7 different positions of that basic stance You can move quickly in any direction and remain rooted. Hopping about takes you off your balance and makes you vulnerable. If you were to remain stationary you would become a bowling pin at best. What makes you feel that you have to remain in a fixed positon? I can not run fast, but I can run full out while in YGKYM. I can run sideways, backwards, forwards, and any other angle I want to move in. And I can do so with one foot firmly planted at all times, just not always in the same spot. It requires you train this footwork. It will not seek you out.

i mentioned hopping and potted plants because somehwere in this thread someone said that you shouldnt 'hop around like a boxer' because you will not be rooted

it was a hyperbole, of cuorse i know people move around in ygkm, but some forms of ygkm and WC lineages have the person flatfooted and even though you can step in many directions you are still not very mobile.

[AdrianK]

Something extremely simple and I only share with those TRUE WCNER who is humble and humanistic.

LOL... okay buddy. :D



however, when we talk about actual speed we really do not need to overanalyze this. think...why do runners start in a crouched position? why do football linemen start at crouched position ready to explode forward?

They're starting in those positions because it is the best known possible ways to move yourself forward in a singular direction. Its application has much less to do with fighting. I'm not saying that the crouched position isn't advantageous, i'm just saying its not the only way, and its not necessarily the *best* way, a best way is impossible to achieve in martial arts. There are good ways and there are bad ways. Crouching over versus standing straight up has its advantages and disadvantages, just as most things in martial arts.

Someone who focuses on hand strikes might say hands are quicker than legs, so why not always use hands, but someone who focuses on leg strikes might say, the legs are far more powerful than arms, so why not always use legs...

pros and cons... I wish there was some perfect way of doing things, I'd go into MMA and make some money :D



if you start from a straight position and then attempt to move forward you will have to shift your weight, lower your CG, etc etc before you can move.

All of these things can be done just as quickly, as long as you're conscious of them. I'd say yes there is a speed difference, but one that can't be compensated for with not only training but also timing? Not at all. They have their reasons for standing straight up, and its an option. I mean, I personally do what you do, but I'm defending the stance as a valid idea.

[Pacman]

i see

advantages to the hunched posture are not just in mobility but also in striking. if your body is completely extended, you have much less potential energy stored for striking.

what are all the advantages to the straight posture?

[LSWCTN1]

Lee,

To be real honest, I dont believe in the one foot firmly planted at all times type of stuffs. In fact, it doesnt work because that is not nature, it doesnt flow, it is a conditional state. it cannot be unconditional.

as soon as ond need to sustain any conditional state, one is trap by the condition one needs or defend.


As I mention in my previous post, the so called rooting is just 1/6 of the whole story. not to mention, there are two catagories on rooting. without knowing these, the training is always conditional and thus it might works well in demo but not real time because it is always conditional. and one always has to take care of that conditional before even doing anything. thus, it is no suprise to see a well train kung fu man get take down by a 3 months junior mma because one is busying trying to keep a certain condition.

The Chinese ancestors said, Heaven and Man becomes non dual. That is unconditional, and that is also the reason one needs to enter into Silence. because only in Silence, one can let go and let God or Flow with bound less.

when there is nothing to defense, that is when the real game starts.... when there is no pull back that is where reality is. same thing with Oyama's Kyokushin, but WCK called it Silence.

all these rooting stuffs are just trying to walk with a chair. and those who knows how to walk let go of the chair because the chair itself is a burden.


Does an eagle root? sure. it needs that to fly but it doesnt stand with one leg in order to fly.

Just some thougths..

if i understand you correctly then i agree wholeheartedly with you

in our lineage we have an pak sau exercise where we travel across the room normally and meet an opponent wherever they collide with us

it is at that moment that we root ourselves and utilise the stance. i believe this is to learn how to go from normality to defence/attack instantly

[m1k3]

.

if i understand you correctly then i agree wholeheartedly with you

in our lineage we have an pak sau exercise where we travel across the room normally and meet an opponent wherever they collide with us

it is at that moment that we root ourselves and utilise the stance. i believe this is to learn how to go from normality to defence/attack instantly

I think I understand what Hendrick is saying and you caught the flavor of it describing your drill but IMO you lost that flavor as soon as you said
we root ourselves and utilise the stance.

If you think of dance or running and look at photographs of people doing those activities you would could look at each photograph and say she is in the on toes stance or he is in the explosive forward leaning stance.

If you look at the same activities as movies you don't see stances, you see the activity as a whole and the flow of the athlete from position to position as part of a single activity and the stances disappear.

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendik I think your overanalyzing his statement...


Lee said


And I can do so with one foot firmly planted at all times, just not always in the same spot.

What he means your in Wing Chun forward bracing stance. An your front leg is empty while the back foot is full. Are in essence about 70/30 give or take.

check out the arrow punch and medridan side punch

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie02_01.jpg

In this stance one foot is always planted so to speak. But you must train to be able to quickly transition from root to movement.


Lee,

To be real honest, I dont believe in the one foot firmly planted at all times type of stuffs. In fact, it doesnt work because that is not nature, it doesnt flow, it is a conditional state. it cannot be unconditional.

as soon as ond need to sustain any conditional state, one is trap by the condition one needs or defend.


As I mention in my previous post, the so called rooting is just 1/6 of the whole story. not to mention, there are two catagories on rooting. without knowing these, the training is always conditional and thus it might works well in demo but not real time because it is always conditional. and one always has to take care of that conditional before even doing anything. thus, it is no suprise to see a well train kung fu man get take down by a 3 months junior mma because one is busying trying to keep a certain condition.

The Chinese ancestors said, Heaven and Man becomes non dual. That is unconditional, and that is also the reason one needs to enter into Silence. because only in Silence, one can let go and let God or Flow with bound less.

when there is nothing to defense, that is when the real game starts.... when there is no pull back that is where reality is. same thing with Oyama's Kyokushin, but WCK called it Silence.

all these rooting stuffs are just trying to walk with a chair. and those who knows how to walk let go of the chair because the chair itself is a burden.


Does an eagle root? sure. it needs that to fly but it doesnt stand with one leg in order to fly.

Just some thougths.

[AdrianK]

i see

advantages to the hunched posture are not just in mobility but also in striking. if your body is completely extended, you have much less potential energy stored for striking.

what are all the advantages to the straight posture?

Aside from the quoted Robert Chu post, my personal experiences with it have been a stronger root and better structure. Having first-hand trained a few times with Sifu Chu (though he wouldn't recognize me from this forum) I gave it a try in hitting the bag in the posture. I felt stronger structurally and was able to recover quicker from my strikes from standing upright, and straight boxing, but I feel I did lose a little bit of that snap I usually have. It could've been from my lack of experience in the posture, or it could've been a technical limitation of the stance. Nonetheless, those are a few of the pros of the stance. I still adopt a hunched over posture most of the time, but maybe thats just because my boxing trainer would smack me if I didn't :)

[Hendrik]

Hendik I think your overanalyzing his statement...


Lee said



What he means your in Wing Chun forward bracing stance. An your front leg is empty while the back foot is full. Are in essence about 70/30 give or take.

check out the arrow punch and medridan side punch

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie02_01.jpg

In this stance one foot is always planted so to speak. But you must train to be able to quickly transition from root to movement.



You exactlymissed what I am communicating. it got nothing to do with analyzing.

As in Zen it said, " dont even talk about the horn of the rabit or the hair of the turtle shell."
why even analyzing the horn of the rabit and the hair of the turtle shell? wasting of life.


70/30..... etc? see, You keep stuck in the Pre-conditioning and Condition state, how the world is those support to flow? It is pulling the reverse gear.

Or as in Zen saying, Trying to step the same water flow/current Twice. the reality is you cant. and if your training is to prepare you to set up to reproduce all pre-condition/condition in order to step the same water flow/current twice, you stuck.


Also, all these rooting stuff including SLT/SNT training, if the training is to prepare you to set up to reproduce all pre-condition/condition in order to step the same water flow/current twice, that is wasting of time in a un realistic world.


Similarly, all your Kuen kuit, or saying, such as if you move I move first.....etc are just poison to make one even stuck more. because that mind is exactly the limit which tunnel vision or lock one in the box.

One needs to get into Silence, only in Silence one can work Stuck free.
that means let go your pre-conditioning mind which looking forward to condition before execution.


post me back only when you dont think but know.

[Yoshiyahu]

I know...With in wing chun there is a time to be flowing like water or a crane. But there is a time to be rooted like a mountain an strong like bear. But there also a time to be firey and destructive like a leopard or exploding bullet from a 45. There is a time to be crushing like avalance or tornano. An there is a time to be slippery like oil or some smooth metal alloy. But the key is knowing when You talk negative on the Kuen Kuit. But you yourself seem to whole stock in the sayings of Sifu's do you not. I am a wing chun man. Not a Taoist or Zen master. So I can only draw from WC. You being a Tai Chi fighter or internalist may draw from philopical sources.


I draw from what works in a fight.


For instance. What happens to your flowing movement if your back is up against a wall an guy is trying to knock your head off. I been in this situtation before with someone I thought was a friend. But in reality he was filled with envy. I didn't realize he was half playing. But later another friend told me he was trying to really hurt me. Had it now been for my Sifu setting me in a corner an firing attacks at me where I could do was defend than that day I would have been unprepared.


You must learn how to fight with movement and with out it. For you never know where you may end up.



You exactlymissed what I am communicating. it got nothing to do with analyzing.

As in Zen it said, " dont even talk about the horn of the rabit or the hair of the turtle shell."
why even analyzing the horn of the rabit and the hair of the turtle shell? wasting of life.


70/30..... etc? see, You keep stuck in the Pre-conditioning and Condition state, how the world is those support to flow? It is pulling the reverse gear.

Or as in Zen saying, Trying to step the same water flow/current Twice. the reality is you cant. and if your training is to prepare you to set up to reproduce all pre-condition/condition in order to step the same water flow/current twice, you stuck.


Also, all these rooting stuff including SLT/SNT training, if the training is to prepare you to set up to reproduce all pre-condition/condition in order to step the same water flow/current twice, that is wasting of time in a un realistic world.


Similarly, all your Kuen kuit, or saying, such as if you move I move first.....etc are just poison to make one even stuck more. because that mind is exactly the limit which tunnel vision or lock one in the box.

One needs to get into Silence, only in Silence one can work Stuck free.
that means let go your pre-conditioning mind which looking forward to condition before execution.


post me back only when you dont think but know.

[m1k3]

Yoshiyahu, he's not talking about flowing movements, he's talking about flow. It is a state of mind. It is often found in both Zen and athletics. Hope that helps.

[Hendrik]

I know...With in wing chun there is a time to be flowing like water or a crane. But there is a time to be rooted like a mountain an strong like bear. But there also a time to be firey and destructive like a leopard or exploding bullet from a 45. There is a time to be crushing like avalance or tornano. An there is a time to be slippery like oil or some smooth metal alloy.


But the key is knowing when You talk negative on the Kuen Kuit.


But you yourself seem to whole stock in the sayings of Sifu's do you not. I am a wing chun man. Not a Taoist or Zen master. So I can only draw from WC.

You being a Tai Chi fighter or internalist may draw from philopical sources.


I draw from what works in a fight.


For instance. What happens to your flowing movement if your back is up against a wall an guy is trying to knock your head off.

I been in this situtation before with someone I thought was a friend.

But in reality he was filled with envy. I didn't realize he was half playing. But later another friend told me he was trying to really hurt me.

Had it now been for my Sifu setting me in a corner an firing attacks at me where I could do was defend than that day I would have been unprepared.


You must learn how to fight with movement and with out it. For you never know where you may end up.



Great.

Now share with us with all your ideas above

how do you handle the following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


and before that Tell me what is wrong with the Kung Fu guy?

[Hendrik]

Yoshiyahu, he's not talking about flowing movements, he's talking about flow. It is a state of mind. It is often found in both Zen and athletics. Hope that helps.


in that state, there is no mind, the body and mind are one ---- It is just action without preconditioning or any prerequisite state needed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtqQxF4qb7c&feature=related

is what I refer to; and using as a standard of nature flow and silence.

certainly, not something sitting down in crossleg or standing in Zhan Zhuang, doing aum or taiji or internal art or fajing or rooting..or Kuen kuit..or Qigong (in fact have totally no clue what is Qigong)..all words BS. but spontaneous action with no mind and no body-- silence.

what angling? what foot works? what fajing? what rooting ?....etc. big words.
can one do it as in the clip? or close to the clip? or similar to the clip? Could one's training lead to these type of quantity and quality? until then is just all talks and fantasy. Sure in every school one will think one is the best. But what is that matter?

[Hendrik]

advantages to the hunched posture are not just in mobility but also in striking. if your body is completely extended, you have much less potential energy stored for striking.


when the spine doesnt work naturally with the breathing and action, what mobility? what energy?

[Violent Designs]

Aside from the quoted Robert Chu post, my personal experiences with it have been a stronger root and better structure. Having first-hand trained a few times with Sifu Chu (though he wouldn't recognize me from this forum) I gave it a try in hitting the bag in the posture. I felt stronger structurally and was able to recover quicker from my strikes from standing upright, and straight boxing, but I feel I did lose a little bit of that snap I usually have. It could've been from my lack of experience in the posture, or it could've been a technical limitation of the stance. Nonetheless, those are a few of the pros of the stance. I still adopt a hunched over posture most of the time, but maybe thats just because my boxing trainer would smack me if I didn't :)

All the cool people are doing it, the best in CLF does it, why not you too !

[Yoshiyahu]

The Kung Fu guy is not a fighter. He probably practices forms all day and never have touched hands with a experienced fighter. The first time he probably got close to actually sparring was just then...Totally unprepared an had expectation of what was going to happen to him...



Great.

Now share with us with all your ideas above

how do you handle the following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


and before that Tell me what is wrong with the Kung Fu guy?

mik3 thankyou very much

[Hendrik]

The Kung Fu guy is not a fighter.

He probably practices forms all day and never have touched hands with a experienced fighter. The first time he probably got close to actually sparring was just then...Totally unprepared an had expectation of what was going to happen to him...



1, not a fighter is not the answer for the question, what is wrong ?

2, He probably practices forms all day is not the answer for the question too.


Based from the above answers, that means you dont know. that means you will end up like him in the clip. Believe or not.

[Pacman]

I felt stronger structurally and was able to recover quicker from my strikes from standing upright...

i understand and it is hard to debate your personal opinion. ill leave with one thought about structure: when you meet an incoming force...or when you need to push something lets say a car. do you lean forward so that the force vectors are transferred toward the leg and the ground or do you push a car with your torso straight up?

[Pacman]

when the spine doesnt work naturally with the breathing and action, what mobility? what energy?

my teacher actually tells me this is beneficial because you learn to breathe with your abdomen instead of your chest muscles

[Hendrik]

my teacher actually tells me this is beneficial because you learn to breathe with your abdomen instead of your chest muscles

hunch back learn breath with abdomen?

The chinese medirians is usually too deep to understand and know. so, Check it up into as simple as human biology and see for yourself if that is true.

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendrik do you fight...chances are you would end up down there too getting submitted by me!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik do you fight...chances are you would end up down there too getting submitted by me!


As I told you in the other post, my way is the Kyokushin way, thus,
anyone who has more advance kung fu then me sure can do that. Can be you or any one.

however that is not the point of this thread right?


please answer my previous questions.

[AdrianK]

i understand and it is hard to debate your personal opinion.

:confused: I'm not really debating that your way isn't less or more effective. I'm simply saying that conceptually there may be weaknesses in the more upright stances, but they are still valid ideas.



ill leave with one thought about structure: when you meet an incoming force...or when you need to push something lets say a car. do you lean forward so that the force vectors are transferred toward the leg and the ground or do you push a car with your torso straight up?

:rolleyes: I understand this pretty well already. Your comparison is flawed in that when you push a car as you said, the car is roughly at your waist level, and it is on wheels. A Human being does not roll back. So similarly I could say, if you want to move a box forward, what is more efficient? Pushing the box along the ground? Or lifting it and moving it forward? This comparison would be meant to demonstrate uprooting your opponent. When you lift a box you lift with your legs and your back is straight. The same concept is valid for uprooting someone.

But honestly, even with both of those comparisons, moving a box or pushing a car are very poor demonstrations of how these concepts relate to fighting.

There are an extreme number of variables when it comes to fighting. An upright stance could put into action a number of abilities that a crouched stance cannot, and vice versa. You could make a literally endless variety of arguments of how various stances affect movement, punching, kicking, throwing, wrestling, your health, your knees, root, uprooting, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Its so pointless to debate which is better when it comes to stance, because it can split off into an endless amount of debates of everything related to stance. And there are a ridiculous amount of people who put into action either of these stances. Boxers, Mixed Martial Artists, Martial Arts teachers, etc. - They've all done a great job at demonstrating that there's no way one person can say which one is better. Which is better for their specific ideas or style, maybe.. but at some point you needa shed style and express yourself honestly as a martial artist.

[Pacman]

hendrik

you are a student of karate?

[Hendrik]

hendrik

you are a student of karate?

yes. Kyokushin.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Lee,

To be real honest, I dont believe in the one foot firmly planted at all times type of stuffs. In fact, it doesnt work because that is not nature, it doesnt flow, it is a conditional state. it cannot be unconditional.

as soon as ond need to sustain any conditional state, one is trap by the condition one needs or defend.<<


Hendrik, sometimes you just lose me. I try to speak more in common terms rather than the philosophical terms. Makes more sense really. By keeping one foot firmly planted might not have been the right term to use. When moving about you can do so quickly and without projecting yourself forward in a manner so that both feet leave the ground at the same time. Running can be done as a very fast walk, where you move one foot at a time. Any time you leave the ground you are not connected and therefore not rooted. Bouncing about will have you moving in and out of root so to speak, and a rush can take you in between. By keeping one foot firmly planted does not have you standing there with one foot in place while you move about it. You can flow like water and still remain rooted.

[LSWCTN1]

I think I understand what Hendrick is saying and you caught the flavor of it describing your drill but IMO you lost that flavor as soon as you said .

If you think of dance or running and look at photographs of people doing those activities you would could look at each photograph and say she is in the on toes stance or he is in the explosive forward leaning stance.

If you look at the same activities as movies you don't see stances, you see the activity as a whole and the flow of the athlete from position to position as part of a single activity and the stances disappear.

fair point, perhaps im not articulate enough to describe exactly what happens!

we drill it so many times that it just becomes natural, and its har to break down all the little points now. however - if we dont perform the little points correctly you better believe we are made to pay for it!

[punchdrunk]

Hendrick does karate!! no wonder he worries about chi so much, his meridians and chakras are misaligned! Now is he a "glorified kick boxer" too? hehe.
Just kidding it is good to hear you have other experiences as well.

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand what your talking about. But this comes from experience and practice. Hendrik only does Sil Lim Tao. He doesn't practice Wing Chun. Nor do I think he has a real sifu. His sensi may have been from karate but as far as Wing Chun gues he is lacking. Hendrix seems to be all books but lacks the phyiscal training to truly understand what he reads. So your last statement will only cause him to speak more metaphorically.


Lee,

To be real honest, I dont believe in the one foot firmly planted at all times type of stuffs. In fact, it doesnt work because that is not nature, it doesnt flow, it is a conditional state. it cannot be unconditional.

as soon as ond need to sustain any conditional state, one is trap by the condition one needs or defend.<<


Hendrik, sometimes you just lose me. I try to speak more in common terms rather than the philosophical terms. Makes more sense really. By keeping one foot firmly planted might not have been the right term to use. When moving about you can do so quickly and without projecting yourself forward in a manner so that both feet leave the ground at the same time. Running can be done as a very fast walk, where you move one foot at a time. Any time you leave the ground you are not connected and therefore not rooted. Bouncing about will have you moving in and out of root so to speak, and a rush can take you in between. By keeping one foot firmly planted does not have you standing there with one foot in place while you move about it. You can flow like water and still remain rooted.

[m1k3]

fair point, perhaps im not articulate enough to describe exactly what happens!

we drill it so many times that it just becomes natural, and its har to break down all the little points now. however - if we dont perform the little points correctly you better believe we are made to pay for it!

I think this is what Hendrick is talking about, at least its what I'm talking about.

Its kind of like in that Bruce Lee movie where he holds up his fist and says something like "I don't hit, IT hits on its own". Don't think about it, do it.

Hope that make sense, and I think it fits in with what you are saying.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, sometimes you just lose me. I try to speak more in common terms rather than the philosophical terms. Makes more sense really. .



Lee,

I am not speak philosophical terms. I am decribing the details of reality.

IE: no matter what, one likes it or not one is subject and connected to gravitation force toward the earth . Even when one is falling or jump up. leg touch ground or not.

Thus, one DOESNT have to do ANYTHING to have gravitation force.


So what is the so called Rooting and training of Rooting do? stand with one leg with to leg with no leg?

[Hendrik]

I think this is what Hendrick is talking about, at least its what I'm talking about.

Its kind of like in that Bruce Lee movie where he holds up his fist and says something like "I don't hit, IT hits on its own". Don't think about it, do it.

Hope that make sense, and I think it fits in with what you are saying.



Yes.


as Bruce Lee said, I dont hit, it hits on its own.

Hendrik said, I dont root. the Gravitational force root on its own. Dont think about it. Do it.


BTW. it is not about


"we drill it so many times that it just becomes natural,"


it is


"we know the gravitational force root on its own, we then drill or let go Let the Gravitational force do its job, (let go let GOD, Dao mimic Nature) so many times that it just RETURN to the natural path by it self."



(just to emphasis with CAP no insult or rudeness intent)


This in the CHINESE Philosophical term is called WU Wei or NON DOING. Or NON DOING but EVERYTHING GOT DONE naturally.



ONE DONT MAKE GRAVITATIONAL FORCE. ONE CANT' ONE NEEDS JUST TO KNOW IT AND THEN MAKE USE OF IT.


IN STEAD OF HAVING ALL THE SILLY ROOTING FANTASY BUT CLUE LESS OF THE BIG BOSS --- THE GRAVITATIONAL FORCE. AND TRYING TO FORCE THINGS AROUND SENSE LESSLY. THAT IS MOST MISS LEADING TCMA PEOPLE DO. IMHO.


SO, SLT/SNT means one got to knows these stuffs before even train. otherwise it is pulling reverse gear and stuck. while thinking FLOW FLOW? make it FLOW.

FLOW WHAT? GET THE IGNORANCE MIND OUT and it FLOW. THAT SIMPLE. THUS IT IS CALLED LITTLE IDEA NO BIG THOUGHTS.

[Hendrik]

Hendrick does karate!! no wonder he worries about chi so much, his meridians and chakras are misaligned! Now is he a "glorified kick boxer" too? hehe.
Just kidding it is good to hear you have other experiences as well.

I dont do Karate. I do Kyokushin. In fact I do Judo, I do....... before I even do WCK.

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendrik what is Flow?

What does non doing really mean?

How does one achieve wu wei with out trying or with out intent?

Yes.


as Bruce Lee said, I dont hit, it hits on its own.

Hendrik said, I dont root. the Gravitational force root on its own. Dont think about it. Do it.


BTW. it is not about


"we drill it so many times that it just becomes natural,"


it is


"we know the gravitational force root on its own, we then drill or let go Let the Gravitational force do its job, (let go let GOD, Dao mimic Nature) so many times that it just RETURN to the natural path by it self."



(just to emphasis with CAP no insult or rudeness intent)


This in the CHINESE Philosophical term is called WU Wei or NON DOING. Or NON DOING but EVERYTHING GOT DONE naturally.



ONE DONT MAKE GRAVITATIONAL FORCE. ONE CANT' ONE NEEDS JUST TO KNOW IT AND THEN MAKE USE OF IT.


IN STEAD OF HAVING ALL THE SILLY ROOTING FANTASY BUT CLUE LESS OF THE BIG BOSS --- THE GRAVITATIONAL FORCE. AND TRYING TO FORCE THINGS AROUND SENSE LESSLY. THAT IS MOST MISS LEADING TCMA PEOPLE DO. IMHO.


SO, SLT/SNT means one got to knows these stuffs before even train. otherwise it is pulling reverse gear and stuck. while thinking FLOW FLOW? make it FLOW.

FLOW WHAT? GET THE IGNORANCE MIND OUT and it FLOW. THAT SIMPLE. THUS IT IS CALLED LITTLE IDEA NO BIG THOUGHTS.

[Hendrik]

I understand what your talking about. But this comes from experience and practice.


Hendrik only does Sil Lim Tao. He doesn't practice Wing Chun.
Nor do I think he has a real sifu.
His sensi may have been from karate but as far as Wing Chun gues he is lacking.


Hendrix seems to be all books but lacks the phyiscal training to truly understand what he reads.

So your last statement will only cause him to speak more metaphorically.




Sure, I hope your are right.
I dont take pleasure of proving others wrong. in fact, I dont know anything.



however, as simple minded as me who dont know anything about WCK.



You see, like playing basket ball, one knows what is the weakness, what is the strenght..... and what is the strategy..... to play with the other basket ball team. no just go there and take chance or hope one win.


You keep saying ROOT ROOT ROOT, TRUE WCK, FIGHTING......etc
But you cant even give me a details on what is going on with that BJJ take down Kung Fu clip.

So, the rule of thump, if you dont know what it is, you dont know how to deal with it. that simple Dont need rocket scientist to figure that out isnt it?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik what is Flow?

What does non doing really mean?

How does one achieve wu wei with out trying or with out intent?




This is what you said,



Hendrik only does Sil Lim Tao. He doesn't practice Wing Chun.
Nor do I think he has a real sifu.

His sensi may have been from karate but as far as Wing Chun gues he is lacking.

So why ask me? as Wing Chun gues I am lacking.

I know only Kyokushin way.

[chusauli]

I understand what your talking about. But this comes from experience and practice. Hendrik only does Sil Lim Tao. He doesn't practice Wing Chun. Nor do I think he has a real sifu. His sensi may have been from karate but as far as Wing Chun gues he is lacking. Hendrix seems to be all books but lacks the phyiscal training to truly understand what he reads. So your last statement will only cause him to speak more metaphorically.

Yoshiyahu,

You don't know anything about Hendrik. He does Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao - an early version of WCK handed down from Yik Kam on the Red Boat Opera. It consists of one very long set - first section akin to Siu Nim Tao, 2nd section has elements of Chum Kiu, 3rd section has elements of Biu Jee and the Jong. It is the real deal, and not some made up lineage.

As for his study of Kyokushinkai, it is very real. Kyokushin means to "penetrate Ultimate Truth" - to get at reality, as passed down from Mas Oyama. It is very respected throughout the world.

I think you are lacking in respect for your elders and peers. You seem to be a young man not very clear in mind and conduct. Straighten your mind, and your fist will match.

[punchdrunk]

Sounds like lots of wu wei, or non doing to me. I've heard improper qi gong can drive you insane, best of luck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PATIwGqO_SA&feature=related

[Hendrik]

Sounds like lots of wu wei, or non doing to me.

I've heard improper qi gong can drive you insane, best of luck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PATIwGqO_SA&feature=related



Wu wei is just the practice of non resistance.

an example of real life Wu Wei in a basic everyday life pragmatic practice is
follow the gravitational force direction and walking down hill with ease.

That simple, one dont even have to think. How can dont think get one insane?




In fact, it is one's own illusion thinking which drive oneself insane. for it doesnt follow the rythm of the nature, but brute forcely trying to force through one's own ignorance ---- or wanting the whole world to behave "MY WAY".

[-木叶-]

Sounds like lots of wu wei, or non doing to me. I've heard improper qi gong can drive you insane, best of luck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PATIwGqO_SA&feature=related

Briefly, the qigong which was mentioned by Hendrik, is Wing Chun Qi Gong, which
originates from a part of Shaolin's famous Yi Jin Jing. The Qi Gong's full name is 肾气归元功 and was created by late Grandmaster Sum Nung, founder of Sum Nung Wing Chun.

Practicing the Qi Gong after WC Training converts the strength that was gained during the process i.e. during practicing any of the WC Forms, Mok Yan Jong, and etc, into internal strength.

Hope this helps, just sharing what i know.

[punchdrunk]

thanks for sharing, I was just teasing him (Hendrick). Again thank you for the information and your opinion. I don't really think improper physical motions can drive one insane, just really waste one's time and energy.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thankyou for the history chusauli...any way. i dont lack respect for any style. Not even wrestling. I think all styles can be great provided to practioners trains them to fight with them. If you train a martial arts as a hobby or fun your doing it a disservice. For it is fighting art. For fun I think I will take up dance, roller skating or basket ball. But for fighting give me Karate, Muay Thai, Hung Gar or Wing Chun or Boxing. As for lacking respect for peers or indiviuals you know I will have to say your right. But my criticizim of hendrik is partly in jest. What gets my goat is his reluctance to answer question while pouring on more quuestions. It does irritate me that he doesn't know how to speak plainly though. But that is something he must learn on his own.

As for Kyokushin or Shotokan I think those are very great arts. The Japanese are real fighters. Much more than I can say for most Gwalo TCMA guys. Who read alot books an probably throw a chain punch once every six months. I mean don't get me wrong. I practice forms like crazy. But I also practice basic steps, kicks, punches, and even different hand techniques. So my Wing Chun will be crisp and concise. But any system with form practice alone is useless in my opinion. One also needs some partner drilling and sparring both hard and light to develop a technique. After all What was Wing Chun design for?


To fight with~



Yoshiyahu,

You don't know anything about Hendrik. He does Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao - an early version of WCK handed down from Yik Kam on the Red Boat Opera. It consists of one very long set - first section akin to Siu Nim Tao, 2nd section has elements of Chum Kiu, 3rd section has elements of Biu Jee and the Jong. It is the real deal, and not some made up lineage.

As for his study of Kyokushinkai, it is very real. Kyokushin means to "penetrate Ultimate Truth" - to get at reality, as passed down from Mas Oyama. It is very respected throughout the world.

I think you are lacking in respect for your elders and peers. You seem to be a young man not very clear in mind and conduct. Straighten your mind, and your fist will match.

[Hendrik]

But my criticizim of hendrik is partly in jest. What gets my goat is his reluctance to answer question while pouring on more quuestions.

It does irritate me that he doesn't know how to speak plainly though.

But that is something he must learn on his own.



Excellent Critics! Thanks. I always can be better.


and , Sure, always others fault. Hahaha.

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Critics! Thanks. I always can be better.


and , Sure, always others fault. Hahaha.

Oh I am sure I have my faults too...Arrogance, Anger, Rage, devoid of emotion and sometimes a bit synical.

But hey no one is perfect!

[Pacman]

Yoshiyahu,

You don't know anything about Hendrik. He does Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao - an early version of WCK handed down from Yik Kam on the Red Boat Opera. It consists of one very long set - first section akin to Siu Nim Tao, 2nd section has elements of Chum Kiu, 3rd section has elements of Biu Jee and the Jong. It is the real deal, and not some made up lineage.

As for his study of Kyokushinkai, it is very real. Kyokushin means to "penetrate Ultimate Truth" - to get at reality, as passed down from Mas Oyama. It is very respected throughout the world.

I think you are lacking in respect for your elders and peers. You seem to be a young man not very clear in mind and conduct. Straighten your mind, and your fist will match.

regardless of what form hendrik knows (this fact is meaningless), he is not able to convey himself in this forum. his posts never speak to a point and most of it sounds like the ramblings of a lunatic.

i guarantee 99% of the people have no idea what the hell he is ever talking about.

[Pacman]

Great.

Now share with us with all your ideas above

how do you handle the following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4


and before that Tell me what is wrong with the Kung Fu guy?

among other things, he had no idea how to defend against a basic takedown.

[Hendrik]

regardless of what form hendrik knows (this fact is meaningless), he is not able to convey himself in this forum. his posts never speak to a point and most of it sounds like the ramblings of a lunatic.

i guarantee 99% of the people have no idea what the hell he is ever talking about.




Why all the personal attack?

if you dont like to read my post ignore them. That simple.

[Hendrik]

among other things, he had no idea how to defend against a basic takedown.

Saying that means you know right? ok enlightenent us.

how to defend against a basic take down? I am willing to learn from you if you know something.


please share in the "Wing Chun and The root" thread.

[Pacman]

Why all the personal attack?

if you dont like to read my post ignore them. That simple.

i never attacked you personally. i only attacked your posts.


Saying that means you know right? ok enlightenent us.

how to defend against a basic take down? I am willing to learn from you if you know something.


please share in the "Wing Chun and The root" thread.

theres many things you can do, not all WC specific.

for one, he did not use any lateral movement. he just hopped back and forth, but it was relatively in the same place. if someone is trying to shoot a double on you, lateral movement is the easiest way to keep him from getting a good shot

if he grabs you, you need to use "rooting" to keep him from getting you off balance and taking you down. "rooting" is a broad term which includes many things. on top of that you can pivot your horse stance to throw him off balance -- redirecting him.

lastly, and again this is not applicable to wing chun, but you can be an accurate striker. if someone puts his head down and charges at you he is wide open, but not for very long. you can strike at him with your hands or legs.

look at liddell. when people try to shoot at him he maneuvers and knocks them out because he is skilled.

master sum nung defeated many grapplers and wrestlers including one of his students, kwok ping (before he became his student of course)

[m1k3]

i never attacked you personally. i only attacked your posts.



theres many things you can do, not all WC specific.

for one, he did not use any lateral movement. he just hopped back and forth, but it was relatively in the same place. if someone is trying to shoot a double on you, lateral movement is the easiest way to keep him from getting a good shot

if he grabs you, you need to use "rooting" to keep him from getting you off balance and taking you down. "rooting" is a broad term which includes many things. on top of that you can pivot your horse stance to throw him off balance -- redirecting him.

lastly, and again this is not applicable to wing chun, but you can be an accurate striker. if someone puts his head down and charges at you he is wide open, but not for very long. you can strike at him with your hands or legs.

look at liddell. when people try to shoot at him he maneuvers and knocks them out because he is skilled.

master sum nung defeated many grapplers and wrestlers including one of his students, kwok ping (before he became his student of course)

What you can do is learn how to grapple. As for Liddell, all the strikers use him as an example of how to fight a grappler. They never mention that he was a Division 1 college wrestler :eek: and that that's the reason he was good at avoiding takedowns.

[Violent Designs]

What you can do is learn how to grapple. As for Liddell, all the strikers use him as an example of how to fight a grappler. They never mention that he was a Division 1 college wrestler :eek: and that that's the reason he was good at avoiding takedowns.

OK don't use Liddell as example, use Thiago Alves.

[Yoshiyahu]

regardless of what form hendrik knows (this fact is meaningless), he is not able to convey himself in this forum. his posts never speak to a point and most of it sounds like the ramblings of a lunatic.

i guarantee 99% of the people have no idea what the hell he is ever talking about.

I have to concur...Alot of what hendrik says I find as jargon...the other stuff is riduculous ramblings. But its great that he shares his thoughts on Chi. To bad he doesn't believe Wing Chun can utilize a root for striking.


Why all the personal attack?

if you dont like to read my post ignore them. That simple.


Your post are weird at best. An have no basis for actual combat. The critiscm is so you can learn from your errors and become a better communicator. Learn how to speak english as the common vernacular the way most people speak english.

Hendrik is English your second language?


i never attacked you personally. i only attacked your posts.



theres many things you can do, not all WC specific.

for one, he did not use any lateral movement. he just hopped back and forth, but it was relatively in the same place. if someone is trying to shoot a double on you, lateral movement is the easiest way to keep him from getting a good shot

if he grabs you, you need to use "rooting" to keep him from getting you off balance and taking you down. "rooting" is a broad term which includes many things. on top of that you can pivot your horse stance to throw him off balance -- redirecting him.

lastly, and again this is not applicable to wing chun, but you can be an accurate striker. if someone puts his head down and charges at you he is wide open, but not for very long. you can strike at him with your hands or legs.

look at liddell. when people try to shoot at him he maneuvers and knocks them out because he is skilled.

master sum nung defeated many grapplers and wrestlers including one of his students, kwok ping (before he became his student of course)


What you can do is learn how to grapple. As for Liddell, all the strikers use him as an example of how to fight a grappler. They never mention that he was a Division 1 college wrestler :eek: and that that's the reason he was good at avoiding takedowns.


I have shared this info concerning Sum Nung many moons ago. Many people on the fourm doubt Sum Nung ability. But its okay. As for Liddel good one pacman. As for Liddell having grappling experience. So what so do alot of strikers in some way or another. I started off with Aikido and Judo. But I mostly use Wing Chun.

[Hendrik]

theres many things you can do, not all WC specific.


are you a WCner? what is your background?






for one, he did not use any lateral movement. he just hopped back and forth, but it was relatively in the same place. if someone is trying to shoot a double on you, lateral movement is the easiest way to keep him from getting a good shot


ok.




if he grabs you, you need to use "rooting" to keep him from getting you off balance and taking you down. "rooting" is a broad term which includes many things. on top of that you can pivot your horse stance to throw him off balance -- redirecting him.



What is Rooting? and where /which style do you train this Rooting from?

What is the different between this rooting compare with what the wrestle do? or Rooting is a fancy word but actually is doing what the wrestle/grapper do?






lastly, and again this is not applicable to wing chun, but you can be an accurate striker. if someone puts his head down and charges at you he is wide open, but not for very long. you can strike at him with your hands or legs.


Why is this not applicable to Wing Chun? Wing Chun is not a striking art? and an excellent close range striking art?






look at liddell. when people try to shoot at him he maneuvers and knocks them out because he is skilled.

master sum nung defeated many grapplers and wrestlers including one of his students, kwok ping (before he became his student of course)


This is just saying Liddell and Sum Nung can handle well and nothing more.



To be real honest, you posts some ideas and some names, but it really doesnt say much on how to defend against a basic take down and how to handle the take down with WCK and/or having a root.

According to your posts, my take is, one is better go learn some Wrestling or BJJ or Grapping and mmA instead of wasting time on WCK.

[Hendrik]

To bad he doesn't believe Wing Chun can utilize a root for striking.


Could you please Share with us how is your Wing Chun can utilize a root for striking?








Your post are weird at best. An have no basis for actual combat. The critiscm is so you can learn from your errors and become a better communicator. Learn how to speak english as the common vernacular the way most people speak english.

Is it language or is it something you are not yet capable to comprehend?

Is that your reality a fantasy or my fantasy a reality?


Or perhaps I am purposely doing that because there is a hinden message for you when you are ready ?

experience and time will tell.

[Pacman]

lastly, and again this is not applicable to wing chun, but you can be an accurate striker. if someone puts his head down and charges at you he is wide open, but not for very long. you can strike at him with your hands or legs.

i made a typo. i meant to say "this is not just applicable to wing chun"




What is Rooting? and where /which style do you train this Rooting from?

What is the different between this rooting compare with what the wrestle do? or Rooting is a fancy word but actually is doing what the wrestle/grapper do?

as has been said many times. rooting, in one respect, is a way to use your body structure to redirect incoming force to the ground. so if someone pushes against your chest, instead of fighting that force with your waist the force is redirected towards the ground and you can push against that force with your legs. considering your legs are the strongest group of muscles in your body this is your best bet.

western wrestling and BJJ do not have knowledge of this specific technique.



To be real honest, you posts some ideas and some names, but it really doesnt say much on how to defend against a basic take down and how to handle the take down with WCK and/or having a root.

According to your posts, my take is, one is better go learn some Wrestling or BJJ or Grapping and mmA instead of wasting time on WCK.

i gave you three or four things to do. you are already convinced by that video (where the guy is not even WC)



What you can do is learn how to grapple. As for Liddell, all the strikers use him as an example of how to fight a grappler. They never mention that he was a Division 1 college wrestler and that that's the reason he was good at avoiding takedowns.

he has a good sprawl thats why he can avoid takedowns, but i wasnt talking about his sprawl. i was talking about his ability to knock someone out quickly and accurately as they move in for a takedown without using his sprawl

[Hendrik]

i made a typo. i meant to say "this is not just applicable to wing chun"



ok



as has been said many times. rooting, in one respect, is a way to use your body structure to redirect incoming force to the ground.

so if someone pushes against your chest, instead of fighting that force with your waist the force is redirected towards the ground and you can push against that force with your legs.

considering your legs are the strongest group of muscles in your body this is your best bet.


Which style is the rooting training from? where have you train in this? and what is the result if you have test it?

Convince me this work in a dynamic situation. Otherwise, this is just some static precondition demo tricks. and totally fail to work under the dynamic pulling and pushing... take down close body activity.






western wrestling and BJJ do not have knowledge of this specific technique.

Ok, please reveal which style this specific technic is from and how they train it?


Since you said

considering your legs are the strongest group of muscles in your body this is your best bet.



May be the BJJ And GRAPPER AND WRESTLE basic instinct training / drill get beyond what you describe as rooting above.






i gave you three or four things to do. you are already convinced by that video (where the guy is not even WC)



In my humble opinion, you provide three to four ideas however all of these ideas are based on If one could move lateral, if one could root, if one could fight like the striker liddle, if one could fight like GM Sum Nung.

See, all these if doesnt really solve anything. for every if there is a if it doesnt work so what then?

The clip convince me the BJJ guy knows what he is doing. As for the Kung Fu guy know only punching and kicking in a very basic entry level way.

and all the so called anti-take down ideas discuss by most here are Conditional working type of ideas based on "if".



For example as "rooting" it is totally doesnt make sense in dynamic but some Chinese rigid misleading conditional practice. IMHO. but some takes it as jewels.


Just my 5 cents.

[Pacman]

Which style is the rooting training from?


Convince me this work in a dynamic situation.

the concept of 'root' in wing chun is also found similarly in xing yi, ba gua, and tai ji quan.

no one can convince you that this works with words in a dynamic situation. you would have to experience it yourself



The clip convince me the BJJ guy knows what he is doing. As for the Kung Fu guy know only punching and kicking in a very basic entry level way.

See, all these if doesnt really solve anything. for every if there is a if it doesnt work so what then?


i dont know why this is relevant. this supposed KF master is not a representative of all KF has to offer.

i really dont know what you want. i gave you a few basic general things to do to prevent and/or combat a take down. there is no magic invincibility move to 100% prevent all take downs. similarly there is no 100% defense against a punch or a kick.

same goes for rooting. the best way to take down a guy who is rooted is to 'uproot' him



ok





Which style is the rooting training from? where have you train in this? and what is the result if you have test it?

Convince me this work in a dynamic situation. Otherwise, this is just some static precondition demo tricks. and totally fail to work under the dynamic pulling and pushing... take down close body activity.






Ok, please reveal which style this specific technic is from and how they train it?


Since you said



May be the BJJ And GRAPPER AND WRESTLE basic instinct training / drill get beyond what you describe as rooting above.






In my humble opinion, you provide three to four ideas however all of these ideas are based on If one could move lateral, if one could root, if one could fight like the striker liddle, if one could fight like GM Sum Nung.

See, all these if doesnt really solve anything. for every if there is a if it doesnt work so what then?

The clip convince me the BJJ guy knows what he is doing. As for the Kung Fu guy know only punching and kicking in a very basic entry level way.

and all the so called anti-take down ideas discuss by most here are Conditional working type of ideas based on "if".



For example as "rooting" it is totally doesnt make sense in dynamic but some Chinese rigid misleading conditional practice. IMHO. but some takes it as jewels.


Just my 5 cents.

[stonecrusher69]

I would let others who knows WCK to share first. That way I can learn also.


and


most of so called Rooting or Structure training of YJKYM doesnt even work when one stand on the top of a wrestling mat.


Why are you standing on a wrestling mat?

[m1k3]

How about because it is a good place to find grapplers and practice that phase of your training?

Just a guess.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

How about because it is a good place to find grapplers and practice that phase of your training?

Just a guess.:)

I think he means why is he STANDING on a wrestling mat instead of wrestling on it.
:p

[Hendrik]

How about because it is a good place to find grapplers and practice that phase of your training?

Just a guess.:)



Some doesnt even have an idea how the training floor of Wrestle or Judo feel like.. That tell alots about the so called rooting concept isnt it?

That is the reason I said those Rooting stuffs doesnt work. it is a conditional demo thing.

The real stuffs doesnt go as these ROOTING people describe.

But as the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J85ARLul9h8&feature=related

notice, he never said Root but continously all-side support (or eight direction force vector support if you know chinese as speak in the clip or six direction force support. )


Root? NO Root. That is a mis understanding from those who think they know but have no clue.

[Hendrik]

the concept of 'root' in wing chun is also found similarly in xing yi, ba gua, and tai ji quan.

no one can convince you that this works with words in a dynamic situation. you would have to experience it yourself





You drop all the big names

but dont you curious why the heck no ROOT is mention in this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J85ARLul9h8&feature=related



Thus, what experience do you refer to? The Taiji you think or the real taiji in the clip where there is no Root but all directional support which works dynamically in all condition.



Thus, I rather people do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q14VI45EdUo

get the support naturally beable to have a life instead of keep fantasy like a sitting duck waiting to get slauther.

and also, what Jenifer did is also a presentation of what Chen XW teaches in above in a lively and cute way. She needs to be able to make use of the all direction support in her high heel.

Dont beleive me? try out in high heel walk and move...and squat like Jenifer and see for yourself how do you do? how is your ROOTING helping you?

See, the Chinese term ROOT is not a mantra that can ward off anything. In fact it has become a spell cursing oneself to drop dead.





no one can convince you that this works with words in a dynamic situation. you would have to experience it yourself


Sure, could your rooting work in high heel? have you try it?

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendrik there are guys out there who can drop their weight to floor where they can not be taking down. When I took Aikido they practiced this. But not with a horsestance. I myself do not practice the root this way so I would use my root to stop from being taking down. I would use my techniques to advoid take downs. Simply why stand and root when you can move out the way. Can rooting in the ground stop a elephant from pushing you down. Eventually your arm or legs will weaken or tire.

Anyway Hendrik as for Rooting in Wing Chun. I believe it is used for striking. With a root you can strike through your opponent an send them flying. There is a guy who trains Bagua who came to tai chi class to demostrate this. Now he is not a master an could not demostrate it in actual fighting fashion. But it could be use in a fight if you timed it right. Which takes practice on his part. Of course if you have a root I will just strike you in the nose. I don't care about your root. If you try to uproot me I simply move or take a step. Same with take downs.

Hendrik I know you understand about the root. Its only one the Six directions!

You can force Pressure down into ground or you can lift force upwards using your stance(Make your stance light). Of course you direct force outwards or backwards or to your left and right.

Six Directional Force Transferences.
East
West
North
South
Heaven
Earth

It depends on your purpose. Are you using it to strike, uproot, or turn off energy

In Wing Chun you never fight against force. If someone tries to pull you then go with them. If they try to push you go with the push. If you resist the push the impact will result in a striking power. If you resist the pull you are straining your joints. If you follow the force an add to it when pulled you achieve a great power behind your punch.

For instance I am in Yee Kim Yeung Ma. You attempt to jerk me out of stance. I front step forward with the jerk while chainpunching you in the nose. Momentum Plus my velocity will increase my whole body strength upon impact. I am using my own force along with your force in the intial pull to attack you.

What happens if I resist or pull backwards when you jerk me. Well you could let go an I fall on my arse. You could let go an step foward an side kick me adding to my backward motion causing me to fall on my arse harder.

So if a grappler is trying to take you down. Well you have Huen Sau principles. Simply go around the force or turn if off. Redirect the force. But don't fight against it.

Do you agree Hendrik?

What is the purpose of rooting?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik there are guys out there who can drop their weight to floor where they can not be taking down. When I took Aikido they practiced this. But not with a horsestance. I myself do not practice the root this way so I would use my root to stop from being taking down. I would use my techniques to advoid take downs. Simply why stand and root when you can move out the way. Can rooting in the ground stop a elephant from pushing you down. Eventually your arm or legs will weaken or tire.

Anyway Hendrik as for Rooting in Wing Chun. I believe it is used for striking. With a root you can strike through your opponent an send them flying. There is a guy who trains Bagua who came to tai chi class to demostrate this. Now he is not a master an could not demostrate it in actual fighting fashion. But it could be use in a fight if you timed it right. Which takes practice on his part. Of course if you have a root I will just strike you in the nose. I don't care about your root. If you try to uproot me I simply move or take a step. Same with take downs.

Hendrik I know you understand about the root. Its only one the Six directions!

You can force Pressure down into ground or you can lift force upwards using your stance(Make your stance light). Of course you direct force outwards or backwards or to your left and right.

Six Directional Force Transferences.
East
West
North
South
Heaven
Earth

It depends on your purpose. Are you using it to strike, uproot, or turn off energy

In Wing Chun you never fight against force. If someone tries to pull you then go with them. If they try to push you go with the push. If you resist the push the impact will result in a striking power. If you resist the pull you are straining your joints. If you follow the force an add to it when pulled you achieve a great power behind your punch.

For instance I am in Yee Kim Yeung Ma. You attempt to jerk me out of stance. I front step forward with the jerk while chainpunching you in the nose. Momentum Plus my velocity will increase my whole body strength upon impact. I am using my own force along with your force in the intial pull to attack you.

What happens if I resist or pull backwards when you jerk me. Well you could let go an I fall on my arse. You could let go an step foward an side kick me adding to my backward motion causing me to fall on my arse harder.

So if a grappler is trying to take you down. Well you have Huen Sau principles. Simply go around the force or turn if off. Redirect the force. But don't fight against it.

Do you agree Hendrik?

What is the purpose of rooting?



You still trap in your mind speculation and not see the reality.

[Yoshiyahu]

You still trap in your mind speculation and not see the reality.

Please share with me how I am trapped from your point of view?

[Hendrik]

Please share with me how I am trapped from your point of view?

If you keep thinking with the same mind set you will keep end up in the same place.



That is the reason I always suggest you go bai si to some one who knows.

Because a good sifu will expand or break through one's mind set and lead to progress.






In Wing Chun you never fight against force. If someone tries to pull you then go with them. If they try to push you go with the push. If you resist the push the impact will result in a striking power. If you resist the pull you are straining your joints. If you follow the force an add to it when pulled you achieve a great power behind your punch.



if you really know to flow with the force then you will not post the above. The above post shows you are manupulate by the others already.



instead you will say something like

If they try to push you they can keep pushing but find no focal to land thier force.



Obviously, you are keep thinking and speculating but have never meet a real deal.

[Yoshiyahu]

if you keep thinking with the same mind set you will keep end up in the same place.



That is the reason i always suggest you go bai si to some one who knows.

Because a good sifu will expand or break through one's mind set and lead to progress.








If you really know to flow with the force then you will not post the above. The above post shows you are manupulate by the others already.



Instead you will say something like

if they try to push you they can keep pushing but find no focal to land thier force.



Obviously, you are keep thinking and speculating but have never meet a real deal.

come to st.louis let me test your theory and show you what i mean when someone pushes go with it. When some one pulls go with it.

[Hendrik]

come to st.louis let me test your theory and show you what i mean when someone pushes go with it. When some one pulls go with it.


Thanks, I am not interested in your pushes go with it.
sanjuro_ronin can tell you a kyokushin is more interested in Ichigeki.

http://www.martial-arts-video.net/2008/03/ichigeki-kyokushin-karate.html


In case you want to know more on what I descrip on the push and pull.
There are plenty of people in the planet which can do it.
May be you need to go seek them out and learn from them.

[Pacman]

hendrik,

i recognize your english to be that of a person whose first language was chinese. is this true?

[Hendrik]

hendrik,

i recognize your english to be that of a person whose first language was chinese. is this true?

Yup! you are almost correct but not quiet.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yup! you are almost correct but not quiet.

Hendrik first language may be English but he may have learning disability like dyselxia?

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks, I am not interested in your pushes go with it.
sanjuro_ronin can tell you a kyokushin is more interested in Ichigeki.

http://www.martial-arts-video.net/2008/03/ichigeki-kyokushin-karate.html


In case you want to know more on what I descrip on the push and pull.
There are plenty of people in the planet which can do it.
May be you need to go seek them out and learn from them.

What is Ichigeki?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5sf2s0oC3k

Is this it???


Hendrik are you proficient at one strike one hit?

Whats wrong with Kyoshukin Karate guy here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MBjXhAHNw&feature=quicklist

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is Ichigeki?

Ichigeki is the "principle" of the application of "Ikken Hissatsu" or "one punch one kill".
Its about creating the maximum damage with every strike, a core principle of all karate systems, though one not typiclaly applied by most.


Whats wrong with Kyoshukin Karate guy here?

He got beat by a better and professional fighter, there is nothing "wrong" about it.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you for a great answer. Now I can not wait to hear Mr. Hendrik analogy?




Ichigeki is the "principle" of the application of "Ikken Hissatsu" or "one punch one kill".
Its about creating the maximum damage with every strike, a core principle of all karate systems, though one not typiclaly applied by most.



He got beat by a better and professional fighter, there is nothing "wrong" about it.

[Pacman]

Ichigeki is the "principle" of the application of "Ikken Hissatsu" or "one punch one kill".
Its about creating the maximum damage with every strike, a core principle of all karate systems, though one not typiclaly applied by most.



He got beat by a better and professional fighter, there is nothing "wrong" about it.

yes a different philosophy. when you see a karate guy fight he will usually be waiting for the perfect shot

this is in direct opposition to WC stylists who, although not opposed to taking good shots and safe entries, seek continuous hits (think wooden dummy form and the combinations and how you hit everywhere on the body continuously)

[Hendrik]

Ichigeki is the "principle" of the application of "Ikken Hissatsu" or "one punch one kill".
Its about creating the maximum damage with every strike, a core principle of all karate systems, though one not typiclaly applied by most.



He got beat by a better and professional fighter, there is nothing "wrong" about it.


I totally agree!

[Violent Designs]

Yoshiyahu, SHUT THE **** UP.

[Kansuke]

Hendrik there are guys out there who can drop their weight to floor where they can not be taking down.


Um, no. :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

Yoshiyahu, SHUT THE **** UP.

what do you think of this video?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuVVQchKiZ8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuVR2W0Q_C4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d-vrKdwQfI&feature=quicklist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrR92jd0pNM&feature=related

[Violent Designs]

what do you think of this video?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuVVQchKiZ8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuVR2W0Q_C4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d-vrKdwQfI&feature=quicklist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrR92jd0pNM&feature=related

I think you're a moron.

[AdrianK]

Hendrik first language may be English but he may have learning disability like dyselxia?

Judging by this post I'd say your first language isn't english either! :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Um, no. :rolleyes:

Um, yes.
If someone drops their weight down, totally down on the floor, ie: they are laying flat, how can anyone take them down?
:p

[Yoshiyahu]

Um, yes.
If someone drops their weight down, totally down on the floor, ie: they are laying flat, how can anyone take them down?
:p

If they are laying down thats where the mount or rear mount comes in?

[m1k3]

If they are laying down thats where the mount or rear mount comes in?

If they are laying down that where picking up a cinder block and dropping it on them comes in. :D

[Yoshiyahu]

If they are laying down that where picking up a cinder block and dropping it on them comes in. :D

You totally lost me...what are you talking about here?

[m1k3]

It was a sport vs street joke. In sport that would be the time to get a mount, in a fight if they are laying down it is a good time to either run away or smack them with something heavy before they can get up....Then run away.

[Yoshiyahu]

It was a sport vs street joke. In sport that would be the time to get a mount, in a fight if they are laying down it is a good time to either run away or smack them with something heavy before they can get up....Then run away.

ooh i didn't improv that a S went at the end of the "That"

[Hendrik]

All these ROOTing stuffs,

I am waiting for the word " hang" but since none mention it.

The conclusion is none knows what is Rooting.

[Pacman]

what is this "hang"?

[Violent Designs]

All these ROOTing stuffs,

I am waiting for the word " hang" but since none mention it.

The conclusion is none knows what is Rooting.

No one, except for you right?

[Hendrik]

No one, except for you right?


You do MMA and not WCK right?

[Hendrik]

what is this "hang"?


Are you a WCner?

[Yoshiyahu]

Are you a WCner?

I am WChner please tell me what is hang?

Or do you mean Yang?

[Hendrik]

do you mean Yang?


NOPE, Hang is Hang as Hanging or suspension.


I would like to hear how those in here who advocate ROOT, Rooting... to say something.

[Pacman]

yes i know what you are talking about. often cited in tai chi and bagua as well.

you are referring to spinal alignment, right? like you are hanging or being suspended from your head?

this also leads into the talk of the spine being like a straight pole in a house right?

[Hendrik]

yes i know what you are talking about. often cited in tai chi and bagua as well.

you are referring to spinal alignment, right? like you are hanging or being suspended from your head?

this also leads into the talk of the spine being like a straight pole in a house right?




If so, do you still advocate Hunch Back?

and


leads into the talk of the spine being like a straight pole in a house right?

That tell me what you read and think but thinking is not Knowing.

[Pacman]

i didnt read any of this anywhere. it comes from my teachers knowledge and explanation of taiji, bagua, and xing yi and the similarities and differences with wc, which is also a soft and internal style.

i know about their principles, but of course we have ours too.

[Hendrik]

these Rooting stuffs are extermely simple and extremely clear,


Similar to a bird place on a net.


If the term Rooting is absolutely needed to be applied here.

The bird needs that one "kick/push" to take off. That is rooting to issue.

The net if soft enough as soon as it be able to disolve that one "kick/push" the bird will never take off. that is rooting to disolve.

Thus, one has the Issue Jin and Dissolve jin case here. complete.

Simple nature stuffs. Why go to Xingyi, bagua.......and still lost.






Now look at all these talks about root ... do you have root.... structure....

Most people are actually building a water tower: Some use triangle rack, some try to drill a 100 feet down to the ground....

Well, none of these are net or bird. Thus, all of these are DEAD stuffs.






and for the Bird to fly it is not just the kick but balance in the six direction force vectors in the 3 D space.

Similarly, for the net to be able to absorb the "kick" it needs to balance in the six direction force vectros in the 3 D space.

it is certainly not just ROOT it needs to have the component of levitate and side balancing.
So, again, the term Root is misleading. thus, even CXW of Chen Taiji doesnt use that ROOT word but use "eight direction support force". and all those knows use also the six direction force vectors term.




So can one's YJKYM /SLT train to do that? if not what is it good for? extremely limited and demonstration stuffs only.


Wake up from this misleading ROOTING STUFFS . Going that way is similar to build a water tower with a wishfull thinking it is not going to collpase when push by a buldoze as soon as it is root deep enough. It doesnt work.

sure all ideas sounds great. but look where does those wishful ideas lead one? stuck.

[Pacman]

as usual i have no idea what you are talking about.

please be clear and concise and do not use an obscure analogy.

[Hendrik]

as usual i have no idea what you are talking about.

please be clear and concise and do not use an obscure analogy.



You are certainly right.



However, for some it is clearly precise and concise.

anyone wants to give a try to decode my post? Please feel free.

if needed I can explain more later.

[CFT]

I think post #186 by Hendrik was clearer than any other of his posts I've read. I didn't think the analogies were contrived at all.

Rooting to issue force, rooting to dissolve/diffuse incoming force.

The 6/8 directional vectors he is talking about is to illustrate the fact that rooting is a dynamic process not a static posture.

[Hendrik]

I think post #186 by Hendrik was clearer than any other of his posts I've read. I didn't think the analogies were contrived at all.

Rooting to issue force, rooting to dissolve/diffuse incoming force.

The 6/8 directional vectors he is talking about is to illustrate the fact that rooting is a dynamic process not a static posture.



yes.

In the 6 directional force vectors description platform.

as a bird, one needs to be able to use that " kick/push/downward force vector/"root" along with other 5 directional force vector to take off.----- to issue jin.

as a net, one needs to be able to disolve the incoming force using the balancing of the "downward force vector/"root" along with other 5 directional force vectors. ---- to disolve incoming jin.


In the past, people put a bird on their hand and the bird cant take off. it is to that level they can transform themself as a "net". and this ability is not just ROOT as some think --- to redirect the incoming force to the ground....etc. it involve "rearrange " of the incoming force vectors. Thus , it is very very very important to be able to "levitate" /suspend/ hang ..... combine with the downward force vectors beside the other 4 side directional force vectors balancing.



now,

can one standing in YJKYM, tensing the leg muscle, locking the knees, brute force the hip movements, tilt(sp?) the tail bone.... hunch the back.... perform the above two basic functions ----- able to issue and able to disolve?

if not then disregard of what one think. it is a muscular force against muscular/muscle force training. Is that "root" refer by the internal artist or the soft internal artist?


Wake up man, standing there like a pyramid is only to make you a mummy or dummy.

[Violent Designs]

What is your opinion on the SPM hunch back posture and stance in regard to rooting?

I do not study SPM or a related style. So I do not really know.

[Hendrik]

What is your opinion on the SPM hunch back posture and stance in regard to rooting?

I do not study SPM or a related style. So I do not really know.



Good point, I hope someone who is good with SPM can share with us on this.

[Pacman]

What is your opinion on the SPM hunch back posture and stance in regard to rooting?

I do not study SPM or a related style. So I do not really know.

what about the hunchback posture? it is also present in lineages of WC too



yes.

In the 6 directional force vectors description platform.

as a bird, one needs to be able to use that " kick/push/downward force vector/"root" along with other 5 directional force vector to take off.----- to issue jin.

as a net, one needs to be able to disolve the incoming force using the balancing of the "downward force vector/"root" along with other 5 directional force vectors. ---- to disolve incoming jin.


In the past, people put a bird on their hand and the bird cant take off. it is to that level they can transform themself as a "net". and this ability is not just ROOT as some think --- to redirect the incoming force to the ground....etc. it involve "rearrange " of the incoming force vectors. Thus , it is very very very important to be able to "levitate" /suspend/ hang ..... combine with the downward force vectors beside the other 4 side directional force vectors balancing.



now,

can one standing in YJKYM, tensing the leg muscle, locking the knees, brute force the hip movements, tilt(sp?) the tail bone.... hunch the back.... perform the above two basic functions ----- able to issue and able to disolve?

if not then disregard of what one think. it is a muscular force against muscular/muscle force training. Is that "root" refer by the internal artist or the soft internal artist?


Wake up man, standing there like a pyramid is only to make you a mummy or dummy.

i think you have a deep misunderstanding. not your fault. probably had a WC teacher who could not differentiate between training excercises and application when teaching

i, and i dont think anyone else here, is advocating standing like an immobile pyramid during a fight.

[Violent Designs]

Good point, I hope someone who is good with SPM can share with us on this.

Where is Mr. Richard Gamboa? :)

[Hendrik]

what about the hunchback posture? it is also present in lineages of WC too


What is that hunchback posture in WC for?






i think you have a deep misunderstanding. not your fault. probably had a WC teacher who could not differentiate between training excercises and application when teaching



What make you think like that?

and what is " could not differentiate between training excercises and application when teaching" ?





i dont think anyone else here, is advocating standing like an immobile pyramid during a fight.

ok. then what do you do? how do you stand?

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay let me decipher hendriks sayings for you Pacman

1. Rooting in his opinion is easily understood and simple and clear

2.Imagine a bird pirched on roped net similiar to net that catches trapeeze acrobatics.

3.He is saying the ability for a bird to take off from being on a net will be extremely difficult because it will not have enough solidity as it would on the ground. It will not have a strong foundation to run or leap off the ground to gain flight.

4.He is saying the Net when it receives weight gives and when it feels lightness it rises. similiar to if you to try to stand straight up on net an jump. It will be hard to jump very high because when your feet lift up so does the net. It kinda of goes with you. He is giving an illustration of bird because animals are apart of nature. So a basic point of reference you can imagine.

5.Six directional force vectors are the following Up,Down,Left Side,Right Side, Front and Back. He is saying one must not only concentrate on Downward or Rooting force but also upward force such as light skills like jumping or Turning force. Or pushing force or pulling force etc.

6.When you train Sil Lim Tao he is saying be aware of more than just one force with your structure. That way you can issue Jin in all of your techniques while doing SLT. There are different techniques in SLT an some use forward or backwards force. So train all six directional vectors and don't get stuck doing just one. He is saying its a waste of energy to invest all your time training Just ROOT (Downward Directional Vector). You should focus on all points of your structure.

7.So the key is to learn how to send energy into the ground,to the left to right behind you and push energy away from you an also send it upward.

In other words someone throws straight punch at your forehead tok sau can send the force upward. If someone runs at you to tackle you use your waist to shift your center line or step out the way. You can move backwards to take away forward pressure. side step to advoid a collision. or step forward to uproot an opponent who is bearing down on you. When you feel someone trying to up root you lighting your step an go around his slow rooting force an strike deep with in.

These are the words Hendrik wishes to say to you. Theres alot more! But I shorten it for you...He doesn't know how to speak the common vernacular I think?


these Rooting stuffs are extermely simple and extremely clear,


Similar to a bird place on a net.


If the term Rooting is absolutely needed to be applied here.

The bird needs that one "kick/push" to take off. That is rooting to issue.

The net if soft enough as soon as it be able to disolve that one "kick/push" the bird will never take off. that is rooting to disolve.

Thus, one has the Issue Jin and Dissolve jin case here. complete.

Simple nature stuffs. Why go to Xingyi, bagua.......and still lost.






Now look at all these talks about root ... do you have root.... structure....

Most people are actually building a water tower: Some use triangle rack, some try to drill a 100 feet down to the ground....

Well, none of these are net or bird. Thus, all of these are DEAD stuffs.






and for the Bird to fly it is not just the kick but balance in the six direction force vectors in the 3 D space.

Similarly, for the net to be able to absorb the "kick" it needs to balance in the six direction force vectros in the 3 D space.

it is certainly not just ROOT it needs to have the component of levitate and side balancing.
So, again, the term Root is misleading. thus, even CXW of Chen Taiji doesnt use that ROOT word but use "eight direction support force". and all those knows use also the six direction force vectors term.




So can one's YJKYM /SLT train to do that? if not what is it good for? extremely limited and demonstration stuffs only.


Wake up from this misleading ROOTING STUFFS . Going that way is similar to build a water tower with a wishfull thinking it is not going to collpase when push by a buldoze as soon as it is root deep enough. It doesnt work.

sure all ideas sounds great. but look where does those wishful ideas lead one? stuck.

[Hendrik]

In other words someone throws straight punch at your forehead tok sau can send the force upward.

If someone runs at you to tackle you use your waist to shift your center line or step out the way.


You can move backwards to take away forward pressure.

When you feel someone trying to up root you lighting your step an go around his slow rooting force an strike deep with in.
?



Nope that is not what I am saying.

[Pacman]

ok thanks. so actually i understood what he was saying from the beginning, but i doubted myself because it seems there are some things in his post that contradict.

here it is.

rooting is about re-directing force to the ground. whether it comes from left right front or back.

likewise if you can direct force TO the ground from these directions, you can also direct FROM the ground to these directions, so rooting is also about directing force from the ground.


so the bird can push off in any direction because it has a solid footing. the bird can also absorb impact because it can redirect the force to its solid footing


Okay let me decipher hendriks sayings for you Pacman

1. Rooting in his opinion is easily understood and simple and clear

2.Imagine a bird pirched on roped net similiar to net that catches trapeeze acrobatics.

3.He is saying the ability for a bird to take off from being on a net will be extremely difficult because it will not have enough solidity as it would on the ground. It will not have a strong foundation to run or leap off the ground to gain flight.

4.He is saying the Net when it receives weight gives and when it feels lightness it rises. similiar to if you to try to stand straight up on net an jump. It will be hard to jump very high because when your feet lift up so does the net. It kinda of goes with you. He is giving an illustration of bird because animals are apart of nature. So a basic point of reference you can imagine.

5.Six directional force vectors are the following Up,Down,Left Side,Right Side, Front and Back. He is saying one must not only concentrate on Downward or Rooting force but also upward force such as light skills like jumping or Turning force. Or pushing force or pulling force etc.

6.When you train Sil Lim Tao he is saying be aware of more than just one force with your structure. That way you can issue Jin in all of your techniques while doing SLT. There are different techniques in SLT an some use forward or backwards force. So train all six directional vectors and don't get stuck doing just one. He is saying its a waste of energy to invest all your time training Just ROOT (Downward Directional Vector). You should focus on all points of your structure.

7.So the key is to learn how to send energy into the ground,to the left to right behind you and push energy away from you an also send it upward.

In other words someone throws straight punch at your forehead tok sau can send the force upward. If someone runs at you to tackle you use your waist to shift your center line or step out the way. You can move backwards to take away forward pressure. side step to advoid a collision. or step forward to uproot an opponent who is bearing down on you. When you feel someone trying to up root you lighting your step an go around his slow rooting force an strike deep with in.

These are the words Hendrik wishes to say to you. Theres alot more! But I shorten it for you...He doesn't know how to speak the common vernacular I think?

[Hendrik]

rooting is about re-directing force to the ground.
whether it comes from left right front or back.



This exactly shows you dont understand what I am presenting.

[Liddel]

This exactly shows you dont understand what I am presenting.

Rooting is a result of the coriolis effect, jeez 14 pages of something no one on earth can escape on thier own...crazy !

DREW

[Yoshiyahu]

ok thanks. so actually i understood what he was saying from the beginning, but i doubted myself because it seems there are some things in his post that contradict.

here it is.

rooting is about re-directing force to the ground. whether it comes from left right front or back.

likewise if you can direct force TO the ground from these directions, you can also direct FROM the ground to these directions, so rooting is also about directing force from the ground.


so the bird can push off in any direction because it has a solid footing. the bird can also absorb impact because it can redirect the force to its solid footing

Excellent but now conceal what you said by using mumbo jumbo talk...then re-type so hendrik can understand it.


This exactly shows you dont understand what I am presenting.


Nope that is not what I am saying.

Hendrik yes. Rooting is nothingness. It is empty space. Rooting is not stuff. One should utilize the meridans openings. first begin to open the meridans to become alive. with out chi there is no life. the eight directional vectors can assist in this endeavor look for flow look for softness riding on the wind. Look with out looking. Learn with out seeking. When you have to think about it you are not doing it. Can a bird root on top of water. No, it cant. Rooting what is this stuff. It is a myth or misconception that the mind can not perceived. It is stated by it not exist. It is obscure an confusing. rooting nothingness. seek the six vectors issuing force like jin. Sorry if I misunerstood you! The root is misleading its a concept to teach you about power generation being supported. There is no root in advance Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. The Root is distortion to ancients of Wing Chun Kuen! Its a lie to issue force from ground up by way of root. Is this correct hendrik?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik yes. Rooting is nothingness. It is empty space. Rooting is not stuff. One should utilize the meridans openings. first begin to open the meridans to become alive. with out chi there is no life. the eight directional vectors can assist in this endeavor look for flow look for softness riding on the wind. Look with out looking. Learn with out seeking. When you have to think about it you are not doing it. Can a bird root on top of water. No, it cant. Rooting what is this stuff. It is a myth or misconception that the mind can not perceived. It is stated by it not exist. It is obscure an confusing. rooting nothingness. seek the six vectors issuing force like jin. Sorry if I misunerstood you! The root is misleading its a concept to teach you about power generation being supported. There is no root in advance Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. The Root is distortion to ancients of Wing Chun Kuen! Its a lie to issue force from ground up by way of root. Is this correct hendrik?



You are day dreaming.

[Yoshiyahu]

You are day dreaming.

that is correct. Dreaming of day with streaming waters beating down the guards of my foe like a rushing wave crushes houses built with rock,stone and cement. Notice how the water can even devaste a house built from the earth of wood concrete and steel. How the devastation of powerful wave of water can send that home crashing down to ground. Harness this force with your Wing Chun an be like Water. An crush your opponents structure and open the gates. Then Like Rock destroy thier castle.

[anerlich]

Which of you two will win this race to the bottom? Who will come up with the biggest smelliest, pile of toxic, false Zen patriach, pseudometaphysical elephant****?

WGAF?

Realise that you are both only taking to each other. Why do either of you want that?

THe kool aid is redolent on this thread.

[Yoshiyahu]

Tired of my Pseudo Zen. Please share your true Zen?
Which of you two will win this race to the bottom? Who will come up with the biggest smelliest, pile of toxic, false Zen patriach, pseudometaphysical elephant****?

WGAF?

Realise that you are both only taking to each other. Why do either of you want that?

THe kool aid is redolent on this thread.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

If you can root for 6 hours while standing in a live septic tank, you win.

Everything.













Well, almost everything. I doubt you'll get the girl.

[Lee Chiang Po]

???? Are you all still debating this issue? Yoshi, you are wasting your time here. Rooting is not some mystical, magic, or otherwise supernatural ability. It is as simple as bracing yourself to focus your energy. Punch, kick or whatever. Hendrik will tell you that you know nothing and indicate that he knows all, but no matter what, he is never, ever going to give you a straight answer. Never. Mostly because he does not know what the hell he is talking about. If he did, he would have explained it to you about 200 posts ago. I asked him to explain it to me as plain as he could, but he hit me with some silly mumbo jumbo. Then he tells me that the reason I didn't understand him was that I had no concept of Rooting or whatever. I don't speak Tagalogg either.
When you see these guys standing there with several people trying to lift them or move them off a spot, it is simply a parlor trick. I weigh right at 190 pounds right now, and there is no man alive that can pick me up from where I stand. It is a simple parlor trick that anyone can perform. It is not some energy force emitting from the ground to hold me in place. That is all a great big crock. Try this. Stand on your bathroom scales and think all sorts of stuff that is recommended by some of these gurus and see if the reading chances.

[Yoshiyahu]

So true...Excellent advice. Well I am not debating having a little fun talking mumbo jumbo to hendrik...

check my other two post where I speak on his level?



???? Are you all still debating this issue? Yoshi, you are wasting your time here. Rooting is not some mystical, magic, or otherwise supernatural ability. It is as simple as bracing yourself to focus your energy. Punch, kick or whatever. Hendrik will tell you that you know nothing and indicate that he knows all, but no matter what, he is never, ever going to give you a straight answer. Never. Mostly because he does not know what the hell he is talking about. If he did, he would have explained it to you about 200 posts ago. I asked him to explain it to me as plain as he could, but he hit me with some silly mumbo jumbo. Then he tells me that the reason I didn't understand him was that I had no concept of Rooting or whatever. I don't speak Tagalogg either.
When you see these guys standing there with several people trying to lift them or move them off a spot, it is simply a parlor trick. I weigh right at 190 pounds right now, and there is no man alive that can pick me up from where I stand. It is a simple parlor trick that anyone can perform. It is not some energy force emitting from the ground to hold me in place. That is all a great big crock. Try this. Stand on your bathroom scales and think all sorts of stuff that is recommended by some of these gurus and see if the reading chances.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik will tell you that you know nothing and indicate that he knows all, but no matter what, he is never, ever going to give you a straight answer. Never. Mostly because he does not know what the hell he is talking about. If he did, he would have explained it to you about 200 posts ago.

You are absolutely right according to your view.






I asked him to explain it to me as plain as he could, but he hit me with some silly mumbo jumbo. Then he tells me that the reason I didn't understand him was that I had no concept of Rooting or whatever. I don't speak Tagalogg either.


Sure, a 3 Dimensional physics with 6 force vectors is some silly mumbo jumbo.

How come they use these type of mumbo jumbo for Earthquake Engineering & Structural Dynamics?


.....At the present time, there is a need for a rational approach for the analysis and design of three-dimensional structures subjected to multi-component earthquake motions.....

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/114025671/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0




Wake up guys, this is not 1900 China.
This is the time those Chinese rooting.....fajin can be model with dynamic mechanical simulation.

see they even do the following.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007smallarms/5_9_07/Rodriguez_500pm.pdf





one can think and dream what they want. But if that cannot be explained with these MUMBO JUMBO, how can one repeat it clearly?

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendrik How did the Chinese repeat Fajin issuiance some 300 years ago before the use or knowledge of english words; vectors, dimentional, directional force?



You are absolutely right according to your view.







Sure, a 3 Dimensional physics with 6 force vectors is some silly mumbo jumbo.

How come they use these type of mumbo jumbo for Earthquake Engineering & Structural Dynamics?

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/114025671/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0




Wake up guys, this is not 1900 China. This is the time all those Chinese fajin can be model with dynamic simulation.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007smallarms/5_9_07/Rodriguez_500pm.pdf


See, one can think what they want. But if that cannot be explained with these MUMBO JUMBO, how can one repeat it?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik How did the Chinese repeat Fajin issuiance some 300 years ago before the use or knowledge of english words; vectors, dimentional, directional force?

Simple,

They baisi with those who knows and the sifu fine tuning the student until the student gets it.

Sure, it is not an effective process at all ; takes years and some still cant get it.
Thus, only a few can grasp it, they call those indoor student or the lineage holder.

and

Today, with today's technology one can precisely/repeat accelerate the learning. Since you all choose to ROOTING your way and called the 3 D dynamics mumbo jumbo.

Great! sweat dream as you like it.

I am out of this discussion.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thankyou Hendrik?




Simple,

They baisi with those who knows and the sifu fine tuning the student until the student gets it.

Sure, it is not an effective process at all ; takes years and some still cant get it.
Thus, only a few can grasp it, they call those indoor student or the lineage holder.

and

Today, with today's technology one can precisely/repeat accelerate the learning. Since you all choose to ROOTING your way and called the 3 D dynamics mumbo jumbo.

Great! sweat dream as you like it.

I am out of this discussion.