Wing Chun in MMA?

[Keefer]

Has anyone seen someone trained in Wing Chun compete in Mixed Martial Arts? I was wondering how a Wing Chun practitioner will do against other fighting arts in a sports setting as well real life.

[CFT]

Alan Orr and his 'Iron Wolves' team do.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53696

But so do others on this forum. I'll let them speak for themselves.

[anerlich]

The results in sportfighting events have not favoured "pure" Wing Chun stylists.

You have to train and adapt for the rules and the type of contest itself. Doing lots of forms and chi sao won't help much in MMA. Trying to "adapt" WC to work on the ground against BJJ stylists is like taking a peashooter to a firefight.

My instructors organisation is not a "pure" Wing Chun school, but we have clocked up wins in MMA, kickboxing, and BJJ. One of my Sidais won his division in a BJJ contest on the weekend, Our Tasmanian branch regularly top the medals in their BJJ state titles. They even won a team forms competition doing Chum Kil.

WC can be adapted, though in some areas it's better augmented. Any limitations you see are your own.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun = Striking close quarter infight

MMA = Total fight at all ranges including ground


Do the math :cool:

[Phil Redmond]

Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL_qJz8VsXI

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun = Striking close quarter infight

MMA = Total fight at all ranges including ground


Do the math :cool:



I think its simpler than that?

Take someone who trains as a street fighter an place in the ring against a skilled Kickboxer or western boxer. He may be the best street fighter but a medicore ring fighter. One reason is because he use to fighting with out gloves. So alot of his common habits will be hendered there...

Take an average MMA guy who trains boxing,Muay Thai and BJJ and put in the Tae Kwon Do tournment or have him fight on a boxing circuit. He will not fair well. Most of his weapons he can not use. If his strongest weapon is the Jitjisu or Kicking fighting a boxer with boxing gloves and rules will hinder his fighting ability.


Parallel Scenarios:
Take a boxer and have him fight in the Tae Kwon Do Olympics.

Have an MMA guy Fight in TKD Olympics.

Have a Kick boxer enter a push hands or chi competition.

Have a Muay Thai figher fight in a Boxing Circuit.

Put a boxer in full contact Karate tournment.

The problem is they do not train for so sort of competition so all of them will be at a disadvantage. The same with a WC guy who trains for street combat.


All these scenarios have limitations yes. But the main point is how do you train? How do you defend against attacks. What type of attacks do you defend against.


Sad to say the only way to truly test true skill would be a kumite where there are no rules. A No rule Letai fighting match would be the only way to even out the playing field.

[anerlich]

I think its simpler than that?


LOL at that theoretical ****storm being simpler than Vic's three short statements.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

I think its simpler than that?

Take someone who trains as a street fighter an place in the ring against a skilled Kickboxer or western boxer. He may be the best street fighter but a medicore ring fighter. One reason is because he use to fighting with out gloves. So alot of his common habits will be hendered there...

Take an average MMA guy who trains boxing,Muay Thai and BJJ and put in the Tae Kwon Do tournment or have him fight on a boxing circuit. He will not fair well. Most of his weapons he can not use. If his strongest weapon is the Jitjisu or Kicking fighting a boxer with boxing gloves and rules will hinder his fighting ability.


Parallel Scenarios:
Take a boxer and have him fight in the Tae Kwon Do Olympics.

Have an MMA guy Fight in TKD Olympics.

Have a Kick boxer enter a push hands or chi competition.

Have a Muay Thai figher fight in a Boxing Circuit.

Put a boxer in full contact Karate tournment.

The problem is they do not train for so sort of competition so all of them will be at a disadvantage. The same with a WC guy who trains for street combat.


All these scenarios have limitations yes. But the main point is how do you train? How do you defend against attacks. What type of attacks do you defend against.


Sad to say the only way to truly test true skill would be a kumite where there are no rules. A No rule Letai fighting match would be the only way to even out the playing field.



this sounds like a guy that trained with us back in the day, he didnt want to take the time to understand the system as a whole totally ignored the fact that in a fight you CAN be taken to the ground, someone CAN clinch to grapple you people CAN throw you This isnt a personal attack but he tried his luck in the cage, being a defensive only fighter and lost. Make your game as a circle, well rounded

2 things i keep inmind when im sparring:

1.come foreword
2. sh*t happens

[Ultimatewingchun]

"2 things i keep inmind when im sparring:"


1.come foreword
2. sh*t happens

............................................


***Ha! Ha! Ha! I love it. Gonna steal that one! ;) :D

[couch]

Has anyone seen someone trained in Wing Chun compete in Mixed Martial Arts? I was wondering how a Wing Chun practitioner will do against other fighting arts in a sports setting as well real life.

IMO, it comes down to how you're training. A lot of folks in the martial arts community aren't in it to win it. They're playing patty cake and dodgeball at the local Tae Kwon Do school.

And you have to honest to yourself as well. What do you want to get out of Wing Chun? Do want to adapt Wing Chun for the ring? Do it. But you have to think of everything else in between: conditioning and other ranges.

The fact is that your instructor can very well pass on the system to you. But maybe your instructor is a Chi Sau addict. Or maybe your instructor isn't in his prime anymore, etc. Doesn't matter either way. You are fighting and have chosen Wing Chun as your style of expression. Gotta turn up the heat and the only one who can do that is you.

So there's two sides to this: you gotta have the ability (or network of people)to rip WC apart and you gotta have the ability (or network of people) to put it back together in a fight context.

People want to know about what I do for a martial art all the time. "Is it relaxing like Tai Chi?" they ask. "No," I reply. "It's for hitting people in the head with."

And then the conversation-ender is when they ask, "You don't really hit each other when you're training, do you?"

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So there's two sides to this: you gotta have the ability (or network of people) to rip WC apart and you gotta have the ability (or network of people) to put it back together in a fight context."


***EXCELLENT point, couch.

I've had students (and friends) from as far back as 20 years ago who first came to me with boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, karate skills - and we've been doing what you suggest right to this very day.

And I've learned more about how to tear it down and build it back up fightwise from working out with these guys than I could ever hope to do by simply working with wing chun-only people.

Because no one single fighting style has all the the important answers to fighting - you must do a blend or some sort if you want to be on top of the game.

[OdderMensch]

this sounds like a guy that trained with us back in the day, he didnt want to take the time to understand the system as a whole totally ignored the fact that in a fight you CAN be taken to the ground, someone CAN clinch to grapple you people CAN throw you This isnt a personal attack but he tried his luck in the cage, being a defensive only fighter and lost. Make your game as a circle, well rounded

2 things i keep in mind when im sparring:

1.come foreword
2. sh*t happens

Well I agree Completely with the last part of your Post, **** does indeed happen!

But "the system as a whole totally ignored the fact that in a fight you CAN be taken to the ground, someone CAN clinch to grapple you people CAN throw you.."

I have to disagree strongly with that.

Someone can clinch you :
yes, absolutely they can! and If you keep your elbows in the right place, your stance properly rooted (allowing for mobility) and your pressure forward you can also disrupt the clinch and find yourself in short striking distance in the inside of the clincher. We practice a series of "clinch Drills" that begin with "ok I've clinched you, now what" and have tested it against a few wrestlers.

Someone can throw you:
Yes, but it is very difficult on the part of the thrower if you have a nice, solid stance. I have the privilege of working with Mantis Practitioners, solid "throwers" and they rarely throw us! Not that it can't happen, its just a bit of a chore for them.

You can go to the ground:
Naturally, gravity still applied in Old China you know. There is a belief (I think a mistaken one) that Chinese don't fight on the ground because it was 'distasteful' to them" But China has had some of the down and dirtiest fighters in history and distaste or not they fought on the ground, from the ground and with the ground. BJJ and other systems have a nice, very well thought out ground game, but that does not mean i am going to give up as soon as my feet leave Terra frima! And yes Wing Chun has Di Tong (Ground Tactics) that go well beyond clawing and pinching from a fetal position. I'm not gonna win any BJJ matches, but i think I can get up and away.


MMA has become a specialized environment, of course people who train with and for that environment are going to win in that environment 9 times out of ten. I, personally, never plan to fight in that environment.

I understand and appreciate that yours was not a personal attack, and i hope no one sees mine as on either.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Odder you're delusional. Time taken to experience working against people who really know how and when to clinch and/or go for a takedown, and how to set those things up...

is waaaay better than spending hours and hours at the kool aid fountain. :eek:

:D

[Kansuke]

Someone can clinch you :
yes, absolutely they can! and If you keep your elbows in the right place, your stance properly rooted (allowing for mobility) and your pressure forward you can also disrupt the clinch and find yourself in short striking distance in the inside of the clincher. We practice a series of "clinch Drills" that begin with "ok I've clinched you, now what" and have tested it against a few wrestlers.

Someone can throw you:
Yes, but it is very difficult on the part of the thrower if you have a nice, solid stance. I have the privilege of working with Mantis Practitioners, solid "throwers" and they rarely throw us! Not that it can't happen, its just a bit of a chore for them.

You can go to the ground:
Naturally, gravity still applied in Old China you know. There is a belief (I think a mistaken one) that Chinese don't fight on the ground because it was 'distasteful' to them" But China has had some of the down and dirtiest fighters in history and distaste or not they fought on the ground, from the ground and with the ground. BJJ and other systems have a nice, very well thought out ground game, but that does not mean i am going to give up as soon as my feet leave Terra frima! And yes Wing Chun has Di Tong (Ground Tactics) that go well beyond clawing and pinching from a fetal position. I'm not gonna win any BJJ matches, but i think I can get up and away.



..............................wow


:rolleyes:

[OdderMensch]

Well I had a well thought out and even spell checked response, But it seems it did not post.

So I will just ask, what exactly it is that seems far-fetched?

Can I be clinched, thrown, submitted on the ground? Yes I can!

Do I plan to match a BJJ (or any other well trained ground fighter) on the ground? No I don't!

Do I train for the ground? Yes I do. I train in my Kwoon, and I train against people outside of my Kwoon. I've sparred Wrestlers, Kick-Boxers, Other kung Fu styles, other wing chun people, boxers, TKD, Karate and others. I've been to the ground and gotten back up, I've been to the ground and fought, I've been to the ground and stayed there (not by my choice, believe me) and nothing has convinced me that I need to 'Add' anything but more of what my Sifu has to teach me!

UWC - I've been around here for a while, since I first begin training and even if I have not been here for a while I remember you as being a fighter, so I'm certain you will hold your ground and tell me what is wrong with what I have said, you began to in your short post, but please elaborate! Also I hates Kool Aid, too sweet! :D

Kansuke - Don't know you, but you quoted my entire post only to throw down an Emoticon! I know President Lincoln invented them and they are cool, but please use your words man!

[Edmund]

Well I had a well thought out and even spell checked response, But it seems it did not post.

So I will just ask, what exactly it is that seems far-fetched?

Can I be clinched, thrown, submitted on the ground? Yes I can!

Do I plan to match a BJJ (or any other well trained ground fighter) on the ground? No I don't!

Do I train for the ground? Yes I do. I train in my Kwoon, and I train against people outside of my Kwoon.

Not knowing what your WC Di Tong entails, it's difficult to assess what you consider is good enough in terms of ground fighting. You said it was more than clawing and pinching but that still leaves a lot of possibly bad ideas.

[OdderMensch]

Not knowing what your WC Di Tong entails, it's difficult to assess what you consider is good enough in terms of ground fighting. You said it was more than clawing and pinching but that still leaves a lot of possibly bad ideas.

Well I'm full of bad ideas! My own personal theory can be summed in three words.

"Steel Toed Boots"

:D

Ideas in fighting are dangerous things. Much of what has worked for me has come from our basic self defense and beginning exercises.

Assuming that "don't go there" fails, and "get back up" is imprudent, then "relax and hurt" becomes a good idea.

Get on top and hit if you can, cover if you can't "Greet what comes, entertain what remains, rush forth on loss of contact." Practice from possible mounts, both sides of them and how and when mounts may need to adjust. Train, Drill, Mix, Repeat.

Train sensitivity and awareness on the ground as well as standing. Train Hitting from the ground and with the ground.

I've never been taught to rely on vital targets or overly ambitious breaks or locks.

Some to most locks and holds work on the ground pretty much as they do standing, not all of them and its good to know when and why. Practice standing and on the ground, being in them, escaping them and applying them.

And train against people other than friends whenever you can.

[Edmund]

Some to most locks and holds work on the ground pretty much as they do standing, not all of them and its good to know when and why. Practice standing and on the ground, being in them, escaping them and applying them.

And train against people other than friends whenever you can.

I think the issue is that it can be quite difficult to effectively train without knowledge of the fundamentals of groundfighting. While you may never beat an experienced grappler at their own game, you shouldn't be making fundamental errors. The taiji groundfighting clip in the other thread is an example of plenty of errors. That wouldn't happen if people took the time to learn some fundamentals.

[Wayfaring]

I think the issue is that it can be quite difficult to effectively train without knowledge of the fundamentals of groundfighting. While you may never beat an experienced grappler at their own game, you shouldn't be making fundamental errors. The taiji groundfighting clip in the other thread is an example of plenty of errors. That wouldn't happen if people took the time to learn some fundamentals.

You know that's true about the fundamentals. A lot of the upcoming MMA youngsters aren't training straight BJJ and all the nuances or aren't the expert grapplers.

But the difference between them and a lot of the wing chun schools is that they all roll with expert grapplers. They develop their fundamentals like posture and movement first, and their defense to be able to not be submitted in a fight. They develop their top game first combined with strikes.

There's learning in that there approach somewhere, even if someone doesn't want to train to be an expert grappler.

[Genetic]

So there's two sides to this: you gotta have the ability (or network of people)to rip WC apart and you gotta have the ability (or network of people) to put it back together in a fight context.


You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Unfortunately attempting to rip wing chun apart is sacraligeios in certain (mainly wing chun) circles.

Sorry about my spelling.

[Edmund]

But the difference between them and a lot of the wing chun schools is that they all roll with expert grapplers. They develop their fundamentals like posture and movement first, and their defense to be able to not be submitted in a fight. They develop their top game first combined with strikes.


AND they don't probably make a video before that!

[couch]

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Unfortunately attempting to rip wing chun apart is sacraligeios in certain (mainly wing chun) circles.

Sorry about my spelling.

I think research and development is important no matter what you're studying. For many people, their WC they had passed down to them sucks. Mine kinda sucked, too. I honour and respect my Sifu because he spent a lot of time researching his to get it to the level it was at when I learned form him. When I left, he was going in a different direction than me - and I respect that.

It's taken a lot of bridge-building, research and sweat to put things back together - and I'm so proud of where I am now. A good friend told me that the tadpole swims through the mud to get to the clear water. But it shouldn't have to be this way.

To me, the way I view Wing Chun now is completely different than I did before I left my Sifu. In fact, I never knew what the hell I was doing or why I was doing it! LOL

Now, I see Wing Chun in a better light. It's about power generation in a close-quarter scenario. It's about gun-slinger reflexes. It's about destruction of your opponents Centre Of Mass. I look at it no different than Western Boxing - except it's closer and centreline based.

When you start to pressure-test (Goh Sau or Spar), you start to see that all the patty-cake crap goes right out the window. A lot of the 'flashy' stuff from the system also goes out the window. So what are you left with? A punch. A kick. Centreline recovery in the event those don't get through. LOL ...and maybe some other tools depending on your personal disposition/abilities.

Anywho. That's where I see it, and that's where I'm headed!

Cheers!

[Lee Chiang Po]

You guys are embarrising. You argue over stuff you have no clues about. You are comparing everything to MMA fighters. Most of these guys we see in the ring are not really super skilled at much of anything, but are hugely muscled and strong, and even some of the better MMA fighters get their butts kicked. The question of whether or not a Wing chun fighter could stand a chance is silly. Most of these guys hold black belts in other styles of fighting and it don't help them any.So why should WC be any different? The big question to me is not whether a MMA fighter can whip a good wing chun man, but can YOU whip a good wing chun man using your little MMA skills? MMA is fantasy fighting. Looks brutal, but it is just fantasy. Rules out the ears, and a ref that is right there to keep you from being beaten to death. If you are going to fight in the ring you will fight by the same rules as the other guy. You become all equal except for size and strength. Besides, I think I read a while back that a bunch of them got busted over steriod use. Any truth to that?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Lee, I usually agree with most of your posts, but this one is clearly misguided and needs a response...

"You are comparing everything to MMA fighters. Most of these guys we see in the ring are not really super skilled at much of anything, but are hugely muscled and strong..."

***YES, most of them are very conditioned, muscled, and strong - which is exactly what is needed to be a good fighter. Fighting is about WILL, SKILL, AND CONDITIONING - and quite often a better conditioned fighter (whether we're talking mma or anything else) WILL win out over someone with better skills. It happens everyday of the week - including in streetfights. A better skilled fighter can easily be outlasted and/or overpowered by a lesser skilled fighter.

As for "not really super skilled at anything" - there are plenty of mma fighters who DO have good skills at striking/kicking...good skiils at clinch fighting...good skills at ground fighting/wrestling/grappling.

.................................................. ......

"and even some of the better MMA fighters get their butts kicked."

***OF COURSE. Because we are talking about very thin gloves worn when full power punches land, no protective shin or knee pads to absorb leg kicks, body slams and other powerful takedowns, serious submission holds, and equal weight classes.

.................................

"The big question to me is not whether a MMA fighter can whip a good wing chun man, but can YOU whip a good wing chun man using your little MMA skills?"

***AND the keyword here is "little". How about "big" mma skills? What about that?!

................................................


"MMA is fantasy fighting. Looks brutal, but it is just fantasy. Rules out the ears, and a ref that is right there to keep you from being beaten to death. If you are going to fight in the ring you will fight by the same rules as the other guy. You become all equal except for size and strength. Besides, I think I read a while back that a bunch of them got busted over steriod use. Any truth to that?"

***SURE, some guys have been caught roiding. So what? This doesn't change the basic premise AND OVERALL FIGHT EFFICIENCY of crosstraining (MMA).

"Fantasy" you say? This is 180 degrees away from the truth. It's the more traditional martial arts (and especially the stand up striking/kicking styles) that are living in a fantasy world - because they don't take into account what can happen when fighting against skilled fighters who use VERY different fight strategies and techniques - as well as varied strategies and techniques coming from one-and-the-same fighter.

[couch]

You guys are embarrising. You argue over stuff you have no clues about. You are comparing everything to MMA fighters. Most of these guys we see in the ring are not really super skilled at much of anything, but are hugely muscled and strong, and even some of the better MMA fighters get their butts kicked.

The fundamental reason martial art 'styles' get compared to MMA is because of practicality. There are two men, toe to toe, trying to take each other's head off. Yes their are rules, but it's as close to a legalized street fight as we're gonna get. Better take notice.

To say that these fighters are not skilled at much of anything is a blanket statement. There are those that come into the sport that are, perhaps, huge monsters with big muscles. But, in my eyes, those aren't the types of individuals that represent the sport (or those who last long in the sport). Many MMA fighters spend countless hours in the gym refining tried, tested and true martial arts. You can't say they don't have skill. Watching the last boxing fight, Pacquiao countered with a punch and bobbed under Hatton's left hook. That's skill, timing, etc. We see the same amazing demonstration in MMA.

It is true that some of the better MMA fighters do get their butts kicked from time to time. But that doesn't mean that those 'better' fighters aren't skilled. It shows the human condition: that sometimes it's just not your day.



The question of whether or not a Wing chun fighter could stand a chance is silly. Most of these guys hold black belts in other styles of fighting and it don't help them any.So why should WC be any different?
You're actually saying that their previous training in a martial art doesn't help an MMA fighter in any way? What about skills they learned? Karo Parisyan's Judo skills didn't help his MMA? GSP's Karate background didn't help his MMA? They even still use those 'techniques' too!



The big question to me is not whether a MMA fighter can whip a good wing chun man, but can YOU whip a good wing chun man using your little MMA skills? MMA is fantasy fighting. Looks brutal, but it is just fantasy. Rules out the ears, and a ref that is right there to keep you from being beaten to death. If you are going to fight in the ring you will fight by the same rules as the other guy. You become all equal except for size and strength. Besides, I think I read a while back that a bunch of them got busted over steriod use. Any truth to that?

Imagine! A sport where you can pressure test all types of different ranges, attacks, defense, etc in a somewhat safe environment! Doesn't sound like fantasy to me. MMA is more than just bigger vs. smaller OR stronger vs. weaker. It's got the same things that other contact/pressure testing martial arts does: heart, cardio, sweat, blood, tears, skills, etc.

Lastly, wherever there is sport or competition, there will always be bad people trying to cheat the system. That doesn't discredit the sport - or any sport for that matter.

I've watched you post before and are dead set in your opinions. This post was mostly cathartic, so don't take offense. :p

All the best.

[Mr Punch]

Odder, don't worry, the fact that you practice something that at least in some ways resembles ground fighting means you'll have the advantage over probably 90% of the people you meet who haven't done wrestling, BJJ or judo.

If you really want to improve your getting up, your getting on top and your striking from any angle on the ground, you should probably train any kind of grappling or MMA.

BTW, I've trained with mantis people too, and their throwing skills are no comparison to your average judoka.

Lee, if you knew anything about the skill level of your average MMA practitioner you might have something interesting to say. I doubt it, mind.

[Mr Punch]

BTW LCP, I've watched you post before and please, feel free to take offence.

I believe a lot of what you say about having had a hard life, and lots of fights and seen lots of violence and blah blah blah. It still doesn't mean you know everything, or that you don't hold a lot of mis- and pre-conceptions. Even self-styled hard men can be full of it. However much you experience - you can always experience more.

[OdderMensch]

Odder, don't worry, the fact that you practice something that at least in some ways resembles ground fighting means you'll have the advantage over probably 90% of the people you meet who haven't done wrestling, BJJ or judo.

If you really want to improve your getting up, your getting on top and your striking from any angle on the ground, you should probably train any kind of grappling or MMA.

BTW, I've trained with mantis people too, and their throwing skills are no comparison to your average judoka.


lol than either I need to find a better class of judoka or you need to find a better class of mantis people :)

[OdderMensch]

If you really want to improve your getting up, your getting on top and your striking from any angle on the ground, you should probably train any kind of grappling or MMA.



So you are saying that my training time would be better spent with any random MMA or grappling gym than training in the style I hope to master?

I'm sorry I just don't see it.

A MMA fighter (short term training, young, big, confident) I've been talking to at work recently asked my what my defense or "what I would do about" a choke hold properly held with the hand in the crook of the elbow (he demonstrated in the air) I told him, "well grab me" and i gave him my back (not a commonly taught or sound tactical move I'll agree) :)

He grabbed me from a standing position and clamped down pretty hard. I quickly jammed my chin into his elbow, grabbed his arm with both hands and hugged it, then sank my weight, putting him enough off balance to drive him back into a wall.

He was still holding pretty hard, but I had bought myself some space to attack with the hand with the worst leverage on the grab and the better shot at 'vital targets' I opted for a hard fist to the front of his thigh.

He slacked of and started complain, i got free of the hold and listened to his argument.

I should note this is a defense you learn standing in your first month, and apply on the ground in your first year.

"well no if we were on the ground and I hand my hips like this and my feet wrapped around you........"

what he referenced as a rear naked choke.

He had told me already that his plan for such a hold was to relax, then when 'most guys' slacken the hold (presumably because you are going unconscious) you 'like bust out' and reverse the position in some way 'really quick'

Now, knowing that 'relax and hurt' is already a big part of my fighting training on the ground, how exactly is this better training?

I train hard not to get into a choke like that, and its of a handful of spots that we now have to tap out of, unless there are a few things wrong with the hold and we can get out of it.

I did offer for him to try and put me like that, we're discussing glove choice right now. He declined to fight immediately and bare knuckled :D

[Edmund]

So you are saying that my training time would be better spent with any random MMA or grappling gym than training in the style I hope to master?

I'm sorry I just don't see it.

A MMA fighter (short term training, young, big, confident) I've been talking to at work recently asked my what my defense or "what I would do about" a choke hold properly held with the hand in the crook of the elbow (he demonstrated in the air) I told him, "well grab me" and i gave him my back (not a commonly taught or sound tactical move I'll agree) :)

He grabbed me from a standing position and clamped down pretty hard. I quickly jammed my chin into his elbow, grabbed his arm with both hands and hugged it, then sank my weight, putting him enough off balance to drive him back into a wall.
..
..
..


OM,

I'm sorry but these are not the same as lessons in the fundamentals of groundfighting. FOR INSTANCE, you were standing up!!

How will you learn the fundamentals of groundfighting without actually taking lessons from someone who is teaching you?

You say you train on the ground already?
Then taking lessons on techniques and concepts from ground fighting experts is not a big step and would be quite familiar.

[Edmund]

You guys are embarrising. You argue over stuff you have no clues about. You are comparing everything to MMA fighters.

What the hell was the topic of the thread?

[Genetic]

Wing chun will have its day in MMA, but no-one will recognise it, they wont know what it looks like

[OdderMensch]

OM,

I'm sorry but these are not the same as lessons in the fundamentals of groundfighting. FOR INSTANCE, you were standing up!!

How will you learn the fundamentals of groundfighting without actually taking lessons from someone who is teaching you?

You say you train on the ground already?
Then taking lessons on techniques and concepts from ground fighting experts is not a big step and would be quite familiar.

My apologies for being both long winded and vague. The point of my post most relevant to the discussion at hand was his response to that lock (as applied on the ground) namely "wait until they relax then do something" does not strike me as much of a plan. but that was a MMA / Grappler tactic!

Again it was in response to the assertion that "any MMA/ Grappling school would be better than learning from my Sifu, who is a master of WC and the Di Tong that is a vital part of it.

(a quote from Grappler Beating Basics "I've taught ground fighting, I taught ground fighting when people laughed at me for doing so, in fact the biggest guy I've taken down, i took down grappling and held him until help arrived")

Now I imagine that more experienced ground fighters have much better escapes from that position, and If they exist I am certain my Sifu, who has studied and taught ground fighting for many years, knows them and will teach me.

[Edmund]

My apologies for being both long winded and vague. The point of my post most relevant to the discussion at hand was his response to that lock (as applied on the ground) namely "wait until they relax then do something" does not strike me as much of a plan. but that was a MMA / Grappler tactic!


"Wait until they relax"?
Not sure what your friend was trying to say there.



Again it was in response to the assertion that "any MMA/ Grappling school would be better than learning from my Sifu, who is a master of WC and the Di Tong that is a vital part of it.


I think you're misquoting that assertion. Your sifu was not mentioned. Mr Punch said if you wanted to improve your tactics of getting up and so forth, you should practice against grapplers at a grappling school. e.g. They would know a lot more about good hold downs and submissions that you could train against.




(a quote from Grappler Beating Basics "I've taught ground fighting, I taught ground fighting when people laughed at me for doing so, in fact the biggest guy I've taken down, i took down grappling and held him until help arrived")

Now I imagine that more experienced ground fighters have much better escapes from that position, and If they exist I am certain my Sifu, who has studied and taught ground fighting for many years, knows them and will teach me.

Not sure what "Grappler Beating Basics" is. A book?
Nevertheless it's not about who can beat who and fancier escapes. It's about the fundamental techniques/ideas and whether you get to practice them against competent grapplers.

[m1k3]

A MMA fighter (short term training, young, big, confident) I've been talking to at work recently asked my what my defense or "what I would do about" a choke hold properly held with the hand in the crook of the elbow (he demonstrated in the air) I told him, "well grab me" and i gave him my back (not a commonly taught or sound tactical move I'll agree) :)

He grabbed me from a standing position and clamped down pretty hard. I quickly jammed my chin into his elbow, grabbed his arm with both hands and hugged it, then sank my weight, putting him enough off balance to drive him back into a wall.

He was still holding pretty hard, but I had bought myself some space to attack with the hand with the worst leverage on the grab and the better shot at 'vital targets' I opted for a hard fist to the front of his thigh.

He slacked of and started complain, i got free of the hold and listened to his argument.

I should note this is a defense you learn standing in your first month, and apply on the ground in your first year.

"well no if we were on the ground and I hand my hips like this and my feet wrapped around you........"

what he referenced as a rear naked choke.

He had told me already that his plan for such a hold was to relax, then when 'most guys' slacken the hold (presumably because you are going unconscious) you 'like bust out' and reverse the position in some way 'really quick'

Now, knowing that 'relax and hurt' is already a big part of my fighting training on the ground, how exactly is this better training?

I train hard not to get into a choke like that, and its of a handful of spots that we now have to tap out of, unless there are a few things wrong with the hold and we can get out of it.

I did offer for him to try and put me like that, we're discussing glove choice right now. He declined to fight immediately and bare knuckled :D

I'm sorry, but your friend doesn't sound like he knows what he is talking about. Once someone has a rear naked choked locked in you have about 6 seconds, give or take a couple, to get lose before you go to sleep.

The best defense is to not let them get it locked in by controlling one of the arms, keeping the chin tucked in to protect the throat and to turn towards the choking arm in your attempt to escape. If they get the choke sunk in the best thing to do is tap, because the chances of you getting out of it are slim to none.

As for just relax and then bust out when they slacken the hold is really really stupid. As a BJJ player if I get you in a choke I hold it until you tap or go to sleep. Not tapping is a good way to get hurt when you are training.

Also, the clamped down pretty hard is another good sign he doesn't know what he is doing. When you have an RNC locked up all you do is squeeze your elbows together, it is not a power or strength move, it is a leverage move. The person on the receiving end should not be feeling a lot of pressure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Also, the clamped down pretty hard is another good sign he doesn't know what he is doing. When you have an RNC locked up all you do is squeeze your elbows together, it is not a power or strength move, it is a leverage move. The person on the receiving end should not be feeling a lot of pressure.

Correct, a sure sign of lack of experience and skill in grappling is submission moves that are "powerfully done".

[punchdrunk]

actually I can't beleive how many people don't know how to rnc, most people just push down and pull up as hard as they can to choke someones wind pipe... which would take minutes to put someone out of action and is more likely to cause permanent damage. A proper rnc literally chokes you out in seconds and relies on stopping bloodflow not stopping breathing!! Squeezing the sides of the neck as opposed to the front and back. AT least in my experience that is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually I can't beleive how many people don't know how to rnc, most people just push down and pull up as hard as they can to choke someones wind pipe... which would take minutes to put someone out of action and is more likely to cause permanent damage. A proper rnc literally chokes you out in seconds and relies on stopping bloodflow not stopping breathing!! Squeezing the sides of the neck as opposed to the front and back. AT least in my experience that is.

Some people confuse the "blood" choke with an "air" choke, well, probably most people do that.
Even what constitutes a strangle and choke is "debated", but I was originally taught that a strangle is cutting off the blood to the brain and a choke was cutting off the air.
Look at some of those old time defense VS a RNC, they told you to turn your chin into the crook of the choking arm, those exposing the sides of your neck to the actual pressure, in effect giving up the "air choke" to a "blood choke".
It had its merits, certainly air chokes are more dangerous than blood chokes because of the potential damage to the wind pipe, but blood chokes will take you out quicker.

[m1k3]

I think a big thing with the RNC is if your opponent is feeling pain you are doing it wrong. With a blood choke the worst you should feel is mild discomfort.

Thats part of what makes them so efficient. If your opponent is not a grappler he doesn't even realize he's in danger.:eek:

[OdderMensch]

"Wait until they relax"?
Not sure what your friend was trying to say there.

M1k3 figured out what I was trying to say.




I think you're misquoting that assertion. Your sifu was not mentioned. Mr Punch said if you wanted to improve your tactics of getting up and so forth, you should practice against grapplers at a grappling school. e.g. They would know a lot more about good hold downs and submissions that you could train against.


I was up a bit late responding :)

No my Sifu was never mentioned, just that I was delusional for believing that my WC Sifu could teach me how to use my WC to defeat grapplers (via Di Tong) instead of learning Grappling. Learning from grapplers is a fine thing, sparring against them is good to, but what I have learned so far 'closely resembles' proper ground fighting and thats just my one page quick synopsis, not a detailed analysis of my entire ground fighting system.




Not sure what "Grappler Beating Basics" is. A book?


Video, been out a while, might go into circulation again soon!

[Edmund]

No my Sifu was never mentioned, just that I was delusional for believing that my WC Sifu could teach me how to use my WC to defeat grapplers (via Di Tong) instead of learning Grappling. Learning from grapplers is a fine thing, sparring against them is good to, but what I have learned so far 'closely resembles' proper ground fighting and thats just my one page quick synopsis, not a detailed analysis of my entire ground fighting system.



How often to you practice your techniques and spar with your sifu as your partner?

[couch]

Wing chun will have its day in MMA, but no-one will recognise it, they wont know what it looks like

That's because you can't fight with patty-cake. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

Has anyone seen someone trained in Wing Chun compete in Mixed Martial Arts? I was wondering how a Wing Chun practitioner will do against other fighting arts in a sports setting as well real life.

Some guy named lavecki (sp.?)competed in MMA. Wing Chun will not be successful in MMA (as a rule) as long as WC stylists have their heads in the clouds, and believe in magic. I saw a seminar post talking about revealing the secrets of joint power... LOL. In addition WC instructors need be more willing to update their material. Master Wong and Sifu Redmond have done a pretty good job of updating their material; However, it is not quite fully modernized.

The training methods of WC need to be updated as well. If you watch a number of WC schools train, they do one thing in training, but they fight differently in practice. The training and fighting should be a closer match.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

from my experiences most chokes from beginners aren't really chokes at all. They are more like cranks. Most people tapout from the pain before they go to sleep. Even in organizations like UFC you see most fighters tap before they pass out thats pain on the cervical vertibre not lack of blood flow. Guo Lo (?spelling) is designed for combat right? Alan Orr's guys are fighting and winning in the cage less we forget?

[monji112000]

Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL_qJz8VsXI

in all fairness to Steve it was clear he wasn't prepared. If you ask the people who were there they say the same thing. He clearly did EVERYTHING WRONG on the ground. If he had a little bit a ground skill he could have stood the fight back up quickly from side control...
at least he had the balls to step up .. more so on such short notice. Funny thing is they both went to jail for that fight. MMA was illegal in Canada at the time. Go figure. Put a Olympic Judoka on the Cage with no striking and no BJJ.. and you get the same result 9/10 times. its a formula you have to follow. Striking + clinching+ ground game. Your clinching and ground game don't have to be world class grappling. You can easily just have a simple get back to my comfort zone. If you train that Hard you can go very far in MMA. Just look at all the one dimensional fights in MMA today. Sure they lose to better people.. but the UFC/WEC both have allot of ONE style fights who just know enough in other areas.

*as a note Steve is a VERY good Striker who cross trains with many other style fighters. IE THAI FIGHTERS. He is a no nonsense fighter, who has trained people who have fought in Thailand and China (sanda). Nobody that ever competed for anything more than a few fights though. It would have been a much better match if he was more distance oriented and prepared for a the fight.