VTM Throwing in Their Lot with Black Flag Wing Chun

[HumbleWCGuy]

Call me cynical, but this sounds like a huge money making scam on a number of levels. VTM swoops in and builds up the Black Flag lineage. Then they convert their schools to take advantage of the Indonesian origin. This might seem to be a small thing, but in reality it is a huge move. I guarantee that the the Indonesian origin of Black Flag Wing Chun that is little known will provide VTM license to claim that they have a martial art that is of ancient origins that is complete in every sense. What I mean by complete is that Black Flag Wing Chun will somehow contain every element of martial arts that is currently marketable.

Phillipino stick fighting

Phillipino knife fighting

BJJ disguised as a mixture of Phillipino (Silat) and Chinese grappling

Western boxing and Muay Thai disguised as a Phillipino-Kickboxing add-in that was created by some great Phillipino Black Flag master whose fantastic exploits we will hear of in the coming months.

Random-tidbits which will be accounted for by calling them never before revealed secret society techniques.

This will allow VTM to more effectively penetrate the MMA market, the Jeet Kune Do market, and the weapons combat market. Call me crazy, but... mark my words...They will roll out a new marketing campaign that will include most if not all of these elements in some shape or form.



EDIT:
Black Flag makes a prime candidate for such a gambit as it's lineage comes from a supposed "secret society" which by definition means that there is a lot of unverifiable history that VTM will undoubtedly elaborate on.

Finally, VTM will stay in the background, NOT attempting to take a Grand mastership role in Black Flag, because if the gambit falls through, original Black Flagers will be left to deal with the fall-out while VTM lineage-hops once again.


BOOK IT!

[punchdrunk]

black flag eng chun (sp?) existed before they met Benny Meng, their students would be good to talk to in the future to hear about any big changes. A great many Wing Chun people have studied different lineages and some teach several of them, it's nothing new. Whether it's Guloa, Hung Fa Yi, Pan Nam, Fut sao, Ip Man, Yuen Kay San etc. doesn't matter nearly as much as can they use it and teach it?

[Tensei85]

Call me cynical but if they're claiming Indonesian origins why would they use Philipino or Thai arts?
When they already have various versions of Silat as well as other fighting systems.


Just putting my thoughts to words, lol.

[chusauli]

From VIKOGA.com:

Appendix A

Suggestions and Notes for Selecting a school or teacher in the martial arts world.

1. The chief role of the teacher is to serve the students. The teacher helps the students to improve, to evolve, to become better human beings through his teachings. The teacher must therefore display exemplary behaviour and conduct. His actions (his words and publications are not good enough) must truly reflect values of benevolence, charity, care, compassion, diligence, justice, consideration, humanity, goodwill, generosity and courage. To name a few.

2. The most commercially successful school is not necessarily the best. The most well-known teacher is also not necessarily the best. The one who writes and publishes the most books and articles is also not necessarily the best. Accredited schools are also not necessarily the best, just like those with seemingly impeccable lineages. The nearest and most convenient teacher may also have many other hidden drawbacks.

3. The involved study of the martial arts tends to have a profound impact on the learner. You should shop around and compare teachers, curriculum and the learning atmosphere before joining. Ask for opinions from as many sources as possible and be objective in your selection before joining. Have a rigorous set of criteria in your assessment.

4. Avoid schools which tend to idolise and glorify the headmaster. Stay away from any cult-like organisations. Good schools focus on the students and not on the headmaster.

5. Avoid schools that compel you to slave for them as a condition for further progress into the system. They usually do this by giving their blackbelts or equivalents the options of either paying through their nose to continue training or teaching for the schools without adequate compensation.

6. Avoid schools that stretch the whole learning syllabus into 10 or more years to complete. You should finish learning simple and direct systems within 4 to 6 years, at a reasonable and affordable cost.

7. Avoid schools that preach violence and savagery. Check their leading instructors (they usually reflect their headmaster) for arrogance, contempt and crass commercialism. Martial arts is more for health, fitness, discipline and self-development. Good schools always encourage and practise peace and goodwill.

8. A good school has a warm, sincere and friendly atmosphere with a sense of order. No self-respecting school will advertise tastelessly and embarrassingly.

9. Avoid teachers who learn ONLY from books and magazine articles and proceed to teach different styles derived from his readings. An authentic teacher is honest about his own learning background.

10. Remember, that in this day and age, certain martial arts traditions are impractical and irrelevant. Loyalty and respect must be practised within the context of your prevailing environment and cultural background. Certainly, all your behaviour must be consistent with the law of the land and with basic humanity. Your relationship with your teacher must be based on fairness considering the time, energy, money and other resources you have to expend. Your teacher must never abuse his position and make you feel uncomfortable about anything. You should be able to be truthful to your teacher without reservations. A good teacher loves his students. If you can't clarify your doubt about your teacher's behaviour, conduct and values, STOP and LEAVE.

11. A good teacher will NEVER try to restrict his students' basic freedoms and rights. Do not sign ANY contract or agree to any set of behavioural rules without first checking with your lawyer, the police, or consulting with your loved ones and friends. If you are uncomfortable or embarrassed talking about it to them, then it is probably very wrong. No internal arts learning is so priceless as to lose your basic freedom and rights for it.

12. It is alright to formalise your relationship with your teacher in a traditional ritualistic manner as long as the ceremony is not designed to enslave and restrict your fundamental freedom and rights, as enshrined in the UN Charter of Human Rights. The conditions of formalisation should also be lawful and conscionable. Traditional rituals were designed for traditional societies and times. Many teachers abuse such traditional rituals and rites for purely selfish gains at the expense of the students. Be very careful and ever vigilant against such charlatans and fakes.

13. If you need to pay tens of thousands of dollars to complete your learning, STOP! If your teacher refuses to give you your complete learning syllabus after you have paid him thousands of dollars, chances are he is a greedy, conniving thief. If he is making so much money out of it, he won't give anything to you in a hurry. This is especially true when you have paid him thousands and you have learnt less than one-tenth of the whole thing. AVOID the trap that paying a lot means that it must be that good. Very often, it is just the opposite.

14. If your teacher is less than 45 years old, don't bank your complete learning on him. If he is younger than you, then chances are he is less mature than you are. In that case only learn technical matters from him, if you can.

15. If your teacher has son(s) or daughter(s) who can succeed him, especially when he has an organisation or school or is internationally recognised and sought after, then he will probably NEVER pass on to you the whole and complete system. In that case, learn only what you can from him technically, but keep your expectations at a realistic level. Pay only what you can reasonably afford.

16. A genuine teacher will take responsibility for his actions. If his students leave him, he will seek to understand the reasons why they leave and take responsibility for it. He should then endeavour to change himself, or his organisation so as to attract and keep students. He should not blame his own failure on others, least of all on those who have already left him.

(C) Copyright 2001 VIKOGA

[Hendrik]

When one is clear, just learning one thing and master it will get one to freedom.

When one is confused, collect everything will get one even confuse.

Some might think, it is objective to learn everything and then that learning of everything will lead to mastering. Logically, that might sound great. however, in the reality that is a kiss of death.


Learn one thing and master it, then after mastering an art, one will be able to know other art's very well. Not the reverse.


Hmmm, lots of wasting life.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When one is clear, just learning one thing and master it will get one to freedom.

When one is confused, collect everything will get one even confuse.

Some might think, it is objective to learn everything and then that learning of everything will lead to mastering. Logically, that might sound great. however, in the reality that is a kiss of death.


Learn one thing and master it, then after mastering an art, one will be able to know other art's very well. Not the reverse.


Hmmm, lots of wasting life.

Its not about learning everything (impossible), its about learning what you don't know.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Call me cynical but if they're claiming Indonesian origins why would they use Philipino or Thai arts?
When they already have various versions of Silat as well as other fighting systems.


Just putting my thoughts to words, lol.

I am no saying that they have, I am saying that they will. They will use the proximity of the Phillipines to Indonesia to claim to that they have an old and unbroken lineage for what is essentially a mixed martial arts style.

[Hendrik]

Its not about learning everything (impossible), its about learning what you don't know.

look at all these " WC Stuffs" collectors. Going to every lineages collect all who knows what. and at the end a master of none. Hmmm. Sad.




some couldnt even stand properly in YJKYM after decade of training.

Some keep said Chan Zen Zen but keep preaching Time, Space, energy as reality which is totally out of Wack from Chan teaching.




Section V. Understanding the Ultimate Principle of Reality

Subhuti, what do you think? Is the Tathagata to be recognized by some material characteristic?

No, World-honored One; the Tathagata cannot be recognized by any material characteristic. Wherefore? Because the Tathagata has said that material characteristics are not, in fact, material characteristics.

Buddha said: Subhuti, wheresoever are material characteristics there is delusion; but whoso perceives that all characteristics are in fact no-characteristics, perceives the Tathagata. ---- Dimond sutra

[Ultimatewingchun]

***THIS post should be archived by the moderator for future reference - sort of like a permanent sticky. Because I believe the poster is really on to something.



Call me cynical, but this sounds like a huge money making scam on a number of levels. VTM swoops in and builds up the Black Flag lineage. Then they convert their schools to take advantage of the Indonesian origin. This might seem to be a small thing, but in reality it is a huge move. I guarantee that the the Indonesian origin of Black Flag Wing Chun that is little known will provide VTM license to claim that they have a martial art that is of ancient origins that is complete in every sense. What I mean by complete is that Black Flag Wing Chun will somehow contain every element of martial arts that is currently marketable.

Phillipino stick fighting

Phillipino knife fighting

BJJ disguised as a mixture of Phillipino (Silat) and Chinese grappling

Western boxing and Muay Thai disguised as a Phillipino-Kickboxing add-in that was created by some great Phillipino Black Flag master whose fantastic exploits we will hear of in the coming months.

Random-tidbits which will be accounted for by calling them never before revealed secret society techniques.

This will allow VTM to more effectively penetrate the MMA market, the Jeet Kune Do market, and the weapons combat market. Call me crazy, but... mark my words...They will roll out a new marketing campaign that will include most if not all of these elements in some shape or form.

[mjw]

As long as there is money being made from matial arts such things and marketing gimics will always be around. Though there will also still be purists you will just have to look a little harder.....

[Tensei85]

hey humblewcguy,

gotcha now i understand where your coming from. thanks for the clarifications.

[Pacman]

what is VTM?

ving stun something...

[anerlich]

This will allow VTM to more effectively penetrate the MMA market, the Jeet Kune Do market, and the weapons combat market.

No chance. There's only one way to penetrate the "MMA market" and that's by winning fights. The "JKD market" and "weapons combat market" are pretty small and already full of stakeholders with entrenched marketing positions.


Learn one thing and master it, then after mastering an art, one will be able to know other art's very well.

This statement is demonstrably incorrect. If that were so, all WC "masters" would be grappling prodigies as well, and they are not.

The only value on this thread so far has been the VIKOGA article.

[HumbleWCGuy]

what is VTM?

ving stun something...

ving tsun museum

[HumbleWCGuy]

No chance. There's only one way to penetrate the "MMA market" and that's by winning fights. The "JKD market" and "weapons combat market" are pretty small and already full of stakeholders with entrenched marketing positions.


I think that you are assuming that anyone who wants to learn MMA is knowledgeable of it and that the market for jkd and weapons combat is fully saturated with schools. I agree that VTM won't attract serious MMA, JKD, or weapons people or people with no experience who are knowledgable about what they want in a martial art. VTM will mainly attract L.A.R.P.E.R. fanboy types who want to learn MMA, JKD, or weapons, and it should also do well in the Midwest and other relatively rural areas of the country.

[Marcelo-RJ]

You don't need to go too far: just take a look at www.shaolinwingchun.com.br and you'll see that the VTM is already selling the idea that Shaolin Wing Chun is the key for the ultimate skill and knowledge of Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, Full contact, Karate, Northern Shaolin, Muay Thai, English Boxing, public Wing Chun, Sanshou, Krav Maga, Chin Na, Suai Jiao, Judo, Jiujitsu, Sambo and Wrestling.

Tin (Luta em Céu) como Tae Kwoon Do, Kickboxing, Full Contact, Karatê, Shaolin do Norte, etc; Yan (Luta em Homem) como Muay Thai, Boxe inglês, Wing Chun público, Sanshou, Krav Magá, Chin Na; e, Dei (Luta em Terra) como Suai Jiao, Judo, Jijitsu, Sambo, Wrestling. Contudo, nenhum desses estilos/sistemas consegue expressar Tin Yan Dei de forma harmoniosa de uma persperctiva Shaolin.

Yes, just take a look at http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/programas.php and you'll see that what you've foreseen is already happening. Sad, but true.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You don't need to go too far: just take a look at www.shaolinwingchun.com.br and you'll see that the VTM is already selling the idea that Shaolin Wing Chun is the key for the ultimate skill and knowledge of Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, Full contact, Karate, Northern Shaolin, Muay Thai, English Boxing, public Wing Chun, Sanshou, Krav Maga, Chin Na, Suai Jiao, Judo, Jiujitsu, Sambo and Wrestling.

Tin (Luta em Céu) como Tae Kwoon Do, Kickboxing, Full Contact, Karatê, Shaolin do Norte, etc; Yan (Luta em Homem) como Muay Thai, Boxe inglês, Wing Chun público, Sanshou, Krav Magá, Chin Na; e, Dei (Luta em Terra) como Suai Jiao, Judo, Jijitsu, Sambo, Wrestling. Contudo, nenhum desses estilos/sistemas consegue expressar Tin Yan Dei de forma harmoniosa de uma persperctiva Shaolin.

Yes, just take a look at http://www.shaolinwingchun.com.br/programas.php and you'll see that what you've foreseen is already happening. Sad, but true.

Exactly, Since VTM has already done this with HFY (defined HFY as such and such it would be too obvious if they went back and tried to add. They have to lineage jump to keep adding.