How is Wing Chun kicking different from kickboxing?

[diego]

I'm working on my footwork drills looking for research material to help me train smarter in my style, I figure look at all of the systems around yours to see if you have any weaknesses...

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=pvn&q=how%20to%20heel%20kick%20in%20kickboxing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

I was going to post all the kick vid's american and thai boxers use, but really when you do kick combo's most kicks look the same...it's not too much stylistic variation.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-do-a-ninjutus-two-hand-sweep-and-kick-114829/

how does your style differ from Kick Boxing Western and Muay Thai?.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'm working on my footwork drills looking for research material to help me train smarter in my style, I figure look at all of the systems around yours to see if you have any weaknesses...

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=pvn&q=how%20to%20heel%20kick%20in%20kickboxing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

I was going to post all the kick vid's american and thai boxers use, but really when you do kick combo's most kicks look the same...it's not too much stylistic variation.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-do-a-ninjutus-two-hand-sweep-and-kick-114829/

how does your style differ from Kick Boxing Western and Muay Thai?.
In general, WC emphasizes low-line kicking, center line protection, and simultaneous hands and feet.

For my style, we have the classical WC kicking where you try to stay pretty square and you don't turn the hip over fully. The difference between the types of kicks is foot turning to a large degree.


In your second clip, the ninja, he is also a WC man. The style of kicking that he was doing would fall under classical-style kicking by my way of thinking.

[chusauli]

WCK stomps. The hip is extended and we generally use the heel. We generally don't do snappy type kicks. Also we generally kick when we can't miss. We also kick the supporting leg, or the kick coming to us, and we control the leg that is kicking at us.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

[Lee Chiang Po]

Kick boxing was real popular back in the 60's and 70's, and most of these guys trained TKD, the korean Karate style. They tend to favor lots of kicks, even really high head kicks. But, I suppose that there had to be some that trained other kicking styles too. Boxing with the use of the feet in kicking did not usually hold to any particular style of kicking.
I would think that if you wanted to be really practical you would want to use a kicking system that did not put you into danger. When high kicking you have to go up on one foot and you are not balanced when you are slinging a leg around like that. I personally feel that if you use the stomping, punching type of kicks and keep them from waiste level and down, you will be more able to devastate your opponent. Wing chun kicks are designed to deliver serious force into a vulnerable area. I am not saying that kicks of other styles are not effective, but some of the more dashing styles that exibit high and jumping kicks can leave you in a real vulnerable situation if you slip or miss your target.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun kicks are really useful for street fighting and self defense.

How ever if you wish to win in full contact karate tournment or the Tae Kwon Do olympics you may need to adopt either high kicks or very strong body strike.

For instance in these two types of tournments High Kickers are favored an the rules or fashion for them. There is no punching the face in full contact karate only the body. So you will need a makarwa board to develop that sort of power to do damage you want to make the kicker stop. But since all punches are to the chest and stomach and all kicks are to the head you are kinda of at a disadvantage. In those sort of competitions interceptiong and catching a high kick is not allowed really. In Fact blocking kicks is said to be unwise and not endorsed. Many of those competitions do not allow check kicks or stomp kicks to the kicking leg. So you are not allowed to defend with your feet. In fact it is emphasized you kick above the waist. Which eliminates many sweeping techniques you wish to imploy.

If you do then you receive a violation for doing an illegal technique.

But low range kicks should always be used in actual fighting in the street. There may sitituations where even that rule should be broken. The majority of the time in the street You don't want to kick about waist!

Alot of Wing Chun Fighters today don't strecth so they can not kick above the waist anyway. Ha Ha...

So in a competition where you can only strike the head with your feet than you may get knocked out. But if you can attack the head with your fist and legs with your feet then you may prevail if you have enough skill.

[monji112000]

I'm working on my footwork drills looking for research
.............
how does your style differ from Kick Boxing Western and Muay Thai?.

Wing Chun as taught by Ip Man has a "round kick". It wasn't tought to everyone.. and/or some people didn't like it so they opted out in using it and teaching it.

Its not like the Thai style or the karate style. Its really not as powerful as the thai kick. Its classified as a "sweep".. but its really not a sweep. If you watch Bas Rutten do a Thai kick the body mechanics are similar. You don't pivot on the balls of your feel and you traditionally kick the knee. This has a higher chance of making him fall down. Many of the kicks seem to me to be that way.. make him fall. I have seen it used for the midsection though, and I don't see why you couldn't adapt it to other parts of the body. Its not a "high kick".

Its used in combination, not as a separate attack, like all other WC kicks.

I like it better than the Thai Round kick, but that kick is super powerful.. so its just as good. I also like the Karate style also.. people dis the snapping kick.. but it works. :(

[Phil Redmond]

WCK stomps. The hip is extended and we generally use the heel. We generally don't do snappy type kicks. Also we generally kick when we can't miss. We also kick the supporting leg, or the kick coming to us, and we control the leg that is kicking at us.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
That was well put. :)

[diego]

Wing Chun kicks are really useful for street fighting and self defense.

How ever if you wish to win in full contact karate tournment or the Tae Kwon Do olympics you may need to adopt either high kicks or very strong body strike.

For instance in these two types of tournments High Kickers are favored an the rules or fashion for them. There is no punching the face in full contact karate only the body. So you will need a makarwa board to develop that sort of power to do damage you want to make the kicker stop. But since all punches are to the chest and stomach and all kicks are to the head you are kinda of at a disadvantage. In those sort of competitions interceptiong and catching a high kick is not allowed really. In Fact blocking kicks is said to be unwise and not endorsed. Many of those competitions do not allow check kicks or stomp kicks to the kicking leg. So you are not allowed to defend with your feet. In fact it is emphasized you kick above the waist. Which eliminates many sweeping techniques you wish to imploy.

If you do then you receive a violation for doing an illegal technique.

But low range kicks should always be used in actual fighting in the street. There may sitituations where even that rule should be broken. The majority of the time in the street You don't want to kick about waist!

Alot of Wing Chun Fighters today don't strecth so they can not kick above the waist anyway. Ha Ha...

So in a competition where you can only strike the head with your feet than you may get knocked out. But if you can attack the head with your fist and legs with your feet then you may prevail if you have enough skill.
Okay, I see why everyone got "kick" crazy in the 80's thinking that they look like Jon Claude Van Damme:D It makes sense to me why they promoted the no head shot fitness MA no one gets injured too bad as beginners can't kick at head height with power and specializing on the lower body as an offensive weapon you get a nice overall workout. MMA is more Champion based TKD promotes team fitness. TMA is some good **** to use as an old man aided by NINJA weapons.

I'm so carrying a revolver when I'm 70 and the Arthritis kicks in...

[diego]

That was well put. :)

...Yep:cool:

[diego]

Wing Chun as taught by Ip Man has a "round kick". It wasn't tought to everyone.. and/or some people didn't like it so they opted out in using it and teaching it.

Its not like the Thai style or the karate style. Its really not as powerful as the thai kick. Its classified as a "sweep".. but its really not a sweep. If you watch Bas Rutten do a Thai kick the body mechanics are similar. You don't pivot on the balls of your feel and you traditionally kick the knee. This has a higher chance of making him fall down. Many of the kicks seem to me to be that way.. make him fall. I have seen it used for the midsection though, and I don't see why you couldn't adapt it to other parts of the body. Its not a "high kick".

Its used in combination, not as a separate attack, like all other WC kicks.

I like it better than the Thai Round kick, but that kick is super powerful.. so its just as good. I also like the Karate style also.. people dis the snapping kick.. but it works. :(

when you have the time could you find a clip of bas rutten I'd like to get a better visual...i've seen clips of most of Yip Man's WC. Cheers

James

[monji112000]

when you have the time could you find a clip of bas rutten I'd like to get a better visual...i've seen clips of most of Yip Man's WC. Cheers

James

I couldn't find a clip of him doing it, but if you have his book (some gave it to me as a gift) he is very clear on what he feels works for him. He doesn't rotate on the balls of his feet. the way he moves his feet and opening up the hip.. (sorry the only way I describe it). Duncan Leung Teaches it in his kicking DVD. If you search youtube for Allan Lee he has a video of that kick doing "kicking training". Its the one were they aren't really sparring but pretend to be. :D IE.. like 0 contact.
The way its shown is by loading to get torque, you don't have to do it that way. Most of the Kicks in WC are not used today or are not understood. I'm sure you can think of many reasons why. Most people will say thats not even WC, or that goes against some fictitious "law". I can hear someone saying that you can't turn like that or use a circular attack.. its not WC :D

[diego]

I couldn't find a clip of him doing it, but if you have his book (some gave it to me as a gift) he is very clear on what he feels works for him. He doesn't rotate on the balls of his feet. the way he moves his feet and opening up the hip.. (sorry the only way I describe it). Duncan Leung Teaches it in his kicking DVD. If you search youtube for Allan Lee he has a video of that kick doing "kicking training". Its the one were they aren't really sparring but pretend to be. :D IE.. like 0 contact.
The way its shown is by loading to get torque, you don't have to do it that way. Most of the Kicks in WC are not used today or are not understood. I'm sure you can think of many reasons why. Most people will say thats not even WC, or that goes against some fictitious "law". I can hear someone saying that you can't turn like that or use a circular attack.. its not WC :D

I'm sure Chapters or Indigo has some Bas books I'll check next time I pass by one of them, I'm familiar with the WC masters you mentioned through the KF media I'll take a look at their drills, thanks.

It's too bad CMA is so closed-door...you really have to think of the right words to run a search on Google;):D

[Mr Punch]

... Also we generally kick when we can't miss. ...Good post. This part too... I've heard an adage 'Kick with three legs, not one.' I.e., when you have some bridge on your opponent and can use their balance to help you keep yours. This doesn't have to be a grab, you can, for example, go to sweep his front leg forcing him to double-weight and then use whatever part of your body is touching him (or whatever part of his body you hit him with) to stabilize you while you sweep/stamp in the opposite direction.


... When high kicking you have to go up on one foot and you are not balanced when you are slinging a leg around like that...For my preferences, I agree with your favoured kicks but I don't agree with this. I think it's a really dangerous fallacy that gets you KOed with a head kick to believe that a trained practitioner kicking high is going to be any more unstable than someone kicking low.

My karate sempai could kick with little telegraphing if any, from the same range as a punch, with enough power and speed to take your head off, and there's no way you could sweep/attack his post leg in time: it is too reactive and he was very very strongly rooted. Don't forget, the whole of their bodyweight is on one leg instead of two, and spinning at some speed: to get enough stopping power with an intercepting knee stomp kick for example is pretty much fantasy, unless you feint to set him up, which personally sounds like sparring and not the straight-in principle of wing chun I like.

I've trained with Thai boxers, kyokushin and allsorts who reinforced this opinion.

BTW, I'm with monji on the round kick, and no, it's not very common: I doubt you've seen it, Diego, if you're still after a description/vid. I would agree also about not using it higher than the waist (our target is usually the knee or a little above) but if he's moved his knee up like a Thai block or something you can continue on pretty much the same path with the same dynamics and turn it into a knee to the ribs/chest (it'&s a bit more like a bong gerk at that point). We have the same with tan gerk too btw, but you really need to train that as hip the adductors (is it?!) aren't naturally strong in that plane.

Also, there's a side kick with a big chamber in my friend's wing chun (he's pretty close to the root of his YM line), looks kind of like a back kick in TKD. That's for when you really need to step off line and get some distance, or for if you've messed up your bong gerk.

[anerlich]

There is no punching the face in full contact karate only the body.

That's true of Kyokushin rules where no gloves are worn. Other full contact karate rules may allow punches to the head. And in any case, the thread was about kickboxing, not Olympic TKD or competitive karate.


So you will need a makarwa board to develop that sort of power to do damage you want to make the kicker stop.

Not necessarily. Many boxers who have never touched a makiwara could quite easily put you out of action with body shots.


Many of those competitions do not allow check kicks or stomp kicks to the kicking leg. So you are not allowed to defend with your feet.

B0ll0cks. You can use leg checks with the shin and stop kicks to the body to defend, once again, depending on the rules.

MMA rules allow you do do just about everything you incorrectly claim you can't do in "Full Contact Karate".

[Mr Punch]

Good points Andrew. Plus, many of the kyokushin schools over here allow head shots full contact in the dojo, it's just allowed in tournaments.

BTW, you don't need to use anti-censor measures for bollocks. Or wanker or the like... it's proper English, so it isn't censored! :D

[diego]

WCK stomps. The hip is extended and we generally use the heel. We generally don't do snappy type kicks. Also we generally kick when we can't miss. We also kick the supporting leg, or the kick coming to us, and we control the leg that is kicking at us.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Hello, I've noticed your articles over the years as you wrote about Hop Gar...it always saddened me that you spoke about Wing Chun more as there is not much info in the western media about the Tibet styles...:)

I'm rehabbing an injury and then I'm going to get a job teaching fitness boot camps like $30-$60 bucks an hour and I gotta say this is a great interview talking about the state of Wing Chun Fitness: http://www.w1ng.com/wvtaa-2007-sifu-of-the-year-interview-with-rene-ritchie/#more-187

[diego]

spinning at some speed: to get enough stopping power with an intercepting knee stomp kick for example is pretty much fantasy


are you talking about using a stomp kick to stop hit his thrust or swing leg?.

[anerlich]

Good points Andrew. Plus, many of the kyokushin schools over here allow head shots full contact in the dojo, it's just allowed in tournaments.

I don't doubt it.


BTW, you don't need to use anti-censor measures for bollocks. Or wanker or the like... it's proper English, so it isn't censored!

Appreciate the tip, but ****her and ****geneous still run into probs :)

[chusauli]

Hello, I've noticed your articles over the years as you wrote about Hop Gar...it always saddened me that you spoke about Wing Chun more as there is not much info in the western media about the Tibet styles...:)

I'm rehabbing an injury and then I'm going to get a job teaching fitness boot camps like $30-$60 bucks an hour and I gotta say this is a great interview talking about the state of Wing Chun Fitness: http://www.w1ng.com/wvtaa-2007-sifu-of-the-year-interview-with-rene-ritchie/#more-187

Many thanks Diego!

Maybe we'll talk more about Hop Ga/Lama some time. Chuen, Pao, Cup is all you need! No sticking, mostly Chuen, Chon, Jeet, Sim, Tuen, Por. Maybe WCK can do some of these at long range.

Sorry to hear about your injury. Hopefully not serious. Many thanks for the comments on the interview. Rene Ritchie was very deserving the award and recognition.

Best regards,

[diego]

Many thanks Diego!

Maybe we'll talk more about Hop Ga/Lama some time. Chuen, Pao, Cup is all you need! No sticking, mostly Chuen, Chon, Jeet, Sim, Tuen, Por. Maybe WCK can do some of these at long range.

Sorry to hear about your injury. Hopefully not serious. Many thanks for the comments on the interview. Rene Ritchie was very deserving the award and recognition.

Best regards,

Cool, thanks for the kind words:)...Bruce Lee got me into TMA and I remember Rene was one of the main sources of info which I would frequently go to for research on Lee Jun Fan's mother style, it's cool to see things expanding!.

Cheers

[Violent Designs]

Shifu Chu, did you write an article on Hop Ga Kuen?

[chusauli]

No, not one article. Perhaps some mention of Lama in early columns. I spent quite a bit of personal time with Chan Tai Shan, but realized it was never ending with the forms. And I'm a guy who dislikes forms! Chan did eventually customize his teaching for me - making me concentrate on 3 core sets and stressed application and power development. You can look it up at my old site.

[Yoshiyahu]

If you find some videos please post a link...i would love to see it. Also is the round kick called Soh Gerk?


Is this an accurate vid of what you are talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAARon8tPdI




I couldn't find a clip of him doing it, but if you have his book (some gave it to me as a gift) he is very clear on what he feels works for him. He doesn't rotate on the balls of his feet. the way he moves his feet and opening up the hip.. (sorry the only way I describe it). Duncan Leung Teaches it in his kicking DVD. If you search youtube for Allan Lee he has a video of that kick doing "kicking training". Its the one were they aren't really sparring but pretend to be. :D IE.. like 0 contact.
The way its shown is by loading to get torque, you don't have to do it that way. Most of the Kicks in WC are not used today or are not understood. I'm sure you can think of many reasons why. Most people will say thats not even WC, or that goes against some fictitious "law". I can hear someone saying that you can't turn like that or use a circular attack.. its not WC :D


That's true of Kyokushin rules where no gloves are worn. Other full contact karate rules may allow punches to the head. And in any case, the thread was about kickboxing, not Olympic TKD or competitive karate.



Not necessarily. Many boxers who have never touched a makiwara could quite easily put you out of action with body shots.



B0ll0cks. You can use leg checks with the shin and stop kicks to the body to defend, once again, depending on the rules.

MMA rules allow you do do just about everything you incorrectly claim you can't do in "Full Contact Karate".


Okay I agree with you on the fact that some hard punching boxers who train a 200lb heavy bag frequently have major power in their punches. I totally agree. But most Martial Arts that do alot of kicking besides Karate do not possess that arm power. IE. One Hit one Kill. Or the one hitter quitter ability.

The Reason Why I made that statement is for those who choose not to cross train in high kicking techniques. Atleast in a tournment they have that punching power to body to train.

As for MMA rules allowing check kick and stop kicks? Do you have site that shows the rules which allows this?




Good points Andrew. Plus, many of the kyokushin schools over here allow head shots full contact in the dojo, it's just allowed in tournaments.

BTW, you don't need to use anti-censor measures for bollocks. Or wanker or the like... it's proper English, so it isn't censored! :D


Are you saying that in tournments that head shots are not allowed?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you saying that in tournments that head shots are not allowed?

Kyokushin tournaments are bare knuckle with no hand/arm strikes to the head, though you can kick to the head.
The exception being the IKO run by Royama I believe and they use padded gloves, and of course the Daido Juku with the gloves and the space helmet.
In the old days, kyokushin was the same, but had no weight classes, it changed over the years to over and under 90kilo ( 200lbs) and then to light, middle and HW, now I am not sure how many divisions there are.
Of course, in sparring, you SHOULD train with head shots and protective gear.

[Violent Designs]

No, not one article. Perhaps some mention of Lama in early columns. I spent quite a bit of personal time with Chan Tai Shan, but realized it was never ending with the forms. And I'm a guy who dislikes forms! Chan did eventually customize his teaching for me - making me concentrate on 3 core sets and stressed application and power development. You can look it up at my old site.

Thanks, I will go check it out. :)

[anerlich]

As for MMA rules allowing check kick and stop kicks? Do you have site that shows the rules which allows this?

I said they allow leg checks, with the shin/knee, NOT check kicks, though a cut kick counter to the inner thigh would be accpetable - similar to MT rules. A stop kick is a (usually) a kick to the body, which just about any rule set would allow.

Work on your reading comprehension.

I don't know about a rule set, but look at any UFC or Pride fight with an MT-trained stylist in it and I'm sure you'll find examples of both.


Are you saying that in tournments that head shots are not allowed?

Actually, Yoshiyahu, YOU said that (as regards punching, at least):


There is no punching the face in full contact karate only the body.

And you werre incorrect, as Sanjuro, Mr Ounch and I pointed out.