Why does Black Flag history keep changing?

[Eric_H]

To be Fair, there are different Black Flat group in China between 1850 and 1940. So, one must not lump them together.

From the old black flag website, viewed here: http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory


The underground Eng Chun system There were many underground secret societies who claimed their organization was founded by these Five ancestors. These organizations can easily be categorized by five different flag colors: 1. Red flags 2. Black flags 3. White flags 4. Green flags 5. Yellow flags

Yes, there was a black flag group in 1854, but that black flag army was supporting the Manchurian government on the Vietnam border against the French. They are not Anti-Manchu so how can the black flag claim to be anti Manchu?

Also, they have already mentioned the 5 different color flags as shown in the quote above. Those five flags, as well as being stated on the former Black Flag website are from 1920. As identified in Chinese government documents those 5 groups only existed at one time in all of Chinese history, and they were bandits. They robbed and killed people for a living! And, on top of that, the black flag bandits turned against the Chinese people to cooperate with the Japanese army. This group has nothing to do with Anti Manchu and they have nothing to do with Wing Chun. Their history has already changed on their website, and it is obvious that they have a problem understanding Chinese history, just like Hendrik seems to from his postings so far. I'm not sure if Hendrik just don't understand English well and has a reading problem where he cannot understand Chinese history as already displayed on this thread (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53727) from Chinese government documents. Maybe by voicing my perspective I can clear up some of the problems he seems to have.


Again, From the old black flag website, viewed here: http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory


Development of Eng Chun Kun inside Black flags society group Black Flags had a smaller number of highly trained troops. The main objective was to train professional killers to kill the Qing officials.

The Manchu didn't event exist in 1920! How can they kill Manchu officials? They were busy being bandits killing regular people. The Black Flag bandits used knives and guns to kill people, not Wing Chun. How can they claim to kill the Manchu? Their time period is already in the New China era! Even if they did exist, why would anyone claim a group of bandits as a respectable group to claim a lineage from? They were nothing but a nuisance to Chinese society.

All the information coming out from the Black Flag group is contradicting documented Chinese history, how can their claims be taken seriously?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Read the post that I started a few days ago. The short of it is so that Benny Meng can start up an MMA style that he can claim as being from an ancient and unbroken line.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53987

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

1,
Lots of people Romance the HIs-story and Rebels' and Non existing Buddhis monks..... up to the point they live in a fantasy land which lead to losing thier art too.

2,
As for the Black Flag history, I am not yet seen HYF or Chi Sim's solid evidence to support thier claim since VTM claim the Opera WCK as from GM Ip Man, YKS, Cho family, Koo Lo or the White Crane + Snake WCK is a watery version of the HYF and Chi Sim in KFO since decades ago.

So what is the different ?

VTM certainly needs to present supportive evidence to what they have claim not limited to just Black Flag.

[Eric_H]

Hendrik,

For the past 10 years you've been repeating yourself thousands of times, with bad grammar, and bad english. Nobody understands what you're saying! The only time I see you say anything that makes any good english sense it's some copied song from the 70's or a quote from some buddhism book. Over all the years I've seen dozens of people have the same issue with you, whatever you write isn't making sense, you are talking from a confused mind. All this time, all this writing, how come you've never tried to get any better at it? Most of your posts seem like you're just rambling to yourself, not adding to the conversation.

Hendrik, I really suggest that you spend your time on a better use of your efforts, like taking a class on how to write english. In fact, didn't you graduate from college? Did you cheat on your English 101 exam? My friend teaches 5th grade English and he wouldn't pass you based on what you wrote.

For all I know, maybe you really do have some kind of medical issue coulding your mind, if that's the case please seek help immediately. Maybe the KFO forum can take up a collection to help you out.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

For the past 10 years you've been repeating yourself thousands of times, with bad grammar, and bad english. Nobody understands what you're saying! The only time I see you say anything that makes any good english sense it's some copied song from the 70's or a quote from some buddhism book. Over all the years I've seen dozens of people have the same issue with you, whatever you write isn't making sense, you are talking from a confused mind. All this time, all this writing, how come you've never tried to get any better at it? Most of your posts seem like you're just rambling to yourself, not adding to the conversation.

Hendrik, I really suggest that you spend your time on a better use of your efforts, like taking a class on how to write english. In fact, didn't you graduate from college? Did you cheat on your English 101 exam? My friend teaches 5th grade English and he wouldn't pass you based on what you wrote.

For all I know, maybe you really do have some kind of medical issue coulding your mind, if that's the case please seek help immediately. Maybe the KFO forum can take up a collection to help you out.



This shows your personal agenda right?

Your concern is not WCK but your personal agenda whatever it is.








See, it is not my english. It is your heart is not pure.


The evidence is:

if it is true as you post above,

"bad english.... whatever write isn't making sense, talking from a confused mind."

then,

Why do you qoute me in the very begining of this thread?
How clear is your mind? How making sense is your logic? How smart are you for qouting me? hahahaha



I careless about your stupid dodo agenda, and before you pointing finger at others' history, clear your own history.


So, Dont qoute me.
and I am not intereseted to against or Anti the Black Flag or even VTM or even Benny.
That I am very very clear.

[Tensei85]

Hey,
His English suddenly got better : )~ j/k

[Eric_H]

Originally Posted by Hendrik
To be Fair, there are different Black Flat group in China between 1850 and 1940. So, one must not lump them together.

That I am very very clear.--by Hendrik

Flat or Flag???

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 12:10 PM.

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 11:21 AM.


A clear mind would not keep on changing his words, get some help.

Here this will help your "flat" problem.
http://www.amazon.com/ABC-Childs-First-Alphabet-Book/dp/0525469516/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242501938&sr=1-1

[Hendrik]

That I am very very clear.--by Hendrik

Flat or Flag???

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 12:10 PM.

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 11:21 AM.


A clear mind would not keep on changing his words, get some help.

Here this will help your "flat" problem.
http://www.amazon.com/ABC-Childs-First-Alphabet-Book/dp/0525469516/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242501938&sr=1-1




It is an evidence that
everyone who has a clear mind will and always change their wording to improve communication for clarification purpose.


Those who is confuse and lost will keep changing their history and in the same time blame others on practicing the same.



Get this and see for yourself who has keep changing their history.

http://books.google.com/books?id=t36y4sRDkWMC&dq=complete+wing+chun&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=AY-joldWAl&sig=c_iEwNevs1_jdtPYEFLmY9jMZuU&hl=en&ei=DRkPSv7qOJ6EtAOnxszmAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3




Simple facts right?

[Pacman]

its my feeling that black flag history is fake just like buddha hand wing chun

[Eric_H]

Silent Bob strikes back.

Hendrik, if Silent Bob's Complete Wing Chun could help your English, that's a good thing...amen!



It is an evidence that


Try: "There is evidence that"



Those who is confuse and lost will keep changing their history


Or: "Those who are confused and lost will keep changing their history"

Guess the book didnt help after all.

I think this book would be better for you than Silent Bob's:
http://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Writers-Guides-Better-English/dp/0141016760/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242504762&sr=8-2

[Hendrik]

I think this book would be better for you than Silent Bob's:
http://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Writers-Guides-Better-English/dp/0141016760/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242504762&sr=8-2



Thank you.

This is a Wing Chun discussion Forum, please keep you focus
in case you are capable.

Otherwise, Thanks and appreciate for your kind advise.

[Tensei85]

Wow! I actually haven't seen either of those two books before, I'll have to check into them. J/K :D

[Alan Orr]

Thank you.

This is a Wing Chun discussion Forum, please keep you focus
in case you are capable.

Otherwise, Thanks and appreciate for your kind advise.

Hi Hendrik

I hope you are well.

I always gain so much from your posts. Thank you.

Eric H - You must be hyf... sorry hfy as you are always more right, if you say so.

Alan

[Eric_H]

Thank you.

This is a Wing Chun discussion Forum, please keep you focus
in case you are capable.

Otherwise, Thanks and appreciate for your kind advise.

I started a thread about Wing Chun history from the black flag sect, again you seem to be confused. Since, as you mentioned, this is a wing chun forum, looking at your past posts, what do songs from the 70's have to do with it?



appreciate for your kind advise.



Should be "I appreciate your kind advice."

Back to the black flag history, from http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/Fukien%20Black%20Flag%20Wing%20Chun%20-%2003%20-%20VTM%20Report.pdf



According to Fukien HKB Eng Chun [Black Flag Wingchun] oral legend, “The system as it was passed down was preserved in two forms: a Male aspect and a Female aspect.” Based on VTM research to date, the Red Flag and Black Flag organizations preserved the Male aspect of the system. It is also possible that the “male/female” designations came into being during the Opera phase of Wing Chun’s history


As far as I know, the only system to bring up "male/female" was Hendrik's Yik Kam White Crane system. Looks like they're even borrowing from him!

[Bo_toxic]

I started a thread about Wing Chun history from the black flag sect, again you seem to be confused. Since, as you mentioned, this is a wing chun forum, looking at your past posts, what do songs from the 70's have to do with it?

Without those oldies, Hendrik would not be able to communicate with anybody, not that Hendrik knows how to sing, just that his English is limited.


As far as I know, the only system to bring up "male/female" was Hendrik's Yik Kam White Crane system. Looks like they're even borrowing from him!

There's no such thing as "male/female" in all other wing chun schools except Yik Kam White crane and Black Flag Eng Chun. Why didn't VTM or the black flag Eng Chun give back their credit to Yik Kam White Crane system? If black flag White Crane made more common sense than the black flag Eng Chun, Benny Meng should change their VTM/Black Flag Eng Chun label to VTM/Black Flag White Crane label. That may help Benny Meng to sell more VTM memberships in Brazil.

[stonecrusher69]

its my feeling that black flag history is fake just like buddha hand wing chun


Buddha Hand Wing Chun History is no more fake then any other WC history. What's important is how real your WC is.

[t_niehoff]

Buddha Hand Wing Chun History is no more fake then any other WC history.


That's not quite accurate. While all WCK oral traditions (history) have elements of myth and fantasy (the Shaolin Temple, for example), we can reliably trace lineages (WCK history is lineage) as far back as the Red Boats with people we can prove really existed and knew/taught WCK. With regard to Buddha Hand, there is no evidence of its existence prior to Henry Leung (who has over the years come forward with several versions of BH lore). And, it "looks" remarkably like Yip Man WCK with a few flourishes.



What's important is how real your WC is.

I completely agree.

[Hendrik]

Buddha Hand Wing Chun History is no more fake then any other WC history. What's important is how real your WC is.


I hope you know what you just step into.

[stonecrusher69]

That's not quite accurate. While all WCK oral traditions (history) have elements of myth and fantasy (the Shaolin Temple, for example), we can reliably trace lineages (WCK history is lineage) as far back as the Red Boats with people we can prove really existed and knew/taught WCK. With regard to Buddha Hand, there is no evidence of its existence prior to Henry Leung (who has over the years come forward with several versions of BH lore). And, it "looks" remarkably like Yip Man WCK with a few flourishes.



I completely agree.


althought BHWC linages is a short one, It's just a has valid as a lineage that goes back to the red boats era. JKD lineage is very short also. As far as BHWC looking very much like Yip Man WC... No its very differnet in every respect. Just ask someone who has trained with our group and they will tell you. Many have years in Yip Man WC and can tell you its very different. Unless you have personally trained with us( myself or my sifu) you can not make any sound judgment on it. I don't make any judgnments on other WC style I have not personally have experience with. AS far as the several versions of BHWC again there are planty of versions of other lineages also. The versions don't matter its only a story what's important is what the style about ,Is it effect? is it what I'm looking for? and so on.

[t_niehoff]

althought BHWC linages is a short one,


Yes, you're correct -- it started with Henry Leung.



It's just a has valid as a lineage that goes back to the red boats era.


I'm not saying that as a martial art it is any less "valid" (whatever that means) because its lineage BEGAN with Henry Leung.



JKD lineage is very short also.


Very true. The difference is, of course, that Bruce Lee took credit for creating JKD -- and didn't make up numerous stories of where JKD came from.



As far as BHWC looking very much like Yip Man WC... No its very differnet in every respect. Just ask someone who has trained with our group and they will tell you. Many have years in Yip Man WC and can tell you its very different. Unless you have personally trained with us( myself or my sifu) you can not make any sound judgment on it.


Where have I heard that refrain before? ;)

Yip Man WCK has numerous "signatures", and BHWCK has those "signatures". I won't argue that Leung and his students may have gone their own way with BHWCK but I think its clear that it started out as YMWCK.

[stonecrusher69]

Yes, you're correct -- it started with Henry Leung.



I'm not saying that as a martial art it is any less "valid" (whatever that means) because its lineage BEGAN with Henry Leung.



Very true. The difference is, of course, that Bruce Lee took credit for creating JKD -- and didn't make up numerous stories of where JKD came from.



Where have I heard that refrain before? ;)

Yip Man WCK has numerous "signatures", and BHWCK has those "signatures". I won't argue that Leung and his students may have gone their own way with BHWCK but I think its clear that it started out as YMWCK.


Yip Man WCK and BHWCK are very different.It's not just what I think but what most people who have met me or my teacher who have said over and over that our WC is very different. As far as Henry Leung making it up or using verious stories as far as where BHWC comes from.Myself I've only heard one story the other stories come from mostly his students. What ever the case may be, lineage is not really important. What's important is what 's being presented.If someone wanted to really know what BHWC was about you will not find out about it here. You need to see for your self.

[TenTigers]

I agree with Hendrick-it's a stupid doo-doo agenda!
:D

[eomonroe00]

i have trained in both buddha hand and yip man wing chun and they are very different.

[Rolf]

So Buddha Hand exists on its own and is different than Yip Man Wing Chun.

Why does Black Flag keep trying to change its history?

And why does Hendrik keep spewing garbage that is that is just plain wrong?


Hendrik, I guess you really can’t put the history together correctly. By the way, why are you STILL the only one claiming WC comes from White Crane? Sounds crazy and like gibberish to me! I hope your therapist helps you work through this difficult time.

[Hendrik]

So Buddha Hand exists on its own and is different than Yip Man Wing Chun.

Why does Black Flag keep trying to change its history?

And why does Hendrik keep spewing garbage that is that is just plain wrong?


Hendrik, I guess you really can’t put the history together correctly. By the way, why are you STILL the only one claiming WC comes from White Crane? Sounds crazy and like gibberish to me! I hope your therapist helps you work through this difficult time.





I certainly wont expect those who couldnt even capable of read time line and simple number such as Year and date to be able to think like a normal human.

[Hendrik]

All the ZEN Shao Lin...... Energy .... Time.... Space.... Anti Qing..... Understanding.... all type of Kiu Sau.... all type of .....


these type of teaching are Not Zen or Buddhism at all, in fact these type of teaching is totally upside down --- Polished brick trying to make mirror.

these type of teaching is Chinese cult teaching in ancient China..
Most today are just mislead and lost but still with their Self-Rigtheousness delusion thinking they UNDERSTAND the truth.



Here are some simple and proper introduction of what is Zen.

WCner wake up! See clearly and attain but Dont understand,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ9S4lpDdUU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0tLVQLSlsE&NR=1




Get oneself straight before keep inventing HIs-Story and Pointing finger at others...

[t_niehoff]

Yip Man WCK and BHWCK are very different. It's not just what I think but what most people who have met me or my teacher who have said over and over that our WC is very different.


It may - and I stress may -- be very different NOW. So what? That doesn't mean that YM may not have been the source. We were talking about history, remember? You brought that up. So the question is where BH came from. And my point is that it came from Yip Man lineage (who precisely taught Leung WCK we don't know since Leung hasn't ever told the truth about that) via Henry Leung, who took YM WCK and modified it into BH.



As far as Henry Leung making it up or using verious stories as far as where BHWC comes from.Myself I've only heard one story the other stories come from mostly his students. What ever the case may be, lineage is not really important.


Lineage is important if you are talking about WCK history (that topic you brought up). WCK history is essentially lineage.

And as far as you only hearing one story and others coming from his students -- where do you think they got them from? Hmm? Let me give you a hint: Henry Leung.

Of course, you could prove Henry Leung didn't create BH WCK from YM WCK by simply producing a BH WCK practitioner that predates Leung. But,we both know that won't happen.



What's important is what 's being presented.If someone wanted to really know what BHWC was about you will not find out about it here. You need to see for your self.

If someone were interested in BH WCK, then they should check it out. Why someone would be interested, I can't imagine.

[t_niehoff]

Why does Black Flag keep trying to change its history?


It's history doesn't change. The story being presented as its history changes. And that story changes since it is still a work in progress. That story is marketing, an attempt to sell Black Flag to the gullible using "history" as some sort of proof or bona fide of its "power" as a marital art. This is an old dodge that continues to be used.

Quite frankly, anyone today (with all we knoow) who buys into that sort of rubbish is IMHO either extremely gullible or an idiot.

[chusauli]

Regarding Henry Leung - Duncan Leung (no relation) had much to say in his biography "Wing Chun Warrior" about him.

I believe Duncan is the Yip Man WCK source of BHWC.

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Duncan-Leung-Wing-Chun-Warrior-p/dl01.htm

[eomonroe00]

That story is marketing, an attempt to sell Black Flag to the gullible using "history" as some sort of proof or bona fide of its "power"-t niehoff

how far will that get you?
eventually you have to show the power, and show you can teach it,

[stonecrusher69]

Regarding Henry Leung - Duncan Leung (no relation) had much to say in his biography "Wing Chun Warrior" about him.

I believe Duncan is the Yip Man WCK source of BHWC.

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Duncan-Leung-Wing-Chun-Warrior-p/dl01.htm

BHWC and WC from DL lineage have nothing in common. Both styles are completly different. They are as far apart as two WC styles can be. My Si Dai did 9 years of this style of WC. and he can tell you it has no similarites what so ever.

[Hendrik]

BHWC and WC from DL lineage have nothing in common. Both styles are completly different. They are as far apart as two WC styles can be. My Si Dai did 9 years of this style of WC. and he can tell you it has no similarites what so ever.


Sontecrusher69,

Why get into this path? IMHO, drop it before it got too far.

I know the teaching of my late sigung Ven Hsu Yun very well.
so, I hope you drop this discussion. Say you dont know and Get out of it the easy way.

Best Regards

[chusauli]

BHWC and WC from DL lineage have nothing in common. Both styles are completly different. They are as far apart as two WC styles can be. My Si Dai did 9 years of this style of WC. and he can tell you it has no similarites what so ever.


I am only suggesting many read the book Wing Chun Warrior and read Duncan Leung's side of the story. William Cheung also mentioned once that Henry Leung learned from Duncan Leung and made up his own system.

I am from NYC. I even learned briefly from Henry and even had friends learn from Henry. I have heard the made up stories and false history of Fut Sao WCK for many years. Some of them border on fantasy and superstitious. Others like having Buddhist grandmaster Hsu Yun teaching him WCK is utterly false, as well as linking his last name to Leung Bok Chau, Leung Yee Tai, Leung Jan (alleged famous ancestors).

I think some Fut Sao people are absolutely skilled. There is no denying that. Skill is effort over time and some are gifted and talented individuals. But as to the his-story and lineage... :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

But as to the his-story and lineage... :rolleyes:



Robert,

all the Shao Lin Zen his-story trying to gain upper hand in WCK lineage is just too much.


Compare the teaching of those who keep saying Zen Zen Shao lin Shao lin or even tan Sau Ng to the following clear description of Zen in youtube ,

one will see, all of these people who create his-story dont even have the basic of Zen but self invention totally off and opposite to the path of Zen.


how can one preach , promote ,and design martial art for anti-qing when one's believe is to let go of attachement which is the totally opposite? make sense only it is a make up story.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ9S4lpDdUU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0tLVQLSlsE&NR=1

[stonecrusher69]

I am only suggesting many read the book Wing Chun Warrior and read Duncan Leung's side of the story. William Cheung also mentioned once that Henry Leung learned from Duncan Leung and made up his own system.

I am from NYC. I even learned briefly from Henry and even had friends learn from Henry. I have heard the made up stories and false history of Fut Sao WCK for many years. Some of them border on fantasy and superstitious. Others like having Buddhist grandmaster Hsu Yun teaching him WCK is utterly false, as well as linking his last name to Leung Bok Chau, Leung Yee Tai, Leung Jan (alleged famous ancestors).

I think some Fut Sao people are absolutely skilled. There is no denying that. Skill is effort over time and some are gifted and talented individuals. But as to the his-story and lineage... :rolleyes:

Yes, I know you learned very briefly from Henry.I also know there are many stories about FSWC. Howerever no one can say for sure who Henry learned from.The book you mentioned " Wing Chun Warrior" I have never read,but my Si- Dai has the book and told me he can't remember any mention of Henry Leung in his book.I don't believe Duncan Leung has made any officail public statments about Henry or Futsao. Again, if you compare Fut sao alone side Duncan system it's very easy to see they have nothing in common. If the root of Henry WC is Duncan then there would be a connection which I see none at all.It is different in every respect. As far as the history of FSWC we are currently lokking into this and have obtain varifieable information on FSWC from China. When we are ready we may publish it.

[chusauli]

Yes, well, the worst story I heard was when Henry was allegedly locked in a box and GM Hsu Yun had just expired, and gave him instructions from beyond to tell Henry to use the inch power punch to break free.

Utterly nonsense.

When Grand Master Hsu Yun was taken by the Red Guard and beaten, he didn't use his deadly WCK skills. He simply let them tie him up and beat him. A true bodhisattva in every sense, he would not have adopted Henry Leung, let alone teach him WCK. Hsu Yun did not know WCK, nor did he have any need for it. His understanding of the Shurangama Mantra and Sutra was enough to uphold.

Of course, naive fools will believe any story, no matter how exaggerated.

[chusauli]

Yes, I know you learned very briefly from Henry.I also know there are many stories about FSWC. Howerever no one can say for sure who Henry learned from.The book you mentioned " Wing Chun Warrior" I have never read,but my Si- Dai has the book and told me he can't remember any mention of Henry Leung in his book.I don't believe Duncan Leung has made any officail public statments about Henry or Futsao. Again, if you compare Fut sao alone side Duncan system it's very easy to see they have nothing in common. If the root of Henry WC is Duncan then there would be a connection which I see none at all.It is different in every respect. As far as the history of FSWC we are currently lokking into this and have obtain varifieable information on FSWC from China. When we are ready we may publish it.

I'm sure if you could come forth with verifiable evidence of Fut Sao WCK and how Henry Leung is connected to it, you would.

Read the book. You'll know exactly whom Duncan Leung is talking about. Better yet, call Duncan Leung.

[stonecrusher69]

When we are ready we will come forth,but on our time no one else's. Yes,I know about the stories,again forget the stories look at the man's skill and what he had to offer.When you look at that the rest does not matter.

[punchdrunk]

Pointing out lies and stories and histories in kung fu circles ends up being nothing but gossip. What's next the William Cheung TWC? Or Leung Ting's doctored photo's with Yip Man? The truth is it does come down to the skill of the teacher's more than their history, even Yip Man's history is questioned... Even with Benny Meng being the recent target of gossip, if your in the know it;s different but there's way too much gossip from all the "well wishers"

[Eric_H]

Robert,

all the Shao Lin Zen his-story trying to gain upper hand in WCK lineage is just too much.



Yeah, I enjoy your made-up story about everything coming from white crane. Even though some branches of WC existed before your white crane system, Wong Wa Bo anyone?




Compare the teaching of those who keep saying Zen Zen Shao lin Shao lin or even tan Sau Ng to the following clear description of Zen in youtube ,

one will see, all of these people who create his-story dont even have the basic of Zen but self invention totally off and opposite to the path of Zen.


how can one preach , promote ,and design martial art for anti-qing when one's believe is to let go of attachement which is the totally opposite? make sense only it is a make up story.




Seriously dude, hooked on phonics.

http://www.hookedonphonics.com/

Start with the Pre-K program and we'll work from there.

[eomonroe00]

I am from NYC. I even learned briefly from Henry and even had friends learn from Henry

so what are your thoughts robert, on the similarities between yip man and buddha hand, identical???

I think some Fut Sao people are absolutely skilled,

you are correct, i think fut sao students did quite well in the wong fei hung chi sao competition the past few years.

Of course, naive fools will believe any story, no matter how exaggerated

there is no need to start name calling robert,didn't you post some ideas last year about the wing chun community needing to come together and put all the childish actions and words to rest?

[chusauli]

When we are ready we will come forth,but on our time no one else's. Yes,I know about the stories,again forget the stories look at the man's skill and what he had to offer.When you look at that the rest does not matter.

The issue is the intent behind the stories.

All martial arts are made up. If someone comes forth and says, "I created this from my training..." and not made up some great big nonsense story, it could be accepted.

[chusauli]

so what are your thoughts robert, on the similarities between yip man and buddha hand, identical???

[you are correct, i think fut sao students did quite well in the wong fei hung chi sao competition the past few years.

[I]Of course, naive fools will believe any story, no matter how exaggerated

there is no need to start name calling robert,didn't you post some ideas last year about the wing chun community needing to come together and put all the childish actions and words to rest?


eom,

BH and Yip Man are not the same now.

"Naive" as in believing tall tales, "fools" as in being fooled. Not name calling. I apologize if you are offended. I'll restate, "Being fooled by tall tales and spins on truth, some people will be deceived, no matter how exaggerated, someone will buy the nonsense.

[Pacman]

Yeah, I enjoy your made-up story about everything coming from white crane. Even though some branches of WC existed before your white crane system, Wong Wa Bo anyone?


for once hendrik said something that i agree with.

i dont know for sure but i hav also heard that WC had influence in its origins from Fukkien White Crane. It also had influence from Emei MAs such as Tai Chi too.

[Hendrik]

for once hendrik said something that i agree with.

i dont know for sure but i hav also heard that WC had influence in its origins from Fukkien White Crane. It also had influence from Emei MAs such as Tai Chi too.





Originally Posted by Eric_H View Post
Yeah, I enjoy your made-up story about everything coming from white crane. Even though some branches of WC existed before your white crane system, Wong Wa Bo anyone?

My made up story? hahaha

It is a fact that White crane of Fujian started since mid 1600 and traceable solidly and related to the Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun goes as far as Taiwan and South East Asia.



Why dont you show your WC existed before mid 1600 with the same trace able solid track record from both the Qing Side and the Han side ?


Until you got that. who made up story?

[t_niehoff]

That story is marketing, an attempt to sell Black Flag to the gullible using "history" as some sort of proof or bona fide of its "power"-t niehoff

how far will that get you?
eventually you have to show the power, and show you can teach it,

How far will that get you? It will make you money -- and that's the whole point. As far as teaching it goes, if you teach it as a TCMA, then it really doesn't matter since it is mostly fantasy anyway.

[t_niehoff]

i think fut sao students did quite well in the wong fei hung chi sao competition the past few years.


Oh my, doing well in a chi sao competition -- that really proves exactly what? Since chi sao is a completely artificial and unrealistic exercise, and does not in any way demonstrate fighting skill (that ability to use your WCK skills in fighting), what does doing well in a chi sao competiton demonstrate? Absolutely nothing, other than they can perform a drill.

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

Why should I, or anyone else accept your word on the origins of wing chun or for that matter white crane? Your understanding of timelines and dates are way off on the black/red/green and all the other flag societies. And that’s all published government info on the web!

Your dates on the white crane, Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun are probably off by a lot too!

You’re totally unreliable. Except to offer pseudo-zen gibberish nonsense.

Are you trying to re-write history like the Black flag people?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Why should I, or anyone else accept your word on the origins of wing chun or for that matter white crane?

Your understanding of timelines and dates are way off on the black/red/green and all the other flag societies.

And that’s all published government info on the web!



Your dates on the white crane, Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun are probably off by a lot too!

You’re totally unreliable. Except to offer pseudo-zen gibberish nonsense.

Are you trying to re-write history like the Black flag people?



I have never asked you to accept anything I said.

Whatever the facts are those are the facts, no one can change it.

You can make any accusation on me, however, those doesnt change a thing on what is the facts.

and what is your TRUTH? Do you have any evidence to support your Truth?

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

What, no pseudo-zen/haiku masterpiece to explain the world through white crane eyes?

You have disappointed all of us.

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik,

Why should I, or anyone else accept your word on the origins of wing chun or for that matter white crane? Your understanding of timelines and dates are way off on the black/red/green and all the other flag societies. And that’s all published government info on the web!

Your dates on the white crane, Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun are probably off by a lot too!

You’re totally unreliable. Except to offer pseudo-zen gibberish nonsense.

Are you trying to re-write history like the Black flag people?


As far as I know, Hendrik has done more than ANYONE in investigating WCK history. And while I don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions, his research is worthy of consideration.

I don't think we can ever know what happened prior to the WCK-moving-off-the-Red-Boat era. What we do know is that WCK shares very many common elements of southern fist. Whether those elements come from white crane (which has these elements) or whether those elements came from various southern fist, I don't think we'll ever know.

Hendriks ideas are at least plausible. Most of the RECENT origin myths are not.

On a side note, the chinese government is NOT a very reliable source of martial history. Consider how it has promoted the Shaolin myth.

[chusauli]

As far as I know, Hendrik has done more than ANYONE in investigating WCK history. And while I don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions, his research is worthy of consideration.

I don't think we can ever know what happened prior to the WCK-moving-off-the-Red-Boat era. What we do know is that WCK shares very many common elements of southern fist. Whether those elements come from white crane (which has these elements) or whether those elements came from various southern fist, I don't think we'll ever know.

Hendriks ideas are at least plausible. Most of the RECENT origin myths are not.

On a side note, the chinese government is NOT a very reliable source of martial history. Consider how it has promoted the Shaolin myth.


I don't entirely trust mainland China's history or record of truth. Many of the Wushu books' history can be questionable.

I agree with Hendrik's research as being plausible. I do believe WCK has origins in Fujian White Crane and the oral history of WCK is very similar to White Crane - and has possible explanations of the White Crane Daoist who taught at the White Crane cave ("Ng Mui" in WCK history), and the creation of the White Crane Weng Chun system.

Much of the history of White Crane is written and documented in their Quan Pu (Fist Registers) and are actual written records tied with the end of the Ming Dynasty, the creation of the Tian Di Hui and Hong Men, and coincide with actual historical events. Hendrik's Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao history is also completely documented and passed on through the Cao family for many generations.

This is completely in Chinese, but at least there are written verification. Many systems claiming to be original or first have no documentation at all. In the West, we value written documentation more than oral tradition.

This speaks volumes.

[Hendrik]

Many systems claiming to be original or first have no documentation at all. In the West, we value written documentation more than oral tradition.

.


In China, Written evident is also a must, Look at the Chan lineage transmission record.

So, I dont take those made up His-story.

Dont let those story maker fool you. In China, Chuan Chen or Transmission is extremely big thing. Those with Chuan Chen have written evidents.

such as this one

http://www.emeiqigong.us/lineage/lineage/ju-zan.html


http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/lineage.html



No BS jumping around missing hundred of years and NO BS story making every few years.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

What, no pseudo-zen/haiku masterpiece to explain the world through white crane eyes?

You have disappointed all of us.



other then words, what do you have?

Show us who are you, your lineage in WCK, and your Chan lineage with trace able written record. Until then, just words.


and Who cares if you are disappointed. I dont.

[duende]

I find it interesting how Hendrik so often references Hung Mun triads and secret societies like the Tin Dei Wui these days.

When for so long he completely disagreed with any relationship between WC and the Secret Societies at all.



Same for you Robert. In fact there are a quite few posts here and an article even where you disputed the relationship yourself.

No big deal. People's understandings grow (mine included).

In regards to history, if one is left with scrambled eggs, how could they ever know about the yolk and the white ever being separate.

This is a byproduct of China's cultural revolution sorry to say.


Just don't be surprize when Hendrik starts talking about the Ming Military's involvement with TCMA history and so forth. Oh that's right... he already has. ;)

[Hendrik]

I find it interesting how Hendrik so often references Hung Mun triads and secret societies like the Tin Dei Wui these days.



since the WCML era, or Decade ago, Yik Kam lineage has shared its the Red Boat Hung Mun/Taiping uprising identity code. which can be verified from Canton to Shai Hai To Nanjing and CLF.

Do you have one which is verify able from multiple sources?

Show us?






When for so long he completely disagreed with any relationship between WC and the Secret Societies at all.


Dont twisting words,


Read my posts since WCML time,

There is a big big big different between

the Creation of the SLT -- The fusion of White Crane of Fujian with Emei 12 Zhuang

and

WCK OPERA MEMEBERS joining the Hung Mun/Taiping uprising lead by LEE Man Mau.


Get that straight?

[duende]

since the WCML era, or Decade ago, Yik Kam lineage has shared its the Red Boat Hung Mun/Taiping uprising identity code. which can be verified from Canton to Shai Hai To Nanjing and CLF.


WCML era???? HA HA HA That is a riot!! Thanks H. that was really a good one. Haven't laughed that hard in awhile.


But what does this have to say about YOU and the recent change in direction of your posts? This was never the focus of what you post about and you know it.

Obviously, you only recently came to understand the importance and significance of this historical connection. Same with the Military connection!


PS... Are you now going to claim that you are an authority on the Hung Mun and Secret Societies too?? What a joke.

Don't worry, they'll be more history released soon.





There is a big big big different between the Creation of the SLT -- The fusion of White Crane of Fujian with Emei 12 Zhuang

and

WCK OPERA MEMEBERS joining the Hung Mun/Taiping uprising lead by LEE Man Mau.


Get that straight?



You are right. There is a big difference between Yik Kam's understanding/version of SLT, and that of the WCK Opera Member's.

And PSS....

Let's put things into perspective Hendrick. Lee Man Mau was only one of many leaders of the uprisings.

Again, you are trying to pass off one piece of the puzzle as the whole picture.

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh my, doing well in a chi sao competition -- that really proves exactly what? Since chi sao is a completely artificial and unrealistic exercise, and does not in any way demonstrate fighting skill (that ability to use your WCK skills in fighting), what does doing well in a chi sao competiton demonstrate? Absolutely nothing, other than they can perform a drill.

Do you actually practice Chi Sau?

[chusauli]

I find it interesting how Hendrik so often references Hung Mun triads and secret societies like the Tin Dei Wui these days.

When for so long he completely disagreed with any relationship between WC and the Secret Societies at all.



Same for you Robert. In fact there are a quite few posts here and an article even where you disputed the relationship yourself.

No big deal. People's understandings grow (mine included).

In regards to history, if one is left with scrambled eggs, how could they ever know about the yolk and the white ever being separate.

This is a byproduct of China's cultural revolution sorry to say.


Just don't be surprize when Hendrik starts talking about the Ming Military's involvement with TCMA history and so forth. Oh that's right... he already has. ;)



Duende,

Thank you for bringing this up. I want to clarify. I have long knew about the relationship between the Tian Di Hui, Hong Men and WCK and White Crane - I even documented this in my book, "Complete Wing Chun".

I say there is little relationship between WCK and the gangsters of today's criminal society known as Triads, aka "Hung Mun" who proliferate extortion, prostitution, smuggling, and other illicit underground activities. Many times my message got distorted due to emotional issues of various posters. We have wasted a decade arguing and talking past each other and I am happy we can have this conversation today.

My position has not changed, and to make it very clear:

WCK is not related to the gangsters, nor have any relationship to those types of illegal activities.

We should not condone these illegal activities as it sends the wrong message to the younger generation that we take the law into our hands and menace society with fists and weapons.

It was very simple, all along.

Best regards,

[duende]

Ok Robert, thanks for the clarification on your position.

Of course, no one here is condoning this kind of behavior you mentioned in regards to gangsters etc.

However, my point is, like it or not... the Triads of today developed out of the secret societies of yesterday. And in both regards there exists still, much that is not publicly documented.

[Hendrik]

WCML era???? HA HA HA That is a riot!! Thanks H. that was really a good one. Haven't laughed that hard in awhile.


But what does this have to say about YOU and the recent change in direction of your posts? This was never the focus of what you post about and you know it.

Obviously, you only recently came to understand the importance and significance of this historical connection. Same with the Military connection!


PS... Are you now going to claim that you are an authority on the Hung Mun and Secret Societies too?? What a joke.

Don't worry, they'll be more history released soon.





You are right. There is a big difference between Yik Kam's understanding/version of SLT, and that of the WCK Opera Member's.

And PSS....

Let's put things into perspective Hendrick. Lee Man Mau was only one of many leaders of the uprisings.

Again, you are trying to pass off one piece of the puzzle as the whole picture.



You love to Twisting words isnt it? hahaha.

You want to be the Champion of Toung Fu contest? make my day.

see, facts in history are facts, doesnt matter if it is you who present it or me.

As I told some of you years ago, enlightent me, convert me with solid tracking evidence I am always open and willing to be convert, if you have one. Show evidence.

Otherwise, Thanks but no Thanks for you Toung Fu games.

[Bo_toxic]

An article about fong wing chun and yim wing chun. Can someone translate this article for me. Many thanks.

武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名，不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

[duende]

You love to Twisting words isnt it? hahaha.

You want to be the Champion of Toung Fu contest? make my day.

see, facts in history are facts, doesnt matter if it is you who present it or me.

As I told some of you years ago, enlightent me, convert me with solid tracking evidence I am always open and willing to be convert, if you have one. Show evidence.

Otherwise, Thanks but no Thanks for you Toung Fu games.

Keep on editing your post Hendrik. It shows how upset you truly are.

I am content and accept that we all have different understandings, and perspectives to share. This is a forum after all.

You on the other hand can not accept anyone else's knowledge unless you put your personal stamp on it and call it your own.

No Tongue Fu... Just giving your energy right back to you.

[t_niehoff]

Do you actually practice Chi Sau?

Not anymore except when teaching (and I'm not teaching). I also no longer use the training wheels on my bicycle either. That's what chi sao is -- WCK with the training wheels on. Now, if you like watching bike with training wheels races, then chi sao competitions will be your cup of tea.

[chusauli]

Ok Robert, thanks for the clarification on your position.

Of course, no one here is condoning this kind of behavior you mentioned in regards to gangsters etc.

However, my point is, like it or not... the Triads of today developed out of the secret societies of yesterday. And in both regards there exists still, much that is not publicly documented.

Alex,

Great, we have agreement.

The original secret society was altruistic and sought the betterment of an oppressed society. They had the thought of "Fan Qing Fu Ming" - but now, there is no Ming or Qing.

Triads today are the criminal underworld. We have to be clear of what secret societies are today. WCK did not come from Triads; it came from the original Tian Di Hui. A major difference.

[Wayfaring]

Triads today are the criminal underworld. We have to be clear of what secret societies are today. WCK did not come from Triads; it came from the original Tian Di Hui. A major difference.

One man's criminal is another man's revolutionary war hero.

The large part of the Eastern US was populated with people from debtor's prisons and overpopulated jails in Europe. Criminals who comprised the original US Army in the revolutionary war.

Of course modern criminal elements are missing altruistic ideals to fight for - achieving riches through vice and gang loyalty.

But what separates them? The lack of a noble cause to unite behind?

This is the problem when trying to classify large groups of people. Human nature is intricate and has such potential for nobility as well as descendency to baser evils. Historians just supply a perspective.

[Yoshiyahu]

Not anymore except when teaching (and I'm not teaching). I also no longer use the training wheels on my bicycle either. That's what chi sao is -- WCK with the training wheels on. Now, if you like watching bike with training wheels races, then chi sao competitions will be your cup of tea.

Do you still practice any Wing Chun forms?

[chusauli]

One man's criminal is another man's revolutionary war hero.

The large part of the Eastern US was populated with people from debtor's prisons and overpopulated jails in Europe. Criminals who comprised the original US Army in the revolutionary war.

Of course modern criminal elements are missing altruistic ideals to fight for - achieving riches through vice and gang loyalty.

But what separates them? The lack of a noble cause to unite behind?

This is the problem when trying to classify large groups of people. Human nature is intricate and has such potential for nobility as well as descendency to baser evils. Historians just supply a perspective.


Good perspective. I appreciate that.

I have to say the issue is selfishness vs. selflessness.

The thug thinks of himself and what he can gain. The scholar warrior thinks of society and how society can benefit.

[duende]

Triads today are the criminal underworld. We have to be clear of what secret societies are today. WCK did not come from Triads; it came from the original Tian Di Hui. A major difference.

Hey Robert,

In regards to history, one must accept both the good and bad. We can not choose to acknowledge only certain elements of our history, and deny the rest.

Tien Dei Wui=Secret Societies
Hung Mun=Secret Societies
Saam Hop Wui (Triads)=Secret Societies.

They are all related. What you see as a major difference, I only see as a factor of time.

Besides, the term "Triads" itself is a highly generalized term. And refers to many many people from many different and distinct organizations that are considered "Triads".

Underground criminal organizations like you mention, such as the 14k in Hong Kong represent only one part.

There are also political members in the Triads. Like certain Taiwan politicians for example.

Also many Martial Artists are also Triad members. Not just those studying WCK.

Anyways, my point is that despite public perception, not all Triad members are simply criminals.

In actuality their membership is much more complex.

Best,

Alex

[Bo_toxic]

Hey Robert,

In regards to history, one must accept both the good and bad. We can not choose to acknowledge only certain elements of our history, and deny the rest.

Tien Dei Wui=Secret Societies
Hung Mun=Secret Societies
Saam Hop Wui (Triads)=Secret Societies.

They are all related. What you see as a major difference, I only see as a factor of time.

Besides, the term "Triads" itself is a highly generalized term. And refers to many many people from many different and distinct organizations that are considered "Triads".

Underground criminal organizations like you mention, such as the 14k in Hong Kong represent only one part.

There are also political members in the Triads. Like certain Taiwan politicians for example.

Also many Martial Artists are also Triad members. Not just those studying WCK.

Anyways, my point is that despite public perception, not all Triad members are simply criminals.

In actuality their membership is much more complex.

Best,

Alex

Alex, you made more sense than Hendrik and Robert Chu together.

The word "Triad" was originally used by the British to describe the" Tien Dei Wui" society because of their use of a triangular symbol.
This secret society began as a political revolt against the Qing Dynasty. The practice of Wing Chun was included within Hung Mun or Tien Dei Wui as well.
In more recent years the phrase "triad" has grown to include any underground , secret , criminal, or Mafia type organization. Most people associate triads with criminal organizations. That's an assumption based on movies, tv and a lack of historical knowledge.
Triad (traditional Chinese: ; simplified Chinese: ; pinyin: Sānhéhuì; literally "Triad Society") is a term that describes many branches of Chinese underground society and/or organizations based in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, Macau and also operating in mainland China.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyways, my point is that despite public perception, not all Triad members are simply criminals.

Neither are all Mafia or Yakuza members, it doesn't change that the organizations are.

[Eric_H]

You love to Twisting words isnt it? hahaha.

You want to be the Champion of Toung Fu contest? make my day.

see, facts in history are facts, doesnt matter if it is you who present it or me.

As I told some of you years ago, enlightent me, convert me with solid tracking evidence I am always open and willing to be convert, if you have one. Show evidence.

Otherwise, Thanks but no Thanks for you Toung Fu games.

Hendrik,

I think everyone's still waiting for real evidence about white crane having ANYTHING to do with Wing Chun. All your long rambling, drug-induced posts about ging energy have provided no actual value in terms of real evidence.

Basically your point is:
The wing chun you do, which is MIXED WITH WHITE CRANE, expresses energy the SAME AS WHITE CRANE. Wow, that's a shocker. Wonder where that came from...

What else you wanna argue? That Bong Sao makes WC come from white crane?? Hung Gar has a tool called bong sao too, I think maybe your wacko white crane comes from Hung Gar, can you prove it doesn't?

[Pacman]

Yim Wing Chun learned Fujian White Crane from Fong Chut Leung before developing it further to have it become the early version of Wing Chun

This is written by a well known Kung Fu historian (forgot the name) in his book 6 1/2 point staff

[Hendrik]

Yim Wing Chun learned Fujian White Crane from Fong Chut Leung before developing it further to have it become the early version of Wing Chun

This is written by a well known Kung Fu historian (forgot the name) in his book 6 1/2 point staff


Yup. and some just cant accept it for thier own personal reason.

[Eric_H]

An article about fong wing chun and yim wing chun. Can someone translate this article for me. Many thanks.

武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名，不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

Hello Bo_Toxic,

I ran into one of my friends who speaks Chinese this weekend and got them to help me translate this article.

Apparently it was written by a descendant of Fong Hop Jong, who was one of the Fong White Crane Boxing Masters from Fukien province. The purpose of the article is to clear up misconceptions between the two styles called "wing chun" after years of research.

(Translation/Edit as best I could get it to make sense for english readers:)
**************************
In the Martial Arts community Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun and the systems they represent are different. Fukien White Crane boxing is represented by the Fong lineage. Why is it that people confuse white crane with wing chun? Primarily for three main reasons: 1. When talking about Fukien Wing Chun white crane, "Wing Chun" can be referrencing a place, not a style or system. 2. Wing Chun is a person, Though Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun have similar names, the last name is different, meaning they don't come from the same family and are not the same person. 3. Crane and snake movement exist both in Fukien White Crane and in Wing Chun, however movements tied to crane and snake exist in tons of other kung fu systems, so one can not reliably say one begot the other.
************************

So, if my translation is correct, it pokes a number of big holes in Hendrik's theories. If a white crane master is willing to state that the two systems are different, who are we going to believe? I person who lives in China, is a descendant of a master of the art and actually understand the culture, or some guy who repeats himself all over the internet like a babbling fool like Hendrik?

Honestly, this makes a lot of sense, because Yik Kam's wing chun system, only has Siu Lin Tao or "little drilling in the beginning", it doesn't have chum kiu of biu gee like the rest of the world's wing chun. It's probably likely that Yik Kam learned some white crane and Emei or whatever else and just decided to call it that based on the drilling format of all the different things he learned rather than any credible link to the system called wing chun. Did Yik Kam even call his system "Wing Chun" during his lifetime? Or was that tacked on by his descendants?

For that matter, how come no other Wing Chun in the world links back to anything having to do with Emei? GM Yip man never mentioned it, none of the three systems from GM Leung Jan mention it, nothing coming from Wong Wa Bo at all mentions anything having to do with Emei! Where did it all come from? It has to be Yik Kam!

It seems that people like Hendrik only know 1/2 the story and are making up the rest (probably from all the drugs that go with the 70's songs). If the article is correct that means systems like Hendrik's half-breed "wing chun" are only making the confusion worse.

[Hendrik]

Hello Bo_Toxic,

I ran into one of my friends who speaks Chinese this weekend and got them to help me translate this article.

Apparently it was written by a descendant of Fong Hop Jong, who was one of the Fong White Crane Boxing Masters from Fukien province. The purpose of the article is to clear up misconceptions between the two styles called "wing chun" after years of research.

(Translation/Edit as best I could get it to make sense for english readers:)
**************************
In the Martial Arts community Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun and the systems they represent are different. Fukien White Crane boxing is represented by the Fong lineage. Why is it that people confuse white crane with wing chun? Primarily for three main reasons: 1. When talking about Fukien Wing Chun white crane, "Wing Chun" can be referrencing a place, not a style or system. 2. Wing Chun is a person, Though Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun have similar names, the last name is different, meaning they don't come from the same family and are not the same person. 3. Crane and snake movement exist both in Fukien White Crane and in Wing Chun, however movements tied to crane and snake exist in tons of other kung fu systems, so one can not reliably say one begot the other.
************************

So, if my translation is correct, it pokes a number of big holes in Hendrik's theories. If a white crane master is willing to state that the two systems are different, who are we going to believe? I person who lives in China, is a descendant of a master of the art and actually understand the culture, or some guy who repeats himself all over the internet like a babbling fool like Hendrik?

Honestly, this makes a lot of sense, because Yik Kam's wing chun system, only has Siu Lin Tao or "little drilling in the beginning", it doesn't have chum kiu of biu gee like the rest of the world's wing chun. It's probably likely that Yik Kam learned some white crane and Emei or whatever else and just decided to call it that based on the drilling format of all the different things he learned rather than any credible link to the system called wing chun. Did Yik Kam even call his system "Wing Chun" during his lifetime? Or was that tacked on by his descendants?

For that matter, how come no other Wing Chun in the world links back to anything having to do with Emei? GM Yip man never mentioned it, none of the three systems from GM Leung Jan mention it, nothing coming from Wong Wa Bo at all mentions anything having to do with Emei! Where did it all come from? It has to be Yik Kam!

It seems that people like Hendrik only know 1/2 the story and are making up the rest (probably from all the drugs that go with the 70's songs). If the article is correct that means systems like Hendrik's half-breed "wing chun" are only making the confusion worse.


The chinese writer who claim to be a White Crane person even get his own Fang ancestor's name wrong. That is how much he knows his stuffs.



Get the name of the Fang ancestors straight in this website:


the creation of this style is attributed to Fāng Qīniáng (方七娘; Amoy Min Nan: Hng Chhit-niâ),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian_White_Crane





and BTW

Notice they even have Lee Man Mau the chief of Red Badana listed.

Lǐ Wénmào (李文茂), a historically verifiable opera performer and leader in the 1854–1855 Red Turban Rebellion in Foshan, is said to have practiced the Yǒngchūn style of White Crane.



and here is the White Crane of Fujian lineage Family tree from Fujian.


http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/lineage.html


there is only 方七娘 no 方詠春








Thus, The rest of this person's logic is sad.

He could NOT even get his ANCESTOR's name right, how to go deeper or advance level's technology stuff....? hopeless.

no comment on your imagination and fantasy which based on others mistake.



BTW

what WCK are you practice? may be you need to take a close look at your WCK before post anything on others.

You better not following this Chinese writer who cant even get his ancestors name right but thinking he knows it all. That will be very looking very bad isnt it? hahaha


where is your WCK from Lee Man Mau?

[Bo_toxic]

Fong Wing Chun a.k.a Fong Chut Leung.
I don't understand why any of you bother responding to this character Hendrik. He obviously doesn't know enough to warrant any credibility.
He made lots of statements but can't substantiate them with any documentation. At the same time he copies bits and pieces from various sources, out of context and presents himself as an expert googler. He's not able to have a decent conversation with any knowledgeable person, as he can't accept any information if it does not fit his agenda.

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

I saw your clip and I‘m not impressed. I have friends who are experts in Lo Mei. They pointed out, that what you showed is a very basic exercise in the Lo Mei system. They were even more shocked when you called it yik kam slt. They asked why you called it yik kam slt when it is clearly a lo mei exercise.

I’ve also been reading your criticism of Chi Sim Weng Chun. You’ve been claiming that it’s not wing chun. It’s not really your place to decide what is or is not wing chun. You continue to attempt to define what is and is not wing chun. Even your own lineage of yik kam slt, is not really identified as wing chun by most people in the wing chun world.

Why would you call a Lo Mei exercise as wing chun? Would you say this more about yik kam’s personal experience. As in, he mixed Lo Mei and White Crane? It has nothing to do with wing chun. Would that be a fair statement from your perspective?

[duende]

Neither are all Mafia or Yakuza members, it doesn't change that the organizations are.

This is a false argument.

Yakuza and Mafia are not the same thing as the Chinese Triads. Nor is their history similar at all.

Check this excerpt out.....

Wing Chun History? An alternative viewpoint
by David Peterson


Far from being the criminal groups which the Australian and world media are fond of portraying, the Triads were secret organizations formed to unite the Chinese against a common enemy. Such was the case in the 1890's when the Boxer Movement swept across northern China, a rebellion organised by secret societies whose aim was the expulsion of the foreign invaders from Chinese soil.

Many of the modern Triads are legitimate groups whose aim is to help members of their own Chinese communities around the world. Melbourne's Man Ji Dong or Chinese Masonic Society and its Sydney counterpart, the Ji Gung Tong are perfect examples of legitimate (not to mention law?abiding) Triad organizations. I say this in complete confidence being, as I am, a fully initiated member of the Melbourne based group, perhaps in fact the only non?Chinese in the last 150 years to have been through this very secret of ceremonies, the last known "gwailo" being a couple of British sailors in Macau during the 1800's, according to what elder members here can recall being the case.

To return to my original thrust, even these legitimate Triad groups claim to have been founded by members of the Shaolin sect who founded these groups following the burning of the Shaolin Temple in the late 1700's (an incident which, incidentally, cannot be verified by any existing records in China and is now thought to have been a story invented by the Triad leaders to encourage unity amongst the various groups and to fuel the Chinese hatred for their Manchurian oppressors). These Triad "ancestors" fled to various places in China and began inciting the people to rebel. Modern day criminal groups, such as the 14k Triad, in hoping to instil fear and respect, not to mention gain some measure of credibility for themselves by gaining some "instant history", have adopted the customs and rituals of the real Triads. Unfortunately, these false Triads have received more than their fair share of attention and in doing so, have given the term 'Triad' a less than flattering interpretation.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

I saw your clip and I‘m not impressed. I have friends who are experts in Lo Mei. They pointed out, that what you showed is a very basic exercise in the Lo Mei system. They were even more shocked when you called it yik kam slt. They asked why you called it yik kam slt when it is clearly a lo mei exercise.

I’ve also been reading your criticism of Chi Sim Weng Chun. You’ve been claiming that it’s not wing chun. It’s not really your place to decide what is or is not wing chun. You continue to attempt to define what is and is not wing chun. Even your own lineage of yik kam slt, is not really identified as wing chun by most people in the wing chun world.

Why would you call a Lo Mei exercise as wing chun? Would you say this more about yik kam’s personal experience. As in, he mixed Lo Mei and White Crane? It has nothing to do with wing chun. Would that be a fair statement from your perspective?



keep up with your fantasy since you are not capable to live in reality.

[Stevehans]

keep up with your fantasy since you are not capable to live in reality.

I'm a little dissappointed That's not a typical Hendrick answer, sounds more like Terrence.

I personally thought Rolf's questions were quite reasonable in light of what you have said.

[Hendrik]

I'm a little dissappointed That's not a typical Hendrick answer, sounds more like Terrence.

I personally thought Rolf's questions were quite reasonable in light of what you have said.



There is nothing typical. and also if you like to live in a fantasy life similar to Rolf. that is your choice free will. Not my issue .

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

You haven’t addressed either one of my questions. Both are reasonable.

Why would you take an omei exercise and call it yik kam slt?

[Vajramusti]

I DON'T speak for Hendrik- but I believe that in his analysis that wing chun was born in a fusion that included some key aspects of original fukien crane and emei principles.

Hope that you are doing well.


joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Joy,

You are correct. Thanks!

[Vajramusti]

FYI-The Rolf who has posted on this thread is some other Rolf who I don't know. It isn't Rolf Clausnitzer of Perth, Australia.

Crazy stage in some of the forum threads. Me thinks that one of them has deteriorated so badly- it could stand being closed down. I am outta here for a little while as far as responding to silly posts.

joy

[anerlich]

There is nothing typical. and also if you like to live in a fantasy life similar to Rolf. that is your choice free will. Not my issue .


This from someone who talks about fighting vampires and the undead on another thread. :rolleyes:

[Rolf]

Hendrik,

So how much value should we all place on “your analysis?” What credibility do you really have? Your experience comes from yik kam slt, correct? So your sifu says wing chun comes from crane and emei. So it would seem it’s just his experience (not even your experience) of combining partial information these two systems and calling yik kam slt?

Again, I question why feel you write with any authority at all. What you call yik kam slt really isn’t even widely accepted as wing chun. Of course, your free to have your own opinion, but it’s just that. No authority or real value attached.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Hendrik's theory of Wing Chun being a Combo of Snake & Crane boxing is nothing new under the sun. Almost ALL "WING" Chun lineage claim to be from Snake & Crane root. The only thing Hendrik has put forward is a more likely hypothesis as to which arts are the root of the entire Snake & Crane legend. Fujian "Crane" Boxing & Emei "Snake" Body. Snake Body & Crane Boxing. For more info..

http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html


Seems to me that these so-called "Weng" arts may have some root/connection in the Fujian (white crane) "WENG" CHUN arts.

A perfect example! What is the first set of the Black Flag Eng Chun system? SAN CHIN! The Fujian White Crane Mother set.


:eek:


Back to lurk mode!

[t_niehoff]

Hello,


Hendrik's theory of Wing Chun being a Combo of Snake & Crane boxing is nothing new under the sun. Almost ALL "WING" Chun lineage claim to be from Snake & Crane root. The only thing Hendrik has put forward is a more likely hypothesis as to which arts are the root of the entire Snake & Crane legend. Fujian "Crane" Boxing & Emei "Snake" Body. Snake Body & Crane Boxing. For more info..

http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html


Seems to me that these so-called "Weng" arts may have some root/connection in the Fujian (white crane) "WENG" CHUN arts.

A perfect example! What is the first set of the Black Flag Eng Chun system? SAN CHIN! The Fujian White Crane Mother set.


:eek:


Back to lurk mode!

Good post.

[JPinAZ]

Only problem in all this is, Hendrik passes it off as 'fact', not 'theory' as you'd like us to believe.
Weelllll, maybe not the only problem. The other one is that Hendrik is clearly not playing with a full feck and fighting undeads and vampires in fantasy land too.

Besides that, Hendrik doesn't know squat outside of a made-up or hibrid system that he is titling wing chun. He really has no authority on anything other than 'he said' 'she said' 'so-I've-heards'. Yet, he frequently starts with 'we now know....' like he's talking about facts. Who is this we? Obviously Jim, T and hendrik... oh my.. :rolleyes:

"Almost ALL "WING" Chun lineage claim to be from Snake & Crane root." - Good, name them.

As far as Blackflag you mention, who knows what they really have. They can't even keep thier history straight..

[Bo_toxic]

清朝康熙年間。福建「永春白鶴拳」始創人方七娘，又名方詠春與其夫曾四在福建永春一帶廣收門徒傳藝，其中最 傑出者為鄭禮。鄭禮從方詠春處學藝成功之後，也廣收門徒影響最為深遠。其鶴拳中有拳訣曰：「內節硬如鐵，外 節軟如棉」。近代鄭禮傳人如潘世諷、林寶山、鄭文存等著名拳師。為何外人誤稱鄭禮傳人謂永春拳師，這與「永 春白鶴拳」、簡稱「永春拳」有密切關係。其實鄭禮之「永春白鶴拳」與紅船戲班「至禪永春拳」並不相同。這與 廣東佛山「詠春拳」更牛頭不對馬嘴。佛山「詠春拳」在四十年代中，甚少人能有機緣接觸，我輩族人當時亦聞佛 山陳華順之名，其詠春拳之「黏手短打」在佛山一帶很是出名。根據當時方氏家族亦曾見聞來自湖北賣藝者,也曾 以「黏手追形打法」的紅花拳甚為相似。現佛山一帶均以陳華順之詠春拳流傳民間。筆者方氏家族亦以鶴拳打遍福 建一帶、略有聲名。時年1923，王薌齋曾與本族人砌磋武功四勝六負、這証明鶴拳或許對日後王薌齋所創的意 拳有一定的影響。【福建武林誌】
This old article was from around 1930-1940. It offers some insight about passed generations and if someone can speak chinese and translate this it would be greatly appreciated thanks.

[Hendrik]

Can some one Translate the following interesting part from the above chinese article?


佛山「詠春拳」在四十年代中，

甚少人能有機緣接觸，

我輩族人當時亦聞佛山陳華順之名，其詠春拳之「黏手短打」在佛山一帶很是出名。

根據當時方氏家族亦曾見聞來自---- 湖北賣藝者----,也曾 以「黏手追形打法」的紅花拳甚為相似。



Based on the above,
Again, all the speculation without really seen what is WCK first hand, Certainly, have never even seen the SLT kuen Kuit of 1850.










Could you please post something from those who have seen and studied WCK and then Compare White Crane Classical writing with pre 1850's SLT kuen kuit? instead of keep posting something speculating to waste others time?




How about something like this

http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/origin.htm

清乾，嘉年間，永春白鶴拳第三或第四代傳人五枚師太，在永春白鶴拳的雄厚基礎上，加以創新，並將這種嶄新的 拳法傳給嚴詠春，由嚴詠春與其夫梁博儔發揚光大，人們稱這由嚴詠春傳教出來的新拳法為「詠春拳」（永春拳） ，也就是現時風行世界的廣東「詠春拳」。


from

http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/


associate with


http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=MC579DhVSTc&feature=related

http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/likongessays.htm




It is a FACT that

The White Crane community endorse WCK see they even relate Yip Man and other lineages of WCK.
http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/origin.htm
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!OufFoBmaGRozw7DLbWgjebI-/article?mid=94

the Gate keeper of Emei endorse WCK.
http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html






Since your group keep picking up others, from Black Flag to.....ect ;

Where is your WCK from?

Dont you need to present a clear explantion where the heck your WCK is from? or probably you are NOT WCner at all.


Where is your endorsement of your WCK? Shao LIn? WuDang ...ect? are they even willing to endorse you? Can you show it NOW?

Can you show their endorsement to the same level as the above from White Crane and Emei?




BTW. what is your agenda behind all of these? using your stupid information to test water for your future release His-story?

hahaha nothing to do with WCK but totally Marketing right? hahaha

[JPinAZ]

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about or to whom you are talking too. I can't understand your horrible jibberish and english skills.. Nor your train of thought, except that it's a derailed train of thought..

[Hendrik]

Only problem in all this is, Hendrik passes it off as 'fact', not 'theory' as you'd like us to believe.

It is a fact that some DNA of SLT/SNT can be found in Classical White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 zhuang. So? what is the problem?


Can your SLT SLT/SNT DNA trace back to something tangible source and those Source willing to endorse you ? Show it if you can. Enlightent me.







Weelllll, maybe not the only problem. The other one is that Hendrik is clearly not playing with a full feck and fighting undeads and vampires in fantasy land too.


As a Buddhist the ZEN Buddhist. I dont practice preaching Figthing like some FAKE Buddhist who is using Buddhism to mislead others.

BTW Vampires is not a fantasy in the Buddhism Realm of Ghost and Demons. it is in the Buddhist Sutra dont you know?






Besides that, Hendrik doesn't know squat outside of a made-up or hibrid system that he is titling wing chun.


who cares about your WCK?

I dont.


I have a clearly trace able WCK lineage which can trace from multiple sources up to 1850 at least.


Do you have a squat on your lineage as clear as me? if yes, show it.





He really has no authority on anything other than 'he said' 'she said' 'so-I've-heards'. Yet, he frequently starts with 'we now know....' like he's talking about facts.

Who care about authority.

You have facture evidence? show it.

if you dont, too bad dont complain.

[Hendrik]

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about or to whom you are talking too. I can't understand your horrible jibberish and english skills.. Nor your train of thought, except that it's a derailed train of thought..



Who care what you have idea or not.

You like to become a Critics on English?

this is a WCK forum, in case you dont know how to read english.

[vingtsunplaya]

Who care what you have idea or not.

You like to become a Critics on English?

this is a WCK forum, in case you dont know how to read english.

Seriously Hendrik. Do you read the sh!t you write? What are you even talking about? You don't put "s's" where you should, you inject them where they don't belong, you write in incomplete sentences and then you have the stones to talk sh!t to someone else? Believe me, I can misspell words with the best of them, but at least people can understand the basic idea of what I am trying to say. But with you, I really d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d y o u.:confused::confused::confused:
Here, let me try to say it another way that you might understand:

Yous is for to makes mine heads hurting belong english class no mores writings if no classings. ok?

[Ned]

Yous is for to makes mine heads hurting belong english class no mores writings if no classings. ok?

correction Hendrik says: "mines" not mine.

[chusauli]

These types of personal attacks on someone's English are uncalled for and really show poor manners.

How well do you speak Cantonese, Mandarin, Fujian, Indonesian and English?

Stick to the matters on hand - if you don't like how someone communicates, simply place them on ignore.

The topic is Black Flag history.

[Ned]

you telling me about manners, thats a joke. what did you say about GM Cheung? Moy Yat? ect....

T take your sifu's advise.

[chusauli]

Ned,

You have been fed a lot of propaganda, much of it twisted. Its fine.

I have said things before in my youth without thinking. My peace is with William Cheung, Moy Yat, etc. In youth sometimes you are ignorant and criticize things strongly. Youthful exuberance, ignorance, stupidity, I am guilty of it.

BUT its what you are doing now.

Peace,

[Ned]

Ned,

You have been fed a lot of propaganda, much of it twisted. Its fine.

I have said things before in my youth without thinking. My peace is with William Cheung, Moy Yat, etc. In youth sometimes you are ignorant and criticize things strongly. Youthful exuberance, ignorance, stupidity, I am guilty of it.

BUT its what you are doing now.

Peace,

Robert,
What I know for sure comes via your posting which I can create a link to and from a video with the words coming from your own mouth. Nothing came second hand or twisted. I appreciate your honesty about being guilty, that we can agree on.

As for Hendrik and T, the manner they attack is the energy they get back.

[Hendrik]

As for Hendrik and T, the manner they attack is the energy they get back.



I dont attack, I just let the sun shine so that everyone can see what it is.

Sure, I will expect to get sun shine and also the attack from those who is afraid to face sun. Expected.

[Eric_H]

It is a FACT that

The White Crane community endorse WCK see they even relate Yip Man and other lineages of WCK


Actually, since we have seen articles that go both ways this is in dispute and therefore not FACT.



Dont you need to present a clear explantion where the heck your WCK is from? or probably you are NOT WCner at all.


Neither are you, all you do is Yik Kam white crane Siu Lin Tao. That doesn't make it wing chun. If you really think it's wing chun, when are you going to learn Chum Kiu?



Can you show their endorsement to the same level as the above from White Crane and Emei?


A disputed claim as an endorsement? I think this forum is pretty well rife with that. Just look at this thread i started, the black flag history doesn't make much sense.



It is a fact that some DNA of SLT/SNT can be found in Classical White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 zhuang. So? what is the problem?


So what? You can find some commonalities with other martial arts in anything. For all your talk about the snake and crane you ignore the other animals and their role in the WC system as well. Do you have anything beyond snake and crane to talk about?



Figthing like some FAKE Buddhist who is using Buddhism to mislead others.


So who is a fake buddhist?




who cares about your WCK?

I dont.



Ditto for your half-breed white crane.




Do you have a squat on your lineage as clear as me? if yes, show it.



Yes Hendrik, it is clear that you have a mix mash of Emei, and white crane and mas oyama karate and whatever else you wanna bring to the table. That's clear, we get it. But it doesn't have anything to do with Wing Chun Beyond Yik Kam.



this is a WCK forum, in case you dont know how to read english.


Obviously you can't read this forum is about WCK, all you seem to bring up is white crane.

[t_niehoff]

you telling me about manners, thats a joke. what did you say about GM Cheung? Moy Yat? ect....

T take your sifu's advise.

I actually thought you guys attacking Hendrik's english and spelling was precious! That was the best you could do -- mock someone's english when it is their fourth language. Brilliant. Think of the intellectual skills it took to do that! Simply outstanding, sir. And I particularly like how you guys went at Hendrik like a pack. Yeah, no cult behavior there. Keep up the good work!

[JPinAZ]

Actually, it's hendriks derailed, unintelligible, trains of thought that are more the issue. The talking of fighting undead and vampires, aimless videos, etc. let alone tha plain old mindless randomness that I have a hard time comprehending. This guy is all over the place like a blind man in a straight jacket slipping on bannan peals in a graveyard :)

The poor use of english just makes it worse, but it's not really the problem. Even when I can decipher what he is trying to say, it still doesn't make much sense. :(

[Wayfaring]

Actually, it's hendriks derailed, unintelligible, trains of thought that are more the issue. The talking of fighting undead and vampires, aimless videos, etc. let alone tha plain old mindless randomness that I have a hard time comprehending. This guy is all over the place like a blind man in a straight jacket slipping on bannan peals in a graveyard :)


Hey there, easy now... Just because you can't see the connection between a tearful rendition of Barry Manilow singing "Feelings" and the undead in Buddhist Sutra doesn't mean that it's not there. :p

[chusauli]

Robert,
What I know for sure comes via your posting which I can create a link to and from a video with the words coming from your own mouth. Nothing came second hand or twisted. I appreciate your honesty about being guilty, that we can agree on.

As for Hendrik and T, the manner they attack is the energy they get back.

Ned,

I am sure you can be a reasonable man. No one is the WCK police. And if your motto is "Find your true identity in Space and Time", you'll know you're really no different from Hendrik and T, unless your identity is what?

I would like to know the source of this video and get a copy of it. And as far as any conversations, I would like to see it so I can tell if it is taken out of context. As far as my disagreement with Moy Yat, that is history that I did not care for him, nor liked him. That's just the way things were. But he's passed on. To be fair, I was contacted a few weeks before he passed on to make peace with him. I simply had nothing to say to him and just left it that way. After his passing, I reflected and realize he was just wanting to survive and make a living. I don't have any more feelings about him. Sometimes in life you meet people you have karma with and those you do not.

As far as William Cheung, I personally have nothing against him. He was my boyhood idol. I am grateful for what knowledge I learned from him.

All I was probably saying was something that an Australian martial artist had told me through hearsay and that was about an alleged arrest...not that I read or saw any newspapers in Australia around a certain time...but I am sure Australian martial artists and WCK players can all determine the truth of the alleged arrest. I believed this particular Australian individual as a credible source...the rest is for those fact checkers who are interested. As for me, I don't care. I heard hearsay, but did not check to verify it, so its all rumor mill gossip. Now, who is this individual who blew this more out of proportion?

Peace, Ned.

Best regards,

[Ned]

Robert,

I don’t know what you are talking about


No one is the WCK police.

and


Now, who is this individual who blew this more out of proportion?



I smell the bacon here:

These types of personal attacks on someone's English are uncalled for and really show poor manners.

How well do you speak Cantonese, Mandarin, Fujian, Indonesian and English?

Stick to the matters on hand - if you don't like how someone communicates, simply place them on ignore.

The topic is Black Flag history.




I would like to know the source of this video and get a copy of it. And as far as any conversations, I would like to see it so I can tell if it is taken out of context.


Your words not mine(s).
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44634

As for getting a copy of a video.. I’m not the source so I can not help you there. I’m not the only one who saw and heard what was on the video.

Blow any of this to any proportion you want.

I can’t help but let Hendrik and T to harmonize.

[Rolf]

Hendrik

So if you know it’s emei, why would you call that emei exercise wing chun? Why would you tell everyone it’s wing chun? Wouldn’t you say that’s lying? At least misleading and dishonest?

That would lead me to question your character and just about everything you have written or “researched.”

[CFT]

Hendrik

So if you know it’s emei, why would you call that emei exercise wing chun? Why would you tell everyone it’s wing chun? Wouldn’t you say that’s lying? At least misleading and dishonest?

That would lead me to question your character and just about everything you have written or “researched.”Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut contains a lot of the elements of Lama Pai/Hop Gar due to the influence of Wong Yan Lam. What should HG/CLF schools they call themselves then?

What about the influence of Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon on Chen Taiji? Shouldn't the Chen family be honest and call it Qijiaquan?

Hendrik fully acknowledges the Emei influence on his (Cho Gar) Wing Chun. It's everyone else who poo-poos his statements. Where is the beef? You are just making unjustified accusations.

[chusauli]

Many have not seen Hendrik's system and that can lead to confusion.

The Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section of the Emei 12 Zhuang is like the opening of the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao - they are almost a match verbatum.

As for the other hand movements of Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao - they are almost identical to White Crane in many respects, like the 5 elements hands, Chiu Yeung/Zhao Yang Shou Hands.

The Kuen Kuit has identical passages as in the Emei 12 Zhuang Ge Jue. Many in have not seen either in Chinese. Emei 12 Zhuang is an esoteric Buddhist teaching as well, only known to a few intimately.

Hendrik has the Siu Lien Tao Kuen Kuit passed down from Yik Kam - a written treatise from the founder Yik Kam present at the Red Boat Opera, passed down through successors of the Cho/Cao family. This document is a written proof that WCK existed on the operas and details a history, form, body and application. It is an authentic tradition in China's history - one that is passed down to successors of the system.

That document is more claim than oral claims put on by other WCK practitioners claiming how old/authentic/real/original their system is. Interestingly, the document's ultimate goal is to wake people up to their Buddha nature, and find enlightenment. This is typical of traditional Chinese system transmissions.

Its like looking at a child with their mother and father present. You can see where her nose came from, who's ears she's got, who's face, etc.

Many will react under denial, or threat, or ego - but ultimately, it is a gift for the entire WCK world - you can actually trace the origins of WCK through a verifiable source, and that we have an even greater heritage - lead practitioners into health and finding the Buddha nature, instead of defining oneself through conflict and combat and mind/ego.

[Ned]

What Hendrik fully acknowledges is that ALL wing chun comes from Emei. If he is only talking about his wing chun his-story then its whatever. Although, I'm not sure if Hendrik's wing chun is wing chun. It seems more of a favor of Black Crane kung fu and Kyokushin by the signatures here. http://www.blackcranekungfu.com. Now let’s examine Hendrik’s research methodology as used for all wing chun.

An excellent examination of Hendrik’s research methodology would be Hendrik’s own DNA engine. In the lines of Hendrik’s research methodology and parameters, if you view a couple pictures as pointed out at: http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2804
then he would conclude that Hendrik’s DNA is Black Crane and Kyokushin but not White Crane. Also in line with Hendrik’s “research” he would then associate Black Crane with Black Flag wing chun, and conclude that Black Flag is an off spring of Black Crane just because of the color, black. Also in line with Hendrik’s research rather than letting lineages speak for themselves, he speaks for them all. So in conclusion of Hendrik’s research methodology, Hendrik does not speak for himself and his DNA comes from Kyokushin and Black Crane kung fu. As said before: “Many will react under denial, or threat, or ego”, based on this breakthrough research.

[chusauli]

Ned,

Kyokushinkai, Black Crane Karate, and Black Flag Weng Chun have nothing to do with Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao.

For the record, Hendrik did study Kyokushinkai in Indonesia.

I think you are confused.

As for breakthrough research, that's your term. No one is discussing Kuhn-ian breakthroughs or sensationalism.

It is all quite plausible, that this lineage is able to trace its roots without inconsistencies or vagueness. The art is intact, documentation, lineage, and references to arts still in existence like Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang, and the fact that the Cao family in China and Indonesia still practice this art. We can find practitioners in China at Cao Xi, even today.

Its more concrete than "Take my word for it"...

Its even more concrete than Red/Black Checkered Flag WCK being descended from the Manchu Generals.

[JPinAZ]

Robert,

All your previous post proves it that Henrik learned something that has flavors of Emei and White Crane in it (from his stories). Maybe more that just some ‘flavors’ – that’s fine. But, that doesn't even mean what he learned was even WCK! But, I'll give it to him, it could be a hybrid of the 3 since he at least has SLT. But, that doesn't prove that WCK came directly from a fusing of Emei and Crane or anything else as he states is ‘fact’. And yes, this is what Hendrik has stated several times in the past. Are you backing that up as well?

So, Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao opening is similar to Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section of the Emei 12 Zhuang? Big deal, I can mix that into yip man SLT and call it all WCK too. Would you believe me?

And you say "The Kuen Kuit has identical passages as in the Emei 12 Zhuang Ge Jue. ". So? I can take those and mix them with something else too. Doesn't really prove WCK comes directly from Emei does it? All it suggests is at some point someone took info from the two and merged them

Really, all this really shows is that there might have been some mixing going on prior to Hendrik learning it. Also, the document that Hendrik has only shows that WCK was on the Red Boats at that time. Maybe someone in the 1850’s from the Yik Kam line learned a little WCK (up to SLT) then mixed in the other stuff they already knew, then wrote some of it down. BFD.
None of this 'proves' all WCK came from these two things as Hendrik says 'we know'. The issue here is Hendrik’s conclusion that WCK comes from Emei and W.Crane. Hell, not all WCK lines even trace back to the red boats at all!

Speaking of which, someone recently showed me a chinese article and gave me a brief translation of the story (I have included the image here. Hopefully someone can translate the article in full in case I misunderstood what was told to me).

Apparently, Ip Chun traveled to Foshan to visit Chan Wah-Shun’s village (and I think grave site). While there, he met with one of CWS’s grandsons. While they were talking, the grandson told Ip Chun that his father, Chan Wah Shun, taught him that WCK comes from Wing Chun Tong at Shaolin. Also, at one point the characters for WC were “everlasting springtime”. But, after the system left the Tong, they were changed to “beautiful springtime” to hide the identity of the system. And, that one day, the system would be named back to the original characters in remembrance of their ancestors.

This would lead to WCK predating the 1850’s, and not being ‘created’ during the red boats by mixing Emei and White Crane as Hendrik would have us believe. Also, we can see from all the YM lines, there is no Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section in the opening of SLT. Nor any other lineages besides Hendriks for that matter, whether tracing down from red boats or not.

And, are we to take Henriks words as fact and discount what came down from Chan Wah-Shun as told to Ip Chun? Or yours for that matter?

[chusauli]

JPinAz,

Thank you for your insights.

All I can say is that Hendrik's history is quite plausible, as the documentation I have been given and from what I have read on Emei 12 Zhuang and Fujian White Crane and cross referenced.

The story of WCK being before the Opera Boats is more than likely the revised/retold history of Fujian White Crane fist and the original members of the Tian Di Hui who eventually went to Taiwan. And then people mistaken Wing and Weng characters or use them interchangeably. The White Crane people have recently published their Quan Pu in Taiwan and show all of their history and involvement.

No disrespect to Ip Chun, but he may be an uneven historian and may not have known about this version of WCK. Also the story that was told to him is unaccounted for. More or less hearsay and further complicated people using Wing/Weng interchangeably.

I very much doubt the history of Fujian Shaolin, at any accounts. Which emperor burned down the Fujian Shaolin? A simple question...no simple answers. Remember, Kang Xi's father became a Chan monk, why would he burn down the Fujian Shaolin? Many of Tian Di Hui stories are made up and clearly reflected with inconsistencies in the numerous versions Qin Bao Wei and Dian Murray did in their book. A historian like Qin has more credentials as a professor and he has looked into archives in China. Its something that we WCK people have not observed. All documented events are archived, one does not simply burn down a religious temple on a whim. Also, town records would indicate where a temple was.

When I hear uneducated people talk about history, I generally turn a deaf ear, especially if they have little education, and apt to believe hearsay. Of course, this is my opinion, and I am human and subject to error. History is not faith. There are concrete clues in historical events. It is not about "Take my word for it..."

Please also know that Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao is very long. The 2nd section is equal to Chum Kiu, the 3rd section is equal to Biu Jee, and the 4th section is similar to the knives and Muk Yan Jong.

In the end, you don't have to take my word or anyone's word. At least you should verify it yourself. That is scholarship.

Thank you for your time.

[Hendrik]

So, Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao opening is similar to Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section of the Emei 12 Zhuang? Big deal,

Who said it is big deal? Not me forsure. fact is a fact. nothing big deal or small deal. hahaha


I have never said it is the Opening similar to Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section ONLY.






I can mix that into yip man SLT and call it all WCK too. Would you believe me?


Sure, go a head. I believe you could create whatever you like for your own benifit.








And you say "The Kuen Kuit has identical passages as in the Emei 12 Zhuang Ge Jue. ". So? I can take those and mix them with something else too. Doesn't really prove WCK comes directly from Emei does it? All it suggests is at some point someone took info from the two and merged them


Sure, you are right for your arguement.


But you are missing the point. that is forsure.


The point is there are keys in the Kuen Kuit DESCRIBE A PROCESS which will turn on Red Boat Opera SLT/SNT engine which share the same Crane and Snake ancestors. and the Process has EMEI 12 Zhuang's and WHite Crane "DNA ID". Got it?

Do you know what is a Process and "DNA ID" means? have you seen one? do you even know it exist in SLT/SNT?

Which WCK are you practicing? perhap your WCK doesnt have these type of Process DNA ID so you got stuck in the Words..and HIs-story ? Thus you cant identify what is what because your words are as good as my words or his words?

if you have a Process share with us! enlighten Us, please, Thank You!




And, are we to take Henriks words as fact and discount what came down from Chan Wah-Shun as told to Ip Chun? Or yours for that matter?


Who care about who's word. I dont even care if it is Yik Kam's words. I care only the Process which Can Turn on the SLT/SNT engine.

and in the mean time, SLT/SNT from Red Boat Opera has EMEI 12 Zhuang + White CRane DNA that is a FACT.

Do you know what is a Process?

Where is your Process comes from ( needs to be as trace able as Yik Kam's which verify-able from Chinese History, Chinese ancient Martial arts documents)? ,

Do you have a Process?
and your process could TURN on the SLT/SNT over night?

Show us, tell the world I will be happy for you !


enlighten me with WORKABLE PROCESS and SOLID TRACE ABLE evidence instead ofwords please.



BTW:
So which WCK you practice? do you have a verifiable trace on you lineage? Where is your WCK comes from? Does the Source of your WCK verify-able and willing to endorse you WCK?

if you cant answer the above, who knows probably your WCK is a present day made up? Yes? No?

[t_niehoff]

Many have not seen Hendrik's system and that can lead to confusion.

The Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section of the Emei 12 Zhuang is like the opening of the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao - they are almost a match verbatum.

As for the other hand movements of Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao - they are almost identical to White Crane in many respects, like the 5 elements hands, Chiu Yeung/Zhao Yang Shou Hands.

The Kuen Kuit has identical passages as in the Emei 12 Zhuang Ge Jue. Many in have not seen either in Chinese. Emei 12 Zhuang is an esoteric Buddhist teaching as well, only known to a few intimately.


All this suggests that there is some connection between Emei12 and Yik Kam's WCK.



Hendrik has the Siu Lien Tao Kuen Kuit passed down from Yik Kam - a written treatise from the founder Yik Kam present at the Red Boat Opera, passed down through successors of the Cho/Cao family. This document is a written proof that WCK existed on the operas and details a history, form, body and application. It is an authentic tradition in China's history - one that is passed down to successors of the system.


Let's be more precise. Hendrik has the SLT kuit SAID to be passed down from Yik Kam. That it is said to come from Yik Kam isn't proof that it really came from Yik Kam; there are other possiblities. For example, someone could have added these elements to Yik Kam WCK later and then taught it as all coming from Yik Kam (just like someone could take elements and say it all came from Shaolin).



That document is more claim than oral claims put on by other WCK practitioners claiming how old/authentic/real/original their system is. Interestingly, the document's ultimate goal is to wake people up to their Buddha nature, and find enlightenment. This is typical of traditional Chinese system transmissions.


I don't see why a document in itself is better than an oral claim. The document is alleged to have come from Yik Kam, right? How do we know if this is true? Is there independently verifiable information to that effect? How do we know who really created the document?

My other issue is that the Red Boat Opera was comprised of actors and performers. These people were among the lowest of classes in a feudal system -- on the same rung as prostitutes. They wouldn't have been scholars, they wouldn't ahve been literate(to create the document), they wouldn't have been interested in "waking up to their Buddha nature", etc. So, it seems to me more likely that this document, and other Emei and buddhist related elements, were added into Yik Kam's SLT later by the gentry.



Its like looking at a child with their mother and father present. You can see where her nose came from, who's ears she's got, who's face, etc.


I have no doubt that Yik Kam's SLT contains those elements of Emei12. However, that doesn't tell us when they were added.

Moreover, just because Yik Kam's WCK has those elements it doesn't necessarily follow that this was "original" or that my lineage of WCK, from Leung Jan, had those elements.



Many will react under denial, or threat, or ego - but ultimately, it is a gift for the entire WCK world - you can actually trace the origins of WCK through a verifiable source, and that we have an even greater heritage - lead practitioners into health and finding the Buddha nature, instead of defining oneself through conflict and combat and mind/ego.

We need to evaluate any evidence critically (which means not to assume it is valid or true). Certainly Hendrik's ideas are worth considering and looking into. But they hardly constitute good evidence or solid proof at this point.

And, as an aside, the very notion of creating a method of finding health and "buddha nature" is antithetical to the aims of a fighting method.

[Hendrik]

Terence,

Great Idea!

I am too old now, this will be a great research project for the next generation WCK researchers.


As for me, I am happy my SLT works and benifit me and can benifit lots of others WCners as we could discuss in the Internal Art thread;

Best Regards






All this suggests that there is some connection between Emei12 and Yik Kam's WCK. .....

[Ned]

Ned,

Kyokushinkai, Black Crane Karate, and Black Flag Weng Chun have nothing to do with Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao.

For the record, Hendrik did study Kyokushinkai in Indonesia.

I think you are confused.

As for breakthrough research, that's your term. No one is discussing Kuhn-ian breakthroughs or sensationalism.

It is all quite plausible, that this lineage is able to trace its roots without inconsistencies or vagueness. The art is intact, documentation, lineage, and references to arts still in existence like Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang, and the fact that the Cao family in China and Indonesia still practice this art. We can find practitioners in China at Cao Xi, even today.

Its more concrete than "Take my word for it"...

Its even more concrete than Red/Black Checkered Flag WCK being descended from the Manchu Generals.


What’s concrete is that Hendrik’s WC has both male and female version just like Black Flag WC. Not only is that concrete but Hendrik’s generalization and research methods are flawed. With Hendrik’s flawed research methodology we can say Hendrik’s WC DNA is from Black Crane and Kyoshin and Black Flag.

Robert, do you speak for Hendrik too? And Hendrik speaks for all wing chun? Where are your manners Robert? I don’t “Take your word for it”, especially about shooting off about bad manners, your sure can double talk in private and public. It does not matter what the Australians said about GM Cheung but it’s what you said. You spoke worst about GM Cheung than any Australian gossip you spread in the video. I have no respect for you. You are the instigator and can not be trusted. You’ve shown too much double talk shooting off you mouth. You are in no position to tell me anything.

[Hendrik]

What’s concrete is that Hendrik’s WC has both male and female version just like Black Flag WC. Not only is that concrete but Hendrik’s generalization and research methods are flawed. With Hendrik’s flawed research methodology we can say Hendrik’s WC DNA is from Black Crane and Kyoshin and Black Flag.

Robert, do you speak for Hendrik too? And Hendrik speaks for all wing chun? Where are your manners Robert? I don’t “Take your word for it”, especially about shooting off about bad manners, your sure can double talk in private and public. It does not matter what the Australians said about GM Cheung but it’s what you said. You spoke worst about GM Cheung than any Australian gossip you spread in the video. I have no respect for you. You are the instigator and can not be trusted. You’ve shown too much double talk shooting off you mouth. You are in no position to tell me anything.



Female? male? hahaha
I speak for all WCK? hahaha, your english must be worst then me to go into that conclusion.


Truth is truth be it who wining the arguement of who got upset or who defend who or who against who. or how to twisting words or how to .....


hahaha

human ego , self-rigtheous, and blindness.

Speak about you speak about me. what is the different?

hahahaha,

Why waste life ?

[chusauli]

Ned,

Its a known lawyer trick that when there is no counter to the argument, then the character is attacked.

Ned, your emotional attack is of no relevance here. And it is quite apparent your information is of no use to this discussion.

Trust me or not, its up to you. All I know is what I saw for myself and researched. It doesn't take away from anyone's practice. I don't speak for anyone but myself. I do not have a group talking for me, nor one that I take a position with for identity.

You seem to be reacting with fear...of what?

Wish you well, I harbor no ill will to you.

[Ned]

Ned,

Its a known lawyer trick that when there is no counter to the argument, then the character is attacked.

Ned, your emotional attack is of no relevance here. And it is quite apparent your information is of no use to this discussion.

Trust me or not, its up to you. All I know is what I saw for myself and researched. It doesn't take away from anyone's practice. I don't speak for anyone but myself. I do not have a group talking for me, nor one that I take a position with for identity.

You seem to be reacting with fear...of what?

Wish you well, I harbor no ill will to you.

Whatever Robert, first you tell me about manners and I point out your manners and then now you talk about lawyer tricks while doing lawyer tricks. Like I said whatever. Apparently your lawyer tricks to avoid addressing your double talk continue behind your redirection to make up little slights to my character. Stay on the facts. I’ve seen the facts first hand in writing and video. I see right through you diverting attention away from the facts with your passive-aggressive propaganda.

BTW, Hendrik’s research methods are a joke and have no relevance for ALL WC. The relevance is that he does not speak for all WC.

I have nothing to harbor but to point it out like it is.

[Ned]

Robert,

All your previous post proves it that Henrik learned something that has flavors of Emei and White Crane in it (from his stories). Maybe more that just some ‘flavors’ – that’s fine. But, that doesn't even mean what he learned was even WCK! But, I'll give it to him, it could be a hybrid of the 3 since he at least has SLT. But, that doesn't prove that WCK came directly from a fusing of Emei and Crane or anything else as he states is ‘fact’. And yes, this is what Hendrik has stated several times in the past. Are you backing that up as well?

So, Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao opening is similar to Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section of the Emei 12 Zhuang? Big deal, I can mix that into yip man SLT and call it all WCK too. Would you believe me?

And you say "The Kuen Kuit has identical passages as in the Emei 12 Zhuang Ge Jue. ". So? I can take those and mix them with something else too. Doesn't really prove WCK comes directly from Emei does it? All it suggests is at some point someone took info from the two and merged them

Really, all this really shows is that there might have been some mixing going on prior to Hendrik learning it. Also, the document that Hendrik has only shows that WCK was on the Red Boats at that time. Maybe someone in the 1850’s from the Yik Kam line learned a little WCK (up to SLT) then mixed in the other stuff they already knew, then wrote some of it down. BFD.
None of this 'proves' all WCK came from these two things as Hendrik says 'we know'. The issue here is Hendrik’s conclusion that WCK comes from Emei and W.Crane. Hell, not all WCK lines even trace back to the red boats at all!

Speaking of which, someone recently showed me a chinese article and gave me a brief translation of the story (I have included the image here. Hopefully someone can translate the article in full in case I misunderstood what was told to me).

Apparently, Ip Chun traveled to Foshan to visit Chan Wah-Shun’s village (and I think grave site). While there, he met with one of CWS’s grandsons. While they were talking, the grandson told Ip Chun that his father, Chan Wah Shun, taught him that WCK comes from Wing Chun Tong at Shaolin. Also, at one point the characters for WC were “everlasting springtime”. But, after the system left the Tong, they were changed to “beautiful springtime” to hide the identity of the system. And, that one day, the system would be named back to the original characters in remembrance of their ancestors.

This would lead to WCK predating the 1850’s, and not being ‘created’ during the red boats by mixing Emei and White Crane as Hendrik would have us believe. Also, we can see from all the YM lines, there is no Emei Xiao Zi Zhuang section in the opening of SLT. Nor any other lineages besides Hendriks for that matter, whether tracing down from red boats or not.

And, are we to take Henriks words as fact and discount what came down from Chan Wah-Shun as told to Ip Chun? Or yours for that matter?


Hey Jonathan, to add to your posting.
Below is the Chinese characters for a fuller translaton if anyone choices to translate themselve. This information is from a true reliable Wing Chun master, Chan Wah-Soon’s grandson Chan Guo-Gei.
Unlike Hendrik’s research its his-story.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Latest Wing Chun news from Yip Chun 葉準

Yip Man's first Wing Chun teacher, Wing Chun Grandmaster Chan Wah-Soon 陳華順 once told this to his grandson Chan Guo-Gei陳國基, "Wing Chun was originally from southern Shaolin Temple"


據報導，關於詠春拳與永春拳的關係，李小龍師傅葉問的兒子葉準會以 「香港詠春體肓會」 董事局主席身分去順德探訪華公（對詠春早期宗師陳華順的尊稱）後人陳汝棉之子陳國基，發現陳汝棉神位寫的是 「永春」拳。陳汝棉是陳華順之子，所習的是眾所周知的「詠春拳」，為什麽神位上卻寫的是「詠春 」 呢？
報導稱，陳國基解釋，爺爺陳華順臨終前對父親說：「詠春拳原本出自少林寺的「永春堂」、原來是教「永春拳」 的，後來清廷火燒少林寺，於是少林寺儈眾包括在「永春堂」中習「詠春拳」的儈眾在内，皆被清廷緝捕，「永春 」門人便將「永春拳」改為「詠春拳」以掩人耳目」。陳華順遺言：若他日清廷被推翻後，「詠春拳」便將認祖歸 宗重新改回叫「永春拳」。

[CFT]

Hey Jonathan, to add to your posting.
Below is the Chinese characters for a fuller translaton if anyone choices to translate themselve. This information is from a true reliable Wing Chun master, Chan Wah-Soon’s grandson Chan Guo-Gei.
Unlike Hendrik’s research its his-story.You seem to have double standards. How can you prove that Chan Wah-Sun told that story to Chan Guo-Gei? The Chan family can have their own agenda to pursue.

Chan Guo-Gei was the source of the story about Wong Fei Hung challenging Leung Jan but lost the encounter when he was tricked into "fighting" Chan Wah-Sun instead.

The Chan Yiu-Min line also promotes the fact that they have "secret" forms and training that the Yip Man line (and others) did not receive.

So excuse me if I take your claims of "reliability" with a pinch of salt.

[chusauli]

All this suggests that there is some connection between Emei12 and Yik Kam's WCK.

Let's be more precise. Hendrik has the SLT kuit SAID to be passed down from Yik Kam. That it is said to come from Yik Kam isn't proof that it really came from Yik Kam; there are other possiblities. For example, someone could have added these elements to Yik Kam WCK later and then taught it as all coming from Yik Kam (just like someone could take elements and say it all came from Shaolin).

I don't see why a document in itself is better than an oral claim. The document is alleged to have come from Yik Kam, right? How do we know if this is true? Is there independently verifiable information to that effect? How do we know who really created the document?

My other issue is that the Red Boat Opera was comprised of actors and performers. These people were among the lowest of classes in a feudal system -- on the same rung as prostitutes. They wouldn't have been scholars, they wouldn't ahve been literate(to create the document), they wouldn't have been interested in "waking up to their Buddha nature", etc. So, it seems to me more likely that this document, and other Emei and buddhist related elements, were added into Yik Kam's SLT later by the gentry.

I have no doubt that Yik Kam's SLT contains those elements of Emei12. However, that doesn't tell us when they were added.

Moreover, just because Yik Kam's WCK has those elements it doesn't necessarily follow that this was "original" or that my lineage of WCK, from Leung Jan, had those elements.

We need to evaluate any evidence critically (which means not to assume it is valid or true). Certainly Hendrik's ideas are worth considering and looking into. But they hardly constitute good evidence or solid proof at this point.

And, as an aside, the very notion of creating a method of finding health and "buddha nature" is antithetical to the aims of a fighting method.

Very good Terence, this is the type of critcal thinking that goes into investigation of history, not just taking someone's word or oral history. Yes, Hendrik has the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit said to be passed down from Yik Kam, through generations of the Cao/Cho family to Cho Hung Choy (Hendrik's late Sifu) to Hendrik Santo.

Certainly the person investigating this theory would have to collect all sources of information on the Emei 12 Zhuang (which had been secret from the 1800's until the 1980's and previously unavailable written), the Fujian White Crane Quan Pu from the 1700's to present, then compare and contrast the 12 Zhuang and Fujian Shaolin and compare it to the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao. Since the Emei 12 Zhuang was so secret until modern day, I'm sure someone entering this project would have to investigate the Emei 12 Zhuang Quan Pu as well, and see if there is mention of Yik Kam...

Interestingly, Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao looks like old WCK from Futshan - the opening is very similar to the old Yuen Kay Shan I learned, which predates the Yip Man opening. The Yip Man opening differs and simplified from perhaps the older Futshan WCK as a whole, and has less circling and "Bai Jee" maneuvers. It does not look like the standard opening in Yip Man WCK, or Yip Man derived WCK like TWC which has a simple open horse, Sup Ji Sao, Sou Kuen, Jik Chung Chuie - Huen Sao opening. Both Yik Kam SLT and early YKS sets have a lot of Bai Jee (swaying fingers) movement. SLT and Emei 12 Zhuang also have many similar elements to them, not just the "Xiao Zi Zhuang" - the Bai Jong double Wu Sao is trademark of Emei 12 Zhuang. A visit to an Emei 12 Zhuang master would also be necessary, as Jim Roselando did to confirm/identify the similarities to the existing art's signatures. For example, we Yip Man people can immediately see Yip Man signatures in the 3 forms, the name Siu Nim Tao, Huen Sao, Sup Ji Sao, Luk Sao, Fak Sao, Dan Chi Sao, the pattern of the Jong with Lop Geng Sao, Pak Sao 3X, etc. and know that is derived from Yip Man WCK and not other WCK.

Yes, Opera were classified as the lowest classes (ha ha! Like a certain entertaining master Wong says, "WCK is for low class people"! LOL!) - and its possible a certain revolutionary Yik Kam got tired of all the fighting/conflict and rescued by monks that restored him to health - he became aware that good health and perhaps spiritual attainment became more of his goals instead and passed on this art. Perhaps that is why few have a chance to learn this. I agree it would be antithetical - at least in that context in combat, but of course a weapon is in the hands and decision of a user. Perhaps the means were blunted for this individual and he did not want more bloodshed. The individual writing this Kuen Kuit is definately refined and scholarly and dealing with high level elements of Chinese medical system, and of course, Buddhist background. China in the 18th and 19th century had few literate on these subject matters to bring them all together in this art form.

The person taking up this endeavor would have to be good at classical Chinese and draw the comparisons, and also be able to completely verify this as true or not. I am drawing a roadmap for future generations of WCK historians who want to research this fully, as I believe my life's path will not allow me to go much further on this. I spend my life helping the sick and dying of cancer, not researching WCK. Even then, if that future successor of the Yik Kam SLT could use the technology of the art on himself and prove to himself and the followers of the Kuen Kuit put into practice and heal/empower themselves, that would be great. Of course, they would want to contact the elder of Yik Kam SLT in China (as well as South East Asia, where the art flourished from the Cho family teachings) and make comparisons to the set passed onto them, along with the applications. And at least those current WCK historians who want to write this off, let them at least consider the plausability of this theory as set forth by Hendrik Santo and research it more fully before discounting it. Again, it is better than "Take my word for it", or "WCK descended from Shaolin", or "famous person so and so says...". I would also say the Chinese martial arts community would want to look at this also and bring together the Weng Chun White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang family. It could all be done.

Critical thinking, rather than faith, and examining all of this will certainly yield results. I write this not as an attack on anyone, but to agree with you Terence. When I met Hendrik, I thought many of the same things. I don't believe this, but as I listened, and read, and compared more and more, and saw, and investigated more, I found this to be closer to the truth than I ever imagined. Even the Buddha admonishes us, "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." Words from over 2500 years ago still can guide us today, and even the generation of tomorrow. Today I am semi-retired from WCK and do not derive financial livelihood from WCK, I have no agenda to push or sell. I hope the future generations will investigate this further.

[t_niehoff]

Robert, Chee, etc.,

There's no point trying to reason with HFY people. You can't use reason (rationality) with irrational people. Personally, I think to even have discussions with them only tends to legitimize them and their nonsense -- as though they somehow belong at the WCK table and that we're speaking to them as equals. Serious people, in my view, shouldn't waste their time with wackos or even take them or their views seriously.

[Wayfaring]

Robert, Chee, etc.,

There's no point trying to reason with HFY people. You can't use reason (rationality) with irrational people. Personally, I think to even have discussions with them only tends to legitimize them and their nonsense -- as though they somehow belong at the WCK table and that we're speaking to them as equals. Serious people, in my view, shouldn't waste their time with wackos or even take them or their views seriously.

<sarcasm>
Yeah, you're right. There's no reasoning with this class of people. And while you're at it, we might just make a list of the other classes of people that you can't discuss or reason with as it might legitimize them. Like lawyers. Or different races. Or secondary English speakers. Or TCMA'ists.

We really need to get back to only reasoning with those that are pure in motivation and concept. You know, like Hitler's master race.
</sarcasm>

[CFT]

By definition you can't reason with irrational people.
But I wouldn't put you in that class, even if you are HFY(?) ;)

I just don't think it was reasonable to attack Hendrik using "evidence" which was of the same standard as his.

I prefer to debate without getting personal. Address the issues rather than personalities.

[Wayfaring]

Hendrik seems to have some very personal and seemingly authentic artifacts specific to his lineage of WCK that show where it came from. They are probably very inspiring to him.

There seems to be other artifacts out there that present a different source from other WCK lineages. These may have similar inspiration to others.

WCK seems unique in that people have attachment to what they perceive is the "real" WCK so they tend to argue roots issues. Other southern CMA's seem to be content with being different and attached to a different family art. In reality, WCK is probably more so this way than people want to think.

On top of this, there is a difference in Western and Eastern philosophical points of view. Eastern concepts highly value connection to the ancestors. Western concepts care little for this but highly value functionality.

All of this is mashed together in one forum.

[JPinAZ]

This is turning into a joke. Yeah, I questioned Hendrik's conclusions. I included a story and article simply to give another viewpoint, not as 'fact'. Then T came here and echoed my exact same questions. He got a pat on the back, I got insults. Funny T, your own sifu (?) said "Its a known lawyer trick that when there is no counter to the argument, then the character is attacked. " Still not learning anything from him are you?

In case you didn't notice, I'm one person, speaking for me. This 'HFY people' comment is rediculous. Same old attacks from the same group. I questioned Hendrik's conclusions and theories, then you all come running to his rescue. Can't he speak for himself? I could say "yeah, typical from all your Robert Chu people"... :rolleyes:

"I don't speak for anyone but myself. I do not have a group talking for me, nor one that I take a position with for identity."... oh really? And can Hendrik say that no one is speaking for him?

"In the end, you don't have to take my word or anyone's word. At least you should verify it yourself. That is scholarship." - thanks for the lesson. Someone can find 'truth' if they want too, whether it's there or not. If people want to find proof there's bigfoot, they'll find it. Doesn't make it real. Either way, I'm not here to become a scholar, just asking some questions. Hendrik says it's truth that YKS is the mother of all WCK and that WCK come from Emei and White Crane. Sorry I just don't buy it. His document only proves that somewhere at some time someone mixed some things into their 'WCK. His SLT only proves the same, that's all.

But I'm not attacking anyone. You guys really should relax.

[Ned]

CFT,

Chan Guo-Gei story is contrary to Hendrik’s generalization for all wing chun. Hendrik does not speak for all wings Chun. Thanks for your opinion.

I wonder if you accept Hendrik’s his-story for your lineage. Does he speak for your Wing Chun family? Does he speak for Victor’s Wing Chun family, Joy’s, or for that matter, everyone on the wing Chun forum with exceptions to T? Get the point?

If Hendrik his-story is so great and he’s the successor of Yik Kam and speaks for all Yik Kam then I feel sorry for the lineage. He can’t get his English straight. Four languages but master of none. He can’t even translate Chinese to English accurately.

If you don’t the point that Hendrik does not speak for all Wing Chun by now I’ll leave it to Hendrik’s rescue cult following. Hendrik is the biggest joke of lineage sucksessors who sings, talks about undead vampires, has multiple online personalities, poor language and NO KUNG FU. BTW, include T in this cult, he’s in the Hendrik closet.:eek:

Later,
Ned

[Hendrik]

Since you brought the above, why dont you translate the following as it is and let everyone knows what happen with Chan Guo-Gei/Chan Kok Kei and even if he is practicing WCK ?


I really hope you post something which is more solid such as Kuen Kuit and other classical writing or endorsement verification from the probably mother style...etc.

It is about educating the WCK community, everyone can join in and let the facts speak for itself.

--------------------

陈国基永春拳 (花洪拳) Chan Kok Kei Enternal spring or Fa Hung Kuen


陈国基家父陈家廉，擅长一字剑、十三枪及双刀拆棍等母系拳术。家廉自小在乡间学习自母亲黎好(妙显)之洪拳 ，长大后，1932年追随父亲陈汝棉前往广西授徒(之前从未在佛山授徒)，而母亲黎好则从顺德到佛山，留守 陈馆教授洪拳，陈汝棉之徒弟招就得以追随兼学其花洪拳。

解放后，中共禁止传授咏春拳，陈家廉在顺德一所小学中教授花洪拳。此时的弟子有谭焕标。而在解 放后始学习花 拳的黄仁智后反传陈家廉之子陈国基。谭焕标等现称此拳是顺德永春拳，实质是洪拳与部分咏春拳之 变异。

* 陈国基永春拳与冯少青之红船永春拳无关。

陈国基尊“至善禅师”为先师。他说此拳由至善所创，为纪念永春殿故取名为永春拳。又说清帝火烧福建少林寺， 只剩下永春殿(这是花拳之传说历史)。因为至善禅师、洪熙官、黄坤三人(这是洪拳之传说)当时外游，才免于 难云云。又说清庭发现永春拳是少林拳，因而剿之，于是改名“咏春”云云。所以陈国基复名为“永 春拳”。



陈国基自称学自家传。独有秘传后半部咏春拳套(祖母黎好之花洪拳拳套)；四门拳、伏虎拳、佛掌 “注1”、红 砂掌、梅花枪、九环刀等等。


现在之所谓 “ 下半部”咏春拳的招式，不过是把其他门派的招式胡混堆砌，包括有龙形、洪拳及鹰爪等，独不见咏 春精髓。

固此，陈国基及谭焕标之所谓“嫡传少林永春拳”实与吴仲素、叶问等所传（吴与问公均为陈国基之祖华公佛山门 下传人，因此问公于港传武期间仍称本门派为佛山咏春派）佛山咏春也无关。

[CFT]

Chan Guo-Gei story is contrary to Hendrik’s generalization for all wing chun. Hendrik does not speak for all wings Chun. Thanks for your opinion.

I wonder if you accept Hendrik’s his-story for your lineage. Does he speak for your Wing Chun family? Does he speak for Victor’s Wing Chun family, Joy’s, or for that matter, everyone on the wing Chun forum with exceptions to T? Get the point?So why should Chan Gwok-Gei's version of history have preeminence? Because you prefer his version? Because it tallys with what your sifu told you? The oral traditions of your lineage?

I don't have enough Wing Chun knowledge to evaluate whether Hendrik's theory that Fujian White Crane + Emei 12 Zhuang are the mother arts of WCK apply to all WCK. It is just as simple as that.


If Hendrik his-story is so great and he’s the successor of Yik Kam and speaks for all Yik Kam then I feel sorry for the lineage. He can’t get his English straight. Four languages but master of none. He can’t even translate Chinese to English accurately.One can only say that his written English is not particularly good, though times he can write very lucidly. I have seen brief snatches of his youtube videos and his spoken English seems far far better to me. You have no experience of his other language skills so you cannot possibly comment. If you have ever tried to translate between 2 languages then you will know how difficult it is to do a good job, especially when they belong in different language families.

[Hendrik]

I am too old for the history research.


I invite every RED BOAT OPERA WCner to examine and dig into the facts of WCK.


Dont take my words but starts your own research if you are interested.




For the Yik Kam lineage,
fuse the following two kuits and one can see a big picture of what Yik Kam SLT/SNT is about in 1850.

For other lineage WCners, examine these kuit and see if these applied to your SLT/SNT and your WCK.



DONOT take the story or his-story or Hendrik says or who says. Request for the Kuen Kuit as the following, Not oral story of this or that but written training documents. Those who are the true Inner circuit student of the style in the ancient China inherit these stuffs.

The Emei 12 Zhuang documents is now available in Beijing Museum. Major set of Emei 12 zhuang kuit and white Crane fujian kuit also have been published since 1980.



This is a sample of how much details available for us WCner today to dig in and examine....


DONOT settle for less, get the details and decide for yourself.

In my lineage we have checked with the practioner of the Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper.

Jim roselando visited GM Fu or Emei, and Russell Chung who study the Yik Kam SLT and the Small letter Zhuang of the Emei visited and get GM Fu to correct his practice. Thus, we know first hand what happen.

and there are certain special term of Fujian White Crane which is rarely used today exist in Yik Kam SLT also verified with Fujian White Crane practioner,




all we have done in the past 30 years can open to every RED BOAT Opera WCner for research and close examination. Everything can open under the SUN.

Decide for yourself and make your own decision on what you find. Donot take anyone's word, that is Do not take my words too.


------------------

the following is a brief crude translation of the emei 12 zhuang kuit, a mother of Yik Kam SLT: which talks about Intention and Qi flow




Small Zhuang and Big Zhuang (posture), Within the Kuit, there hidden the Zhuang. Using the forward and reverse in complementary fashion Never forget about this while Investigating and cultivating. Heaven and Earth 12 postures, Training deligently (one) needs to master the small (details); Using this advance Kuit ; mastering Ten Thousand items begun from the small ( details).

(From) stance to legs (motion)- forward or backward ; The upper of the three section : hands within motion and stillness, The middle of the three secetion : front bent, back bent, or side turn. One must totaly “master” this method (all must be linked into one piece)

Investigate the small posture while (practicing with) stillness and motion. (its) Qi and Mai, on the surface, and deep (within the body)

External application and Internally subdue (one's own heart) or the demon (one’s own illusion ); The enemy is injured but not even noticed.....

Start the praticed with Heaven posture Stand in the equal shoulder stance ;The heart (mind) is balance (tranquile/peace) and the breathing is quite Both eyes stares forward (far) away; Start with moving left hand forward Settle the Ying palm at shoulder high Finger toward the sky then transform into the center Mai (half Ying half Yang medirian) Sweep (reel) spiral while return to waist. Five finger tracing the Tai chi circle….. (this is the tai chi circle talks about in Jim Roselando meeting with the gate keeper of the Emei 12 Zhuang.) http://www.emeiqigong.us/articles/articles.html

Sticking/glue-ing - searching for palm and wrist. Massage/Pressing/Covering to listern/sinking - his/her force. Dont fight against the rushing horse’s ging, horizontally, locked the incoming wild bull’s feet.

Sealing/Closing - borrow the incoming technics……


Attain the Samadhi instantly “meet” the Amida Buddha This is (the) ultimate method, (one) needs to take refuge to the Guru (patriach) Active or silent (silence) isnt a hinderance (to) each other The buddha nature attain thus master.

The wonderfull applications of this posture Big or Small is depending on yee (intention) ...

Even within the realm of Asura (figthing god) Compassionate comes within us (we); The disciples of Buddha (we) take the precept of not killing and hurting (living beings)






The following is the writing of another mother of Yik Kam SLT , the White Crane of Fujian ; which talks about momentum, physical which related to Mun Sau, Bai Jong, and inch Power, huen sau...... (can someone please do a brief translation? thanks)



昭陽 (Facing Sun momentum)

<白鶴仙師祖傳真法> 中的 <方七娘白鶴拳十五勢>，就載有 : [跌、砍拳…招陽、……]十五個勢法，並注明如何動作及攻防意義之所在。…….這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法，當是當時 所傳教的。

比如十五勢拳譜中所寫： [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五：凡拳起手，只要招 (昭)陽，無論他用何勢，可用此勢，大門放過，小門直入。蓋此勢兩手顧鼻面，短牙顧中攔切，戒分 腳退後。]……。

On Inch Jing Join Power

………永春白鶴拳以 “ 寸勁節力 “ 見稱，能集中全身之力，於一剎那間發出，達到最好的持擊效果。要求力從胸起如雷從地發，蓄於身腰，發於臂手 。……..

……..雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成昭陽手，分成三節，肩至肘為內節，肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到內節 如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；………

圈手入側門，坐節沉肘，肩墮；成昭陽手，手入即身入；不用僵力。

三) 兩手昭陽、吞吐節力：雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成「昭陽手」，分成三節，肩至肘為內節(根節)，肘關節為中節， 腕關節為尾節，要做到內節如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。雙手來去出力 發勁，出手時吐氣(吐)，收手時吸氣(吞)，一吞一吐互相配合無間，堅持「中門不讓，子午不離」。練習時與 肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串一氣，互相呼應，如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯，吞肩坐節(墜肘)，發胛力，勁達指尖。 出手時節中隨身與胯同向，不可縮入開出，手節對膝，承接全身各處之力。




Finally, for those who is claiming their WCK is older or olderest or from other source such as Wu Dang or Shao Lin, I politely ask for details evidence as above for cross examination,

so WCNERS can understand where are you come from. instead of take someone's words.

[chusauli]

I do want to say I welcome discussion from any reasonable fellow WCK bretheren, and I treat everyone as an individual, not with prejudice for any group or affiliation.

As far as old issues in the past, I do not look at that with relevance to now. Life is really short. I see people dying and suffering with illness everyday. What is the use of petty BS when you know life is so short and so filled with suffering? Everyone should have peace.

And for others that may have a difference of opinion, that is fine. This is a discussion board after all.

Some of us may be friends here, and others may be not so familiar. There is no "Robert Chu people/group" talking, nor any "us against them".

Best regards,

[punchdrunk]

It's only fair to report the history and possible prejudisms of people calling themselves historians, that way the public can judge for themselves if there are potential conflicts of interest. To say there are no allies or friendly and enemy groups in the discussions involving Benny Meng, HFY Garrett Gee, Black Flag, or Robert Chu's Chu sau lei is ridiculous. As they say know the source of the water you drink.

[chusauli]

My guru once said, "Have position, have opposition." Then he discussed more on the nature of attachment and said, "Big position, big opposition..."

Which lead to "Small position, small opposition..."

and finally he said, "No position..."

[duende]

I do want to say I welcome discussion from any reasonable fellow WCK bretheren, and I treat everyone as an individual, not with prejudice for any group or affiliation.

As far as old issues in the past, I do not look at that with relevance to now. Life is really short. I see people dying and suffering with illness everyday. What is the use of petty BS when you know life is so short and so filled with suffering? Everyone should have peace.

And for others that may have a difference of opinion, that is fine. This is a discussion board after all.

Some of us may be friends here, and others may be not so familiar. There is no "Robert Chu people/group" talking, nor any "us against them".

Best regards,

I concur with the above sentiments. I would only add, that there is no "HFY people/group" talking here either.


For example, we Yip Man people can immediately see Yip Man signatures in the 3 forms, the name Siu Nim Tao, Huen Sao, Sup Ji Sao, Luk Sao, Fak Sao, Dan Chi Sao, the pattern of the Jong with Lop Geng Sao, Pak Sao 3X, etc. and know that is derived from Yip Man WCK and not other WCK.


Robert, can you clarify your statement here? The reason I ask is because I'm curious if you think that these "signatures" are unique to YM or just merely shared in common?

Many of the above "signatures" are present in the WCK I study, but are not expressed in the same manner. Also, the method of these expressions I am referring to, share a continuos logic flow that is exemplified by our WC formula. And therefore expressed in other techniques (signatures) of ours, that are not present in YM WCK.

Thanks to everyone for the positive discussion.

Alex

[Hendrik]

In TCMA traing

The following mechanics are very different even some external appearance can looks similar

White Crane's Fujian's 12 section power set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&h...&feature=relat


Can someone translate the following White Crane of fujian's describetion on the mechanics?

分成三節，肩至肘為內節(根節)，肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到內節如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體； 中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。雙手來去出力發勁，出手時吐氣(吐)，收手時吸氣(吞)， 一吞一吐互相 配合無間，堅持「中門不讓，子午不離」。" Never comprimized on the middle front gate, never leave the center line "


練習時與肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串一氣，互相呼應，如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯，吞肩坐節(墜肘) ，發胛力，勁 達指尖。出手時節中隨身與胯同向，不可縮入開出，手節對膝，承接全身各處之力。



Hung gar Iron wire set with 12 kiu (bridge)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM

Here is the mechanics of Iron Wire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0&feature=related



Dig in deep and make a comparision on the above two style's mechanics instruction and you share see their different even as on how they use thier hands or wrist section. Not to mention, the mechanics influence the acceleration of the power generation.

a different in power generation type Ie in acceleration make the art very different due to the power generation greatly influence the range of the art.

In general, IE for short bridge close body art the power generation acceleration needs to be much faster then the long bridge type of art. a wrong type of power generation will screw the whole art up, that is forsure.




Different type of Nei kung -- handling of shoulder section, elbow, hands, syncronize with breathing, body alignments.... etc.


So what is SLT/SNT's mechanics? according to Yik Kam's SLT, SLT has both the above White Crane fujian type of mechanics and also the mechanics of Emei 12 zhuang which is even more refine in details compare with the White crane of fujian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Thus, the set is called Siu Lien Tau meaning those who master this set masters the fine details. Siu Lien means cultivate the fine details. This is also the reason of the old saying "siu Lien tau is simple to study but difficult to master" because it loads with fine details handling which is very subtle.

Personally, my habit of paying attention to different details is a result of my training of Siu Lien Tau.



AS my objection of doing SLT/SNT as in Iron Wire set with those Kiu Sau mechanics, that is because one will lost the fine details , power generation type, and the 「中門不讓，子午不離」 or " Never comprimized on the middle front gate, never leave the center line "(as in the above fujian white crane description).

this above objection is not my invention and finding because This is the instruction my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy gave me in point blank when he saw one of his student, a Hung Gar master performing SLT in the Iron wire way.

A side topic here, WCK's center line theory, where is it from? White Crane of fujian? Shao Lin? wudang?

Check it out for yourself in the classical Chinese martial art documents for past 1000 years and see for yourself when is those 「中門不讓，子午不離」 or " Never compremise on the middle front gate, never leave the center line " concept is first originate/ appear in the history of Chinese martial art?

TRaining process, mechanics can verify History and history also can verify the process, mechanics of an art. So, Dont take anyone's words. Dig really deep. What is existing in the past always leave a trace to be tracked.

We who live in todays world have access to lots of data to verify things.



To the next generation WCners who do the research, it doesnt matter I am right or wrong or if the Yik Kam lineage preserve what. What important is step on the research the Yik Kam /Cho family lineage has done as a piece of data to find the SLT/SNT a proper engine and turn it on to benifit others.
We carry the research this far because we are just a stepping stone for the future WCners. We are just running a marathon on trying to truthfully preserve every piece of information for the future generation to be able to trace back and evolve, that is the teaching of my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy.

[JPinAZ]

A side topic here, WCK's center line theory, where is it from? White Crane of fujian? Shao Lin? wudang?


It comes from looking at the nature of things, maximum efficiency and economy of motion - it doesn't have to come from some other style. But, other styles may see things similarily.

[Hendrik]

It comes from looking at the nature of things, maximum efficiency and economy of motion - it doesn't have to come from some other style. But, other styles may see things similarily.


What you said is correct.

who and when it is likely to be originate and which style influences which style could be studied in depth if one read through the Chinese Martial art classical documents since 1500.

[JPinAZ]

What you said is correct.

Of course it's correct! who can argue with nature? You can only chose to accept it or not.


who and when it is likely to be originate and which style influences which style could be studied in depth if one read through the Chinese Martial art classical documents since 1500.

But what does it matter what style might have influenced what 500 years ago? WCK principals will still be the same tomorrow as they are today regardless.
We dont have to look back at some other, possible unrelated styles from 500 years ago to understand that. All that matters is, do I understand the principals and concepts and can I apply them today.

[Hendrik]

But what does it matter what style might have influenced what 500 years ago? WCK principals will still be the same tomorrow as they are today regardless.
We dont have to look back at some other, possible unrelated styles from 500 years ago to understand that. All that matters is, do I understand the principals and concepts and can I apply them today.


You are right.

However, there are different ways of applying the principle due to the power generation evolution for past 500 years.

Different power generation leads to different ways of applying the principle , pair up with different technics, and that will influence the effectiveness of the art.

IE: a fast acceleration rate power generation close body art and a lower acceleration rate power generation longer range art will have a different way of address the center line principle and the application technics.

It is just reality and details.... Chinese Martial art has evolved around1600, then around 1800,....... for those who is interested can trace it to study it.

[JPinAZ]

You are right.

However, there are different ways of applying the principle due to the power generation evolution for past 500 years.

Different power generation leads to different ways of applying the principle , pair up with different technics, and that will influence the effectiveness of the art.

IE: a fast acceleration rate power generation close body art and a lower acceleration rate power generation longer range art will have a different way of address the center line principle and the application technics.

It is just reality and details.... Chinese Martial art has evolved around1600, then around 1800,....... for those who is interested can trace it to study it.

What are you even talking about? Do you even 'practice' WCK? As I said, in application?
Centerline principal has nothing to do with fast or slow power generation or anything else. Centerline is centerline. You don't 'apply' it, you either understand and are guided by it or you are not. Long range, short range, doesn't matter. It doesn't change.

If talking about self centerline, it's about proper body awareness. If talking about spacial or 'shared' CL, then you must understand proper structure, how to occupy space properly between you and your opponent, and proper energy usage. That shouldn't change whether you are talking today, yesterday or 100 years ago.

It seems you don't really understand the principals of WCK the way you write, at least not beyond speculation and theorizing.
Do you even spar or 'apply' WCK in a physical sense with opponents or even training partners? Or is all just about doing SLT in a room somewhere? You want to 'study' about Centerline, you have to train against an opponent. You can't read about it in a book and really know what it is about..

[Hendrik]

What are you even talking about? Do you even 'practice' WCK? As I said, in application?
Centerline principal has nothing to do with fast or slow power generation or anything else. Centerline is centerline. You don't 'apply' it, you either understand and are guided by it or you are not. Long range, short range, doesn't matter. It doesn't change.

If talking about self centerline, it's about proper body awareness. If talking about spacial or 'shared' CL, then you must understand proper structure, how to occupy space properly between you and your opponent, and proper energy usage. That shouldn't change whether you are talking today, yesterday or 100 years ago.

It seems you don't really understand the principals of WCK the way you write, at least not beyond speculation and theorizing.
Do you even spar or 'apply' WCK in a physical sense with opponents or even training partners? Or is all just about doing SLT in a room somewhere? You want to 'study' about Centerline, you have to train against an opponent. You can't read about it in a book and really know what it is about..



You have an excellent point!


I let you discuss with others while I retire to listern to my old songs collection.


For those who love and know old songs only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA4REeu1cYU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftcO6nj-0xA&feature=PlayList&p=7BEEFC23FEABD0A6&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yImP1pzXUjY&feature=PlayList&p=7BEEFC23FEABD0A6&index=12

[canglong]

Originally posted by Robert Chu
My guru once said, "Have position, have opposition." Then he discussed more on the nature of attachment and said, "Big position, big opposition..."

Which lead to "Small position, small opposition..."

and finally he said, "No position..."
If only you had listened and learned.
"Those that know don't talk"
"Those that talk don't know"
Whenever you talk to this audience you say that
and whenever you talk to that audience you say this
your contradictions are abound on the interenet.
Robert you are one that talks because you like the sound of your own voice,
what a pity.

[canglong]

The following mechanics are very different even some external appearance can looks similar
hendrik wants you to take everything on faith he is the ultimate snake oil salesman. As long as hendrik can keep you from putting your hands on any part of his discussion he is content in his little world and in his mind. hendrik does not understand that he does not get to pick and choose the principles of wing chun.
hendrik does not understand that his opinions are not fact.

Nor does hendrik understand that when the Chi Sim master places hendrik on his @ss the 2 most important parts of the disccussion are over.
1. hendrik does not know what he is saying.
2. hendrik doesn't know what he is doing.

[Hendrik]

hendrik wants you to take everything on faith he is the ultimate snake oil salesman. .


No one needs to believe me,

just translate what the White Crane of Fujian documents which describe the requirements of the White Crane machenics and compare it to the youtube explanation of the 12 bridge of Iron Wire mechanics.

See for yourself.

Within the TCMA these above are just a tip of a big ice berg, there are many different mechanics. Thus, those who is serious in TCMA needs to know.

[chusauli]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
For example, we Yip Man people can immediately see Yip Man signatures in the 3 forms, the name Siu Nim Tao, Huen Sao, Sup Ji Sao, Luk Sao, Fak Sao, Dan Chi Sao, the pattern of the Jong with Lop Geng Sao, Pak Sao 3X, etc. and know that is derived from Yip Man WCK and not other WCK.

Robert, can you clarify your statement here? The reason I ask is because I'm curious if you think that these "signatures" are unique to YM or just merely shared in common?

Many of the above "signatures" are present in the WCK I study, but are not expressed in the same manner. Also, the method of these expressions I am referring to, share a continuos logic flow that is exemplified by our WC formula. And therefore expressed in other techniques (signatures) of ours, that are not present in YM WCK.

Thanks to everyone for the positive discussion.

Alex

Alex,

Without this turning into an attack on any one WCK branch, let's examine the earlier WCK that we find in Fushan, Guang Dong, Cao Xi, etc. Let's be objective as possible, as there might be facts we all don't know. With critical thinking, we can analyze what is and then scrutinize carefully. If we have no reference or information, then we don't know anything is true.

When we look at the other branches of WCK in China, unless they adopted the term, or had contact with Yip Man, the name of the first set is "Siu Lien Tao" (Little Training Set). An example is Pan Nam WCK, they call their first set SNT because Pan Nam learned a bit from Yip Man. If you see YKS or other branches, they call it SLT.

Other China WCK does the Lop Sao or reverse Huen Sao, whereas Yip Man WCK does it from inside to out. Even when you look at Yip's early students in Futshan, they do it with the reverse Huen Sao... So the inside Huen Sao was taught when Yip Man began teaching in HK after 1949.

Other WCK branches do a rolling Sup Ji Sao. In Yip Man WCK, we do it straight down, then up. Yik Kam SLT retains the double Wu Sao of Emei 12 Zhuang. Even some of Yip Man's students do a rolling Sup Ji Sao opening like Leung Sheung or Ho Kam Ming...so the Sup Ji Sao has a distinct trademark or Yip Man.

We know from history, Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan were pioneers of Luk Sao. Actually YKS created it, and Yip Man adopted it.

Fak Sao in Biu Jee is horizontal or vertical in earlier systems. In Yip Man system in HK, it comes from down to up.

In Yip Man's Jong, he starts with the Lop Geng Sao in 1st and 2nd sections, followed by the 3rd section of Pak Sao 3 X, followed by Fuk. The signature is there. Other Jong sets in earlier WCK do not have that pattern. Even TWC, which is a Yip Man WCK derivative, also has these signatures in their Jong set.

So my discussion here is "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, has a bill like a duck....", you call it for what it is...a duck. Similarly, if a WCK has the above signatures, it is remarkably coincidental to Yip Man's WCK.

Of course, Yip Man and others may have had coincidentally the "same dream", "mysterious teacher in the shadows", "sworn secret that he could not talk about", "blood oath" or other myriad stories that we hear about in martial arts that explain these remarkable coincidences.

No one is defaming or calling anyone a liar, or doubting anyone's word, or questioning character, or doubting anyone's lineage, but at least there is some logical analysis and critical thinking, and I hope to give my fellow WCK brothers some reference point to base their logic on.

If history shows me to be wrong, I would gladly retract my words and admit I made a mistake, after all, we are fallible beings. But again, Buddhists believe, "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." These are words of the Buddha, and a good guide for critical thinking.

BTW, A good reference book might be Leung Ting's Book, "Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun". Of course seeing the myriad multiple lineages in person and on youtube also helps.

Hope this helps, Alex.

[chusauli]

BTW,

Yip Man's name "Chum Kiu" (Seeking bridge) is also different than other branches' use of Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge).

Dan Chi Sao is also a creation of Yip Man, other branches do not use this, and only recently adopted it.

[Vajramusti]

RE;"We know from history, Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan were pioneers of Luk Sao. Actually YKS created it, and Yip Man adopted it."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good post! On the above- I don't know- could have been reverse, or product of somerimes working out together.Not a big deal.

In any case. Ip Man Wing Chun has very distinct and unique markers and signatures.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

Alex,

Without this turning into an attack on any one WCK branch, let's examine the earlier WCK that we find in Fushan, Guang Dong, Cao Xi, etc. Let's be objective as possible, as there might be facts we all don't know. With critical thinking, we can analyze what is and then scrutinize carefully. If we have no reference or information, then we don't know anything is true.

When we look at the other branches of WCK in China, unless they adopted the term, or had contact with Yip Man, the name of the first set is "Siu Lien Tao" (Little Training Set). An example is Pan Nam WCK, they call their first set SNT because Pan Nam learned a bit from Yip Man. If you see YKS or other branches, they call it SLT.

Other China WCK does the Lop Sao or reverse Huen Sao, whereas Yip Man WCK does it from inside to out. Even when you look at Yip's early students in Futshan, they do it with the reverse Huen Sao... So the inside Huen Sao was taught when Yip Man began teaching in HK after 1949.

Other WCK branches do a rolling Sup Ji Sao. In Yip Man WCK, we do it straight down, then up. Yik Kam SLT retains the double Wu Sao of Emei 12 Zhuang. Even some of Yip Man's students do a rolling Sup Ji Sao opening like Leung Sheung or Ho Kam Ming...so the Sup Ji Sao has a distinct trademark or Yip Man.

We know from history, Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan were pioneers of Luk Sao. Actually YKS created it, and Yip Man adopted it.

Fak Sao in Biu Jee is horizontal or vertical in earlier systems. In Yip Man system in HK, it comes from down to up.

In Yip Man's Jong, he starts with the Lop Geng Sao in 1st and 2nd sections, followed by the 3rd section of Pak Sao 3 X, followed by Fuk. The signature is there. Other Jong sets in earlier WCK do not have that pattern. Even TWC, which is a Yip Man WCK derivative, also has these signatures in their Jong set.

So my discussion here is "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, has a bill like a duck....", you call it for what it is...a duck. Similarly, if a WCK has the above signatures, it is remarkably coincidental to Yip Man's WCK.

Of course, Yip Man and others may have had coincidentally the "same dream", "mysterious teacher in the shadows", "sworn secret that he could not talk about", "blood oath" or other myriad stories that we hear about in martial arts that explain these remarkable coincidences.

No one is defaming or calling anyone a liar, or doubting anyone's word, or questioning character, or doubting anyone's lineage, but at least there is some logical analysis and critical thinking, and I hope to give my fellow WCK brothers some reference point to base their logic on.

If history shows me to be wrong, I would gladly retract my words and admit I made a mistake, after all, we are fallible beings. But again, Buddhists believe, "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." These are words of the Buddha, and a good guide for critical thinking.

BTW, A good reference book might be Leung Ting's Book, "Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun". Of course seeing the myriad multiple lineages in person and on youtube also helps.

Hope this helps, Alex.

And that's the tip of the iceberg.

It's funny when people come forward with claims that their WCK lineage is "the original" or "very old" or "coming directly from Shaolin" but nevertheless have many of the elements of their curriculum coming from the Yip Man era ("siu nim", "chum kiu" for seeking, calling the knife form baat jaam doh, the luk sao platform of chi sao, the dan chi sao, chi gerk, the signature movements in the forms, and so on).

[chusauli]

Chr Two Ni
E Jya La
Mi Li Ju
Bwo Li Dan La Ye
Ning Jye Li

[eomonroe00]

all kung fu has similarities, all styles, does that mean they all took from each other?

[Wayfaring]

And that's the tip of the iceberg.

It's funny when people come forward with claims that their WCK lineage is "the original" or "very old" or "coming directly from Shaolin" but nevertheless have many of the elements of their curriculum coming from the Yip Man era ("siu nim", "chum kiu" for seeking, calling the knife form baat jaam doh, the luk sao platform of chi sao, the dan chi sao, chi gerk, the signature movements in the forms, and so on).

HFY has a completely different chi sau platform than the Yip Man system. Elements of it are also reflected in signature movements in the forms, which make the forms different than Yip Man signature forms. This plus simple logistics of migration place it as a mainland China branch of WCK as opposed to a Hong Kong branch of WCK as Yip Man derivatives are.

[t_niehoff]

HFY has a completely different chi sau platform than the Yip Man system. Elements of it are also reflected in signature movements in the forms, which make the forms different than Yip Man signature forms. This plus simple logistics of migration place it as a mainland China branch of WCK as opposed to a Hong Kong branch of WCK as Yip Man derivatives are.

No, HFY uses the luk sao platform that YKS created and Yip Man adopted. You may do things differently now, but it came from Yip Man WCK. HFY forms are TWC forms that were modified, and TWC forms have the Yip Man signatures all over them (not surprising since Cheung learned from Yip). Not to mention that HFY has terminology created by Yip Man, other drills created by Yip Man (like the dan chi sao), etc.

And you can't show anything about HFY logistics other than it began in San Francisco.

[Ned]

T so emotional and belligerent.

[Wayfaring]

No, HFY uses the luk sao platform that YKS created and Yip Man adopted. You may do things differently now, but it came from Yip Man WCK. HFY forms are TWC forms that were modified, and TWC forms have the Yip Man signatures all over them (not surprising since Cheung learned from Yip). Not to mention that HFY has terminology created by Yip Man, other drills created by Yip Man (like the dan chi sao), etc.

And you can't show anything about HFY logistics other than it began in San Francisco.

You show such passionate irrationality when speaking of HFY that one would think you have a deep-seated desire to study it, despite all your arguments to the contrary.

[duende]

Alex,

Without this turning into an attack on any one WCK branch, let's examine the earlier WCK that we find in Fushan, Guang Dong, Cao Xi, etc. Let's be objective as possible, as there might be facts we all don't know. With critical thinking, we can analyze what is and then scrutinize carefully. If we have no reference or information, then we don't know anything is true.

When we look at the other branches of WCK in China, unless they adopted the term, or had contact with Yip Man, the name of the first set is "Siu Lien Tao" (Little Training Set). An example is Pan Nam WCK, they call their first set SNT because Pan Nam learned a bit from Yip Man. If you see YKS or other branches, they call it SLT.


Or maybe it was always intended to be both. The little idea and the little drills to support the little idea.

No attacks felt or meant here either btw.



Other China WCK does the Lop Sao or reverse Huen Sao, whereas Yip Man WCK does it from inside to out. Even when you look at Yip's early students in Futshan, they do it with the reverse Huen Sao... So the inside Huen Sao was taught when Yip Man began teaching in HK after 1949.


No offense, but what you have written here sounds like a quite an assumption imo. As from my perspective, whether "Huen Sao" is done from inside to out, or outside to in is dependant on the box theories. Meaning the concepts of Loi Mun/Ngoi Mun, and not whether or not they learned WC before or after 1949, which ignores a lot of history btw.

I would say this technique has roots more likely in earlier animal forms such as "cat washes face". WC just took the technique, and defined it with a greater awareness of the physics of body mechanics, defensive gate theory, as well as a focus on maximum efficiency.

But then again, our perspectives are different because we typically employ dai huen sau which is a much larger circle then those seen in the YM SNT. We do this to so as to "cover our gates". The smaller huen found in YM for us is just a part of our Chi Kiu rolling drills and is used to prevent wrist locks.




Other WCK branches do a rolling Sup Ji Sao. In Yip Man WCK, we do it straight down, then up. Yik Kam SLT retains the double Wu Sao of Emei 12 Zhuang. Even some of Yip Man's students do a rolling Sup Ji Sao opening like Leung Sheung or Ho Kam Ming...so the Sup Ji Sao has a distinct trademark or Yip Man.


It is sometimes difficult understanding other WC's terminology. So I'm not sure what shape/technique you are referring to here. As we do not use the term Sup Ji Sao. Tried to find a visual example online, but had no success. So I'll have to with hold any response here.



We know from history, Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan were pioneers of Luk Sao. Actually YKS created it, and Yip Man adopted it.


We don't use the term Luk Sao either. But from looking online, it looks just like a game... a version of a Bong/Lop drill.

Are you saying that YKS invented the transition from Bong to Lop?? To be honest, I do not personally see any real purpose for this Luk Sao drill nor do see any real world application for it. At least not what I found on youtube etc... This kind of transition is just begging for a trap imo, as it provides no leverage, no control, and no real influence on your opponents energy. What good is sensitivity, if you are not in a position to do anything effectively??

Anyways, Chi Sau is such a general term, it is silly imo to give credit to any one person for creating a "sticking hand" drill. Heck, give me a half hour, and partner and I'll invent a rolling platform myself! Be it single, two hand, or two feet for that matter. ;)

For us Chi Sau is about chasing space, not chasing hands.

As for "bong lop" we utilize two versions of a "bong lop" drill. But the body mechanics required for Bong/Lop fit into the rolling platform of Kiu Sau, not Chi Sau.

One is for Duei Ying facing Hok Bong and opening up the line, while the other is for Jeui Ying tracing and changing of the line as in Ying Bong. While there are some similarities, the footwork, bridging/body mechanics, and facing are all different.



Fak Sao in Biu Jee is horizontal or vertical in earlier systems. In Yip Man system in HK, it comes from down to up.


I was able to find Fak Sau online. It looks similar to either a front facing Saat Geng Sau (which we prefer not to do), or a horizontal Fut Sau. Interestingly enough, we have three Fut Sau's in the second section of our SNT. Horizontal, Vertical, and Diagonal. The SLT drilling for these are found in our Fut Sau/Fau Kiu Kiu Sau section of our Sei Dim Buhn Kiu Sau Jong Faat.

Anyways, my point here is that there is much more out than just YM understandings and presentations of these shapes and techniques in discussion. I can give you explanations, uses, logic flow, body mechanics, historical perspectives for all the above examples you mentioned from a distinctly different perspective than YM.

And FWIW, by saying this, I mean no insult to YM or his legacy. i actually have a great respect for him and what he has done for WCK.

I also suspect he knew alot more WC then he let out btw.



So my discussion here is "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, has a bill like a duck....", you call it for what it is...a duck. Similarly, if a WCK has the above signatures, it is remarkably coincidental to Yip Man's WCK.



Or maybe if it looks like WCK, functions like WCK, has the concepts of WCK... then it is WCK.

I don't agree that YM has to have his own signature to the extent you do. Then of course, there is also the many subjective understandings/ variations of what this YM signature is anyways.

Thanks for your response.

And I'll check out that book on Leung Ting. If nothing else, it will help us communicate better.

regards,

Alex

[duende]

BTW,

Yip Man's name "Chum Kiu" (Seeking bridge) is also different than other branches' use of Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge).

Dan Chi Sao is also a creation of Yip Man, other branches do not use this, and only recently adopted it.

Yeah, I remember very well people being freaked out by or at least surprized by our SINKING BRIDGE explanation of Chum Kiu.

I seem to recall you being surprized too Robert. ;) :) But I could be wrong, that was a long time ago.

As for Dan Chi Sau. Again.. our Dan Chi Sau is different than YM, as the YM version has no heaven/upper gate coverage. And neutralizes incoming energy in a different manner than the way we do.

Btw, we also have a Dan Kiu Sau, and and Dan Ch Kiu... ****e... guess he must of invented those too. :eek: :D

Seriously though.. it's all good. I appreciate our differences actually. It's also cool finding and seeing similarities too!

Best

[duende]

No, HFY uses the luk sao platform that YKS created and Yip Man adopted. You may do things differently now, but it came from Yip Man WCK. HFY forms are TWC forms that were modified, and TWC forms have the Yip Man signatures all over them (not surprising since Cheung learned from Yip). Not to mention that HFY has terminology created by Yip Man, other drills created by Yip Man (like the dan chi sao), etc.

And you can't show anything about HFY logistics other than it began in San Francisco.

The only explanation I can give for this seriously whacked conclusion of yours is that you probably saw some former Moy Yat instructor transitioning to Hung Fa Yi.

Other than that, your other assumptions have been addressed, shot down, and put to rest long ago.

You must be truly bored T.

Because not more than three pages back, you said you wanted nothing whatsoever to do with us. And now, here once again.. you go spending all this time and energy.
:D

[t_niehoff]

The only explanation I can give for this seriously whacked conclusion of yours is that you probably saw some former Moy Yat instructor transitioning to Hung Fa Yi.


I saw Garrett Gee transitioning to HFY.



Other than that, your other assumptions have been addressed, shot down, and put to rest long ago.


Nothing has been shot down. It's patently obvious that HFY is a Yip Man WCK offshoot.



You must be truly bored T.

Because not more than three pages back, you said you wanted nothing whatsoever to do with us. And now, here once again.. you go spending all this time and energy.
:D

Oh, I won't talk WCK with you guys since you guys are in fantasy land. But it's always worthwhile to clear up fraudulant claims.

[duende]

I saw Garrett Gee transitioning to HFY.


Really... all from one seminar where you sat on the bench and didn't touch hands with anyone. So much for critical thinking... :rolleyes:




Nothing has been shot down. It's patently obvious that HFY is a Yip Man WCK offshoot.


So says the self-proclaimed expert. :rolleyes:



Oh, I won't talk WCK with you guys since you guys are in fantasy land. But it's always worthwhile to clear up fraudulant claims.

Well then... you must have your hands full at home. Always a pleasure T
:)

[chusauli]

Or maybe it was always intended to be both. The little idea and the little drills to support the little idea.

No attacks felt or meant here either btw.



No offense, but what you have written here sounds like a quite an assumption imo. As from my perspective, whether "Huen Sao" is done from inside to out, or outside to in is dependant on the box theories. Meaning the concepts of Loi Mun/Ngoi Mun, and not whether or not they learned WC before or after 1949, which ignores a lot of history btw.

I would say this technique has roots more likely in earlier animal forms such as "cat washes face". WC just took the technique, and defined it with a greater awareness of the physics of body mechanics, defensive gate theory, as well as a focus on maximum efficiency.

But then again, our perspectives are different because we typically employ dai huen sau which is a much larger circle then those seen in the YM SNT. We do this to so as to "cover our gates". The smaller huen found in YM for us is just a part of our Chi Kiu rolling drills and is used to prevent wrist locks.




It is sometimes difficult understanding other WC's terminology. So I'm not sure what shape/technique you are referring to here. As we do not use the term Sup Ji Sao. Tried to find a visual example online, but had no success. So I'll have to with hold any response here.



We don't use the term Luk Sao either. But from looking online, it looks just like a game... a version of a Bong/Lop drill.

Are you saying that YKS invented the transition from Bong to Lop?? To be honest, I do not personally see any real purpose for this Luk Sao drill nor do see any real world application for it. At least not what I found on youtube etc... This kind of transition is just begging for a trap imo, as it provides no leverage, no control, and no real influence on your opponents energy. What good is sensitivity, if you are not in a position to do anything effectively??

Anyways, Chi Sau is such a general term, it is silly imo to give credit to any one person for creating a "sticking hand" drill. Heck, give me a half hour, and partner and I'll invent a rolling platform myself! Be it single, two hand, or two feet for that matter. ;)

For us Chi Sau is about chasing space, not chasing hands.

As for "bong lop" we utilize two versions of a "bong lop" drill. But the body mechanics required for Bong/Lop fit into the rolling platform of Kiu Sau, not Chi Sau.

One is for Duei Ying facing Hok Bong and opening up the line, while the other is for Jeui Ying tracing and changing of the line as in Ying Bong. While there are some similarities, the footwork, bridging/body mechanics, and facing are all different.



I was able to find Fak Sau online. It looks similar to either a front facing Saat Geng Sau (which we prefer not to do), or a horizontal Fut Sau. Interestingly enough, we have three Fut Sau's in the second section of our SNT. Horizontal, Vertical, and Diagonal. The SLT drilling for these are found in our Fut Sau/Fau Kiu Kiu Sau section of our Sei Dim Buhn Kiu Sau Jong Faat.

Anyways, my point here is that there is much more out than just YM understandings and presentations of these shapes and techniques in discussion. I can give you explanations, uses, logic flow, body mechanics, historical perspectives for all the above examples you mentioned from a distinctly different perspective than YM.

And FWIW, by saying this, I mean no insult to YM or his legacy. i actually have a great respect for him and what he has done for WCK.

I also suspect he knew alot more WC then he let out btw.



Or maybe if it looks like WCK, functions like WCK, has the concepts of WCK... then it is WCK.

I don't agree that YM has to have his own signature to the extent you do. Then of course, there is also the many subjective understandings/ variations of what this YM signature is anyways.

Thanks for your response.

And I'll check out that book on Leung Ting. If nothing else, it will help us communicate better.

regards,

Alex

Alex,

Siu Nim Tao is Yip Man's term, not anyone else's. Siu Lien Tao is the original name of the term.

Most of the mainland WCK uses "Huen Sao" which is opposite to Yip Man's...the Huen when Yip Man started to teach in HK was from inner to outer gate. All systems have a circle hand, for example Tai Ji has various sizes of cloud hands.

Luk Sao or Poon Sao is the standard rolling hands of Chi Sao. Poor Chi Sao is chasing hands. Proper Chi Sao is chasing body - in other words, tracking the space and controlling the space of the opponent, so I agree with you here.

All WCK uses Dui Ying/Juie Ying.

Fak Sao or Fut Sao (aka Mun Sao) is either horizontal or Diagonally upward or vertical from down to up. In Yip Man's Biu Jee set, it has changed from the mainland China counterparts which use a horizontal or hand upwards type. Refer to the Biu Jee of mainland China sets and you will see Yip Man's WCK is very distinct.

I did not say YKS invented Bong to Lop, you are. YKS created the Luk/Poon Sao exercise of 4 variations.

Thank you for your time.

[chusauli]

Yeah, I remember very well people being freaked out by or at least surprized by our SINKING BRIDGE explanation of Chum Kiu.

I seem to recall you being surprized too Robert. ;) :) But I could be wrong, that was a long time ago.

As for Dan Chi Sau. Again.. our Dan Chi Sau is different than YM, as the YM version has no heaven/upper gate coverage. And neutralizes incoming energy in a different manner than the way we do.

Btw, we also have a Dan Kiu Sau, and and Dan Ch Kiu... ****e... guess he must of invented those too. :eek: :D

Seriously though.. it's all good. I appreciate our differences actually. It's also cool finding and seeing similarities too!

Best

Hi Alex,

I was not surprised if a mainland system used the term Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge).

I would only be surprised at why use Yip Man's term of Chum Kiu (Seeking bridge)?

Alex, I am talking about the Dan Chi Sao exercise that Yip Man introduced. Regarding the height, Yip Man derived TWC also uses a higher height in doing the exercise.

If you start out in Tan, then strike out with a palm, then turn to Bong, while the other party starts in Fuk, then uses Jut, and finally a punch, regardless of height, that is Yip Man's exercise. Later the drill becomes more freestyle - simply look at Augustine Fong teaching the drill and you see it is a very sticking bridge you develop.

Dan Kiu Sao and Dan Chi Kiu are your own HFY terms for your own exercises.

Yes, interesting similarities.

Best regards,

[t_niehoff]

Really... all from one seminar where you sat on the bench and didn't touch hands with anyone. So much for critical thinking... :rolleyes:


There you go lying again. Must be a HFY thing. You guys are so used to accepting stories and lies, you can't do anything else. You weren't at the Friendship Seminar, so you don't know what happened. You just report what you've been told -- and interestingly enough, by someone who you guys NOW label as a "former Moy Yat instructor transitioning to Hung Fa Yi."



So says the self-proclaimed expert. :rolleyes:


That's a laugh -- the pot calling the kettle balck. Who is the self-proclaimed grandmaster?

[t_niehoff]

Hi Alex,

I was not surprised if a mainland system used the term Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge).

I would only be surprised at why use Yip Man's term of Chum Kiu (Seeking bridge)?

Alex, I am talking about the Dan Chi Sao exercise that Yip Man introduced. Regarding the height, Yip Man derived TWC also uses a higher height in doing the exercise.

If you start out in Tan, then strike out with a palm, then turn to Bong, while the other party starts in Fuk, then uses Jut, and finally a punch, regardless of height, that is Yip Man's exercise. Later the drill becomes more freestyle - simply look at Augustine Fong teaching the drill and you see it is a very sticking bridge you develop.

Dan Kiu Sao and Dan Chi Kiu are your own HFY terms for your own exercises.



This is blatantly obvious except to people who don't want to see the truth.

It's the same with everything we pointed out. The luk sao chi sao platform where the participants have a bong/tan and high/low fook sao and move between permutations of them isn't how anyone in WCK did chi sao until YKS created it. No one in WCK called their knife form baat jaam doh until Yip. No one in WCK called their first form "small idea" or second from "seeking bridge". Everyone in WCK performed the huen's at the end of form movements to the outside to lop until Ng Chung So (Yip's classmate and teacher) changed and started doing it to the inside. And the list goes on. Isn't it simply amaqzing that HFY which claims to come from Shaolin unchanged has all these things that were developed in the early to mid 20th century?

[Stevehans]

This is blatantly obvious except to people who don't want to see the truth.

It's the same with everything we pointed out. The luk sao chi sao platform where the participants have a bong/tan and high/low fook sao and move between permutations of them isn't how anyone in WCK did chi sao until YKS created it. No one in WCK called their knife form baat jaam doh until Yip. No one in WCK called their first form "small idea" or second from "seeking bridge". Everyone in WCK performed the huen's at the end of form movements to the outside to lop until Ng Chung So (Yip's classmate and teacher) changed and started doing it to the inside. And the list goes on. Isn't it simply amaqzing that HFY which claims to come from Shaolin unchanged has all these things that were developed in the early to mid 20th century?

Where is the documentation to verify your claims ?

So i take it you were present in witnessing these events ? :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

Isn't it simply amaqzing that HFY which claims to come from Shaolin unchanged has all these things that were developed in the early to mid 20th century?

did you already forget this on the last page?


Oh, I won't talk WCK with you guys since you guys are in fantasy land

You repeatedly say you want nothing to do with HFY.
And you repeatedly say you don't want to talk to anyone from HFY.
Yet here you are, still talking about HFY.
And still talking with people from HFY
And obviously still attached and nut hugging whether you see it or not..

You just can't help yourself can you? ;)

[Bo_toxic]

Instead of listening to Hendrik's Omei fantasy and Robert Chu's personal opinions about wing chun history, people should take a deep look into the history of wing chun according to Yip Man's teacher Chan Wah Seun. Here is Chan Wah Suen's own account about where wing chun came from. Chan Wah Suen was a direct student under Leung Jan. Chan Wah Suen was the one who introduced wing chun to the public and Yip Man was one of sixteen students in his wing chun class.

據報導，關於詠春拳與永春拳的關係，李小龍師傅葉問的兒子葉準會以 「香港詠春體肓會」 董事局主席身分去順德探訪華公（對詠春早期宗師陳華順的尊稱）後人陳汝棉之子陳國基，發現陳汝棉神位寫的是 「永春」拳。陳汝棉是陳華順之子，所習的是眾所周知的「詠春拳」，為什麽神位上卻寫的是「詠春 」 呢？
報導稱，陳國基解釋，爺爺陳華順臨終前對父親說：「詠春拳原本出自少林寺的「永春堂」、原來是教「永春拳」 的，後來清廷火燒少林寺，於是少林寺儈眾包括在「永春堂」中習「詠春拳」的儈眾在内，皆被清廷緝捕，「永春 」門人便將「永春拳」改為「詠春拳」以掩人耳目」。陳華順遺言：若他日清廷被推翻後，「詠春拳」便將認祖歸 宗重新改回叫「永春拳」。

This is a report about the relationship between Wing Chun Kuen (詠春拳) and Weng Chun Kuen (永春拳). Bruce Lee’s Sifu Yip Man’s son Yip Chun [Hong Kong Wing Chun Association] using his position as president steps into 順德 Shundu to go interview 華公 Wah Gung (the name they called the earlier Wing Chun Grandmaster Chun Wah Seun “陳華順“) 陳汝棉 Chan Yu Min‘s son 陳國基 Chan Guo-Gei discovered that on 陳汝棉 Chan Yu-Min‘s 神位 writes the words 「永春」Weng Chun Kuen. 陳汝棉 Chan Yu-Min is 陳華順 Chan Wah-Suen‘s son, he practiced what is known publicly as「詠春拳」Wing Chun Kuen. Why then on his 神位 it doesn’t write「詠春」Wing Chun? 陳國基 Chan Guo-Gei explains, grandpa 陳華順 Chan Wah-Suen before passing away told my father: 「the origin of Wing Chun Kuen came from Shaolin’s 「永春堂」Wing Chun Tong, and originally teaches 「永春拳」Weng Chun Kuen. Later the Ching Army burned down the Shaolin Temples, therefore all Shaolin Monks that were inclusive in 「永春堂」Weng Chun Tong that was practicing wing chun kuen were warranted for arrest. Fellow authorities of 「永春」Weng Chun participants and practitioners thereby changed the name of 「永春拳」Weng Chun Kuen to 「詠春拳」Wing Chun Kuen to create avoidance of any association. 陳華順 Chan Wah-Suen swears: that if one day the Ching Army is abolished,「詠春拳」Wing Chun Kuen will take refuge back to the original ancestry and revert it’s orginal name and change back to 「永春拳」Weng Chun Kuen。

[Hendrik]

Could some one please translate this too?



陈国基永春拳 (花洪拳) Chan Kok Kei Enternal spring or Fa Hung Kuen


陈国基家父陈家廉，擅长一字剑、十三枪及双刀拆棍等母系拳术。家廉自小在乡间学习自母亲黎好(妙显)之洪拳 ，长大后，1932年追随父亲陈汝棉前往广西授徒(之前从未在佛山授徒)，而母亲黎好则从顺德到佛山，留守 陈馆教授洪拳，陈汝棉之徒弟招就得以追随兼学其花洪拳。

解放后，中共禁止传授咏春拳，陈家廉在顺德一所小学中教授花洪拳。此时的弟子有谭焕标。而在解 放后始学习花 拳的黄仁智后反传陈家廉之子陈国基。谭焕标等现称此拳是顺德永春拳，实质是洪拳与部分咏春拳之 变异。

* 陈国基永春拳与冯少青之红船永春拳无关。



陈国基尊“至善禅师”为先师。他说此拳由至善所创，为纪念永春殿故取名为永春拳。又说清帝火烧福建少林寺， 只剩下永春殿(这是花拳之传说历史)。因为至善禅师、洪熙官、黄坤三人(这是洪拳之传说)当时外游，才免于 难云云。又说清庭发现永春拳是少林拳，因而剿之，于是改名“咏春”云云。所以陈国基复名为“永 春拳”。



陈国基自称学自家传。独有秘传后半部咏春拳套(祖母黎好之花洪拳拳套)；四门拳、伏虎拳、佛掌 “注1”、红 砂掌、梅花枪、九环刀等等。


现在之所谓 “ 下半部”咏春拳的招式，不过是把其他门派的招式胡混堆砌，包括有龙形、洪拳及鹰爪等，独不见咏 春精髓。

固此，陈国基及谭焕标之所谓“嫡传少林永春拳”实与吴仲素、叶问等所传（吴与问公均为陈国基之 祖华公佛山门 下传人，因此问公于港传武期间仍称本门派为佛山咏春派）佛山咏春也无关。

[t_niehoff]

Where is the documentation to verify your claims ?

So i take it you were present in witnessing these events ? :rolleyes:

No, but all you have to do is look at branches of WCK that we can document and prove really existed (as opposed to HFY) -- with real, living people -- prior to Yip Man and see what things were in their currciulums. Moreover, Sum Nung, until very recently was alive, and he was present when YKS developed the luk sao platform of chi sao.

Someone below pointed out Chan Wah Shun's story (everybody, btw, has a different story -- why do people believe any of the myths are true?). If you look at his currciulum, he doesn't have those developments I mentioned, including the luk sao platform.

The real problem is that this sort of thing takes time and discernment. And, when your art's entire framework DEPENDS on your origin myth being true, it makes you both unwilling to do that work and unwilling to see things as they really are.

[t_niehoff]

did you already forget this on the last page?



You repeatedly say you want nothing to do with HFY.
And you repeatedly say you don't want to talk to anyone from HFY.
Yet here you are, still talking about HFY.
And still talking with people from HFY
And obviously still attached and nut hugging whether you see it or not..

You just can't help yourself can you? ;)

I don't want anything to do with Benny Meng either -- but when he claimed to have healed terminal cancer patients with his qi gong (on HFY108 forum), I wanted to point out what a fraud he was. Same principle at work here. :)

[duende]

Hi Alex,

I was not surprised if a mainland system used the term Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge).

I would only be surprised at why use Yip Man's term of Chum Kiu (Seeking bridge)?

Alex, I am talking about the Dan Chi Sao exercise that Yip Man introduced. Regarding the height, Yip Man derived TWC also uses a higher height in doing the exercise.


Yeah, thanks to Phil's recent vid's of TWC Dan Chi Sau, I was able to see what they do. And while yes I agree that it appears that they have much in common with YM Dan Chi Sau, it is not what we do.



If you start out in Tan, then strike out with a palm, then turn to Bong, while the other party starts in Fuk, then uses Jut, and finally a punch, regardless of height, that is Yip Man's exercise. Later the drill becomes more freestyle - simply look at Augustine Fong teaching the drill and you see it is a very sticking bridge you develop.


Here's an article from the 1930's describing Chan Wah Shun's usage of Chi Sau. Of course this predates Yip Man or YKS.

清朝康熙年間。福建「永春白鶴拳」始創人方七娘，又名方詠春與其夫曾四在福建永春一帶廣收門徒 傳藝，其中最 傑出者為鄭禮。鄭禮從方詠春處學藝成功之後，也廣收門徒影響最為深遠。其鶴拳中有拳訣曰：「內 節硬如鐵，外 節軟如棉」。近代鄭禮傳人如潘世諷、林寶山、鄭文存等著名拳師。為何外人誤稱鄭禮傳人謂永春拳 師，這與「永 春白鶴拳」、簡稱「永春拳」有密切關係。其實鄭禮之「永春白鶴拳」與紅船戲班「至禪永春拳」並 不相同。這與 廣東佛山「詠春拳」更牛頭不對馬嘴。佛山「詠春拳」在四十年代中，甚少人能有機緣接觸，我輩族 人當時亦聞佛 山陳華順之名，其詠春拳之「黏手短打」在佛山一帶很是出名。根據當時方氏家族亦曾見聞來自湖北 賣藝者,也曾 以「黏手追形打法」的紅花拳甚為相似。現佛山一帶均以陳華順之詠春拳流傳民間。筆者方氏家族亦 以鶴拳打遍福 建一帶、略有聲名。時年1923，王薌齋曾與本族人砌磋武功四勝六負、這証明鶴拳或許對日後王 薌齋所創的意 拳有一定的影響。【福建武林誌】
Quote:
During the Ching Dynasty, "康熙" Era. In Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen (永春白鶴拳) developer 方七娘,also called Fong Wing Chun and his husband 曾四 was accepting students spreading the art in the general area of Fokien Weng Chun County. Amongst the most successful successors of their students was 鄭禮. After 鄭禮 had successfully learned the art from Fong Wing Chun, he started spreading the art through influential success. Within the Crane Kuen Style transfers the Kuen Slogan: [Internally hard like Iron, Externally soft like cotton]. Recent disciples of 鄭禮 such as 潘世諷、林寶山、鄭文存, etc famous boxers. Why then does the public misrepresent that 鄭禮's disciple descendents as "Weng Chun Boxers". This so called [Weng Chun White Crane Kuen], short for [Weng Chun Kuen] has a close relationship. Therefore, 鄭禮's [Weng Chun White Crane Kuen] and Red Boat Opera's Chi Sim Weng Chun kuen 至禪永春拳 is not the same. This in comparison to Canton Foshan's Wing Chun Kuen 詠春拳 is also in chinese slang we called the Cow's head does not match the Horse's mouth [牛頭不對馬嘴]. Foshan [Wing Chun Kuen] in the 40's has very few people with the opportunity to encounter or practice. My ancestor's during thier times had heard about the name 陳華順 from Foshan. The Close quarter Chi Sao combat was very famously known in Foshan. According to that time, the Fong's family members also eye witnessed the Chi-Sao Chasing Combat called Hung Fa Kuen 紅花拳style from the 湖北 Martial Artist as very similar. Modern day 40's Foshan mostly 陳華順's Wing Chun Kuen became widely spread to the public. The Author of the Fong's Family using Crane Boxing defeated many challengers in Fokien province and also gaining alot of Fame. In the year 1923,王薌齋, also have challenged fights with my ancestors totaling a 4 Win 6 Lost record. As evidenced by this experience, it shows that the Crane Kuen or so later developed Yi Kuen from 王薌齋 has a definitive impact and influence.



Robert,

I must admit that I am disappointed that you are putting such emphasis on mere drills for these so called "YM signatures" of yours. As human beings, we only have two arms and two legs... Chi Sai has been around for centuries. Do you actually expect people to believe that only in the 20th century TCMA's got around to doing Tan Bong Fook Dan Chi Sau, or Bong Lop Chi Sau??? This is ridiculous imo.

Also, who came up with these premises that YM or YKS invented these drills? Do you have any documentation of them saying so?? I don't think so.

Heck, did you know that Hung Gar has a rolling hand strikingly similar to Bong Lop. Did YKS teach that to them too??

My point here is that "signatures", should not be based on drills, but instead actual core body mechanics and physical expressions of concepts.

And moreover... drills even techniques... can be adapted into anyone's system via personal expression or a simply by Sifu's choice to incorporate them.

No doubt, you yourself have incorporated techniques you've learned apart from your SIfu HC. If this fit's into your system's expression and the logic flow you created, then fine... more power too you. I see nothing wrong with incorporating any techniques from anywhere. But they do not define a system's identity, as what truly defines a system is it's logic flow, and core concepts. Not techniques or drills.

In regards to the Huen Sau... Yip Man obviously knew both inside to out, and outside to in. Which is exactly why I say I think he knew alot more WC then he ever let on! :D Who he taught what to is still of great debate obviously. We do both. I don't see how this is a signature except with in YM groups themselves. And even among them it is superfluous at best.

As for Deui Ying and Juei Ying. Sure, maybe we all use this terminology. But how we express them is different. And by looking into these differences, one can see actual core body mechanics and physical expressions of principles and concepts within each system. For example... I would say that here lies the main difference between TWC and other YM WC.

Anyways, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on some things. No sense in us looping and going back and forth.

regards,

[Hendrik]

Quote:
武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴 拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名， 不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴 拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。 但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界 中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉
Translated article rough draft:
Quote:
In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of 馮京 miswritten as 馬凉. The author is Fokien 莆田 White Crane Boxer 方洽庄‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>



http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=938245&postcount=76


hahaha I leave it to the future generation to sort it out.

[duende]

There you go lying again. Must be a HFY thing. You guys are so used to accepting stories and lies, you can't do anything else. You weren't at the Friendship Seminar, so you don't know what happened. You just report what you've been told -- and interestingly enough, by someone who you guys NOW label as a "former Moy Yat instructor transitioning to Hung Fa Yi."


Terence,

If you were any kind of man at all you would have brought up these issues back then with my Sifu. He touched everyone's hands who wanted a chance to try him out, even Rene's while waiting in the lunch line.

Instead you sat on the bench, and now for ten years you have been nothing but a internet mouth boxer.

So much time an energy wasted. How sad you are.

TERENCE.... YOU truly are the one living in fantasy land. No one else here can dedicate so much time to online obsessions such as you.

Put us on your ignore list, I dare you.

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

If you were any kind of man at all you would have brought up these issues back then with my Sifu. He touched everyone's hands who wanted a chance to try him out, even Rene's while waiting in the lunch line.


Dude, that was my first intro to HFY, I didn't know what sort of claims he/HFY would later make. Quite frankly, I did read the history of Hung Suen WCK in "Complete Wing Chun" but thought that no one, including Garrett, took that history seriously -- that it was a myth like everyone else's history. After I saw the HFY SNT and Garrett doing luk sao/chi sao, Garrett did ask me what I thought and I told him that it looked like TWC but with more theory. He asked me waht did I mean by more theory, and I told him. I called Robert that night and told him about the surprise demo by Garrett. Robert asked me what I thought and I told him that it looked like TWC but with more theory, and that I wasn't impressed. And as I learned more, the less impressed I became.

What is it with this "touching hands" nonsense? So he can do chi sao. BFD. A retarded chimp could do chi sao.



Instead you sat on the bench, and now for ten years you have been nothing but a internet mouth boxer.

So much time an energy wasted. How sad you are.

TERENCE.... YOU truly are the one living in fantasy land. No one else here can dedicate so much time to online obsessions such as you.


I don't think it "energy wasted" to point out fraud, nonsense, and the like.

And, yeah, I'm the one living in fantasyland -- and you believe that HFY was developed in Shaolin as the most advanced fighting method, came directly from Shaolin unchanged in hundreds of years, taught widely but secretly so that no one ever heard or saw it, etc. OK. Yeah. Right.



Put us on your ignore list, I dare you.

I don't ignore.

[Bo_toxic]

Here is Chan Wah Suen's own account about where wing chun came from. Chan Wah Suen was a direct student under Leung Jan. Chan Wah Suen was the one who introduced wing chun to the public and Yip Man was one of sixteen students in his wing chun class.


報導稱，陳國基解釋，爺爺陳華順臨終前對父親說：「詠春拳原本出自少林寺的「永春堂」、原來是 教「永春拳」 的，後來清廷火燒少林寺，於是少林寺儈眾包括在「永春堂」中習「詠春拳」的儈眾在内，皆被清廷 緝捕，「永春 」門人便將「永春拳」改為「詠春拳」以掩人耳目」。陳華順遺言：若他日清廷被推翻後，「詠春拳 」便將認祖歸 宗重新改回叫「永春拳」。

Chan Guo-Gei explains, grandpa 陳華順 Chan Wah-Suen before passing away told my father: 「the origin of Wing Chun Kuen came from Shaolin’s 「永春堂」Weng Chun Tong, and originally teaches 「永春拳」Weng Chun Kuen. Later the Ching Army burned down the Shaolin Temples, therefore all Shaolin Monks that were inclusive in 「永春堂」Weng Chun Tong that was practicing wing chun kuen were warranted for arrest. Fellow authorities of 「永春」Weng Chun participants and practitioners thereby changed the name of 「永春拳」Weng Chun Kuen to 「詠春拳」Wing Chun Kuen to create avoidance of any association. 陳華順 Chan Wah-Suen swears: that if one day the Ching Army is abolished,「詠春拳」Wing Chun Kuen will take refuge back to the original ancestry and revert it’s orginal name and change back to 「永春拳」Weng Chun Kuen。
Hendrik,
I thought we were having an honest discussion here but I see all you want to do is play games. This discussion has nothing to do with Chan Guo-Gei's kung fu and everything to do with the facts of Chan Wah Suen's description of Wing Chun origins, that being Shaolin something you seem to always want to overlook. Hendrik if you have to resort to underhanded character assassinations to prove your point I doubt your point is worth hearing in the future please at least try and stick to the topic.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
I thought we were having an honest discussion here but I see all you want to do is play games.


Honest discussion means translate the following so that there are more data to be reference to and see how things or history evolve from various angles.

In this case, what I am asking for is only ---- some one please translate the following.


Play games means ignore data. In this case, ignoring the following data for different agenda instead of facing reality.



陈国基永春拳 (花洪拳) Chan Kok Kei Enternal spring or Fa Hung Kuen


陈国基家父陈家廉，擅长一字剑、十三枪及双刀拆棍等母系拳术。家廉自小在乡间学习自母亲黎好(妙显)之洪拳 ，长大后，1932年追随父亲陈汝棉前往广西授徒(之前从未在佛山授徒)，而母亲黎好则从顺德到佛山，留守 陈馆教授洪拳，陈汝棉之徒弟招就得以追随兼学其花洪拳。

解放后，中共禁止传授咏春拳，陈家廉在顺德一所小学中教授花洪拳。此时的弟子有谭焕标。而在解 放后始学习花 拳的黄仁智后反传陈家廉之子陈国基。谭焕标等现称此拳是顺德永春拳，实质是洪拳与部分咏春拳之 变异。

* 陈国基永春拳与冯少青之红船永春拳无关。



陈国基尊“至善禅师”为先师。他说此拳由至善所创，为纪念永春殿故取名为永春拳。又说清帝火烧福建少林寺， 只剩下永春殿(这是花拳之传说历史)。因为至善禅师、洪熙官、黄坤三人(这是洪拳之传说)当时外游，才免于 难云云。又说清庭发现永春拳是少林拳，因而剿之，于是改名“咏春”云云。所以陈国基复名为“永 春拳”。



陈国基自称学自家传。独有秘传后半部咏春拳套(祖母黎好之花洪拳拳套)；四门拳、伏虎拳、佛掌 “注1”、红 砂掌、梅花枪、九环刀等等。


现在之所谓 “ 下半部”咏春拳的招式，不过是把其他门派的招式胡混堆砌，包括有龙形、洪拳及鹰爪等，独不见咏 春精髓。

固此，陈国基及谭焕标之所谓“嫡传少林永春拳”实与吴仲素、叶问等所传（吴与问公均为陈国基之 祖华公佛山门 下传人，因此问公于港传武期间仍称本门派为佛山咏春派）佛山咏春也无关。

[chusauli]

Interesting story of Chen Guo Jie, but let us ask, "Which Emperor burned down the Shaolin?"

It should be easy; all you have to do is go to the Qing archives and find out when.

This burning of the Shaolin, which should be a trigger event to created the secret societies should be easily traceable...

Based on Chen's story, you have to laugh. Do we have the following forms?

四门拳、Si Men Quan/Sae Moon Kuen
伏虎拳、Fu Hu Quan/Fuk Fu Kuen
佛掌, Fo Zhang/Fut Jeung
红 砂掌、Hong Sha Zhang/Hung Sa Jeung
梅花枪、Mei Hua Qiang/Muifa Cheung
九环刀等等, Jiu Huan Dao, Gou Wan Do, etc., etc.?

Is this WCK?

[chusauli]

Robert, <snip>

Anyways, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on some things. No sense in us looping and going back and forth.



Thank you Alex, we'll simply agree to disagree. Others can make a decision for themselves. You asked me, and I explained it to you from my perspective. I have done my best not to make anything here personal, nor an attack on any particular school.

I personally have no care, but if any system claims early development, yet has Yip Man signatures, they are ignoring some facts.

If, for example, I say my WCK is not derived from Yip Man and people see my forms, patterns, weapons, exercises...they will come to one conclusion...Robert Chu has learned Yip Man system. I am sure martial artists in the future and in Asia will read my words and find them reasonable.

In the end, all martial arts are made up. If you train in something you like and it works for you, that is great. Also, if you have a great teacher who is willing to train you, that is best. It matters not of system, but only of student and teacher. It only gets ridiculous when outlandish claims are done... an "ox head on horse's mouth"...something doesn't add up. In martial arts lore, "mysterious figures, nuns, monks, revolutionary leaders/groups" all pop up, and often we have no reconciliation of the inconsistencies.

All personal attacks, fighting to prove this right or wrong, character attacks is all "noise".

We are all WCK, so we are one family. All WCK has good and bad.

Peace,

[Vajramusti]

"We are all WCK, so we are one family"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are? I don't know what that means... but that is not important.

joy chaudhuri

[JPinAZ]

Curious Robert, when you went to HFY HQ to train/visit, did you feel that what was being taugh was essentially the same as the YM wc you had learned? Did you see these same 'signatures' then that you speak of now?
Also, did you ask to be a student of HFY?
I only ask because if you believe HFY comes from Yip Man as it looks like you and your student now imply, because of some silly 'signatures' you are seeing, what would HFY offer that you didn't already have?

Also, is it possible that these 'signatures' you see from YM could have come from somewhere else, something he learned and passed down rather than made up himself?
I think if one is going to objectively look at things the way you say you are, you might have considered this simple probablily. I mean, do you have any proof that the YM 'signatures' you see were really his invention, or could they be something passed down to him? Looking back only 50 years, can you even prove your theories?
Also, just because you think something 'looks similar' to something YM taught, doesn't mean it came from him. Could be the other way around now couldn't it...
See how easily one can make conclusions without having been there or having any proof? ;)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This isn't really a point about wck history per se, I just saw this skit and it reminded me that we all run the risk of making these kinds of errors in logic.

Man 1: "Is this your dog?"
Man 2: "Yes, he's very vicious, be careful."
Man 1: "Is he a father?"
Man 2: "Yes, he has 7 puppies, all as vicious as him."
Man 1: "So if this is your dog, and you say that your dog is a father, then this dog is your father, and his puppies are your brothers."
Man 2: "What?"
Man 1: "Do you beat your dog?"
Man 2: "Yes, when he's being vicious."
Man 1: "Then you beat your father. What disrespectful behaviour you have towards you father!"

This kind of argumentation may be fun, but it's not very productive. If we want to make headway in the discussion of WCK history, it's important that we be aware of and try to avoid this kind of association, especially in terms of terminology.

[Bo_toxic]

There are some really laughable things going on here. Robert Chu you are giving yourself way too much credit writing as if you
are some authority trying to discredit the accounts of others with your worthless words. Why place yourself so high Robert
then show yourself unworthy by acting just like Hendrik. History is not about what You like or dislike nor is the point in the article
about Chan Guo Gei's kung fu. You know acting like Hendrik confusing our discussion with your ideas does not change the facts.
Even though Chan Guo-Gei did not learn his grandfather's kung fu this is an acticle and discussion about Weng Chun and its' origins
within the Shaolin Weng Chun Tong and none of your useless double talk off topic will change that.

So when I see you Robert trying to attack Chan Guo-Gei himself that holds no water and it to is laughable. Further you
incriminate your self appointed authority with your baseless assumptions that Yip man and Yuen Kay San developed wing chun chi
sao because there are numerous sources like the ones from the article of the 1930 predating your theory suggesting wing chun chi sao
was being practiced prior to Yip Man.

Your own statements help to clarify why my Si gung Moy Yat rejected you as his student your lack of character and obsessive ego
and that is what is causing you all this pain leading to your desire to upstage some of the people, articles and facts you are always trying
to discredit with your useless theories, rumors and out right falsehoods.

[Wayfaring]

My perspective is a lot more simple than all of the more scholarly replies with Chinese articles and evaluations of terminology. I'd have defer to Robert, Hendrik and some others on those.

When we were transitioning in training between Moy Yat and HFY for a few years, the Moy Yat Yip Man chi sau platform progression we learned was dan chi sau - single and double hand, poon sau, luk sau, jeung sau, gor sau. In HFY the approach was completely different - we started with kiu sau training, which was always 6 gate stances, structured inner and outer hands. Fau Kiu kiu sau, Faat Sau kiu sau, Deui Yeng kiu sau, Bong Lap kiu sau, Kwan Sau kiu sau. These kiu sau were highlighted in the SNT form. Then the chi kiu platform and exercises were introduced, and finally chi sau.

To me, after training those 2 approaches, my conclusion is those two chi sau platforms are not even similar. After examining chi sau concepts with other Yip Man students, they don't get any closer. To me in some ways HFY's chi sau with kiu sau is more similar to other CMA's who also have kiu sau than it is to Yip Man chi sau, like hung gar or mantis.

But hey, what do I know? I just trained it for a few years. I didn't sit at a seminar or visit once and immediately perceive all the "signature" things that supposedly are the same between HFY and Yip Man thus becoming an expert.

[duende]

Dude, that was my first intro to HFY, I didn't know what sort of claims he/HFY would later make. Quite frankly, I did read the history of Hung Suen WCK in "Complete Wing Chun" but thought that no one, including Garrett, took that history seriously -- that it was a myth like everyone else's history. After I saw the HFY SNT and Garrett doing luk sao/chi sao, Garrett did ask me what I thought and I told him that it looked like TWC but with more theory. He asked me waht did I mean by more theory, and I told him. I called Robert that night and told him about the surprise demo by Garrett. Robert asked me what I thought and I told him that it looked like TWC but with more theory, and that I wasn't impressed. And as I learned more, the less impressed I became.

What is it with this "touching hands" nonsense? So he can do chi sao. BFD. A retarded chimp could do chi sao.


So everyone at the seminar who took the time to touch hands and actually train, was esentially a retarded chimp.... nice.

So to get it straight.. this is your philosphy...

REAL MEN who test each other and work out= chimps

People who sit on bench and talk ****=real WC experts and MA

Terence, you are now, not only delusional, but also an outright LIAR.

You had your chance to be a man, but instead you pussed out. Admit it. You are not fooling anyone here but yourself. You have nothing but failed here on KFO every single time you are called out to back up your big lying mouth.

Not even your KF brothers have your back. Maybe you should think about that.



I don't think it "energy wasted" to point out fraud, nonsense, and the like.


No of course you don't think it is a waste of time... you are SuperTerence!!!! ... the self-proclaimed guardian of WC.

Nah... you don't live in fantasyland. :rolleyes:

Anymore nonsense you want to discuss?? Oh wait... another 10 years of bull**** talk to someone like you is nothing.

[duende]

But hey, what do I know? I just trained it for a few years. I didn't sit at a seminar or visit once and immediately perceive all the "signature" things that supposedly are the same between HFY and Yip Man thus becoming an expert.

Woah... you actually took the time to research material before you made any conclusions??

What a novel idea...

[JPinAZ]

My perspective is a lot more simple than all of the more scholarly replies with Chinese articles and evaluations of terminology. I'd have defer to Robert, Hendrik and some others on those.

When we were transitioning in training between Moy Yat and HFY for a few years, the Moy Yat Yip Man chi sau platform progression we learned was dan chi sau - single and double hand, poon sau, luk sau, jeung sau, gor sau. In HFY the approach was completely different - we started with kiu sau training, which was always 6 gate stances, structured inner and outer hands. Fau Kiu kiu sau, Faat Sau kiu sau, Deui Yeng kiu sau, Bong Lap kiu sau, Kwan Sau kiu sau. These kiu sau were highlighted in the SNT form. Then the chi kiu platform and exercises were introduced, and finally chi sau.

To me, after training those 2 approaches, my conclusion is those two chi sau platforms are not even similar. After examining chi sau concepts with other Yip Man students, they don't get any closer. To me in some ways HFY's chi sau with kiu sau is more similar to other CMA's who also have kiu sau than it is to Yip Man chi sau, like hung gar or mantis.

But hey, what do I know? I just trained it for a few years. I didn't sit at a seminar or visit once and immediately perceive all the "signature" things that supposedly are the same between HFY and Yip Man thus becoming an expert.

Great post dave! :)

[chusauli]

"We are all WCK, so we are one family"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are? I don't know what that means... but that is not important.

joy chaudhuri


Sometimes I don't even mean what that means... :)

It means we go through samsara together and transverse the sea of suffering. WCK people have an affinity to WCK; at one time or another we had connection to this, so we come back to suffer more... :)

[chusauli]

There are some really laughable things going on here. Robert Chu you are giving yourself way too much credit writing as if you
are some authority trying to discredit the accounts of others with your worthless words. Why place yourself so high Robert
then show yourself unworthy by acting just like Hendrik. History is not about what You like or dislike nor is the point in the article
about Chan Guo Gei's kung fu. You know acting like Hendrik confusing our discussion with your ideas does not change the facts.
Even though Chan Guo-Gei did not learn his grandfather's kung fu this is an acticle and discussion about Weng Chun and its' origins
within the Shaolin Weng Chun Tong and none of your useless double talk off topic will change that.

So when I see you Robert trying to attack Chan Guo-Gei himself that holds no water and it to is laughable. Further you
incriminate your self appointed authority with your baseless assumptions that Yip man and Yuen Kay San developed wing chun chi
sao because there are numerous sources like the ones from the article of the 1930 predating your theory suggesting wing chun chi sao
was being practiced prior to Yip Man.

Your own statements help to clarify why my Si gung Moy Yat rejected you as his student your lack of character and obsessive ego
and that is what is causing you all this pain leading to your desire to upstage some of the people, articles and facts you are always trying
to discredit with your useless theories, rumors and out right falsehoods.



Bo Toxic,

Please, what is your real name? Some of these screen names are quite inconvenient...

What I showed was Chan's story is not deep or factually accurate. I don't think it has much basis here. You can research more and come to your own conclusions. I don't care if you believe me or not. Critical thinking is necessary, not knee jerk responses. You cannot believe everything you read as true, either. Remember what I said were the Buddha's words?

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. "

Also, I did not say YKS and Yip Man created Chi Sao - they created the Luk Sao/Poon Sao/Rolling hands platform. Please stand corrected. Chi Sao existed with the beginning of WCK. Perhaps the confusion here is you are not familiar with the terminology?

It was I who did not want to study with Moy Yat. He never rejected me. I did not want to study with him as I found his character incompatible. A martial arts relationship is a mutual thing.

Finally, there is no suffering here. Who is the one to suffer? We simply have a discussion about history. Where is the attachment? What good is it for me to upstage or discredit? You are projecting all of this, and it is a reflection of your thoughts.

[chusauli]

Curious Robert, when you went to HFY HQ to train/visit, did you feel that what was being taugh was essentially the same as the YM wc you had learned? Did you see these same 'signatures' then that you speak of now?
Also, did you ask to be a student of HFY?
I only ask because if you believe HFY comes from Yip Man as it looks like you and your student now imply, because of some silly 'signatures' you are seeing, what would HFY offer that you didn't already have?

Also, is it possible that these 'signatures' you see from YM could have come from somewhere else, something he learned and passed down rather than made up himself?
I think if one is going to objectively look at things the way you say you are, you might have considered this simple probablily. I mean, do you have any proof that the YM 'signatures' you see were really his invention, or could they be something passed down to him? Looking back only 50 years, can you even prove your theories?
Also, just because you think something 'looks similar' to something YM taught, doesn't mean it came from him. Could be the other way around now couldn't it...
See how easily one can make conclusions without having been there or having any proof? ;)

JPinAZ,

What is your real name, BTW? I'd really prefer to have discussions with people who use their real names and want to engage in civil discussion. We're all martial artists here. All of us can show belligerence, aggression, etc., but it is useless in a discussion.

I don't know if this is worthwhile answering your question. It seems like there is a pattern here that if someone doesn't like my answer, then all hell breaks loose. :)

When I came for a visit in Daly City, almost a decade ago, I felt essentially the forms and sets of Hung Suen, now HFY WCK, were pretty much the same as the TWC I learned from William Cheung and Rick Spain. So those signatures were there. TWC is, of course, another variant of Yip Man WCK. I was surprised how much your first set looked like Advanced Siu Nim Tao of TWC, and how your first 3 sections of the Jong looked almost identical to TWC's. Also how the Tan Sao and Bong Sao and Fuk Sao were held like TWC's.

I was curious in seeing more from HFY; being a fanatic in WCK then, I would study and look into any variant of WCK. My main question was how this art looked so close to TWC? I asked GG if I could see his pole set, he refused. I later found his 6.5 pole used the same core concepts as my master's (Lui Yon Sang's) pole set. Another mystery...

Why would these signatures be considered silly? All one has to do is look at mainland WCK and what Yip Man taught in HK. I simply pointed this out. There are my seniors and people in China and HK who can say the same thing - all you have to do is look at the various WCK lineages. Last year, I spent time with Mark Hobbs and looked closely at the Lun Gai WCK - you can see Yip Man signatures, as that was what Yip Man taught there in Futshan.

In the past, access to information was not the same as today. So direct contact must have been made. As for your speculation above, if that is how you reconcile things, that's fine. Just do some real research and not take anyone's word on it. It'd be a lot easier if we could trace HFY in China, see the sets, exercises and compare them. I'm sure your branch has a lot of unique variation, too.

One thing I must tell you is Chinese thought is situational - early Chinese thought is based on the Ba Gua and its myriad changes and 8 plus two directions. I do not always think that modern thought, which is more linear, as quite the same. I do put on different sets of glasses when I look at things...

Thank you for your time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Dude, that was my first intro to HFY, I didn't know what sort of claims he/HFY would later make. Quite frankly, I did read the history of Hung Suen WCK in "Complete Wing Chun" but thought that no one, including Garrett, took that history seriously -- that it was a myth like everyone else's history. After I saw the HFY SNT and Garrett doing luk sao/chi sao, Garrett did ask me what I thought and I told him that it looked like TWC but with more theory. He asked me waht did I mean by more theory, and I told him. I called Robert that night and told him about the surprise demo by Garrett. Robert asked me what I thought and I told him that it looked like TWC but with more theory, and that I wasn't impressed. And as I learned more, the less impressed I became.

What is it with this "touching hands" nonsense? So he can do chi sao. BFD. A retarded chimp could do chi sao.




So everyone at the seminar who took the time to touch hands and actually train, was esentially a retarded chimp.... nice.

So to get it straight.. this is your philosphy...

REAL MEN who test each other and work out= chimps

People who sit on bench and talk ****=real WC experts and MA

Terence, you are now, not only delusional, but also an outright LIAR.

You had your chance to be a man, but instead you pussed out. Admit it. You are not fooling anyone here but yourself. You have nothing but failed here on KFO every single time you are called out to back up your big lying mouth.

Not even your KF brothers have your back. Maybe you should think about that.

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
I don't think it "energy wasted" to point out fraud, nonsense, and the like.



No of course you don't think it is a waste of time... you are SuperTerence!!!! ... the self-proclaimed guardian of WC.

Nah... you don't live in fantasyland. :rolleyes:

Anymore nonsense you want to discuss?? Oh wait... another 10 years of bull**** talk to someone like you is nothing.


***EXACTLY... It's Terence Niehoff who is the biggest phony on KFO, and that fact needs to be exposed and driven home again-and-again. The guy talks the most 5hit of anybody, and he can't (won't) back up any of it.

And clearly the reason why he thinks that chi sao training (or kiu sao training) is useless is obviously because his personal knowledge/skill in it is basically ZILCH.

But he is good at the old lawyer's game of always continuing to make your point regardless of how exposed you and your point have become. Never admit you're wrong about anything. And just keep pounding away.

But this is not some courtroom. And talk that never gets backed up by action of any kind (ie.- this guy even keeps his face a mystery)...just doesn't cut it.

In a word, he's a blowhard.

[t_niehoff]

So everyone at the seminar who took the time to touch hands and actually train, was esentially a retarded chimp.... nice.

So to get it straight.. this is your philosphy...

REAL MEN who test each other and work out= chimps


No, that's not what I said or the context in which I responded. You said Garrett did chi sao with some peopel and presented that as evidence that he hjad the goods -- and I said that chi sao proved nothing, a retarded chimp could do chi sao.

Chi saso doesn't test anything other than you can perform the movements, techniques, etc. under unrealistic, artificial conditions. BFD. I did chi sao with lots of people at the seminar - Rene, Jeglum, Dzu, Dave, Keith Meyer, even some of Benny's guys. So what?



People who sit on bench and talk ****=real WC experts and MA


What makes Garrett a "WC expert"? He's never fought anyone in his life. Certainly not anyone with decent skills. So how in the world could he develop good WCK skills? By not fighting?



Terence, you are now, not only delusional, but also an outright LIAR.


I see, you weren't there at the seminar, I was, yet you know everything that happened there. Dude, the only part of the seminar I didn't participate in was Benny's portion where he "taught" chi sao. And it was only after we were snubbed by Benny and his students and their late night (2 am) lesson with Garrett -- that Dzu, Dave, and I caught them in since we were still at the VTM traning -- that I would no longer play with Benny's students.



You had your chance to be a man, but instead you pussed out. Admit it. You are not fooling anyone here but yourself. You have nothing but failed here on KFO every single time you are called out to back up your big lying mouth.


I'll take a play from your book and ask why you are being so very emotional? Is it that you are frustrated by not being able to present any evidence that HFY existedprior to Garrett? Or that internally, you can't reconcile the fact that all those Yip Man created developments have found their way into Garrett's "system" which he professes comes unchanged from Shaolin? Or, is it that deep in your heart you know Garrett can't have any real skill since he's never done the right kindof training to develop skill? Or. are you beginning, perhaps even unconsciously, to realize that you've wasted lots of money on learning what is essentially a fraud? I can see why you should be angry.



Not even your KF brothers have your back. Maybe you should think about that.


My "kung fu brothers" don't need to help me point out the nonsense that is HFY. And besides, we're not a cultlike HFY -- we don't have a "group mentality" so that if any of us get into a discussion the rest of the "group" chimes in.

[JPinAZ]

JPinAZ,

What is your real name, BTW? I'd really prefer to have discussions with people who use their real names and want to engage in civil discussion. We're all martial artists here. All of us can show belligerence, aggression, etc., but it is useless in a discussion.

My name is Jonathan. I sign my name here after some of my posts (not all, but some). My childhood knickname is JP, so I use that too. BFD.
Not really sure your point here? You trying to say I hide behind a false name or something? Are you really that dense you've missed my name in the many times I've left it here in the past few years (as well as on HFY108. BTW, I'm jonathan_AZ there). Oh, if you haven't figured it out, I live in Arizona too.

And not sure what all the belligerence, agression, etc is about, but whatever. :rolleyes:


I don't know if this is worthwhile answering your question. It seems like there is a pattern here that if someone doesn't like my answer, then all hell breaks loose. :)

When I came for a visit in Daly City, almost a decade ago, I felt essentially the forms and sets of Hung Suen, now HFY WCK, were pretty much the same as the TWC I learned from William Cheung and Rick Spain. So those signatures were there. TWC is, of course, another variant of Yip Man WCK. I was surprised how much your first set looked like Advanced Siu Nim Tao of TWC, and how your first 3 sections of the Jong looked almost identical to TWC's. Also how the Tan Sao and Bong Sao and Fuk Sao were held like TWC's.

I was curious in seeing more from HFY; being a fanatic in WCK then, I would study and look into any variant of WCK. My main question was how this art looked so close to TWC? I asked GG if I could see his pole set, he refused. I later found his 6.5 pole used the same core concepts as my master's (Lui Yon Sang's) pole set. Another mystery...

Why would these signatures be considered silly? All one has to do is look at mainland WCK and what Yip Man taught in HK. I simply pointed this out. There are my seniors and people in China and HK who can say the same thing - all you have to do is look at the various WCK lineages. Last year, I spent time with Mark Hobbs and looked closely at the Lun Gai WCK - you can see Yip Man signatures, as that was what Yip Man taught there in Futshan.

In the past, access to information was not the same as today. So direct contact must have been made. As for your speculation above, if that is how you reconcile things, that's fine. Just do some real research and not take anyone's word on it. It'd be a lot easier if we could trace HFY in China, see the sets, exercises and compare them. I'm sure your branch has a lot of unique variation, too.

One thing I must tell you is Chinese thought is situational - early Chinese thought is based on the Ba Gua and its myriad changes and 8 plus two directions. I do not always think that modern thought, which is more linear, as quite the same. I do put on different sets of glasses when I look at things...

Thank you for your time.

That's all very interesting.. What I find as silly is your assumption at thinking you are seeing 'YM signatures' in HFY. How long did you study with YM? When did you meet him again?
It's very possible that what you are seeing as 'YM Signatures' could just very well be 'WC signatures'. Again, where did YM get his WC from anyway? Did he make it all up? For that matter, didn't he have 2 teachers, one in HK and one on the mainland? Wonder what he learned from them...

It might be you are seeing older than YM lineage WCK signatures when you look at YM. See how easliy one can draw silly conclusions, act like an expert and try to pawn it off as fact?

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

That's all very interesting.. What I find as silly is your assumption at thinking you are seeing 'YM signatures' in HFY. How long did you study with YM? When did you meet him again?
It's very possible that what you are seeing as 'YM Signatures' could just very well be 'WC signatures'. Again, where did YM get his WC from anyway? Did he make it all up? For that matter, didn't he have 2 teachers, one in HK and one on the mainland? Wonder what he learned from them...

It might be you are seeing older WCK signatures when you look at YM. See how easliy one can draw silly conclusions, act like an expert and try to pawn it off as fact?


Robert's referring to Yip Man signatures since when we look at older branches of WCK that WE KNOW AND CAN PROVE EXISTED (unlike HFY), we don't see those signatures.

You don't need to meet Yip Man to see the signatures in YMWCK -- all you have to do is look at everyone who studied with Yip to see the commonalities that are unique to Yip.

The luk sao is a good example. All "older" versions of WCK (than Yip Man WCK) don't use the luk sao platform of chi sao. They do the circling hands platform. You first see luk sao in YKS WCK. Because he created it. Sum was there when it happened. We know Yip was good friends with YKS and exchanged with him.

Likewise, older versions of WCK that have the 3 forms, use the outside heun into a lop at the close of the movements. Ng Chung So began doing the internal huen. Yip was his student. We see that movement become a part of Yip's forms.

[JPinAZ]

T,

Why are you even commenting too and quoting a post I wrote, whcih wasn't mean't for you? Are you speaking for Robert again? Shut your yap, you don't know crapp about WC anyway. Isn't there a bench somewhere in the corner you should be sitting on? Or another gathering to avoid?

Wait, why are you repying to my post at all? I thought you wanted nothing to do with HFY? I thought you didn't want to talk with 'us'? You flip flop more than a fish out of water. What happened to all the whining you did so many times "You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone". "WAaaaahhhh, I don't want anything to do with HFY".

Yet here you are, jockin again :rolleyes:

[chusauli]

That's all very interesting.. What I find as silly is your assumption at thinking you are seeing 'YM signatures' in HFY. How long did you study with YM? When did you meet him again?
It's very possible that what you are seeing as 'YM Signatures' could just very well be 'WC signatures'. Again, where did YM get his WC from anyway? Did he make it all up? For that matter, didn't he have 2 teachers, one in HK and one on the mainland? Wonder what he learned from them...

It might be you are seeing older than YM lineage WCK signatures when you look at YM. See how easliy one can draw silly conclusions, act like an expert and try to pawn it off as fact?

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

I prefer using names, that's all.

You can find it all as silly as you want, but having seen many mainland systems and variations, one can see these Yip Man moves as signatures to his WCK. One can easily look at Yuen Kay Shan WCK and see the difference between that and Yip Man WCK. Then you can start comparing and see the difference of Yip Man signatures in other Yip Man derived/influenced arts, for example, Pan Nam's WCK.

I did not study with Yip Man, but studied Yip Man's WCK and the many variations. I can ask all the Yip Man WCK people here, do you agree with these signature moves I listed? And as for YKS, or other WCK (besides HFY), are these Yip Man signatures different from your art?

Jonathan, you can say what you like, but you cannot ignore the Yip Man WCK signatures that set Yip Man's WCK apart from the others. This is all I have brought up to anyone's attention. As for why your art has them, that is something for you to reconcile.

I am not saying anyone made it up, is lying, has a false lineage, etc. I am not attacking your lineage or anyone's lineage or identity, but merely say my piece. If you have an explanation why these signature moves are present in your WCK, perhaps you can share with us.

Best regards,

[t_niehoff]

T,

Why are you even commenting too and quoting a post I wrote, whcih wasn't mean't for you? Are you speaking for Robert again? Shut your yap, you don't know crapp about WC anyway. Isn't there a bench somewhere in the corner you should be sitting on? Or another gathering to avoid?

Wait, why are you repying to my post at all? I thought you wanted nothing to do with HFY? I thought you didn't want to talk with 'us'? You flip flop more than a fish out of water. What happened to all the whining you did so many times "You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone". "WAaaaahhhh, I don't want anything to do with HFY".

Yet here you are, jockin again :rolleyes:

Look, I don't want anything to do with HFY anymore than I want anything to do with Yellow Bamboo or other nonsense. And, I know that nothing anyone says will ever change your mind. If people were sensible and thoughful, they wouldn't fall for Yellow Bamboo or HFY in the first place.

So, I won't talk WCK with you fellows but I will point out fraud and nonsense, and explain how it can be recognized. Not for you, but for some other people who might stumble on these posts laters, perhaps researching HFY before they cough up money to learn it.

The amusing thing about your post to Robert is that you didn't even know what a Yip Man signature was. Asking questions like "when did you meet Yip man?" LOL!

[duende]

No, that's not what I said or the context in which I responded. You said Garrett did chi sao with some peopel and presented that as evidence that he hjad the goods -- and I said that chi sao proved nothing, a retarded chimp could do chi sao.

Chi saso doesn't test anything other than you can perform the movements, techniques, etc. under unrealistic, artificial conditions. BFD. I did chi sao with lots of people at the seminar - Rene, Jeglum, Dzu, Dave, Keith Meyer, even some of Benny's guys. So what?


No Terence, the context was EXACTLY right! You can backtrack now all you want.




What makes Garrett a "WC expert"? He's never fought anyone in his life. Certainly not anyone with decent skills. So how in the world could he develop good WCK skills? By not fighting?


This coming from a theoretical non-fighter internet mouth boxer. Yap yap yap... you're like a annoying poodle that doesn't no when to shut up.




I see, you weren't there at the seminar, I was, yet you know everything that happened there. Dude, the only part of the seminar I didn't participate in was Benny's portion where he "taught" chi sao. And it was only after we were snubbed by Benny and his students and their late night (2 am) lesson with Garrett -- that Dzu, Dave, and I caught them in since we were still at the VTM traning -- that I would no longer play with Benny's students.


Seminar was over. It was Benny's school, and he was the host. And as he was NOT a HFY student at the time, he had every right to invite who ever he like to this late night training session.

Get over it.



I'll take a play from your book and ask why you are being so very emotional? Is it that you are frustrated by not being able to present any evidence that HFY existedprior to Garrett? Or that internally, you can't reconcile the fact that all those Yip Man created developments have found their way into Garrett's "system" which he professes comes unchanged from Shaolin? Or, is it that deep in your heart you know Garrett can't have any real skill since he's never done the right kindof training to develop skill? Or. are you beginning, perhaps even unconsciously, to realize that you've wasted lots of money on learning what is essentially a fraud? I can see why you should be angry.


Terence, if you just wanted to share your opinion here, that would be fine. But after 10 years of ignorant insults an inuendo's.. you bet I have a REAL issue with you. And btw.. no about-face nice guy sideline pm's are gonna change that.

You reap what you sew.



My "kung fu brothers" don't need to help me point out the nonsense that is HFY. And besides, we're not a cultlike HFY -- we don't have a "group mentality" so that if any of us get into a discussion the rest of the "group" chimes in.

No they don't. They are actually training, unlike you who posts more than anyone... talks the most ****.... and pusses out the most when called out.

As for group mentality.... You must be talking about the majority of the people here on KFO who consider you a rambling hypocrite.

[chusauli]

If WCK grew up in the modern era with patent laws, what would a patent attorney have to say about signature moves of Yip Man WCK?

My guess is I would have to pay royalties for Yip Man WCK.

Anyone with any insight in patent law here?

This is for discussion also.

[JPinAZ]

Hello Jonathan,

I prefer using names, that's all.

You can find it all as silly as you want, but having seen many mainland systems and variations, one can see these Yip Man moves as signatures to his WCK. One can easily look at Yuen Kay Shan WCK and see the difference between that and Yip Man WCK. Then you can start comparing and see the difference of Yip Man signatures in other Yip Man derived/influenced arts, for example, Pan Nam's WCK.

I did not study with Yip Man, but studied Yip Man's WCK and the many variations. I can ask all the Yip Man WCK people here, do you agree with these signature moves I listed? And as for YKS, or other WCK (besides HFY), are these Yip Man signatures different from your art?

I agree, YM has movements and some trianing methods that differ from others. That's obvious. And I agree you can see that many other lines have their own too. So we can see the 'different signatures'. Examples as you say: YKS, pan nam, TWC and also HFY. And they also might have some 'movements' or 'moves' as you say that resemble YM - of course, it's all WC! Why would I argue that?
But so what?


Jonathan, you can say what you like, but you cannot ignore the Yip Man WCK signatures that set Yip Man's WCK apart from the others. This is all I have brought up to anyone's attention. As for why your art has them, that is something for you to reconcile.

I am not saying anyone made it up, is lying, has a false lineage, etc. I am not attacking your lineage or anyone's lineage or identity, but merely say my piece. If you have an explanation why these signature moves are present in your WCK, perhaps you can share with us.

Best regards,

What does my art have to do with YM signatures?
And what do I have to reconcile? Are you now implying HFY comes from YM? If not, then what is your point of saying that HFY has 'signatures' that resemble somthing from someone that lived 40 years ago?

Besides, these signatures you listed, I though Alex already adressed them as not being to similar after all! Now you're just looping again! Among the many points he made, one good one was: My point here is that "signatures", should not be based on drills, but instead actual core body mechanics and physical expressions of concepts."
You're talking 'moves' and a fiew drills. big deal. What about concepts, and mechanics. Big difference.

But you're still missing my point. I'll repeat it again - couldn't I say in return that YM WC has movments or signatures or whatever that are actually similar to HFY? Or to TWC, or any of the other non-YM lineages?
Again, what wold be the point unless trying to imply one came from the other. Don't act so inocent by saying you are 'only sharing your peice'

Really, how much HFY do you even know to make any conclusions or comparisons besides some 'moves'? Maybe you should only speak for the WCK you actually do know and not draw silly conclusions based on a few 'moves' and techniques.
FWIW, I studies some Moy Yat/YM before learning HFY, and I see so many differences I couldn't begin to think they come from the same person, at least not anywhere close in history. But then, I'm looking at a lot more than some moves or signatures

Jonathan

PS. Let's not ask 'all the YM people here', 'cause from what I've seen (and this is no slight to anyone), they can't even agree amongst themselves half the time. Too many signatures! :)

[duende]

If WCK grew up in the modern era with patent laws, what would a patent attorney have to say about signature moves of Yip Man WCK?

My guess is I would have to pay royalties for Yip Man WCK.

Anyone with any insight in patent law here?

This is for discussion also.

Be careful what you ask for here Robert... You might end up having to pay royalties to more people than just YM. :D

As for patent laws.. the patent office researches the items in question for years sometimes before approving them. Sometimes, they are never granted due to lack of strong evidence to support the patent request.

[t_niehoff]

No Terence, the context was EXACTLY right! You can backtrack now all you want.


No backtrack at all. Here's my post:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=941628&postcount=178



This coming from a theoretical non-fighter internet mouth boxer. Yap yap yap... you're like a annoying poodle that doesn't no when to shut up.


Still waiting for you to show ONE HFY practtioner existed prior to Garrett.



Seminar was over. It was Benny's school, and he was the host. And as he was NOT a HFY student at the time, he had every right to invite who ever he like to this late night training session.

Get over it.


You're right -he could invite anyone he liked. Just like I could decide not to have anything to do with him or his students after that.



Terence, if you just wanted to share your opinion here, that would be fine. But after 10 years of ignorant insults an inuendo's.. you bet I have a REAL issue with you. And btw.. no about-face nice guy sideline pm's are gonna change that.

You reap what you sew.


I can't help it that you find the truth insulting. And I have no idea what you are talking about iwth "sideline pms" -- I haven't sent you any pms.



No they don't. They are actually training, unlike you who posts more than anyone... talks the most ****.... and pusses out the most when called out.


I don't have the most posts (just offhand, Victor and Nerlich are ahead of me, and I'm sure there are others). And no one's "called me out."

Instead of making up sh1t, why don't you just do something productive -- like prove a single HFY practitioner existed prior to Garrett? Show that I'm wrong. Hendrik believes internal mechanics work but can't show a single person using them in fighting; you claim alineage going back to Shaolinbut can't provide one person who knows HFY prior to Garrett. Instead of b1tching about me, why don't you just get about proving proof that HFY existed prior to Garrett?



As for group mentality.... You must be talking about the majority of the people here on KFO who consider you a rambling hypocrite.

Oh, YOU speak for the majority, do you? Regardless of how people consider me, the fact remains that YOU CAN'T PROVIDE ONE PERSON THAT KNEW HFY PRIOR TO GARRETT. Not a single one. Nor can you explain how all the Yip Man signatures are littered throughout the HFY "system" when it was alleged to have been created hundreds of years before Yip.

So, go on ranting about me. The more you do so, the more it shows that you can't produce good evidence.

[t_niehoff]

I agree, YM has movements and some trianing methods that differ from others. That's obvious. And I agree you can see that many other lines have their own too. So we can see the 'different signatures'. Examples as you say: YKS, pan nam, TWC and also HFY. And they also might have some 'movements' or 'moves' as you say that resemble YM - of course, it's all WC! Why would I argue that?
But so what?


So what? Signatures will tell you whether branches are related, who studied from whom, etc.



What does my art have to do with YM signatures?
And what do I have to reconcile? Are you now implying HFY comes from YM? If not, then what is your point of saying that HFY has 'signatures' that resemble somthing from someone that lived 40 years ago?


It certainly raises the question of how does a branch that claims to comeall the way from Shaolin, and unchanged, have all the numerous signatures of a "system" created in the early to mid-1900s?



Besides, these signatures you listed, I though Alex already adressed them as not being to similar after all! Now you're just looping again! Among the many points he made, one good one was: My point here is that "signatures", should not be based on drills, but instead actual core body mechanics and physical expressions of concepts."
You're talking 'moves' and a fiew drills. big deal. What about concepts, and mechanics. Big difference.


No, you're trying to evade and distract by pointing to something else. Look, Chris Chan does his forms with dynamic tension -- a very different core body mechanic than most other Yip Man people, yet we can still see that Chan's WCK comes from Yip, by the choreography of his forms (which have the Yip signature), by the drills he does, like dan chi sao and that he uses the luk sao platform of chi sao, by his terminolgy ("smallidea", "seeking bridge" forms, baatjaam doh, etc.). It's all there.

People can add concepts or interpret them differently. People can change their body mechanics (there are many different ways of using the body among Yip's students).

When everybody in the WCK world called their first form "siu lien tao" until Yip changed its name, when everybody in the WCK world called their second form "bridge sinking" until Yip cahnged its name, when no one called their knife form baat jaam doh until Yip named it so, until everyone did an outside huen to end the movements in the forms until Ng Chung So (Yip's teacher) changed it, when no one did dan chi sao (tan'strike'bong, fook, jum, punch) until Yip created it, when no one did the luk sao platform of chi sao (tan/bong with high/low fook) until YKS created it and shared it with Yip, and so on and so on . . . when none of this occurred until Yip, and then it all appears in HFY which claims to behundreds of years older than Yip, how doesthat not make you wonder?

And, I can only think of one explanation.



But you're still missing my point. I'll repeat it again - couldn't I say in return that YM WC has movments or signatures or whatever that are actually similar to HFY? Or to TWC, or any of the other non-YM lineages?
Again, what wold be the point unless trying to imply one came from the other. Don't act so inocent by saying you are 'only sharing your peice'


Robert's a nicer guy than me, and I think he'slaying out the evidence and letting peopledraw their own conclusions.



Really, how much HFY do you even know to make any conclusions or comparisons besides some 'moves'? Maybe you should only speak for the WCK you actually do know and not draw silly conclusions based on a few 'moves' and techniques.
FWIW, I studies some Moy Yat/YM before learning HFY, and I see so many differences I couldn't begin to think they come from the same person, at least not anywhere close in history. But then, I'm looking at a lot more than some moves or signatures

Jonathan


There's another dodge. It's not "a few moves and techniques", these are signature things, from terminology to drills to choreography, that were created by Yip or his contemporaries and adopted by Yip.

I don't doubt in the least that HFY is very "different" than Yip Man WCK now. The point is that you can't explain how these Yip signatures got into HFY if you accept that HFY was created prior to these developments.



PS. Let's not ask 'all the YM people here', 'cause from what I've seen (and this is no slight to anyone), they can't even agree amongst themselves half the time. Too many signatures! :)

Once again, you show that you don't know what these "signatures" are. Everyone in YMWCK has the dan chi sao, the luk sao, the inside huen, the baat jaam doh, similar choreography, etc.

[JPinAZ]

All this yapping..
Robert, I'll wait for your reply.

[t_niehoff]

All this yapping..
Robert, I'll wait for your reply.

The facts speak for themselves. Robert can't change the facts. Nor can you.

[chusauli]

Be careful what you ask for here Robert... You might end up having to pay royalties to more people than just YM. :D

As for patent laws.. the patent office researches the items in question for years sometimes before approving them. Sometimes, they are never granted due to lack of strong evidence to support the patent request.

Master Lui might ask for some royalties, too. :D

I'd really like to hear from some attorney...someone who might really know about if signature moves were patented, how would one go about identifying if one were in violation of patent copying?

[anerlich]

If WCK grew up in the modern era with patent laws, what would a patent attorney have to say about signature moves of Yip Man WCK?

My guess is I would have to pay royalties for Yip Man WCK.

Anyone with any insight in patent law here?

This is for discussion also.

I'm sure Rorion would have looked into this sort of thing for Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and implemented it if possible.

He might have had to pay royalties to the Kodokan ... maybe that's why it hasn't happened.

[chusauli]

All this yapping..
Robert, I'll wait for your reply.

Jonathan,

Not much to say. You have your explanations, I have my explanations. Alex and I have already agreed to disagree.

Its pointless. I don't have to point out anything because the more I do, the more it becomes something against your grandteacher and his lineage, or other teachers and their (questionable) lineages. I don't force people to think. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink.

People can draw their own conclusions. You pay your money and take your pick.

You can say from the view I look upon signature moves, they tell a lot about who learned from whom. For example, Augustine Fong has 2 extra kicks in Chum Kiu, and clearly his signature. Ho Kam Ming differentiated his signature in his sets from other Yip Man students. Hung Ga Tang Fung had different signatures from Lam Sai Wing. My Sifu, Yee Chi Wai, has different signatures from other Yuen Ling and Tang Fung lineage students. Hawkins Cheung's Huen Sao is unique and bears his signature. Chinese martial artists have done signature moves like this this for generations and centuries. Insiders know the signatures clearly.

The exercises, moves, terms, etc. I listed are all signatures of Yip Man. I have not listed any incorrectly nor made any up. This is after spending nearly 33 years in WCK. If someone has them in their art, somehow, someway, they are connected to Yip Man, directly or indirectly. How they got there is not for me to decide or accuse someone of lying, falsifying a lineage, making stuff up, making false history...

In the end, it matters not if one practices a false lineage. If the art has benefit, one likes it, it is effective, and balances one out in mind, body and spirit that is enough. It doesn't benefit me to put anyone down or debate.

Zhu Xi said, “Things have their roots and branches. Affairs have their beginnings and their ends.”

Peace,

[chusauli]

I'm sure Rorion would have looked into this sort of thing for Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and implemented it if possible.

He might have had to pay royalties to the Kodokan ... maybe that's why it hasn't happened.

LOL! Quite true! Quite true!

Its only modern day Kodokan which emphasizes Olympic competition and deemphasizes Katame Waza in which there is a difference.

[JPinAZ]

Robert,

I think I have been giving you too much respect. It has been well known to MA community you have been discharged by both Lee Moy Shan and Moy Yat. I don't really care the reasons, all I can see that WC background seems limited and very shady. How long did you even learn from these sifu again?

At the same time, I have seen you on video tape and you speak very outragiously. You critisize many people and lineages and have a c@cky personality. You have said William Cheung made up twc. You said he is a criminal. Even in your last post you speak of "other teachers and their (questionable) lineages". Point is, who are you to deserve an audience in the WC community?
You have a lot of opinions of a lot of people and a lot of things but you have never looked at youreself in the mirror. All you do is talk sh!t. You even attack and try to discredit chan wah shun. But where is your proof in any of it? Funny thing, instead, you go along with crazy Hendrik and say Emei is WC! Can you say you see WC signature in hendrick's Emei White Crane whatever too?

You've also said HFY has YM signature. Wow, big suprise there, They are both WC! Suprising that WC looks like WC! YM is WC. TWC is WC. HFY is WC! Because WC is WC! They all are going to share similar signatures, that makes sense! Is that supposed to be a big suprise?

But you don't really know sh!t about HFY and you don't really know sh!t about TWC. Sounds like you don't reall know sh!t! But you can critisize and judge very easily. Who are you to talk about any of these systems? Curious, does Emei have WC signature too? You might say yes. It's obvious Hendrik is your buddy and you share the same similar agenda. You act like an authority saying this and that about all WC. That is a joke. You should look in the mirror first before you do that, you are not qualified to speak about anything.

I'm done with you

[duende]

Its pointless. I don't have to point out anything because the more I do, the more it becomes something against your grandteacher and his lineage, or other teachers and their (questionable) lineages. I don't force people to think. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink.

People can draw their own conclusions. You pay your money and take your pick.

You can say from the view I look upon signature moves, they tell a lot about who learned from whom. For example, Augustine Fong has 2 extra kicks in Chum Kiu, and clearly his signature. Ho Kam Ming differentiated his signature in his sets from other Yip Man students. Hung Ga Tang Fung had different signatures from Lam Sai Wing. My Sifu, Yee Chi Wai, has different signatures from other Yuen Ling and Tang Fung lineage students. Hawkins Cheung's Huen Sao is unique and bears his signature. Chinese martial artists have done signature moves like this this for generations and centuries. Insiders know the signatures clearly.

The exercises, moves, terms, etc. I listed are all signatures of Yip Man. I have not listed any incorrectly nor made any up. This is after spending nearly 33 years in WCK. If someone has them in their art, somehow, someway, they are connected to Yip Man, directly or indirectly. How they got there is not for me to decide or accuse someone of lying, falsifying a lineage, making stuff up, making false history...


Robert,

Just two post ago, you described yourself as a non-linear thinker. But look what you have written. It is nothing but linear thinking, although highly subjective..


Main Entry: linear thinking
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a process of thought following known cycles or step-by-step progression where a response to a step must be elicited before another step is taken

Here' another definition...

To continue to look at something from one point of view. To take information or observations from one situation, place this data in another situation (usually later), and make a conclusion in the later situation.


Your research is solely based on connections that you have drawn and seeked out to meet your working hypothesis or in this case an agenda.

On top of that, these "signatures" are highly biased due to them not only being chosen by you, but by the fact that they are only measured by YOUR own subjective criteria.

If that isn't enough, now you are trying to further influence any objective sense of the argument by referencing your 33 years of studying WC. One should not have to do that to prove their point.

Anyways... I'm sorry to tell you, but this is not true objective research. Nor is it lateral, or non-linear thinking by any means.

So in essence, this premise is flawed because it does not take into account what CWS taught to YM. It does not take into account what Lueng Bik taught to YM. And it does not take into account what YM learned outside of WC. How could it when none of this information is truly available at this point. AND.... it does not take into account what was taught in WC besides the branch of WC YM learned. Thereby denying the very real unknown quantity present in WC history.

So while I can appreciate your research in regards to the YM family. When someone tells you that they do not come from YM. You might want to look beyond your own inclinations.



about all this HFY/TWC connection...

What's truly sad is that all these's inuendo's about HFY copying TWC, or TWC copying HFY only shows that due to the limitations of subjective reasoning... this is the only answer that is available to you.

Another words, you can't see the possibility of there being an actual connection without it being stolen. How does that reflect upon you?


As for KF insiders...

Does this mean that your father, and your father's father studied martial arts? Can you track your martial arts family history back generations?

Because an insider most certainly can.



For the record, I do appreciate your taking the time to be more considerate and peaceful in regards to these sensitive issues. And I hope my actions and posts reflect the same. I do not mean insults by my words here. Only to show, how there are many of us who also question things. And that just because we all don't agree with each other does not mean that some of us follow blindly without using critical thinking.


regards,

Alex


PS. I think people should spend more time thinking about how Leung Jan could teach 4 different variations of WC. There's where the answers are to many questions if you ask me.

Imo... it would stop a hell of a lot of this online arguing.

[Wayfaring]

You can say from the view I look upon signature moves, they tell a lot about who learned from whom. For example, Augustine Fong has 2 extra kicks in Chum Kiu, and clearly his signature. Ho Kam Ming differentiated his signature in his sets from other Yip Man students. Hung Ga Tang Fung had different signatures from Lam Sai Wing. My Sifu, Yee Chi Wai, has different signatures from other Yuen Ling and Tang Fung lineage students. Hawkins Cheung's Huen Sao is unique and bears his signature. Chinese martial artists have done signature moves like this this for generations and centuries. Insiders know the signatures clearly.

The exercises, moves, terms, etc. I listed are all signatures of Yip Man. I have not listed any incorrectly nor made any up. This is after spending nearly 33 years in WCK. If someone has them in their art, somehow, someway, they are connected to Yip Man, directly or indirectly. How they got there is not for me to decide or accuse someone of lying, falsifying a lineage, making stuff up, making false history...


Robert,

One thing I'm curious about - I posted a while back about the differences I perceived in Moy Yat based chi sau and the HFY chi sau platform including kiu sau, chi kiu, chi sau while training both through a transitionary period.

With 33 yrs of WCK do you have a perspective on that? I'm asking because I think you specifically were calling luk sau a Yip Man signature and either you or Terence said sifu Gee was doing luk sau chi sau at a seminar. I do know he has chi sau rolled hands with people conforming to their training platforms in chi sau but that doesn't mean that's how he teaches it.

I'm not into all the other heated debate stuff.

[Wayfaring]

I'm sure Rorion would have looked into this sort of thing for Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and implemented it if possible.

He might have had to pay royalties to the Kodokan ... maybe that's why it hasn't happened.

Actually - interesting story - I was at a Rigan Machado seminar when he was talking about some of that - someone was asking him what the difference between Machado JJ and Gracie JJ was, and he was telling the story about how all of them were teaching Gracie JJ until his cousin sued him for copyright infringement.

[Hendrik]

Robert,

I think I have been giving you too much respect. It has been well known to MA community you have been discharged by both Lee Moy Shan and Moy Yat. I don't really care the reasons, all I can see that WC background seems limited and very shady. How long did you even learn from these sifu again?

At the same time, I have seen you on video tape and you speak very outragiously. You critisize many people and lineages and have a c@cky personality. You have said William Cheung made up twc. You said he is a criminal. Even in your last post you speak of "other teachers and their (questionable) lineages". Point is, who are you to deserve an audience in the WC community?
You have a lot of opinions of a lot of people and a lot of things but you have never looked at youreself in the mirror. All you do is talk sh!t. You even attack and try to discredit chan wah shun. But where is your proof in any of it? Funny thing, instead, you go along with crazy Hendrik and say Emei is WC! Can you say you see WC signature in hendrick's Emei White Crane whatever too?

You've also said HFY has YM signature. Wow, big suprise there, They are both WC! Suprising that WC looks like WC! YM is WC. TWC is WC. HFY is WC! Because WC is WC! They all are going to share similar signatures, that makes sense! Is that supposed to be a big suprise?

But you don't really know sh!t about HFY and you don't really know sh!t about TWC. Sounds like you don't reall know sh!t! But you can critisize and judge very easily. Who are you to talk about any of these systems? Curious, does Emei have WC signature too? You might say yes. It's obvious Hendrik is your buddy and you share the same similar agenda.

You act like an authority saying this and that about all WC. That is a joke. You should look in the mirror first before you do that, you are not qualified to speak about anything.

I'm done with you




What is the reason you attacking me and my lineage When I have nothing to do with your discussion?

[Ned]

Hey Robert, I’ve seen your post on signatures day in and day out. It interesting you bring up Wing Chun signatures because I’ve seen you in a video moving you’re a$s up and down doing SLT. Is that the Wing Chun signature you were talking about? We saw you on the video learning Chi Sim from Andreas Hoffman, there is no denying it. Didn’t you say CS was not WC? In your behavior you spread a lot of rumor about others but take from them. According to yourself:

In the end, it matters not if one practices a false lineage. If the art has benefit, one likes it, it is effective, and balances one out in mind, body and spirit that is enough. It doesn't benefit me to put anyone down or debate.


So I see that moving your a$s up and down is your WC signature that has some benefit to your mind, body and spirit? That explains a lot. I’m not going to debate you on that or put you down, it’s your signature. It’s your linking a$s up and down SLT WC signature.
Robert its best that you stick to your WC signature because of your limited WC background. Your 33 years of behavior has not changed much from Lee Moy Shan (burn bridge), Moy Yat(burn bridge), and William Cheung(spread rumors) to now. How has that changed from back in the day when you had to be told at a William Cheung seminar that it was his workshop and not a RC seminar. Why do you have to be told you are not the center of attention? Do you see the problem? It's your a$s signature. The same WC a$s signiture your showing here. Your so dam c*cky on the internet and in private but on the other side of you a$s you say

It doesn't benefit me to put anyone down or debate.

You have too much opinion; your background is limited and shaky. In reality you do not know much. You are not a person to talk about technical information just stick with what you know: your arrogant up and down a$s signature.

[LSWCTN1]

Just wanted to chime in here,

I don’t know HFY, nor have I even ever seen it. However, the arguments that Robert Chu seems to be making kind of make sense in relation to their history.

Although, the reason I have decided to post is in relation to the comment made about Mark Hobbs and his Lun Gai/Yip Man wing chun. ..

Mark Hobbs is very local to me, in fact he is in the next town along. When my father started to struggle with the amount of training that I wanted to undertake (through outside commitments, and health) I looked around at local instructors – and Mark Hobbs seemed the only decent SiFu within a realistic distance. Because of this I looked a little into his background – and it seems that SiFu Hobbs has no qualms about the material taught by Hung Fa Yi. In fact in one article I read it was stated that he asked to become a student of Garrett Gee

This isn’t the article, as I cant find it now – but it does make reference to learning a little HFY http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/hobbsarticle.html

Anyway, In the end I chose not to train with him. I travel for 2 hours an evening to train elsewhere – but I am lead to understand that Mark Hobbs level is relatively high, so Garrett Gee must have something to offer.


also...



Hey Robert, I’ve seen your post on signatures day in and day out. It interesting you bring up Wing Chun signatures because I’ve seen you in a video moving you’re a$s up and down doing SLT. Is that the Wing Chun signature you were talking about? We saw you on the video learning Chi Sim from Andreas Hoffman, there is no denying it. Didn’t you say CS was not WC? In your behavior you spread a lot of rumor about others but take from them. According to yourself:




AFAIK Chi Sim comes from the same sources as some wck - Fung Siu Ching

i asked a question on some earlier threads about people changing their snt for their own private training - many said that they did. CS contains a lot of movement in their Sam Pai Fut form as far as i can make out. incorporating the sinking/rising aspect of wck into your form doesnt have to be detrimental at all

i havent seen the video you speak of, and as such I make my comment based on your analogy of it

i dont neccessarily think that the movement you describe is incorrect if you are practising the form once you have mastered the stationary, square element that snt teaches. IMHO.

[t_niehoff]

I find the attempts at character assassination typical, ineffective, and revealing.

Evidence is presented that there are all these numerous Yip Man signatures (created or adopted by Yip) that are in HFY which claims to be much, much older than Yip Man WCK and unchanged since its origin. And, we have the fact that no one can find a single HFY practioner who existed prior to Garrett. This points to one inescapable conclusion.

What is the response from the HFY GROUP? To distract, evade, change the subject, then when that doesn't work, try to change the subject to character. All this shows is that they are bankrupt of legitimate evidence to support their view. They can't explain how signatures (terminology, drills, choreography, etc.) from the early to mid 1900s are in an allegedly older branch of WCK and they can't produce anyone who practices HFY that predates Garrett. So what are they left with?

[CFT]

Summarizing the argument re: signatures.

1) Yip Man WCK has certain signatures which are not shared by other mainland WCK families.

2) The assertion is that HFYWCK comes from YMWCK because it appears to share some of these signatures. Similarly for William Cheung's TWC.

3) They don't share these signatures because WCK is WCK, otherwise we would also see them in other non-YM lineages.

One can disagree about the significance of these signatures. One can even turn the argument around: that YMWCK came from HFYWCK, which has already been suggested on this thread. But that again brings up the th0rny issue of verifiable lineage.

[duende]

I find the attempts at character assassination typical, ineffective, and revealing.

Well you should know. These have been your tactics all along. After all your insults, I'm surprised my brother's waited this long to feed you your own medicine.




Evidence is presented that there are all these numerous Yip Man signatures (created or adopted by Yip) that are in HFY which claims to be much, much older than Yip Man WCK and unchanged since its origin. And, we have the fact that no one can find a single HFY practioner who existed prior to Garrett. This points to one inescapable conclusion.

Signatures based on faulty logic and subjective criteria. With absolutely no written or historical proof, no nothing to prove that they are anything more than notions made-up from Robert.

What kind of CHI SAU did CWS teach YM if he didn't teach tan, bong, fook chi sau??

You don't know, so how can you know what he didn't teach!

As for older HFY practioner's?? Read our history Jacka$$, the reasons are self-explanatory!

Besides, HFY is not on trial. Especially from a WC nobody poser like you.




They can't explain how signatures (terminology, drills, choreography, etc.) from the early to mid 1900s are in an allegedly older branch of WCK and they can't produce anyone who practices HFY that predates Garrett. So what are they left with?

These so called terms you referred to, come from our Ngh Jahn Chiuh Mihn Jeui Yihng (Five Battle Formation Facing Chasing Posture)

The same grouping of terms that Robert used to base a WC article on so long ago.

But go ahead and back track on that one too.

You are in no position to talk sh!t about anyone.

Terence Nieoff is the KFO king of the backtrack, the ultimate *****.

Everything you write, say is complete hypocrisy, because all you do is talk and talk and NEVER walk!!

Everyone here knows it.


So if you want to talk about signatures. THIS is yours!! You've earned it!


TERENCE NIEOFF
OFFICIAL WING CHUN BENCH WARMER

[duende]

Summarizing the argument re: signatures.

1) Yip Man WCK has certain signatures which are not shared by other mainland WCK families.

2) The assertion is that HFYWCK comes from YMWCK because it appears to share some of these signatures. Similarly for William Cheung's TWC.

3) They don't share these signatures because WCK is WCK, otherwise we would also see them in other non-YM lineages.

One can disagree about the significance of these signatures. One can even turn the argument around: that YMWCK came from HFYWCK, which has already been suggested on this thread. But that again brings up the th0rny issue of verifiable lineage.

Thank you CFT. Finally some sense here. These signatures are NON-CONCLUSIVE. Why?? Because they have no legitimate place in history supported by facts and evidence.

Besides who really cares???

Only people who have an egotistical need to make everything to fit in their own skewed version of the world.

[JPinAZ]

I don’t know HFY, nor have I even ever seen it. However, the arguments that Robert Chu seems to be making kind of make sense in relation to their history.

Although, the reason I have decided to post is in relation to the comment made about Mark Hobbs and his Lun Gai/Yip Man wing chun. ..

Mark Hobbs is very local to me, in fact he is in the next town along. When my father started to struggle with the amount of training that I wanted to undertake (through outside commitments, and health) I looked around at local instructors – and Mark Hobbs seemed the only decent SiFu within a realistic distance. Because of this I looked a little into his background – and it seems that SiFu Hobbs has no qualms about the material taught by Hung Fa Yi. In fact in one article I read it was stated that he asked to become a student of Garrett Gee

This isn’t the article, as I cant find it now – but it does make reference to learning a little HFY http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/hobbsarticle.html

Anyway, In the end I chose not to train with him. I travel for 2 hours an evening to train elsewhere – but I am lead to understand that Mark Hobbs level is relatively high, so Garrett Gee must have something to offer.


Hi,

I was there in London when Sifu Mark and GM Gee met, and yes, Mark did ask to be a student of Gm Gee. For whatever reasons, it just didn't work out, that's between them.
I had also met Mark previously when he made the long trip out to the Arizona school with a friend to train. In both cases, he seemed like a knowledgable guy, and it seemed he thought HFY was worth going after.

For the other assumptions here about HFY being this or that, that's all they are - assumptions from outsiders that don't really know what they are talking about. HFY is there for those that are interested, if not, maybe they should just let go their attachments.

Thanks for the input!

Jonathan

[CFT]

What kind of CHI SAU did CWS teach YM if he didn't teach tan, bong, fook chi sau??The circling hands platform (seung huen sao?). I think you can still see this in YKS WCK, Gulao/Kulo WCK.

[t_niehoff]

Signatures based on faulty logic and subjective criteria. With absolutely no written or historical proof, no nothing to prove that they are anything more than notions made-up from Robert.


You are completely wrong. Signatures aren't subjective and they're not "faulty logic". Both Robert and I have given lists of some of these signatures. These things aren't in writing, they are in the currcilums of the various branches. Yip Man changed the name of the first form to siu NIM tao (small idea) -- there is no other proven lienage older than Yip that was calling their first form SNT. Same tih "bridge seeking". Same with baat jaam doh. No other lineage was doing dan chi sao. No other lineage, besides YKS who created it and where Yip took it from, was doing the luk sao platform of chi sao. And so on.



What kind of CHI SAU did CWS teach YM if he didn't teach tan, bong, fook chi sau??


The same platform that Leung Jan taught CWS and that Leung Jan taught in gu Lao -- the circling hands platform (which, btw, SN WCK also kept). All the older branches of WCK used that platform.



Besides, HFY is not on trial. Especially from a WC nobody poser like you.


Here you go again with personal insults. I understand, and I think most people do too -- that's the only answer you have.



These so called terms you referred to, come from our Ngh Jahn Chiuh Mihn Jeui Yihng (Five Battle Formation Facing Chasing Posture)


Of course Garrett has things BESIDES those Yip Man signatures -- that is irrelevent to whetehr or not he has those signatures and how he got them.



You are in no position to talk sh!t about anyone.

Terence Nieoff is the KFO king of the backtrack, the ultimate *****.

Everything you write, say is complete hypocrisy, because all you do is talk and talk and NEVER walk!!

Everyone here knows it.


You can keep calling me names but that doesn't change the fact that these Yip signatures are in HFY and that you can't produce a single HFY practitioner that prredates Garrett.

[t_niehoff]

Thank you CFT. Finally some sense here. These signatures are NON-CONCLUSIVE. Why?? Because they have no legitimate place in history supported by facts and evidence.


Firstly, yes, Chee makes sense but your statment that "these signatures are non-conclusive" isn't what Chee said.

Secondly, they do have a leginimate place in WCK history because they are MARKERS of development in various WCK curriculum. They show that various people added, changed, etc. what came before them. In other words, they are new technologies in a sense. For example, weknow YKS created the luk sao platform of chi sao because no proven comtemporary lineage was using that platform and only people afterwards began using it, starting with Yip (who was good friends with YKS). Same with the dan chi sao. Yip created that. No one else in the WCK world was doing that particular drill since it didn't exist. All anyone needs to do is look at the the PROVEN branches of WCK (with genuine people that can be proved to have lived and practiced WCK) and you can see them as plain as day.

Thirdly, I am glad to see that you have at least implicitly admitted "signatures" do exist. Maybe you should explain them to your "brothers."



Besides who really cares???


Apparently you do and other HFY people do because your group is aruing that they don't exist, if they do exist they don't prove anything, who really cares what they do say, etc.

What the signatures prove is that HFY hasn't gone unchanged for hundreds of years, that it has at the very least adopted new technology from the early to mid 1900s, particularly Yip Man signatures. Is this historically significant?



Only people who have an egotistical need to make everything to fit in their own skewed version of the world.

It's ironic coming from a group that promotes itself in writing (book and articles) as the original WCK and that everyone else's history is wrong.

[t_niehoff]

PS. I think people should spend more time thinking about how Leung Jan could teach 4 different variations of WC. There's where the answers are to many questions if you ask me.


What 4 variations? LJ taught in Foshan and in Gu Lao village, and he used 2 different curriculums but it was the same WCK.

[chusauli]

Summarizing the argument re: signatures.

1) Yip Man WCK has certain signatures which are not shared by other mainland WCK families.

2) The assertion is that HFYWCK comes from YMWCK because it appears to share some of these signatures. Similarly for William Cheung's TWC.

3) They don't share these signatures because WCK is WCK, otherwise we would also see them in other non-YM lineages.

One can disagree about the significance of these signatures. One can even turn the argument around: that YMWCK came from HFYWCK, which has already been suggested on this thread. But that again brings up the th0rny issue of verifiable lineage.


Thank you Chee,

You're very clear.

By not having a verifiable history, that is a major issue. One could speculate that HFY is made up. If the history is verifiable, then possibly we could entertain Yip Man studied HFY, and that would explain TWC. If there were more information, we could change our perspective.

Based on the information we have now, we can see the Yip Man signatures show a trademark in his sets. These trademarks are not in all WCK.

Thanks for your perspective.

[t_niehoff]

Thank you Chee,

You're very clear.

By not having a verifiable history, that is a major issue. One could speculate that HFY is made up. If the history is verifiable, then possibly we could entertain Yip Man studied HFY, and that would explain TWC. If there were more information, we could change our perspective.

Based on the information we have now, we can see the Yip Man signatures show a trademark in his sets. These trademarks are not in all WCK.

Thanks for your perspective.

There are numerous problems with the Yip-must-have-known-HFY theory.

The first is that there is no independently verifiable evidence that HFY existed prior to Garrett. No one can produce a single HFY practitioner that pre-dates Garrett. And consider that HFY is alleged to have been in the Triads and training an army in HFY to overthrow the Qing. Yet we can't find anyone who knew HFY or even heard of HFY. Even though with PFLWCK there were only a handful of pracitioners at any one time it was well-known in WCK circles. So unless you can show that HFY existed prior to Yip, you can't legimately argue that Yip got his signatures from HFY.

Another problem is that some of the Yip signatures weren't created or developed by Yip but adopted by Yip from others (the luk sao from YKS, the inside huen from Ng Chung So, etc.). So unless they all knew HFY too . . . . And that wouldn't make much sense either sense if everyone knew HFY, then it wouldn't be a secret, and you'd have all kinds of people recognizing/practiting it.

[CFT]

Based on the information we have now, we can see the Yip Man signatures show a trademark in his sets. These trademarks are not in all WCK.Thank you Robert. I thought that after so many posts we needed a short summary, but I think your summary is even more to the point.

Like you have said, why be so attached? It is all still WCK right? If people enjoy what they are doing then that is great. History, politics, etc. just muddies the water and really doesn't do anyone any favours. What matters is the here and now.

[chusauli]

Robert,

Just two post ago, you described yourself as a non-linear thinker. But look what you have written. It is nothing but linear thinking, although highly subjective..


Main Entry: linear thinking
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a process of thought following known cycles or step-by-step progression where a response to a step must be elicited before another step is taken

Here' another definition...

To continue to look at something from one point of view. To take information or observations from one situation, place this data in another situation (usually later), and make a conclusion in the later situation.


Your research is solely based on connections that you have drawn and seeked out to meet your working hypothesis or in this case an agenda.

On top of that, these "signatures" are highly biased due to them not only being chosen by you, but by the fact that they are only measured by YOUR own subjective criteria.

If that isn't enough, now you are trying to further influence any objective sense of the argument by referencing your 33 years of studying WC. One should not have to do that to prove their point.

Anyways... I'm sorry to tell you, but this is not true objective research. Nor is it lateral, or non-linear thinking by any means.

So in essence, this premise is flawed because it does not take into account what CWS taught to YM. It does not take into account what Lueng Bik taught to YM. And it does not take into account what YM learned outside of WC. How could it when none of this information is truly available at this point. AND.... it does not take into account what was taught in WC besides the branch of WC YM learned. Thereby denying the very real unknown quantity present in WC history.

So while I can appreciate your research in regards to the YM family. When someone tells you that they do not come from YM. You might want to look beyond your own inclinations.



about all this HFY/TWC connection...

What's truly sad is that all these's inuendo's about HFY copying TWC, or TWC copying HFY only shows that due to the limitations of subjective reasoning... this is the only answer that is available to you.

Another words, you can't see the possibility of there being an actual connection without it being stolen. How does that reflect upon you?


As for KF insiders...

Does this mean that your father, and your father's father studied martial arts? Can you track your martial arts family history back generations?

Because an insider most certainly can.



For the record, I do appreciate your taking the time to be more considerate and peaceful in regards to these sensitive issues. And I hope my actions and posts reflect the same. I do not mean insults by my words here. Only to show, how there are many of us who also question things. And that just because we all don't agree with each other does not mean that some of us follow blindly without using critical thinking.


regards,

Alex


PS. I think people should spend more time thinking about how Leung Jan could teach 4 different variations of WC. There's where the answers are to many questions if you ask me.

Imo... it would stop a hell of a lot of this online arguing.


Thank you for your kind words Alex.

Since we are having a discussion, this point of the discussion has not been resolved for me. At any rate, this is not a Yip Man WCK vs. HFY WCK issue. It also includes those lineages not in Yip Man lineage which have Yip Man signatures. Also if any other non-Yip Man WCK could step up and discuss with us if they agree about Yip Man signatures?

My only thing is that you do not seem to know the strong importance and implications of martial arts signatures. This is a very important piece of information that we should not lightly sidestep.

Can you say for certain Yip Man studied HFY? Can you say for certain where is the verifiable lineage of HFY? TWC only draws from Yip Man.

Tell me more of why you think HFY older? Especially when we have seen these Yip Man signatures throughout it? Is there some logical explanation that we are all ignorant of? If you can share that with all of us, you will see, I will state, "Based on the information I have today, this is what I think. But with this new information, I think..." Its not hard. Truth should come out. It has nothing to do with attachment, emotions, love, secrets, etc.

Old WCK looks like Yun Kay Shan and other Futshan systems. We can see Yik Kam WCK in China, we can also see Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang...and these were secretive systems.

BTW, to my knowledge, Leung Jan only taught 2 variations of curriculum, but essentially the same WCK.

Also, the story of Leung Bik is quite suspect, but we do know definitely that Yip Man learned briefly with Chan Wah Shun, and then mainly with Ng Jung So.

I do think you do not follow blindly and you do show you have critical thinking, unlike some of your HFY bretheren. There is nothing to argue for. We're having a nice chat here.

For Jonathan and Ned, "Unga, bunga, bunga!" Good soldiers! You show your loyalty and allegiance to your system. But this is a discussion, people. Stick with the issues.

Best regards,

[t_niehoff]

Chee, I pointed out the same things a short time ago with regard to Buddha Fist WCK -- that it had Yip signatures all over it, and was clearly a Yip-derived WCK. Similarly, we can't find a single Buddha Hand practitioner that predates Henry Leung. It was discussed how Buddha Hand is "different" from Yip Man WCK but that those could easily have been part of Leung's interpretation. Interesting parallel.

And, at that time, I conceded that history doesn't matter with regard to skill development.

But, I think that keeping the bullsh1t separate from history is important if we are concerned with what is and is not historically accurate.

[chusauli]

Robert,

I think I have been giving you too much respect. It has been well known to MA community you have been discharged by both Lee Moy Shan and Moy Yat. I don't really care the reasons, all I can see that WC background seems limited and very shady. How long did you even learn from these sifu again?

At the same time, I have seen you on video tape and you speak very outragiously. You critisize many people and lineages and have a c@cky personality. You have said William Cheung made up twc. You said he is a criminal. Even in your last post you speak of "other teachers and their (questionable) lineages". Point is, who are you to deserve an audience in the WC community?
You have a lot of opinions of a lot of people and a lot of things but you have never looked at youreself in the mirror. All you do is talk sh!t. You even attack and try to discredit chan wah shun. But where is your proof in any of it? Funny thing, instead, you go along with crazy Hendrik and say Emei is WC! Can you say you see WC signature in hendrick's Emei White Crane whatever too?

You've also said HFY has YM signature. Wow, big suprise there, They are both WC! Suprising that WC looks like WC! YM is WC. TWC is WC. HFY is WC! Because WC is WC! They all are going to share similar signatures, that makes sense! Is that supposed to be a big suprise?

But you don't really know sh!t about HFY and you don't really know sh!t about TWC. Sounds like you don't reall know sh!t! But you can critisize and judge very easily. Who are you to talk about any of these systems? Curious, does Emei have WC signature too? You might say yes. It's obvious Hendrik is your buddy and you share the same similar agenda. You act like an authority saying this and that about all WC. That is a joke. You should look in the mirror first before you do that, you are not qualified to speak about anything.

I'm done with you

Jonathan,

We were supposed to be having a rational discussion here. It is quite clear that you do not know how to engage in rational discussion and that you bring up a lot of emotional nonsense here. The spelling and grammatical errors show that you typed this in a fit of anger.

I think perhaps it might be good to get some counseling with this anger of yours. And this language is uncalled for.

Is this balanced martial arts training? Is this an example of harmonizing your true identity?

Jonathan, I really think you should think a bit more. Have I not been a gentleman all of this time? I have not said anything derogatory to you, and have been utmost polite. For you to get a lessons in manners from a turd like me, is shameful.

Best regards,

[chusauli]

Hey Robert, I’ve seen your post on signatures day in and day out. It interesting you bring up Wing Chun signatures because I’ve seen you in a video moving you’re a$s up and down doing SLT. Is that the Wing Chun signature you were talking about? We saw you on the video learning Chi Sim from Andreas Hoffman, there is no denying it. Didn’t you say CS was not WC? In your behavior you spread a lot of rumor about others but take from them. According to yourself:


So I see that moving your a$s up and down is your WC signature that has some benefit to your mind, body and spirit? That explains a lot. I’m not going to debate you on that or put you down, it’s your signature. It’s your linking a$s up and down SLT WC signature.
Robert its best that you stick to your WC signature because of your limited WC background. Your 33 years of behavior has not changed much from Lee Moy Shan (burn bridge), Moy Yat(burn bridge), and William Cheung(spread rumors) to now. How has that changed from back in the day when you had to be told at a William Cheung seminar that it was his workshop and not a RC seminar. Why do you have to be told you are not the center of attention? Do you see the problem? It's your a$s signature. The same WC a$s signiture your showing here. Your so dam c*cky on the internet and in private but on the other side of you a$s you say

You have too much opinion; your background is limited and shaky. In reality you do not know much. You are not a person to talk about technical information just stick with what you know: your arrogant up and down a$s signature.

Ned,

Thank you for your opinion(s). What were you saying about too much opinion?

According to my friend Andreas Hoffman, Chi Sim is Weng Chun, not Wing Chun.

This discussion is supposed to be a civil one, and I must let you know that your emotional outburst is poor and shows a lack of character development. Your criticisms of me have no relevance to this discussion.

If you have such poor manners and language and do not have the control to conduct yourself properly, it is best that you do not engage in any further discussion. Perhaps some counseling would be best for that anger of yours. Anger is a poor excuse for your lack of courtesy.

And I must admit, getting lessons in manners from a terrible person like me must be the ultimate shame.

Unga, bunga, bunga! :)

[chusauli]

Thank you Robert. I thought that after so many posts we needed a short summary, but I think your summary is even more to the point.

Like you have said, why be so attached? It is all still WCK right? If people enjoy what they are doing then that is great. History, politics, etc. just muddies the water and really doesn't do anyone any favours. What matters is the here and now.

Thank you Chee!

Exactly! For an art that proposes to have authentic Chan roots, its quite ironic to have all these attachments.

All martial arts are created by human beings. Verifiable lineage or not, if one enjoys what they do it is fine. And history doesn't affect the effectiveness of martial arts, only realistic practice does. We're not made out of a story or his-story. We are made of Now.

An interesting parallel is Ba Gua Quan. Ba Gua is not that old and only a few generations. I have studied two lineages of Gong Bao Tian's Ba Gua Quan and cannot reconcile the two at all. It seems they are of totally different origin even though they come from the same source. But no one gets mad - the art is based on the Yi Jing (Book of Changes) - so change is the norm.

Ah, a pity of WCK...

[JPinAZ]

Bob,

There is nothing you can teach me, so don't try. Maybe you should scold T instead - doesn't ettiquite start at home? And really, does my saying sh!t offend you that much? I would think you are a bit tougher than that. :confused:
All I am doing is talking facts, no assumptions or emotion here. I noticed you couldn't address any of the facts. If you don't like the facts, you should spend some time looking in the mirror.

Ned brings up a good point about the Chi Sim 'signatures' in your SLT. Since you like to talk about signatures, that video is proof you have the a$$ signature you took from Chi Sim. You are mixing Weng Chun signatures with your Wing chun. It goes to show how limited your WC knowledge is if you have take from everyone else. Yet you pawn yourself off as an authority. :rolleyes:

Speaking of videos, you know the other one I mentioned in my last post? Besides the usual personal insults and disrespect to other WC sifu, it also shows Benny handling all your of students in Chi Sau. I also noticed you wouldn't touch hands with Benny on the video. Then you said all your students should be shot. Just another sign you're WC knowledge is shaky. Maybe you should have T shot too, since he's another one of your students and he can't even fight with WC :rolleyes:
And, as per your usual behavior, at the end of the video you try to discredit and correct Benny about having no forward energy. Didn't look like he had any problems with his WC to me. You have followed this by saying you tossed Benny around in a hotel room, privately of course. Again, more attempts to discredit other WC people. See the pattern? And why didn't you toss him around in the video where others could see? Maybe because of your shaky WC background...

As far as this joke of a discussion, I have trained YM WC, and HFY WC extensively. Many other HFY members were long time practitioners of YM WC, among other lineages. I don't see these 'signatures' as you see them, except that they are both WC (DUH!). And they don't see the similarities you do either. This is from people who have strong, inside knowledge of BOTH systems. Not your hodge-podge mish-mash outsider viewpoint of WC. So why should we listen to you? What does your opinion on subject you know nothing about really matter?
The systems, training methods, and application of concepts and principals are so different it is laughable to hear you speak on them like you do. Having this discussion with you is a joke. Any connections you make is based on speculation and guessing. You have 33 years experince yet you're still looking from the outside.

Just the facts.

[duende]

Maybe you should scold T instead - doesn't ettiquite start at home?

He's got a point there Robert. ALL this negative energy could have been avoided if Terence controlled his mouth and didn't resort to insults.

If anyone needs to be coached on discipline and respect, it is your student Terence. His words are by far the most disrespectful and insulting of anyone's here. As well as being full of outright lies.

[duende]

What 4 variations? LJ taught in Foshan and in Gu Lao village, and he used 2 different curriculums but it was the same WCK.

Another history lesson for Terence...

The 4 systems he taught were:

Pin Sun (side body)
Jin Sun (forward body)
Traditional (Lueng Bik)
Modified (CWS)


Btw... you keep on asking for a HFY practitioner before my Sifu. If you took the time to actually research before you made accusations you know that my Sifu's Sije Ms. Lung actually came to visit SF. awhile back. She is an artist, and my Sifu met with her, Lilly Lau (SF Eagle Claw Master), and Dr. Wu Mo (a China town antique art dealer in SF)

The whole event was shared on HFY108.

As for YM signatures.... these are WC signatures. So sorry for you that you can't see that WC is much more than some stupid drills. Chi Sau is not about one hand, two hand, or crossing hand drills. It is about engagement. Doesn't matter how you do it, but how you survive!

Do the math! Why do you think YM changed so much of his teaching when he moved to HK? What event caused him to do this???

It is also documented, that YM went back to China and defeated all of his former Sidai's and Sihing's under CWS. And this caused quite an uproar and rift with them too. Why?? Think about it!

And after being defeated, they accused him of combing their CWS version of WC with other TCMA arts. WHY?? Hmmmmm.....

Why are there so many variations of YM? How could he teach so many different things to so many people??

This is not about HFYWC vs. YMWC. Why??? Because all WC comes from the same source! And if you had the slightest understanding of this source, you'd know that WC can be taught in two ways. System (SNT,CK,BG) or San Sau.

DO SOME EFFING HOMEWORK! This is why LJ was able to teach different WC to two separate groups in KooLuo. This is why he could easily teach one thing to his family and another to CWS.

This is why YM was able to teach so many different variations to his students. And how he was able to share something even more different to William Cheung.

So yes. There is a connection between TWC and HFY. But it happened waaay earlier than you think.



You are sooooo small-minded. If it were up to you and your reasoning... we'd all still be thinking the word is flat!

[Lucas]

must....resist...henry rollins joke.....

[wcextreme]

Terence,
You know where I come from there are two things you don't do and it doesn't matter who you are or where you come from. One of them is insult a person's family. First of all, that would get you into a lot of trouble, and I mean serious trouble. Terence, don't think that you are ever safe behind that keyboard of yours. Your parents should have taught you better. Unless your provocation is intended for "non-judicial" reasons, I can help you with your little problem. I even got a few friends in your area.

How far is the drive down to your little town? Makes no difference to me. I grew up in the south side of Chicago, spent a few years in Brooklyn. I've seen extreme. I know tough guys and you ain't one of them. You remind me of the little rich kid who ended up lost in the wrong neighborhood.

The other thing you don't do is talk tough without being tough. Your "lawyer talk" isn't tough at all and won't work on the street. This ain't no courtroom. I've dealt with a few people like you in my life. In person your type are about "as useful as an @$$hole on your elbow". Anyone street smart can see that. People like you fold under real pressure.

I may not be a part of the HFY family anymore, but I have no issues standing up for them. I have no problem driving down there to straighten things out for you. I got a lot of money and a lot of time. Remember my bottom line?

Take a lesson, and watch your mouth.

JP, Duende: right on! Y'all kno Robert is smiling at Terence while he tries to talk down to you guys.

Robert, stop being a hypocrite and lead by example. Start that 5h!t at home. Tell your student Terence to STFU and learn some manners. The air should start to smell better once you pull your head out.

Extreme

[chusauli]

Bob,

There is nothing you can teach me, so don't try. Maybe you should scold T instead - doesn't ettiquite start at home? And really, does my saying sh!t offend you that much? I would think you are a bit tougher than that. :confused:
All I am doing is talking facts, no assumptions or emotion here. I noticed you couldn't address any of the facts. If you don't like the facts, you should spend some time looking in the mirror.

Ned brings up a good point about the Chi Sim 'signatures' in your SLT. Since you like to talk about signatures, that video is proof you have the a$$ signature you took from Chi Sim. You are mixing Weng Chun signatures with your Wing chun. It goes to show how limited your WC knowledge is if you have take from everyone else. Yet you pawn yourself off as an authority. :rolleyes:

Speaking of videos, you know the other one I mentioned in my last post? Besides the usual personal insults and disrespect to other WC sifu, it also shows Benny handling all your of students in Chi Sau. I also noticed you wouldn't touch hands with Benny on the video. Then you said all your students should be shot. Just another sign you're WC knowledge is shaky. Maybe you should have T shot too, since he's another one of your students and he can't even fight with WC :rolleyes:
And, as per your usual behavior, at the end of the video you try to discredit and correct Benny about having no forward energy. Didn't look like he had any problems with his WC to me. You have followed this by saying you tossed Benny around in a hotel room, privately of course. Again, more attempts to discredit other WC people. See the pattern? And why didn't you toss him around in the video where others could see? Maybe because of your shaky WC background...

As far as this joke of a discussion, I have trained YM WC, and HFY WC extensively. Many other HFY members were long time practitioners of YM WC, among other lineages. I don't see these 'signatures' as you see them, except that they are both WC (DUH!). And they don't see the similarities you do either. This is from people who have strong, inside knowledge of BOTH systems. Not your hodge-podge mish-mash outsider viewpoint of WC. So why should we listen to you? What does your opinion on subject you know nothing about really matter?
The systems, training methods, and application of concepts and principals are so different it is laughable to hear you speak on them like you do. Having this discussion with you is a joke. Any connections you make is based on speculation and guessing. You have 33 years experince yet you're still looking from the outside.

Just the facts.

Jon,

Thank you for your perspective. I don't think I was quite understanding Ned's post through all the noise. And as I understand it from your paragraph above that you and Ned are talking about....

my a$$? :eek:

But all kidding aside, I have no Weng Chun signatures in my WCK. Simply look at the Double Jut and Double Tok of the Muk Yan Jong set when doing it with body structure and therein lies your answer about my a$$. I do find it a bit uncomfortable when men are checking out my a$$... women are okay!

Unga bunga bunga about Benny. He and I have long buried the hatchet. The past is where all of that belongs now. Is he not your sigung still? This is all irrelevant to this discussion.

How far did you learn Yip Man WCK? How many mainland systems have you seen and compared with Yip Man's WCK? I think you need to investigate that further and come back to discuss the signatures of Yip Man WCK vs. other WCK systems (not HFY). Let's take HFY out of this discussion and tell me if Yip Man's signatures are in all WCK. I'd prefer not to talk about HFY at all. It doesn't have relevance here, at least in discussing signatures.

I appreciate this if we can continue on a more intelligent basis and stick to the discussion on hand.

I have no animosity toward you or your group and I have been very civil and cordial throughout this discussion and would expect reciprocation. Otherwise I think there is some physical/organic/mental unbalance or Liver Yang Rising that prevents you from speaking civilly and would refer you to a local health practitioner.

Best regards,

[chusauli]

He's got a point there Robert. ALL this negative energy could have been avoided if Terence controlled his mouth and didn't resort to insults.

If anyone needs to be coached on discipline and respect, it is your student Terence. His words are by far the most disrespectful and insulting of anyone's here. As well as being full of outright lies.


You guys have it wrong. I do not control Terence, let alone anything he does/says. He is an adult and guided by his own mind. Just as I am sure Benny does not control Richard, nor does Richard control Ned, Jonathan, etc. I am sure Garrett does not control what you write here. Do we not live in the United States? This is a free country, not Communist China. Freedom of speech is a right here, not a privilege. This is a discussion board.

Okay for once I will do something for the entire world to witness:

"Terence, you have a potty mouth and you are rude, and have offended the HFY family, the Shaolin temple, internal arts, systems that believe in Qi, and others. You constantly extend your unwanted behaviour through these posts in which you express your opinion.

As your sifu, I am dismayed and urge you to reconsider your actions and method of communication. According to the HFY members here, ALL this negative energy could have been avoided if you controlled your mouth and didn't resort to insults."

I hope you find this acceptable. As for me, I simply ignore stupid posts and arguments. This country, to which I immigrated to, was to escape Communist persecution. I have no desire to control anyone's rights. Terence has long had disagreements with Hendrik, who is one of my closest friends, but they have to hash that out between them. Terence also does not believe in Qi or internal Qi flow, and you know I am an acupuncturist and herbalist by trade, and certainly believe in that. It matters not if he believes in it or not, as I know my practice is built upon harmonizing people's qi.

BTW, since he has went off to Red and Black Checkered Flag WCK, which he calls the original WCK, he has long left me and become the US Representative of RBCFWCK.

I hope you all find this acceptable.

[chusauli]

JP, Duende: right on! Y'all kno Robert is smiling at Terence while he tries to talk down to you guys.

Robert, stop being a hypocrite and lead by example. Start that 5h!t at home. Tell your student Terence to STFU and learn some manners. The air should start to smell better once you pull your head out.

Extreme

Dear Extreme,

First of all, what is your real name? You know, I prefer to use real names.

Please do not think I smile at Terence when he talks down to anyone. You are making assumptions, I do not think this is proper for you to speak for me.

Thank you.

[anerlich]

Do we not live in the United States?

No, we do not.

It isn't fair to expect Robert to discipline Terence. It's like asking your older brother or your Dad to resolve your problems with the kid down the street. Even more so if the kid down the street has obvious, er, challenges, as is the case here.

T doesn't really have a potty mouth. His major problem is that he suffers from the delusion that his ideas are original, interesting, important, and worth communicating.

[Bo_toxic]

Original posted by wcextreme
Terence,
You know where I come from there are two things you don't do and it doesn't matter who you are or where you come from. One of them is insult a person's family. First of all, that would get you into a lot of trouble, and I mean serious trouble. Terence, don't think that you are ever safe behind that keyboard of yours. Your parents should have taught you better. Unless your provocation is intended for "non-judicial" reasons, I can help you with your little problem. I even got a few friends in your area.

How far is the drive down to your little town? Makes no difference to me. I grew up in the south side of Chicago, spent a few years in Brooklyn. I've seen extreme. I know tough guys and you ain't one of them. You remind me of the little rich kid who ended up lost in the wrong neighborhood.

The other thing you don't do is talk tough without being tough. Your "lawyer talk" isn't tough at all and won't work on the street. This ain't no courtroom. I've dealt with a few people like you in my life. In person your type are about "as useful as an @$$hole on your elbow". Anyone street smart can see that. People like you fold under real pressure.

I may not be a part of the HFY family anymore, but I have no issues standing up for them. I have no problem driving down there to straighten things out for you. I got a lot of money and a lot of time. Remember my bottom line?

Take a lesson, and watch your mouth.

JP, Duende: right on! Y'all kno Robert is smiling at Terence while he tries to talk down to you guys.

Robert, stop being a hypocrite and lead by example. Start that 5h!t at home. Tell your student Terence to STFU and learn some manners. The air should start to smell better once you pull your head out.
wcextreme,
Because Terence and Robert Chu have gotten away with their insults and internet bs directed towards so many different kung fu families for so long they feel there are no consequences but I really understand where you are coming from. I do agree with many of the points you are saying about Terence someone of his character who has been trash talking so many kung fu families with his derogatory comments especially William Cheung and HFY. I am not surprised about how you feel at this moment considering that Terence and Robert are the ones that create and spread so many internet rumors for what seems to be fun for them and they have been doing it for a very long time.

So far they have gotten away with it because no one has gone after them but their bad karma is long over due and I don't believe they can get away from this karma because that negative energy will trigger somebody somehow to go after them. Terence for all his talk and specifically Robert since he has a long history insulting so many people in his life especially Moy Yat I am positive one of these days people will teach Terence and Robert both a real lesson. Because I believe that karma over due is karma that can't be escaped.

Robert don't you think it is too late for you to disown Terence no one here cares for you little sarcasm. It is too late when your karma is connected and hinged together and the nature of karma will return to both of you and not just Terence.

[t_niehoff]

Instead of telling me what a bastid I am (not that I'd disagree with you on that point), why don't you guys stop whining about "negative energy" and "insults" and the like and just get around to providing EVIDENCE to support HFY claims? THAT would end any and all discussions.

SHOW the world ONE HFY practitioner -- out of the alleged army of HFY practitioners -- that exists and predates Garrett.

EXPLAIN to the world why Yip Man signatures created and adopted by Yip in the early to mid 1900s are throughout HFY which claims to be the oldest, original, and unchanged branch of WCK.

Just do those two things and you will stifle any criticism, including mine. But we all know that you can't. You have nothing to support HFY claims.

And because you can't, one inescapable conclusion follows. You may not like that conclusion, you may find that conclusion "insulting", you may not want to believe it, and so on, but it is the only reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

So all you can do is talk about what a bastid I am in the hope that this will distract people. "He hates HFY", "he has negative energy", "he insults us", etc. Those are the appeals of liitle children --"MOM, Terence called me a name, make him stop." Grow up. So what if someone insults you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[CFT]

Terence, I think you must have missed Alex's (duende) post:


Btw... you keep on asking for a HFY practitioner before my Sifu. If you took the time to actually research before you made accusations you know that my Sifu's Sije Ms. Lung actually came to visit SF. awhile back. She is an artist, and my Sifu met with her, Lilly Lau (SF Eagle Claw Master), and Dr. Wu Mo (a China town antique art dealer in SF)

[chusauli]

wcextreme,
Because Terence and Robert Chu have gotten away with their insults and internet bs directed towards so many different kung fu families for so long they feel there are no consequences but I really understand where you are coming from. I do agree with many of the points you are saying about Terence someone of his character who has been trash talking so many kung fu families with his derogatory comments especially William Cheung and HFY. I am not surprised about how you feel at this moment considering that Terence and Robert are the ones that create and spread so many internet rumors for what seems to be fun for them and they have been doing it for a very long time.

So far they have gotten away with it because no one has gone after them but their bad karma is long over due and I don't believe they can get away from this karma because that negative energy will trigger somebody somehow to go after them. Terence for all his talk and specifically Robert since he has a long history insulting so many people in his life especially Moy Yat I am positive one of these days people will teach Terence and Robert both a real lesson. Because I believe that karma over due is karma that can't be escaped.

Robert don't you think it is too late for you to disown Terence no one here cares for you little sarcasm. It is too late when your karma is connected and hinged together and the nature of karma will return to both of you and not just Terence.


Bo Toxic,

What is your real name?

Your attitude is quite toxic and I know I am dealing with quite a few mentally unbalanced individuals here. Perhaps some counseling will help.

Karma is action; it hasn't quite the shallow and superficiality that you speak of.

All of this banter is attachment; and none that can allow some of you the ability to see.

I didn't disown anyone. There is no one to own or disown, I do not own anyone. Causes and conditions create karma. Everything is “like a dream, illusion, bubble, or shadow, like the dew or lightning.”

Get away with anything? There is nothing to get away from.

Just because you rehash stories, doesn't mean you really know what is behind them.

Master Hsuan Hua said, "Medicine that is bitter is good for you. Words hard against the ear is good for you." Master Hsuan Hua also said that "The very good in this world balance out the very bad." Meaning it all harmonizes and balances. This is the Middle Way.

You should know, "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7

Terence for all his alleged shortcomings is real honest. Sure he riles people up, tells them they're full of it, expresses his feelings in a very vocal way, goes overboard of his criticisms of qi, practicality, functionality, internal stuff - but he's real. He may not be politically correct, and I may not agree with him all the time, either. But he does provide all with a perspective to see - sort of a mirror to look at. Its that many people's attachments and ego get in the way of seeing things. You guys think certain people in WCK are saints? You put them up on pedestals? Think your stuff is real practical? Think internal mechanics are practical? Think your WCK is real original? Think the 5000 years of Chinese MA is all wisdom? He'll open your eyes... that is suchness. He's no sage, but neither does he put himself up to be.

All of this reminds me of a story, "A Buddhist master had a terrible attendant. He always woke late, did not prepare his master's meals, was late in helping him with his lectures, and the like. When travelling from one place to another, other monks saw how terrible this attendant was. They implored the master to get a new attendant. The master was puzzled and answered, "If I get rid of him, who will teach me patience?""

Perhaps my world view runs contrary to many others'. Even all of this is BS. But let's look at the the discussion of YM signatures in WCK, has that gone away?

[TenTigers]

I am not sure if this has any relevance to the discussion or not, but when I was in Malaysia, I visted a Hung Fa Yee Temple. Besides calling itself Hung Fa Yee, it also said it was known as Green Cloud Temple as well. The plaque also stated that it was a place where revolutionaries against the Ching would gather.

This can either add credibility to HFY's origins, or perhaps whomever started HFY might have also travelled to Malaysia and been inspired by the Temple.
Chicken or the Egg?