How is Gung Fu kicking different from kickboxing?

[diego]

I'm working on my footwork drills looking for research material to help me train smarter in my style, I figure look at all of the systems around yours to see if you have any weaknesses...

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=pvn&q=how%20to%20heel%20kick%20in%20kickboxing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

I was going to post all the kick vid's american and thai boxers use, but really when you do kick combo's most kicks look the same...it's not too much stylistic variation.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-do-a-ninjutus-two-hand-sweep-and-kick-114829/

how does your style differ from Kick Boxing Western and Muay Thai?.

[David Jamieson]

well for one thing, kicks to the sack are illegal in kickboxing. :)

I don't think shovel kicks to the knee are kosher either.

heel kick to sternum, hip, pubus mons no commonly seen.


round house kick isn't cma but is most common in kb and mt

stomping at the heel joint isn't common either.

I think it's about using specific targets and making the kick fit to that which is different whereas kb and mt shoot big guns at large targets.

head shots are a lucky go quite often.

[diego]

in kajukenbo we use short ball of foot roundhouse to groin you can use the toe with a shoe...was shown roundhouse with top of foot wearing shoe but it's not in the forms...does chinese use the top of foot snapping roundhouse like tkd?

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/sifu2.jpg

so if a karate guy and a buk sing clf guy is in a neutral stance and they stylistically step into this kick how is it different...pick any kung fu style to compare footwork.

[David Jamieson]

That pic of CTS seems to be showing a push kick or a heel kick to middle gate.

No roundhouse in the kungfu styles i learned. only as an add in but nowhere in the forms.

lifting kick to the groin is done with shin or top of the foot.

in karate, did roundhouse and used ball of foot as you describe for side step roundhouse to the gut or middle gate. or straight on to the middle gate, top of thigh, side of knee.

crescent kicks are top of foot or sole of foot to head, unless you lift and drop like an axe kick which usually comes down on the collar bone if done right.

tail kicks are another type of heel kick and toe push kicks in north shaolin are small target kicks to throat/face or to chest then push with the ankle flex at the end to create distance.

some similar effects and attacks, but not all. Haven't even talked about side stepping kicks, kicking out of steal a step from side or back and so on.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If we take just the round house kick, you will see 3 common variations, though there are more than that.
They tend to be divided into:
Karate style - ball of the foot, off a 45 angle, high chamber, wide and more snap than hip
TKD- there are 2 types here, ITF and WTF, ITF is off a narrow chamber ( liek a front kick) and pivots at the end to hit with the ball of the foot, the WTF is more of a whipping kick with the instep and is a wide chamber
Muay Thai- I think by know everyone knows what a MT round kick is, so...
SOme systems, like kyokushin, combine the abovem their round kick tends to have the snap of Karate with the hip of MT.

Most CMA that have the round kick have added it form one of these ways of doing it.
Others have modified it of the crescent kick.


And that is just a round kick...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

That pic of CTS seems to be showing a push kick or a heel kick to middle gate.

No roundhouse in the kungfu styles i learned. only as an add in but nowhere in the forms.



Chan Tai-San liked to use the "Ridge" or "Ball-of-the-Foot", roundhouse. I have several forms where that kick makes an appearance, both Lama and CLF.

However, we did Kicking drills where we used MT style round kicks. I remember David Ross and I learning some cool ones in my Mineola school back in 1991.

[diego]

Chan Tai-San liked to use the "Ridge" or "Ball-of-the-Foot", roundhouse. I have several forms where that kick makes an appearance, both Lama and CLF.

However, we did Kicking drills where we used MT style round kicks. I remember David Ross and I learning some cool ones in my Mineola school back in 1991.

in your forms is it the full body round kick like northern style would do?...i wonder why chinese is not big on roundhouse like the thai's but they love crescent kicks?.

[diego]

That pic of CTS seems to be showing a push kick or a heel kick to middle gate.

No roundhouse in the kungfu styles i learned. only as an add in but nowhere in the forms.

lifting kick to the groin is done with shin or top of the foot.

in karate, did roundhouse and used ball of foot as you describe for side step roundhouse to the gut or middle gate. or straight on to the middle gate, top of thigh, side of knee.

crescent kicks are top of foot or sole of foot to head, unless you lift and drop like an axe kick which usually comes down on the collar bone if done right.

tail kicks are another type of heel kick and toe push kicks in north shaolin are small target kicks to throat/face or to chest then push with the ankle flex at the end to create distance.

some similar effects and attacks, but not all. Haven't even talked about side stepping kicks, kicking out of steal a step from side or back and so on.

so we have left straight to solar plexus in right side bow stance hop ga style and then left twist step and left tiger rake face followed with right overhead and right side kick to knee...land in right bow and right pak left tiger claw push his shoulder or hit face...my favorite shadowless technique blinding above while collapsing below and then bombard the front. :)

[diego]

If we take just the round house kick, you will see 3 common variations, though there are more than that.
They tend to be divided into:
Karate style - ball of the foot, off a 45 angle, high chamber, wide and more snap than hip
TKD- there are 2 types here, ITF and WTF, ITF is off a narrow chamber ( liek a front kick) and pivots at the end to hit with the ball of the foot, the WTF is more of a whipping kick with the instep and is a wide chamber
Muay Thai- I think by know everyone knows what a MT round kick is, so...
SOme systems, like kyokushin, combine the abovem their round kick tends to have the snap of Karate with the hip of MT.

Most CMA that have the round kick have added it form one of these ways of doing it.
Others have modified it of the crescent kick.


And that is just a round kick...

so how does the tkd whipping roundkick prepratory footwork differ from the usual thai steps?.

it's ****ed up to me that you have bow stance rear punch switch to horse stance lead tiger claw, now knepo, hung ga and bs clf all do it different...the human anatomy doesn't have 5000 chinese engines for chi power...

[sanjuro_ronin]

so how does the tkd whipping roundkick prepratory footwork differ from the usual thai steps?.

it's ****ed up to me that you have bow stance rear punch switch to horse stance lead tiger claw, now knepo, hung ga and bs clf all do it different...the human anatomy doesn't have 5000 chinese engines for chi power...

Well, TKD kicks are based on the premise that they will be applied in TKD "combat" from a TKD "launch pad", that's why there are so many variations of kicks, they are dependent on multiple factors to be aplied to their full potential, using a TKD round kick in a MT match is possible, just as using a MT round in a TKD match is possible, just not as effieicent as it can be.

[diego]

Well, TKD kicks are based on the premise that they will be applied in TKD "combat" from a TKD "launch pad", that's why there are so many variations of kicks, they are dependent on multiple factors to be aplied to their full potential, using a TKD round kick in a MT match is possible, just as using a MT round in a TKD match is possible, just not as effieicent as it can be.
rephrase...in your studies how many engine models have you seen?. bruce lee mentioned we have two hands two feet, we all have stylistic favorites due to personal interest which a lot of the time don't fit or we wouldn't have mma vs tma threads. peeps would just live how god made them:) humans are odd, chinese go nuts with their martial dances. how many spirits are there? hop ga gave southern styles a i think north west china wind...you know what I mean?.

[sanjuro_ronin]

rephrase...in your studies how many engine models have you seen?. bruce lee mentioned we have two hands two feet, we all have stylistic favorites due to personal interest which a lot of the time don't fit or we wouldn't have mma vs tma threads. peeps would just live how god made them:) humans are odd, chinese go nuts with their martial dances. how many spirits are there? hop ga gave southern styles a i think north west china wind...you know what I mean?.

If you are questioning why there are variations to, for example, the round kick and how it is thrown, you need to remember that how you throw it ( engine) depends on how you are gonna use it.
Simple ex:
Throw a round kick from 4ft away, now, throw the round kick from 2 feet away.
Throw a round kick off the front leg, now off the back.
Throw a round kick as an attack, now as a counter.
See what I mean?

[Pork Chop]

One of my thai coaches likes to use crescent kicks (inside and outside) as counters to certain straight line kicks like sidekicks thrown from a far range. his background is a little more eclectic than just pure muay thai though, as he came learned Laotian/Indochinese kung fu from his pops. Reminded me of TKD when I first saw him bust out those counters.

Even in muay thai there are multiple versions of the round kick, depending on range, target, and trainer/style.

[bawang]

i think kickboxing kicks are much more powerful and strong ,because you dont have to worry about protecting your balls so your legs move more openly, and dont need to pull back kicks

kung fu kicks are almost all aimed at waist down even northern, many high kicks are for training only, like chambering punches

[Shaolinlueb]

does it really matter where the kicking style comes from though? you can snap a round hosue this way or that way. turn your foot here and not there. when in the end when they hit they all have the same effect?

who cares if tkd throws a roundhouse different from muay thai or kung fu. that style isnt right, the others aren't wrong.

[diego]

does it really matter where the kicking style comes from though? you can snap a round hosue this way or that way. turn your foot here and not there. when in the end when they hit they all have the same effect?

who cares if tkd throws a roundhouse different from muay thai or kung fu. that style isnt right, the others aren't wrong.
I'm of the opinion that if you get all of these grandmasters to see that a kick is a kick they might get ****ed off and tell you their super secret footwork to prove that they have the deadly...

Some clf guys like to put four inches into their chap choi, while others only three and three quarters...some two and one third..


pork chop I would love to see those counters some time...Bawang that's a really good point about open groin shots...Thanks for the tip SR .:cool:

[diego]

"southern styles rely a lot on trapping so you use the low kicks to control you opponent and destroy his lower legs so you can get in close and control his elbow"

from the southern version of this thread...does Muay thai ever grab the body with the hands and kick, like do they use two hands to trap and then leg stomp?.

[Pork Chop]

It's all about strategy.
The guys who are just throwing roundkicks to set up knees are going to throw their kicks a little differently than the guys that legitimately want to take the other guy's head off with the round kick.


As far as the crescent kick counters, I'm terrible at taking pictures or video.

Yes, there is arm clinching & body clinching as well as neck clinching and yes, kicks can be thrown from the various clinches (though I imagine body clinch kicks are kinda difficult to pull off).

[YouKnowWho]

wonder why chinese is not big on roundhouse like the thai's but they love crescent kicks?.
The reason is simple. Round house kick (or spin back kick) is dangerous to use in battle field when your opponent holds a 6 feet long heavy and sharp Maio Dao in both of his hands.

The goal of the CMA training in ancient time was to train how to use weapon. Bare hand combat was never emphasized until the hot weapon was invented. It's very difficult to talk about CMA without reference the ancient weapon usage.

The crescent kick is used in punching range just like the TKD axe kick that can be used to drop on top of your opponent's arm and may knock his weapon down.

I like to use my back leg round house kick to kick at my opponent's stomach when he switches from the uniform stance into the mirror stance.

[bawang]

chinese people didnt use crescent kicks in battle thats rediculous lol

[YouKnowWho]

I said it "can be". If you use it straight up and down instead of a big curve, it will have different effect from the round house kick.

[bawang]

chinese barehand martial arts are used to train reaction time only, most chinese barehand martial arts was never meant to be effective
it has nothing to do with battlefield

and the opposite is true the roundhouse kick is also called pian ma tui horse killing kick, because the horse leg is very long and thin

[diego]

and the opposite is true the roundhouse kick is also called pian ma tui horse killing kick, because the horse leg is very long and thin

without video, I don't believe this:)

[Lucas]

i see how it is. ask every forum but the shaolin one.

HATER!

:mad:




;):p

[diego]

i see how it is. ask every forum but the shaolin one.

HATER!

:mad:




;):p

no one replied to my Shaolin thread:( fix your glasses:p

[Lucas]

argh! maybe i NEED glasses lol

IVE GONE BLIND

[Lucas]

ok ill give my 2 cents.

there may be some variation from style to style, but imo the employment of your techniques will be based around your strategy/necessity. The strategy being based upon the environment.

you can take one school of kungfu and see different employment of kicking strategies between self defense training and sanshou training.

an easy example. in a sanshou match you are pretty much garanteed to see a slew of roundhouse kicks. in a self defense scenario...not so much.

same style, same kicks. different choice of kicks to use when and how.

[diego]

ok ill give my 2 cents.

there may be some variation from style to style, but imo the employment of your techniques will be based around your strategy/necessity. The strategy being based upon the environment.

you can take one school of kungfu and see different employment of kicking strategies between self defense training and sanshou training.

an easy example. in a sanshou match you are pretty much garanteed to see a slew of roundhouse kicks. in a self defense scenario...not so much.

same style, same kicks. different choice of kicks to use when and how.

right, so the next question would be.

How fancy does Gung Fu get with their leg work in fighting?... gonna look up some Dog Style and Tan Toi history:).

**** CMA is always fun, I haven't really trained in a year but I got that research bug again.

I remember going to the library in 1999 being fascinated by Tan Toi and that Wu Shu Dog Kicking book they had. lol

[diego]

Anyone have any Anti-Kicking stories and theories for CMA?. I don't know things like Liu peng kicked so high his chi traveled him to Mars and the villagers were unsettled so no one kicked on tuesdays... idk

we've all seen the thai leg breaks on youtube, karateka can break baseball bats with their toes, etcetc.

i'm almost done studying fitness, getting into PT as soon as my rehab is straight... I need some CMA fitness manuals, thinking maybe I should look up Olympic Wu Shu stretching programs, anyone have any links?.

Maybe some Daoist yoga...

[diego]

Dog Kung Fu, i.e. Góuquán (狗拳), is a martial arts style from China. This is a southern style of Chinese boxing that specializes in takedowns and ground fighting. This martial art also teaches Iron Shirt and Iron Palm fighting methods as well as specialized leaping techniques. It is mainly practiced in Fujian Province and was historically often practiced by women who were victims of foot binding, for whom any form of standing physical exertion was difficult. Its creation is traditionally credited to a Buddhist nun who developed the style to defend herself from bandits on her travels."

is it true about the feet binding fighters?.

[diego]

http://books.google.ca/books?id=iR5jRH2PkcUC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=advanced+kicking&source=bl&ots=_sEPbZ1HtY&sig=hx4iutrpu1zNmnMP1aPLLtQw_cE&hl=en&ei=WYELSsniMqTmtgP8oc2AAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

Advanced TKD e-book...I so hate the cult of kung fu TKD is a government body you can go to the olympics with it you can't with frank and bob's dark unicorn fairy kwoon...

how many peeps got injured training with ass-holes?

[diego]

Chan Tai-San liked to use the "Ridge" or "Ball-of-the-Foot", roundhouse. I have several forms where that kick makes an appearance, both Lama and CLF.

However, we did Kicking drills where we used MT style round kicks. I remember David Ross and I learning some cool ones in my Mineola school back in 1991.

would you please throw that kick into one of your video updates? would be sweet:)