Weapons(stick&kinfe) defenses

[taijiquan_student]

Last saturday in class we did weapons training, with a stick and a knife(plastic). It was my first time doing weapons defense stuff. My question is, with a stick(in reality, maybe a baseball bat or something), unless you can evade the attack and strike, or get a hold of the stick and disarm them, what do you do? I mean, if someone is swinging a big stick or bat at you, you can't block or deflect it, cause you would probably break your arm. But it seems to me(and this is probably my low level of skill) that to evade every swing or thrust, especially if the person is really ****ed off or high or something like that, would take almost superhuman agility and stepping skills.
What are some of your defenses against a stick attack?
Also, what are some of your favorite defenses against a knife(I think it's more likely I would be attacked by someone with a knife than a stick)?
On a somewhat less serious note, after that class my teacher had to give a classmate of mine some dit da jow for his shin. I was wondering, does jow always smell that disgusting? ;)
Teacher said he got it in China, on a daoist mountain. Man, that stuff smelled awful!
Thanks a lot, and sorry for the long-ish post!

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[fmann]

Evade when you have to, then you have to control the weapon and opponent as fast as you can and as soon as you can -- you have to take a big risk most of the times.

Also in a real confrontation with a weapon, you have to been extremely fluid and adaptive in movement and in thinking: being caught up in static defenses will probably get you killed (e.g., "First I do this, then this, then... hey he moved differently! hey what's all this blood?!").

And most of all, don't be 'fraid to bust someone when confronted with a weapon. If someone comes at you with a bat/knife/etc., your first concern is your life. Your last concern should be his life.

[Apprentice]

this can be used for either a clubbing attack by a Lead pipe or a knife attack (and the weapon holder holds the knife like a killer in a movie, ie. grip on handle, hand near own head, knife facing you)

You must be brave, and be worried more about your life than theirs(as the last guy said, good advice)...and you must actually charge in towards them, BEFORE THEY go to stab you...

(This is just assuming the knife is in their right hand, flip all direction details for opposite side, and definantly practice this with a friend, i have a friend, here with me now, definantly good at using this counter technique, must be fast and brave)

Okay, the knife is on YOUR left, you step in(right foot) and put up your right wrist into the front of their wrist, put your left arm behind theirs and put your left hand onto your right forearm, and push away from you with your right hand...

If done properly, this will bring them to the ground, and usually make them drop the weapon, what you do from there is up to you...

This is effective because it is basically a wrist lock, but it hurts your arm...its actually hard to describe what it hurts, but your arm just doesn't naturally bend that way, and will hurt the opponent...

This of course can be dangerous if your opponent has quick reflexes n steps back n cuts your throat...but seriously, i think this (if practiced) can counter almost anyone(my friend probably could...1 minute his hands are at his side, next INSTANT your in a painful move)

Hope this helps, YOU MUST PRACTICE BEFORE ATTEMPTING IN A FIGHT!!!

[apoweyn]

taijiquan student,

defending against the stick needn't necessarily involve lots of evasion. a blunt weapon needs momentum to be effective. so if you can crowd the weapon, smother it, you can get control of it. or simply just prevent it from building up momentum.

remember that you don't block the club. you block the arm holding the club. at bicep and wrist simultaneously is a good start.

if you raise both hands and think about moving in and cutting off the arc of the arm wielding the club, you'll be in pretty good shape. with some practice, of course.

the knife is a whole lot more complicated. (and obviously, i'm being pretty simplistic about what the stick can do too, but you get the idea.)


stuart b.

[JerryLove]

"My question is, with a stick(in reality, maybe a baseball bat or something), unless you can evade the attack and strike, or get a hold of the stick and disarm them, what do you do?"

That really depends on how the stick is used (and of course what you can improvise). Presuming you cannot improvise a weapon, you have a few options related to what they are doing.

If you have someone doing the "baseball-bat swing": The upside here is that the recovery time is rather high, if they are far enough back (with the weapon) you may be able to come in and smother / jam. If not, you may be able to decoy an attack and move in behind it.

If you have someone moving with a Kali-style "web" attack / defense: well, this one is tougher unarmed, a little practice with checking and passing comes in handy. Move in and overpower (push back) the opponent, try to offer something that can take a hit while closing.

If they like to hold the stick back and jab, you can try to grab and contest control. Once you have started the contest, move in and fight.

"Also, what are some of your favorite defenses against a knife"

Stay away or control the weapon. Stop by for a few hours and I'll show you a few dozen.

"a blunt weapon needs momentum to be effective."

This is untrue, I can pop you with the end with little to no space. I can also grapple with a stick.

"remember that you don't block the club. you block the arm holding the club. at bicep and wrist simultaneously is a good start."

From your description you drisk the stick whipping as the wrist bends and striking you.

BTW, in about 5 minutes I can show you how to use a knife to defeat every suggestion here.

http://www.clearsilat.com

[apoweyn]

Jerry,

It was a generalization. A starting point. I figured it was useless to bury taijiquan student under a pile of ideas. But for whatever it's worth, I'm all too aware of the potential of the point of the stick used in a flicking (witik) motion. So's my left kidney.

But the answer, to my mind, holds. Smother the weapon. Even a flick needs momentum. Less of it than a swing, but the principle is the same, in my opinion.

As for blocking at the wrist and bicep, you do run the risk of the opponent flexing at the wrist and popping you with the point of the stick. But with a checking hand on his wrist, you will be able to feel that intent and move according (pass it, tighten a grip on the wrist momentarily to stop the flick, etc.)

Regards,

Stuart B.

[JerryLove]

I said "from your description" rather deliberately. I presume that you have worked this and can check, my concern was someone trying to act based on what was typed.

Weapon control is definatle the issue, and smothering is a way of doing that (depending on a lot).

http://www.clearsilat.com

[blaktiger]

I have to disagree with your anti-knife suggestion. I think the last thing you'd want to do is go for a complicated wrist lock, stepping in towards your opponent.

Paul Vunak (he may be a bit of a hack, but he had some great ideas on knife defense) suggests that one obtains an "equalizer" against the knife: heavy jacket, coffee, bottle, table, etc. Anything that can either absorb the incoming energy of the blade. I think most people whether they study grappling or striking arts, would rather allow the knife holder to expend his energy by letting him go for the jab and getting out of the way. By the time he recovers, you can basically have your way with him.

With regard to learning in 5 minutes Jerry, I think 80-90% of the morons who carry knives nowdays haven't bothered to study filipino balisong techniques (slashing arteries, partially hidden blades, upside down slashes, etc.) or any other detailed knife fighting. Most of these people would use the old fashioned jab or slash from "Rebel Without a Cause".

And in that regard hopefully anyone who has trained this way has the spiritual discipline not to become an aggressor with his art.

Maybe knife defense is moot anyway nowdays, since gang members and other assorted a-holes carry pocket .380s and stolen 9mm's. We still train knife defense in our school, since it's based on angle of attack and not the type of weapon.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

[Syre]

My sifu gave me some jow, and it smelled delicious, like a sauce for some chinese food.

It was very clearly "for external use only" though, and I was told that it wasn't for use on any broken skin either.

[apoweyn]

Jerry,

No worries. You're right that it's difficult to convey a move like this over a forum. And perhaps the image my description was conveying wasn't good enough.

But the idea, I think, is still sound.


Stuart B.

[JerryLove]

Actually, I think most untrained defensive peopole with tend to slash the knife in fron of them and try to hit whatever sticks out. I think untrained offensive people will tend to stab like they punch (this is what I have seen in tapes of prision ambushes with sivs).

As to Paul, definately if you have an improvizational weapon handy, use it.

As to the gun comment, I carry a Glock .40 (larger doesn't conceal well) and have a CCW permet in the state of Florida. And this is a very common thing at my school (most people carry). We train anyway.

http://www.clearsilat.com