Trapping From The Ground

[air]

We recently started adding videos of how we train and learn.

Take a look and tell us what you think!

http://www.entertaichi.com/videos/id_25/title_Kung-Fu-Trapping-Hands-Ground-Control/

[m1k3]

I realize this was a demonstration but something I saw. The person doing the trapping, inside the person on his backs guard is making a serious mistake with the positioning of his legs and feet. He is kneeling on one knee, has the other foot planted on the next to the belt of the person on his back. (0:47)

All the person on his back needs to do is put his hand/arm under the upright knee, the one near his belt, of the kneeling person and he can sweep him to the opposite side and end up on top in full mount. As I watched further the person on top actually pushed the person on the bottoms knee into the sweep position (1:35) almost guaranteeing that he will be swept to his back.

At 0:52 of the clip he places his left elbow inside the knee of the person pulling guard. He is setting himself up for a triangle choke by allowing the person with guard clear access to swing his leg around the demonstrators head.

My opinion is that neither of the people on this video had any submission grappling experience.

[taai gihk yahn]

agree w/M1K3: the guy in the guard is begging to be swept, and is also predicating his "strategy" on responses that a trained grappler would not do; for example, if he tuned a trained grappler onto their side that way, the escape he thinks that he's blocking (that is, turning directly back the way he came) is not the escape that the grappler would even look to do;

also, he has no clue at all about where the sciatic nerve is - which is why people who don't know spit about anatomy shouldn't try to use it to look more knowledgeable than they are...

[Violent Designs]

There are specific principles of groundfighting, that both of them are not following. By not using proper positioning and principles, against a trained submission grappler they will be submitted in no time.

[Hendrik]

There are specific principles of groundfighting, that both of them are not following. By not using proper positioning and principles, against a trained submission grappler they will be submitted in no time.



and Where can one find those specific principles?


Thanks

[couch]

Agreed with all.

Plus, realizing that it's a demo, the person on their back is trying to hit the other guy. Some stuff you just can't pull off in real time because you're getting your head bashed in.

And the sciatic nerve comment was hilarious. As an acupunk, I treat sciatica a lot in my clinic. It's nowhere near the inside thigh. It has two common pathways: GB and UB. These are the side of the leg and back of the leg, respectively.

[taai gihk yahn]

And the sciatic nerve comment was hilarious. As an acupunk, I treat sciatica a lot in my clinic. It's nowhere near the inside thigh.
yeah, I had to do a double "oh no he didn't" take: I mean, all my patients who have sciatica have a better idea of where the so-called "sciatic" nerve is - that was just strange (he's basically aiming for what looks like femoral neurovascular cluster, which is definitely a sensitive area);
what's funnier is that on the site's homepage they state:

Our Basic Teachings Lie In 3 Points Of Focus:

The laws of nature, the anatomy of the human body, and the principles of physics.
It is through these 3 laws that we learn to how energy is moved, its strengths and
limitations through the body and how to control the force behind it.

In other words, if we can’t prove it through science, we don’t teach the techniques.

oh well, so much or that...

It has two common pathways: GB and UB. These are the side of the leg and back of the leg, respectively.
the GB tract would be more like priformis / ITB syndrome versus sciatica in terms of "western" dx.; although to be honest, the whole sciatic / ITB thing is really just naming the pain based on location - got nothing to do with what causes it (which can be anything from the foot, to the pelvic floor, to the cranial base, to the guts, as that area is kind of a garbage can zone, esp. w/piriformis - basically Jumping ROund / GB20 - getting unhappy for almost any reason); I'm sure you have seen lots of people having gotten nowhere w/the standard silly PT treatments as well...

[Knifefighter]

and Where can one find those specific principles?


Thanks

The same way you would learn them in anything else. Train in groundfighting.

Just don't learn them from the guy teaching in that video, as he is completely clueless on the ground... the other clips are equally as ludicrous. He is giving his opponent sweeps, escapes and submissions all over the place. Neither one of those guys has a clue about what to do on the ground.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you try to extrapolate standing principles onto the ground.

[Hendrik]

The same way you would learn them in anything else. Train in groundfighting.

Just don't learn them from the guy teaching in that video, as he is completely clueless on the ground... the other clips are equally as ludicrous. He is giving his opponent sweeps, escapes and submissions all over the place. Neither one of those guys has a clue about what to do on the ground.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you try to extrapolate standing principles onto the ground.



Good advise, Thanks!

[Yoshiyahu]

What does Wing Chun Kuen Kuit say about Ground fighting?

[Hendrik]

What does Wing Chun Kuen Kuit say about Ground fighting?



IT said,

SHUT UP and learn from the Ground Fighter if you intent to know the art of Ground.

[taai gihk yahn]

What does Wing Chun Kuen Kuit say about Ground fighting?

probably something akin to
"avoid it like a horse with missing teeth" or some such...



Just don't learn them from the guy teaching in that video, as he is completely clueless on the ground... the other clips are equally as ludicrous. He is giving his opponent sweeps, escapes and submissions all over the place. Neither one of those guys has a clue about what to do on the ground.
This is a perfect example of what happens when you try to extrapolate standing principles onto the ground.

just to underscore this: I have minimal ground experience, only 8 mos. into BJJ, and prior to studying it, I would have looked at that clip and been like "well, ok, it seems reasonable"; at this point, it amazes me that, even as a total newb, I can see as many mistakes based on assumptions that this guy is making by trying to, as KF points out, inappropriately applying stand-up concepts to ground fighting

[AdrianK]

What does Wing Chun Kuen Kuit say about Ground fighting?

Wing Chun Kuen Kuit says:
Don't go to the ground

Go to the ground but use Wing Chun principles only

Go to the ground but use Wing Chun principles mostly

Go to the ground if necessary but learn how to ground fight from a legitimate source :eek:

That the statistics that lots of fights go to the ground are actually reversed and 94% of fights go to the standup

That you don't need the ground anymore because Strikers in UFC have successfully thwarted ground fighters

That the Ground does not exist, the matrix has you.


Depending on who you talk to. We've got over two dozen lineages and thousands of teachers who all believe different things... and lets not get the JKD Wing Chun spin-offs into the mix..

[Mr Punch]

We recently started adding videos of how we train and learn.

Take a look and tell us what you think!

http://www.entertaichi.com/videos/id_25/title_Kung-Fu-Trapping-Hands-Ground-Control/My eyes! My eyes!

The instructor's arse is in the air. The whole time. Not only is that not basic grappling principles of basing out but it's also ignoring basic CMA principles of sinking. A brutal sweep followed by merciless GnP should follow. Of the six 'instructional' vids that are actually your school's er... let me see... ALL of them are 'groundfighting'! Something to prove? All you've proved is that one of you at least should go and learn some grappling. Six months should put you in the vicinity of the right planet.

[lkfmdc]

that was, uh, pathetic......

[anerlich]

That stuff would work great if the guy on the bottom just lay there like an inanimate blob. Otherwise, no.

The guy on top would have had his leg underhooked and then been swept to his right at about 0:50, before he got to do any of his stuff, or triangled very shortly thereafter by anyone with about 6 months of BJJ. That's assuming the guy on the bottom just hugged him like that for 0:50 without doing anything productive.

No posture in the guard, giving him the flower sweep, no concept of using hooks in back control, etc. etc. etc.

Why don't these guys drop their egos and go take some groundfighting lessons in a proven system instead of trying to work it out for themselves and coming up with this?

[anerlich]

and Where can one find those specific principles?


Thanks

Can't be done on the internet. Ask your Sifu.

[AdrianK]

No! Given what Hendrik's posts are like usually, his sifu is going to give some vague bull**** like "when ground is gone to, must use inner knowledge, no training required", and then Hendrik will then come to the forum and champion that retarded opinion across every ground fighting post :(

[Violent Designs]

and Where can one find those specific principles?


Thanks

In a BJJ, Sambo, or general submission wrestling class.

[Violent Designs]

No! Given what Hendrik's posts are like usually, his sifu is going to give some vague bull**** like "when ground is gone to, must use inner knowledge, no training required", and then Hendrik will then come to the forum and champion that retarded opinion across every ground fighting post :(

Hendrik asks others questions, and when others ask him the exact same ****ing thing, he will ignore the question or divert it, or just simply state he has no clue what he, you, or anyone else is talking about, and you need to go train more.

It works all the time too, telling others to train more and stop asking questions and that the answers cannot be answered in words, while HE asks more questions. Stop putting yourself on a mother****ing pedestal, Hendrik.

[Hendrik]

hahaha,

these answer shows your true color isnt it?

human

[Violent Designs]

hahaha,

these answer shows your true color isnt it?

human

I never hid my true colors 。。。

I never pretended to like you. I have always been very open regarding my dislike of you and how much I think you're either too stupid or crazy to have a rational conversation with。

[couch]

I'm sure you have seen lots of people having gotten nowhere w/the standard silly PT treatments as well...

I know of a couple of really good PT's, but for the most part I think it's all a 'catch-bag of tricks.' Spending too much time in school and not in the real world. LOL

Oh no. Gonna get me on a rant. I'll quit now! LOL

[taai gihk yahn]

it's about as ridiculous as this one that was posted here a while back;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTxDEa92B8


between these two vids, I notice the common themes as being:

1) the "instructor" smugly demonstrating how helpless his opponent is, and that he can completely shut him down / dominate no matter what (interestingly enough, in the BJJ classes I've taken, it's always like, "do 'x', but be aware that opponent can do 'y' to counter you effectively"; as if those neanderthal grapplers, having never seen / felt taiji, will suddenly become confused and inept...

2) the students laughing along, and with their insecurities about ground fighting having been assuage by the assurance of the "instructor", are like "oh, now that we've been shown how to deal w/those BJJ guys, we can relax and forget about them";

the funny thing is that, all of the "real", "authentic" Chinese sifu I've studied with, would be the first to realize the value of skilled grappling, and instead of trying to "wing it", would just be like, "that's good, go study that stuff, because we don't do it"

[couch]

Why don't these guys drop their egos and go take some groundfighting lessons in a proven system instead of trying to work it out for themselves and coming up with this?

True that. Even buy the video! LOL

[taai gihk yahn]

I know of a couple of really good PT's, but for the most part I think it's all a 'catch-bag of tricks.'
yes, I have met / studied with a couple of really good PT's as well - unfortunately, they are in the vast minority...the "bag of tricks" (heat, cold, stim, US, massage" is going to work on that percentage of the population that would get results w/just about anyone;


Spending too much time in school and not in the real world. LOL
unfortunately, the "real world" of PT means 10 - 15 min. hands-on treatment in the typical OP clinic;
another population - DO's - supposedly the manual therapy they learn is "holistic"; so my wife is teaching some manual to DO residents at the hospital where she's an OB/GYN attending (she's an MD, but has a French DO degree - far more comprehensive than in the US vis-a-vis the manual stuff); the first question she asked was what they do if someone comes in w/complaints of neck pain; to a person, they all went and just started treating the site of the pain - no comprehensive eval, no notion of looking anywhere other than the site of complaints; scary...


Oh no. Gonna get me on a rant. I'll quit now! LOL
yeah, don't get me started either, LOL...:rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

it's about as ridiculous as this one that was posted here a while back;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTxDEa92B8Tai chi fruities meet aikido fruities on the ground...?! :eek: :eek: :eek: THE HORROR!!! My eyes my eyes!!!

[Wayfaring]

My eyes! My eyes!

The instructor's arse is in the air. The whole time.

So true. I can hear a grappling coach's voice in my head saying "nothing says sweep me like an @ss in the air"....

[Wayfaring]

No posture in the guard, giving him the flower sweep, no concept of using hooks in back control, etc. etc. etc.


Hands on the ground trying to posture up exposing the kimura. One foot step up with no balance and not pinning the same side hand. No connection of elbows and knees. Not angling hip away for posture for breaking closed guard.

But you do have entertaining running commentary... "Foom foom fa foom foom..."
"I just disabled his right side" "Step up to get balance (while having no balance such that a 12 yr old girl from kids BJJ could sweep him)" and "He just lies there like a snake being choked".

Is it any wonder that these types of people having no clue on the ground and trying to "apply principles" on the ground make themselves the laughingstock of the martial arts world posting up videos of themselves?