How is Praying Mantis kicking different from kickboxing?

[diego]

I'm working on my footwork drills looking for research material to help me train smarter in my style, I figure look at all of the systems around yours to see if you have any weaknesses...

spinning heel kick: http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=pvn&q=how%20to%20heel%20kick%20in%20kickboxing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

I was going to post all the kick vid's american and thai boxers use, but really when you do kick combo's most kicks look the same...it's not too much stylistic variation.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-do-a-ninjutus-two-hand-sweep-and-kick-114829/

how does your style differ from Kick Boxing Western and Muay Thai?.

[OCCOBRA]

Monkey footwork. Lots of sweeping and feints. Comparing apples to oranges.

[diego]

Monkey footwork. Lots of sweeping and feints. Comparing apples to oranges.

sorry this isn't about comparing, i know what kickboxing kicks look like, I'm having a hard time finding kung fu kicking footwork.:)

[TenTigers]

I believe White ape Steals The Peach has a roundhouse kick in it?

[Tensei85]

Also the 6th road in Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy (shi si lu tan tui) has a kick similar to a roundhouse. As far as footwork goes from my perspective we throw kicks from mainly a fighting stance 60-40 weight distribution and utilize kicks from various footworks but not really anything unique besides maybe chat sing bou & dan sihk which seem to be our cornerstone.

[MightyB]

I'm working on my footwork drills looking for research material to help me train smarter in my style, I figure look at all of the systems around yours to see if you have any weaknesses...

spinning heel kick: http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=pvn&q=how%20to%20heel%20kick%20in%20kickboxing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

I was going to post all the kick vid's american and thai boxers use, but really when you do kick combo's most kicks look the same...it's not too much stylistic variation.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-do-a-ninjutus-two-hand-sweep-and-kick-114829/

how does your style differ from Kick Boxing Western and Muay Thai?.

You're overthinking kicking too much. Kick low, kick hard, and don't hang your leg for a catch. Use pads to drill. About the only difference I've seen in KF kicking vs Karate and other things is in the "push kick" (or foot jab). KF uses the whole foot or heel, Karate and TKD use the ball of the foot. Also - my sifu wants us to chamber the "push Kick" tight - think two to three palm to finger tip lengths from the bag tight.

Footwork has to be light and fast in a san shou match. Jump rope and spar and you'll develop the footwork naturally.

[MightyB]

also- in you're post on the main forum you were asking about the round kick and why kf doesn't seem to do it--- we do- we just never, NEVER, open (first move to bridge the gap) with a round or any type of kick that exposes the groin. Typically a Mantis master wouldn't initiate offensively with a kick in a serious fight. You'll see good mantis players playing with a kick to open when they're just messing around - but it's not a good habit to get in.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is a clip of students kick sparring.
They can't punch, only kick.

The kicks look like kicks of other styles.
The main difference between this kicking style and some other schools is they way that they are taught.

The result being that there is never a peroid where no one is kicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGxHqL0GfKg

[diego]

You're overthinking kicking too much. Kick low, kick hard, and don't hang your leg for a catch. Use pads to drill. About the only difference I've seen in KF kicking vs Karate and other things is in the "push kick" (or foot jab). KF uses the whole foot or heel, Karate and TKD use the ball of the foot. Also - my sifu wants us to chamber the "push Kick" tight - think two to three palm to finger tip lengths from the bag tight.

Footwork has to be light and fast in a san shou match. Jump rope and spar and you'll develop the footwork naturally.
I def' overthink things...but the net is not what it could be for Gung Fu promotion:) I have four hours of private video from my teachers seniors which i won't be allowed to put online prolly for like 15 more years. I'm hoping by making threads like this in every forum some old chinese kid may get bored and decide to share his uncles twenty hours of Dog Style kicks:D

[diego]

Also the 6th road in Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy (shi si lu tan tui) has a kick similar to a roundhouse. As far as footwork goes from my perspective we throw kicks from mainly a fighting stance 60-40 weight distribution and utilize kicks from various footworks but not really anything unique besides maybe chat sing bou & dan sihk which seem to be our cornerstone.

60-40 interesting what's the intent behind this...safety of footwork? Ring fighters usually go from a 50-50 base I heard...any one know why?.

[diego]

also- in you're post on the main forum you were asking about the round kick and why kf doesn't seem to do it--- we do- we just never, NEVER, open (first move to bridge the gap) with a round or any type of kick that exposes the groin. Typically a Mantis master wouldn't initiate offensively with a kick in a serious fight. You'll see good mantis players playing with a kick to open when they're just messing around - but it's not a good habit to get in.

right good point about never Open, the cma tactics I learned is all pickpocket style, one hand is always hidden or likes to be;) Low sweep kicks and Crescent kicks have all of the mechanics of a Thai Shin kick, i thought it was interesting the issue of CMA not using them:cool:

[diego]

Here is a clip of students kick sparring.
They can't punch, only kick.

The kicks look like kicks of other styles.
The main difference between this kicking style and some other schools is they way that they are taught.

The result being that there is never a peroid where no one is kicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGxHqL0GfKg

looks very fun...I like the idea behind gaurd with your elbows/limbs then you get to play...sweet. Is this a drill you guys recently adapted or is it something Mantis has always been in to?...I know PM is very specialized power development from the little I have seen...Got to meet Jon Funk and a few of his seniors last year at the Tiger Balms...I imagine Mantis Leg development is very advanced Chinese fitness.

[Tensei85]

the 60-40 is based on the expression of seung kua or which type of stance work is being used not to say that every posture is 60-40.

[diego]

the 60-40 is based on the expression of seung kua or which type of stance work is being used not to say that every posture is 60-40.

Is it 60 on the rear leg and 40 on the lead and I'm unfamiliar with the term Seung Kua?.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:__RpBHRP6ZUJ:ezine.kungfumagazine.c om/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D43635+why+do+boxers+use+50/50+stance&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

I'm guessing 50/50 footwork is good for the ring making the first attack, 60/40 may be better for defense...

[MightyB]

natural fighting posture is closer to 50/50 with the weight transitioning forward or backward depending on the situation. Knees are bent. In the modern era, Weight is carried in the toes.

classic kf is knees bent - 40 front 60 back - heel to toe walking - no hunching at the waist - head in natural alignment with the spine, use the lead foot to close off the groin - and use footwork to dominate your opponent's center of balance.

Both work - just depends on what you're comfortable doing.

[diego]

natural fighting posture is closer to 50/50 with the weight transitioning forward or backward depending on the situation. Knees are bent. In the modern era, Weight is carried in the toes.

classic kf is knees bent - 40 front 60 back - heel to toe walking - no hunching at the waist - head in natural alignment with the spine, use the lead foot to close off the groin - and use footwork to dominate your opponent's center of balance.

Both work - just depends on what you're comfortable doing.

right 60/40 helps you go 10/90 and ram his foundation with yer bow stance. Gotcha:cool:

[diego]

most mantis kicks are performed low.

The roundhouse kicks are not quite, and are usually referred to as a "door closing kick", highest target would be the floating ribs, the supporting leg does not pivot as you do in japanese/korean/kickboxing styles, the kicking leg must still turn over tho. These are seen in very many mantis sets, usually accompanied by the "monks palm set". Used as a defensive move followed by a retreat. This move is in Tang Lang Tao Toe, Tang Lang Chu Tong, Tang Lang Xuan Bu, etc..

Side kicks are performed in a similar fashion, with the supporting leg not pivoting but the kicking leg turned over.

Front kicks are one of the few that go higher than the ribs with the "chest piercing" and "throat piercing kicks", also the toes are curled into knuckles for groing and rib kicks, this is also used in okinawan karate. The few jump kicks that are in mantis are usually front kicks thrown in pairs, usually called "mandarin duck kicks", becuase mandarin ducks mate for life so they always come in pairs.

Shuttle kicks (stop kicks), which are also common in wing chun, used for stoppin the opponents forward motion, also good for jamming the hip, knee, and if your really flexible the jaw.

Whirlwind kicks (jump spinning crescent kicks) are also found occasionally depending on your style and line.

Cross leg heel kicks (eg. end of road 1 in beng bu before arm bar)

I would also say that most modern mantis schools have incorporated the more powerful japanese/korean/thai kicking methods on top of the more accurate/sharp chinese style of kicking.

also, jon funk is a tool.

Thanks for the reply. What about low sweeping kicks in PM?. I was shown to use them as a hidden move like you box up right with your opponent and then suddenly drop and back sweep to take out his balance and then come up into say lead bow stance and double tiger claw his groin and face...this drill is in a few of the Kajukenbo-Hop gar sets I was shown. I read Hop Gar likes to do the hitting strategy where you hit him in one spot and then come from a blind angle to confuse him..I have to look up the theory terminology to describe it better.:cool:

[diego]

I consider sweeps and toppling motions to be seperate from kicking motions, they are written with a different character and apply different applications of force. The spinning low sweep you speak of is not common at all in mantis, and actually violates quite a few of the core principles. I don't know of a single form or technique which contains that move.

Common mantis sweeps.

7 Star sweep, Left hand grabs opponents left arm, right hand across top to throat, right leg sweeps opponents left leg from behind.

7 Star Topple, left hand grabs opponents arm, left leg serves as a post for their right leg to trip over, right hand applies force

Praying mantis topple, same as 7 star topple, but you sink and use the circle entering stance to trap opponents right leg

Toppling Palm, left hand grabs right arm, right leg kicks out opponents right leg, right hand applies force, end in a bow and arrow stance perpindicular to opponent.

Big wheel toppling, same as toppling palm but end in horse stance with big chopping strike to chest.

:D maybe I saw that sweep in wu-shu and confused contemporary with traditional...lol

Thanks for the kicking info it's much appreciated.

[TaichiMantis]

Another main difference is targets. Kickboxing has limited targets, mantis goes for joints and soft targets such as knees, inside of thigh, groin. It also uses kicks to simultaneously strike and avoid. Here are some excerpts from articles by my kung fu uncle, Professor Randy Choy, talking about leg strikes (kicks) in bung bo and lan jie chuan (cck tcpm versions).


Don't forget about the leg strikes. In this boxing form, I have identified four basic leg strikes to practice. The first leg strike is the "Scoop the Crotch Leg" (Liao Yin Tui) found in posture 3. The second is the "Mandarin duck leg" (Yuan Yang Tui) found in posture 53. The third leg strike is the "Leg bump" (Zha Tui), a strike to your opponent's knee and shin area, executed as a hidden strike after performing "Agile cat capturing a rat." The fourth leg strikes is also a hidden strike called, "Sprouting leg" (Jiu Tui) executed while delivering sideways striking. In the "Rules of Chuan," you want to "Simultaneously kick with evasive body movements" (Jiao Qu Shen Li). Think about it.


Referring to the "Rules of Chuan," there is the "Kicking techniques using evasive body movements" (Jiao Qu Shen Li), found in posture 43, "Mandarin duck kick" and in posture 52, "Whirlwind kick."