Why Do Wing Chun Stylist Cite Bruce Lee?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Towards the end of his life he was pretty sure that WC was ineffective. Citing Bruce Lee as an authority on certain topics also leaves you vulnerable to his criticisms.

[Hendrik]

Why not?

One needs to face what one needs to face. It is not because of some one's critic that what is not true become true.

Cant be a Do Do bird. But examine oneself to see if the critics is true or not. if it is true accept it if it is not true smile and forget about it.



A pionner in WCK doesnt mean a GOD in WCK. everyone has thier limitation and Bias. Be it Bruce Lee or Ip Man or anyone else.



That is just reality.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Bruce Lee wasnt a WC master but i did do wonders for kung fu in general. He basically made all of kung fu more recognizable especially in the U.S. He was one of the first people to publically criticize himself and work to correct the holes in his game.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Why not?

One needs to face what one needs to face. It is not because of some one's critic that what is not true become true.
Agreed, but it makes no logical sense to hold someone up as your hero who was so critical of what you do.


Cant be a Do Do bird. But examine oneself to see if the critics is true or not. if it is true accept it if it is not true smile and forget about it.
yup




A pionner in WCK doesnt mean a GOD in WCK. everyone has thier limitation and Bias. Be it Bruce Lee or Ip Man or anyone else.
Bruce was not a Pioneer in WCK. He was a martial arts pioneer who studied WCK and determined that it was mostly junk.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Humble,

I dont think bruce lee though WC was junk, but he didnt learn the entire art, ive heard he tried to buy Ip Man a loft in China in exchange for the completion of his training but Ip turned him down. Then he wrote Tao of JKD, which to me, was his way of making up for the fact he didnt complete WC training. He trained in arts in the US to prove that WC was "junk" when in fact, he had no right to pass judgement on an art that he didnt even know. IMO

[Hendrik]

Agreed, but it makes no logical sense to hold someone up as your hero who was so critical of what you do.



Since Hawkin is still alive, Check with Hawkin, if one's WC kung fu is more advance then Bruce Lee. if not then, one got to listern to Bruce.

HOwever, if one's WCK is more advance then Bruce then what Bruce said doesnt applied to one.

That simple.

See, it is not Bruce Lee but how advance is one's WCK?






Bruce was not a Pioneer in WCK.


Bruce Lee shocked the world with WCK's Inch punch right? That single act alone qualified him as a pioneer.

Again, Check with Hawkin, and see have you surpase Bruce if not, then he is still your senior and Pioneer.




He was a martial arts pioneer who studied WCK and determined that it was mostly junk.

Do you have to believe everything he says? I dont.

just take what positive offered he has offered and forget his negative. for the negative is his problem not yours.

[Hendrik]

the fact he didnt complete WC training.


what is the standard of a so called Complete WC training? Who set that standard?

[Lee Chiang Po]

It has become painfully obvious that there are few that have a complete WC education. Bruce was no different. And his JKD was not all that great either. Bruce was a business man. He promoted himself along with the CMA, and the bottom line was his greatest interest. He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities. Aside from making funny noises, he was not all that great. And the one inch punch he demonstrated in the ring and on stage was nothing that could not be done by other good WC men. What you might remember seeing in the 3rd rate CMA movies was just good choriography sp? Same with Jacky Chan.
I think most people today tend to learn from books, and then become armchair masters of the art.

[Hendrik]

It has become painfully obvious that there are few that have a complete WC education. Bruce was no different. And his JKD was not all that great either. Bruce was a business man. He promoted himself along with the CMA, and the bottom line was his greatest interest. He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities. Aside from making funny noises, he was not all that great. And the one inch punch he demonstrated in the ring and on stage was nothing that could not be done by other good WC men. What you might remember seeing in the 3rd rate CMA movies was just good choriography sp? Same with Jacky Chan.
I think most people today tend to learn from books, and then become armchair masters of the art.


Lee,

You are right, He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities.

But how many in this forum even try to understand the kuen kuit properly?

People call it mumbo jumbo. People have no patient to think. People dont even open enough to Qi training but call it mysticsism....etc.


How can we blame Bruce Lee for those electronics fast food type of training where ourself not willing to listern to the ancestors teaching?


As my sifu, the Zen patriach Late Ven Hsuan Hua said, " Cultivation is not get instant high as smoking opium. one must be able to eat bitter and practice perserverance."

How many of WCner today think they can learn things from website, go to a week end seminal....?

I have seen those who spend 4 years 1 to 2 hours every day morning and night for just entering the door of basic stance and breathing training. How many will do that? until then what Kung fu? what WCK?

One can not even heal or expel a common cold. is that kung fu? forget about it.

[Pacman]

what is the standard of a so called Complete WC training? Who set that standard?

in his school at least, under yip man, he was not at the level of the senior students

[Hendrik]

in his school at least, under yip man, he was not at the level of the senior students


Have anyone check with Hawkin?

My View is only GM Ip Man can make the judgement of Bruce. None of us here is at that judgement level.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Do you have to believe everything he says? I dont.

just take what positive offered he has offered and forget his negative. for the negative is his problem not yours.

This is illogical and why I think that it is unacceptable.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Have anyone check with Hawkin?

My View is only GM Ip Man can make the judgement of Bruce. None of us here is at that judgement level.

Speak for yourself. IMHO Bruce was wrong about quite a bit. He had some great ideas, but he did not live in the information age. He was operating off of a lot of books were now you can just go to any school you want or pick up a DVD. Say what you want about a DVD but they are better than the books that Bruce used.

[anerlich]

Even the better JKD guys (Matt Thornton etc.) have learned to let Bruce rest.

ETD still holds up pretty well as a watchable flick.

Bruce was a famous guy who did some WC. Even Yip Man seemed to take some pride in having him as a student. No wonder he has nuthuggers, as well as haters (see above).

The poor guy's been dead for 30 years. Leave him be.

[punchdrunk]

Yip Man must have thought well of Bruce at one time considering the pictures available of the 2 doing chi sao or the student teacher pose. But Bruce did leave early in the curriculum (chum kui level) and had to do a lot of work and experimentation on his own.
He was a true pioneer of kung fu in America and taught MANY American karate champions private lessons. He pushed forth many Wing Chun principle such as economy of motion, the center line etc... those principles may exist in other styles but at that time they were not being taught or emphasized in most schools. He also emphasized realistic sparring... something that took until the current mma craze to become a reality.
Why do Wing Chun people quote or associate with Bruce? Obviously his name is still famous and he did many great things for MA in general, and in JKD there is still a huge undeniable influence of Wing Chun. Did he critisize Wing Chun? Yes along with every other system in existance including JKD, the point being we all need to be self critical and evolve to improve.

[Ultimatewingchun]

To say that Bruce Lee thought that wing chun was ineffective/junk is to display one's total lack of investigation into what BL was doing.

He (and Dan Inosanto later on) made it clear that certain wing chun principles were the nucleus of what he was doing with his JKD, ie.- use of a centerline, preference for straight line punching and kicking, use of wing chun infighting techniques (ie.- what BL referred to as trapping) from very close range, low line kicking, etc..

IN ADDITION TO those things that were purely BL's ideas, ie.- crosstraining in other arts like boxing, wrestling, escrima, longer range kicking, etc...various heavy contact (with protective gear) drilling and sparring methods that wing chun practitioners were not doing in those days, and so on.

[sanjuro_ronin]

True story,
One time when his students where out on the lake and Bruce was by the shore line, he started to do the SLT, as he did it, the sky clouded over and a storm started, his students where fearful but, as the looked, they saw someone walking on water, they realized it was Bruce !
"Come to me," he said to Inosanto, and Dan walked on water, but as he got closer, fear consumed him and he began to sink !
Bruce helped him on to the boat and chain punched the Storm into submission.

true story !!

[m1k3]

^^^^
!....... That story is true! I also heard about the time Bruce was teaching a seminar where no lunch was provided. The attendees started to get hungry and restless. Bruce's students became worried about the crowd. Bruce stepped on the stage and began to do SLT saying to the crowd not to worry, would not the spirit of IP MAN look over them?

Just then a Mr Softie ice cream truck arrived and everyone had ice cream for lunch.

[-木叶-]

Bruce Lee did not say Wing Chun is junk, what he said (briefly) is to apply knowledge and not just knowing.

In fact Bruce Lee trained mostly under Wong Shun Leong, "King of Talking Hands", his Si Heng, under Yip Man.

"Jesse Glover (his[Bruce Lee's] first American student) stated, “Wong was four years senior (in training) to Bruce in Yip Man’s clan and Bruce studied privately for a year and a half under both him and Yip Man.” Glover also wrote that Wong was “...the man most responsible for the development of Bruce Lee”

Taken from this article (http://wslwingchun.resolvedesign.com/wong_shun_leung_the_legend_behind_the_legend.htm).

[WarriorWC]

Fact: Bruce Lee was a devoted Wing Chun Practioner
Fact: Wing Chun formed the nucleus of his art Jet Kuen Do

If he thought Wing Chun was of no use, then the same would be the case for his own Art, Jeet Kuen Do.........

Fact: Bruce Lee is the best known Martial Artist of this time and he was reveered by ALL practitioners of ALL styles of Martial Arts.

[m1k3]

Fact: Bruce Lee is the best known Martial Artist of this time and he was reveered by ALL practitioners of ALL styles of Martial Arts.



Uh, no.

Best known maybe, revered by ALL, NFW!

[WarriorWC]

ok then revered by Most!!

[HumbleWCGuy]

Fact: Bruce Lee was a devoted Wing Chun Practioner
Fact: Wing Chun formed the nucleus of his art Jet Kuen Do

NO and and only sort of.
Bruce practiced Wing Chun until he decided that it sucked and he began to alter it until only the trapping was left. Then after sparring Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bruce finally came to the conclusion that trapping and chi sao were wastes of time. Ted Wong, one of Bruce's last students does no use trapping and essentially does strong side forward kickboxing that relies on a boxing straight lead for the reasons that I have mentioned above.

JKD as it is often practiced today includes trapping and a small amount of Chi Sao. Why? What not many of Bruce's students are willing to admit is that they liked the trapping so they kept it going against what Bruce thought. In part, this is because not many of them were around to get Bruce's final version.

[sanjuro_ronin]

NO and and only sort of.
Bruce practiced Wing Chun until he decided that it sucked and he began to alter it until only the trapping was left. Then after sparring Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bruce finally came to the conclusion that trapping and chi sao were wastes of time. Ted Wong, one of Bruce's last students does no use trapping and essentially does strong side forward kickboxing that relies on a boxing straight lead for the reasons that I have mentioned above.

JKD as it is often practiced today includes trapping and a small amount of Chi Sao. Why? What not many of Bruce's students are willing to admit is that they liked the trapping so they kept it going against what Bruce thought. In part, this is because not many of them were around to get Bruce's final version.

JKD is different things to different people and that is what it is suppose to be.

[HumbleWCGuy]

To say that Bruce Lee thought that wing chun was ineffective/junk is to display one's total lack of investigation into what BL was doing.

He (and Dan Inosanto later on) made it clear that certain wing chun principles were the nucleus of what he was doing with his JKD, ie.- use of a centerline, preference for straight line punching and kicking, use of wing chun infighting techniques (ie.- what BL referred to as trapping) from very close range, low line kicking, etc..

IN ADDITION TO those things that were purely BL's ideas, ie.- crosstraining in other arts like boxing, wrestling, escrima, longer range kicking, etc...various heavy contact (with protective gear) drilling and sparring methods that wing chun practitioners were not doing in those days, and so on.

You are dead wrong. In reality, the center line is just a basic martial arts principle. It is used in a number of martial arts styles. Per Ted Wong, one of Bruce's final students, Bruce got away from trapping as he found it to be ineffective against good fighters. BL students still trap today because many of them did not receive the final form of JKD or they just liked it and kept doing it. Bruce despised the WC stances, footwork, punching, and kicking. He kept the trapping until he decided that it was junk.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are dead wrong. In reality, the center line is just a basic martial arts principle. It is used in a number of martial arts styles. Per Ted Wong, one of Bruce's final students, Bruce got away from trapping as he found it to be ineffective against good fighters. BL students still trap today because many of them did not receive the final form of JKD or they just liked it and kept doing it. Bruce despised the WC stances, footwork, punching, and kicking. He kept the trapping until he decided that it was junk.

Until he decided that it was "junk" for HIM.

[HumbleWCGuy]

JKD is different things to different people and that is what it is suppose to be.

If that is the case then, you still are left with the fact that you can't cite Bruce for good or ill because his expression of JKD was too personal to reflect for good or ill on Wing Chun.

[WarriorWC]

WCGuy,

The principals philosophy are Wing Chun. As are the moves (Pak Sao, Lap Sao etc) are all utilised in similar fashion to Wing Chun. Just because something has no use to HIM does not mean it has no use at all.

Trapping has uses, Chi Sao has uses. The art of teaching such arts is to give the student as many tools at his disposal, it is down to the student what he uses. What Bruce thought that everyone was the same as him!!!!!!

One man's beef is another man's steak!

[sanjuro_ronin]

If that is the case then, you still are left with the fact that you can't cite Bruce for good or ill because his expression of JKD was too personal to reflect for good or ill on Wing Chun.

Correct, quite correct.
At best, one can cite BL about the importance of being in fighting shape and cross training, and his views on how to "tailor" MA to suit you.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Until he decided that it was "junk" for HIM.

Well lets see. He stopped teaching the stances, footwork, and finally the trapping and Chi Sao. When you stop teaching something you have decided that it is junk for everybody and not just yourself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well lets see. He stopped teaching the stances, footwork, and finally the trapping and Chi Sao. When you stop teaching something you have decided that it is junk for everybody and not just yourself.

Inosanto still teaches trapping...

[HumbleWCGuy]

Just to remind you guys or to let you know, I love Wing Chun. I am just saying that we should not hold Bruce up as our hero because I don't think that he liked us. I am not anti-WC. I am just anti-Bruce-Lee as an authority on our art.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Inosanto still teaches trapping...

Because he disagreed with Bruce's assessment. Inasanto, also teaches Muay Thai which Bruce did not like, and Dan also teaches a ton of Philippino stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because he disagreed with Bruce's assessment. Inasanto, also teaches Muay Thai which Bruce did not like, and Dan also teaches a ton of Philippino stuff. Bruce did not think much of Muay Thai.

Making my point...
BL always said that JKD is something different for everyone, that his JKD would not be "joe's" or "freds" or "bills".

[HumbleWCGuy]

Making my point...
BL always said that JKD is something different for everyone, that his JKD would not be "joe's" or "freds" or "bills".

This does not get around the fact that he stopped teaching the fundamentals of WC. As I said, when you stop teaching it, you have decided that it is no good for anyone.

For example, I have a unique body type so I teach a number of things that I don't do personally. However, I recognize the benefits of a number of techniques that I no longer use in combat, and teach them to my students.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This does not get around the fact that he stopped teaching the fundamentals of WC. As I said, when you stop teaching it, you have decided that it is no good for anyone.
.

Did he stop teaching the vertical punch? No.
Did he stop teaching the centerline? No.
Did he stop teaching low line "stomp" kicks? No.
Did he stop teaching short range power? No.
Did he stop the wooden dummy? No.
Did he stop teaching finger strikes? No.

I agree that BL should not be held up as anything "symbolic" for WC, but to say that he disregarded all that was WC is incorrect.
Was he a "WC guy" ?
No.

[WarriorWC]

HumbleWCGuy,

Bruce is not a Wing Chun Hero! If the truth be known he made his own stuff up using what knowledge he had of Wing Chun and using that as the basis of his own style.

Bruce lee was charismatic, has good movement and fit. He appeared in a few films and then became famous. That is it as far as I am aware. He comapred nothing to the 'real Life' heroes and masters who are not well known. People like Lee Shing, Wong Shung Lung, Yip man ut more importantly our own Sifus!

Cheers:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are no heroes in the MA, certainly not in the correct sense of the word.
There are people whos skills and dedication we can admire, but heroes, idols and such are too strong of words to use, typically.

[Hendrik]

There are no heroes in the MA, certainly not in the correct sense of the word.
There are people whos skills and dedication we can admire, but heroes, idols and such are too strong of words to use, typically.



Exactly,

From Mas Oyama to Old Sensei to Bruce Lee to lots of Chinese Martial artis.... it is their skills and dedication we admire.


as for

the fundamentals of WC.

Let's be honest, by the1850 standard, if one cant even evoke the basic Chuk Ken or Keng Ken, there is no fundamental. and sorry to say this fundamental has been lost since the past 40 years. So? who can claim they know the fundamentals?

Doing vertical punch, tan sau, and the SICK YJKYM as the general public? those are just some tool, not WCK at all.



and see fro yourself how is a typical WCK do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk

if some tell me the can do better then the WCner in the clip. then please share with us what wrong the WCner in the clip does and what training needs makes the different?


It is time to examine what do one buying, brand name car or good design car. or both.

As Mas Oyama once said, if my memory serve, most of kung fu people cant move when it comes to real sparing or fight. Take others critics because there are some truth in it be it from Mas or Bruce or Gracie or Terence.

Nothing to defend but lots to learn.

[Yoshiyahu]

what is the standard of a so called Complete WC training? Who set that standard?

Jun Fan did not complete or learn all three forms. He also only learn part of Wooden Man and didn't learn any of weapon forms.

So any student of WC who has Sil Lim Tao, alot of Chi Sau and Bil Gee will have about as much WC training as Bruce. Provided he adds some techniques from other arts He will exceed in his understanding of Martial Arts. But a person with the entire system atleast the basics and first four forms will be an established WC fighter.


It has become painfully obvious that there are few that have a complete WC education. Bruce was no different. And his JKD was not all that great either. Bruce was a business man. He promoted himself along with the CMA, and the bottom line was his greatest interest. He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities. Aside from making funny noises, he was not all that great. And the one inch punch he demonstrated in the ring and on stage was nothing that could not be done by other good WC men. What you might remember seeing in the 3rd rate CMA movies was just good choriography sp? Same with Jacky Chan.
I think most people today tend to learn from books, and then become armchair masters of the art.

Could Jun Fan demostrate the Inch Punch in a actual fight?

Also look at his stance when he does the quasi inch punch?

As for footwork if you look at Augstine Fong's footwork and then look at a video of Jeet Kune Do foot work its basically the same thing. Check out Bruce Lee's Fighting method.


Bruce lees comments...Well Hendrik did you ever read what Bruce lee said about Chi and cultivation? I don't think you would like it too much.

Was Bruce Lee a Wing Chun idol...

In my opinion No, But from the rumors he was a great Gung Fu fighter. Many non-martial artist and non-wing chun fighters love Bruce Lee for his Gung Fu. They never refer to him as Wing Chun. But simply Gung Fu Pioneer.

There are two stories to why Bruce Lee changed his teachings..

1. As you guys stated it may be due to jealousy because he didn't get the entire system from Yip Man. So He went out to teach his own version of Jeet Kune Do to discredit Wing Chun. However it is rumored that Bruce Lee letter learn Third Form and the Rest of the Wooden Man from Wong Shun Leung when he went back to Hong Kong.

2.The other story which is possibly true is that Jun Fan was ordered to not teach Wing Chun secrets to the gwalo. So Jun Fan changed many things in His Jun Fan art to JKD which would get rid of YGKYM and get rid of the forms ie. Sil Lim Tao. So Form practicing was replaced with extra partner drilling and sparring. He also pulled principles from Western Arts that related to Wing Chun to give people striking ablitily. Such as a boxers punches were to replace the chain punches, Upper cuts and hooks that wing chun has in Bil Gee and Chum Kiu. Also he kept the straight punch but no chain punch. Kwan Sao and Huen Sau and Kwun Sau are not practice. Pak Sau is similair to slap boxing so that can stay. Really does Bruce incorporate a Tan Sau or Fook Sau? Also a cover and parry replaced wu sau and man sau. Etc. Steps were classified as fencing steps but realistically it is still just WC steps. Jiujitsu was incorporated along with northern shaolin kicks to make JKD seem to deviate from WC a little. But in actual combat does a JKD really kick above the waist?

So if the case was true that Bruce was forbidden to teach WC to Gawlo by Yip Man. It makes perfect sense that he would altered his art alot to make money. I read some articles that actually say Bruce was not allowed to teach WC. I believe his first students actual learn SLT and Wing Chun from. An later everything got changed!

[HumbleWCGuy]

Did he stop teaching the vertical punch? No.
Did he stop teaching the centerline? No.
Did he stop teaching low line "stomp" kicks? No.
Did he stop teaching short range power? No.
Did he stop the wooden dummy? No.
Did he stop teaching finger strikes? No.

I agree that BL should not be held up as anything "symbolic" for WC, but to say that he disregarded all that was WC is incorrect.
Was he a "WC guy" ?
No.
Center line-basic to many martial ats
Vertical punch- he stopped teaching the WC version he used a boxing version of it as explained in Teri Toms book that I suggest you read.
http://www.amazon.com/Straight-Lead-Core-Bruce-Lees/dp/0804836302/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242145696&sr=8-2

Stomp kick- I would hardly call someone a WC man for doing a stomp kick.
Short range power - no but let's face it. The one inch punch is more of a demonstration gimmick than anything.
Wooden dummy - yes because he stopped teaching trapping per ted wong
Finger strikes - no, however, I would hardly call someone a WC man because he uses and eye jab.

If demonstration gimmicks, stomps, and an eye jab are WC then, I guess Bruce practiced WC.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Bruce Lee never completely departed from Wing Chun. In 1967, well into his JKD phase, his daytimers confirm that he was still training Wing Chun movements. Also there was always disparity between what Lee taught and what he trained. Most important for Wing Chun is the respect that Lee continued to have for people like Wong Shun Leung, even when he is said to have broken away from the art of Wing Chun.

In addition, isn't it a logical progression to free oneself from dogma. Yip Man is said to have forgotten the Dummy form in order to liberate himself from rigidity. Instead he used the dummy for free movement.

Is it even possible to depart completely from ones base art?

Suki

[sanjuro_ronin]

Center line-basic to many martial ats
Vertical punch- he stopped teaching the WC version he used a boxing version of it as explained in Teri Toms book that I suggest you read.
http://www.amazon.com/Straight-Lead-Core-Bruce-Lees/dp/0804836302/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242145696&sr=8-2

Stomp kick- I would hardly call someone a WC man for doing a stomp kick.
Short range power - no but let's face it. The one inch punch is more of a demonstration gimmick than anything.
Wooden dummy - yes because he stopped teaching trapping per ted wong
Finger strikes - no, however, I would hardly call someone a WC man because he uses and eye jab.

If demonstration gimmicks, stomps, and an eye jab are WC then, I guess Bruce practiced WC.

Fact is, he didn't get that stuff from anywhere else, he got it from WC.
Unless you know different, I mean, his WC lineage and training is verifiable, but what else is?

[chusauli]

How could Bruce teach WCK if his education in it was not complete?

But on the other hand, his concept of Jeet Kuen is one of the concepts of WCK, and embodies the core essence of WCK.

How many of you have the timing and cross training and conditioning of Bruce Lee? His example was a good one. To be able to pull off Jeet Kuen, you have to have excellent timing... a functional timing.

And I do not think that anyone with just a knowledge of forms of WCK and Chi Sao necessarily know more than Bruce did, or are able to penetrate the understandings of what TCMA have. Heck, we have lots of people these days who know all the forms of WCK and aren't worth a dime.

Put it into perspective, he was very good for his time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How could Bruce teach WCK if his education in it was not complete?

But on the other hand, his concept of Jeet Kuen is one of the concepts of WCK, and embodies the core essence of WCK.

How many of you have the timing and cross training and conditioning of Bruce Lee? His example was a good one. To be able to pull off Jeet Kuen, you have to have excellent timing... a functional timing.

And I do not think that anyone with just a knowledge of forms of WCK and Chi Sao necessarily know more than Bruce did, or are able to penetrate the understandings of what TCMA have. Heck, we have lots of people these days who know all the forms of WCK and aren't worth a dime.

Put it into perspective, he was very good for his time.

Well said, he certainly was good enough for the likes of Norris and Lewis and others to train with him.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Fact is, he didn't get that stuff from anywhere else, he got it from WC.
Unless you know different, I mean, his WC lineage and training is verifiable, but what else is?

No WC footwork + No Trapping = No Wing Chun

End of story.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No WC footwork + No Trapping = No Wing Chun

End of story.

Good luck with that, LOL !

[Hendrik]

No WC footwork + No Trapping = No Wing Chun

End of story.



What WC foot work?

What Trapping?

What is the uniqueness of WCK which Bruce Lee doesnt know?

[Hendrik]

Jun Fan did not complete or learn all three forms.



if one goes by these non sense forms standard, 99.99% of WCner today is screwed.

Because there is only one form before they break it into three in the red boat when the name of the art changes into Wing Chun kuen from Siu Lien Tau.

[HumbleWCGuy]

HumbleWCGuy,

Bruce is not a Wing Chun Hero! If the truth be known he made his own stuff up using what knowledge he had of Wing Chun and using that as the basis of his own style.

Bruce lee was charismatic, has good movement and fit. He appeared in a few films and then became famous. That is it as far as I am aware. He comapred nothing to the 'real Life' heroes and masters who are not well known. People like Lee Shing, Wong Shung Lung, Yip man ut more importantly our own Sifus!

Cheers:cool:

I am glad that we agree. I was hoping that I was dead wrong with my original post, but it seems that many put Bruce on a pedistal.

[Hendrik]

How could Bruce teach WCK if his education in it was not complete?

But on the other hand, his concept of Jeet Kuen is one of the concepts of WCK, and embodies the core essence of WCK.

How many of you have the timing and cross training and conditioning of Bruce Lee? His example was a good one. To be able to pull off Jeet Kuen, you have to have excellent timing... a functional timing.

And I do not think that anyone with just a knowledge of forms of WCK and Chi Sao necessarily know more than Bruce did, or are able to penetrate the understandings of what TCMA have. Heck, we have lots of people these days who know all the forms of WCK and aren't worth a dime.

Put it into perspective, he was very good for his time.



Robert,

How is Hawkin's view on Bruce's Kung Fu if you could share?
That will give the first hand direct facts instead of guessing and speculating.


Best Regards

[chusauli]

Robert,

How is Hawkin's view on Bruce's Kung Fu if you could share?
That will give the first hand direct facts instead of guessing and speculating.

Best Regards

I have written Hawkins' viewpoint in the old articles I wrote on my old website. The are entitled the Bruce Lee series:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/index.html

Amazing to see this was written already over 18 years ago, in 1991! I feel old! :(

I will say Hawkins said JKD was not complete, but he found the Jeet Kuen concept very useful - but how many have the timing to do it? Also, it was not battle tested.. you can create an art, but it has to be battle tested to see if it is valid. Hawkins said JKD does not have the mechanics of WCK, it does not have the skill Yip Man executed in swallowing and spitting with the body. The limitations Bruce saw were his own limitations, not necessarily WCK limitations. You guys can read the rest...

Personally, I will say Bruce Lee did father a functional martial arts movement, and to train realistically. Even you can make 1 Pak Da into many variations by simply taking different angles, footwork and timing and power, so it is not necessary to have so many techniques - only a few will suffice. I think Bruce Lee was great because he was a great example for Chinese in Hollywood and martial arts, and because he opened up interest in the Asian martial arts in general. BTW, Jun Fan and JKD are 2 different things, so its best not to confuse the two.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have written Hawkins' viewpoint in the old articles I wrote on my old website. The are entitled the Bruce Lee series:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/index.html

Amazing to see this was written already over 18 years ago, in 1991! I feel old! :(

I will say Hawkins said JKD was not complete, but he found the Jeet Kuen concept very useful - but how many have the timing to do it? Also, it was not battle tested.. you can create an art, but it has to be battle tested to see if it is valid. Hawkins said JKD does not have the mechanics of WCK, it does not have the skill Yip Man executed in swallowing and spitting with the body. The limitations Bruce saw were his own limitations, not necessarily WCK limitations. You guys can read the rest...

Personally, I will say Bruce Lee did father a functional martial arts movement, and to train realistically. Even you can make 1 Pak Da into many variations by simply taking different angles, footwork and timing and power, so it is not necessary to have so many techniques - only a few will suffice. I think Bruce Lee was great because he was a great example for Chinese in Hollywood and martial arts, and because he opened up interest in the Asian martial arts in general. BTW, Jun Fan and JKD are 2 different things, so its best not to confuse the two.

This is what level we as WC stylist should view Bruce. This is a great post. Thanks.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Robert,

Did Hawkins ever meet Bruce after he departed Hong Kong?

Did Hawkins actually get to see, first hand, Bruce's development post-Wing Chun or is Hawkins impression of JKD based on the letters they exchanged?

Suki

[Tensei85]

Thanks Chu Laoshi,

Great article! I enjoyed the read.

[Yoshiyahu]

Besides making good kung fu movies. What made Bruce Lee any more notable than any other Martial Artists?

How was he more exceptional than Yip Man? Wong Shun Leung? or any other none Chinese Movie stars who practice a real fighting art?

My Question is if Jun Fan never made it to hollywood then would really know who he was in the west? Would we even care?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's a summary of a personal conversation I had with Dan Inosanto back in 1979:

Bruce went behind closed doors and sparred people like Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Louis Delgado, Wally Jay, etc.

And they all respected him afterwards for his skill.

Now, here's something Inosanto said about the results of the behind-the-scenes sparring that I never forgot because it was so poignant:

He said that BL beat Chuck Norris so bad that it was "embarassing to watch"...(that phrase will never leave my memory)....he said that BL punched and kicked Chuck Norris "from one end of the room to the other"...(another phrase I shall never forget).

..........................................


As for the "Who can do the timing" thing:

W shouldn't confuse two separate issues...

1) Bruce's extraordinary speed

2) The "timing" that BL talked about/taught to his students, ie.- much of which can be found in the "Tao of JKD" and in other books that were published, such as "Bruce Lee's fighting method" (volumes 1-5), and Inosanto's first book, "JKD, the Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee".

The fact that no one was as fast as Bruce (I saw Joe Lewis on the Johnny Carson show one night back in the 1970's say that BL was the fasted human being he ever saw)...

this fact takes nothing away from the efficacy of what he was teaching in terms of broken rhythm, hitting on the half beat, how to riposte, how to set up (through timing and distancing) attacks with the fists by first using low line kicks, how to set up fight-ending kicks by using punches first, how to stop kick when he attacks through a developed sense of distance and rhythm, what angles were best used to close on an opponent, how to set up the feet (ie.- raised and lowered heels) to maximize speed and penetration, etc.

Sometimes I'm really amazed at all the revisionist history, or the lack of historical understanding in the first place - and then such "misunderstanding" is later passed off as "insight". :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Robert,

Thanks and appreciate !

[chusauli]

Hi Robert,

Did Hawkins ever meet Bruce after he departed Hong Kong?

Did Hawkins actually get to see, first hand, Bruce's development post-Wing Chun or is Hawkins impression of JKD based on the letters they exchanged?

Suki

Suki,

Hawkins was old buddies with Bruce in Jr High School in HK. He saw Bruce before and after JKD. He did not get many letters on JKD, he got first hand in person knowledge on JKD from Bruce, when he was in HK making movies.

Best regards,

[chusauli]

Thanks Chu Laoshi,

Great article! I enjoyed the read.


My pleasure - already old history...18 years! Wow! Some of you were in diapers still! LOL!

[chusauli]

Besides making good kung fu movies. What made Bruce Lee any more notable than any other Martial Artists?

How was he more exceptional than Yip Man? Wong Shun Leung? or any other none Chinese Movie stars who practice a real fighting art?

My Question is if Jun Fan never made it to hollywood then would really know who he was in the west? Would we even care?

Bruce had insight then to check the universalness of interception in all martial arts, Western and Asian. That made him unique and special. If you look at my old article: (Hawkins)I asked him if he meant to create another style. Bruce firmly told me, "No! It is only the expression of the motion! You can say it is my expression of the pak sao in wing chun (note: Pak sao is one of the fundamental movements from wing chun and depending upon circumstance, it may be offensive or defensive in nature.) I didn't betray sifu, I didn't betray Chinese martial arts. I wanted to show others the application way of jeet kune. I wanted to prove I could stop their fast attacks coming at me." You can apply Jeet Kuen to fencing, boxing, shooting, wrestling, BJJ, Karate, etc. It is universal.

That insight is great! He boiled it down to one major concept - and the rest of the JKD is what to do if you can't intercept... I think it is revolutionary - no constraints to the expression of WCK. To me, that is huge - it can show how WCK can be applied to all arts, and why I call WCK the functional aspects of all martial arts. How many WCK men can do that now? All WCK men do blah, blah talk about original system, gangsters, and secret BS - but he answered Yip Man's problem -"I may be tricking you, go out and test it..." WCK men today lack the lien gung - but this dude in the 1960's and '70's was looking into nutrition and experimenting with cardio training, anaerobic training, weight training (even KB's), and 5 factors of combat - strike, kick, throw, jointlock and ground fighting. Many WCK people think they know it all now, and clearly many are lame.

He may not have been more exceptional than Yip Man or WSL, but surely in modernizing, he was. He also bridged a cultural gap, introducing the West to real martial arts. He did much more for all of us. Hollywood was just a vehicle for his craft. Don't put Bruce down - he did all of us a world of good.

[Hendrik]

My pleasure - already old history...18 years! Wow! Some of you were in diapers still! LOL!



Hahaha, RC, I am so depress when I saw this great new miss WC model... Megan

http://image.hotdog.hu/_data/members1/145/981145/images/asian_girls_megan_lai6.jpg

I dream I am still 30+ hahahah

BTW dont tell Mrs. Chu about Megan ! :D:D

[chusauli]

Victor,

I agree he sparred...but it was more like light touch sparring with those big names, not full contact. He was not in their weight class. Not to take anything away from anyone, but in the '60's many were caught up in how a system looks, rather than functionality, and he was much more alive and loose and relaxed (the secret of his speed) than those guys. But those men were champs of their time.

At that time, everyone was more rigid in their thinking (but things haven't changed that much today for many). He also knew how to psychologically trick people and strike where they would be, not where they were. He was real smart.

As far as the timing goes, he got a lot from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Judo-Text-Instructors-Students/dp/080481631X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242166126&sr=8-1#reader

Check out chapter 2.

Since I am a writer and read many, many books on the same martial books Bruce did, I could see many of his sources...

Best regards,

[anerlich]

Chusauli is correct.


I am just saying that we should not hold Bruce up as our hero because I don't think that he liked us.

Who are "us"? I practice BJJ, MMA, and play around with La Canne and FMA based knifework as well as having 20 years WC, several years of xingyi/Bagua and some othr KF as well. I might be closer to some JKD guys than to those you seem to want to call "us".


I am just anti-Bruce-Lee as an authority on our art.

I don't think anyone seriously regards him as a WC authority. As a general MAist, however, his fame and influence are indisputable. He achieved far more in his short life than any of his critics and detractors here ever will.

[chusauli]

When one stops looking at one's ego and persona, system, etc, and considers the universalness of Bruce Lee's teaching, they have to see the best that Bruce Lee gave us.

For me, having studied many martial arts, but specializing in WCK, I see the positive capability that WCK can have on society as a whole. All martial arts end with simplicity, directness, and economy of motion, can intercept and have to train what is functional. Man is more important than system, system is only a means to get there.

Anerlich, I agree - "we" just can't be WCK; "we" have to be martial artists looking for truth in martial arts to really be Functional Martial arts.

[Phil Redmond]

Towards the end of his life he was pretty sure that WC was ineffective. Citing Bruce Lee as an authority on certain topics also leaves you vulnerable to his criticisms.
You are so wrong. Bruce didn't want to teach WC. He wanted to keep it within a small circle. He even said that it wasn't for outsiders.

[Yoshiyahu]

You are so wrong. Bruce didn't want to teach WC. He wanted to keep it within a small circle. He even said that it wasn't for outsiders.

Why Did Bruce only want to keep the Authenic WC within a small circle?

[HumbleWCGuy]

You are so wrong. Bruce didn't want to teach WC. He wanted to keep it within a small circle. He even said that it wasn't for outsiders.
Is that why he didn't teach the Chinese Ted Wong Trapping....because he was an outsider?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Robert,

BL got a lot from many books, and trust me when I tell you that I've read everything I can get my hands on for well over 30 years now - so you're not alone on this.

But the point is that BL could put these moves into action - as his movies clearly indicate - as well as first hand accounts from people like Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Ted Wong, Joe Lewis, and the rest.

Go back and watch the fight in the Roman colliseum with Chuck Norris in "Return of the Dragon" for one. Or the fight with Kareem Abdul Jabbar in "Game of Death".

The man knew what he was doing, clearly.

As for "light touch" sparring - this may be true in some instances (ie.- Joe Lewis, for example)....but not in others. Inosanto was quite specific as to what happened behind-closed-doors with Chuck Norris.

................................

And speaking of Joe Lewis (a proven full contact heavyweight fighter in his day)....he was so impressed with BL's 5 angles of attack that he himself wrote numerous articles about them in the mid-late 1970's that appeared in various magazines (ie.- Black belt, Inside Kung Fu, etc.)....

wherein he took BL's words and concepts and tried to pass them off as his own (I still have some of these articles/magazines archived at home).

AGAIN: The fact is, Bruce Lee was an excellent fighter.

And all the hype (mostly his own doing) that went far beyond the call does not change that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is that why he didn't teach the Chinese Ted Wong Trapping....because he was an outsider?

Here is Ted doing trapping:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhIYRzyZhps
Supposedly, according to the video, from JKD, so...if he didn't learn it from BL, where did he learn trapping in JKD ?
An honest question since I don't know much about Ted at all.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Have met Ted Wong when I took my Instructor Grade Level 10 (Gold Sash) test under William Cheung in 1990 - and Ted Wong was there as one of the guests-of-honor for the weekend.

This took place at a hotel in Boulder, Colorado over a Saturday and Sunday - with about 100 participants in the William Cheung seminars and the Saturday night banquet (and Ted Wong sat next to William Cheung while I took my test with two other folks on Saturday afternoon after that day's seminar).

And the JKD demo he did at the banquet that night was terrific, as I recall.

Ted learned his "trapping" from Bruce, as I recall him saying during an impromptu conversation with a bunch of guys after his demo.

[Kevin73]

Let's see BL's great ideas? Nope, most of the Tao of JKD is plagarized notes from other books. Nothing original there.

The "famous people" that BL trained with like Gene LeBell and Wally Jay? Said he was a great athlete but shallow as a MA.

The Chinese Masters? All couldn't stand him, BL talked poorly about all of them. The "challenge" had nothing to do with him teaching non-chinese people, that is just marketing hype.

Bruce studied WC for about 3 yrs before coming to the US. He never learned things on a deeper level because of his attitude and personality. BL is only famous because of his movies.

Everything about him is just propaganda and Hollywood hype.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea The only reason he has so much hype is because of Hollywood...so true...Alot people do not want to face up to this truth!


Let's see BL's great ideas? Nope, most of the Tao of JKD is plagarized notes from other books. Nothing original there.

The "famous people" that BL trained with like Gene LeBell and Wally Jay? Said he was a great athlete but shallow as a MA.

The Chinese Masters? All couldn't stand him, BL talked poorly about all of them. The "challenge" had nothing to do with him teaching non-chinese people, that is just marketing hype.

Bruce studied WC for about 3 yrs before coming to the US. He never learned things on a deeper level because of his attitude and personality. BL is only famous because of his movies.

Everything about him is just propaganda and Hollywood hype.

[Vajramusti]

Towards the end of his life he was pretty sure that WC was ineffective. Citing Bruce Lee as an authority on certain topics also leaves you vulnerable to his criticisms.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What criticism? he moved away from HK and added things to what he learned in wc.He retained his wing chun for his own use. His recognition of the role of conditioning after the Wong Jack man encounter was not misplaced.IMO FWIW- not an issue of authority- but of respect and recognition of his role in bringing attention to kung fu in the US. I got started in wing chun because I happened to live in Tucson at that time and before I saw a BL movie and my sifu was doing wing chun there.Enter the Dragon had not yet come to that town. When I did see BL movies I was impressed with his agility and athleticism- though I thought his altercation with a black boxer in one alley scene was hokey from a boxing POV. He wasn't in wing chun long enough to become a teaching authority in wing chun. He acknowledged his debt to wing chun for his foundations and "jeet" was and remains a wing chun function. If he had been around WSL and IM longer IMO he would have done more wing chun.Good foundation in wing chun allows you to adapt and that's what BL did after moving away from his HK wing chun training.Look past the name dropping after his death. Let him RIP.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Why Did Bruce only want to keep the Authenic WC within a small circle?
I have no clue. I just happen to have seen a letter written by BL saying that.

[Kevin73]

I have no clue. I just happen to have seen a letter written by BL saying that.

I had never heard that in reference to his WC. I have read that BL said his JKD wasn't for everyone and that one about 1 in 10,000 could do it.

[Yoshiyahu]

I had never heard that in reference to his WC. I have read that BL said his JKD wasn't for everyone and that one about 1 in 10,000 could do it.

Did Bruce Lee write that in one of his books?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I had never heard that in reference to his WC. I have read that BL said his JKD wasn't for everyone and that one about 1 in 10,000 could do it.

I think it was HIS version of JKD was HIS and that only 1 in 10k would be able to do it...I think the point he was trying to make is that JKD must be tailored to the individual and that "Bob's" JKD won't be "Tony's".

[Kevin73]

Did Bruce Lee write that in one of his books?

Yes, here is the exact quote:

"Of my art--gung fu and jeet kune do--only one of 10,000 can handle it. It is martial art. Complete offensive attacks. It is silly to think that almost anyone can learn it. It isn't really contemporary forms of the art I teach. Mainly that which I work with--martial attack. It is really a smooth rhythmic expression of smashing the guy before he hits you, with any method available." -page 59 of Jeet Kune Do Bruce Lee's Commentaries on the Martial Way.


Why would he only limit to "his JKD", that goes against everything that he said. There should be NO ONE doing "his JKD". I think he thought that the whole idea of JKD was limited to a few people in the martial arts that had the physical talent and mental ability.

[AdrianK]

Did Bruce Lee write that in one of his books?

Yeah, the tao of jeet kune do, have you heard of it? :D



I think it was HIS version of JKD was HIS and that only 1 in 10k would be able to do it...I think the point he was trying to make is that JKD must be tailored to the individual and that "Bob's" JKD won't be "Tony's".

Could be, but he was also kinda arrogant at times, judging from interviews and the like, and he might've meant that most people were either too dumb or physically incapable :)

[AdrianK]

Why Did Bruce only want to keep the Authenic WC within a small circle?

Its not as cut and dry as you think. It isn't as if Bruce was teaching the system of Wing Chun, as he was taught, to insiders, and JKD to outsiders.

He specifically asked to keep certain wing chun techniques and concepts, away from people not in his inner circle. That isn't an endorsement of wing chun itself, just an endorsement of certain concepts. Keep in mind that the SPM stuff he learned never shows up anywhere in any of the JKD I've ever seen, though it has shown up in videos. So Bruce kept a lot to himself and to his inner circle.



Let's see BL's great ideas? Nope, most of the Tao of JKD is plagarized notes from other books. Nothing original there.

Well, the tao of jeet kune do is a collection of his writings, it was incomplete and should never be taken as anything near complete. Its a collection of writings and ideas, pretty much an incomplete rough draft of a rough draft, it was never edited by Bruce himself. To say it is simply plagiarized notes from other books is ridiculous. The quotes are quotes that bruce wrote down and would more than likely have never been published in that fashion.

The meat of the book is in everything else he writes down. And theres quite a bit that was VERY original for that time. And thats not even taking into account that the very CONCEPT of Jeet Kune Do is still, to this day, more advanced than the general martial arts world. Hundreds of thousands of martial artists are still locking themselves into stylistic boundaries and never bothering to think of martial arts outside of what their teacher tells them. Never bothering to think outside of their box. Never bothering to test, or try. Only to be spoon-fed a general idea and technique and doctrine regardless of their body type, and being taught that everything else is either wrong, inferior, or both.

Jeet Kune Do is still very relevant, and very original.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks for a good post, Adrian.

Bruce Lee really was extremely arrogant, no doubt - and this contributes greatly to the Bruce Lee hate and the Bruce Lee/JKD put-downs that many people engage in.

But arrogance or not, the fact still remains that he was VERY GOOD at what he did, ie.- he really could fight (and fight well), he revolutionized training methods for ALL the standup oriental arts (with the notable exception of Muay Thai), he brought tons of up-to-date fight efficient footwork and delivery system to punching and kicking, he clearly helped propel wing chun infighting principles and techniques into the western world....

and was without a doubt the father of the modern day belief in CROSSTRAINING.

[Yoshiyahu]

I dont know the JKD guys I see today Just look like glorified Kick boxers...

They lack the flow, speed and power that Bruce had to make his Tao work...

Anyway If I had a choice of Sifu to learn from..

1.Jeet Kune Do
2.Ninjitsu
3.Hung Gar


I think I would pick number 3. But thats just me. I can see Hung Gar working for me. JKD I could see it working for me If I learn another art first an had a strong foundation but really would that be the JKD or the other art I could already fight with?



Thanks for a good post, Adrian.

Bruce Lee really was extremely arrogant, no doubt - and this contributes greatly to the Bruce Lee hate and the Bruce Lee/JKD put-downs that many people engage in.

But arrogance or not, the fact still remains that he was VERY GOOD at what he did, ie.- he really could fight (and fight well), he revolutionized training methods for ALL the standup oriental arts (with the notable exception of Muay Thai), he brought tons of up-to-date fight efficient footwork and delivery system to punching and kicking, he clearly helped propel wing chun infighting principles and techniques into the western world....

and was without a doubt the father of the modern day belief in CROSSTRAINING.

[AdrianK]

I dont know the JKD guys I see today Just look like glorified Kick boxers...

The fact that they look similar to boxing or kickboxing is more of a plus than a minus, given the fact that the effectiveness of these systems is proven. Many people, when actually fighting, wing chun guys included, look like kickboxers, regardless of style, when you disregard stance. Look at the Wing Chun fight quest episode for instance. There aren't many things you can do to NOT look like a kickboxer in a fight. If you're amazing and strong at trapping thats awesome, that might separate you. But striking/wrestling is far more common than a good trapper.

But just because you practice JKD or any style doesn't mean you'll be anywhere near like Bruce Lee, just like how thousands of people train boxing and most are nowhere near even the lowest professional level, let alone guys like Floyd Mayweather Jr or Manny Pacquiao who would destroy them.


They lack the flow, speed and power that Bruce had to make his Tao work...

Training and martial arts was his life. For most people it isn't. Even for most people who love and spend a lot of time on martial arts, it still isn't. And even for those, only a few people will have the physical and mental capacity to attain a high level. This is shown time and again by athletic sports, everyone wants to be great, but simply wanting to be great and training, won't make you great. There are physical and mental limitations for everyone.

[Kansuke]

I dont know the JKD guys I see today Just look like glorified Kick boxers...



Gee, who does that sound like? :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Gee, who does that sound like? :rolleyes:

oh, those two have been hugging nuts since the latter got on here...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dont know the JKD guys I see today Just look like glorified Kick boxers...

They lack the flow, speed and power that Bruce had to make his Tao work...




really? Who ?

[Yoshiyahu]

really? Who ?

All of them That train JKD only!!!!

[Kevin73]

Its not as cut and dry as you think. It isn't as if Bruce was teaching the system of Wing Chun, as he was taught, to insiders, and JKD to outsiders.

He specifically asked to keep certain wing chun techniques and concepts, away from people not in his inner circle. That isn't an endorsement of wing chun itself, just an endorsement of certain concepts. Keep in mind that the SPM stuff he learned never shows up anywhere in any of the JKD I've ever seen, though it has shown up in videos. So Bruce kept a lot to himself and to his inner circle.




Well, the tao of jeet kune do is a collection of his writings, it was incomplete and should never be taken as anything near complete. Its a collection of writings and ideas, pretty much an incomplete rough draft of a rough draft, it was never edited by Bruce himself. To say it is simply plagiarized notes from other books is ridiculous. The quotes are quotes that bruce wrote down and would more than likely have never been published in that fashion.

The meat of the book is in everything else he writes down. And theres quite a bit that was VERY original for that time. And thats not even taking into account that the very CONCEPT of Jeet Kune Do is still, to this day, more advanced than the general martial arts world. Hundreds of thousands of martial artists are still locking themselves into stylistic boundaries and never bothering to think of martial arts outside of what their teacher tells them. Never bothering to think outside of their box. Never bothering to test, or try. Only to be spoon-fed a general idea and technique and doctrine regardless of their body type, and being taught that everything else is either wrong, inferior, or both.

Jeet Kune Do is still very relevant, and very original.

Yes, they were a collection of his notes. It could be argued whether or not they were a personal diary type thing, or if he was going to write a book. The fact is that they were published as HIS ideas and writings. They are direct copies out of other books on various subjects and no where do the original authors get credit.

Here are a couple of links citing specific examples and discuss this.
http://www.martialdirect.com/articles/bruceleept1.htm
http://tkdtutor.com/00QuickAccess/Counterpoint/BruceLee/BruceLee01.htm

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes, they were a collection of his notes. It could be argued whether or not they were a personal diary type thing, or if he was going to write a book. The fact is that they were published as HIS ideas and writings. They are direct copies out of other books on various subjects and no where do the original authors get credit.

Here are a couple of links citing specific examples and discuss this.
http://www.martialdirect.com/articles/bruceleept1.htm
http://tkdtutor.com/00QuickAccess/Counterpoint/BruceLee/BruceLee01.htm

Wow...Good find Kevin I didn't know that!

[chusauli]

Excellent! Glad people can see the truth. Personally, I think he copied passages to use as teaching material, but did not cite his sources. Of course, his books were published after his death.

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share more Chusauli???



Excellent! Glad people can see the truth. Personally, I think he copied passages to use as teaching material, but did not cite his sources. Of course, his books were published after his death.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All of them That train JKD only!!!!
Great, please feel free to name one or as many as you like.

[chusauli]

Please share more Chusauli???

What? People know that Tao of JKD were notes - all done without citations. There were whole passages taken out of numerous texts like Edwin Haislet's Boxing book, books on fencing, judo, self defense, DT Suzuki, Zen classics, etc. People who never read such an assortment of books on Zen and Fighting arts would be amazed that he had such insight and originality, but many concepts were, of course, drawn from various sources.

Funny thing, it is said, "If you copy from one, it is plagurism; but if you copy from many, it is called scholarship."

[sanjuro_ronin]

What? People know that Tao of JKD were notes - all done without citations. There were whole passages taken out of numerous texts like Edwin Haislet's Boxing book, books on fencing, judo, self defense, DT Suzuki, Zen classics, etc. People who never read such an assortment of books on Zen and Fighting arts would be amazed that he had such insight and originality, but many concepts were, of course, drawn from various sources.

Funny thing, it is said, "If you copy from one, it is plagurism; but if you copy from many, it is called scholarship."

Well said Sifu Chu.
I think that sometimes people forget that "nothing is new, its simple re-invented".
I think the fact that so much of what BL wrote was, at the time, considered "revolutionary" means that it was due to be said, again.

[Yoshiyahu]

What made revolutionary?


Well said Sifu Chu.
I think that sometimes people forget that "nothing is new, its simple re-invented".
I think the fact that so much of what BL wrote was, at the time, considered "revolutionary" means that it was due to be said, again.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Yes, they were a collection of his notes. It could be argued whether or not they were a personal diary type thing, or if he was going to write a book. The fact is that they were published as HIS ideas and writings. They are direct copies out of other books on various subjects and no where do the original authors get credit."

...............................

"Glad people can see the truth. Personally, I think he copied passages to use as teaching material, but did not cite his sources. Of course, his books were published after his death."

................................

"People know that Tao of JKD were notes - all done without citations. There were whole passages taken out of numerous texts like Edwin Haislet's Boxing book, books on fencing, judo, self defense, DT Suzuki, Zen classics, etc. People who never read such an assortment of books on Zen and Fighting arts would be amazed that he had such insight and originality, but many concepts were, of course, drawn from various sources.

Funny thing, it is said, 'If you copy from one, it is plagurism; but if you copy from many, it is called scholarship.' "

.................................

***WOW !!! :rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

Listen folks, the man made a bunch of notes that were a collection of what he read in various books and mixed and matched with many of his own thoughts and analysis.

So? :confused:

There's a problem with this? :rolleyes:

THIS IS THE WAY ANYBODY WORTH HIS SALT ATTACKS AN ISSUE - as a means of trying to gain knowledge from previous teachings while simultaneously trying to be individually creative at the same time.

[chusauli]

No issue, Victor. Many people do that.

I think the public is realizing is that the Tao of JKD was essentially a work without citations and really not meant for publication. The ones who published this posthumous work should have given credit where credit is due - not deliberately not credit others' work and pass them off as original thought of Bruce Lee. I think that is the issue of copyright. Again, I am not a lawyer, but as a writer, I have a little knowledge of copyright law.

When one writes a book or article or column or anything, people need to cite sources. For example, since I wrote upon body structure early on, it has become a buzzword in the WCK community, and suddenly people who have no body structure (or at least the way I teach it) all say they have the same thing. I didn't get citations in other martial arts publications, except for one article on kendo. Heck, when I wrote the 4 part Bruce Lee series, Hawkins got credit for the writing, not me, but clearly they were written by me. That is a HUGE issue in the USA.

When you write articles Victor, you will see.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have written a long article, in fact, Robert. About Traditional Wing Chun. And it's on line right here: www.wingchunpedia.org

(Then click "LINEAGES"....and then click "WILLIAM CHEUNG TWC LINEAGE")

The website is the brainchild of Brian Scanlon, who used to post here (as Beyond1) quite often in fact, before you started posting...when, a couple of years ago? But go back to the archives at this website and you'll find that Brian posted quite a bit 3-4-5-6-7 years ago.

And as for "body structure", I must tell you that I find it a bit amazing that you claim to have come up with something (is that what you're claiming?) that wasn't always part of wing chun.

I've seen some of your articles, and I've seen some of Alan Orr's stuff about the same subject - and I can't really say that there's anything there that wasn't taught by both my wing chun instructors, William Cheung and Moy Yat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't your first wing chun (ving tsun) instructor Moy Yat's student, Douglas Lee (also known as Lee Moy Shan within Moy Yat's circles)...???

But anyway, after reading your last post I now get the distinct impression that your criticisms about Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do are more about the recognition that Robert Chu thinks he should have gotten than it is about anything concerning Bruce Lee.

And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that, too, if you wish.

But that is how you appear to be coming off, I must tell you.

But as for Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do, which is what I thought this thread was about - I stand by the basic premises of everything I've said so far:

He was a very accomplished fighter/martial artist who did a great deal for today's wing chun and for today's mma movement.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Check this out, currently a thread on mma.tv


http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.frame&thread=1460430&page=1

[Wu Wei Wu]

On History Channel Sunday 17 May 2009:

How Bruce Lee Changed the World:

Bruce Lee is universally recognized for prying open the doors of ancient Chinese martial arts to the mass market. The history of Lee's life, and death at the age of only 32, is shrouded in mystery, but his influence on popular culture continues to be felt today. This special pieces together rare family archival footage owned by the Bruce Lee Foundation, together with in-depth interviews with individuals who have cited inspiration from Lee. Viewers will journey across the US, Asia and Europe exploring Lee's influence on popular culture worldwide--even joining Shannon Lee on a trip back to her father's roots in Hong Kong; nearly fifty years after Lee arrived to make his first kung fu film. Also features in-depth interviews with actor Jackie Chan, comedian Eddie Griffin, rappers LL Cool J and RZA, Marvel Comics' Stan Lee, and renowned film directors John Woo and Brett Ratner. Lee's friend and business partner famed Hong Kong film producer, Raymond Chow gives a rare interview.

[chusauli]

And as for "body structure", I must tell you that I find it a bit amazing that you claim to have come up with something (is that what you're claiming?) that wasn't always part of wing chun.

I've seen some of your articles, and I've seen some of Alan Orr's stuff about the same subject - and I can't really say that there's anything there that wasn't taught by both my wing chun instructors, William Cheung and Moy Yat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't your first wing chun (ving tsun) instructor Moy Yat's student, Douglas Lee (also known as Lee Moy Shan within Moy Yat's circles)...???

But anyway, after reading your last post I now get the distinct impression that your criticisms about Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do are more about the recognition that Robert Chu thinks he should have gotten than it is about anything concerning Bruce Lee.

And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that, too, if you wish.

But that is how you appear to be coming off, I must tell you.

But as for Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do, which is what I thought this thread was about - I stand by the basic premises of everything I've said so far:

He was a very accomplished fighter/martial artist who did a great deal for today's wing chun and for today's mma movement.


Hi Victor,

Many thanks for your contributions and article.

Yes, I was Douglas Lee's student at a time.

My digression was about citations really. My thought is those who published the Tao of JKD did not properly cite references, or did not know adequately whom to cite, that's all.

Although I agree some body teachings may be a part of the WCK as taught by TWC and MY lineages, we are not discussing the same thing. It is taught differenty in my approach, also having some exposure to TWC and MY branches. We are old acquantances and we can always meet sometime.

If you look at early WCK writings in English, few coined and used the term as I have. I am not discussing form - I am discussing specific mechanics and physical alignment. We can alway start a new thread.

I do agree completely with you, that Bruce was an accomplished fighter/martial artist who did a great deal for today's wing chun and for today's mma movement.

Best regards,

[Vajramusti]

1.I enjoyed reading The Tao of Wing Chun...but always regarded it as a collection of notes and an example of Bruce Lee's considerable curiosities.The book was published after his death so issues of citations do not apply to BL's personal notes.

2. I began wing chun in 1976. I have had good exposure to other martial activities before and after 1976 but wing chun defines my martial perspective.

3. I have never been into TWC, or Moy Yat's or Leung Ting's wing chun.There is no uniform cookie cutter used across lineages or versions of wing chun. WC is a very diverse world.

4. Good teachers have their own unique approaches to details.

5. I have had only one sifu- Augustine Fong of Tucson.

6. Students in most lineages can vary in their exposure to their teacher in terms of regularity, duration, corrections, frequency of training, experience and other things.

7. REGULAR students of my sifu were corrected on the stability of their structure as long as I have
known him. Fong sifu's early students including Danny Chan, Nancy MacDonald and Dan Maricich knew what good structure was.Sigung Ho Kam Ming was also known for the stability of his structure. The understanding of occasional visitors or students can vary in a similar manner to auditors of courses of study. Student notes can vary widely in a course of study- because of the variables in student perceptions of what takes place.

8. I have always regarded structure as being a very important DEVELOPMENTAL tool in wing chun- but I dont think that anyone including myself has a monopoly on the usage of the term.
There is bound to be differences in details in the usage of the term.
No personal criticism of anyone intended.

Cheers and good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

On History Channel Sunday 17 May 2009:

How Bruce Lee Changed the World:

Bruce Lee is universally recognized for prying open the doors of ancient Chinese martial arts to the mass market. The history of Lee's life, and death at the age of only 32, is shrouded in mystery, but his influence on popular culture continues to be felt today. This special pieces together rare family archival footage owned by the Bruce Lee Foundation, together with in-depth interviews with individuals who have cited inspiration from Lee. Viewers will journey across the US, Asia and Europe exploring Lee's influence on popular culture worldwide--even joining Shannon Lee on a trip back to her father's roots in Hong Kong; nearly fifty years after Lee arrived to make his first kung fu film. Also features in-depth interviews with actor Jackie Chan, comedian Eddie Griffin, rappers LL Cool J and RZA, Marvel Comics' Stan Lee, and renowned film directors John Woo and Brett Ratner. Lee's friend and business partner famed Hong Kong film producer, Raymond Chow gives a rare interview.


***WATCHED it last night. Fascinating documentary. Amazing how many people from all over the world were heavily influenced by Bruce Lee, and from so many different fields, ie.- martial arts, movie making producing and filming concepts, hip hop and other types of music, advertising, various other sports, body building, break dancing and it's various offshoots, etc...

and some good sparring/workout/drilling clips from two different JKD schools, one in Hong Kong, the other in Scotland. Particularly impressed by a guy named Tommy Carruthers, a student of Ted Wong, and Tommy's school in Scotland.

And several mma UFC trainers and fighters talking about how Bruce's training methods, techniques, conditioning, nutrition, overall philosophy, and crosstraining ideas have greatly influenced today's mma world.

And then there was Sugar Ray Leonard, arguably one of the greatest boxers of all time, talking about how much he admired Bruce Lee's ability to generate punches with power from close range.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Victor,

I missed the show, but FWIW, Tommy Carruthers has also spent time with my Non-Classical Gung Fu teacher, Jesse Glover.

Suki

[Ultimatewingchun]

I still have several of Jesse Glover's books on JKD. Bought them, God, it must be over 30 years ago. He was Bruce's first American student, if I remember correctly, and was located in Seattle.

[Yoshiyahu]

I still have several of Jesse Glover's books on JKD. Bought them, God, it must be over 30 years ago. He was Bruce's first American student, if I remember correctly, and was located in Seattle.

Didn't Jesse Glover get beat up by a MMA guy?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Yoshiyahu,

I think you are confusing Jesse with someone else.

Suki

[Yoshiyahu]

Maybe so...I may have to look it up?



Yoshiyahu,

I think you are confusing Jesse with someone else.

Suki

[anerlich]

Maybe so...I may have to look it up?


What do you want, the Pope's blessing?

There is a very good submission grappler called Jeff Glover. Maybe you are confusing Jesse Glover with him. Or maybe not, how would I know?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Here are some clips of Jesse. He is in his mid-70's;

http://www.woma.tv/search/for/video.html?search_query=jesse+glover

Suki

[Yoshiyahu]

I saw somewhere on the net one Jun Fan's students doing terrible in MMA. I dont remember who though...



Here are some clips of Jesse. He is in his mid-70's;

http://www.woma.tv/search/for/video.html?search_query=jesse+glover

Suki

[Kevin73]

I saw somewhere on the net one Jun Fan's students doing terrible in MMA. I dont remember who though...


I know that there was a JKD team in the early Internationals put on by Ed Parker and that it was the first and last time they brought a team they did so bad. JKD has never put out a good fighter.

I'm also not referring to gyms like Matt Thorton's who teaches MMA and calls it JKD.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Matt Thornton never trained under a JKD instructor? Ever?

Then why did he call his place the "Straight-blast Gym"?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm also not referring to gyms like Matt Thorton's who teaches MMA and calls it JKD.

I'll let Matt know what you think of his JKD :)
MMA = JKD just as JKD =MMA, always has been, probably always will be that way.

[Ultimatewingchun]

MMA = JKD

JKD = MMA

I like your algebra, sanjuro. :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA = JKD

JKD = MMA

I like your algebra, sanjuro. :cool:

I don't know what is more surprising, that people comment on stuff they don't know much about, or that I am still surprised how people comment on stuff they don't know much about !
LOL !

[t_niehoff]

Matt Thornton never trained under a JKD instructor? Ever?

Then why did he call his place the "Straight-blast Gym"?

As I understand it, Thornton originally was a boxer (and was a sparring partner for some heavyweight contenders/champions) but then trained with Paul Vunak in JKD. He seems to have embraced Bruce's "philosophy" of fighting/training, focusing on aliveness, fitting in at any range, etc. It was Paul who introduced him to BJJ, advising him to attend a Rickson seminar.

Thornton's DVDs are called "Functional JKD" (Series 1, 2, and 3). His approach to JKD is not to try and be a Bruce Lee clone (like so many others) or to stick with a curriculum from the 70s but to continually try to find the best ways to train and fight at any range-- which could be argued was Bruce's objective.

[m1k3]

Shouldn't all martial arts, if their being trained correctly, be MMA? :confused:

[t_niehoff]

Shouldn't all martial arts, if their being trained correctly, be MMA? :confused:

Not necessarily.

Someone can do boxing or judo or BJJ or WCK for its own sake. They can get many benefits from that training.

However, if someone wants to develop a well-rounded ability to fight, that means they need to be able to fight in stand-up, in clinch, and on the ground. Fighting -- when going all-out, 100%, is going to "look" like MMA. The question is whether what you are training and how you are training is preparing you for that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

As I understand it, Thornton originally was a boxer (and was a sparring partner for some heavyweight contenders/champions) but then trained with Paul Vunak in JKD. He seems to have embraced Bruce's "philosophy" of fighting/training, focusing on aliveness, fitting in at any range, etc. It was Paul who introduced him to BJJ, advising him to attend a Rickson seminar.

Thornton's DVDs are called "Functional JKD" (Series 1, 2, and 3). His approach to JKD is not to try and be a Bruce Lee clone (like so many others) or to stick with a curriculum from the 70s but to continually try to find the best ways to train and fight at any range-- which could be argued was Bruce's objective.


***THIS is undoubtedly your best post in years! :cool:

[taojkd]

Thornton's DVDs are called "Functional JKD" (Series 1, 2, and 3). His approach to JKD is not to try and be a Bruce Lee clone (like so many others) or to stick with a curriculum from the 70s but to continually try to find the best ways to train and fight at any range-- which could be argued was Bruce's objective.

JKD is not MMA. MMA is a sport and JKD is a process of discovery of finding the best ways to train and fight at any range, including knife/stick/gun etc FOR YOU!! Thorton is doing what bruce was doing. Also why i like my WC, but train at an MMA school. WC provides a good foundation, but MMA provides a good lab to test.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Also a good post. :)

[anerlich]

JKD has never put out a good fighter.

I'm also not referring to gyms like Matt Thorton's who teaches MMA and calls it JKD.


Forrest Griffin hails originally from the Hardcore Gym which is an affiliate of Matt Thornton's. Other guys in those circles have been involved with Team Quest and the like. They're pretty good fighters, unless your "good fighters" only participate in underground death matches and imiaginary street fights.

IMO MT's philosophy is a lot closer to what I understand the original philosophy of JKD to be. The fact that what they do is principally based on boxing, wrestling, and BJJ, is about as relevant as that of Dan Inosanto (another BJJBB) and Paul Vunak and their employiment of FMA, to the incorrect statement of "that's not JKD!"

The world's moved on, Kevin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

JKD is not MMA. MMA is a sport and JKD is a process of discovery of finding the best ways to train and fight at any range, including knife/stick/gun etc FOR YOU!! Thorton is doing what bruce was doing. Also why i like my WC, but train at an MMA school. WC provides a good foundation, but MMA provides a good lab to test.

Not to be picky but, MMA has BECOME a sport, before that it was a term used to describe the "cross traning and integration" of various systems that complemented each other to develop an all around fighter, which was also how JKD was "defined".
Nowadays though, you are correct in saying that MMA is the name for the sport, that is why many, like me, don't use it anymore to describe what we do.

[t_niehoff]

I know that there was a JKD team in the early Internationals put on by Ed Parker and that it was the first and last time they brought a team they did so bad. JKD has never put out a good fighter.

I'm also not referring to gyms like Matt Thorton's who teaches MMA and calls it JKD.


You may want to ask yourself why "classical" JKD hasn't produced anyone with solid, proven fighting skills. I submit the answer is that they, unlike Thornton and his group, (1) don't train like modern fighters, and (2) they don't get out and mix it up with good, proven fighters to see for themselves what really works and what doesn't. Those two aspects drive the evolution of a MA. Thornton's JKD has evolved. The rest of them are trying, as Nerlich has suggested, to capture the past.

[Kevin73]

Forrest Griffin hails originally from the Hardcore Gym which is an affiliate of Matt Thornton's. Other guys in those circles have been involved with Team Quest and the like. They're pretty good fighters, unless your "good fighters" only participate in underground death matches and imiaginary street fights.

IMO MT's philosophy is a lot closer to what I understand the original philosophy of JKD to be. The fact that what they do is principally based on boxing, wrestling, and BJJ, is about as relevant as that of Dan Inosanto (another BJJBB) and Paul Vunak and their employiment of FMA, to the incorrect statement of "that's not JKD!"

The world's moved on, Kevin.


You may want to ask yourself why "classical" JKD hasn't produced anyone with solid, proven fighting skills. I submit the answer is that they, unlike Thornton and his group, (1) don't train like modern fighters, and (2) they don't get out and mix it up with good, proven fighters to see for themselves what really works and what doesn't. Those two aspects drive the evolution of a MA. Thornton's JKD has evolved. The rest of them are trying, as Nerlich has suggested, to capture the past.

Look at the topic of this thread, it IS talking about "Classical JKD" and why WCists always cite Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee taught JKD as both an expression and as a style (whether or not you want to play the semantics game of whether it was or not). He had a set curriculum and lesson plan for the students to learn and definate concepts that were taught as a part of that.

So by your definitions, anyone who combines what they feel are the best arts to deal with the ranges and makes it into their own approach is now doing Jeet Kune Do and you call it that?

I have Matt Thorton's stuff and think he is a great MAist, but I don't think his gym is representative of how people view JKD as a whole. There are many martial artists that find their own way using their base style and add to it to fill gaps or more effective ways of doing things, but it doesn't make it JKD.

As one old time MAist put it who was around and traveled the same circles as Bruce Lee. Putting the name on the door brings in money.

[anerlich]

I have Matt Thorton's stuff and think he is a great MAist, but I don't think his gym is representative of how people view JKD as a whole.

As one old time MAist put it who was around and traveled the same circles as Bruce Lee. Putting the name on the door brings in money.


No argument there.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've been watching and re-watching the Bruce Lee documentary over the last few days since I've promised a bunch of students and friends that I would make them a copy (I taped the doc when it was first shown last Sunday).

More convinced than ever that Bruce Lee was THE consummate martial artist of his day - and that his day extends right into this day.

If he were 30 years old right now, I think that, given his total focus on doing what's real and always looking to improve on what he did yesterday...

that he would be a mix of some sort of Bruce Lee from the early 70's...Kazushi Sakuraba from the late 1990's-early 2000's...and a contemporary Georges St. Pierre type.....SUPER FIGHTER.

Period.

In essence, I guess what I'm saying is that all of the best martial artists/fighters/mma guys of today are all doing some form of Jeet Kune Do...whether they realize it...(or care to realize it :rolleyes:)...or not.

It doesn't matter what you call it: if you're devoted to crosstraining with an open mind, are incorporating serious contact sparring (and rolling), using lots of training equipment to hone your attributes and your functional strength, power, and speed; and then constantly pressure test what you do in order to always get better and learn more....

than Bruce Lee's JKD has been a MAJOR influence upon you.

[Pacman]

i dont think bruce lee was the first to mix different martial arts styles into a new style or to learn and master multiple styles.

choi lei fut is a mix of three different styles
wu zu quan is a mix of five different styles
wing chun itself is a mix of different styles




I've been watching and re-watching the Bruce Lee documentary over the last few days since I've promised a bunch of students and friends that I would make them a copy (I taped the doc when it was first shown last Sunday).

More convinced than ever that Bruce Lee was THE consummate martial artist of his day - and that his day extends right into this day.

If he were 30 years old right now, I think that, given his total focus on doing what's real and always looking to improve on what he did yesterday...

that he would be a mix of some sort of Bruce Lee from the early 70's...Kazushi Sakuraba from the late 1990's-early 2000's...and a contemporary Fedor Emeliananko type.....SUPER FIGHTER.

Period.

In essence, I guess what I'm saying is that all of the best martial artists/fighters/mma guys of today are all doing some form of Jeet Kune Do...whether they realize it...(or care to realize it :rolleyes:)...or not.

It doesn't matter what you call it: if you're devoted to crosstraining with an open mind, are incorporating serious contact sparring (and rolling), using lots of training equipment to hone your attributes and your functional strength, power, and speed; and then constantly pressure test what you do in order to always get better and learn more....

than Bruce Lee's JKD has been a MAJOR influence upon you.

[chusauli]

Chinese martial arts, in general, are mixed martial arts - you learn striking, kicking, grappling, throwing, jointlocking, pins, escorts, bladed weapons, short weapons, long weapons, etc.

Pankration was practiced way back and incorporated all types of strikes, kicks, throws and wrestling.

Indian Kalarippayattu was also a martial art that had strikes, kicks, throws, joint locks and weaponry.

Samurai learned multiple martial arts, as did ninja.

All great cultures learned and combined many methods.

Bruce was great, but not the first. He might be an inspiration to some, but his ideas were hardly original.

[AdrianK]

i dont think bruce lee was the first to mix different martial arts styles into a new style or to learn and master multiple styles.

Ya know, Jeet Kune Do is about a thousand times deeper than simply mixing martial arts styles.

Its about looking at things from a less conventional perspective, devoting yourself to testing your craft and constantly refining by adapting things to work for you and discarding things that don't.

Its about looking at the martial arts in a very different way of how they are conventionally looked at.

What I mean is this - The convention is that learning style means expressing style through your person. JKD is learning to express yourself as a person, with no stylistic boundries. No more, this is wing chun, and that is choy lay fut, even if we put them together they are wing chun + choy lay fut? No. Its all one singular expression with no imaginary walls, no "this is where wing chun ends and this is where choy lay fut begins".

This is very hard for some people to grasp because the sum of what they believe to be their systems, is that for instance to do wing chun, they expect that you must be in this stance, and do this pivoting or this particular stepping, and do this movement, for it to be wing chun.

When in reality, the concepts are applicable to an infinite number of positions, footworks, etc. - And so when you look at things conceptually, they become all as one, with no boundries, and finally you may express yourself as a human artist, in an honest way.

At least, that's my interpretation of it.

I should say that the sad thing is that as martial artists, the community has learned nothing from other artistic or scientific pursuits. If they had, they'd of come to the same conclusions as Bruce did, many years ago. And indeed, many people have, Bruce was not the first and he won't be the last, but unfortunately the vast majority of the martial arts world is still in the stone age with no understanding of the importance of art and science, to the martial arts.



Bruce was great, but not the first. He might be an inspiration to some, but his ideas were hardly original.

I agree Sifu Chu, I would say the ideas he expressed are as old as the beginnings of philosophy, scientific understanding and artistic expression, however many thousands of years ago :D

[Hendrik]

i dont think bruce lee was the first to mix different martial arts styles into a new style or to learn and master multiple styles.

choi lei fut is a mix of three different styles
wu zu quan is a mix of five different styles
wing chun itself is a mix of different styles



There is a big different between a MIX and a Fusion of two styles.

MIX is just cut and paste addition of two type characteristic.

Fusion is evolving into a different art which have a third type of characteristic.

[goju]

bruce lee never said wing chun was ineffective in fact its obvious its the foundation of jkd people like ted wong who claim he abandoned it are just talking out of there holes

[goju]

oh and i hate those guys with their functional jeet kune do or jeet kune do concepts etc etc all they are doing is ruining bruces art

[Ultimatewingchun]

Another excellent post, Adrian. But what many people fail to realize is that, although so many of his ideas are very "old" - his expression and interpretation of those ideas was quite modern in the early 1970's.

In other words, he had the deep insight along with enormous amounts of drive and intensity of purpose to bring old ideas into the modern age...

and did it in a way that was intelligible to the world of 1968-69-70-71-72-73...

because his relentless and profound 24/7...365 days-per-year commitment to what he was doing brought his understanding of old ideas and concepts to a NEW HEIGHT.

Just look at the examples, ie.- what he did with the nunchakas, with applying boxing footwork, concepts, and techniques to oriental martial arts, how he incorporated wing chun into this more fluid expression of a delivery system to infighting technique...

how he gave some fencing footwork and concepts a new life within empty hand combat, how he revolutionized body building concepts into "functional" martial art combat...(and some top weight-lifters/body builders including Arnold Schwarzenegger credit him in the documentary)...

how he revolutionized the use of protective gear as a part of oriental martial art training and full contact sparring...

his use of electrical impulses were also discussed in the documentary - and how that was a pre-cursor to what goes on in the sports medicine community today...

how he made protein shakes a part of the whole training/nutritional process, etc.

And of course, as you pointed out, his insistance that you, the individual, must make your own expression of yourself in movement the cornerstone of what you do with your martial arts training was phenomenally "new" for the time. You must express who you are - not what your "style" or your sensei, or your sifu say you must be.

THIS IS INDEED THE "SPIRAL" that all the great philosophers, scientists, and meta-physicians refer to when they describe the true meaning of human progress and evolution.

THE MAN WAS A MARTIAL ARTS GENIUS.



Ya know, Jeet Kune Do is about a thousand times deeper than simply mixing martial arts styles.

Its about looking at things from a less conventional perspective, devoting yourself to testing your craft and constantly refining by adapting things to work for you and discarding things that don't.

Its about looking at the martial arts in a very different way of how they are conventionally looked at.

What I mean is this - The convention is that learning style means expressing style through your person. JKD is learning to express yourself as a person, with no stylistic boundries. No more, this is wing chun, and that is choy lay fut, even if we put them together they are wing chun + choy lay fut? No. Its all one singular expression with no imaginary walls, no "this is where wing chun ends and this is where choy lay fut begins".

This is very hard for some people to grasp because the sum of what they believe to be their systems, is that for instance to do wing chun, they expect that you must be in this stance, and do this pivoting or this particular stepping, and do this movement, for it to be wing chun.

When in reality, the concepts are applicable to an infinite number of positions, footworks, etc. - And so when you look at things conceptually, they become all as one, with no boundries, and finally you may express yourself as a human artist, in an honest way.

At least, that's my interpretation of it.

I should say that the sad thing is that as martial artists, the community has learned nothing from other artistic or scientific pursuits. If they had, they'd of come to the same conclusions as Bruce did, many years ago. And indeed, many people have, Bruce was not the first and he won't be the last, but unfortunately the vast majority of the martial arts world is still in the stone age with no understanding of the importance of art and science, to the martial arts.




I agree Sifu Chu, I would say the ideas he expressed are as old as the beginnings of philosophy, scientific understanding and artistic expression, however many thousands of years ago :D

[TenTigers]

Sifu Chu would enjoy this-
When I was training regularly with Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming, he demonstrated a technique, and I said something like,"Oh, did that strike come from Hsing-Yi?"

His reply was that "Technique is technique-no one style owns a technique, or concept. These are universal. When you realize this, you won't be bound by styles. They are simply tools." (words I find myself saying constantly)
I still hear JKD guys saying things like, "I'll enter with a Muay Thai teep, and then do a Kali gunting, into Wing Chun trapping range...etc"

[AdrianK]

Thank you Sifu Parlati. Excellent post as well, Bruce was indeed a very unique, extremely intelligent individual... I've been involved in kung fu for almost a decade now and martial arts all of my life, and yet I rarely come across anyone who even begins to understand his the ideas he very clearly understood.

It could be argued that nothing can be attributed to the individual, because it is our experiences with the world around us that shape us into who we are... and by that I mean, for people to look at his knowledge as merely the result of other individuals teachings, is a very silly thing to do. Its like saying, well a doctorate means nothing because you simply learned what other people taught.. but the fact that bruce learned these things and made them his own. The fact that he was not only so dedicated to learning and training, but was so intelligent a person to express these ideas as his own, and all of the other things you mentioned already that he was responsible for, really show how incredible of an individual he was.

And even if detractors say, his ideas were dumb, or whatever such non-sense, his extreme dedication to martial arts, as shown by his body and physical abilities, are enough on their own to give the man the utmost respect.

Nowadays martial artists are encouraged a bit more to think outside the box, with so much martial arts available to train, and with the MMA craze, Its always interesting that for all of Bruce's popularity, the man is dead and being slandered by an anti-bruce mentality as well. I've met many kung fu practictioners that flat out say Bruce lee "sucked", and yet they never knew the man, and understand so very little about him.



Another excellent post, Adrian. But what many people fail to realize is that, although so many of his ideas are very "old" - his expression and interpretation of those ideas was quite modern in the early 1970's.

In other words, he had the deep insight along with enormous amounts of drive and intensity of purpose to bring old ideas into the modern age...

and did it in a way that was intelligible to the world of 1968-69-70-71-72-73...

because his relentless and profound 24/7...365 days-per-year commitment to what he was doing brought his understanding of old ideas and concepts to a NEW HEIGHT.

Just look at the examples, ie.- what he did with the nunchakas, with applying boxing footwork, concepts, and techniques to oriental martial arts, how he incorporated wing chun into this more fluid expression of a delivery system to infighting technique...

how he gave some fencing footwork and concepts a new life within empty hand combat, how he revolutionized body building concepts into "functional" martial art combat...(and some top weight-lifters/body builders including Arnold Schwarzenegger credit him in the documentary)...

how he revolutionized the use of protective gear as a part of oriental martial art training and full contact sparring...

his use of electrical impulses were also discussed in the documentary - and how that was a pre-cursor to what goes on in the sports medicine community today...

how he made protein shakes a part of the whole training/nutritional process, etc.

And of course, as you pointed out, his insistance that you, the individual, must make your own expression of yourself in movement the cornerstone of what you do with your martial arts training was phenomenally "new" for the time. You must express who you are - not what your "style" or your sensei, or your sifu say you must be.

THIS IS INDEED THE "SPIRAL" that all the great philosophers, scientists, and meta-physicians refer to when they describe the true meaning of human progress and evolution.

THE MAN WAS A MARTIAL ARTS GENIUS.

[AdrianK]

I still hear JKD guys saying things like, "I'll enter with a Muay Thai teep, and then do a Kali gunting, into Wing Chun trapping range...etc"

Yeah I always roll my eyes at that too :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...for people to look at his (Bruce Lee's) knowledge as merely the result of other individuals teachings, is a very silly thing to do. Its like saying, well a doctorate means nothing because you simply learned what other people taught.. but the fact is that Bruce learned these things and made them his own." (Adrian)


***EXACTLY.


Quite frankly, Adrian, I am amazed at how many people just don't get that, and it makes me think that there are other motives at work when I see it...

people are jealous, they want to push their own agenda (or "brand" name, ie.- something other than "jeet kune do")...

or perhaps there are other reasons: racial, cultural, or whatever.

But any serious examination with an open mind of what BL did and how he went about it has to come to the conclusion that he was truly a martial art icon....a MASTER of martial arts....not just some "movie star".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sifu Chu would enjoy this-
When I was training regularly with Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming, he demonstrated a technique, and I said something like,"Oh, did that strike come from Hsing-Yi?"

His reply was that "Technique is technique-no one style owns a technique, or concept. These are universal. When you realize this, you won't be bound by styles. They are simply tools." (words I find myself saying constantly)
I still hear JKD guys saying things like, "I'll enter with a Muay Thai teep, and then do a Kali gunting, into Wing Chun trapping range...etc"

Someone has JKD'D the correct :D

[Ali. R]

There are over four systems that he trained in and he never completed one of them:

(wing chun) the highest level that he trained in was chum kil, 2nd level out of six.

(Jun Fan Kung Fu) all basic understandings from the wing chun system, in which he never finished or completed.

(Jeet Kune Do) a system that he very much said himself “is not complete”.

Just because one slaps a label of justification on something that they brought forth as authentic or the best, doesn’t make it so…

Especially with the lack of knowledge he had of the system (wing chun)…

Now imagine if he had a roll with ‘Helio Gracie’, or had a boxing match with ‘Suger Ray Robinson’, it would have shown how much of his fundamentals would really stand up to the arts that he knocked and tought at the same time…

Which is all of them really, becaues he felt that they all needed to be supplemented to work…

Hence his-own art based from other arts (JKD). To the untrained and star struck mind = $$$$$$$$ for Master Lee, considering that is what most called him in which he was (in his own beliefs)…

There’s nothing wrong with what he did or invented, because most can only work from cliff notes or short cuts anyway…


Ali Rahim.

[Violent Designs]

Sifu Chu would enjoy this-
When I was training regularly with Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming, he demonstrated a technique, and I said something like,"Oh, did that strike come from Hsing-Yi?"

His reply was that "Technique is technique-no one style owns a technique, or concept. These are universal. When you realize this, you won't be bound by styles. They are simply tools." (words I find myself saying constantly)
I still hear JKD guys saying things like, "I'll enter with a Muay Thai teep, and then do a Kali gunting, into Wing Chun trapping range...etc"

Hey TenTigers, excellent point.

This is EXACTLY what I saw with my own eyes, when I went to check out Inosanto's school here in Los Angeles.

[goju]

oh come on helio gracie or sugar ray lmao bruce would have killed either one of them at least give hima worthy oppponent first


and bruce had an exensive backround in judo from training with gene lebell
lol im just picturing helio even trying to take bruce down

[chusauli]

Sifu Chu would enjoy this-
When I was training regularly with Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming, he demonstrated a technique, and I said something like,"Oh, did that strike come from Hsing-Yi?"

His reply was that "Technique is technique-no one style owns a technique, or concept. These are universal. When you realize this, you won't be bound by styles. They are simply tools." (words I find myself saying constantly)
I still hear JKD guys saying things like, "I'll enter with a Muay Thai teep, and then do a Kali gunting, into Wing Chun trapping range...etc"

Rik,

Tsang Sifu and I shared many insights and thoughts like that over the years. :)

In the end, when you own what you do, its yours.

You are not supposed to carry this or that art. The art was there to bridge ignorance to wisdom.

Best regards,

[Ali. R]

"oh come on helio gracie or sugar ray lmao bruce would have killed either one of them at least give hima worthy oppponent first"...


And here’s Bruce Lee playing ping pong lol…

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video640.php?v=wshhdbh0T2Yz27h205LD&set_size=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwSojMm0lA0

LOL,,, LOL.


Ali Rahim.

[goju]

lmao i laughed my self so bad when i first saw that clip!

[Ali. R]

Rik,

Tsang Sifu and I shared many insights and thoughts like that over the years. :)

In the end, when you own what you do, its yours.

You are not supposed to carry this or that art. The art was there to bridge ignorance to wisdom.

Best regards,

I like that statement, but when someone claims that an art doesn’t work, as one only trained very limitedly in that art, that is not wisdom but a flat out lie, outright; and it only means that it doesn’t work for that individual…

All arts must be respected, and as for the tone of wisdom; it’s nothing more then a necessity developed freely by the practitioner, meaning it’s not the art but the individual…

again great post,


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

:...I still hear JKD guys saying things like, "I'll enter with a Muay Thai teep, and then do a Kali gunting, into Wing Chun trapping range...etc"


***ALWAYS amazed when I hear this kind of thing also. Assuming that Ten Tigers means this as some sort of criticism of JKD, which I believe is how he indeed meant it.

Because it's a complete misunderstanding of the process that is required to actually crosstrain successfully and make what you learn your own.

To start, here's some quotes from Bruce Lee's TAO OF JEET KUNE DO:

"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just a punch, a kick was just a kick. After I studied the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick."

"There are styles that favor straight lines, then there are styles that favor curved lines and circles. Styles that cling to one partial aspect of combat are in bondage....A choice method, however exacting, fixes its practitioner into a pattern. Combat is never fixed and is changing from moment to moment. Working in patterns is basically a practice of resistance. Such practice leads to clogginess; understanding is not possible and its adherents are never free."

"You cannont see a street fight in its totality, observing it from the point of view of a boxer, a kung-fu man, a karateka, a wrestler, a judo man and so forth. You can see clearly only when style does not interfere. You then see it without 'like' or 'dislike', you simply see and what you see is the whole and not the partial."

.............................................

But in the same book we find page-after-page-after-page wherein he has drawings, descriptions, and long analysis of moves that come from boxing, savate, wrestling, judo, hapkido, karate, etc.

SO WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU ?

Quite simply this: That in order to get to the point where you no longer have to think anymore about what to do at any given moment in a fight, or a sparring match, or a rolling match, etc...

YOU HAVE TO FIRST BREAK DOWN THE MOVES COMPARTMENTALLY...as Bruce did in all those pages examining the various arts.

And then work with those moves endlessly - until they become so much a part of your muscle memory and your inner consciousness - that you no longer have to think about where each individual move may have originally come from consciously - it just comes out when you need it.

But to expect Bruce Lee's JKD students and grand-students of today to be able to do that kind of thing at a high level is a bit much - because they're not Bruce Lee.

Who is actually doing martial arts 24/7.....365 days per year ??? And who amoungst them has the natural skills and ability that Bruce Lee had?

Some of today's mma fighters do spend enormous amounts of time training, sparring, etc. - and these are the folks who can come closest to doing this kind of thing.

Kazushi Sakuraba comes quickly to mind, (although he's not the only one). But with Sak, you never knew what he was going to do next - the IT within seemed to just take over and he would go wherever it took him.

AND THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE TRUE MASTERY OF MARTIAL ARTS THAT BRUCE LEE HAD.

And where he was pointing to as a place martial artists should go. Sakuraba got there. And there were/are others as well.

[Ali. R]

"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just a punch, a kick was just a kick. After I studied the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick."

While taking elements that already existed and blending them within their own methodical approach, some even thought Charles Manson was Jesus Christ…

Even so, well after his incarceration...


Ali Rahim.

[TenTigers]

Hi Victor,
I wasn't criticizing JKD, just many of the JKD people I've been in contact with.
I have a high regard for Bruce Lee's self-discovery of Mo-Wai, and his method for achieving it. And although MMA is not a new concept, I feel he broke barriers that were recently put in place by MA practitioners, in the past several generations.
People that tried to rigidly adhere to their art with blinders on, and limiting themselves, rather than using it as a method to expand their experience and knowledge.
Bruce Lee continues to be an inspiration.


(off topic)
I was just watching "The Big Boss," and noticing they used, Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon," and King Crimson's "Red" in their soundtrack. Cool!:cool:

[Ali. R]

I have no respect for anyone that needs to tear something or someone down to come off more effective in his or her own beliefs, and I will not disrespect those that do…

All I’m saying is that the system of wing chun is now very much more available to the average person, as for ‘Bruce Lee’ it wasn’t…

And now more have this knowledge of wing chun, because it’s very much so assessable to those that really want it; and all one have to do is some simple research (if one have well over 10 years of wing chun, give or take a few), they could easily see why ‘Bruce Lee’ was frustrated or even non-tolerant of the wing chun system when it was no longer available within his short time of studying it.

I’m sure that half of the people here have more understanding of the art then Bruce Lee did (wing chun), and would be more qualified to make such a statement, in which he did…

“Wing Chun Kung Fu is not that affective”…

And if you believe that, then I have a whole lot of sh*t that I can tell you…


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hi Victor,
I wasn't criticizing JKD, just many of the JKD people I've been in contact with.
I have a high regard for Bruce Lee's self-discovery of Mo-Wai, and his method for achieving it. And although MMA is not a new concept, I feel he broke barriers that were recently put in place by MA practitioners, in the past several generations.
People that tried to rigidly adhere to their art with blinders on, and limiting themselves, rather than using it as a method to expand their experience and knowledge.
Bruce Lee continues to be an inspiration.


(off topic)
I was just watching "The Big Boss," and noticing they used, Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon," and King Crimson's "Red" in their soundtrack. Cool!:cool:


***COOL. I see where you're coming from.

[AdrianK]

I have no respect for anyone that needs to tear something or someone down to come off more effective in his or her own beliefs, and I will not disrespect those that do…

All I’m saying is that the system of wing chun is now very much more available to the average person, as for ‘Bruce Lee’ it wasn’t…

And now more have this knowledge of wing chun, because it’s very much so assessable to those that really want it; and all one have to do is some simple research (if one have well over 10 years of wing chun, give or take a few), they could easily see why ‘Bruce Lee’ was frustrated or even non-tolerant of the wing chun system when it was no longer available within his short time of studying it.

I’m sure that half of the people here have more understanding of the art then Bruce Lee did (wing chun), and would be more qualified to make such a statement, in which he did…

“Wing Chun Kung Fu is not that affective”…

And if you believe that, then I have a whole lot of sh*t that I can tell you…


Ali Rahim.

Effective.
You can make anyone strong in practically any kind of movement and prove its effectiveness in probably a dozen or more situations.

Effectiveness is strength, speed, timing, courage, and a host of other things before we get to the martial art portion of it.

I think people get stuck on effectiveness and forget that it is more about efficiency. Anyone can be effective doing practically [/b]anything[/b]. But what is efficient?

Is looking at the martial arts with stylistic constraints and boundries going to make you less effective in most situations? Nope. Is it going to make you less efficient? Absolutely.

Efficiency is based on the person. And while wing chun people by and large parade about how compact and efficient wing chun is, the templates/movements are limited by the mere fact that they're static representations.

Likewise, Style is limited in the fact that confining something to the idea of style is in fact, making it static.

The point is, Bruce Lee's frustration stemmed more from common martial arts philosophies on style, than it did from how effective he was in his system.

Regardless of what he knew about wing chun, even if he only knew the pak sao, he was so incredibly strong and fast that his effectiveness in situations was definitely not the main problem.


And the idea that Bruce didn't know enough wing chun to be able to say these things? Are you kidding me? Because he didn't learn Biu Jee, the weapons or the last 68 movements on the dummy? You don't think he trained and learned everything he could about every movement? Please.

This argument shows either you're grossly overstating the importance of a couple forms, don't understand the system, or both.

You do not need to learn a single wing chun form, to know wing chun. It is a series of templates and concepts, all of which are taught in drills and chi sao, and just as effectively as in the forms.

[Ali. R]

Bruce Lee is a actor and nothing more and he did not know wing chun… He is a traitor to his own wing chun family, while he turned his back on the pride of his people by using and featuring every art, but a Chinese martial art in his new found system…

Never once did he talk about wing chun in his publications, why? Because there were to many people that could call him a lie…

Bruce Lee was very disrespectful to over 90% of his classmate, in tern Yip Man didn’t want to have anything to do with him... Angry that Yip Man wouldn’t teach him and he wanted to let them know that he had no use for wing chun and other countries had a better way outside of Hong Kong…

I’m not a fan, in fact; just about all the older Chinese gentlemen that I know from Detroit says that; "Bruce Lee sucks" but Americans loved him (Hollywood), but if he wasn’t Bruce Lee himself, he would have been treated like any Blackman that worked in the cottonfield …

And in the end he got played (full circle) and got bullied right back…

He was not a nice person…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

He only invented JKD because he was angry @ Yip Man, and by being a famous actor he knew that his newfound system would skyrocket; no matter where he got the information (cause and effect), nothing hurts more then success monetarily…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I hope this is a true story and I have to believe that it is, because I truly trust my sifu…

My teacher seen ‘Bruce’ when he first came to the group class in Hong Kong, and he said that Bruce was self-centered, shallow and selfish…

One day my Sifu went to visit ‘Wong Sheung Leung’ at one of his group classes in Hong Kong in the late 50’s …

Wong Sheung Leung told my Sifu that the classes would be held on the rooftop of his building, Jun Fan got there ahead of everyone and told the group that "sifu was sick"…

He did that twice and had personal lessons with ‘Wong Sheung Leung’ by doing so…

The third time Bruce was caught doing the same thing by ‘Wong Sheung Leung’ from the rooftop, and in tern he had to wear sunglasses for well over a month when taking picture in a group setting, with yip man or anyone else for that matter…

Oh yeah! ‘Wong Sheung Leung’ tapped that a$$ and sent ‘Bruce’ home highly confused…


Ali Rahim.

[AdrianK]

Bruce Lee is a actor and nothing more and he did not know wing chun…

He had several years of Wing Chun training under one of the best, most famous teachers, had great relationships with many of Yip Man's top students, and continued his training with southern styles that share many of the same concepts wing chun has.

He didn't know Wing Chun? What is it, to know Wing Chun? To know all of the forms? Or to understand all of the concepts?

The forms are useless without the concepts, whereas the concepts are very much alive and flowing without the forms.



He is a traitor to his own wing chun family

This is just getting ridiculous. There is no Wing Chun family, if you hadn't noticed there are probably about over two dozen grandmasters and almost each and every one of them have bad things to say about each other.

And even at that, Bruce was never a disciple, merely a student. He had no reason to have any kind of loyalty to any style. Thus he can be no traitor. Your statement is ridiculous and shows a clear bias and ignorance of the subject matter.



while he turned his back on the pride of his people by using and featuring every art, but a Chinese martial art in his new found system…

Of his people? Segregation between races is one of the many major problems we have in our society. We are one. And an individual has no responsibility to anyone except himself.



Never once did he talk about wing chun in his publications, why? Because there were to many people that could call him a lie…

What publications? His basic series of kung fu books he published early in his life? Or the incomplete Tao of Jeet Kune Do which was not only incomplete, but may never have been intended to be published in the first place?



Bruce Lee was very disrespectful to over 90% of his classmate, in tern Yip Man didn’t want to have anything to do with him... Angry that Yip Man wouldn’t teach him and he wanted to let them know that he had no use for wing chun and other countries had a better way outside of Hong Kong…

Really? People like Hawkins Cheung tell a very different story.

I think you should leave the history of them to the people who were there, instead of trying to tell it as if you were. There are so many different people who claim this and that about Bruce Lee. A lot of people were and still are very jealous of him. On the other hand, people like Hawkins Cheung have nothing to gain from saying good things about Bruce. So please, understand where your source of information is coming from.

We can't have a debate based on second-hand knowledge anyway, so please, keep it to yourself.



I’m not a fan, in fact; just about all the older Chinese gentlemen that I know from Detroit says that; "Bruce Lee sucks" but Americans loved him (Hollywood), but if he wasn’t Bruce Lee himself, he would have been treated like any Blackman that worked in the cottonfield

Thats great. I'm sure they all knew him very well. :rolleyes:
It's interesting, I was once Chi Sao'ing with a JKD student once(the only reason i'm bringing up the fact he does JKD, was because he knew how to chi sao, and not any criticism on the art itself) - He was a very new student, so he didn't really understand chi sao very well, and I constantly controlled his body and connected my attacks on him.... in his view, when I'd hear our mutual friends relay to me what he said, he said he was better than me at chi sao... So I proposed this, every time we'd land an attack or series of attacks that would have done significant damage, or we control the person complete, we'd get a point, to 11 points. After 11 rounds, it was 10 points to me, and 1 point to him...

The point is, no matter what you do, or how good you are, unless you personally put them down, some people will always think you suck.



And in the end he got played (full circle) and got bullied right back…

Howso? The inconclusive match with Wong Jack Man?




He was not a nice person

Because you knew him so well[/b, i'm sure.



He only invented JKD because he was angry @ Yip Man, and by being a famous actor he knew that his newfound system would skyrocket; no matter where he got the information (cause and effect), nothing hurts more then success monetarily

What you're not understanding is, JKD is not supposed to be wing chun 2.0, its a philosophy on how to develop and evolve yourself as a martial artist. The philosphy is that scientific method and artistic expression should apply to martial arts as they do to any other art. That martial arts should instead of being static and dead, they should constantly evolve, no matter what you do.

This isn't about what he didn't find in wing chun, or what he couldn't learn. He identified something huge that was missing from martial arts far and wide, and to compensate, he created JKD.

It doesn't even matter [b]what his skill level was. His philosophy shares an incredible amount in common with every major form of expression, and science. Whereas the general martial arts community back then? It didn't. And it STILL doesn't.



I hope this is a true story and I have to believe that it is, because I truly trust my sifu…

:rolleyes:



My teacher seen ‘Bruce’ when he first came to the group class in Hong Kong, and he said that Bruce was self-centered, shallow and selfish…

Of COURSE he was! Bruce was a TEENAGER at the time! He wasn't JESUS CHRIST!



The third time Bruce was caught doing the same thing by ‘Wong Sheung Leung’ from the rooftop, and in tern he had to wear sunglasses for well over a month when taking picture in a group setting, with yip man or anyone else for that matter…

Oh yeah! ‘Wong Sheung Leung’ tapped that a$$ and sent ‘Bruce’ home highly confused…

This is about the most ridiculous story i've yet to hear on Bruce, completely irrelevant to the discussion, and the idea that Wong Shun Leung "Tapped that ass" is utter bull****. He got punished for lying, who cares. 'least he wasn't an opium addict. Oh but no one ever brings that one up to discredit a certain famous teacher.

[Violent Designs]

OK, my 2 cents. Don't freak out because I am not even part of the WCK circle. ANY WCK CIRCLE. I don't ****ing practice WCK. Or JKD. My dislike for the majority of both is well, rather significant.

That aside:

Some of you guys are suggesting that Bruce turned traitor or something? That is not even your fight, argument. That is issue between old school Chinese. Are some of you even Chinese? No. So seriously, STFU.

Secondly, some of you NON-CHINESE should feel lucky and perhaps give Bruce some credit for branching out and teaching you ****ing Guilao the Chinese way of fighting. Even if it is an imperfect form of WCK, or a hogwash of styles, or whatever. Doesn't matter if you think it's crap, or even if it is crap. What matters is that he taught non-Chinese.

There are, according to my research, suppose only less than handful of Chinese masters who taught non-Chinese at the same time as Bruce.

So you bash him for all the negative things you hear about, but all the positive things he contribute you just throw out the window. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

If this is the kind of sh1t that comes from passing Chinese fist methods to you mother****ing Guilao, then maybe I really SHOULD be ****ed off at Bruce for giving you people the benefit of the doubt.

[anerlich]

William Cheung told the same story about BL and WSL, so it might well be true.


He is a traitor to his own wing chun family

This is complete bollocks.


while he turned his back on the pride of his people by using and featuring every art, but a Chinese martial art in his new found system…

This is untrue. Therea are a variety of TCMA's mentioned in his books as being part of his system.


the older Chinese gentlemen that I know from Detroit says that; "Bruce Lee sucks" but Americans loved him (Hollywood), but if he wasn’t Bruce Lee himself, he would have been treated like any Blackman that worked in the cottonfield

One of the less admirable things about TCMA teachers of this generation is the great delight they take in denigating each other's achievements and rejoicing in their failures. Screw this attitude.

[Violent Designs]

William Cheung told the same story about BL and WSL, so it might well be true.



This is complete bollocks.



This is untrue. Therea are a variety of TCMA's mentioned in his books as being part of his system.



One of the less admirable things about TCMA teachers of this generation is the great delight they take in denigating each other's achievements and rejoicing in their failures. Screw this attitude.


These are some of the many problems present in old school CMA mindset. There are many amazing things in my culture yes, but also a lot of bigotry, especially infighting amongst OURSELVES.

Face, is more important than true skill many times.

[Stevehans]

OK, my 2 cents. Don't freak out because I am not even part of the WCK circle. ANY WCK CIRCLE. I don't ****ing practice WCK. Or JKD. My dislike for the majority of both is well, rather significant.

That aside:



That aside you shouldn't even be posting in this section of the forum. You are hardly going to be much of a contribution if you neither practice WCK or JKD.


Some of you guys are suggesting that Bruce turned traitor or something? That is not even your fight, argument. That is issue between old school Chinese. Are some of you even Chinese? No. So seriously, STFU.

If this is the kind of sh1t that comes from passing Chinese fist methods to you mother****ing Guilao, then maybe I really SHOULD be ****ed off at Bruce for giving you people the benefit of the doubt.

You obviously have some serious Psychological issues within yourself and a huge chip on your shoulder dude........you need help !

Why turn this into a race issue when it is clear to most here that it's not !

[Ali. R]

I guess its nothing wrong with hero-worshiping… Bruce Lee, is just another man that had a lot of cameras around him and nothing more (Elvis)…

Most here are saying that he is the best by blending all of these arts together… To prove that he is just another practitioner that couldn’t do anything against Yip Man’s students…

Now if he was so good, why couldn’t he deal with Samuel Hung? It’s a recorded known fact that ‘Bruce Lee’ couldn’t keep up with Mr. Hung or Jacky Chan as well…

Now if he couldn’t take advantage of an overweight actor in which Jacky Chan said himself that “Samuel Hung kept Bruce upset and angry, because he couldn’t deal with Mr. Hung skills"… Now how in the h*ll could ‘Bruce Lee’ change the world, WTF…

Bruce Lee didn’t represent wing chun not one time and nobody wanted him too… Nobody liked him back then in Hong Kong, and Bruce Lee never passed Chum Ki… His wing chun skills were very, very limited especially by today’s standers…

Any average European today that trains wing chun has ten time the wing chun knowledge that Bruce Lee could every have or had…

When Bruce Lee said bad things about Chinese Classical martial arts, he forgot to mention that he got his butt kick by those arts as well…


Ali Rahim.

[Kevin73]

Bruce Lee was a great athlete, but as a martial artist he was very shallow. This came from people like Ed Parker, Gene LeBell and Wally Jay who Bruce shared ideas with. The argument about the "Tao of JKD" being incomplete and if it should have been published or not is irrelavant in my opinion. What it does show is that Bruce had a thirst for knowledge and would get it from any source that he could. It also showed that his ideas were not his own (as claimed by his followers) and that he got them all from somewhere else. Copying passages out of old boxing and fencing manuals word for word and replacing the style with "JKD" when you write it down does not mean anything original.

Again, the argument about "he didn't plagarize because they were his personal notes" also doesn't hold water because they WERE published in their unfinished form and they don't have ANYTHING original in it. That is the problem, they were his notes, but he didn't put his own thoughts down on paper to connect the ideas or to put his own insight on it. So what we are left with, is copied material from other people that is pointed to, to show how GREAT Bruce Lee was.

It is also common knowledge among people in the area at the time that Bruce was very disrespectful to most older teachers in the MA. This was the reason for the challenge match with Wong Jack Man. Why would he challenge Bruce for doing the same thing he was doing...teaching non-chinese?

I have heard conflicting stories of how long Bruce actually studied Wing Chun. From his camp it is always "several", but from others I have heard it was only about 3 years total. I don't know about Bruce being a "traitor", but it was also known that Bruce not showing up to Ip Man's funeral caused alot of hard feelings.

Look at the time that Bruce Lee flourished. It was the Vietnam War era, EVERYONE was touting, don't listen to "The Establishment", do it your own way...etc. Bruce Lee took the popular philosophy of the time, and again didn't come up with anything new. Bruce gets the credit because he was a famous movie star and had the loudest voice.

[Ali. R]

Good Post

How would one feel if I said that Steven Sagle is the best ever, you would look at me like I’m crazy?

The only difference between him and Bruce Lee is that Lee had a lot of charisma and he was one of the first…

But, Sagle is still a bad man (skills)


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Really? People like Hawkins Cheung tell a very different story.

I wonder why?

Cha Ching $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I mean no disrespect too 'Hawkins Cheung' because that might not be the case, maybe all he seen was good things from Bruce Lee…

Everything that I’m saying is common knowledge...

If you had an instructor that trained in the 1950’s that was there and has nothing to gain from the truth or a lie, then you would know these things in which I’m speaking of…

Looks like you need a history lesson too...



Ali Rahim.

[TenTigers]

Oh yeah! ‘Wong Sheung Leung’ tapped that a$$ and sent ‘Bruce’ home highly confused…


Ali Rahim.

um..forgive my extreme whiteness, but what does that statement mean? In my experience, when we see a hot lookin chick, we say, "I would tap that a$$!"
meaning that we would have sex with her in a heartbeat.
Surely you're not implying....:eek:

[Ali. R]

um..forgive my extreme whiteness, but what does that statement mean? In my experience, when we see a hot lookin chick, we say, "I would tap that a$$!"
meaning that we would have sex with her in a heartbeat.
Surely you're not implying....:eek:


That’s cool LOL…. Back when I was growing up in Detroit (mid 70’s and early 80’s), when we won a gang fight or shoot out on 8mile, the term was “We busted dat a$$, to we tapped dat a$$…

Most thugs that I grew up with took that term to the form of sex (sex is violent).. It’s all thug life…
But it was taken in the term of fighting or killing first (fact)…

I grew out of that a long time ago (fighting, killing, shooting)…

I say this because all one has to do is look up ones record on the Internet…

Back then I was extremely violent, something today that I'm not proud of…



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

See, this is problem

Bruce was an actor (and a very good one); so it was easy for him too act…


Ali Rahim.

[AdrianK]

I guess its nothing wrong with hero-worshiping… Bruce Lee, is just another man that had a lot of cameras around him and nothing more (Elvis)…

:rolleyes:
He had one of the best Wing Chun teachers in the history of Wing Chun, and many of Yip Man's students paled in comparison in both their understanding of the art and their teaching ability. NONE have managed to train anywhere near the kind of student base that Yip Man has.



Most here are saying that he is the best by blending all of these arts together… To prove that he is just another practitioner that couldn’t do anything against Yip Man’s students…

No one is saying hes the best. Just that his accomplishments are worthy of praise.



Now if he was so good, why couldn’t he deal with Samuel Hung? It’s a recorded known fact that ‘Bruce Lee’ couldn’t keep up with Mr. Hung or Jacky Chan as well…

I'm not going to get into any of this he-said, she-said this and that about bruce lee bull****. However, I do have a point to make about this - Someones fighting ability is not necessarily in connection with their understanding or skill level. Freddie Roach was an okay boxer and an incredible trainer, for instance, and there are plenty of examples throughout history.

But besides that, it has nothing to do with the fact that Bruce's philosophy is still, to this day, revolutionary. And it is still, to this day, widely ignored and/or misinterpreted even within JKD schools.



Now if he couldn’t take advantage of an overweight actor in which Jacky Chan said himself that “Samuel Hung kept Bruce upset and angry, because he couldn’t deal with Mr. Hung skills"… Now how in the h*ll could ‘Bruce Lee’ change the world, WTF…

See above.



Bruce Lee didn’t represent wing chun not one time and nobody wanted him too… Nobody liked him back then in Hong Kong, and Bruce Lee never passed Chum Ki… His wing chun skills were very, very limited especially by today’s standers…

He knew everything in the system except Biu Jee, the last 68 movements on the dummy, and the weapons. He was very well liked by several of Yip Man's top students, and the idea that his wing chun skills were very limited even by todays standards is ridiculous. The State of wing chun has gotten significantly worse, not better.



Any average European today that trains wing chun has ten time the wing chun knowledge that Bruce Lee could every have or had…

This is just ridiculous. You don't know the man, nor do you know what he knew, or his abilities. Just second-hand knowledge.

Congratulations, you've demonstrated an extreme level of ignorance about the subject matter, and an extreme level of arrogance. Perfect combination for the average martial arts instructor.



When Bruce Lee said bad things about Chinese Classical martial arts, he forgot to mention that he got his butt kick by those arts as well…

Bruce never got his butt kicked by an "art". But by people who practiced them? Sure. I can find you a practictioner from a style you think is worthless, that can still kick your ass. It really means nothing.



It also showed that his ideas were not his own (as claimed by his followers) and that he got them all from somewhere else. Copying passages out of old boxing and fencing manuals word for word and replacing the style with "JKD" when you write it down does not mean anything original.

We've been over this before but let me re-iterate.

Everyones ideas are not their own, technically. Bruce had an understanding of these ideas, and he brought these ideas into a martial arts world almost completely devoid of them. That was what was original.



Again, the argument about "he didn't plagarize because they were his personal notes" also doesn't hold water because they WERE published in their unfinished form and they don't have ANYTHING original in it.

Have you even read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, and not just skimmed through it????

He didn't plagiarize because those were his personal notes. He didn't publish them himself and he cannot be held responsible for what other people do with his writings. And there is plenty outside of the quotes in the tao of jeet kune do, that was absolutely original.



That is the problem, they were his notes, but he didn't put his own thoughts down on paper to connect the ideas or to put his own insight on it. So what we are left with, is copied material from other people that is pointed to, to show how GREAT Bruce Lee was.

From what I understand theres plenty of his writings that didn't get published. No one points to the tao and the copied material as evidence that bruce was great. He was great because he was an extremely hard working martial artist. He was in peak physical condition, and he had a very advanced view on how martial arts should be viewed. Who cares about the tao of jeet kune do, just look at bruce himself.



It is also common knowledge among people in the area at the time that Bruce was very disrespectful to most older teachers in the MA. This was the reason for the challenge match with Wong Jack Man. Why would he challenge Bruce for doing the same thing he was doing...teaching non-chinese?

There were few teachers teaching non-chinese in the US at that time. And yeah, Bruce was very disrespectful and such early on in his life, as are most adult males at that stage. Doesn't take away anything from him.



Look at the time that Bruce Lee flourished. It was the Vietnam War era, EVERYONE was touting, don't listen to "The Establishment", do it your own way...etc. Bruce Lee took the popular philosophy of the time, and again didn't come up with anything new. Bruce gets the credit because he was a famous movie star and had the loudest voice.

The philosophy was far deeper than that. Just watch his interviews. He understood it on a far deeper level than just, "Do it your own way". To reduce it to that is an extreme disservice to the man.



The only difference between him and Bruce Lee is that Lee had a lot of charisma and he was one of the first…

:rolleyes:



I wonder why?

Cha Ching $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I mean no disrespect too 'Hawkins Cheung' because that might not be the case, maybe all he seen was good things from Bruce Lee…

Cha Ching? Hawkins lives about the most humbly I've ever seen from a martial arts instructor. Hes far from rich.



If you had an instructor that trained in the 1950’s that was there and has nothing to gain from the truth or a lie, then you would know these things in which I’m speaking of…

And yet you assume I haven't, okay. Go ahead and live in your fantasy world where Bruce was just another poser. Protect your archaic ideals to the death.

[Ali. R]

Go ahead and live in your fantasy world where Bruce was just another poser. Protect your archaic ideals to the death.

I never assumed anything.

Your opinions are your opinions, and my opinions belongs to me, if you want me to stop while you continue to defend your opinions, then it’s more then understandable…:D


Just that his accomplishments are worthy of praise.

And so is every other person in this world…

Long as there are others here that feels close to the way that I do, I’ll just let their opinions speak for themselves, once again while you continue to defend yours (opinions)…

But first a tribute to your hero before I go, hold on to your sets boys and girls...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2l4bz1FT8U

All in fun, LOL...


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just to give you a headups, Adrian...

There's a reason why a lot of people around here, myself included, have learned to ignore - for the most part - Ali Rahim's posts.

Well actually, there's a bunch of reasons...

But anyway, at work right now, but I intend to post some more on this thread about Bruce Lee's jeet kune do and what it has meant to the martial arts world in general, and to the wing chun world in particular.

[chusauli]

Let's just say my Sifu Hawkins is from a well to do family. He's not poor.

He's a no frills guy and doesn't make much from martial arts. There is no great desire in him to have a great successful $ making school. The school he has is an old fashioned type of non commercial gwoon.

[Vajramusti]

One cannot deny BL's unique combination of athleticism and training regimens. And since he began with wing chun the link will always be there.

But there are lots of broad overgeneralizations about all of wing chun being made by posters
on this thread.
.
Why not limit comments to your own knowledge of wing chun rather than the "style" as a whole.

The man is gone-honor the dead or acknowledge him and let it go.

If BL has influenced your practice-that's great.


FWIW- I have enjoyed his movies -the interactions IMO are still better than Jackie Chan or Jet Li-
but as far actual influence on my wing chun- I see none... not a reflection on him.He did what he did.

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

We shouldn't let it go.

Because the basic premise in JKD, the sun around which everything else revolves, is Bruce Lee's insistence that one cannot allow "styles" to become one's limitation.

In order to be a more complete fighter/martial artist, one has to have an open mind.

You can't allow yourself to be put into a box...you have to be willing to use any and all means of achieving your martial ends at any given moment in time...

regardless of where the actual moves you make come from, be it boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu, wing chun, karate, hapkido, Muay Thai, or plain ol' street-fighting tactics.

Whatever it is.

[Vajramusti]

Some folk's wing chun can keep on evolving- doesn't have to be in a box and doesn't have to be JKD. Confusion of labels!

joy chaudhuri

[Wu Wei Wu]

If you are going to poke fun at least demonstrate your own ability first. Here are two great clips, of a great fighter mocking Bruce Lee and other fighters. n.b the GOD inspired shorts. Anderson is one cool cookie ; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5zjL05yn3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DghW3qL80Ig

Suki

[AdrianK]

Some folk's wing chun can keep on evolving- doesn't have to be in a box and doesn't have to be JKD. Confusion of labels!

joy chaudhuri

Absolutely. The philosophies used in JKD are also independent of JKD... in that they are philosophies that can be learned in life, and you don't need any JKD instructor to teach you them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some folk's wing chun can keep on evolving- doesn't have to be in a box and doesn't have to be JKD. Confusion of labels!

joy chaudhuri


***IF it doesn't include some crosstraining/mixed martial art approach, then it's not really evolving - it's simply tinkering around the edges.

Because wing chun all by itself is not - and never will be - a COMPLETE martial art.

Just the same way that boxing all by itself will never be a complete art, or wrestling, or karate, or jiu jitsu, or Muay Thai, or savate, or judo, or choy li fut, or ANY ART that does not cover all the bases:

STANDUP STRIKING/KICKING FROM LONG RANGE
STANDUP .........................FROM SHORT RANGE
STRIKING/KNEEING/ELBOWING WHEN IN (OR CLOSE TO) THE CLINCH
WRESTLING/GRAPPLING IN THE CLINCH
WRESTLING/GRAPPLING ON THE GROUND
STRIKING WHEN ON THE GROUND

etc...

And this is the reason why mixed martial arts (MMA) is at the forefront of martial arts today.

And Jeet Kune Do is the precursor to today's mma.

Because Bruce Lee understood the importance (and worked with) all of the above some 40 years ago.

[Vajramusti]

If someone thinks that they need to supplement their wing chun- that is ok with me. Wing chun is not the only way to "fight".

Also, the individual is an important variable- not just the style.

Then there could be folks who do sub par wing chun who should jump ship if they find a great teacher of some other style or activity.

Much depends on the depth of one's wing chun, the understanding of one's game and one's
experience and toughness.

I would hesitate making generalizations about all wing chun folks any where and everywhere.
Sampling problems can thwart good generalizations..

oops-late for doing wing chun!!Honest-- cheers

joy chaudhuri

[goju]

lol im amused at these guys saying bruce lees knowledge of wing chun is limited

really and who are you to say this tell me who you studied under and why you can make such a statement?

guys talking **** are probably leung ting students lol

[Liddel]

really and who are you to say this tell me who you studied under and why you can make such a statement?

Even though this wasnt directed at me...

My Sifu was the in earlier generation above BL and knew him personally, im told his VT was just OK, for his duration of training.

His experience and ability in VT is overated as well as his relationship with WSL and GM Ip - Given GM Ips views towards non chinesse and that BL was for lack of a better word a 'halfcast' this does make sence....

However fighting ability is all together different based on the fact he moved onwards and upwards and VT was just the early days of MA's for him so i wont comment on that.

He did spur Bas Rueten (sp?) into MA's so......thats one plus LOL

DREW

[Bo_toxic]

Bruce Lee was more than a wing chun fighter. Don't forget Bruce also could fly....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1f7fiWeBW4

[Achilles1987]

At last clearly Bruce Lee's arrogance made him blind. That is the fact that people are afraid to mention. There are many Sifus in the world who are much better than him. And he does only know Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and nearly 2/3 of Mook Yan Jong techniques. It doesn't make him a master of WC Style! He is only a talented and hardworking student. But claiming that Wing Chun is junk is not in his capability of martial arts... If he thinks that the system that he learned is junk and there are other practionners of the system who are better than him in fighting/application than maybe he is a JUNK!

[Ali. R]

It’s a recorded known fact that ‘Yip Ching’ and ‘Yip Chun’ watched Bruce Lee play the “Mook Yong Jong”, and from the clips that they seen together; agreed that the form in which he taught (Bruce Lee) and claimed that was of Yip Man’s teachings, was false…

Maybe there’s another opinion or fact that I don’t know about…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Achilles1987]

lol im amused at these guys saying bruce lees knowledge of wing chun is limited

really and who are you to say this tell me who you studied under and why you can make such a statement?

guys talking **** are probably leung ting students lol

Yes. I am practising GM Leung Ting System under SiFu Emin Boztepe. We call ourselves EBMAS Students. Sifu Boztepe had studied 24 years actively under GM Leung Ting untill he finishes the whole system. If you look at the history then you should see Bruce Lee had only worked under GGM Ip Man for 4,5 years. Bruce Lee died when he is 32 years old. Even if he studied untill his death that would be 32-14=18 years.

[goju]

lol yeah because everybody knows none of thse masters that trained with bruce were jealous of him lol
according to grandmaster william cheung many of the student under yip man were disrespectful to yip and treated him poorly
so that fact that bruce lle excelled at wing chun shows he was taught well
ive seen alot of those other masters who trained under yip and am not impressed
for people like willaim cheung and bruce lle supposedly being there for a short period of time and having a vague grasp of the system i see a hell of alot more skill there than a lot of other yip man or supposed yip man students

[t_niehoff]

Yes. I am practising GM Leung Ting System under SiFu Emin Boztepe. We call ourselves EBMAS Students. Sifu Boztepe had studied 24 years actively under GM Leung Ting untill he finishes the whole system. If you look at the history then you should see Bruce Lee had only worked under GGM Ip Man for 4,5 years. Bruce Lee died when he is 32 years old. Even if he studied untill his death that would be 32-14=18 years.

Skill isn't dependent upon or related to the time you've spent "studying" something. You can see this in every form of athletics (or, are you someone that believes WCK is unique and unlike anything else, i.e., is magical?).

And, do you believe it takes anyone 24 years to learn WCK ("the whole system")? Anyone taking that long to teach "the system" is simply milking it along for money. And, it makes you wonder about the lack of common sense of any person that would stick around so long to get "the system".

If it takes you more than a few years to learn WCK ("the system"), then something is very, very wrong.

[goju]

lol an embas student calling somebody else out lol

everything leug ting teaches jus loks like paddy cake paddy cake lol he even admitted last year he didnt learn from yip man and was taught a modified system

[TenTigers]

It’s a recorded known fact that ‘Yip Ching’ and ‘Yip Chun’ watched Bruce Lee play the “Mook Yong Jong”, and from the clips that they seen together; agreed that the form in which he taught (Bruce Lee) and claimed that was of Yip Man’s teachings, was false…

Maybe there’s another opinion or fact that I don’t know about…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

hmmm, well, I heard that everyone plays the jong differently, and the sequences were never etched in stone. GM Yip taught the individual sections,theories, concepts, techniques, etc, but each person has their own expression of it.
The same being for the Bot Jahm Dao and Gwun.

[t_niehoff]

hmmm, well, I heard that everyone plays the jong differently, and the sequences were never etched in stone. GM Yip taught the individual sections,theories, concepts, techniques, etc, but each person has their own expression of it.
The same being for the Bot Jahm Dao and Gwun.

Stop talking sense.

[Yoshiyahu]

It’s a recorded known fact that ‘Yip Ching’ and ‘Yip Chun’ watched Bruce Lee play the “Mook Yong Jong”, and from the clips that they seen together; agreed that the form in which he taught (Bruce Lee) and claimed that was of Yip Man’s teachings, was false…

Maybe there’s another opinion or fact that I don’t know about…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

I heard that Bruce lee didn't have the complete Mook Yan Jong form...Thats what have heard is written!

[Ali. R]

That’s very much true to the point that there’s no one that can verify that he learned that form at all, but there’s more then a half dozen that said he didn’t; and most defiantly not from Yip Man…

That form was taught the same to everyone (from 1951 until the late 60’s) and if there were any modifications to it; it was a very, very small difference and anyone that’s truly in the “Yip Man” family will say so (as taught by his fist five students, on)…

Far as Yip Man Teaching it different; sorry you just made that up… I mean no harm but you did, and it's just one person that says that is the case from the Hong Kong family that I know of…

He left a long time before he could even reach that level anyway (Bruce)…

I have seen that form for myself (that Lee taught), from one of my students that trained under James De’Miles for 8 years, and it’s way off by a long shot…

You can see it for yourself cause it's not that hard to find...


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Don’t take my work for it…

All one has to do is take a look at the first five families and their students “Wooden Man Form” from the “Hong Kong System”, and one will see for themselves that I speak the truth; just a very, very small difference between each family…

Each set of the “Wooden Man Form” is outlined the same from each family on with a very, very small difference in detail (fact)...:D

Go take a look for yourself,;)


Ali Rahim.

[goju]

ll yeah right ypi chun didnt even learn from his dad by the time he went to live with yip man he was so out of his gord on drugs he couldnt teach so the notion that he watched bruce preform the dummy is bs

[Ali. R]

WOW!


ll yeah right ypi chun didnt even learn from his dad by the time he went to live with yip man he was so out of his gord on drugs he couldnt teach so the notion that he watched bruce preform the dummy is bs

No one will dispute that statement but you, because you truly don’t know (fact)…

To many people here know for a fact; that statement is true…

That is a true statement made by both of them, which is in a very popular martial art magazine…

Do the research yourself,


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Want to go back to some discussion that took place earlier on this thread; specifically, some posts that were made on page 2 of the thread (beginning with the very first post on that page)...

and pick it up again...because it reinforces some points I've been trying to make for years now on this forum.

So here it is:


Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"To say that Bruce Lee thought that wing chun was ineffective/junk is to display one's total lack of investigation into what BL was doing.

He (and Dan Inosanto later on) made it clear that certain wing chun principles were the nucleus of what he was doing with his JKD, ie.- use of a centerline, preference for straight line punching and kicking, use of wing chun infighting techniques (ie.- what BL referred to as trapping) from very close range, low line kicking, etc..

IN ADDITION TO those things that were purely BL's ideas, ie.- crosstraining in other arts like boxing, wrestling, escrima, longer range kicking, etc...various heavy contact (with protective gear) drilling and sparring methods that wing chun practitioners were not doing in those days, and so on." (Victor)

............................................

FOLLOWED BY THIS FROM HUMBLE WC GUY:

"You are dead wrong. In reality, the center line is just a basic martial arts principle. It is used in a number of martial arts styles. Per Ted Wong, one of Bruce's final students, Bruce got away from trapping as he found it to be ineffective against good fighters. BL students still trap today because many of them did not receive the final form of JKD or they just liked it and kept doing it. Bruce despised the WC stances, footwork, punching, and kicking. He kept the trapping until he decided that it was junk."

………………………………………………….

AND THIS FROM SANJURO:

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
"Until he decided that it was "junk" for HIM."

................................................

FOLLOWED BY THIS FROM HUMBLE WC GUY"

"Well lets see. He stopped teaching the stances, footwork, and finally the trapping and Chi Sao. When you stop teaching something you have decided that it is junk for everybody and not just yourself."

.................................................. .....

***OKAY... Now I chose my words very carefully when I wrote this on that first post: "use of wing chun infighting techniques (ie.- what BL referred to as trapping) from very close range..."

Because it's been my experience (and observation) that actual "trapping", wherein you get to control two of your opponent's arms with one of yours - IS ALMOST NEVER GOING TO TO HAPPEN.

But "infighting" technique can (at times) mean that it is sometimes possible to control one of his arms with one of yours while hitting him with your other arm - and position yourself in such a way that his other (free) arm is really NOT a threat to you at that moment.

But "trapping"...yeah, the concept is basically junk.

FURTHERMORE, what I believe Ted Wong was mostly referring when he talked about BL discarding the wing chun stances, footwork and trapping....

is any notion of trying to use wing chun FROM LONG RANGE.

I think that BL found out pretty early on that this is most usable when one is within one half step of the being able to touch an opponent's limb with one of your arms and hitting his body (or head) with your other arm...IN OTHER WORDS...very close.

Wing Chun is purely a standup infighting striking system.

And Bruce Lee understood that some 40 years ago, to his credit.

......................................


FURTHERMORE, it is my observation through the now 34 years that I'm doing the art...that the reason why people constantly comment that wing chun in actual sparring/fighting often looks like "kickboxing"...or like some form of "JKD"...

is precisely because wing chun is first-and-foremost an infighting sytem - and so the "kickboxing" or the "JKD" look is THE DELIVERY SYSTEM being used to get to the wing chun infighting range.

Now when you also factor into the equation the fact that sooooo many people in the wing chun world have learned a lot of crap...then oftentimes what you're looking at doesn't look like wing chun at all; or worse yet, it looks lousy, and comes off as being ineffective against other arts.

It doesn't mean that wing chun doesn't have a lot to offer, but it does mean that the latter is hard to find.

And as long as the "DELIVERY SYSTEM" aspect of what I'm talking about is being ignored - and as long as the need to CROSSTRAIN is being ignored...

wing chun is going to continue in the sorry state that most of it is in at the present time.

[goju]

no yip mans kids didnt study under him they were taught by some other bloke yip chuns claims that he is the current gm of wingchun are bogus

thats the unfortunate side of wing chun to much petty infighting( no pun intended lol)

[Ali. R]

I’m sorry, I will only follow the subject at hand, and I’ll defend the fact that ‘Bruce Lee’ didn’t represent wing chun, and those that cite him as doing so is wrong…

This is the question; “Bruce Lee & Wing Chun”, and it's not about how good he is…:rolleyes:


Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Let's be honest, it is a fact that Bruce Lee was respected by many of his contemporaries of his time. As already mentioned the tops fighters of his time chose to train with him, Chuck NOrris, Joe Lewis etc, so there must have been something there.

Was Bruce the best Wing Chun guy or a representative of the Wing Chun family? No certainly not. Yip Man had his reasons for not training Bruce to higher levels and many had to do with Yip Mans traditional outlook, some say Bruce was too westernized. There is even a story that Bruce tried to "buy" a higher position or more knowledge within Wing Chun by offering Yip Man a house, but Yip Man refused.

However, IMHO, the reason people, not just Wing Chun people but others too, cite Bruce Lee is MARKETING. most know who Bruce Lee was and some want to emulate him. What better way than to take the same style he trained in and based much of his JKD on?

Some here are spouting sour grapes........they seem upset that so many years after his death he still has such an impact.

I do not like some stylists and my have low opinions of their skills...........but in some cases they are making movies and I am not. They must be something right ;)

[Ali. R]

Paying taxes is a wonderful thing.


Some here are spouting sour grapes........they seem upset that so many years after his death he still has such an impact.


For most here, that is not the case… If he has an impact on anything then let it be truth and nothing more (Bruce & Wing Chun.), why make things up like most has on this thread...


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's a good post, Sihing73.

And to add to your point, what sometimes really bothers me is that some of the very same people who have gained some status (and money) within the martial arts community by teaching wing chun...

thereby capitalizing upon the marketing for their art that Bruce Lee provided...

are now the very same people who try to downplay his fighting skills, martial arts knowledge, and overall impact upon the world. :o :eek:

But the truth remains: the guy was great! :cool:

[Ali. R]

Victor, nobodies tearing down his skills that’s nothing more then far from the truth, (light-years)…

You can take your teabag convention (Stan Lee’s “Cranberry Pomegranate” Green Tea), and go sip those actuations of high caffeine somewhere else…

Why is there even another thread that says on this wing chun Board; “Could anyone have beaten Bruce Lee”?

That’s because of your teabag convention on this thread as you refuse to stay on subject and only went straight to tea bagging…:rolleyes:


Ali Rahim.

[AdrianK]

I wonder, even if you were correct Ali Rahim, which do you think is worse, those that would boost up a persons reputation as inspiration, or those that would tear it down for no reason?

Given what I've seen of your posts, I would guess you would think the latter is the better way to go.

[Achilles1987]

Skill isn't dependent upon or related to the time you've spent "studying" something. You can see this in every form of athletics (or, are you someone that believes WCK is unique and unlike anything else, i.e., is magical?).

And, do you believe it takes anyone 24 years to learn WCK ("the whole system")? Anyone taking that long to teach "the system" is simply milking it along for money. And, it makes you wonder about the lack of common sense of any person that would stick around so long to get "the system".

If it takes you more than a few years to learn WCK ("the system"), then something is very, very wrong.

You are right actually the whole system can be learnt in 5-6 years depending on the lessons and your skill. But...
Learning with mastering the techniques and do not pass to another technique untill you reach some level of perfection in application is making sense to me. No offense to you or to any other system. Everybody has its own way of teaching.

[Ali. R]

I wonder, even if you were correct Ali Rahim, which do you think is worse, those that would boost up a persons reputation as inspiration, or those that would tear it down for no reason?

Given what I've seen of your posts, I would guess you would think the latter is the better way to go.


Stop making sh!t up… That’s the only way haters know how to roll…

You can’t learn anything in 5 years; it took me almost six to seven to learn Sil Lim Tao
And for most practitioners three to four years (no short cuts), you could know of but not learn in five years…

No wonder you guys talk the way you talk when it comes to wing chun. you just keep making things up…

That comment of yours is nothing more then reaching for straws… I’ve never boosted anything up to knock anything down never once did I teabag ‘Bruce’…

Your comment makes as much sense then sh!tty underwear lift in the legs of a pair of Levi’s in the middle of the bathroom floor..

You are not a mind reader so don’t act like you know me, cause you don’t…
Don’t put words in my mouth; cause all I care about is the truth …


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

hmmm, well, I heard that everyone plays the jong differently, and the sequences were never etched in stone. GM Yip taught the individual sections,theories, concepts, techniques, etc, but each person has their own expression of it.
The same being for the Bot Jahm Dao and Gwun.

This is exactly what people who looked and copied rather than having direct teachings use to convince people of thier Lineage.

Even those with poor techniques like bruces famous Guarn Sau Picture for example is over looked because he has a pic of him and GM Ip posed in Poon Sau so people then say he learnt from Ip.

LT is the same, pictures with the old man even though he got most of his actions from Leung Sheung. Hell he has contradicting stuff in his own books.

He has a section with pictures of him and also his student Tam Hong Fun (sp?) on the Jong and later in the same book pics of Ip Man on the Jong.
Now sequences dont have to be exact per say but Ting kicks with opposite legs has leg and palm combos on opposite sides, elbow position is different...the list goes on. So forget personall expression - the techs and concepts HAVE changed IMO.

Why many people dont see this and question it i can only assume is because hes got photos of him posing with GM Ip and thats makes him legitimate or worthy of allmightyness. :p

My Sifu was the assitant to Lok Yiu and taught most of his students the pole form and applications including Sifu Loks own sons, Gm Ip tweaked his VT from hands to Kwan and his teachings were uniform and very much the same right through which is what he then passed on... nowadays the Kwan has changed big time in concepts and application and not just someones personal expression !

Dont even get me started on the BJD. Half the Gap Do application out there will get you seriously injured LOL :o My sifu asked WSL to teach him the BJD as formally he could only learn one weapon at the school. WSL's BJD teachings were uniform and consitent as passed to him from Ip.

Individual expression is great, in fact its probably necessary for an art to not stagnate but the grey area where the theories and concepts also become a personal expression is IMHO where VT becomes something else.

Or more to the point people without a critical mind dont or cant differentiate between what is personal expression and / or gross mutation of theory and concepts.


I wonder, even if you were correct Ali Rahim, which do you think is worse, those that would boost up a persons reputation as inspiration, or those that would tear it down for no reason?

Given what I've seen of your posts, I would guess you would think the latter is the better way to go.

I dont think its fair to jump on Ali there Adrian, You seem to think because people saying BL wasnt great at VT thier saying he wasnt a good fighter etc.

One can be a good fighter without being good at VT and bruce was one such example IMO.

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Victor, nobodies tearing down his skills that’s nothing more then far from the truth, (light-years)…

You can take your teabag convention (Stan Lee’s “Cranberry Pomegranate” Green Tea), and go sip those actuations of high caffeine somewhere else…

Why is there even another thread that says on this wing chun Board; “Could anyone have beaten Bruce Lee”?

That’s because of your teabag convention on this thread as you refuse to stay on subject and only went straight to tea bagging…:rolleyes:


Ali Rahim.

I think you may be confusing nutriding with teabagging :D
At least no one has brought up salad tossing yet.
:p

[LSWCTN1]

Now I chose my words very carefully when I wrote this on that first post: "use of wing chun infighting techniques (ie.- what BL referred to as trapping) from very close range..."

Because it's been my experience (and observation) that actual "trapping", wherein you get to control two of your opponent's arms with one of yours - IS ALMOST NEVER GOING TO TO HAPPEN.



i like your post a lot, but the quote I highlighted above made me think about something

trapping, to us, is still controlling 2 arms with 1 arm but not necessarily by bridging the 2 arms at once

to us trapping can also be the angling of your attack to close the distance and attacking space of your opponent. blocking his possability to use his second arm. not bridging that arm, but still 'trapping' it

in actual combat this is relatively easy to do? please can you clarify what you mean?

[stonecrusher69]

Hello,


However, IMHO, the reason people, not just Wing Chun people but others too, cite Bruce Lee is MARKETING. most know who Bruce Lee was and some want to emulate him. What better way than to take the same style he trained in and based much of his JKD on?





You hit the nail on the head there.It all about Marketing. Look all the W.C sifu's website and articles about 99% of them all mention B.L. "Learn B.L. original M.A. Blah Blah Blah." The only people that should mention B.L is teh JKD guys.B.L left W.C a long time ago.

[AdrianK]

Stop making sh!t up… That’s the only way haters know how to roll…

The only person making **** up is you, homie.



You can’t learn anything in 5 years; it took me almost six to seven to learn Sil Lim Tao

That explains a whole hell of a lot.
You can learn quite a bit in five years, from an intelligent instructor. Absolutely. 5 years is nothing in todays martial arts because for the most part, we have a whole ton of uneducated idiots teaching, who have no concept of what their martial art is about in the first place.

Yeah, if you teach someone the movements and just expect them to "get it", then yeah, 5 years isn't **** for someones first style. But not only was this NOT Bruce's first style, but he had legendary teachers.

Furthermore, if you know the templates of Wing Chun, you can understand them from a conceptual point of view, all on your own, as long as you're an intelligent person. This is self-training. At some point in your martial arts training you must let go of your teachers hand and begin to develop your martial arts for yourself, alongside seeking knowledge from other sources.



And for most practitioners three to four years (no short cuts), you could know of but not learn in five years…

You can learn every movement template and drill it, in 5 years. After you've drilled/felt it, you can conceptualize it over as many years as it takes you, depending on how intelligent you are.

You're making the complexity of wing chun out to be far more than it is. It IS a very complex system, but the reason for people taking so long to become proficient in it is because a.) most people are not physically or mentally able, b.) they are taught improperly, by people who should not even be teachers, and/or c.) most people do not revolve their lives around martial arts.

I think people forget that teaching is a profession that which in itself takes several years to learn. How many martial artists do you know, with a teaching degree? Probably none. This is one of the major reasons it takes an incredibly long amount of time to learn an art.

I'm not saying a teaching degree is necessary, some people are naturally good teachers. But those are few and far between and a formal education would really make a positive impact.



That comment of yours is nothing more then reaching for straws… I’ve never boosted anything up to knock anything down never once did I teabag ‘Bruce’

I never said you boosted anything up.
Go back and re-read my post. If you still come to the same conclusions, you need to go back to school. :rolleyes:



Don’t put words in my mouth; cause all I care about is the truth …

Thats hilarious because for someone who cares so much about the truth, you sure are basing your ideas off of a whole lot of second-hand and third-hand knowledge. You're not dealing in facts, you're dealing in what people tell you. Thus, you're not dealing in truth my friend. You're dealing in gossip.

[Ultimatewingchun]

i like your post a lot, but the quote I highlighted above made me think about something

trapping, to us, is still controlling 2 arms with 1 arm but not necessarily by bridging the 2 arms at once

to us trapping can also be the angling of your attack to close the distance and attacking space of your opponent. blocking his possability to use his second arm. not bridging that arm, but still 'trapping' it

in actual combat this is relatively easy to do? please can you clarify what you mean?


***I THINK it's easy to get caught up in the words, LSWCTN1...but the way you describe the process is the way I believe it can be done, although it's not necessarily easy. :cool:

(And btw, I hesitate to use the word "trapping" in this regard, because technically what you and I are now talking about is not actually tying up both his arms with one just one of ours).

But if you guys are using the word "trapping" to describe this, then fine.

[Ali. R]

You're dealing in gossip.

Yeah, you would dismiss it as so because that’s your only out, and by the way you’re bleeding I know you wish it were true…


“Homie”

You're not my boy, you're Lee's little toy...



The only person making **** up is you, homie.

You got to be selling a$$ for ‘Bruce’, because you're going way beyond tea bagging…
Bruce is pimping that a$$ out strong; as you work the corners with a black eye and everything…

You need to cauterize your sh!t man because you’re bleeding all over the place, and I’m pretty sure tampons couldn’t clog that hole…

My info comes from a person that was there, and whom I’ve known for well over 30 years and most here (Yip Man Family) knows that I speak the truth on this thread…

Now where do you get your information?

To show everyone that you are just running your mouth, show all of us where I made up anything and prove it in written, and that will show everyone that you know nothing at all…

Just stay with the facts, facts only, or just walk away from me and choose someone else to sell that a$$ to (yours and Bruce)…


Ali Rahim.

[Violent Designs]

This is some hilarious sh1t.

[AdrianK]

Yeah, you would dismiss it as so because that’s your only out, and by the way you’re bleeding I know you wish it were true…

No, you are really dealing in gossip here. You have no first-hand knowledge of what you're speaking of, and the second-hand and third-hand knowledge isn't based on any kind of documented fact, its some peoples opinion that had very little actual experience with Bruce.



You're not my boy, you're Lee's little toy...

lol :D Funny, very funny.



You got to be selling a$$ for ‘Bruce’, because you're going way beyond tea bagging…
Bruce is pimping that a$$ out strong; as you work the corners with a black eye and everything…

Bruce is a source of inspiration for me, make no mistake. But it ends there. Your case for trying to discredit him is extremely weak, and if you had a decent case for it, I would definitely listen. But you don't. So keep acting like a jealous ass :D



You need to cauterize your sh!t man because you’re bleeding all over the place, and I’m pretty sure tampons couldn’t clog that hole…

Thats completely uncalled for and fairly disgusting. As a martial arts instructor I'd expect a higher level of professionalism from you. :mad:



My info comes from a person that was there, and whom I’ve known for well over 30 years and most here (Yip Man Family) knows that I speak the truth on this thread…

Your info is still second-hand from someone who only had a short experience at only one point in Bruce's life. Its like someone saying Albert Einstein was an idiot, because they met him once when he was 14. It makes no sense. The man constantly grew as a martial artist. Unless you or someone you know, knew him very well, in the last few years of his life, you really have no business talking about who he was.



Now where do you get your information?

To show everyone that you are just running your mouth, show all of us where I made up anything and prove it in written, and that will show everyone that you know nothing at all…

Where do I get my information? That Bruce Lee was extremely fit? That Bruce studied several years with Yip Man? That he believed in something which I consider an extremely advanced outlook on martial arts?

Exactly which of these facts that I've stated, are in question??? I never said I have facts that Bruce was an amazing martial artist. I simply said based on the facts surrounding his life, I choose to believe he was and use him as a source of inspiration. Whereas you base your entire opinion about him, not on his life, accomplishment, or facts, but on peoples opinions of him who 1.) Did not know him, and 2.) Only had brief experiences with him, at certain points in his life.



Just stay with the facts, facts only, or just walk away from me and choose someone else to sell that a$$ to (yours and Bruce)…

Actually you need to take your own advice.

[Ali. R]

You need to back off me, becaues you came with no facts dealing with the subject at hand; just as I stated you couldn't…

The subject is “why do wing chun people cite Bruce Lee”, not how fit he is…

Now you want to talk about being professional when it was you who lost their mind first (attacking me personally), don’t throw stones…

WTF another politician, now that you’re getting your hole stomped in, you want to cry foul…:confused:


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Holy crap guys, he's dead, drop it.
To deny his influence is just as silly as to put him on a pedestal.
He was good at what he did, period.
Let it go and drop it.

[Ali. R]

Holy crap guys, he's dead, drop it.
To deny his influence is just as silly as to put him on a pedestal.
He was good at what he did, period.
Let it go and drop it.


Thanks, and I mean that from the bottom…;)


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

For those I may have hurt there were no intension to do so, he’s right let’s just move on…


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

Anyone that says it takes more than 5 yrs of VT training to be good is either not knowledgeable or is taking advantage of his students and dragging out his/her cirriculum for financial gain. I found this out when I first went to Gary Lam's place, which is a full time school set up. 6 mths there is like 2 yrs in most schools. I got 4-6hrs a day of training, with lots of critique from Sifu Lam, and plenty of quality training partners to learn from. It was a big difference from the 6-10 hrs a week when I first started learning WC, or even at the school I taught at which had 30hrs a week of training. The difference was the main instructor, Sifu Lam was there every minute, and available for hands on training and answering questions.

James

P.S. Bruce Lee was the Man. Anyone that denies his fighting ability or his WC suffers from a lack of WC/VT knowledge. If you think because he didn't learn the entire Mok Jong form that he doesn't understand what WC is about, just simply doesn't know what WC is.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post, James (Sihing)...Yeah, with a good instructor who's on board with teaching you as much as you're able to digest as quickly as possible, it really shouldn't take more than 5 years or so to get good at wing chun.

And yeah, Bruce was the man! :cool:

......................................

And guys, let me bring you up to speed about Ali Rahim, as he's been here on-and-off numerous times (and I've lost track of how many times the "off" position was because he was banned by the moderator).

The guy absolutely positively feeds off the attention he gets by being sooooooooo contrary and sooooooo willing to make every thread he participates in become some sort of (in his own mind) referendom on his....

cough, cough :eek:.....accomplishments, skill level, knowledge, etc.

It almost never fails.

Which is why I finally determined (yeah, I took the bait many times myself) to ignore his posts almost completely. ;)

[Ali. R]

Victor,

It’s a known fact that I was banned because of my religious belief, as you tried most often to make people believe that I was a danger to national security and it worked, most of all I can prove it…:D

I was banned one time and I still have the letters from the Mod that said why (Classic), basically he talked about sleeper cells (words used/sleeper cells and others) and how I can control them, I have it all here all my PC…

Just read it for factual reasons…
That I can control them from my signature when I wrote in Arabic (fact)…

Sh!t like that, always come back and bites you in the a$$…

But someone over him knew better and that’s why I’m here (good people)…

Let's just move on!


Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

:confused:
Victor,

It’s a known fact that I was banned because of my religious belief, as you tried most often to make people believe that I was a danger to national security and it worked, most of all I can prove it…:D

I was banned one time and I still have the letters from the Mod that said why (Classic), basically he talked about sleeper cells (words used/sleeper cells and others) and how I can control them, I have it all here all my PC…

Just read it for factual reasons…
That I can control them from my signature when I wrote in Arabic (fact)…

Sh!t like that, always come back and bites you in the a$$…

But someone over him knew better and that’s why I’m here (good people)…

Let's just move on!


Ali Rahim.

Hello Ali,

I want to make it clear that you were never banned for "religous" reasons or any such ilke.

I would also challenge you to produce any of the alleged conversations from the "moderator" and yourself. I fully give you MY permission to put ANYTHING I said to you up for all to see. I would be very interested to see ANYTHING from you which would support your above claims, at least as far as this forum goes.

[Ali. R]

I have sent the letters to well over a half dozen people that have e-mailed me, you need to stop and let it die, there are plenty of people that followed it closely, and who has remember the truth…

And if they want to speak then let them speak...

It’s in your nature to debunk it (challenge), and that is all I will get from you… Let those who followed me (when I’d posted) that said that they remember what happen come out, I will not debate a politician…

I can care less on how you feel or what you think because everyone knows what happen… I will not allow you to lick your wounds on my behalf and fu*k with my mind…

If you have nothing to say about the subject at hand then take your fu*king question marks somewhere else, and let this thread die...

You are sitting there saying that nobody remembers what happen, and that you didn’t ban me for typing Arabic in my signature everyone remembers that ...

That all by itself was wrong has hell…


Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

I have sent the letters to well over a half dozen people that have e-mailed me, you need to stop and let it die, there are plenty of people that followed it closely, and who has remember the truth…

And if they want to speak then let them speak...

It’s in your nature to debunk it (challenge), and that is all I will get from you… Let those who followed me (when I’d posted) that said that they remember what happen come out, I will not debate a politician…

I can care less on how you feel or what you think because everyone knows what happen… I will not allow you to lick your wounds on my behalf and fu*k with my mind…

If you have nothing to say about the subject at hand then take your fu*king question marks somewhere else, and let this thread die...

You are sitting there saying that nobody remembers what happen, and that you didn’t ban me for typing Arabic in my signature everyone remembers that ...

That all by itself was wrong has hell…


Ali Rahim.

Ali,

I normally do not like to be so blunt.....but to put it simply you are a liar and a fool. You cry race when there is no race card, my ex-wife is black and we have three wonderful children, not to mention my son whose mother is Jamacian. You need only talk to those who know or work with me to realize just how unimportant race is to me. Unfortunately idiots come in all shades and colors ;).

You cry religous oppression when I have several friends who are muslim, jewish and many other groups. I believe that one should be judged on their actions not on their looks or beliefs.

You cry foul when your own mouth and attitude bring you to task, yet come running to the "moderator" when someone offends you. :p

You now have the nerve to spout falsehoods in an attempt to make yourself look better. Well, perhaps you can fool some of the people but I dare to state that many will see through and discern the truth.

Again, if you have "proof" present it so all can judge for themselves. I know this will not happen because the only "proof" you have is in your own deluded mind. Besides, I thought we communicated through Private Messages.....I can't recall ever sending you any "letters".

If your actions here are any indication of your Wing Chun skills then I have no doubt of your true abilities. Perhaps that is why you post references to young boxers because you have yet to produce any true Wing Chun practicianers.

To everyone else, please forgive this small tirade. To Ali I call them as I see them and I have no doubt everyone should be able to discern my disdain for someone unable to take responsibility for their own actions and blame everyone else.

To cry race or religion when no oppression exists in those areas shows a poor moral character among other things.

[anerlich]

you need to stop and let it die

It was dead until you revived it. Get over it and yourself.

[Ali. R]

You need to stop!

I told you this would come back and bite you in the a$$

I’m going to respect the forum first, something you know nothing about because you would have said why I was banned and not try to drag people under the bus with you like you did in your first post dealing with this matter….


at least as far as this forum goes.

The forum didn’t do anything it was your dumb a$$…

Is it true that you told me; “if I use Arabic you would banned me” (for the second time)…

You said I couldn’t produce any wing chun practitioners, I have one that I would love you to spar, better yet spar me if you think I’m weak…

That has nothing to do with the issues; you are only trying to get me mad and everyone can see right through that…

Never once did you say why I was banned and proved it; like the many e-mails that I’ve gotten said that you have to show why I was banned (all by yourself)… You had plenty off time to do so but you didn’t…

I don’t have to prove nothing and by the way this threads is going the more you don’t say kicks you in the a$$…

The way you put it nothing happen at all and from the e-mails I’m getting there was no reason why I should have been banned…

You were a big man back then, but you are not so comfortable with it now, are you?

I’ve just gotten over 4 more e-mails (jerk) that said they remember the conversion about my Arabic writing and how you refuse to let me quote the ‘Koran’ I told you it was wrong, now look at you scramble with lies (politician)…

You just don’t know how much satisfaction I’m getting out of this (a man and his word is nothing)…

Why do you think nobody is coming to your rescue, they may start too suck it after this post (boys)…

This is about him and me...



Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

Hi Ali,

Again you are living in a delusional world. Kind of like living in the suburbs and claiming to live within the most dangerous part of the city :rolleyes:

For once and for all you were never banned for using Arabic in your signature nor for any religous reasons. Since you want to reference the Koran; perhaps you should go and read it a little, then try to apply some of its principles and teachings to your own life. ;)

You can call me all the names you wish, it will not change anything.

As to meeting and sparring, since I live in Georgia there is always the possibility that I could make a trip, of course since your website is not working one wonders how one would find you :( Perhaps not at a Wing Chun gym but either a boxing or disco establishment.

I am easy to find should you ever wish to visit Georgia. Shoot me a PM and I will gladly give you my address and even directions on how to get here. Shoot, if you wanted to fly in I would meet you at the airport and give you a ride. We could shoot a video so there could be no dispute of the outcome and, nice guy that I am, I would even give you a ride to the hospital afterwards. ;) Or if things went the other way perhaps you would be kind enough to drive me :D

As to your getting emails: I am glad someone supports you, that is an important portion of our own determining of self worth, relying on what others think.

Again, I challenge you to produce any evidence supporting your outlandish claims. Once again I know this is not coming as you are a.......how should I say it? "GLORIFIED MOUTHBOXER" You are like a summer wind...a little impressive but without much substance. ;)

Oh, I guess since Gene does the actual banning you are saying he is also some sort of racist/religous intolerant. I wonder is he could produce anything to support your claims as to why you were banned............somehow I doubt anything would support your point of view.

Ali, I wish you luck in your life. I now understand why you lost your girl, your place in the suburbs of Detroit and moved all the way to Kentucky. I guess when this is little to chopse from anyone can teach and be thought of as somewhat good. A big fish in a small pond so to speak.

A bit of advice though, if you do not change your ways they will run you out of Kentucky much like you had to leave Detroit.

[Ali. R]

I don’t have a clue on what you're taking about, I’ve been married to the same woman for 20 years… You MF :mad:

My wife is here with me right now you fu*cking wad...

I left Detroit because of my wife (Dr.) got a job as a plant manger here in ‘Kentucky’ In which double both or our salaries together, there are no jobs in Michigan…

My wife and I, and children have always been together, a$$hole…

It’s way to many people that know my wife here in Kentucky (jerk)…

You just pulled that right out of your a$$…

Just tell the truth and don’t talk crap about my students/family and stay on subject because nobody believes you dude, from where I’m setting and many more it took you way to long to answer those question in which should have came out freely and willingly…

But you choose to talk **** smack about my family and students...

And you never came out with why I was banned because there was no reason, but what I’ve been saying all along…

Now you want to throw Gene under the bus with you how typical, he didn’t say those things to me, it was not the forum or my family and students, it was you…

Don’t wish me luck, you no where to stick that…

(Politician)


Ali Rihim.

[Sihing73]

I don’t have a clue on what you're taking about, I’ve been married to the same woman for 20 years… You MF :mad:

My wife is here with me right now you fu*cking wad...

Just tell the truth and don’t talk crap about my students/family and stay on subject because nobody believes you dude, from where I’m setting and many more it took you way to long to answer those question in which should have came out freely and willingly…

And you never came out with why I was banned because there was no reason, but what I’ve been saying all along…

Now you want to throw Gene under the bus with you how typical, he didn’t say those things to me, it was not the forum or my family and students, it was you…

Ali Rihim.


Hi Ali,

So someone could stand you for all those years, congrats :D Or is she doing community service :confused:

Are you like the sun or some other star, you said from where you were "setting". Perhaps in addition to the many other things you should look into, basic grammer shoul be one of them. :p

Ali, I did not throw Gene under the bus as you put it. I simply pointed out that there are others who could more easiliy shed true light on the subject. I doubt if Gene would allow me to have someone banned for the reasons you cite.

Let's be honest, you can not stand being called to tell the truth. It is far easier for you to believe you were somehow oppressed rather than admit that you were banned for continued trash talk and inciting others on the forum.

When you first came on the forum you accused me of being racist. I did not even have to respond to that as others here let you know that was not the case.

Now you are crying religion as the reason or the putting of arabic in your sig. More falsehoods.

You are the one who can not stand the truth. I am not sure if you are really as stupid as you seem or if you are simply delusional. Either way it is a sad state of affairs.

If you can not produce anything to substantiate your claims then by default you must be incorrect or an outright liar. I'll bet you know which one my moneys on. :D

[Ali. R]

Nobody believes you…

See, you are a moderator and you should be leading by example and not be-little someone’s wife and family and it only proves my case even more (your hate)…



Ali, I did not throw Gene under the bus as you put it. I simply pointed out that there are others who could more easiliy shed true light on the subject. I doubt if Gene would allow me to have someone banned for the reasons you cite.


Then you lied to him as well...

I understand your frustrations but keep my family out of this sh*t, I will not bring your wife or kids into this…

Fu*king Politician,


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Nobody believes you…

See, you are a moderator and you should be leading by example and not be-little someone’s wife and family and it only proves my case even more (your hate)…

I understand your frustrations but keep my family out of this sh*t, I will not bring your wife or kids into this…

Fu*king Politician,


Ali Rahim.

I don't think you should speak for others. You don't know whether I believe him or not. ;)

And I think you BOTH should let it go. Andn that means to stop posting.

[Ali. R]

When I was saying no one believes him I’m referring to the people that wrote me…

Sorry for the misunderstanding…


Ali Rahim.

[TenTigers]

It’s way to many people that know my wife here in Kentucky …


sorry, I know what you were TRYING to say, it's just funny the way it came out!
Don't get offended, Ali, I'm not taking sides, just finding humor and perhaps lightening the atmosphere around here.

[Ali. R]

sorry, I know what you were TRYING to say, it's just funny the way it came out!
Don't get offended, Ali, I'm not taking sides, just finding humor and perhaps lightening the atmosphere around here.

I like to thank you both for the lighter-side of things, I’m just mad as h*ll...

Everything is everything (you are a good person)…


Ali Rahim.

[Wayfaring]

I don't think you should speak for others. You don't know whether I believe him or not. ;)

Of course I know whether you believe him or not. You don't believe anyone. Unless they are swimming or fighting. And then you don't believe they are REALLY swimming or fighting.

:D

But yeah, Ali just let it go. I think if I got banned from anywhere, and told my wife I got banned from posting on teh Interw3bz, she'd probably say "Good - they beat me from banning you by about 5 min. Now why don't you make yourself useful and go walk the dog".

Anyways, best wishes in training & your new job and family.

Dave you too. You guys don't get spun up. We can all meet up and do steel cage matches when the economy turns around.

[Sihing73]

Hello Everyone,

My appoligies to the rest of the forum. I just do not like being accused of something I did not do, Lord knows there are plenty of things I have done which I could be taken to task for ;)

In any event, I will let it go and not post regarding this matter any longer.

Once the economy picks up then any who can visit my neck of the woods is welcome to do so, I will BBQ and we can work out or talk.

No steel cages, I prefer tin as it is easier to get out of if things go bad.

[t_niehoff]

Of course I know whether you believe him or not. You don't believe anyone.

Not quite correct. I don't accept anything on faith. And I run everything through my highly sensitive bullsh1t detector (critical thinking). You see, I have an extreme distaste for bullsh1t. Though it seems a very popular flavor.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No need to apologize, Sihing73...

This guy always brings it upon himself, without fail - including it getting to the point where people start openly saying that they're willing to take him up upon his challenges and provocations.

Was there myself about 5-6 years ago as well, as you may recall.

It's best to just ignore this guy, but I only posted so as to give some folks who aren't familiar with him and his tactics/motivations a heads-up.

[Ali. R]

Ok Victor,

Come see me Victor, no its and buts just come see, and let’s get this over with once and for all (don’t back down)!

I will paid for your ticket and room; god is my secret judge I will do that, or stop talking sh!t…

We will make the plans right here for a friendly match, would anyone here help broker the match and received the money?

Just come see me (or is it more st!t to come for you)…


Ali Rahim.