Kenpo

[Raipizo]

whats the difference between Kung fu and Kenpo? A little confused i was thinking that kenpo is like karate mixed with kung fu am i correct?

[David Jamieson]

whats the difference between Kung fu and Kenpo? A little confused i was thinking that kenpo is like karate mixed with kung fu am i correct?

It's pronounced Kempo although written kenpo (go figure). Kempo is a few things.

one is that it is mixed interpretation of Chinese martial arts. the japanse versions being the best really.

another one is that it is the mixed knowledge coagulated into american martial arts as distributed by Ed Parker, hence "kempo karate"

later iterations are variations of those two things, but yeah it is a mix of karate and kungfu more often than not. unless you are in Japan, where it is what it is.

It would seem taht every different school of Kempo has an entirely different curriculum from which they teach and learn martial arts.

like anything, some schools are good and others not so much.

[Raipizo]

thanks for the help yeah i see it written as kenpo all the time i figured it was right but would kempo kung fu kind of be ruined due to the complete opposites in technique of karate and kung fu? i kinda think it would.

[David Jamieson]

thanks for the help yeah i see it written as kenpo all the time i figured it was right but would kempo kung fu kind of be ruined due to the complete opposites in technique of karate and kung fu? i kinda think it would.

punch, kick, lock and throw.

that's all there really is, the dancing in between is transitional.

If it's hard to understand, it ain't likely to be useful in combat anyway. :-)

[golden arhat]

since when is karate "opposed" to kung fu (the umbrella term for hundreds of very different arts)

????

[Raipizo]

Well karate is slower and more rigid where as kung fu is flowy and fast.

[Eddie]

since when is karate "opposed" to kung fu (the umbrella term for hundreds of very different arts)

????

Kung fu usually specifically refers to the Martial Arts style that comes from China. Its not really the umbrella name for all styles of martial arts either, perhaps you are thinking of the term wushu.

CMA and Karate does have many similarities, but are also very different in many ways.

[Raipizo]

I agree with you.

[TenTigers]

Well karate is slower and more rigid where as kung fu is flowy and fast.
nonesnse. Good, authentic, Karate is fast and fluid.

[Mr Punch]

... one is that it is mixed interpretation of Chinese martial arts. the japanse versions being the best really.

another one is that it is the mixed knowledge coagulated into american martial arts as distributed by Ed Parker, hence "kempo karate"

later iterations are variations of those two things, but yeah it is a mix of karate and kungfu more often than not. unless you are in Japan, where it is what it is.Kind of. There are lots of different kempo styles. There's American kempo, which has a lot in it, most of which is from Ed Parker. Within Japanese kempo, the two main styles are both called Shorinji Kempo. One of these is Okinawan which is pretty cool and as old as most other Okinawan karate (110-120 or so) and the other is modern mainland Japanese karate, and the name was chosen literally because the founder thought it sounded cool, and has nothing but a fleeting relation to kung fu.

I know you said Japanese kempo is what it is, but just to clarify, neither shorinji kempo is a mix of karate and kung fu: Okinawan is an Okinawan karate style, which like any other Okinawan karate means it’s a mix of traditional Okinawan fighting techniques with elements of kung fu thrown in… that’s what karate is; and mainland shorinji is made-up karate with no relation to kung fu.

[Mr Punch]

Well karate is slower and more rigid where as kung fu is flowy and fast.You should try learning one. Or both. These statements are ludicrously mistaken over-generalizations.

[Yao Sing]

High level Karate looks pretty much like Kung Fu. It's all the same, different roads to one location.

[Raipizo]

bah idk, i just like kung fu better XD

[Mr Punch]

bah idk, i just like kung fu better XDLOL, fair enough!

[TenTigers]

why didn't ya just say so in the first place?!
Sure. The main difference between Kung-Fu and Karate is,

Kung-Fu is cooler!:cool:
-we all know that.

[golden arhat]

point is if someone says to me they do "kung fu" i have no idea what they do
because all styles of kung fu are very different.
if you cant see similarities between chinese martial arts and karate you are blind!

[David Jamieson]

Kind of. There are lots of different kempo styles. There's American kempo, which has a lot in it, most of which is from Ed Parker. Within Japanese kempo, the two main styles are both called Shorinji Kempo. One of these is Okinawan which is pretty cool and as old as most other Okinawan karate (110-120 or so) and the other is modern mainland Japanese karate, and the name was chosen literally because the founder thought it sounded cool, and has nothing but a fleeting relation to kung fu.

I know you said Japanese kempo is what it is, but just to clarify, neither shorinji kempo is a mix of karate and kung fu: Okinawan is an Okinawan karate style, which like any other Okinawan karate means it’s a mix of traditional Okinawan fighting techniques with elements of kung fu thrown in… that’s what karate is; and mainland shorinji is made-up karate with no relation to kung fu.


shorin ji, there are 2 kinds (one is quite recent and also quite culty), but "shorin" transliterates as "shaolin" so it is indeed realted directly to cma. other okinawan styles have been tied to fujien white crane style and when observed, the direct connection is there. mainland karate is an entirely different animal altogether and pretty much exclusively japanese in style and content.

goju is similar to the white crane, shorin is the shaolin japanese style, isshin is a mix of those too with a en extra kata of it's own, uechi is a hard style that shares some content with shorin and goju as well. The other okinawan families stem from these to the best of my knowledge and so, teh Okinawan karate is very much related to chinese martial styles.

also 'kempo' is basically the same as 'chuan fa' or 'fist law' or 'fist methods'.

[golden arhat]

isnt the japanese for "fist" "ken"

as in

hakkyoku-ken (bajiquan)

[David Jamieson]

isnt the japanese for "fist" "ken"

as in

hakkyoku-ken (bajiquan)

kenpo pronounced kempo.

i go with the phonetic pronunciation as it is the most common usage.

:)

[Pork Chop]

When it comes to Okinawan styles, just want to make sure that there's an Okinawan Shorinji (少林寺) and an Okinawan Shorin-Ryu (少林流).
My buddy was pretty adamant that his stuff wasn't really Shaolin-based.
http://www.rik.co.jp/karate/english/dojyo.htm

In Japanese there's not really a difference between a terminating "n" and a terminating "m" - terminating meaning not immediately followed by a vowel, ie the character ん; this is especially true when the ん is followed by a "p" or "b" sound.
Proper romanization; however, is with the "n".

[Lucas]

ken can mean A LOT of things. Commonly knife or sword in regards to martial arts.


kendo for instance

lookie see (http://www.freedict.com/onldict/jap.html)

[sean_stonehart]

nonesnse. Good, authentic, Karate is fast and fluid.

Ditto ... what he said!!!

[Raipizo]

Lol well idk, karate seems a much more rigid brute force style more so than kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

Lol well idk, karate seems a much more rigid brute force style more so than kung fu.

at the beginning levels, everybody in every art sucks and is rigid and lame looking.

fact of life, you can't know until you know. :)

[Lucas]

at the beginning levels, everybody in every art sucks and is rigid and lame looking.

fact of life, you can't know until you know. :)

true that.

also a lot of people form a basis between karate and kungfu based on forms/kata

often a pretty different method between your standard cma and jma technique sequences.

watch a good cma guy fight and a good jma guy fight. pretty much the same thing.

[Lokhopkuen]

Well karate is slower and more rigid where as kung fu is flowy and fast.

Karate done correctly (not Americanized) is fluid as is TCMA. Any martial art must be fluidly adaptive IMHO.

k

[Raipizo]

well i haven't seen foreign karate, kinda hard when you live IN AMERICA XD

[Wood Dragon]

Karate kata are misleading, as 90% of practitioners perform them at the dreaded "competition pace", where the flow is artificially slowed so that the judges can clearly see the techniques (and the biomechanics). The techniques may be very fast, but they are performed at an interrupted pace (technique....pause......technique).

JKA (Shotokan) started doing that, by accident (folks who did it won more competitions, as the judges could see their techniques more clearly, and natural selection took over).

This isn't how they are meant to be performed. They are supposed to be a form of shadowboxing.

Judge Karate more by the kihon (techniques) than the kata. Kumite is also a good indicator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5AvCcLwaJQ&feature=related

At the end of the day, given Karate's roots (White Crane, etc), it's just not going to look like taijiquan.

[Wood Dragon]

There is a movement afoot in the Karate world to get back to the "roots" (although that is sloppy terminology) of the first couple of generations of the karatekas, who were not exactly strangers to martial arts when they walked into the Shotokan (lots of Judo and Kendo practitioners).

The concept is that Funakoshi's (and Miyagi's) bootleg Kano-esque training syllabus was not responsible for the "legendary" karatekas like Nakayama or Oyama. Rather, it was layered over their already formidable Judo (or Wrestling, Boxing, Jujutsu, etc) skillsets. Which may partially explain the dearth of "x-ryu only" persons with legitimate fighting skills. As well as the success of the Kyokushin concept (Karate as a base of reference, with techniques stolen from Judo and MT to fill the weak areas).

So: looking at, say, Shotokan*...you may only be seeing 50% of what the original practitioners actually knew.


*- Shotokan has changed a lot since Funakoshi. Nakayama, a Kendo champion, was Chief Instructor for 30 years. Who do you think had more influence on the current product? Modern Shotokan includes Kendo concepts Funakoshi never heard of.

[Pork Chop]

While we're on the subject of karate, I'd like to add this:
part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb6BbwKiPHQ), part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4NcTQWX7Rc), and especially part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhYwwkIFEcI).
Because every ma forum needs at least a little bit of Andy Hug on it.
Man, him and Bernie Mack - 2 guys I never met & never would've but genuinely miss.
Bet he's in heaven right now fighting in a tourney with Bruce Lee, Jigoro Kano, & Mas Oyama.
ossu

[golden arhat]

theyre in for a shock in about 30 years

[Raipizo]

What kind of shock?

[golden arhat]

wait no make it about 50
when bas rutten and fedor turn up and collectively own everyone

[Lucas]

wait no make it about 50
when bas rutten and fedor turn up and collectively own everyone

i'd just like to watch em fight each other.

[wetwonder]

My daughter's been learning Kenpo for six months, and I've sat in on almost every class, and I would say that it's very similar to some styles of kung fu. Exception being that stances are higher. Emphasis is on direct self-defense based on patterns of attack situations. More emphasis on kicks than some kung fu. Fitness is gained through exercises, rather than low stance forms and sets of 2 pound rings. The forms themselves are done quickly, focusing more on technique than developing strength and stamina.

So in short, my take is that Kenpo is designed for quick, disabling bursts of self defense moves. After, for example, six months of Kenpo vs. 6 months of kung fu, the kenpo practioner will know more techniques, while the kung fu practicioner will be have more strength and stamina to build techniques from.

[Pork Chop]

wait no make it about 50
when bas rutten and fedor turn up and collectively own everyone

lol
i'll give yah fedor, but bas, as cool as he is, couldn't hold hug's jockstrap.

[golden arhat]

lol
i'll give yah fedor, but bas, as cool as he is, couldn't hold hug's jockstrap.

say that to one of bas's groin kicks

[Raipizo]

i see, btw those are mma guys aren't they, i hate mma.

[Wood Dragon]

i see, btw those are mma guys aren't they, i hate mma.

"Your Kung Fu is no match for my Speedo!"

[David Jamieson]

"Your Kung Fu is no match for my Speedo!"

your speedo is no match for my nudity

:p

[Raipizo]

Your nudity is no match for my muscle layer XD

[golden arhat]

i see, btw those are mma guys aren't they, i hate mma.

why doesnt that surprise me

[golden arhat]

Your nudity is no match for my muscle layer XD

killed it :/

oh well

[Lokhopkuen]

well i haven't seen foreign karate, kinda hard when you live IN AMERICA XD

youtube......

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSmqA72pK_8&feature=related

kenpo mma

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr_gE1KWUf8hackney is a great streetfighter he took the fit wrestler off him then tore his throat out with a tiger claw KENPO ROCKS...

[diego]

http://www.hackneyscombat.com/instructors.html

dude Hackney threw out the tiger claw now he strictly mma, say it ain't so....NOOOOOOO:D

"
Posts: 152
Joined: Mar. 4th, 2007,
From: Chicago Area, Illinois
Status: offline Kenpo system founded by Tom Saviano, based off of John McSweeney's Kenpo. Incorportates aspects of Goju Shorie Karate, Kang Chwan Do Kung Fu, Boxing, Brazilian Juijitsu, and wrestling. The system name originally started out as a school name that began in 1982. Over the years, the name became a label to the system being taught. An off shoot of Parker's Kenpo from the early 1960's.

History of System Evolution

When Tom Saviano began with John McSweeney in 1980, he had already been a practitioner of the martial arts since 1964. John McSweeney's Kenpo, at that time, had been paired down to 24 base techniques with variations being taught to his students. Also a part of the McSweeney's system was unarmed defense against knife, club, and handgun. You also where required to learn armed defense; yawara, knife, club and hand gun (point shooting).

Forms

John McSweeney had removed all forms as he felt the old forms no longer fit within his new system of Kenpo. It was Tom Saviano who re-introduced forms into the system. He took the original 24 and modified them into the form. Originally his black belt thesis form, it was then seperated into 3 forms and added to McSweeney's Kenpo.

Other Styles Added When Tom Saviano started his school, besided the original 24 techniques, he also taught his students modified aspects of Goju Shorie and Kang Chwan Do Kung Fu. As the years moved along, aspects of other systems where added.

During the early UFC craze, grappling had been slowly incorporated. Borrowing from Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and western style wrestling. It was during that time that the White Tiger Kenpo received more national and international exposure through Keith Hackney, when he fought the largest fighter to enter the UFC. The first strike used that was mislabeled as a "wild right", was actually a common strike in the system. Modified for the great height disparity, the strike is actually called a Tiger Strike. A modified strike from the Crane style of Kung Fu originally a part of John McSweeney's system.

Changes to Techniques

It was around the year 1998, that the techniques of the system went through some changes and additions. It was one of Tom Saviano's black belts, Zoran Sevic, that first came to him about the fact that the system had changed beyond what was written into the curriculum. After which, the techniques went to 28 base techniques. Many of the original techniques were modified and some were removed as well. Over the years, through Tom Saviano and input from many of his black belts, the number increased to 30. All of which was accepted by his instructor, John McSweeney. "

[Raipizo]

God i hate mma with a passion XD and i don't rummage through youtube mainly because most of the posted videos on martial arts there noone knows what style they are so i gave up on that.

[golden arhat]

God i hate mma with a passion XD and i don't rummage through youtube mainly because most of the posted videos on martial arts there noone knows what style they are so i gave up on that.

why because they are excellent fighters who actively move martial arts forward and are incredible athletes?
do you hate that theyre probably better fighters than you
and regardless of what style you train in you'l never be half the fighter they will?

does that bother you?

so your saying you havent done alot of research and havent seen alot then?

man ahah i dont know why i bother i suppose you'l overcome your very immature view that MMA sucks once one day when you get your ass handed to you by someone who trains it.
how old are you i remember saying stuff like "karate is rigid kung fu is fluid" when i was about 12


silly silly person

[Raipizo]

Oh yes definately THE BEST athletes ever! psh XD

[Pork Chop]

Since when does everybody HAVE to be a mma fan?

[Raipizo]

No i do not like them because they don't bother to learn anything street practical yet alot of schools try to make it seem like it is. It also seems that they just take moves from certain styles without even halfway practicing that style of martial art. The Mixed martial arts that Bruce Lee created was much better than what is shown all ove the tv now a days. The sport of beating each other in a cage sounds like the more immature thing to me really. I just don't like it i'm not allowed to have my opinions?

[Raipizo]

Pork Chop what do you mean by that on my side, or his XD

[Raipizo]

Now i'm not trying to put jujitsu hell i like jujitsu and judo, just saying that those people fighting on tv are not really learning a true style of martial art. Martial arts were made for defense not for sport =]. Now sure you know martial arts and everything but you don't have to go bashing peoples skulls in lol. Also i was wrong earlier noone can really be the Best athlete just depends what your doing for strength yeah MMA workout has alot of it. But speed agility a kung fu workout is more likely suited to this. Therefore this argument, i say, Truce XD.

[Pork Chop]

Pork Chop what do you mean by that on my side, or his XD

I don't really like mma, especially now that Pride's gone.
I respect it, but I'm not a huge fan.
There was an actual muay thai circuit here in Texas prior to mma getting huge.
There were a lot more san shou events before the first episode of TUF than now too.
Can anybody even remember the last time K-1 in the States made any news?

I train with mma guys, and way too many of them are "a little bit of this, a little bit of that".
There was all-in fighting well before it was called mma, and there will be all-in fighting long after this current fad dies down (I don't think mma is a fad, I think it's current level of popularity is fad-ish).
I don't think they've given back all that much to martial arts, I know for myself there are d@mn few opportunities to compete as a direct result of the mma explosion.

[Kansuke]

Martial arts were made for defense not for sport =].

Or both, among other things.

[Wood Dragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWFjvnFCivg

A very good rendition of one of the basic Shotokan katas. It's linear, but no more than, say, some of the Hung Gar forms (that I have seen)...

[golden arhat]

No i do not like them because they don't bother to learn anything street practical.

okay yeah nothing practical:rolleyes:

where the hell do these people come from?! :rolleyes: jesus christ

i've defended myself many many times with my mixed martial arts

and they are actually brilliant athletes
they practise 5-6 hours every day and get each technique down perfect

seriously go and take an MMA class and then say the same thing because its blatantly obvious you know nothing about martial arts

[golden arhat]

Now i'm not trying to put jujitsu hell i like jujitsu and judo, just saying that those people fighting on tv are not really learning a true style of martial art. Martial arts were made for defense not for sport =]. Now sure you know martial arts and everything but you don't have to go bashing peoples skulls in lol. Also i was wrong earlier noone can really be the Best athlete just depends what your doing for strength yeah MMA workout has alot of it. But speed agility a kung fu workout is more likely suited to this. Therefore this argument, i say, Truce XD.

not a true style? ahah you realise all martial arts are mixtures of all other martial arts???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3M4VacJ4NU
watch all of that and tell me theres no agility involved in mma


sorry if it doesnt look enough like a shaw brothers movie for you

[TenTigers]

we used to spar with the rule,"If it goes to the ground, finish it on the ground" long before I've ever seen UFC and MMA. This is the way my friends and I sparred, and I continued it with my students, only now we're doing it with better technique and proper training methods. It only raises the bar and your awareness.

[Raipizo]

Well i wouldn't say finish on the ground exactly.. maybe if you know ground fighting very well, else i would say that you should try to get up as much as possible. And not all martial arts are mixtures of others how do you think martial arts began? Those arts long ago were just formed for self defense when weapons weren't really an option in China that is what i heard, i don't know about Japan

[Raipizo]

Well I agree Ten it is good to know ground fighting but don't always rely on it because if your facing multiple enemies on the ground it's not very hard for them to beat you there and one could grab a rock bottle or something else to pummel you with. My advice learn to fight standing up, and on the ground.

[Raipizo]

Well you live in the UK, not sure if you see the same UFC stuff that's on our tv screens.

[Raipizo]

But you have to admit when did MMA become most popular? When UFC started to show now ok if your learning it so you can fight in UFC it's most likely not street practical due to the violations of techniques, they wouldn't bother to teach you because it would be no use anyway, But if its not strictly for mma and you are learning street no rules fighting i could see that being more street ready :].

[golden arhat]

Well i wouldn't say finish on the ground exactly.. maybe if you know ground fighting very well, else i would say that you should try to get up as much as possible. And not all martial arts are mixtures of others how do you think martial arts began? Those arts long ago were just formed for self defense when weapons weren't really an option in China that is what i heard, i don't know about Japan

you heard wrong

people have been fighting since the dawn of time
people mixed various techniques they saw
made that a style
saw anotehr style
madea new style
its all just names!

mixed martial arts means taking the best from everywhere and unless you have really gone and tried wrestling and gropund fighting dont talk about weither its useful or not!

its another skill in your tool box in a group fight true i'l stay on my feet but tis not like MMA is all about groundfighting

you really dont know alot do you

[Raipizo]

I have done ground fighting before. Ok yeah of course I'm not saying it's all about ground fighting.

[golden arhat]

But you have to admit when did MMA become most popular? When UFC started to show now ok if your learning it so you can fight in UFC it's most likely not street practical due to the violations of techniques, they wouldn't bother to teach you because it would be no use anyway, But if its not strictly for mma and you are learning street no rules fighting i could see that being more street ready :].

the only things your not allowed to do in MMA is bite gouge and groin strike

if i can hit you in the face i can poke you in the eyes
if i can kick you in the head i can kick you in the groin

i dotn need some special "traditional forms uber deadly training" to fight dirty

fights are won with basics
jab
cross
kick
hook
grapple
stamp
dodge
and block
and thats what i train
and if you think that isnt "street practical" because theres a professional venue with a minimum ruleset then you are deluded

tell you what
go attack mike tyson
you should win right cos he's used to just fighting with gloves on

you should definitley have the upperhand:rolleyes:

[Raipizo]

Ok i will :D, god your smug.

[Raipizo]

Oh, and would me and mike tyson, be like you fighting a shaolin monk?

[RisingCrane]

I think that this article really inteliigently answers the difference between street and sport:

http://jkdunlimited.com/articles/by-burton-richardson/making-sense-of-street-vs-sport/

I am applying this training methodology to my hap gar and it works brilliantly. you do not have to give up all of your 'street' type techniques just because you use an mma type training method:)

Golden Arhat:
"if i can hit you in the face i can poke you in the eyes
if i can kick you in the head i can kick you in the groin"
I don't think this is necessarily true.
Firstly, the groin kick is really easy against an MMA type of clinch structure. If you put the groin kick into the sparring (Go light and wear a good cup!) you will automatically turn your front foot and knee in (Like a kung fu bow stance!) to protect. If you don't prasctise this way, you will not develop the correct defence.
The eye poke can be used in a number of clinch or ground positions when a punch is not possible. Again, you have to have good groundfighting or clinch basics to use it. Even then, it may not be a 'fight stopper' but it will certainly force your opponent to move and therefore create space for escapes or other strikes etc.

To me the sport of mma is not as exciting as the training methods that have evolved out of it. I see no reason why we cannot use those methods as a way of improving our ability to apply the techniques in our own systems.

My Sifu is 5th generation kung fu master and about as traditional as they come. He said to me:
"Mobile phones get better every year. Why shouldn't kung fu?"

:D

[TenTigers]

My Sifu is 5th generation kung fu master and about as traditional as they come. He said to me:
"Mobile phones get better every year. Why shouldn't kung fu?"

:D

Beautiful!-this should be on everyone's wall. I know it will be on mine!:cool:

[Raipizo]

Lmao nice post guys i agree with Rising :D

[David Jamieson]

mma is cool by me.

th way it's marketed like fake ass wrestling is in bad taste.

but hey, when you are marketing to teenagers, that's how you do it apparently.

seeing as most teenagers live in a very fantasy based and unrealistic view of the world, why not promote it that way to take their dough?

having been a teenager, i speak the truthage!

[Raipizo]

Pretty much the view i was trying to get across.

[Kansuke]

mixed martial arts means taking the best from everywhere and unless you have really gone and tried wrestling and gropund fighting dont talk about weither its useful or not!


Well said.

[taai gihk yahn]

Beautiful!-this should be on everyone's wall. I know it will be on mine!:cool:

right next to the one that says "no shirt, no shoes, no dice", I warrant...;)

[golden arhat]

Oh, and would me and mike tyson, be like you fighting a shaolin monk?

the difference is, i would win, because i train to fight not to dance

although it definitley depends on the monk
i wont **** with shi de yang

[Raipizo]

Well, they aren't taught to dance. If so that would be weird... Lol

[Raipizo]

Oh by the way of course the skills of them vary just like any other martial artist some will be better than others in some ways.

[Raipizo]

Slightly off topic, but any of you guys know any good new movie releases?

[goju]

kempoits suppose to be the japanese way of saying chuan fa

as long as its not ed parker affiliated its a cool style!